290 - Pure Desire Foundations: Family Systems Model

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello. Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 290 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the Days of our Lives.

Be honest with me. Did when you were in high school, did you watch that when you came home from school?

Trevor, I grew up in a biblical believing Christian home. We didn't watch that show. I only saw it when I was a grade schooler and would stay home from school and could watch daytime tv. Oh, okay. No, I doubt that's very true. I'm sure my mom, you know, I'm old enough that the only TV we would have had would have been in the family living room. There would have been no remote control, and Days of Our Lives certainly would not have been a program my mother would have approved of.

Not on the top 10 apprentices.

I doubt even then I was watching Days of Our Lives on sick days at home.

It's fine. You just saved yourself from lots of judgment for me. No, actually, you know what? There may be some listeners out there who did watch it. And I listen, I get that it's a genre that people like or it wouldn't be on tv. So let's move on, though. We are finishing out our Pure Desire Foundations series and we had Heather Kolb, our content manager, on to talk about the foundation of the approach that we use, called the family systems model.

Yes, and as I've mentioned, I was not a big soap opera viewer, but as I've understood them to be, they're filled with a lot of relational family drama. And if you were to look at those shows, you know, the need for healing in someone's life would have been pretty ubiquitous all throughout the show, like, all the characters had issues, and that's what made, I think, daytime TV so popular was all the huge. They would really exaggerate people's both strengths and weaknesses. And then you could see so obviously, like, what people needed to work on. But in our family systems, there may be a lot more subtle than that. And yet there's just as much drama often under the surface the way that our worlds collide in marriage and in families, from stuff we've all brought with us, the traumas we've had along the way, our family of origin experiences. And we just wanted to unpack why. Historically, Pure Desire has understood this all being part of the recovery process that it's not just about changing behavior. We've said this a lot. It's about changing the way you do life. And you can't change the way you do life without taking a look at the family system that you're a part of, both the maybe the current one you're in and the family that you grew up in. And so that's what today's episode is all about, is understanding what does healing look like from that bigger perspective of a family system.

Yeah, absolutely. And it is a good one. Definitely a good conversation. Before we get into it, Nick, one of the things we want to remind people, especially as you know, we're now into the new year, thinking through ways to start conversations at their church or really start the recovery and healing process. We have a video course called Sexual Integrity 101. Let's talk about that for a minute.

You know, I've said this before, and I'll say it again, that the number one way churches start groups is when a motivated volunteer who has experienced a level of health in their own life and has a level of trust with the church goes to leadership and says, here's something God has done in my life. I think our church would benefit. I think others would really thrive if they were given this opportunity to lean in and experience more health in their sexuality. Could we run something like sexual integrity 101? That's the way groups get started. And so if you're a listener and God has been using this podcast or the materials of pure desire to make a difference in your life, and then you look at your home church and you go, man, we ain't done nothing like this. I don't think our church would go for that. Where do I start? Sexual integrity 101 is exactly the place. That's why it's called 101. It's the introduction. It's the on ramp. To understand sexual health from a biblical perspective, to understand it from the male side, the female side, the coupleship, it just really is an overview. And it's not just for people who struggle. It's meant to be an equipping and training tool for the whole church. And so we'd love to have you approach your church about that and look to use this tool. And if you have a church that is interested, you know, your staff would like to preview it. We can make a preview of it available to your staff. Just let us know. But we really think it's a powerful way to help people understand these concepts that pure desire is built on. And then for those who need it, it really creates the funnel into the longer groups that Pure Desire can offer for men and women. Yep.

So if you want to get Sexual Integrity 101, there's a few ways to do it. Digital Access DVD and then also a church kit and you can get those@puredesire.org 101. All right, before we get to it, a few more things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. And listen, if you just share it with other people, I'm telling you, it makes a difference. More people get exposed to this stuff, the better. And if you can rate the episode as well, rate the podcast, that'd be awesome. Follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and this full episode will be up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And with that, here is week four of our Pure Desire foundation series with Heather Kolb discussing the family systems model of our approach to recovery and healing. Heather, thanks for being with us and for helping us close out this new series.

Happy to be here.

As we start the new year, we wanted to look at the foundations that make up really us, Pure Desire Ministries. And this is the final episode of a four part series. And we're looking at the family systems model that we follow in our approach to recovery and healing. And really we're looking at the entire family offering resources to recovery and healing, but really looking at each member and how that is so central. And so that's what we're going to talk about today, specifically with those struggling with unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. So let's just jump in. One of the distinctive aspects of our ministry, Pure Desire, is that we are based on what's called a family systems model. What do we mean by this and how does this differ from other, maybe more traditional approaches?

Yeah, this is a great question because when it comes to what we do here at Pure Desire is that we look at the family system as not just the individual who's struggling, but also looking at his relationships with other people. Specifically. Yeah, or her. Thank you. Specifically their spouse and children and how really their behavior is impacting this family. Now, what's interesting, I think, about this model is that this was developed in the 19th 50s by Dr. Bowen and he suggested that in his he was a psychiatrist and he worked with clients and when he would try and make sense of a patient's addictive behavior, his assessment was limited. If you were to just look at the individual, you really wouldn't get very far. But when you looked at the individual and their family of origin within that family system, then it was more clear on how the behaviors developed and where they came from. And really looking at not only the dysfunction of the family, but also for the individual, what role did they play in the family and really what birth order and all of these different things that contributed to understanding an individual within that family system. So in the same way, here at Pure Desire, we're not only going to help the person who's struggling recover, but we have to take into consideration the entire family system and how their behavior is impacting everyone else. And also how then do we bring healing to everyone else?

Well, and it's a change from the model that I think many people are aware of when it comes to addiction, that we would call more of like a disease model of an addiction, that you have a problem, and our goal is to try to get in there and diagnose the problem and give you the pills or the workshop or the knowledge or whatever you need to fix the problem and then send you back and you'll be okay. And when we're talking about our sexual struggles, this is what we've shared on a lot of these podcasts. We're talking about a process addiction that is not about something outside of us, but about, you know, brain chemicals and things we carry around with us that are impossible to just fix or get rid of because we go back to being the person we've always been in terms of. I still have those brain chemicals, and I still have those reactions and triggers. And so there has to be a more holistic approach to recovery. And what I think of is the word interconnectedness. Kind of what you were saying, Heather, that everything that happens to us is interconnected. And so if we see this as a family systems issue, what we're acknowledging is that you can't just take one piece of that system and pluck it out, move it off to the side, fix it, and then put it back into the system and assume that it's all going to function normally. Because what will happen in addiction is the sex addict who goes away. And we talked about this a little before the show, like, who goes away on the 60 day retreat and comes back like, oh, I'm all better. But if nothing in their system has changed over time, it's probably going to grind them back into the form they were because they haven't really learned to deal with the interconnectedness of their struggle. And so it's just seeing that everything has to change together, even if it just means from the addict's perspective, that they have to see Their relationships differently, they have to see their work differently, they have to see their income differently and how they pursue pleasure, that it all has to get addressed or the longevity of lasting change is just not going to be there.

Yeah, I think that's what I like about this model, is that it looks at things from a holistic perspective in the sense of relationally holistic, but then also contextually if I'm, you know, I remember in. And maybe we had all these conversations, you know, growing up in the church with our parents, like, well, if they're not a good influence, you shouldn't spend time with them. Like sometimes we don't take into consideration the context we're in and the impact that has on us too. And so that's what I like about it, is that it really does take that approach and looks at it not just in a singular way, but really having that holistic wide view.

So let's get into this. And I could hear it a little bit even in my own answer of the objections, like, whoa, whoa, hey, wait, wait a minute. When we use a phrase like family systems model for healing, are we blaming or shifting some of the blame to the non addicted spouse or to the family relationship that a person has? Is this the equivalent of blaming the system for our bad choices? Because someone could say, oh well, you know, don't blame me, it's the bad system I'm in. Is that what we're doing? Or how would you explain that, Heather?

No, that's not what we're doing. Even though I think that that sometimes can happen. But it is that process of being able to help an individual not only understand why it is they do what they do, but also where does that behavior come from so that they can find healing from that and then like you said, be able to engage in relationships in a healthy way in a different way than they ever have before. And I think that that's the other part to this too is that when we engage in this kind of healing, it takes into consideration not just us as an island, but really how we have a tendency to impact other relationships and whether that's with our spouse or even with our parents or siblings or children or friends, that we end up impacting them in the same way that when we get health it impacts them, but when we live in unhealth, it impacts them. Does that make sense? And so it really isn't about blaming someone, but it's being able for, like, if I'm the person who's struggling, that I can look realistically at my behaviors and try and identify where they come from so that it empowers me to find healing and figure out a better way to live in health.

Yeah, I think it informs us. You know, like an example I think I've shared on the podcast is that growing up, being the oldest of four boys, I got blamed a lot. Or that was my perception. I got blamed a lot for stuff that I didn't do. Something bad happened. It's like, well, it's Trevor's fault. And so for me, anytime, even in my adult life where I feel like I'm getting blamed or pointed out negatively for something that I didn't do, I have a negative reaction to that. I get triggered emotionally. And that oftentimes, you know, and that can be in the form of rejection or it can be in the form of someone, you know, saying, I did something I didn't do. Then that's why I went to my unwanted sexual behavior. That's why I sexually acted out, was to numb that pain that I felt. And so for me, it just paints a clearer picture. And I think in some ways, that actually reduced the shame for me because it wasn't that I was just this pervert who had this big issue and I couldn't stop acting out sexually. It was actually, no, no, no. I got hurt when I was younger and I believed this lie about myself that no one really cares whether it's true or not. I'll always get blamed or not be considered. And so when I felt that way, well, I need to find medication for that pain versus having a crazy sex drive and not being able to control myself. So I think it informs us and helps us to diminish that shame.

That, yeah, it's kind of what we heard from Dr. Adrian Hickman not too long ago, and when we all did the PSAP training of that question, what makes this make sense? We're looking to help explain our behaviors, but that doesn't excuse them. And so something in our family system might help explain why we run to numb out with pornography or why we escaped a fantasy. It might give us a better understanding of things that happen in our family of origin that are just as you shared in your story, that are now being repeated in our current context that make us feel some of those same old emotions. And when we feel those emotions, like fear, rejection, loneliness, not good enough, whatever it is, that our brain, through our past history, has learned ways to deal and cope with those feelings. And so we. We feel triggered. To go back to it, that that explains within a family system why that might be happening, but again, it doesn't excuse it. And I. I think of a phrase that many Christian authors and speakers have used when it comes to marriage, and I. I think it could be applied to sexual addiction. And it's that my response is my responsibility. My response is my responsibility. So even if I feel like I have a very negative, critical spouse, I can't look and go, well, it's because of that. That then I have to go find this. Pick me up in pornography. Well, no, you could also just go for a run, or you could go to a counseling appointment, or you could go talk to a friend. Your response is still your responsibility. Maybe you had very controlling, domineering parents. And so anytime you feel controlled, you can't use that as an escape. Say, well, this is why I struggle with pornography. No, that. That your response to it is still your responsibility. So it's not about, in any way blame shifting. It's about understanding with a lot more depth and clarity why I do these things. Why have I gone to that escape? So that I not only work on amending the problem that I've run to, but also addressing all the triggers and danger zones, hotspots, that have caused me to run back to those things.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so to our point at the beginning, that this is not just something where we're looking at our family of origin and how that impacts our unwanted behaviors or the difficulties we have in life, but also looking at it holistically, that if there is someone who has a sexual addiction in the family, how that impacts the entire family, the spouse, the children, friends, family, community. And some of the ways that this plays out, a misunderstanding is that many churches will treat this as just the man's issue. And so if the man is the one who is struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, then we just help them. Why is that problematic?

Yeah, because if we're just helping the person who struggles, we're not helping them take responsibility for the way that their behaviors have impacted their spouse. Because really, it creates such trauma for partners that they need healing. It's a different type of healing. It's a different journey, but still somebody who's lived with an addict, somebody who struggles with compulsive sexual behaviors. Their world, really, not only through discovery and disclosure, but their world has been chaotic just because of the way that they're. They're living. They're sharing a life with somebody who struggles. That in and of itself creates kind of this chaotic, traumatic environment. But once they find out about all of this, they still need healing. Which is really, I think, really tough in the church because we've come a long way, I think, in helping the person who struggles, and we need to do more to help partners well.

And it also can treat men like they're somehow uniquely sexual individuals, whereas women are only emotional or relational. And I really think of Sheila Rae Gregoire, who's been on the podcast a couple of times, and I think is helping really change that paradigm in how we speak about sexuality, that men and women are sexual beings, and women have sexual needs in the relationship as well. And even if they might be defined differently or experienced differently, they aren't always that way. We talked about it with Sheila Ray, that there's these two overlapping circles. And, yeah, maybe most men are a certain way, and most women, but there's an area in the middle where the circles overlap. And some men would say, well, no, I have those emotional needs. And other women would say, no, I have those physical needs. And it's not wrong. It's not like they're somehow more manly or womanly if they have differing needs. It's just part of the human experience. And so I think when we say things like, oh, so for all the men who have all these sexual issues, and then we never say anything to women, it, again, minimizes it. Like, well, you're not really sexual beings. You don't really have needs or desires or wants. It's like, well, they do. And so I think when we speak holistically about healing, that it's a men's and a women's struggle. And men who are struggling have spouses who have been betrayed, and women who are struggling have spouses who may feel betrayed. And if we treat it holistically like that, it really gives a couple, I think, the chance to enter into healing together. To say, we're both being wounded by this in different ways and for different reasons. One needing to take responsibility for behaviors, the other needing to take responsibility for their own healing of how they felt traumatized and what they need. But both need healing, both need recovery. And so I think it just underscores, as humans, we all have those needs, wants, and desires.

The way I've looked at it is, let's say, a husband and a wife, and the husband is the one struggling. They're in a car and they're driving. The husband is driving, and they get in an accident. And the church would then come in and they would help the driver get healthy and say, we did our job. We're helping our people, but they forgot that there's a Passenger in the car who didn't bring this about, didn't. Cause it wasn't driving, you know, was involved in what was going on, but wasn't the driving force for this. And saying that we helped our people, when there's someone who's bleeding in the front seat, you know, that's not helping. And so I think we have to look at it that way. And I think that, I don't know, I have some opinions on this that I will try to maybe not be as harsh with. But I think at times it's easier and more measurable for a church to say we helped the addict get healthy than to help a betrayed spouse heal. I mean, I think that because of the traditional understanding that this is a man's issue and it's about being hypersexual or whatever, it's like it's easier to see how many men we can get to our men's group or to our Conquer Series or Sexual Integrity 101 course or whatever. But there's a lack of understanding around betrayal. We've talked about that on the podcast before. There can be a lack of understanding of betrayal, trauma and the impact it has specifically on women. And because we don't understand it as churches, we don't help in that area or reach out. And I think there's this huge demographic to your point, that we're not helping, we're not helping heal. And we gotta look at the partners too. So it has to be both. I think that's what success looks like. It's helping both the one who's driving the car and the passenger who got injured too.

Right. Because both have been injured by the accident. Yeah, absolutely. I think that it is super important for churches to offer something for the partners, even if they don't know what that's supposed to look like going in. But it's definitely within this family systems approach. It has to be a piece to the puzzle.

Well, I like the way too. You said that we have to be sympathetic towards both because they've both been injured. And I think even if we're talking to someone who is the addict and the struggler, yes, there is a point and parts that they need to take responsibility, ownership, they need to repent, they need to walk away from sin. Yes, all that's true. But there's also a part of that addict that is also wounded from their past, struggling with lies about what they believe about themselves. And if we only approach them as like, you're this bad person that made bad choices, just like the person who got into the accident. If we only approach them like, you should have driven better, and you should have known it was icy, so slow down. But ignore that they broke both their legs. We're only helping part of the equation of, like, okay, drive better next time. But they're also going, yeah, but I've got these broken legs. And I think the family systems approach kind of helps us step back and go, oh, okay. There's more than just bad behavior going on. There's more than just wrong moral choices. There's a system of things. And so that's the next question, Heather, is how does family systems model. How does that help us look beyond just the unwanted behavior or the addiction to all the factors that might be driving it?

Yeah, that's a great question, because it really does have to do with looking in our past to find these areas of woundedness or brokenness, whatever you want to call that, so that we can change. Not that we can change the event, but we can change the impact it has on us so that we can heal. And again, it's one of those things that, you know, some people may experience something that's like this big, huge, traumatic event, and once you know that about them, then it's like, oh, well, okay, this makes sense. But other people might experience something that maybe wasn't this big, giant thing, but was something that happened over and over and over. That seems like maybe the impact should be less, but yet, at the same time, it was something that wounded them to their core, created these lies that they now believe about themselves. And so now they have to work to reframe all of that and put it into a context that can help them find healing. And again, that really is one of the reasons why this whole family systems theory goes back to having to look at the family of origin and the way that whatever was happening there impacted you, Even if it only impacted you that way, it still is significant because it created this area in your life that really has perpetuated pain in your life. And so I think that that's one of the bigger things with this model is being able to look at that family of origin, everything that's there, so that you can find healing. Because really, you don't want the same dysfunction in your current family. Right? You want to be able to understand it, but also decide that, you know what, that really hurt me. And I want to make sure that I don't ever do that to my wife or to my kids. And so it empowers the person to not only make all these great Choices for their healing, but also decide that, you know what, my family right now, my current family, it's going to look different, and we're going to do things differently because we want health and wholeness for our family.

Yeah, I think it definitely gives us direction toward where to actually do the work. You know, like I mentioned before, I grew up in a family where I often felt like my needs weren't very important. And I grew up in a church culture that was like, you're just here to serve the church and serve the community and what you want, what you're passionate about, the needs that you have, those are secondary. And what I learned in that is that, well, if someone's going to take care of me, it's going to be me. And so. And you. I mean, those who, you know, have listened, like, that's part of my story, is just an over. I just go over and above on everything that I do. And that's just my tendency, because I believe at a core level that people don't care about my needs. And so I gotta make sure I get mine. And so for me, what's helpful is once I understood that, then I can start to understand, where did I learn those lies? Remember when I was 11 years old and I wanted to quit baseball? And my dad and my coach in the batting cage in the basement of my coach's house said, you're not gonna quit baseball. Why would you quit baseball? And I was like, oh, well, I guess I'm not quitting baseball. But in that moment, I learned my voice doesn't matter. My needs don't matter. It's what other people want from me, their expectations. And for me, that's helped me today because I can communicate that. Even going through some difficult times right now, the people around me who know that information, I've shared that with them, and they're aware of it. And that's helped me put plans in place and have conversations and be honest, where people can say to me, I know we're going through a hard time, but your needs do matter. I totally see how that. And in that, they're also able to help me not be this, like, you know, this glutton for all these things that I feel like I want or I need. And so it's. It's not only a way for me to understand why I do what I do, but also helps me put a plan in place with community around me to avoid the unwanted behaviors I don't want to do anymore.

Yeah. And a family systems model reminds us that the Behaviors are the outcomes of other things. And when we can get under the surface of, well, what are the other things? What are the wants, needs, desires, unmet longings? You know, to use some of the language of Dr. Kurt Thompson and his books, just about how we all have these needs and they're really God given, They're built into us to need others, to need relationship, to need to be seen and heard and valued. And ultimately we get that from him, but we also get it from one another. And I think the power of it in a coupleship or in a family is at that level, we're all very, very similar. And so when you and your spouse start to connect around, I really have a need to feel like my voice matters and the other person's gonna say, yeah, me too, I know how that feels. Now if we only focus on behaviors and say, well, when I'm feeling really alone, I act out in this way, they may be like, I just don't get you. Why would you do it? Because in their mind that's the last thing. But when they're feeling alone and rejected, they have maybe something else they reach out to. So if we compare or try to build connection around behaviors, we all have maybe very different reasons for why we go to what we do. But at that deeper level, the drivers of our needs and wants and desires, I think is where we really can connect. And we feel that sense of kinship of like, oh, we're actually a lot alike in some of these things. It's just the way we've learned to process and handle them are very different. But if we can connect there, I think we can become one another's ally or supporters in meeting those needs appropriately because we identify, oh, we have similar needs. How can we help one another meet those needs in ways that build our relationship, build our friendship and honor God in our lives?

Totally. So. And this is something that we're really passionate about and that's why we have this model as so central to what we do. But what are the potential downsides if only one spouse gets healthy or maybe even the kids, you know, don't get healthy and the spouse doesn't get healthy? What are the downsides of that situation where it can be really one sided?

Yeah, I think that it's true that when somebody, when one person engages in healing, it's automatically going to change the dynamic. It'll change that family dynamic. And specifically when you have one person who's pursuing healing and the other is not, it seems like it's going to get worse before it gets better. Now also keep in mind that when both people are pursuing healing together, it'll get worse before it gets better. But it just is one of those things that, that as one person begins this process really of transformation, it is going to impact the family to the point where they are either. The other spouse is either going to decide that, okay, this is something that I want to be a part of, or they are not going to want to be a part of it, and then they are going to leave the relationship. And so I think that it is important that we recognize that it is important for both spouses to get healing. And what this looks like is going to look different for each spouse. And the timing of it is usually going to be different too. So the person struggling usually will get into recovery group or something first, and then after a little while, the betrayed partner will get into a group or find some form of support. And that's fairly normal. But then at some point as they're pursuing healing, then they're going to become more at the same pace and get on track with each other and then start healing toward reconciliation. But it really is, even in those first few months because of that staggered. The staggered way that they even get into groups can cause issues. And then of course, for sure, if one is going to find healing and the other is not, then that usually is going to cause a big disruption in the relationship.

Yeah. And I want to speak to the person who is the one who's been the struggler or the addict, that if we're the one that we feel we're getting healthy because we're going to group and because we're doing the work, there is some self awareness that comes. And because we have this family systems model and awareness of what drives behavior, and we may become more aware not only of what's driving our behavior, but our spouses. And some of that might be accurate. But there is really a danger, what I would call a danger of arrogance, that when I'm feeling some progress, it's natural for me to notice my progress. And it feels good and it should. Like, man, I'm taking steps forward and I'm not doing those same old behaviors. And I think there's a human tendency to start to kind of shift our gaze to the other person and be like, well, what's wrong? How come you're not? And how come when you get triggered, you still yell at me? Or how come you still. And you. And that just is immediately going to work against not only our recovery, but our family system. And so if we're the one that's been a struggler, been the addict, and we're experiencing some healing, awesome. That's so good. But it also has a danger of making us maybe more aware of our healing and change than our spouses, because maybe they're healing too. But just as Heather said, maybe it's a little slower or maybe it's in a different part of their life first, or maybe they're healing some trauma and they're making really good progress there, which to us, we may not even really notice if we're the one that caused the trauma because they're not maybe able or ready to process it with us. We're just more focused on perhaps a negative behavior like anger or criticism. And if. If we just pick on that and go, oh, well, you're not changing, I am, it's really going to drive a wedge in the relationship. And so I just want to encourage you because I think both my wife and I would say we've been there where we feel like we're further ahead than the other person and we want to get critical of the other spouse's lack of progress or change. It's not productive. And so you really have to swallow your pride. Even if you think you're right, you have to swallow your words of, well, how come you. And continue to remember that the greatest benefit you can bring to relationship is to keep going. Because I guarantee you, no matter how much progress you've made, you are not yet Jesus. You still have work to do. You're not there. And we talk about this a lot, like, this is not an arrival mindset. This is a journey. And so you're always on the journey. And even if you feel like right now I'm 20 miles ahead of where they're at, well, great, make it 25, make it 30. Whatever it takes. Don't worry about their pace, because the other thing that happens is in. I think family systems are kind of designed this way. When someone feels pressure within the system kind of negatively pushing on them, it almost creates the opposite force of like, well, forget you. I am not doing that. And they become even more resistant to change. So I think we just have to trust what Heather said, that as I become healthier, it can create health in the system. And if I then try to force others into health, it's actually going to push them away. And so just stay humble, stay open, and pray that God would do a work through you to other people.

I think that that happens mostly when we feel the pain points or the rub of me getting healthy and this other person in our marriage not getting healthy. And I think that there's a reaction to your point. I think that that's why we tend to like, hey, you know, did you know that your dad used to do this when you were. And you respond because, like, and we do that because we're experiencing that pain. And I think in those moments it's actually a misunderstanding of what recovery and healing is for. It is not so that pain will go away, it's that we can manage it better when we feel it. And so I think that that's a good perspective to bring into that situation. If you are in this context where you're the only one in the family or in the marriage getting healthy, to know that the work that you're doing right now is actually supposed to help you manage those situations when your spouse doesn't act healthy in a better way, where you're not going to unwanted coping behaviors and you're not blame shifting and pointing the fingers. And so I think we need to remember that, that it's very natural to feel that way and react that way when there's the rub of the health and unhealth in a relationship. But to know that that's what recovery's for is to manage that in a better way.

Yeah. So you talked about a couple of these, Heather, but as we're talking about this family systems model, what are the opportunities that come when a couple or even the whole family is working towards healing and restoration together?

So I think there are a lot of opportunities when it comes to the couple deciding to pursue healing together, because not only does that strengthen their relationship, but also whatever they are going to do within their family system, they basically get to decide what that looks like. And again, we talked about how for a while when they are pursuing recovery and healing, that they might be at a different pace. But at some point it almost seems like they decide that we're going to do this together because we are better and stronger together. And, and we're going to do this so that our kids have a chance to not have to go through what we went through. And I think that that is one of the biggest things that happens when a family decides to get healing is the impact that it has on their family system and on their children, but then also on their bigger family system. Because we already talked about how sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. This is also true for the person. So for the person who struggles and their spouse, when they decide to get healing, it's going to disrupt their family of origin, which is kind of interesting on both sides. It is, absolutely. Because they have always worked within that other family system and have had very specific patterns of behavior, if you will, when it came to those other relationships. But as they pursue healing together, it probably is going to disrupt those external family relationships for a while. But the other great thing that happens is that it changes those relationships, too. And I really, I saw this happen in my relationship with my parents when I went through a divorce, but then when I went through counseling, because I was raised in a very conservative Baptist upbringing. And you don't get counseling. I mean, there isn't any problem in this world that Jesus in the Bible can't fix. And yet there was this big, huge issue that was killing me. And so I went to counseling. But the more that I learned, it changed my parents. It changed even their language and their perception. And I mean, it was really just an amazing God thing that happened. And so even though it was disruptive for a little while, because in a lot of ways, I was pushing against what I had been taught in my family of origin, but yet I was pushing back because I knew that there was a better way, there had to be a better way. And not that there was a better way than Jesus in the Bible, but there was more that I could do that would help me to get healthy so that then I could pass that on to my kids. Does that make sense?

Totally.

And so I see that being the same thing that could even happen when a couple decides to get healing is that there might be a little bit of backlash for a while in those other external relationships, but never minimize the power that change and health can do to an entire family system.

I think, too, you can make an argument that it extends past the family as well to, you know, we've had some of this experience. I, you know, I think of every time I think of Rodney and Tracy. Right? Because, you know, they're. Tracy is a clinician on staff. Rodney's our advancement specialist here. And they've been in healing and recovery for a long time and are healthy. I mean, in my opinion, they're very healthy. And watching them parent the way that they do and process the way that they do has been encouraging to Amy and I where we look at that and it's like, we want to be like that. And I think that when we get healthy together, this family systems approach, what happens is people see it, they see that it's attractive, and they want what you have. Like, how did you get here? And I've even seen it in my relationships where people who I thought would never get into group and never start the healing process have done that. And I've seen their marriages start to expand and start to see that both spouses are communicating their feelings and their kids are starting to do. And so it's been really cool just to see that because other people were healthy, it encouraged me to get healthier, me and my wife. And then as we've done that and just been naturally and organically in relationship with other people, that just kickstarts more healing for more people. So I think if we can lift our eyes a little bit sometimes, that's helpful and gives us more courage to keep going well.

And it's like we said earlier in the episode, that it's about interconnectedness, that all these things are connected and the goal isn't just to stop a bad behavior. I mean, yes, that needs to stop because that's a major part of where the pain and trauma is coming from. But in addition to that, it's to move towards health. And health is so much more than just not doing something. Health is how we communicate with one another. Health is our level of empathy and how empathy can grow when both couples are doing work and leaning in and understanding, you know, family of origin stuff and the lies they listen to and ways that we can actually support one another. Because it's really rooted in vulnerability and transparency that I think we long for, but many of us don't know how to get there. And the pure desire experience for so many couple is what kind of forced that level of vulnerability and transparency that they say, man, our relationship is better than it has ever been. Even though we went through the addiction, the affair, the whatever it was, the connection it creates is what is the opportunity. And so, yeah, in other ways, it will change the system around you and make some of your maybe extended family relationships harder because you'll have better boundaries and better clarity of what we do or don't put up with. But within your coupleship, I think there becomes just this bond of like we are with each other. We know one another better than anyone else in the world and we've got each other's backs. And like I said, I think it's what we really long for. We just don't always know how to get there. But when we both do the work, that's a beautiful opportunity that exists.

Yeah. So we've covered this in a number of different podcasts, but it's worth bringing up here. When we use this family systems model and really, only one person in the family wants to get healthy or is willing to get healthy. Can we still help them even though we adopt this model? Let's just say the family doesn't want to get healthy and this one person does. Is there still healing available from pure desire? For that person?

Yeah. For the one person who wants to get healing, absolutely. Yeah. And it's one of those things too. I think that when you start the process of recovery and healing, it really can be unpredictable in a lot of ways. But one of the great things about that unpredictability is that it usually turns out better than you expect. And I think that I'll often have men at conferences come up and say, you know what, I've been in group for this long and I really want my, my wife to get healing, but she's totally resistant. Is there a book I can bring her or something like that that might help? And I usually say, well, you know what, here's an idea. Because that person who just caused her so much pain is probably not the person that's going to help her. But yet if there was somebody else, if there was like the pastor's wife or a woman pastor who could reach out to her or something like that, that might be a better approach. But absolutely, if only one person is gonna embark on their healing journey, do it, do it. And just leave the outcome up to God, because he knows.

I always like to say, yeah, I have a book for that, but it's a book for you. It's called Helping Her Heal and it's a workbook for you to go through. Or I'll say you could read this great book called Aftershock that will help you understand what discovery of your pornography issue made her feel. Or you could read this great book called the Body Keeps the Score. That will help understand how much she has internalized this pain. And if you could just keep engaging with what is she experiencing, that's the best book you can read. So I will recommend those to people. I do think it's also helpful here to think about the kind of metaphor we're using, because I think sometimes we feel like a healthy family system is like an engine, and systems and engine kind of sound similar. And in an engine, all the parts have to be working properly for the engine to run right. It doesn't matter if five of my six valves in my six valve engine are perfect and if one of them is trash, my engine won't work if I have a trash valve. And I think we might feel that way in our Family, like, well, until we're both healthy, it's dysfunctional. It's like, well, that's really not the best metaphor. I think of, like, the diet we choose to eat is a better illustration that if I make some healthy choices, even if at the end of the day I eat a bowl of ice cream, those healthy choices are still overall doing me good. They're creating more nutrients for my body. They're probably better calories for me, not empty calories from sugar. And so if you think of it that way in your marriage, if you have a healthier version of you, you're like infusing some health into the system, that even if there is still some unresolved anger, some unforgiveness, bitterness, whatever you feel is there. I think of the scripture verse that says love covers over a multitude of sin, that if there is the love of Christ really oozing out of us because of what we're learning, it can cover over a lot of negative stuff still happening in our family. And whether that's your marriage or with your kids or with relatives and all that, as I've already said, a healthier you is just better for everyone. And so keep moving towards that, even if you feel like, well, there's some unhealth over here, that that unhealth is not going to keep the engine from functioning until it's all perfect. So I just think sometimes people get into that again. It's that arrival mentality of, well, when we're healthy, when one day we're both healthy, this will all be better. And it's like, you know what? You're never both going to be perfect. So just keep working on your health. And at whatever pace they're going, when they turn the corner, when they start getting healthier, then they'll be infusing their health into the system and that'll be good, too.

I'm sorry, all I heard was that I could have a bowl of ice cream tonight.

Hey, if you make enough of the right choices. That's what dietitians say. It's not the ice cream in and of itself. It's bad. It's all the other stuff around it, that it's usually a lifestyle. Right, got it.

I think with this question, I think a lot of people use that excuse. I mean, in fairness, when we're starting recovery, you can find any excuse you want to kind of help you from stepping into doing the difficult work. But I think the reality of nothing will change unless something changes. So your system right now that you're in isn't working. Well, yeah, maybe it's not ideal that just you are starting to get healthy, but at least it's something. It's some movement in a right direction. And when that changes, that opens the door to maybe future change. And so I think it's just. That's the encouragement I think I would give to someone who is maybe looking for a reason to not step in, even though they need to do it anyway, it's going to be worth it for you. And I think sometimes that means that a marriage doesn't last. And we've seen that happen. But that doesn't mean that your recovery and health isn't worth the effort that it takes, whether you're a betrayed partner or an addict.

So, Heather, how can an understanding of a family systems model help all of us be a support to those around us who might be going through recovery? And I don't just mean our spouse. I mean as group members or church members or friends. How does that family systems model help us be aware of what we can do to support others?

Yeah, that's a great question. Because I think sometimes, especially if we have a situation where a person who struggles is in the recovery process and the spouse maybe isn't, I think sometimes just recognizing that this all works better from a family systems approach and to just be encouraging and empathetic to that person's situation, but also recognize that at some point it's likely that the spouse might come on board. And just even in the language that you use toward that spouse, I think that that's important because sometimes we end up being dismissive. Right. That even if, I mean, I've been in betrayal groups where the wife is getting healing but the husband is not. And sometimes we behave indifferent or dismissive of the husband when really, I don't think that that is the best approach. It's more looking at, well, you know what, he came from his own family system and he has pain and woundedness that needs to be sorted out. And we're going to continue to pray that he decides to get into recovery. But until then, then we're going to work on your healing that that's why you're here and this is going to be the best thing for you. But I've seen that play out sometimes, and just being sympathetic and empathetic in those situations, I think is huge.

Yeah, I think it helps in how we encourage people, you know, as we see our friends, family members, people in our community struggle or their marriages struggle, I think this can help them, help us encourage them with like digging into our past and creating more awareness and emotional awareness. And, you know, a great word that I hear used often in this realm is just curiosity. You know, I've explored that with my therapist. I've read, you know, people and they talk about this curiosity toward our story, toward our family of origin, toward why we do what we do and that. And it's really a compassionate curiosity where you start to explore all of this. And I think that that's what, for me, the family systems model has helped me understand is that I can encourage people and give them permission to explore what's going on in their story and trust that they're going to do that work. And if they do, it'll be fruitful. But it helps me rather than just saying like, well, you need to just stop doing that or you need to go love your wife better or take her out on a date. It's like, those are all good things. But that's not going to actually bring about the change that people want when they're struggling in these areas.

Yeah, I heard a speaker at camp one summer say that bruised reeds and smoldering wicks don't wear signs. He's referring to that verse about Jesus that says, a bruised read, he will not despise, a smoldering wick, he will not put out. And he just told stories about how people are all walking through very unique kinds of pain or difficulty or struggle. And they don't wear signs that say, hey, my wick is about to go out. Don't put it. And I think if we just see someone and assume like, oh, well, they seem to be so happy. And I've heard their husband has been in group for six months. They're doing great. It's like, well, maybe that's just a show, a front they're putting on because they don't know what else to do. They don't know how to come up at church and be like, I'm at my wits end, what to do with my husband or my wife. And so I think just giving people permission to have their own story and to be at their own place in the journey and validate that that's okay. And asking people that question of how are you doing? Really, I know your spouse has their own journey, but how are you doing? And what can I do for you? What kind of support do you need? Because whether they're the struggler or the spouse, they may be in the thick of something pretty hard. And if we don't take the time to ask, we just Assume because, you know, the optics from the outside look good. We may really miss opportunities to support, encourage. And I think the same thing. If that's our spouse we're talking about, we shouldn't just assume like, oh, I think things are good. Like, are we really taking time? Especially if we're maybe beyond those first few months of recovery. Maybe we've kind of found some new equilibrium. Don't just assume everything's good, like at least weekly. You need to have some time where you can sit down as a couple, really clear away the distractions and just ask of each other, how are you doing? Really? You know, and maybe use something like the Thanos exercise or even a high point, a low point and a need. What's something I can be doing for you? Just to allow one another to share what's going on under the surface. Because I think when we create that connection or when we're looking for opportunities to provide that support for others, that's really what we're after. Here is an awareness that the whole system has been impacted and we want to care for every person in the system. And the only way to do that is really to take time and ask and find out what's going on. So yeah, just make sure you honor every person's story and look to support them wherever they're at.

Yeah. The family systems model is just so central, really, the more that we talk about it, the more conversations around it, it makes so much sense. And I think what I'm hoping that people walk away from, from this series, this foundation series, more specifically this episode, is that without understanding our family of origin and the system we grew up in, and without really impacting our system we're in now with healing, restoration can't happen. It's not possible. At least long lasting restoration. And though this doesn't happen in every situation, restoring families is what we're after. Like that's the goal, that's what we're shooting for. So head, thanks for closing out the series with us and for your time. Appreciate it.

Yeah, this was a great conversation.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or are a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. Thanks for joining this recovery and healing journey. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.