291- Breaking Isolation w/ Chandler Rogers

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello there, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 291 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumpo.

All by myself. Don't want to live by everybody now myself.

A lot of vibrato in there anymore. Gosh. For those who've been listening, you know that when Nick tends to get loud in his intros, Justin tends to get irritated. So. Hey, pal, how you doing over there? Okay. Oh, scale of one to two. It's a two. Got it. Okay. So today we got to hang out with Chandler Rogers, who's the co founder and CEO of Relay, which is an app that helps people breaking out of isolation. And we thought, you know what? Why not talk to him about breaking out of isolation?

Yeah. And it seems like that sound clip, that song is played in the kind of low moment of every movie where the character is all by themselves and no one to help and feeling down in the dumps. And I think just a good depiction of what can happen in isolation, where we get stuck in these negative patterns of how we feel about ourselves in the world, and we often don't have the language or the resources to know. How do I express to others what I'm going through and find people that can be a support to me in the journey, which we all need. It's why Pure Desire has made groups really the foundational element of recovery, because we feel like outside of connection with other human beings who can relate to our story, who can support us, we're not going to make the lasting change we need to. And so I think today was a great episode to talk about that, to unpack what isolation is all about, and really to hear more about a new app that can be a part of people being proactive to stay in relationship connection, choosing vulnerability. And I really think people will get a lot out of this conversation.

Totally. It is a good conversation. You guys are going to like Chandler for sure. You know, Nick, another way to join a team or get involved or be a part of something is to be a member of what we call team 58 here at Pure Desire. And whether you're just starting recovery or. Or you've been through the recovery process and you've. You're 10 years, 20 years in, this is still an opportunity to have really a shared experience of helping pass along healing to other people. Why don't you tell people a little bit about Team 58.

Yeah.

Yeah. And Team 58 comes from Isaiah 58, where God says through the prophet that as people honor God, that their healing will come quickly, their salvation will break forth like the dawn, and that some of them will become those who rebuild the fallen walls and restore the broken cities. And so we've taken hold of that imagery to say, you know, as God brings healing to us, some of us will be called to feel like we're a part of paying that healing forward, of helping others rebuild their lives, restore their marriages. And that's one part of that is the financial component of paying that healing forward to help others by monthly support to Pure Desire. And so we've now got over 200 people that are a part of our monthly support. And it really just helps us together accomplish things that we can't do and alone. And so it's meant a lot. And then we really do. We mean it when we call it a team because we create monthly connection opportunities, quarterly zoom calls, just ways that we communicate to our team members that we don't communicate to everyone publicly. So it's a way that you can further your sense of ownership and belonging with Pure Desire being a part of this mission, but also to use what God has done in your life to hopefully take that into someone else's healing as well. So we'd encourage you to consider jumping in on team 58. You've maybe heard me talk about it before. If you're not a part of the team yet, we'd love to have you join. It's. It's an honor to be a part of that team with everyone and yeah, it's just an opportunity that we have to do some things together.

Yeah, absolutely. So if you would like to become a financial donor on a monthly basis and join team 58, you can go to PureDesire.org give a couple things before we get into our time with Chandler, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. This full episode is also up on YouTube, so make sure to check that out, share that with your friends, and then follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi and with that, here's our time with the co founder and CEO of Relay, Chandler Rogers, on Breaking Isolation. Chandler Rogers, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, bro. Great to have you.

Hey, man. Good, good to be here with you guys.

Yeah, Chandler and I, well, we met at the summit, right, last year and I had heard you'd been pestering our groups team about your app and everything that was going on, and it was cool to Connect. Gotten to do some, some reconnaissance, if you will, on some of the episodes you've been on and other podcasts and yeah, man, we just wanted to have you on because this is something that you and your organization are about and finding really how this connects to our audience. And so we wanted to talk about breaking isolation, what it looks like, because this is such a big piece to the recovery journey. But before we kind of get into all of that, some of our listeners may not be familiar with you or your company. So will you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background and then also a little bit about Relay.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I guess the story with Relay and with my background goes back to my early childhood. I was the oldest of five kids. I grew up in a really faith filled Christian family with parents who did an awesome job at trying to help us learn how to be good people and good disciples of Christ. And I think from an early age, being the oldest, we also moved around a lot. Growing up, I felt a lot of pressure to perform in different areas of my life and to be, I guess, someone that lived up to the expectations that I felt were kind of there from my parents and from our church community and, and from just different angles. And I remember early on, like we had pretty open talks in our household about healthy sexuality and, and specifically like avoiding pornography and, and the dangers there and you know, talked to a lot of friends who that wasn't the case for them and it felt like it was something that was never talked about and, and was a taboo topic. I actually felt like it was something we talked about often enough that wasn't like scary or anything. But I remember like when I first was exposed to pornography and masturbation, I was thinking my first year of high school, so like 14 years old, and I think I just didn't really understand, I guess, or like map the dots in my head of like what was happening and like the thing that we had talked about growing up and what I sincerely didn't want in my life. And I think it started to develop into a habit before I really realized what was kind of going, going on or generating awareness that hey, this is actually kind of bad or I didn't want this. I felt like it was already kind of compulsive or tough to break out. Like my first few attempts to kind of leave it behind me weren't really successful. And I remember feeling a lot of shame and this was something that I kept to myself. But I reflected a lot on like, you know, how could I Be struggling with this. I must be a terrible person. I'm letting God down. I'm surely letting my parents down. If they knew, if my siblings knew. Like, you know, people who struggle with this have to be broken and terrible people. And I think I had a lot of these cognitive distortions and misconceptions early on that really started to weigh on my relationship with God and my relationship with people around me. And I think this is where the theme of isolation started to creep in for me because it started to be this really vicious cycle where, you know, all those feelings made me only want to, you know, keep it to myself more. And, and instead what I, what I did was just like, you know, I'm, I'm someone who's, when I put my mind to it in school or sports growing up, I was able to be pretty successful. And I was like, why not this, right? And so there was a cycle for probably a couple years there in high school where it was basically just like white knuckling with more willpower. And I remember like this relationship almost of like the harder I tried to white knuckle with these same kind of thought patterns, the worse the problem got. And again that kind of compounded then to feeling more shame and feeling like more isolated and more kind of hate towards myself. And so I don't know like exactly how this happened, but at some point I think my mom kind of felt like something was off and did approach me. I was in my junior year, so like 16 years old and she kind of asked me like, hey, is we talked about kind of pornography and stuff growing up. Has that been something that you've ever struggled with? There's been an issue for you, like, hope, you know, that we can talk about it if it has. And I decided to be honest with her and we had a great conversation and from there was kind of like, okay, now it's like out in the open. But what was interesting about this theme of isolation is I still didn't really bring her into my support system and like leave the theme of isolation completely just because we had this one like disclosure type conversation. The day to day kind of recovery journey from there was still almost exactly identical to before that conversation. Like I wasn't super honest with her. We didn't really have another one of those conversations for a while. And I think my early, I guess, misconception there was that just talking to someone was getting out of isolation and why, I think that's a great first step and we can dive into this more, you know, if you want Like I felt like I was less isolated, but then realized that I was still falling into the same patterns. Totally. So yeah, I eventually found a local group based program. My mom actually suggested it to me and I decided to give it a try because I realized just kind of analyzing the previous few years of trying to quit, realized that it wasn't actually working well at all. And so I knew that this group would actually be with guys who were kind of like young adult, like somewhat my age. And I was, I was open to the idea of like, like not doing this alone anymore. Even though I didn't know what it meant and it definitely felt a little scary. I jumped into that and I think that's really where things started to change for me, where I didn't just start telling people what was going on, but I started to figure out how to work together with other people. And it was these guys from my group. It was actually starting to bring my parents and my, my church leaders into the journey a little bit more. And not just a single conversation, but I noticed these themes kind of fast, fast forward over the years with my experience in groups, I started to see a pattern too of like how just showing up at group and even trying to stay connected with these guys between our meetings, which for us it was Thursday nights once a week. Like there's a difference between just trying to checking the boxes there versus really putting in the work to avoid isolation and have deep meaningful connection with them and with my whole support system. And eventually kind of how Relay came about was just realizing like it is really hard to avoid these pitfalls of isolation. Even for people that have committed and decided to join a program or to get help in a deeper, more meaningful way. It can still be so easy to avoid real meaningful connection. And where Relay kind of came about, we were just a few friends that I talked to about this in college. The three of us were like, you know, what if there were a tool that made it easier for people to stay connected once they have had those conversations? They do know some people in real life, whether it's their group or a few friends or family members. What if there was a tool that actually kind of helped semi automate and make it a little easier to have a deep and meaningful support system seven days a week.

That's cool.

And that's how Relay started.

Yeah, it's really awesome. I love in your story you said this was something your family did talk about. So kudos to your parents for having those open conversations and at least establishing some health of this is an Area that needs to be talked about in order for us to grow and to change. And you've already helped us dive into the topic. But we really want to focus on how do we break out of isolation and. And how does even technology help us do that? So before we go too far, I think many people might feel like they understand what we mean when we say isolation, but let's just be clear. What do we mean when we say someone is in isolation or getting stuck in isolation? How would you define that?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think back to what I would describe it as in my personal experiences and talking with other people. I think it often feels like we are guarding ourselves from someone or something where there's a lot happening in this world inside of our head that almost no one, probably outside of ourselves, knows really what that world is like and what we're thinking and feeling and experiencing. I think it can look like being surrounded with a lot of friends and people you love and having relationships. Like, I can be, you know, hanging out with groups of friends and attending my group meetings. And I'm married, right? So, like, hanging out with my wife. But I can still be guarding myself from a layer of authenticity and connection by, I guess, like, almost a sense of survival and trying to keep myself safe by reserving whatever thoughts, feelings, beliefs, experiences to myself and not kind of bringing those people in my circles into that world.

Yeah. Author and speaker Ian Morgan Cron, who's an Enneagram expert. I've heard him say that there's a difference between transparency and vulnerability. Transparency is sharing, but vulnerability is inviting people in. And I think that isolation is. I love that you said that. You can kind of have this COVID isolation where you're still around people and in community, but you're not actually being vulnerable and sharing what's going on and inviting those people into it in a way that they're giving you feedback and able to explore that with you as well. But I also think, and this has just been my experience, that I can even isolate from my own self in the sense of, like, I have this shame or this pain that I'm feeling. And instead of addressing that and thinking through it and processing, you know, even by myself, I can just isolate from that, too. I can binge Netflix or I can dive into a book or exercise or even pornography, masturbation, all of that. And so I think that isolation. Yeah, I just know for me, isolation can be pulling away from being vulnerable with other people, but then also pulling away from feeling the feelings that I have going on and Being able to process them.

Yeah. The only thing I would add to that is I think isolation is also driven, and you mentioned these, that there's typically some very negative messages going on in our thinking of if, if others knew these things about me, they would reject me or I feel bad about what's going on. And so I don't really want to share these things. I'd prefer people only see the cleaned up version of me. I don't want to reveal these things that make me look bad or maybe feel embarrassed or stupid, or I'm fearful of their reaction, that they might be angry or disappointed. And all of that is a part of what drives isolation and keeps us not only from transparency, but the vulnerability you're talking about because those messages can be so powerful. So we want to be clear to say that isolation doesn't mean you're alone because it's very possible to be alone, but not in isolation because you're choosing some alone time for solitude, for reflection. But it's also possible to be around a lot of people and be in isolation because no one really knows what's going on. And so we've got to kind of look at that deeper factor of what's driving me into isolation.

Yeah. Chandler, the heart of your app is really helping people break out of isolation and stay connected to their community. And you've mentioned that could be friends, family, spouse, church community, things of that nature. In the area of sexual brokenness, why is isolation so damaging?

Yeah, well, I think you kind of touched on it almost with, with that insight around how there's this layer, first of isolating from ourselves, why do we turn to these behaviors that we don't want to engage in? Well, oftentimes in a lot of the psychology and research out there points to our brain feels pain and we're seeking for a way to escape or relieve from that pain. And oftentimes there's not an awareness or skills to be able to effectively manage those stressors and triggers and to really keep ourselves managing in a healthy place. And so I think for me, I feel like for a long time and I'm still learning this, I wasn't aware of the stressors and triggers that were going on in my life. I didn't notice feeling like I was super depressed or feeling super lonely or super rejected or stressed. But I think in a lot of ways there were micro examples of all of those things and how I was feeling that I just didn't even know. And I think subconsciously I was trying to push those away because like you brought up, I wanted to project that positive, cleaned up image to other people, but I think also to myself. Like, I had this belief that, no, I'm a person that does what he says he's going to do and makes good choices and achieves what he wants to. And, and so subconsciously I think I was crowding out those stressors and those triggers and I had no awareness or ability of how to, like, address them and not just pretend they don't exist. And so I think what makes it so difficult then is all of a sudden I'm, I'm slipping up or it feels like out of nowhere I'm just turning to pornography and it's compulsive and I can't break it. Well, if there's no awareness because we've crowded out with that kind of isolation with ourselves and with others, how are we going to be able to address kind of up the funnel before it turns into seeking the behavior to act out? I'm not going to give the psychology lesson on every detail on how it works, but I think it is that principle of, like, it is really hard to manage the various elements of recovery if we're out of tune with others and ourselves and if we're not bringing people in.

I mean, that was a good summary, even if you're not governed at all well.

And isolation keeps us blind to our true needs. As you think about recovery, our true need isn't simply to be free of a behavior or to avoid pornography or to make good choices. I mean, those things are valuable, but what we truly need. We've talked a lot about Dr. Kurt Thompson and his phrases about we're all born looking for someone, looking for us, and that never changes. We, we all have these needs to feel safe, soothed, secure, and those are ongoing human needs that are operating underneath this level of just being free of a behavior. And so our need isn't just for freedom, it's the need for connection. And we've quoted also Johann Hari on a lot of these podcasts who says the opposite of addiction is connection, that what we're really after is those meaningful relationships where we feel safe, seen, soothed, secure. And so that only comes through breaking out of isolation, not simply, as you were saying in your story, Chandler, to just white knuckle it, to try not to do it. Well, so many of us have been there and tried that, and we realized, well, maybe we don't realize, but as we look back, we can see it was unsuccessful because all we were trying to do was avoid a Behavior without actually recognizing what was needed instead of. And that's all about connection and relationship.

Yeah, I think with my understanding of it is that shame really breeds isolation and isolation breeds more shame. And so it's a self perpetuating cycle of I feel shame for a behavior that I'm doing, which, you know, we know from even our conversation now is a way to medicate pain I'm feeling in life. So I go to this behavior, then I feel shame, which makes me want to pull away from people. The pulling away from people tends to elevate the pain in my life. And then I feel more shame, act out, do. And it's just the cycle that goes on and on and on. And it's one of those things that if you're not able to break out of isolation and start connecting with, you know, and in our context, that's why pure desire groups are the center of what we do is because it's a place where you can be real, you can process what's happened in your family of origin and your history and can unpack why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I think that that's why isolation can be so damaging because it keeps you from actually getting out of the cycle that just perpetuates itself. Itself.

Yeah, totally.

So, you know, we're talking a lot about that. Isolation obviously has a lot of negatives and it keeps us from connection. So to. To just unpack that a little more. Chandler, what are some of the other negative effects of isolation? What is it doing to us if we're routinely finding ourselves stuck in that.

Yeah, well, I think you brought up a really interesting one about how, like what, like what is our actual goal with recovery? It's hopefully not just to rid ourselves of the specific behavior, but actually to move towards this life of healing and growth and filling it with. With all of these different positive things. And I think isolation can lead us to think that that isn't actually the goal, that I can hopefully just escape from the bad thing. And it's still not bringing me anywhere closer to any of those good things that you talked about. So I think the dangers is actually really misleading about what the true purpose of recovery is and the real opportunity and blessing that I think a full recovery journey can bring, which is all of these, I think real growth and healing opportunities and chances for God to teach us and bring us new things into our life that if we let this cycle of shame and isolation perpetuate, I think it's just really hard to maintain sight of what we're really after. And. And with the number of people I've talked to, friends and other people that I care about that I've struggled with this. It's just really sad to see the effect that that then takes on, like, their mindset and what they expect of themselves or hope for their lives, because they just become used to, like, feeling like they don't have that safety. They don't have the. The feelings of authentic and vulnerable and transparent connection that breeds these other positive experiences in our life. And so, yeah, I think all of those things just lower our sights of really what recovery can bring for us.

Yeah, I think. I mean, it can bring hopelessness, it can bring depression. There's stuff that is obviously diagnosable, but I know that a lot of this can create situations like that with people. I think it also damages our relationship, not just with ourselves and other people, but also with the Lord. And I think, and this is so true in my life, that if I'm feeling bad about myself and I don't like me, it's easy for me to project that onto the Lord. Like, I know that he loves me and everything, but he's just putting up with me because of what Jesus did. He doesn't actually love me. And so I think that.

How close can you feel to him when you're thinking that way and feeling that way? Like, it's almost impossible to feel close 100%.

And I think that with that, when that isolation happens from other people and from the Lord, we're not getting fresh and, like, reality input from outside ourselves. We get stuck into our own thoughts and our own patterns and our own way of seeing and observing the world. And so I just. It just perpetuates more of what I already think about myself rather than allowing the Lord to speak into it and to his people to speak into it. So I think those are other damaging aspects of isolation.

Yeah, that's what I wrote down is the word blind spots. That when we're in isolation, we're not able to see what we're missing. Sometimes it's lies we believe about ourselves and our value and worth and identity. Sometimes it might be lies we believe about God and how he feels about us. Because so many of these lies are rooted in that trauma, those things that happened earlier in life where we've internalized messages. And if we're in isolation, we haven't been able to speak them out in a community where others can say. And. And this is what I think is so beautiful about group, when we'll Say something out loud and we maybe hear ourselves say it for the first time and realize, wow, I actually believe that. Or other times we say it and it's not until someone says it back to us. Now comment like suit, you're saying you believe that you know, when you do this, God is angry and you know, they, they say in a way it's like, wow, I've never thought of. Yeah, I believe that. So those blind spots just get perpetuated because we, we can't see what we can't see. And if we hold that inside and are isolated, no one can help. And God gives us other people to help for those very purposes. And so when we're trapped in those blind spots, I do think it makes us very susceptible to all of the rationalization or minimization or excuses that we've all used that causes us to go back to those unhealthy behaviors, to seek out pornography or whatever is kind of our vice because we're caught in those blind spots. And so then the behaviors that we're choosing make more sense, like, well, you know, because I'm trash, I might as well do this, or because no one cares, I'll do this, or yeah, and until we break out of that, we're just going to continue stuck in some of those same self defeating cycles.

Yep. Yeah. For some reason, I know the reason, the words of Jay Stringer, friend of ours, an author of Unwanted talks about that, that we perpetuate these addictive or unwanted behaviors because they're just proving to us that we are as dirty and terrible as we think we are. It's just a way to perpetuate our own self.

Belie.

Okay, so I think with under. I mean it's clear for even from our conversation isolation can be so damaging and be such a huge hurdle when it comes to recovery and healing from sexual brokenness. So to better understand that what are some signs that we are starting to pull away and are starting to isolate from the Lord, from other people, from ourself.

Yeah, I think almost going through those different layers and looking at your relationship with yourself, and then maybe your relationship with the Lord and then maybe your relationship with others, and maybe asking some of those questions or kind of thinking about some of those themes that we've been discussing already, like with myself, like, is it, is it possible that I'm experiencing feelings or having thoughts that I've been either subconsciously or consciously pushing away, not addressing, not really dealing with, like, are there beliefs that if I were to say them out loud, like thoughts about myself, would someone I love probably say that that's silly or. Or, like, why would I think that? Like, would they find that probably, like, alarming or. Or just not true? Um. Cause I think for me, like, before I even had the courage to really start having some of these more vulnerable connection experiences with others, almost playing the tape in my mind and realizing, like, yeah, my wife probably wouldn't agree with me that I'm trash or that nobody cares, but those are the thoughts that have been going on about this relationship with myself. And so almost starting to, like, do this inventory of, like, am I having some of these thoughts that maybe, like, don't make sense? Or, like, are there these evidences that I'm probably, like, pushing some of these things away and not wanting to deal with them? And then I think, likewise with. With God and with other people, like, how. How safe do I feel? Like, as I think about those different relationships, do I feel like I have that sense of safety? Do I feel like I am letting people fully in? Like, even for me, it helps to think about kind of practical moments and thinking about how honest have I actually been with maybe the one or two or three people that I have kind of chosen or pre committed that I do want to have a really vulnerable, authentic connection, deep, rich, like, relationship with. And just thinking about the last little bit, like, how honest have I really been about the ups, the downs, the thoughts, like, everything with them. And sometimes it's not just like, I'm. It may be for most people, it may not be that we're just intentionally withholding, but maybe we're kind of subconsciously choosing kind of an easier path as opposed to making time or creating opportunities to even do that. Like, you brought up the example of, like, it's probably easier to go turn on Netflix as opposed to, like, maybe I do need to spend an hour just having a more deep and raw conversation with my significant other to tonight to even get to that place. But subconsciously, my brain knows that that is uncomfortable. And Netflix feels easy, and so I'm going that way. So I think kind of looking at those patterns in your life can help identify, like, are we choosing that easier path of escape versus in these different relationships, are we choosing to create that type of connection?

Yeah.

Yeah. What I thought about is how isolation is really kind of the outcome of a path. And the question, well, where can that path start? I think for a lot of people, it starts with small things. Something where maybe we click on clickbait and we know it's sexually inappropriate and it Was quick and we get off, but we just feel stupid. And, like, that was just a small thing. I'm not gonna tell anyone. And over time, those small things start to accumulate because, well, we didn't tell anyone about that. And then about the next thing and the next thing. And now we're in isolation where there's these parts of us people just don't know. So having that awareness fight, I just need to keep a clean slate, I think is a big deal. Another sign, I think we're moving towards isolation. We might hear ourselves saying, I don't want to bother them. It's not that big of a deal. I'll handle it on my own. Maybe I'll share it later. I just don't want to bother them. Well, now we're thinking through kind of the wrong lens and missing how important this is for me and my health. And if people have said, I'm here for you, I care about you. I want to be a part of your journey, it's not bothering them, and we need to get over that voice. And then the last thing I just thought about is if. If we find we're not ever being intentional, as you were saying, Chandler, to have those conversations with people we've committed to, and we're just kind of going through the motions. We're doing life, and we're ignoring a lot of things as opposed to saying, hey, I need some time to connect with you. Making our weekly phone calls like we talk about with group or even being in a group, to just have intentional places where the goal of this conversation is vulnerability. Because I think for a lot of us, and I raise my hand and say, I'm in this category, if I'm not intentional, it's hard for me to choose vulnerability. It's just easier to avoid and be like, I'm just not going to bring it up. And I think a lot of us, that's just a reality of our human nature. So I think we have to be intentional to have those places where the goal of the conversation is vulnerability.

Yeah. In my experience, and I can tell you this happens often, even now that I've been in recovery for as long as I have, if I feel prompted to share something, like, I know something, maybe, you know, my three circles, or I feel like it's something that's going on emotionally, I need to share with somebody, I feel prompted to share it, and I'm like, or not. That's me isolating. Like, that's the first sign. Okay. Like, I clearly, there might be shame, fear of Judgment, whatever it may be, that's already there. To me, that's like an indicator on the dashboard saying, okay, there's something going on here. You do actually need to share this and need to unpack what's going on. And for me, that at this point, you know, I'm not in a group currently, but it looks like texting, you know, Justin's a part of the group, but I've got a group of four other guys that I text. Like, here's what's going on. And oftentimes I do get like a wow, that's great, thanks for sharing. And honestly, like, it's funny because I never actually get the judgment that I'm afraid I'm going to get. You know what I mean? Ever. No one is ever just like, oh, wow, that's awful. Yeah, you, thanks for telling us. You should probably figure that out. Like, no one does that. Justin is here, producer in the background, creeping. You know that's true. Don't pretend that's not true. But I think that that for me is the biggest indicator if I feel prompted that this is something I need to share and invite someone else into, but I am adverse to that and try to pull away from that. That for me is the first sign of isolation.

So at this point, maybe a lot of our listeners are feeling a little bad about their isolation and they're tempted to isolate because they don't want to share that with anyone about feel that I get stuck in isolation. And I think we've really unpacked a lot of the dangers of it. So let's turn the corner and think more about growth and health and change. So along those lines, Chandler, what are some tips or steps that you would encourage people to take to break out of isolation?

Yeah, well, I think, I think with anything really difficult, like, I think it's important to recognize with this, knowing how to break outta isolation and developing that, that ability to stay in a healthy zone that that doesn't regress back into isolation is a skill that is difficult, that probably most adults or people in the world are still learning or have not mastered. And so I think first and foremost, like I've, I've tried to remind myself over and over, like I need to have self compassion and some acceptance that, you know, this, this is a skill that I need to work at and probably won't perfect just by listening to one podcast episode and then willing it.

To be different tomor it was this podcast episode, Chandler. And then it will change your life.

In the which case you all should get it perfect by tomorrow.

That's right.

I'm just kidding.

Yep, game changer.

But I think, I think that kind of compassion is a really important foundation to working on this. So that when it doesn't go well, it doesn't fuel that pattern of shame where it's like, crap, I'm, I'm doing it well. I guess I'm just too weak to like, make the right choice and like, break out of isolation, like, anyway. So I think that's like step one. Another thing that came to my mind, Nick, as you were talking about creating these intentional places where the goal of the conversation is vulnerability and is connection. I think having that kind of a setting to practice in can be really helpful because often it's really easy to recognize or a lot easier to recognize in other people before ourselves. Like when I start to see someone else, like, giving off these cues, like they're withholding and don't want to be vulnerable, or they're starting to choose to be vulnerable, or they're maybe reflecting about the past week and talking about some of these self beliefs or just these various evidences that they've been isolating. And it's really easy for me to spot, well, like, that's happening. Like, I can clearly see like kind of the unhealthy patterns in someone else. And I think it has helped me, like, to have those settings where I'm able to recognize, oh, like, I probably do it similar or like, that's maybe how like, it looks like for me. And so I think building awareness is a really important skill just to even know when like, it's starting to happen and to like, increase the speed at which we start to become aware that it's happening. And so I think by practicing in these intentional conversations, which I think group is maybe one of the best settings to do, that I think we can start to see in others and then eventually kind of in ourselves, like, basic awareness on where this might be happening. And I think the power of awareness is really great. Once we're aware, we're so much more capable, I think, of addressing and managing it. And so maybe then just to finish off the, the tips for like, okay, I'm aware now what do I do? Like, I notice I'm starting to isolate in the moment or that maybe for these past couple of days I've been starting to move into a place of isolation. What do I do? I've noticed for me, one really effective way to ease in, ease into breaking out of isolation, or I guess easing out of isolation is to Practice in a lower stakes context that isn't about addiction. So like if I need to start being more vulnerable because I've been isolating like with my wife, instead of just being like, hey babe, I want to talk to you about like that like something that happened yesterday while I was on my computer. Like here's all the like negative lies I've been telling myself. Like I'll instead first start by just like having a more vulnerable conversation about, you know, asking her how she's feeling, like what's, you know, what, what's been difficult about her day recently and letting her have the chance to ask those questions to me. Just to create a setting that starts to introduce a little bit of more depth in our connection, I find that that then opens the door and I feel a lot safer to then take it even another layer deeper. If it's more sensitive things that maybe are related to my recovery journey by first kind of starting and practicing in a little bit lower stakes, just like, just anything that's more vulnerable than, you know, menial, trivial conversation, if that makes sense.

I think that that's what makes the group context so great, is because maybe you do come in. You're not isolating physically, but emotionally you are. If someone else is sharing and being vulnerable, that really does open the door and makes us dipping our toe into the vulnerability pool, if you will, a lot easier because someone has already gone first. And I think that that's just, I think that's something that happens all the time in a group context. I know that's how pure desire groups are run and one of the benefits of having it. But I think part of that too is maybe you're in a group, maybe you're not in a group. To schedule check ins or to schedule connection points each week is pro. I mean that's what I would recommend is scheduling check ins or reaching out each week. So if you're not in group but you know, you have 30 minute drive to work, okay, then I know on Wednesday I'm going to call one of my accountability partners, my friends, my recovery guys. I'm going to call somebody and just talk about how life is going. Having a weekly date night is a great time to check in, you know, with your spouse and to share where you're at emotionally. And so I, you know, and I say this all the time, but I just, it's so true and has been so helpful for me. What gets scheduled gets done. So if you have a plan and you're intentional, I am going to do this on this day, at this time, you have less excuse. When you get to the moment, you know, you're not just hoping that you react in a positive way. You've planned ahead to know, okay, maybe I'm not in crisis, but I know on Wednesday, I'm gonna call Dan or I'm gonna call Justin, or I'm gonna call Emanuel, and I'm gonna talk about what's going on in life. And so building that rhythm into your life is gonna help you not even get into isolation in the first place, but it definitely will help pull you out if you find yourself in it.

Yeah, I think that's so valuable. If we know there's a place that we go to where vulnerability is expected, it's just a lot easier to develop that rhythm. And like you said, Trevor, that's the value of group is that's the expectation. I'm coming to be vulnerable and real, and so I don't have to worry, like, oh, are they going to be bothered if I share this? I think there are some environments, like the typical church small group, and I've been in a lot of them. There are levels of vulnerability. Like, that's just not expected. We don't really know how to go there. We're a mixed crowd. Often we're getting to know each other. But like, if you're in a recovery group, a pure desire group, or something similar, like, there's an expectation of, we're here to share it all. And that's really freeing if you're still trying to take, as Chandler was saying, some of those baby steps into vulnerability. I think it's just when you realize you're in a place of isolation. It'd be asking God to say, who is a safe person in my world? Who is someone that's a friend, a pastor, a co worker, a family member that feels safe, and then going to them and saying, can I share something with you? And I'd give you those words, can I share something with you? There's something going on in my life I haven't felt. I can tell other people, and I just want someone to process with. And as God puts that person on your mind or heart, that this is a safe person to take that step. And as so many of us have found, like, particularly around this issue of sexual brokenness, addiction, struggles with pornography, when we ask permission to share something and we reveal a part of our story, we find that we're not alone. They go, oh, I've had that battle, too. I've struggled with something similar. Would it be okay If I shared something with you, and so just looking for those places and, you know, if you're not sure where to turn, honestly, this is also a great role of counseling, to sit with someone who is trained to help draw out things you haven't known how to express. Because sometimes that's what we're battling, is we know what's going on, but we don't have the language, the words, the context of. How do I say this? How do I unpack something I've never unpacked before? Well, a therapist is trained to do that, to ask good questions and to listen. And so that could be a starting point. And I would just encourage everyone. That's not the ending point, because I think too often we've seen it as well, just go talk to a counselor and never take it out of the counseling office. I think it's meant to be a starting point of learning, like, oh, I've figured out how to put this into words, and now I'm going to take this to other people in my life and start being more vulnerable. Then that could be a really valuable role that counseling could also play.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so how would you recommend that someone be proactive to avoid isolation? Right. We have some tips to maybe pull out of isolation, but what are things we can be putting in place? And I realize I've kind of sort of already answered this question from my perspective, so maybe I won't say anything. But when people feel that desire or that old pattern kicking in of wanting to pull away, what are some proactive things we can put in place to avoid that.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like we've, you know, thrown out a lot of good ones already. I love this idea of, like, scheduling routine times to deal with it. Like, I think that is a great example. Like, my wife and I call it, like, companionship inventory. Like, every Sunday, we have an hour scheduled where the goal is. Yeah. To just, like, the safe space, the time, the goal of the conversation, to check in and, like, have that kind of a conversation. And so I think that can be really powerful. I. I think also, like, if we're taking proactive measures to, like, what Nick said, learn how to be in touch with ourselves, maybe that is seeking out therapy. It can also maybe look like other things, like journaling for a lot of people and whatever. Maybe your meditation or prayer routines might look like things that can bring us in touch with ourselves and with the Lord, I think. And, yeah, we're necessary professional counseling and help listening regularly to resources like this podcast or Reading a book like, I think that type of time to reflect as well as learning resources to improve our knowledge and our abilities. Those things, I think, give us a more capable toolkit in a proactive sense that then we can apply. When we start to notice that we're feeling isolation, we can pull out those tools that we've been developing.

I think too, a way to be proactive is to have that vulnerability to tell someone. Yeah, to just be able to say to someone, man, I'm really feeling tempted to just escape, to just isolate, to ignore the world, to, you know, sit in my. In my struggles or shame or problems, whatever we're feeling. Because before we go there, to just acknowledge this is what I'm feeling. And hopefully there's someone in our life or a group member or spouse that is able to just say, oh, why are you feeling that way? What's going on? And to unpack what are the things that are driving me towards that? Because that's really often all I'm looking for is I. I need a way to face this. And I can either face it by escaping and trying to avoid it or ignore it, or I can unpack what's going on. And so I think being able to tell someone, and I think, like you were saying too, Chandler, that the schedule of. That's why I encourage so strongly the weekly phone calls in a group setting, whether you feel like you need them or not. Maybe you're not at the moment feeling triggered. That's not the reason for the phone calls because I'm currently feeling triggered. Now, that is a good time to make a phone call, but it's really just developing this habit of, hey, I'm chatting with a group member and part of my pattern is to say, here's my commitment to change for the week, and here's where I think I'm at on the faster scale, which, as most listeners probably know by now, is just an emotional inventory of where am I at on the road towards health or relapse, to just say, today I think I'm stuck in some. In ticked off. Here's something that's really bugging me. And I might not even have really thought about it or put it into words until I'm going to make the phone call. But as I'm talking it through, it's like my own brain is hearing the words and going, oh, yeah, I am angry and okay, I need to do something about it. But unless I make that phone call, it just stays internalized and it's very likely to keep driving me Further down into some form of isolation or escape.

Yeah.

And what's interesting is, like, far too often, I feel like before we're willing to vocalize that, we almost feel like we need to have a solution or, like, a resolution that. To that problem. Like, ready to share. Like, I don't want to open up to. To someone in my group or to someone I care about with what's going wrong unless I can also kind of save face and be like, but here's how I'm thinking about it, or here's what I'm, like, trying to do about it. And I realized that that often is, like, almost too late most of the time. Like, it's probably good to just vocalize I'm thinking about. Or, like, I'm just wanting or feeling the urge to do this. Or, like, I just am not wanting to do my calls this week. And I'm texting the dude I'm supposed to call, and he's like, well, all right, let's talk about it. Now we have something to talk about. I think that's really powerful. What you're talking about is just being able to vocalize that earlier on in the process can avoid what we tell ourselves about. Well, no, we can manage this a little further ourselves before we need to do that.

And being able to tell someone and I don't know what to do about it is part of our vulnerability. It's like acknowledging for us that feeling of weakness, Like, I don't have a solution. I don't know what to do.

Actually, a good thing. That is a good thing to be able to say, yeah, for sure.

Because then we're inviting people's help and support. And that's. I think that's just part of the vulnerability that we're choosing. I don't have an answer.

I think another. Just thought about being proactive is when you feel that pull to draw back from people and to isolate, to just be curious and compassionate. And those are two words that you hear a lot in therapeutic settings. But curious, like, why am I feeling this way? And do it, you know? And I love. You know, the word that you were talking about. An inventory, Chandler. Like, doing an inventory of where am I at right now? What am I feeling? What has happened this week? Why am I wanting to pull away and then have compassion towards yourself? Maybe you had a really, really hard day or hard week at work. Maybe you have tension with your spouse. Maybe your kids are acting up, and there could just be so many different things that are going on. And if you're Able to just take a beat, look at it, figure out what's going on, and then have compassion towards yourself. You can make more sense of why you're wanting to isolate and then at that point you've been able to process it a little bit and then you can share. And sometimes if you do have it figured out, it's not bad to share if you already have it figured out, why it is that you're feeling that way. And so don't shy away from that at that point. That is a great time to still reach out.

So let's bring the conversation back full circle because I know Chandler, some of the heart and motive behind you guys developing the Relay app was to help people break out of isolation. So talk more about how the Relay app could help do that. How does it break people, help people get out of isolation and then are there any other tools or resources you would recommend that can also be a part of, of people staying out of isolation?

Yeah, totally. Well, yeah, I think we've touched on a lot of these principles already and maybe I'll use the example of, you know, I'm in a group right now and between meetings. We're using relay as our primary tool to stay connected and stay accountable together. One of the things that we found really powerful early on as we were testing this with various groups and people was this concept of the red flag feature. And a lot of group based programs have this idea of structured in calls and times that we do want to either take an inventory with each other or maybe it's our group meeting where we go through and it is that time to be vulnerable. But creating a way that's even less friction to go from that moment of awareness to like, I should probably talk to someone about this. And it's not like a scheduled time having a way that is an alternative that is a little bit easier than having to have an in person conversation or even pick up the phone. And often it can lead to that. The red flag button kind of lets people just send a notification to their group that signals that they're feeling off. It doesn't mean that they're about to relapse. It doesn't have any type of like context to it other than the awareness that someone was starting to isolate or feel a stressor or trigger and a one touch kind of way to let the group know that they need to have a conversation. And what we kind of see often from that is a group member will jump in and say, hey man, how's it going? I know we had our Call yesterday and you mentioned this was going on. Is that still on your mind or just talk to me. And it's able to kind of mesh together with these other, like, group meetings and calls that people are having to just be an accessible way to have that during unplanned times. I think another tool in the app that's been helpful for people is the pulse check, which is kind of like this idea of an emotional inventory with the faster scale and being able to identify how am I feeling right now. And so I can schedule and say I want to get a notification to check in before work. And maybe when I get home or right before I go to bed, the app can remind me to come in and check in. And like most of these different tools or frameworks, it's just meant to help me be in tune and recognize what I'm feeling and why and to kind of regulate and process through that. But even if I don't maybe need to or want to have like a full conversation with someone or throw that red flag, what's cool is my group, like, if Nick or Trevor's in my group, they could come in and see, oh, it looks like Chandler checked in this morning and he, he put that he was feeling stressed and anxious. And there's almost kind of that transparency that's baked in that doesn't require always having an explicit or direct conversation about it that often can lead to that in other moments. But just having kind of a. Of at any point, my group can come in and see how I'm feeling. And that just kind of has a baked in sense of safety. And again, just trying to remove the friction from making. Making some of these principles we're talking about a little bit easier. Yeah, same thing with, like, accountability, like my commitment to change goals or whatever I'm working on during the week. I can customize and track those in relay. And instead of having to wait till group meeting to tell people whether I'm doing them or not or until my next accountability call, we can just kind of see in the app how our team is doing with everyone's individual goals. And that kind of creates these, I guess, opportunities where we feel like we're in this shared environment rather than doing our own isolated thing. And then we come together once a week.

Yeah, those sound like some really valuable tools. Tell people too. Where, where can they find the Relay app if they want to check this out, if they want to see how it would work for them or for their group. What, what are the next steps in terms of engaging with Relay Yeah.

So the website is joinrelay app. It's also available on the App Store and on the Play Store for Android. You can just search relay improve together. And then there's a way both. If someone doesn't have a group already, they're not attending group. We can actually help match them with a group of peers that kind of fit similar characteristics to them. If they do have a group, though, we also make it easy to kind of set up a private team. You can basically like fill out a little request and then we'll help structure a private code that will let your team try it out for a while, basically. But yeah, that's how people can try it out. And then I know you also asked about other resources. I mean, I think in general, the best resource we have to practice these skills is like ourself, like our voice and our phones, honestly. So like in person opportunities, both planned and unplanned. And also people that I'm not in person with planned and unplanned. And we talked about scheduling times, we talked about being able to have awareness to do it kind of impromptu, I think, as we seek out books and podcasts. And I didn't come prepared with a list of various resources, but there's a lot written out there about how to develop these kind of skills not just for addiction, but for relationships in general. I think seeking knowledge there and then finding ways that maybe make sense for my personal life system of, you know, yeah, maybe I do want to set up kind of a text like weekly structure with a few of my friends. And maybe I do want to like try adding relay in with my group from, you know, whatever. And maybe I do want to like just practice like this system of Wednesday nights with my wife. Like we. We sit down and have an inventory together. Yeah, I'm a fan of prayerfully seeking, like, what is the right system to help integrate these principles for you.

Yeah, this has been such a great conversation. I think breaking isolation is so key in the recovery and restoration process for an individual for a couple of. And we know that Chandler, you and your team at Relay are helping people do that. And we hope that this conversation helped really identify some of the ways we are isolating and pulling away from relationship and what are some ways we can re engage in community with ourselves and with the Lord. So Chandler, thanks for your time, man. Appreciate you being with us and the.

Work you do with Relay. Thanks so much, guys.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.