289 - Pure Desire Foundations: Groups Approach

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

What's up, people?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 289 of the Pure Desire podcast Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Come together right now. Over me.

That's good. So for our non musical friends, why don't we educate them on who this is?

Well, I had no idea, but I looked it up and did you know that's a Beatles song? I didn't know until today, five seconds ago. So fascinating. Also, I need to look up, like, what does come together right now? Over me. The over me part makes no sense to me. But I'll tell you where my memory picks up for this song. Some of our listeners will associate it as I do with. With the major super bowl commercial launch of a soft drink. Did you know this, that this was the jingle for Crystal Pepsi? Do you remember that?

What's Crystal Pepsi?

Crystal Pepsi was a failed Pepsi offering.

I've never heard of it in like.

The late 80s, early 90s where it was a clear. It was supposed to taste in every way like Pepsi, but it was clear.

Clear. Got it.

And it was, you know, as they're pouring the clear Pepsi, that was the song that was playing Come together right now over me and like over ice.

Is that what the.

I don't.

No idea why that was the jingle, but that's my memory of it.

So listener, if you know what the meaning of those lyrics are, email podcasturedesire.org Let us know because that'd be great. I think I have some ideas if I are going to tie this in, but we are in week three of our Pure Desire Foundations series and we had Rich Moore and Ashley Jamison, who are our associate group directors here on staff, here to talk about the foundation that we have. That's our group's approach to healing and recovery.

Yeah. So I still have no idea how the over me part would apply, but the come together right now is the idea that, like, there is an urgency, there's a right now need for us to be people who are walking and living in community. That changes us because we're safe, we're seen, we're known, and we're able to reciprocate that to others, which I feel like I'm quoting Dr. Kurt Thompson in his books without even meaning to. But. But that definition of intimacy that from birth we're looking for relationships where we're safe and we're seen that we're totally known, and we know that we're secure and loved in that place. And most people, let's be honest, in this world, don't have relationships like that. But that really is the aim of a pure desire group, is that I feel known, I feel seen, and I am able to tell and process my whole story. And we just talk a lot today about how that transforms us. So come together right now over me. I don't know about that part.

So one of the ways that we do this and one of the resources that we offer here is pure desire online groups. And we get into a little bit of the episode today about these, but it's always good to circle back and remind people that even though there may not be groups in their area, we do offer online groups.

Yeah, you know, it's exciting that we now have over 900 churches that have some format of a pure desire group meeting in their building, which sounds great until you put that, lay that over, over a map of the United States and even the world, because some of those are global groups. And you start to, you know, pull out the map and you realize there are huge areas where the closest, you know, dot on the map is hours and hours away. And so we just recognized how critical groups are to someone's healing journey. But if. If you literally have nothing around you, what do you do? And that's where the. The birth of our online group system came from. We take people who've been through an online group, we vet them and train them as leaders, and. And then we open up spots in a group with them. And it's a very, very unique environment because, yes, it's online, but it's a high, high level of commitment. And we have found in some ways, even more so than a local church, because everyone in the group has paid that same admissions cost. They've said, this is worth it to me. I'm gonna pay to be in the group. And actually, the commitment level for people showing up and doing their work is extremely high. And we have found that it's just a really powerful group experience. So we have them for men that want to go through seven pillars of freedom, for women that are on the betrayal side and want to do Betrayal and beyond, and for women that are walking through their own sexual health issues, they go through a workbook called Unraveled. Those are the primary ones. But then we also have groups for college age men called Living Free and for men who've been betrayed called Hope for Men. Now, I would warn in those last two, those groups are fewer and far between online. But if you wait and are patient, you'll find that we do launch a few of those. But the big three, Unraveled Betrayal and Beyond and Seven Pillars, they're up on our website. And what I would also say about them, a first come, first serve kind of group, meaning once the group is full, it's not on the website anymore. So I hear from people a lot say, oh, I went look for group, but there was only one group. And I thought you had a whole bunch. I was like, well, we do. We have like a hundred groups that are meeting, but they're all full and they're off and running. And so when you're on the website, if you're looking for a group, if there's one that you can make work, you need to jump in. Because if you don't, in a day or two, it'll be gone. Right now over me. Get in there. And it's just we have found that, yeah. That for some people, the technology early on is a challenge. Or they're, you know, it's like, is this going to be the same? But it's amazing how a couple of groups in, like, you almost forget you're online because you're just connecting with men or women at a very, very deep level, sharing your story. And it's transformational. So would encourage those who have no options for a group around them to check out the online groups. And I think it's a really powerful environment. Yeah.

And a lot of what we talk about today will give you the reason behind why these groups are so effective and why so many people want to be in them. So if you're interested in more information on our online groups or you want to join an online group, just go to PureDesire.org groups. All right, few things before we get to the episode. Subscribe to the podcast, follow us on social media and you can get this full episode up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. All right. And with that, here is week three of our Pure Desire foundation series with Rich Moore and Ashley Jamison discussing the group's approach of our ministry. Rich and Ashley, thanks for being here with us. This might be one of the very. This is one of the very few times where we've had someone on Zoom and someone in person at the same time. Either way, we're glad to have you both with us today.

Oh, it's awesome to be here.

Yes. I'm excited to be with my partner. Why are you laughing?

Because the full thing. I know.

I'm excited to be with my partner. And crying is what I was going to say.

That's fair. Okay, so I'm not gonna spend any more time on Ashley's intros, but today we are in week three of our Pure Desire Foundations series. We've looked at biblically based and then clinically informed, and then here we're talking about the group's approach, something that is so central to our philosophy of healing and recovery. And as our associate group directors, both men and women represented here felt like an easy conversation to have with you guys as to why this is so foundational to what we do and. And not even just why it's so foundational, but why it works, why it's so effective when it comes to recovery from sexual addiction and healing from betrayal trauma. So let's just get into it. Can you both. And this is more of, like, a history question, just so we can maybe lay some foundation, can you both tell us briefly about how you first personally got involved in a Pure Desire group? And then, I mean, just flex a little bit. How many Pure Desire groups have you led?

Okay, well, it's a great question. Short story. As many of you listening, and if you haven't heard my story, it's on a couple podcasts, I believe.

Put it in the show notes.

That's how I came to PD about 26 years ago now and have been involved really from the beginning. And ministry saved my life. I wouldn't be here without it. Ted got ahold of me, and he's just poured into me for the last 26 years, and through him and Diane and Harry and just back in the early days, really get connected. It's been a lifesaver. And I've done, gosh, hundred groups, hundreds of groups, maybe.

I feel like I joked one time that you've been leading groups for, like, 400 years, something like that.

It feels like it. Yeah.

If you include the ripple effect.

Yes.

There you go. That's true. That's good.

Yeah. And through that whole time, multiple groups throughout the year. So that's why I'd say it's probably. I mean, I can't put a number on it, but it's a ton.

Yeah.

And I just love what I do. It's the fact that we get to. Well, really the fact that I even get to show up to do a group. I could do it here, or I can do it in prison for 24 more years. So there's a big.

Yeah, there's a little cliffhanger to go listen to Rich's story.

Yeah.

Ashley, what about you?

Yeah, so I. I don't know. I had trouble, like, trying to count, I would say direct involvement, maybe 30 groups. Ish. And that's only because we didn't have any kind of system or structure to impart, like with our church to get groups going from leadership down or this really good group leader training structure, all the things we have in place now. And so it really was. I'm starting a group. Okay, you got it. I'm starting a group. Okay, you got it. And so if you've heard my story, within the first three years at my church, I started probably about 25 groups, either directly or just finding the leader and placing them in there and really holding their hand through it. And just continuously over the last nine years. So it's been since 2013 when we got plugged in with Pure Desire because my husband needed it. And when I just saw, really, I saw how applicable it was for me with the struggles that I've had in the past. So from the addict side, before I even recognized my need to get help as a betrayed spouse, I just recognized that. That addict material first. And so now I, you know, obviously have gone through both sides of it, but that's how we got involved. And then just having the passion to not have any other woman feel the way I did, like there was nobody else out there doing this and just going and starting groups and then starting another one and starting another one. So about maybe 30.

It's crazy.

So you guys are clearly experts in this area. You've got a lot of experience in the groups and in your own story. And so let's dive into this topic. When we say that Pure Desire takes a group's approach, what do we mean by that, and why is that such an important aspect to someone's recovery and healing journey?

Well, I know, you know, Rich and I have been working together now for seven years, overseeing the groups department. And time and time again, we just see how people find healing in groups. Rodney, who's on our board, and lots of people know him and love him, he was a really good example to me because, you know, he found his healing over 20 years ago with a certified sex addiction therapist. But he will tell people that it wasn't until he joined a group that he was leading for us at the church, where it really just broke, like, shattered the walls of shame, because you're finally sharing it with your peer, your peers, you're taking it outside of just this individualistic healing, and you're being confident in who you are regardless of Your story in your past. And so sharing in a peer group, we talk about how if you share your story and your narrative in a group that's safe, it lights up all these different neural pathways in your brain that you can't get any other way. And so it just brings a deeper level of healing and also confidence in who you are in Christ, and that your story is maybe part of what shaped you, but it's not what identifies you, and it's not who you have to remain to be.

Yeah. And I would just add a little bit to that. I mean, what she said is great. I think, you know, oftentimes we hear, just like she said, so many people are in counseling, and that's all they do, which is great. I mean, at least they're getting something. But counseling can be very. Can make you feel very isolated and not connected with anybody. And that's why the group's approach is so important. You can't do it by yourself. Even with a counselor who you may see once a month, you just can't do it by yourself. It takes that approach of wounded in community, healed in community. And so how, you know, as iron sharpens, iron, one sharpens another. That's that group's approach where it's really important that. Okay, I'm not the only one. There's another six or seven guys or women that are. We're all struggling with the same thing. And I don't have to do this on my. On my own.

Yeah.

If I was just in counseling. Well, I could tell you from my own history, when you go back to the court order treatment part of my story, that alone, which is counseling, the recidivism rate is so high because it's not a group approach, even though they have a group approach in their system. But it's nothing like the accountability piece that we do in our PD groups.

Yeah. And I think that the group's approach is so opposite of how we've been living life in addiction. It's isolation. It's pulling away. It's not being real and honest about what we're going through. I think I've heard, Nick, you say this a number of times, that in group, in this community approach, this group's approach, you're experiencing the vertical love of God at a horizontal level, like God's people are the hands and feet, extending that love and acceptance to you. And that, you know, when you're in an addiction is so opposite of what you assume you know about yourself.

Yeah. There's something so powerful that happens when we Tell our whole story to other people. And for a lot of men, and, you know, particularly on the struggle side, the addiction side, for a lot of men and women that have struggled, they've maybe really only told their story to God or to another person, like a counselor. And in that regard, those are people that cannot reject us. If we believe in our faith, God doesn't reject us, which most of us thankfully do, or the counselor or pastor or priest. In many ways, it's their job to hear our confession and work with us. But many people have never told their story in a circle of their peers. Where there is that fear of rejection, there's that fear of, will I be treated differently? Will people look at me differently? And so in a group context, when we're able to start telling our whole story and all the parts of it and the pieces that many of us swore we were never going to tell another living being, we're going to take it to our grave. And then we say it out loud in a group, and instead of condemnation, we receive acceptance and grace and support. It changes us, and it changes us in a way that nothing else can if we don't have that opportunity. And does that mean that a group is the only place you can tell your whole story? No, but I think the kinds of groups that Pure Desire sets up create an environment that is safe, that does enable that kind of sharing that most of us. I mean, I would say in my life, I have not had any other place with that level of safety and confidentiality that I would have felt comfortable sharing some of the things that I have. And so I think that's why group is so absolutely essential. Because until we've told our whole story, there's just pockets of shame. There's pockets of just old patterns and behaviors that will continue to trip us up. And that's why groups are just so important in this process.

So let's get into that a little bit more. Like, in what ways does this group's approach show up in our ministry, in our philosophy, how we help people?

Yeah, I think, you know, Nick really kind of touched on that Just. Just in the last question. But I really think that that approach of wounded in community, healing, community. I mean, that's such a big piece. We say a ton. I mean, it's almost like one of our. Our big motto.

It should be a T shirt at some point. Yeah, for sure.

And. And it's really at. At its core, it's kind of the foundation of what we do. You know, that's where men and women Come together where they find their first safe place to even talk about what's going on in their life. And we've created that safe atmosphere for them to do that. And then out of that launches into counseling, all the other programs that we have and the things that are available for them. So I think it's just. It's at its core, it such a foundational piece. And then what's great about it, whether you don't have to go, if a church doesn't have groups. I was saying, it's like, well, your church doesn't have groups yet, because now, Trevor, you're going to church across town, you're going to that church, and you're finding healing there, and then eventually you can go take it to your church. So that's. Sometimes we don't. Obviously we don't think about that when we're starting in the group process. But that is one way that the ministry grows as we men, women, are seeking healing in churches that don't even have. Because their churches don't have groups. And then they go and they go back to their church, they launch that, and it just. The ripple effect from there. So it's really just a big piece of what we do. I mean, you know, like I said, just in my life. Oh, a couple hundred groups or so.

Yeah.

And it's just. It's, you know, you keep showing up, you keep getting healing, and you just pass it on, pay it forward.

Yeah. I kind of think of us in our ministry as a bridge because, you know, there's some people that maybe can't see a specialist, like in medical care, but they may be able to see, you know, just this free clinic for something. And I see our. The way we partner with churches in volunteering, like volunteers getting into our training and taking it back to their church. And it's this big gap that we have between people being able to afford a therapist or doing nothing. And so that's where I see our ministry filling this huge void that we have in society. Really. If anybody's ever struggled with mental health issues or just how hard it can be to get the quality of care that you need. I feel like our groups department and what we do at this ministry with groups and partnering with churches and training leaders and offering all these free resources is just bridging that. And so a lot of times people come to groups and we. We really encourage them to get counseling, but they would have never known they needed counseling unless they had somebody invite them to a group or they had that person who's on fire because they've experienced healing, come back to their church and say, this works. I can tell you it works because this is my story. And so I just feel that we're just bridging that distance between people who are hurting and getting the care they need. And sometimes, you know, they're halfway across the bridge and they're ready to, like, make a little offshoot and invite other people onto the journey. But it's just a really good way to reach people who wouldn't otherwise be reached.

You know, if you look at everything we do as Pure desire, you know, we have a lot of resources and tools and blogs and podcasts and products and services, but ultimately everything is designed to funnel people into groups. And if you spend much time on our website, you're going to figure that out, like, oh, these other tools can help me. But at the end, they're all telling me, so, take your next step. Join a group. Get plugged in, Start a group. And it's just because of our core conviction, like, we're already talking about that that's where healing and change takes place. And that outside of group. I mean, Ted Roberts said it all the way back in the book. Pure Desire is like, this needs to be lived out in a group context. And so that was kind of my experience of realizing, if you try to do these principles, because you can read the book Pure Desire or some of our resources, if you try to live these principles out by yourself, it's just not going to work. They're based on a group context, and it's even written into our vision statement as an organization, which says that our vision is to catalyze transformation in the church by helping them create sustainable group ministries for men and women. And when that happens, we just know it changes the culture of a church. It creates that safe place. It begins to be a funnel. When people struggle, they know where to go, and ultimately everything else revolves around that. And so, you know, to ask how. How do we approach it? We say it's everything, and without it, really, a lot of what we do falls apart unless there's a group community element as part of that journey.

Yeah, so good.

So, Rich, you said it already that we're healed, we're wounded in community, and so we're healed in community. Let's keep unpacking that. What does this mean? And why is it so important to understand?

One of the quotes that I was thinking of is from Johann Hari that says the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, but human connection. And we at Pure Desire Truly believe that. And a couple examples I can get from my personal life. Some of the things that just catapulted my freedom in the things I struggled in, you know, I would find freedom from it. But there was still this lingering shame in me around certain people that I loved and trusted. But I hadn't been completely vulnerable with my story about. And so one I think of with my best friend. She knew everything about me except for this one teeny, tiny piece that I had that was revolving around the years I spent in eating disorder. And I finally said, okay, I want. I don't want to ever feel this little, like, nagging that there's a part of me she doesn't know and there's a part of me I'm afraid for her to get close to. And so one of the nights I just said, you might tell you something. There's one piece of my life that you don't know. And if she's going to be one of the people in my inner circles, I wanted her to know. And so I just, like, told her about my struggles with eating disorder before I married John. And that just, like, broke down these walls that then she shared something. She's like, there's also one piece of my story that you don't know. And I' like, what? Because we've been best friends since we're 12 years old, so we thought we knew everything. And it just, like, brought us even closer and brought this freedom to where now when it makes sense to talk about that part of my life, there's no shame. There's no avoiding the conversation. There's no weird withdrawal or manipulating the conversation so that we don't get too close to that. I just truly believe that when we know we're accepted for who we are and we know that we can struggle in real time with some of these people that are trustworthy and safe, that it brings a freedom to us where we don't feel like we need to continue hiding, which then leads to isolation and which leads to more addictive cycles. So, yeah, I just think that connection is important, and it doesn't mean we need to stand on the street corner with a sign to everybody, because not everybody's safe. But it does mean that we should have a few people in our life that do know everything about us and are willing to walk alongside us.

Yeah. Don't have a lot to add, because that's a great answer. I would just say, looking back 26 years ago, our first Pure Desire group that Ted says, hey, go to this group. We met at 5am in a little pizza place in downtown Gresham. And the leader at that time, I'll just say Mike is his name. I'm still good friends with him. And it's been such a blessing of being in groups and leading groups because most guys coming to group have. You could count their. Their closest friends on one hand and it's maybe one or two guys. I've had the opportunity to meet hundreds and thousands of guys over the years in my phone. I probably have over a thousand contacts of men that have been in my groups from even back in the day.

Yeah.

And we're still really close. And like Ashley said, it's. It's so refreshing that you can walk in somewhere and you don't have to hide anything because since they already know your story, if you don't even look at them in the eyes, they're going to say, hey, what are you hiding? That kind of stuff. And I think that's why this approach works. And just being open and honest and transparent. It's such a blessing to know that I can literally pick up my phone and have a conversation with a guy. Yeah. And they're all in. In my recovery.

Yeah. I think one of the things I've heard Dr. Ted talk a lot about is in our wounding. That's when Satan will lodge lies in our soul. And it just like we live our whole life based off of stuff that's not true because of the ways we've been wounded and the way that Satan's been lying to us because of that. And I think that being in group and, you know, I've shared story after story on the podcast about it, you know, in my own recovery journey, that those lies get deconstructed when you start to be honest and real in groups and you see that people don't turn away from you and do still love you and still want to hang out with you, keep your number, you know, in their phone like that then destroys that lie that I believed and then tells me a truth that. I mean, a truth that really does set me free. That it's okay to be broken and it's okay to not have it all figured out and to have struggles and I can still be loved. And I think that that is just why this is such an important piece to what we do.

And I think some people might hear that quote and struggle at the beginning. Part of what do you mean we're wounded in community? Or another way to say it is we're wounded in relationship or relationships. And those words could Somewhat be used interchangeably. But when we look back at our story, the deepest wounds were in the context of relationships that it might have been an incident that occurred or the football game or the party that we attended. But if we really unpack the story, it's know that someone that should have been safe was not. Someone that should have been trustworthy, broke that trust, someone that should have been respectful or valuing of us, devalued us or hurt us, someone that should have protected us instead hurt us or abused us. And in all those relationships, that's what communicates identity, value and worth to us, is what we see through those core relationships, especially early in life. And so because that's the context and the nature of our wounds, it's healthy version of relationships where a person that was supposed to be trustworthy was trustworthy. A person that was safe was safe. A person that should show us grace and value did. And our brain actually picks up on those cues and relearns from it, who God intends us to see ourselves as. But it's only in the context of relationship. And so I think what we want to be clear to say is when we say we're group based, really we're saying there's a relational community approach to healing and we find that the group context is where that happens best. It's not that there's something magical just about being in a group, although, I mean, there's a lot of benefits to it. But it's the relationships that take place and what it communicates to us that ultimately becomes a major part of our healing.

So let's just unpack maybe being more specific when it comes to a pure desire group. How do those differ from a traditional small group? You know, it's funny, Nick and I, even before recording, we were talking about, I had originally titled this episode small groups Approach. And he was like, well, people are going to assume something when they hear that. And that's so true that when you hear small groups, you think Bible studies or you think you know something.

Book study.

Yeah, things like that. So how are pure desire groups different from traditional small groups or even accountability groups?

Yeah, I think the one thing that really stands out just that is it's very structured. You know, a lot of a Bible study, you go to Bible study, it's kind of open. You know, a lot of those groups are. Even some of the accountability groups are kind of a little bit of an open format. But the structure that we have in place for groups I think is really makes it kind of the standalone approach. I mean, that's my opinion. I think we're top notch. But a lot of times, and I've worked with guys that have been in so many different kind of recovery groups, and then once they get into seven pillars group, they're like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. I don't know why I haven't heard of you guys before in the approach. You know, the first part is we create that safe place because as a leader, we're opening up and sharing our story and inviting them in. Not a lot of places will do that out the gate. And so I think our approach really fosters that and it continues to grow. And what's funny is, is a lot of churches sometimes will model some of their small groups after, like, the approach of a PD group because they're. The PD groups in the church are so structured and they follow the group guidelines, they follow best practices, stuff like that. So a lot of churches take the PD best practice and group guidelines and shift those to their small groups. And now their small groups are even getting healthier and healthier here.

Yeah. So my brain went completely different on this question. I was thinking, like, I mean, I've been part of a Bible study fellowship group, which I think is so amazing, and they have very. I wouldn't say strict, but, like, they have these really great guidelines in place for people to really come there to focus on diving to the Bible. So I do feel like there are a few other ministries that have these amazing guidelines in practice, but I don't feel like there's any other ministry where it's like, I can come and say, I'm really struggling with trust and I'm a crazy mess right now. And I took my husband's phone to work accidentally so that he wouldn't have it at home. Or I'm learning how to have an orgasm so I can want to have sex with my spouse. Or we had sex last night and I started having anxiety. Like, there's just so much that we can talk about in my women's groups on both sides. The struggling spouse. Or I'm feeling sad because I have to let go of my affair partner. Like, is that normal? What other Christian group can you bring those things to group and wrestle with? I think that's what makes us unique is that we have a heart for health and we have a heart for marriages, and we have a heart for wholeness and vulnerability and relationships and all the things that are good that God put in us. But we also can say, sarah, I need you to take my calls. For the week because I'm going through a really hard time with my husband right now and I need you to take my calls because we can be vulnerable with each other while still pursuing these things that God wants for us. And I think that's what makes Pure Desire different. So different that Rich and I, when we hire people on our team, they're like, wow, this is really healing for my family. This is really like no other place I've worked. And it's not just our work environment, but it's what we try to instill in our groups that we're real people who really love Jesus and really have a lot of garbage to work through.

Seriously.

Yeah.

And that is a unique combination.

Right. I think in my experience, accountability groups where I show up and I share, but there's not a lot of work that I do in advance where pure desire groups is you earn the right to share by doing the work before you get there. That's literally one of the guidelines that if you don't do your homework, you can't share. You can still be a part of the group and do the check in and everything, but you're not sharing the stuff because you didn't write it down. And I think that that's one of the things that's so different about our groups is it puts the onus of work on us that we're doing the recovery work where an accountability group can.

Often.

It'S really outsourcing my healing or recovery on to how often these other people check in with me or if they ask the right question or whatever. So it puts the responsibility of my recovery on myself. I think that's what makes, at least for me in my experience has made it the most unique.

Yeah, I think it also what comes to mind for me is the difference of the commitment level. And I know, I mean, Ashley mentioned the Bible study fellowship. There are others that have a high expectation of. Of commitment. But I think even in a lot of those formats it's based on, well, as long as this is working for me and I'm getting what I need, I come versus a Pure desire group. There's really an invitation to trust the process, to humble yourself, to be a part of the group and for the good of the group, commit to say this is my top priority. I'm not going to miss unless there's like a death in the family or I'm unavoidably out of town for work or a family trip. But otherwise I'm going to go through this process and I'm Going to do the work. And it's not come when I feel like it. You know, I think of many people maybe have the AA group model come to mind. It's like, hey, when you need go to group and if you need share. But if you don't need, like, you know, it's kind of your call where we say, no, you come even when you don't feel like it, because this is a commitment you've made, and you've made that to the group as much as to yourself. And your presence there, your participation is going to be equal to everybody else's. So it's not just, hey, if you feel like it, share. It's. It's no, we're all walking through this together now. I would say on the betrayal side, there's more flexibility of when you're not ready to share. There's no pressure. You know, we're not, you know, forcing that. But particularly in an accountability side for men and women overcoming sexual addiction, there's an expectation you're doing the work like you said, Trevor. And then I'm going to come and I'm going to process that. I'm going to be open and real and vulnerable. Because we've just found that if you're not, if you're just showing up and sitting in the room, you might as well not come. I mean, you'll learn a few things, but it's not going to transform you. And I think that commitment level is really what distinguishes it from anything I've done before. And then the last piece, I'd say, too, is the commitment that comes on the back end of group, where at the end, I don't leave the room until I've committed to what I'm working on, what's my next step. And that commitment to change of here's my priority the next week, and I'm going to reach out to others and tell them how I'm doing. I think is part of the secret sauce that if groups just end with, all right, well, everybody go out and apply this to your life as the typical small group does. I may go out and work on something, or I may, on the drive home, forget what we even talked about and never think about group again until I show up the next week. And that's the typical small group. No, this is, here's my focus, here's what I'm committed to, and here's who I'm committed to telling. And when I'm walking in that week in and week out, it's so much more than just Showing up for a couple hours one night a week, it's the group meeting is kind of the pinnacle of my week long commitment and I think that's a real difference maker.

Absolutely.

So to follow up on that, in what ways does understanding that healing happens in community impact life outside of a pure desire group? So as I was saying, is this just about our two hour weekly commitment or what happens during the rest of the week that is part of that community experience?

Well, I think what we see and hope for and encourage is that a lot of times group is the first place somebody does feel safe to start sharing these things because they are accepted, they're with people going through the same thing. But eventually we want that to translate out of group that they are sharing more and becoming more relational with their spouse, with their kids, with their parents. A lot of times this happens in some kind of sequence of whether they're safe or when disclosure happens. But eventually they're going to baby step their way out of just being safe with these few guys or these few women and they're going to take it outside. So I have a lot of women that come into my group, betrayed side and, and struggler side that will say, I never thought I would share this with anybody. And that is always like music to my ears because I know that's the first step. We're so early in the workbook. I know that's the first step for them being able to feel safe, to maybe share it with a sister who's struggling or to be able to be honest about what's going on in their marriage with maybe a parent. And it. And like I said, there's so many variables. Sometimes it depends on the health of the people around you. But we want people to get to the point where they can live in their own skin and feel free in their own story and know that their story is just a part of what's happened in their life. It's not something that needs to identify them. It's not something that needs to shame them or hold them back. And so just using that vulnerability, and I've seen this apply to my kids, I could have been called controlling. I mean still, but controlling helicopter. Like all these things. But for my kids, they said as I shared more, at least it's made more sense to them. So when I say I don't want you to do X, Y or Z, I don't want you to go here, I don't want you to spend the night here, it's made more sense. I've as I've been comfortable with my story to share. Like, I shared, I had sexual experiences with other girls from, you know, 6 years old to 13 years old or in that time, you know, that age range in my group first, that's where I felt safe to share it. And I felt safe to share it because somebody else shared it. And then I was like, oh, that's what that is. I never even had categorized it that way. And then once I categorize it that way and recognize it and then shared it, I became comfortable to go, this is something that happens to people, and it doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. It means it's something that happened to me, something I went through. And then. And then I was able to share a level of that with my own daughter, which then translated in her telling me right away when something even remotely close to that happened to her, she felt comfortable to tell me. And so I feel like the vulnerability and experience I had in group directly impacted my family tree and my daughter repeating some of those patterns.

That's awesome.

Yeah. Emmanuel and I went to our church yesterday and we spoke to the pd. We had a Christmas thing with our PD groups last night. He talked about, which I thought was a great perspective. And we've talked about it before, too, in some podcasts and stuff. It's like we start in group and the healing takes place in group. And we had about 30, 35 guys there last night. And. And he got up and he shared. He says it represents 35 families, which represents 35 communities and neighbors and friends and all that stuff. So the healthier we get in group will translate into, like Ashley said, healthy family. Healthy community. Because as we risk in group and learn how to be vulnerable, our circle of influence changes. Because now it's like our circle of influence. The friends that we had pre pure desire is now not the same guys necessarily. I hang out outside of pure desire.

That's right.

So 99 of my close friends are all PD guys. Yeah. And so that's just that, health that. So as we get healthier, our circle, our healthy friends, outsider group start to grow.

Yeah.

And then what I also see, what I. What I love is a lot of churches are only. I won't say only, but in a sense, only as healthy as the men in their church. I've heard that been said quite a bit. And when you see the guys getting healthy in a PD group, their families are changing. Now that family becomes they're volunteering in other areas of the church because now they're healthy enough to walk into a church, say I'm at a place where I can do lead a Bible study. So they're not always in a PD group. Maybe they're leading, but they're also serving in other areas in the community.

Yeah, I'm not currently in a pure desire group, but one of the ways it's recently what it's taught me, and I'll just give a recent example, is it's taught me the importance of sharing and reaching out when something difficult's going on. If I'm feeling triggered, if I'm struggling with something, you know, even just recently with my wife's surgery, and then we're having some complications with my oldest son, like, I've been able to reach out and just say, hey, guys, today I'm just really struggling. I don't trust the Lord. I'm really afraid something's gonna happen, whatever it may be. And I found that even just doing that, practically, as small as that seems, opens up the opportunity for them to encourage me to pray for me, to love on me. And then also there are times when I share things like that where some of the anxiety I had goes away a little bit. Some of the fear that I have goes away a little bit. Where God can minister to me as I'm being vulnerable and sharing. And so that's just an extension of what I've learned and experienced in a pure desire group and how it's playing outside of that context.

Yeah, what I think happens outside of group is when you are in the midst of those situations, just like you're describing Trevor. Or also if we're on the addiction and struggler side and we're triggered or we're in a situation, we feel that old engine starting up and we're going back down the tracks towards our addiction. For many of us, we spent years or decades going, well, who do I even tell? Who can I reach out to? Who would understand who's available? Well, when you have a group, you know who to call. You know who's available. They've told you. And even if it means you're leaving a message with someone you know, it's someone that cares, understands, and is going to follow up and have the kind of conversation you need. And the power of that, of just going into moments, because sooner or later in this world, we all do end up alone. Meaning we'll be home alone one evening, we'll be the last person in the office. We'll be driving, we'll be alone. And in those moments, to not know who to reach out to is paralyzing. But to have a group and know I'm never truly alone, I've got people that got my back and I can handle this responsibly, that's a difference maker. The other thing I've seen personally that I think impacted me the most was just how group trains us to not avoid pain, but to face pain. And that impacts every area of our life. It's impacted me as a dad, as a husband, as a boss, as a pastor, as a friend. It's like I'm not going to avoid the awkward conversation. Like if it needs to happen, let's lean into it. If I'm feeling run down, kind of like you were sharing Trevor, something's on my mind. Like I need to find someone and share it with, not just bottle it up. And I tend to be kind of a stuff it down and move on with life kind of person. So having that change of perspective, I think that's where we begin to live in the kind of authentic community we develop in groups starts to spill over into all areas of our life. Even if the people were being more authentic with maybe don't know our whole story, maybe they're not safe for our whole story, but that does still change our relationship with them because like, hey, we need to talk about this or we need to address something that in the past we maybe would have just totally avoided and, and made it a further part of our isolation pattern.

Yeah. So what do we say then to, you know, because this story that, you know, some of us have, that a lot of us have, can be super isolating. What if someone doesn't have a large community around them? They only have one close friend. Or maybe it's an online community they're a part of. What do you do with that? How do you encourage that person? How do they break out of that isolation if they feel like they're so isolated?

Yeah, that's a great question. We hear it a lot. And that's probably the biggest thing for the online groups is like, well, I don't have anybody local or maybe I have one friend. What I, what I tell the guys is like, especially with online groups, it's like, hey, you can still meet somebody for coffee. You just do a zoom coffee meeting, you know, and you still invest in relationship. And it's, it's one of those things that it's healing at all cost. And if that means I have to set up another zoom meeting just to be in connection with somebody. And part of it is the guys that aren't in community. The men, women that are in community and they're in an online group, it's probably because there's nothing local for them to get to. And because there's nothing local to get to, they're not at a place they want to share with people that don't even know what's going on. The church hasn't made it safe for them to share. Nobody's gonna understand. So we in the online setting, we just have to be creative on how to create that community aspect. And one way is, I mean, a great way is just the PD events that we have throughout the year. It's like, hey, I'm going to this event. Can you make it? You know, try to get your online group there, you know, that kind of stuff. So you just have to be creative and encourage that because that. We hear that a lot. It's like, especially some of these guys that are in the middle of nowhere and they're like, man, what do I do? It's like, hey, if you want to meet for coffee, we'll just get on a zoom call. And what's funny is, is a group scene. Ashley and I do this a lot because other than Emmanuel and I, our groups team is all remote, so we don't have the opportunity to meet, like, in community to all together. So we'll do a coffee meeting and we're just all together, you know, and. And work on stuff like that so it can happen. You just have to be intentional in that. And then I would say just if there is somebody local that you trust and then that you can build trust with to share and open up, you don't have to go in and share your whole stuff right out the gate. Take it slow, but definitely look for somebody if you can.

Yeah. Other than having the Ghostbusters song stuck in my head when Nick said, were you gonna call? I can't stop thinking about Ghostbusters. And I will verify as one of Nick's employees that it does translate into his life. He. Everything he said is very true. He is a. He is a great model of vulnerability and a boss. But what I was going to say is that I like, there's certain areas where I've had a lot of shame and I had no community. Like being a divorced, remarried mom, there's nobody that walks around the church with signs on them that says divorce. It's really hard to know who are the other people that have been through what you're. You're. You've gone through. But I will say also that there are so Many men and women who are experiencing sexual betrayal, sexual trauma, sexual struggle, unwanted behaviors, however you want to categorize it, there's so many people. And so I like to just. I mean, I've always been one that's not afraid to be an open book or have some Drop some shock value into a group setting. And usually that ruffles people to the surface. And, you know, if I just say, you know, this is what I'm struggling with, and even though it's scary and I start, like, sweating my brains out, usually somebody says, okay, I've experienced something like that, too. It's that whole me too thing that Nick talked about in. In some of our events, where it's like, when you are the person that says, I'm struggling and I need help, or this is what I'm going through, a lot of times that is what brings people out and makes them feel safe. But I just knew, like, going back to the divorce thing, I knew I needed other people who were Christians and had mixed family, blended families. And so I joined a group, a divorce, you know, a blended family, small group at our community center, where John and I went for seven weeks. And we met with other couples that were blended families. And so we sought out things that were specific to things we were struggling. We didn't feel like we had enough community. And then when it came to this pure desire stuff, it was like, you know, I was rapping at everybody's windows and knocks, going, hello, is there anybody out there struggling with this? And that's when Rodney said, well, you can start it. And I really was so confused why I was in this church, like thousands of people, and I could not find another spouse that was going through the same thing. And so just being able to say, well, I'm going to start this group. I need it. If any other woman wants to join me or needs this is here. You'll find me in room, you know, portable A3, and that's where I'll be. And then all of a sudden, women started coming out of the woodwork. And so sometimes if that desire to have community is in you, sometimes it's you that is the one that's supposed to start it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think sometimes we can be so focused on what we don't have or what we can't do that we might miss things we can do. And I'm not trying to be critical of anyone listening, but I've had stories where people say, oh, there's just no groups around me. And as I unpack their story, What I realize they mean is when I go to church on Sunday morning, I don't hear them talk about groups at our church. And so I've assumed there's no groups around me. But I'm like, have you checked on like the Pure Desire map to see if other churches in your community are. And they're like, no, well, let's start there. And it's like, oh, well, it's half an hour away. I'm like, well, great. Can you drive there? Well, it's half an hour. Like, okay. We have stories of men who've driven an hour and a half, two hours because it was the closest group and that might be happening around you or joining an online group through Pure Desire if you've not. I don't currently have a group and I'll get. Well, the time doesn't work. It's like, well, sooner or later a group will. If you make priority or I can't afford it. And like, you know, you just unpack that. There's a lot of things where we're maybe resistant because we're not used to having to put some effort into creating community. And that's what I'd say. This might take some effort. That's the do what you can do part to find that community, to start the group, to sign up for the group, to drive to the group. And I think in the end, if you're not doing that right now, what I'd say to you is when you look back, you'll say, that was worth it. You know? My first group was a 45 minute drive and at first I hated it. I thought it was the dumbest thing in the world I had to do. And if you've heard me share my story by like, partway through, it was my favorite night of the week. I couldn't wait to go. It was an amazing experience and I don't regret at all that extra hour and a half I spent driving because it became part of the process of. As I'm driving up, I'm thinking through and preparing and on the way home I'm applying it. And often my wife was driving up with me to her group, so we were dialoguing. It just became this really beautiful thing that honestly I could easily have missed because I'd have just been like, ah, it's too far, too inconvenient. But I basically had Ted Roberts saying, no, you'll go or else. I'm like, okay, I'll go. So I'm too nice to say that to people, but if I could Be Ted Roberts in your life. That's what I'd say. Like you, you've got to do this. It has to be top priority. And if you're sitting around complaining, you don't have community, but you're not doing what you can do, then honestly, you have no one to blame but yourself. And you're going to always regret that. But I don't think you'll regret effort you put into taking that first step or to finding group, creating community. And then just the other thing I'd say is to take a step. If you've already done group and it's maybe it was online, you feel like around you, there's not many people that get your story. Just take a step. Like Ashley shared, go out for coffee with someone you do feel friendship with, and maybe it's not very deep yet, but you want to go deeper. And so you go out for coffee to say, hey, could I share a little bit of my story with you? And you, at an appropriate level, get honest about your story. And almost always you're going to find what Ashley shared. The other person goes, oh, wow, thanks. I'd like to share a little bit of my story. And suddenly you feel deeper with that person. And then maybe God leads you to someone else at your church or job or community that you're like, you know, they seem like a really neat person. I want to invite them out for. We're going to go play racquetball together. Pickleball. I guess that's what everyone's into, just taking those steps towards community. That maybe, maybe that step isn't to create a whole new group, but maybe it's one step towards depth with one person in your life. That's progress. And if you can keep working on progress, not perfection, I think you're going to end up in a pretty good place.

Yeah. The only other thing I would add is just that without breaking shame, this journey is extremely difficult. I would argue impossible. And the way that we break shame is by being able to be vulnerable with other people and share what's actually going on in our life. And shame breeds isolation, and isolation breeds more shame. And so if we want to break out of it, we have to tell somebody.

So these are all really awesome ideas. We've given people a lot to think about in terms of group participation and creating community around them. As we get to the last question here, Ashley and Rich, what would be your final tip for someone of how could they at any stage of their journey? You know, because we've got people listening that maybe this is the first podcast they've tuned into, and they're like, what the heck have I gotten myself into? Or maybe we've got people listening. They've done 10 groups, 20 groups. So at whatever stage someone is at, how would you encourage them to develop better and stronger community around them? What. What kind of final tips would you want to leave people with today?

Well, one thing I was thinking of when you were sharing just about, like, the obstacles we might have to overcome with being part of a community is that I think a lot of the women that I speak to that have some of those obstacles is we're afraid it won't work. You know, like, we have no problem driving two hours to a specialty clinic if our child needs a certain mri or if we need to, if we're buying this car and it's the exact one. Like, we know there's going to be a guaranteed result. And I think that's what holds people up is like, well, do I want to spend $700 for an online group, or do I want to drive two hours for this free group? Which two hours is like two to four podcasts that you could be listening to during that time, just to point out. So it's part of your healing. But, you know, like, they're weighing the cost versus what the outcome is, and they're not sure what the outcome is. But with Rich and I, our combined experience with Nick, with Trevor, we can guarantee that if you put the work in, you will come out changed for the better. We can't guarantee your marriage is going to be perfect, reconciled, or you'll never struggle again, but you will see improvement, and you will come out better. Like, I've never seen somebody who put in all the work not come out better and not come out more hopeful. And so it is one of those calculated risks you take to spend the time and the money to do, but it's very, very worth it. And then as far as any stage, I would say if you're just brand new and you're like, what, Like Nick said, what the heck is this podcast? If you're a woman, you can reach out to me. If you're a man, you can reach out to Rich. If you have no idea where to start, we are. That's what we do. We're here to listen to where you're starting from and point you in the right direction. There's. There's always a place to start. It could be a book. It could be a free ebook. It could be a podcast that we give you that's specific to your situation. It could be tools to go talk to your church. It could be starting an online group counseling. We have so many things that you can get plugged into to just take that next step on your journey. And then I would say for the person who's years in, don't get too comfortable. Like life is hard. And so even for me, I have my certain circle of friends that I can just simply text. I am feeling very addict brained right now or I'm feeling very betrayal trauma brained right now. And they know what that means. They know to check in on me, they know to ask me certain follow up questions. And so just have your at least handful of people that know every single thing about you. And my one thing I always say is don't even have one secret that somebody in your life doesn't know that any secret has a hold on us. And so make sure that you have somebody. And if you don't have community, your group online at Pure Desire is probably going to be the place to start. So many people that go through our online group come because they don't feel safe in their geographical community and that's where they begin to exercise that vulnerability and transparency.

Wow, Such a good answer. Hard to follow that one. I'll start with the people just coming to us. Maybe think, you know, no, they have a problem but they haven't done anything yet. You know, it's kind of that double bind. It's like, well, if I do this, then this is gonna happen. If I don't, I mean that, that's a big choice. It's like, okay, well if you, if you're okay with being stuck, then just don't do anything. Right. But if you do want help just making one, just taking a step forward. I think you talked about making step forward. Maybe that first step is just picking up the phone and calling. And even if you don't know what to ask, the fact that you're calling us, we know that you need help.

We got you.

Yeah. So we can, we can help kind of break the ice there.

Sure.

And the other piece would be like Ashley mentioned is like if we've been in this for years and years and years is not just to be stuck in your relationship. I love what you said, Ashley, about not having people, people in your life that don't know about you. So don't keep secrets from the people in your life. And that's what's been a blessing for me is I have so many friends. But as I lead more and more groups. My friend pool keeps increasing, especially now that I'm leading pastors groups. It's like I have these pastors around the world that are such close friends now, which is great. And then so investing in them, me being honest, investing in them, and then they go out and then they reach out in their leading groups and they're starting in their church. I think that's just really key, is.

Always.

Risking in relationship. Because every time I tell my story to the very first group, the next group, when I start one in January, I got to start all over again. I still get emotional when I share my story. It's not any easier because the enemy every time I share it tells me that I'm worthless and I'm a piece of garbage. But I have to go through that process. And that's the part that's really healing for me. And I know it's just as healing for the men in group because now I just shared my junk.

Yeah.

And now it's okay for them to share their stuff.

Yeah. When I think about developing better and stronger, community just came to mind is like vulnerability and honesty breeds intimacy, and intimacy breeds more vulnerability and honesty. And it's just the cycle that continues to grow deeper and deeper. And when intimacy, which is really what we're describing is people who know everything about us and who have real relationship with us, because intimacy is so much more than, you know, what we can be traditionally taught that it's sex. It's not. I mean, intimacy is knowing and being known. And so I think that that's just the thing is that if you can be vulnerable and you can be honest, and we've said it a lot on the episode already, that you're going to be surprised at how vulnerable and honest other people feel like they can be. And then that's just like a snowball falling down the hill. Like it's just going to gain steam and it's going to get bigger and bigger and you're gonna end up with, you know, thousands of friends in your phone. But I think that's how you do it, and that's how communities get stronger, is being being known together.

Well, and it's okay if you don't feel like you have the emotional or relational bandwidth to have thousands of friends. Not. Not everybody has to be a Richmore. So please, please don't beat yourself up over that. If that's not you, I don't. I don't think that's me. I mean, I've had a lot of great guys with me. In groups. And a lot of them I've not heard from in a long time. Not cause I don't care, but just that's. I have a tough time keeping up with people to that degree. And if others do too, you're in good company. I think what I would say, just thinking about what Paul writes to Timothy in second Timothy, chapter one of how the God of all comfort comforts us in our afflictions so that we can pass to others the same comfort we have received. I think most people listening to this have probably experienced some level of community through a pure desire group. That's why they're listening to the podcast. They know what it is to be seen and safe to experience that kind of intimacy. So I would ask the question, like, what can you do to pass that on? To take the comfort you've received, what you've experienced in a safe, secure relationship or group, and try to be that to other people. And that might mean that you do help launch the group or start the group or lead the group. And even if you're hearing this going, but I'm not a leader and that's not me. And I don't take initiative. I'm more of the role player. Like, you know what, God can use you. He's not calling you to be a leader. He's calling you to use the same comfort you've received to go out and comfort others and the community that has impacted your life, to try to help create that for others. I love what you said, Ashley, that what drove you was I didn't want any other woman to feel the way I did, that there was no one to talk to. And I think that's what we're all looking at in our story is what has God done in my story that I want to see him do in others and then taking steps to try to create that around me. Because if, if there's nothing happening that I see, well, maybe it's because God wants to use me. He wants me to be the answer to my prayers and to trust that he's going to use me to do something in my church, my community, or my home.

Yeah, yeah.

It's so good.

It just, it's so foundational. And you know, Nick mentioned it that even on our website, the call to action constantly is join a group, join a group, join a group. And everything that we do, to Nick's point, again, you've had some really good points in this episode.

Oh, thank you.

Is that everything really funnels to groups because this is just where healing and I've used this description before, that it's just, it's the freeway of healing. It's where you, once you get up to speed, you can go places in your healing, in your recovery, in group. And so that's why it's a foundation of what we do. It's been successful and effective, and it continues to be so. And we've all personally been impacted by this group's approach. So that is week three of our Pure Desire foundation series. And Rich Ashley, because of your experience and because of your expertise and that willingness to be vulnerable and share your story, you guys are making huge impact. And we appreciate the time and energy you put into this episode. Thanks.

Thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. You or someone you know needs recovery and healing. Go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or are a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. Really? Thank you for joining us on this recovery and healing journey. And lastly, never stop being healthy.