288 - Pure Desire Foundations: Clinically Informed

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy day to you, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 288 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It takes a little time sometimes to turn the Titanic around is. It takes a little time sometimes there's more to the song. That's about all I remember.

Honestly, I don't think any of my friends are going to shame me for not knowing what that is.

How about this one? Baby, baby, I'm taken with the notion to love you with something something notion, vaguely. Those are two classic Amy Grant songs. When she crossed over Sad Day, it was in the early 90s from Christian music into secular music. And if you were a young adult or a teen in those years, that was a very, very big deal because that was like the first time that ever happened.

And then she got married to Vince Gill, who, if you were a country fan, you were like, divorce.

It was very scandalous.

Very scandalous. Well, that's not what our episode is about today. We are in week two of our Pure Desire Foundations series. And last week we looked at how we are biblically based. This week we are looking at the clinically informed aspect to our ministry. And we had Robert Vandermeer on with us, who's one of our speakers, but is a clinician at Pure Desire who does this clinical piece so well to talk about this aspect. The clinically informed foundation of Pure Desire.

Yeah. And I think when you start talking about being clinically informed, for some people, it may feel like that it's like we're leaving the Christianity safe realm and leaving it behind to go into something secular and just like Amy Grant did. But I think what we really try to talk through and Amy Grant, I don't believe. Did you love Amy Grant?

You're fine.

That was the feel that people had back then. And I think some people feel that way about, like, oh, pure desire counseling, like, was that biblically based or, you know, a group? How come you don't just, you know, repent and read the word of God? So how do we deal with that dynamic that we do incorporate a lot of other tools into our process? What does that look like? What does it mean? And I think today's conversation was really meant to underscore that there is a way we can do those things while still staying faithful to the word of God and to our true foundations in Scripture and in Christ. And I hope that that came out in the conversation because I thought it was really a lot of fun. And I think for many that feel that tension, even if they haven't known how to say it, I think today's conversation will just really help a lot.

Yeah. And before we get into the episode, this feels like a really good time to talk about it. That we have a counseling program with trained and equipped and certified Pure Desire clinicians that handle both the biblically based aspect and the clinically informed approach together so well. Let's just tell people a little bit about the counseling program here at Pure Desire.

Yeah. Our clinicians are people who have been trained both as pastors and as counselors. And that's very unique because they're bringing that perspective of the word of God and how to implement these tools and help people understand their wounds, trauma, how they dealt with pain, what's going on in their brain. I remember when I was first considering counseling 12 years ago, that was my question of, like, why do I need counseling? And I remember my friend saying to me, you know, you've tried to fix this by yourself for, at that point, 15 years. Don't you owe it to yourself to let an expert in the field, someone who is an expert in addiction recovery and in the word of God, look into your life and tell you what you need most and what the process of recovery looks like? And so for me, that was really key of humbling myself to come under a process to say, okay, I. I need to learn what I don't know. I need to see what I don't see so that I can grow in ways that right now I can't grow. And I think that's what the counseling process is all about. It's not just a couple of sessions here or there or come when you want. It's a very defined program that takes place for an individual or a couple over the course of a year. And we have found for people that follow that process, 95% of them see a significant life change because of that year long journey. And so I can't recommend it highly enough. If you're in a place where your addiction issues have caused a significant disturbance in your marriage, or you find that despite your best efforts, or maybe you're even doing group and you feel like I'm just stuck in a certain area. And maybe you're stuck in a behavior or stuck in some pain or some woundedness, that's really when it's clear that counseling would be a valuable, vital part of your journey.

Yep, absolutely. So if you are interested in more information or want to start the Pure Desire Counseling program, just go to PureDesire.org counseling and with that, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms and write us a review. It helps other people find the show. You can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And this full episode will be up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And with that, here is week two of our Pure Desire foundation series with Robert Vandermeer discussing the clinically informed element of our approach to recovery and healing. Robert Vandermeer, thanks for being back, man. Appreciate it. Glad to have you with us.

It's a pleasure, as always.

Next time, say it a little bit more convincing, if you could. That'd be great.

We won't take it personally.

It's great to be here.

There we go.

There we go. Yep. And now we're. I wish we could show people the magic of post production, but we're gonna leave that in there. Okay. So we are in week two of our Pure Desire Foundations series. And this is a series that we're really focusing on what Pure Desire as a whole is built on, really our approach, our philosophy, what's important to us and what's at the core. And, you know, as you heard last week, we are biblically based. Everything we do is founded on scripture. But even in one of the questions that we got to in that episode talks about really what we're focusing on today, which is we are also clinically informed. This is very central to the approach that we take with the practices and the tools that we use. And so, Bob, as one of our clinicians, you're someone who literally uses the clinically informed part every single day of your job. And so we wanted to leverage your experience and expertise. And so as we get into that, let's just start with we are a ministry that does these two things together. Biblically based and clinically informed, meaning we are founded on scripture for sure, which I think people understand that part. But when we say clinically informed, that can seem kind of fuzzy. So what does that mean? And why is that such a central piece to our approach to healing from recovery and betrayal?

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's interesting both of those terms biblically and clinically there. We think of them as definite terms like biblically based is like this definite black or white. This is how it is. And I think clinical work, like clinically informed, we can also sometimes look at it that way. And I think really for both of them, there's still areas, areas for how we interpret and apply the stuff that comes out of that. So just to say that, that, I mean, even clinically informed, like there's different ways that people take the research and the data that comes from that research and apply it to what they're doing. But I think in general, like the clinically informed part for us forms a research based approach that says this is what brain science. We're going to get in that a little bit later in the podcast. But this is what brain science tells us. This is what we've learned about dealing with trauma. Like this is things that we've seen work within group settings. And so it's research based. It comes out of years and years of interaction with clients in an area. So clinical work, I mean, when we're talking about it, we're talking about working within addiction and trauma kind of side of things. Not everybody that works in mental health would refer to the work they're doing as clinically informed or clinical work. And so I think for us, we're talking about addiction, talking about trauma, and we're talking about brain science.

Yeah. You know, when I think about us putting those two terms together, to me it's kind of the model of what a good sermon should be. That if we go to church and hear a good sermon, it should be someone unpacking the eternal, timeless truth of the word of God and then helping us apply in practical ways that eternal, timeless word of God to our everyday lives. And it needs to be consistent with what was unpacked in the truth. But very often in a sermon, those practical next steps aren't a verse word for word out of the Bible. It's more practically based about how we treat our spouses or what we might do at work the next day or the kind of social media involvement we might have. It's how do we interpret and use what we know to be true. And I think that's what we're doing in our counseling sessions and in groups is we're trying to take people to the eternal word of God and who he's made them to be and how to live free of sin and shame and all the stuff that comes with that. But then how we apply that, it's many times methodology or application that comes out of a clinical world where research has been done where people are using. I was thinking of work we've done lately with Dr. Barbara Steffens and Appsats and a lot of what they're learning about betrayal trauma isn't just like Dr. Steffens ideas it's actually based on a lot of research they've done in surveying clients and people going through affairs or discovery of pornography in the marriage, what's happening to them on emotional level, and doing really in depth surveys and then basing their approach and research off of those findings. And so we learn from groups like that and we understand, well, here's methods and ways that we can apply these great truths of Scripture into people's lives. And the other thing I'd say with it, it's to quote Our founder, Dr. Ted Roberts, says all the time about the clinical side that you've got to chew up the meat and spit out the bones. That when we say we're clinically informed, we don't just wholesale digest everything that comes to us because it has to go through that biblical grid. It has to fit into the word of God and how we see, you know, our worldview. And so that means there are some pieces we go, ah, that's, you know, that's coming from a foundation that's different than ours. So we can't just accept all of it, but there's some real meat here that does help us. So there is. There's always a discerning process and that's how the two pieces then have to fit. That it has to be both, not one or the other.

Yeah. The thing that comes to mind with this question is just the clinical side is stuff, in my experience, that's experiential. It takes what we know to be true, uses tools to help me experience the reality of those truths. So whether that's the love I have for my spouse or the love that she has for me, or the love of God to me, or the trauma and the impact it's had in my life, I think it's something that allows us to experience the reality in new, in fresh ways. And for me, that's at least helped me, I guess, take that pill. Because at the beginning, when you are so biblically based, it can be difficult to hear clinically informed and be accepting of that. And so I think that that experiential side, thinking of even how we do communion, that's an experiential activity that we do that's based on a reality we see in Scripture. And so the tools and practices we have as a part of our clinical work and even our groups is for that purpose, is to take the reality of God's love for us, the ability that he's given us to heal in community through his power in an experiential way.

Yeah. What you're saying, Nick, about the sermon. I mean, I've compared for myself, like me approaching the Bible in preparation for a sermon very similar to what I do in a counseling session, where basically it's like an inductive Bible study. Right? The inductive Bible study. A version of that is like observation, interpretation, correlation, application, that we would observe a passage, like spend time just observing it, sitting with it, hearing what it has to say, and then we would interpret it based off of a hermeneutic that is a historical grammatical interpretation. So we're going to observe it and then we're going to interpret what's there based off of the history, you know, of maybe what's happening in that text or in the. In the Bible period or in the history of Israel. Right. We would interpret it and then we would connect it with what's happening in life. And then we would say, like, okay, let's apply it this way and try to create maybe a little bit of change. And I think we do that with the way we approach the Bible. And I think it's very similar to what we do with clinical work that the research is helping us to observe what's happening with a client, and the research is also helping us to interpret that, to interpret their trauma, to interpret their history in those same terms of what's happening. And then we're connecting that, like, we're grabbing that stuff and we're connecting it with what's happening in their life right now. And then we're coming up with a plan on what to do. So I think those two are very. Are very similar. I love that analogy. And for me, that definitely connects with the clinical side of what I do.

So depending on how you grew up and some of your family of origin, maybe the kind of church you grew up in, I think especially for those who are listening that grew up in a more fundamentalist or conservative or even just kind of a tried and true evangelical church, Clinical and biblical can almost feel like two different ends of a spectrum, and it's hard to mesh those two. And so how do we do that at Pure Desire? How do we combine these two in our ministry in a way that's still true to Scripture, but effective in the counseling and groups process?

Yeah, I think we had the opportunity to present in 2022 at the ITAP Symposium, and one of the things that we talked about is how at the core of, like, this biblical message is identity and relationship. And I think that we see both of those in scripture and in clinical work, you know, when we Talk about relationship being at the core of the Bible and like the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross being about the restoration of relationship between us and God and between all of humanity. Like, that's the same kind of language that that is being used in the clinical world, that the opposite of addiction is connection. Right. And actually that that phrase that was coined, the whole phrase is the opposite of addiction, is human connection. And so in both, both, I think the biblical and the clinical world, the goals are the same, that we can have a renewed sense of identity. And that that renewed sense of identity really only has a place or is best seen and experienced in the context of relationships. And so I think helping those things be reconciled and see the mesh is to say it's about the same thing. It's all about identity and relationship and being able to live more in the present with that stuff and with our lives.

Yeah, you know, one of the things I often. Because I get this question a lot from, you know, from friends and even from people I've met through the work here at Pure Desire, the way that I've said it is we just use clinical tools to apply the truth of God's word to our lives. And, you know, one of the things that I tend to go back to, and I've said this before on some episodes, I think even in this series, I've said it already, that if you go back to the beginning, when God created Adam and Eve and created all of humanity in his own image, like God set our brains up a very specific way. And what science is showing us now is that when someone is impacted by betrayal, trauma, or has sexual brokenness or sexual addiction, that there are things that happen to the brain, there are things that happen to the body that are already like. It's basically things that are happening to God's initial design of our body. And so I think that that's one of the arguments that I. One of the angles I take when making an argument for the combination of these two. Because God designed our brains to release dopamine and to feel pleasure and to repeat behaviors that are good for us and are honoring to him. Yet when our brain as to use language from Dr. Ted, when our brain gets hijacked by sexual addiction, and then that dopamine is now working against us, and now we're doing these patterns that are negative and so hurtful. It's just. It's taking God's original design and system and using it for purposes that are not healthy for us. And so I think the clinical tools help us to identify that that's what's going on, that it's just a misuse of God's original design of our brains and what happens to our body and finding practical ways to bring God's healing to those things. And I think that that's why it's such a powerful thing when you pair this biblically based approach with the clinically informed, because it's really understanding God's design and his Word, but then also identifying the ways that our brain and our body have been hijacked and finding tools to bring that healing God wanted in the first place.

Yeah, I think the common ground I find is in the idea that we're unpacking principles here. And I think of when I've heard Andy Stanley preach on principles, and he says, you know, principles are tr, whether we believe them to be true or not, and we can either ignore them to our detriment or leverage them to our benefit. And he always brings up that principles are true because it's how God made the world to work and how God designed things. And you can find those principles being unpacked in the Bible. But you also see as Bob's bringing up with relationships, connection, some of those same principles are being brought up in the way clinical work is done. And so we're just trying to find other ways of working with the same principles to bring people to change and transformation. But I think people are challenged because they see both, like clinical work or the Bible as two different philosophies. And it's saying, well, we're choosing one philosophy or the other. It's like, well, yeah, if that's the comparison, we do have to be very careful. But we've chosen our philosophy as a biblical worldview. But then within that philosophy, we're talking about applying principles. And I think there are a lot of disciplines we then can go to and learn from how to apply these principles in a way that's consistent with the way, like you said, God made us to work and designed the world to work.

Yeah, I think I've told this story before and I tell the whole story, but basically I have a friend that I've made. And when I met him in our first few days of getting to know each other and he found out that what Rebecca and I do and find out that we're Christian, he said, oh, so you guys probably don't believe in dinosaurs. And I think that represented right, this kind of this way that, like Christianity and science are in opposition to each other. And I love what both of you are saying, because, like, we can observe nature and we can see, like, how incredible it is, and even if we don't have a faith, perspective, or tradition that. Or that we're a part of, like, we can still see that and still see that it's beautiful. And I don't think that science and the Bible are at odds with each other. I mean, there's some things, sure, whatever, but. But in general, like, we have this approach that science, like, is opposed to, and, like, we're Christian, but we don't believe in science. And clinical findings, that represents science, so we have to keep those away from each other. But I think all we're doing is observing the principles that are there. I mean, that's literally what science is, right? Is just observing. Yeah. So I think that the old thought that these two things are, like, diametrically opposed is. It's not helpful to us.

Well, I think that illustration of the dinosaur is really appropriate because if. If someone doesn't believe in dinosaurs, but then they go out to a dig site and there's this humongous dinosaur bone that there is no other way to explain, they're going to. They're going to have to do something to reconcile their belief with what they've just discovered and whether it's in the Bible or not. And I know we could argue about is the Leviathan or all that are dinosaurs, but most people would say dinosaurs aren't in the Bible. And yet we believe in dinosaurs because we've observed something. And I think the same process is happening in learning from clinical methods that there are things that are discovered, that it's like, well, there's a truth here. And how then does this truth pair what we already know to be true at a deeper level from the Bible?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Every time, Bob, you said science, it made me think of Nacho Libre. Every time I was like, you know, I believe in science. Anyways, let's get into some of that science stuff.

Okay. I think that Nacho Libre voice.

Thank you. Thank you. I need to watch that movie again. That's gonna be a beautiful day when my sons can watch that with me. All right, so part of this being clinically informed, and you've mentioned it a little bit at the top, is that we gather insight from brain science. Right. Okay. So what role does neuroscience or neurobiology play into both our recovery resources and materials, but then also what you do in the clinical program?

I think the biggest one is. Well, it plays a huge role, but I think the biggest one is that we understand that this is not just a moral issue. That this isn't just a moral decision that we see presented, you know, in New Testament, like in James or like where. And so I think historically we would see these types of things as stop doing it. It's a moral issue. Just try harder.

Right.

And what neuroscience, neurobiology, neurochemistry tells us is that there's more than just that going on. And so I think it helps us to create expectations for people that are in recovery that are maybe helpful and healthy versus expectations of come down during a church service, let us pray for you, and then just never do it again. And so it's not justifying their behavior, it's not making room for them to continue living in that lifestyle. But it is to say that there's more going, going on than just a decision. And so what that does is it says, all right, great, then let's create a process that, where we're helping people walk from living in this addiction to living in a lifestyle that they were created for and the expectation of that timeline, then it's not like an immediate come down and get prayed for. It's let's work through some steps. And so I think that the neuroscience and neurobiology, neurochemistry plays a huge role and I would say, at least boiled down to what are our expectations.

Yeah, it always makes me think of Jesus quoting the greatest commandment of love, the Lord your God, with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. And those aren't like four separate beings. Those are four dynamics of the one whole person that we are. And it's saying, love God with everything, with all these different parts of you. And so if we look at recovery, we want to deal with all the parts. So yes, there is a spiritual side. There is a moral side of confession and repentance and choosing what is right and glorifying God. And that might be what we'd call the heart or the soul piece, but there is also a body component. There's a strength component. So if someone came to us with a severe eating issue, we wouldn't just look at the morality of their eating choices, because we broadly accept, even in the church, that there are physical functions going on, like cravings and how the body turns excess sugar into fat and stores it. And if it's not burned, it's going to accumulate. Like, we know these things to be true. And so there have to be in awareness of that changes in habits and diet. Well, we're basically saying the same thing when we incorporate Neurobiology and neurochemistry to say when someone is trapped in patterns of unwanted sexual behavior, there are things actually physically happening in the brain that dictate this behavior in their life. And if we don't acknowledge them and take them seriously, then we can do all kinds of work in this spiritual sphere to help them. And yet they'll have incredible unhealth because there's been nothing to address the chemistry of all the neurons that are firing and all the chemicals that are dumped in in someone's sexual release. And that we know that neurobiologically that's as powerful a hit as if someone's on cocaine, that we know these things to be true about the brain. So there are work, things we do to not only renew the mind spiritually, but to renew the mind physically so that there can be long term health.

Yeah, I was thinking of some of the specific roles that it plays because you guys have already both said that it's so important. And the first is that it diminishes shame. It's not just this, I'm a bad person, this is a moral problem. I'm not Christian enough, I don't love God enough. It's actually telling us like, no, no, no, there's something going on in your brain biologically. And so I think that diminishes shame. And then the second thing is that it helps us make sense of our decisions. What's led us to this point? What are things from our past that have helped really craft this way of escaping pain in life? And then the third is it points us in the right direction for actual healing, where it's not just try harder, read your Bible more or make sure you go get counseling or block your phone, get a dumb phone, whatever. Those are all things that can be super helpful. But if you know there's a problem in your brain, then that's where you go. If you know that that's where the center is of the issue, then you know where to fight this battle. And so I think those are just three of the practical ways that I see this playing out and why it's so important. This neuroscience piece.

Yeah, shame reduction is huge. Right. I mean, being able to use language and ideas that help people to reduce shame, to be able to even come in and ask for help. Right. In Christian terms, we would say, like at the foot of the cross. Like, we're just saying, like, all that represents is, hey, man, I need. Yep.

And.

And shame reduction is huge for that. Yeah, Nick, and the food analogy that you used for Example, like, we could use the word gluttony for whatever's going on, but man, there's so much shame like packed into that word. And. But if we understand that this is what's going on for someone that has, that is dealing with that as maybe as a coping mechanism, well then like using the word gluttony kind of isn't helpful. Being able to explain what's going on for them really helps. And yeah, I think that shame reduction is a huge component.

Yeah. And Bob, we know that God can use counseling of all kinds and varieties. And there's probably a lot of listeners that have received real healing from counseling outside of Pure Desire. We're thankful for that. But at the same time, I'm guessing there's a lot of people listening who've gone to a pastor or a local counselor for issues of unwanted sexual behavior and they're like, counseling's no good. Counseling didn't help me. So how would you describe to that person, maybe in particular, how does our approach, because of this clinically informed piece in the brain science, how does our counseling approach at Pure Desire differ from what someone may have encountered in a more traditional church based counseling, pastoral counseling environment?

Yeah, I think we've been saying stuff that all kind of answers this question. Like we in having a clinically informed approach, then our expectations are different. And we're also using language in that approach that helps to reduce shame. And so both of those then fit into like, okay, this is what our program is. There are clear steps, right? So like in this clinically informed way that here's the expectations, here are the steps. And so my expectations for, you know, someone at step one is not that they're going to look like they would at step 24. And I use those numbers because in our clinical program there's 24 sessions. And so there's times where somebody, you know, there'll be three sessions into our program. And you can feel the expectations that they have for themselves are ones that in large have been created by their Christian culture and maybe by some biblical counseling they've had in the past. And they feel like, well, I'm here, like right now, but I should be over here at step 24 already. And I'll say, hey, listen, you're doing exactly what you should be doing. Like at our third session, we have 21 more sessions after today. But where you are today is exactly where is appropriate for this stage in your process. And so I think that maybe the difference is that because we have these expectations, we do have a Timeframe. We do have clear goals and steps and tools that we're working towards and through. And it helps people just to see. Okay, no, I'm like, I know that that's where I want to be at session 24, but I can't shortcut the next 21 sessions to get there. There's time and there's a process and that helps to even understand passages like being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Right. There's a metamorphosis that's taking place, and that metamorphosis does not take place overnight.

Yeah.

I think as I'm answering this question, I want to be careful because I know that there are pastors and people who do biblical counseling that are listening to this. And just to understand that that is super important. That is such an important piece to the church and to community and shepherding and discipleship. I think one of the things that I have seen in this context is when there is biblical counseling or a faith based counselor, there can be situations where an understanding of trauma or addiction, neurochemistry, how all of that impacts. And I think that if we don't have that understanding, sometimes we find solutions that make sense biblically, but practically make things much worse. We've had conversations with Sheila Rae Gregoire and others on the podcast that talk about books that have taken a stance of, well, if the wife would just have more sex with the husband, then this wouldn't be an issue. And like that. Yeah. Excuse you. And I think that that's one of one example where it plays out, where it actually does far more damage than it does actual help. Now should. Is sex between a man and a woman in marriage God's design? Yes. Is that something that does help the health of relationship? Yes. But in this context of addiction and betrayal, is that what the couple needs right now? Oftentimes at the beginning, the answer is no. No. Like hard no. And kind of in addition to that, one of the things that I've seen is the church. And this has been my experience, personal experience in the church, both as a pastor and someone who's been in church, you know, since I was a kid, there is sort of this, like, well, let's fix this quickly. Let's just stamp a Bible verse on it or give you some, you know, spiritual disciplines to help you, you know, get stronger and restore. And what I found is there's a lack of awareness, and this is my experience that biblical counseling can have where we don't really give this the time it needs to actually heal and improve where it's like, well, let's meet for six weeks and see where you guys are at. Where a clinical approach, it's like you have 24 sessions. This is a 12 month thing where it's going to take you a year to get this stuff. And so I think that there's. The word I would honestly use is just there's a patience in the approach of clinical work that I think if more counselors in the church were willing to adopt a patient approach in that way and also educating themselves on trauma and addiction, that would just even bolster more the counseling they give.

Yeah, I can speak to my experience of what I brought into that counseling environment 12 years ago when I did Pure desire counseling. Because I had come out of that church environment. And by the way, if anyone listening is hesitant about counseling, I mean, I'm right there with you. I didn't think I needed it, I didn't want it. In my church upbringing, counseling was like an admission of failure or even saying Jesus wasn't enough, so I have to go somewhere else. And so I was bringing all that baggage with me. And sometimes people ask, why did you go? Honestly, I started counseling to make my wife happy. So I've told people that I'm the director of Pure Desire today because I went to counseling to make my wife happy. That's the only reason I started. And then God used a whole lot more after that. But what I brought into that counseling journey was I was looking for just to fix the problem. And so when Dr. Ted and Tyler and others in my counseling wanted to start going into family of origin and parents, I was like, no, we don't need that. Just fix this problem. They kept saying, no, this is how we're going to fix the problem. Because the problem is the outcome of a whole lot of other stuff. And so making those connections to my past, to my trauma, to my ways of seeing myself was a new thing for me. And the other thing I think I expected was basically what we would call talk therapy, that I was going to talk it out with a therapist a couple times a month. I was going to go home and basically try harder not to do the bad behaviors. And over the course of a year, that would fix me. And so at the end of the first session, when Dr. Ted pulls out this notepad and he writes down eight things I have to do, like books to read and homework assignments and groups to join. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't you know how busy I am? And he's like, yeah, that's Part of the problem. And if you think you can just fix this by talking to me, you're crazy. And he probably said that because Ted has a tendency to call people crazy in their addiction. Yeah. And I'm like, man, that's a lot of work. And yet it was that commitment to work to my own process, to my own willingness to face the pain and dig in and be honest with myself and others, that I think was transformational. I could have sat in the office and talked to someone for a year and probably experienced very little change, because talk itself doesn't change and renew the mind the way all those assignments and the things I had to engage in ultimately really did.

Yeah. I think all three of us, prior to our experience as counselees at Peer Desire or prior to our experience here, all three of us sat with people in a pastoral role and gave them counsel. And I know that some of the counsel I gave was not clinically informed and was really outside of my wheelhouse. And so there's a little bit of the old way of thinking, I think, that says that the pastor should know everything and should be able to counsel on everything. And that's not. I mean, that's not fair to you as a pastor. So I do want to say, by no means am I trying to throw pastors under the bus for pastoral counseling. I think there's been an unfair expectation on pastors to say, you should know everything, and you should be the final stop for everyone that has a problem, and that's just not fair to you. That puts you into a really unfair position. And so think for. For pastors to have the freedom to say, you know what? I don't know the answer to this, but let's try and find out together, or let's try to find a resource of someone that can help. I know for me as a dad, I want to be like the coach and the teacher and the final authority on everything for my kids. But, man, I'm just bottlenecking the experience for my kids. If I do that.

Yeah.

Instead I should find a good coach. Instead, I should find a good teacher. Right. Instead of trying to do that all myself.

Yeah. What came to mind, as you said that Bob was sometimes the best leadership is referring out. And I know I could have used that definitely in my pastoring, for sure. Okay, so. And this question is really in the same kind of vein. What if someone's experienced biblical counseling that's been super helpful, and when they enter into a situation that has more clinically informed aspects, has a reaction to that how do you help people see the value in the clinical aspect?

Yeah, I think to help them see how it lines up with their foundations and their values and their priorities, that it's not something other than. I think when you step into a clinical environment, you're going to be pushed into relationship encouraged maybe is a better word, into relationship, right into recovery groups, into checking in with people, into accountability, into vulnerability. You're going to be encouraged into a lot of that. And sometimes in even effective biblical counseling, it's more about like you and Jesus and it's more about like a one time confession as opposed to a lifestyle of living in the light. And so I think one of the big things to help them see value in it is to see, hey, this clinical work is still, it's about the opposite of isolation. And even in our Christian world, when we've experienced some growth or some change, if we try to do that and stay in isolation, then we're going to have like, we're going to always hit a ceiling that limit of what can we do on our own. And so I think that in the in clinical work that what you'll encounter is even more relationship and less isolation. It's not just about you and Jesus alone in your prayer closet. Like, it has to be about more than that. Otherwise, like, I don't know, I don't think that relationship would be such an important thing through narrative in the New Testament. What we see in acts, I mean, it would all be about just you and Jesus and that's all you need. I think the clinical part is no relationship's important and isolation is going to kill you.

And I think part of this question, Bob, is that there is a realm of counseling called biblical counseling. That doesn't just mean it's counseling that's biblical. It's actually kind of defined by certain voices and authors in an approach that, that does more or less say you don't need to use anything other than the Bible to counsel people. And I think that's a viewpoint that I respect. And I feel like, hey, if that has worked for you, great, I appreciate the deep respect it has for the power of the Word of God. But if someone is really entrenched in that viewpoint, I think part of it is just staying humble in your relationship with them that you may not be able to change their viewpoint because you're asking them to let go of a way they see counseling in general. It's almost like if someone says, I prefer Coke and you're like, no, I prefer Pepsi and let me Tell you why Pepsi is better, and I want you to prefer Pepsi with me. It's like, if they have a taste for that, they're just not going to let go of it. And biblical counseling, I think, has some of that rootedness in how a person was trained. Because I hear this a lot from people in churches that say, well, my church only does biblical counseling. And I just say, I appreciate that, but I think you'll have to be very respectful in your approach because it's unlikely that they're going to change from that foundation. They've been schooled in a certain way. That's their approach. I look for ways that we can build bridges to say, how could a pure desire approach with our groups and counseling be congruent with the biblical counseling that your church is doing? Because if you start to get into which one's better or it's either or it's like Coke or you're going to have a losing battle there. But if you look to build bridges for how does this connect, then I think there's some opportunity for dialogue and conversation about how within that church both might have a role to play.

I think I totally agree with what you're saying, Nick. And I think the idea is if maybe in our biblical counseling, we've seen this as we get into these pages and like, this is all we need that's in here, as opposed to saying that we get into these pages and this becomes like an open door. Like, we take the stuff that's in here and we take that out into relationship. And so I think it's like, okay, how do we build the bridge? The bridge is like, no, the stuff that's in here is great. The stuff that's in here is life giving. I mean, like, all of the ideas that we have about the Bible, of its importance and origin, all this is important. But then we take this and we bring this into a different maybe way that we've been applying it. We don't throw it out, but we're saying, let's take this and let's use it in a way that maybe isn't as isolated.

Yeah. And I mean, again, I think to what I said earlier, I think that these clinical tools and practices and approach that we take uses those tools to take God's word into places that maybe we've never known how to do that before in a way where it's like, oh, this is impacting me afresh in a new way, in a way that I didn't know was possible. And I think to answer the Question. I think one of the things I found that's been so helpful is just to share my experience. To your point, Nick, about Coke or Pepsi? Which? Coke. All the way. 100%. I'll fist fight. Oh, really? Pepsi. Really? Okay, this is great. This is good. Something like that. Like, for me, I'm not gonna convince Bob that Coke is better than Pepsi, but I can describe my experience with it and it's similar. We're just gonna get off the Coke or Pepsi thing. Cause that could get out of hand. But I think with using certain tools or being in therapy or having these clinical practices, if I share how they've impacted me personally, that's something people can relate to. Like, oh, I've been through a situation like that too. And it's interesting to hear how using the three circles or the relapse prevention plan can be so helpful to bring about the change in my life. I want to. And so I think that's one of the easiest ways, and I think of an author, Paul Young, has said this before. I heard this in an interview. That story and narrative has a way of sneaking in past people's defenses or biases in a way that when truth and reality is revealed, it's already in. And then when they realize, oh, wow, that's so new, they aren't as abrasive to it or rejecting it up front. And I think in some ways we can use our story that way and not to manipulate or to strong arm people into believing things that they don't want to or would be damaging to them. But our story can be a key into so many doors that otherwise we couldn't get in if we're just like, hey, you should do this and you should do that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, Bob, we've talked a lot about counseling, and you're a Pure Desire clinician. Will people only encounter this clinically informed perspective if they come and do the pure desire counseling process? Or how does this show up in the group environment as well?

Yeah, to answer your first question, no, that's not the only place that they'll encounter it. They'll encounter it in everything that they interact with. With pure desire. I mean, it has informed the way that we approach group recovery for addicts. It has informed the way that we provide support and betrayal trauma for spouses in how we approach conversations with our children. No, I mean, I think this has woven its way or is in the fabric of the DNA of pure desire and all of the conversations that we have and what we do. You know, it's saying that the only place that you're going to find identity is in Jesus. And now let's practice that in some clinically sound ways within these environments. And, you know, one of the ways I think this comes out is in our newest version of Betrayal. And beyond that, you know, we have updated that to make sure that what we're doing is clinically up to date with research and clinically up to date with what is proven to be effective and helpful for betrayal, trauma. And so the biblical side of it is there. It's still the same. But the way that we're also connecting that then with clinical work is always in process too, as we're learning new things about the brain and about trauma.

Yeah. And to your point, Bob, about relationship and community being so central, these clinical tools really do facilitate more opportunities for connection. And even in that connection, it's beautiful that shame gets diminished and understanding and awareness happens and real direction and change happens in people's lives. And so I think that these tools are just. They're so helpful, and that's why they show up in group, because you're in a community setting that are all working through the same process together, and everything that you're doing is just facilitating more awareness, more vulnerability, and more relationship in community. And, yeah, it's absolutely central to everything that we do, everything that we say, and all the resources we develop.

Yeah, I heard Diane Roberts say a number of times when I was starting with pure desire that we're all wounded in relationship. And so it's through new healthy experiences in relationship that we heal and grow and change. And I think because of that, it's foundational to pure desire that we've said everyone needs a group experience, everyone needs community where they can build new relationships of vulnerability, of trust, of true accountability. And that. That's what changes us. And then within that group environment, about 30% of people or so, probably more, can also benefit from counseling because they get that individual treatment, that individual expert that can help them go deeper into their story. But it kind of underscores our approach of how much the clinical side and the brain science has impacted us, that we see this has to happen in relationship. This has to happen in an understanding of how I see myself and others in a peer group setting. So that that's why we're very careful to not offer counseling only now. There's always outliers, and some have had that experience. But we say this counseling will be in conjunction with your group experience, because if you only do counseling, you're not going to get the relational engagement. And so that's where you'll see these tools show up everywhere. Because to us, the foundation is actually that group environment and the relational setting, not just the expertise of the counseling office.

So let's look at practically then, how these clinical tools, these exercises, this really clinically informed approach plays out practically. What do these look like in groups, in our resources and in counseling? Let's give some examples of that.

Yeah, I think that, you know, just starting with that, we have competent clinicians, right. That are trained in this area, that have certifications in the area of dealing with. With sexual addiction is really important. But some of the tools is really helping people to identify their reality, to understand addiction. Right. To understand that what's been going on is addiction and how far that goes, or that what's been going on is betrayal, trauma, and the impact of that to help them come to terms with what those things are. And clinical research is what helps us to form that language and really create that structure for people to understand. I think from there also being a part of a group, understanding that this is not just like what we do, this is kind of unanimously agreed upon. That going through life really ideally happens in a group. Right. It doesn't happen in isolation. And so going through life in recovery, either from unwanted sexual behavior or in recovery from trauma, betrayal, trauma, that doing it with support is really, really important. And within those things, and we have certain tools that help people to address trauma, that help to create a coherent narrative to understand what's going on. We help them with tools like physiological self soothing, Whether it's deep breathing or just kind of feeling grounded and present when they're starting to feel triggered by things. I think that in all those scenarios, this is being clinically informed on, okay, what are we doing and is it healthy for us?

Yeah, I think of some of the tools that most of our groups use, like the faster scale, which in a lot of ways is a clinical tool based on Michael Dye's research of addiction and struggle. And it parallels very well with what we see in ITAP and Dr. Carnes in kind of his the Pathway into addiction and what Dr. Roberts initially called the noose of addiction. It's seeing all these components that I don't just land in relapse. I step my way down there and having an awareness of what are those steps and how am I repeating some of them on a weekly basis long before I get to relapse. That's a very clinically based tool. I think our approach to the commitment to change, which, again, is borrowed as a tool from Michael Dye, but I think from a lot of our resources, it's understanding that macro change on a big level in our lives comes through the micro changes we make week in and week out to address our patterns of integrity and how I'm either facing pain or avoiding pain. I mean, that's. That's really the heart to me of the commitment to change is that double bind of I've got something painful I'm going to have to face. Am I going to take the easy way out or the hard way? And the hard way is usually the right way. Those, in a sense, are clinical tools that are helping people make very biblically based decisions about honoring God, honoring their marriages, being a person of integrity. But the root of them is really a clinical base.

The tool that for me, I guess, illustrates this the clearest to me is the three circles tool. Specifically, this is a tool that you're identifying what relapse or your unwanted behaviors are. That's the center circle. The middle circle then, or the second circle is things that I'm going to avoid or things that I need to put in place in order to avoid going to that center circle. Those are guardrails. And then the outer circle is the healthy habits that I need, the replacement. They are replacement activities and hobbies and habits that help me replace the old unwanted behaviors. But they're also things that push me into deeper levels of health, spiritually, relationally, mentally, physically, all of that. And the way that I see that playing out is at a neurochemistry, neurobiology level. We can't unlearn habits. We have to replace habits. And then if you look at Even Colossians 3, where Paul talks about taking off or putting off the old man and putting on the new man, we see that language line up perfectly. And so I think that's one of the easiest ways I've seen this practically play out, where we're using a clinical tool that helps us live out a biblical reality.

Well, Bob, this has been really awesome. So last question here, because there is, I think, a danger in the clinically informed side that we can get kind of absorbed with it. And as you were talking about earlier, we don't leave the Bible behind, but that could be a danger that some might really get so absorbed in man, the brain, science, and psychology, that they leave behind scripture. So how would you recommend that someone really combine the wisdom that is out there in the clinical world, the brain science, while still staying grounded in their faith? And are there any resources you recommend for this kind of integration.

Yeah, yeah. And I was realizing as we were going through the questions that at times it might have sounded like we were saying biblical counseling is dumb.

Right.

And that's not what we're saying. We're saying that at pure desire that we have clinically informed biblical counsel. Right. Or biblically based clinical counseling. Whatever, whatever. But, like, these are together. They're not separate things. And so. So, yeah, I mean, I think that we're all approaching, like, today with.

With.

With our entire history of our life.

And.

And Jesus, you know, talks about us being born again, and being born again means to go. To go back into, like, hey, how have I been looking at things? Like, how have I been approaching life? Like, what are my thoughts about relationship and myself and all of this? And so I think that to say, well, first of all, like, our grounding in faith or our biblical foundation is also something that has been impacted the way we understand the Bible has been impacted by our backstory. And it's important for us to realize, hey, you know what? I've also been maybe interpreting scripture. I've been interpreting stories. I've been looking at Jesus through my own past and through my own lens. And the way that we kind of come to terms with that is through this clinical work. So, like, the two, I think, are happening simultaneously. That we don't just throw out Jesus so that we can step into a clinical office. No, like, we're bringing this in with us. But we also understand that our interpretation of how God sees us is based off of our past and asking questions about, like, how we. How does God see us and what's our view of Father God? All of that is also impacted by our past. And so it's just to say, give yourself some grace, allow the two to coexist, and understand that as you're going through this process, your understanding of your biblical foundation or your grounding in faith is going to be dynamic and things are actually going to come to life. Like, you're going to have a renewed passion for the Bible. You're going to have a more full understanding of passages, like, to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. These two things really work together beautifully.

Yeah, I thought practically about a few resources. Kurt Thompson is a great author, I think, someone that I would highly recommend, who does a beautiful job of integrating these two, weaving them together. You know, Anatomy of the Soul, Soul of Shame, Soul of Desire. Those books are excellent. And then, you know, someone who is no longer in pastoral ministry that I've listened to has done A great job of integrating. This is John Mark Comer, who was based for a time here in Portland, Oregon. His books, his preaching, and he's part of a camp of guys who do that, who integrate understanding trauma and neurobiology and all of that and scripture and how the two play together. And then I thought of our friends Ben Bennett and Josh McDowell. Their book Free to Thrive, Very biblical, very clinical, understanding both sides. I think that that would be potentially a great entry place as well.

Yeah. I think of the pastors that have been at New Life in New York City. Rich Viladas is there currently in his books. Or Peter Scazzero kind of started it with emotionally healthy spirituality, but it really takes a pastoral, biblical approach to looking at wounds and trauma and family of origin and emotional health, and has really been a good bridge for a lot of churches to start with. And I think the other thing I would say in this area about how do we combine these two. Well, it's kind of maybe the difference between your main dish and your dessert that you need to make sure you've got healthy main dishes. And to me, that is our routines of prayer and scripture reading and devotions and whatever that looks like for you, the listener, to have that routine of your life with Christ, faith in God, building that through meditating on the word, journaling. That's the main dish that you need to be rooting your life in. And then as you do that, pursuing other resources like good books on psychology or brain science really can then add to what you feel like God's calling you to do in your life. And I think we're in a danger if we ever reverse that, where our main dish becomes just the latest pop psychology book that we're reading on brain science and wounds. And it's really exciting. And then we're like, oh, yeah. And somewhere God fits in this. Like, if that's our approach, we're gonna be in danger of getting off kilter. So I think just make sure you keep the main thing. The main thing, and then looking to add in things that really fill out that understanding of what God is doing in your life.

Yeah. So it's really clear, as you can tell, that we hold to the scriptures. We are very biblically based and clinically informed, and we have experienced and believe wholeheartedly that the two play together very, very well, and that it is very effective. And I think we're all people who would support that. Absolutely. Bob, thanks, man, for your time. Thank you for what you do. And I know that you do this. This excellently weaving these two together in the setting as a counselor. So thanks man. Appreciate you.

Yeah, my pleasure to be here and.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the Journey Journey today. If you liked this episode or are a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. Thank you for joining us on this recovery and healing journey. And lastly, never stop being healthy.