292 - Myth Busters: High Frequency = Sexual Health

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, party people? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 292 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is. Jennae, why don't you love me?

Oh, my gosh. I just want to get right into it. We had Rodney and Tracy Wright on the episode today to do another mythbusters episode that the myth is that higher frequency equals sexual health. So, Stumbo, do your magic. Show me how you're going to tie that in.

Yes. Well, as you know, Forrest Gump struggled with some of the ways that his, you know, his love, Jenny turned out to not really be in love with him. And he was trying to figure out why, you know, and get to the heart of what was going on in her life. And I think for many couples, sexual frequency does become inadvertent. Whether intentionally or not has become for many people, a measurement of love, a measurement of am I valued and loved? Particularly if I'm honest. I think more often than not, men can really be driven by this, and it's something we're using to measure love and can lead us to feel like, why don't you love me? When really there's a lot more that we want to think through today and kind of maybe unpack why this myth is developed, where it comes from, and how we can approach sexual frequency in our marriage in a much more healthy way that does leave us feeling valued, loved, and cared for, whichever spouse we are. So I hope that's an outcome of today's episode.

Yeah. You know, one of the ways, too, that we talk about sex is it is a form of intimacy, but not intimacy in itself. And we do have a resource out there that we want people to just be familiar with, and it's connected. And the subtitle is Building a Bridge to Intimacy. And this idea of intimacy being something that characterizes all areas of our relationship and sex being one of those things. So, yeah, why don't you tell people a little bit about connected and why they should explore it as a couple.

Yeah. What our counseling team did was they wanted to take a lot of the tools that they were using regularly in the counseling office and see how they could apply to married couples even who weren't in counseling. So it is really kind of an in depth dive into marriage. It's not just a light hearted oh, let's learn how to communicate a little better. You will learn to communicate better, but it's by walking through some of your deep stuff, some of your trauma, understanding hot button issues, and how to work through them. It's a pretty significant journey for a couple to take. And so we do recommend that if you're more on the front end of a recovery journey where pornography or unfaithfulness has been discovered in your relationship, this probably isn't the starting point unless you're in counseling and they walk you through some of the lessons. But particularly when couples are starting to find traction, they're a year into recovery or six months or several years, and they're feeling like, man, we found some traction on these unwanted behaviors and this relationship dynamic, but we want to go deeper as a couple. Man, I don't know of any better resource to build on what you're learning as individuals and bring that into coupleship. And so would highly recommend you walk through Connected. I think it'll take your connection to a whole new level and really allow you to take maybe the healing you've been doing individually in groups to be something you're now working towards together as a couple.

Yep. So if you want to get your copies, go to PureDesire.org Connected Couple More Things. Subscribe to the podcast. It's on all the major platforms. The full episode is up on YouTube as well, and you can follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi. And with that, here's our time with Rodney and Tracy Wright discussing the myth. High frequency equals sexual health. Rodney and Tracy Wright, two of our favorite people. Welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Great to be with you.

We were just saying offline that we don't get to see you guys often together over zoom. We know you're together all the time because you love each other and everything. You just told us, you're in a great season of your relationship. But we are excited to have both of you with us. And today we're tackling another myth that I think a lot of us either assume or are taught somehow inherited this that high frequency of sex in marriage equals sexual health in a marriage. And as a couple who's been married for a long time has walked long time has walked 33 years. There you go.

Nice.

That's awesome. Your relationship is almost as old as I am. And you guys, Ouch. That's good. You guys also have experience, though, walking through recovery and healing. And then now in your roles here at Pure Desire, you help People as well, being a group leader, being a clinician, Traci, in your case. And so we knew you guys would be perfect for this conversation. And so let's just jump in with this first question. Whether it's like tv, it's movies, it's music, social media, there's an assumption that people are just everywhere having really, really good sex and having lots of it. Is this actually true? Is the first question. And if not, why do we get sold this reality as if it's going on everywhere?

Well, I don't think it is true in the sense of frequency itself is the measure of good sex or that people are always enjoying the. Their sexual relationship. And so in my opinion, we just put a lot of eggs in the sexual basket in our culture. So for us, I think it's. Sex is kind of blown out of proportion of this is the benchmark of any great marriage relationship is frequent, good, amazing sex. And however you define that good or amazing. And I just think it's a little bit unrealistic about life and about all aspects of our life that can be good and meaningful and satisfying and have a frequency to them that are outside of sexuality. Sexuality is a piece of the puzzle. But I just think culture puts so many eggs and sex sells things. So we make everything sexy and that's just kind of a misnomer. I think in culture it's more about are we satisfied with the frequency of our enjoying our relationship with each other in a lot of areas, not just sex.

And I think most of the time, TV and movies, they're showing you just a snippet, this highly charged experience.

Yeah.

Not a relationship over years and over time. And so I think that's part of the misnomer is we just see like just very highly charged situations or this little hour and a half recap of. Of what's going on in a life. And we don't really see this whole experience. And then we don't have that many safe places to actually talk about what is going on in our relationship or other people's relationship because it is a very vulnerable area of life. And so how many settings do we have where we really are talking about what's going on? And if there's shame around what's going on or we are feeling something's wrong with me, something's wrong with us even more. So we're just going to take. Okay, that's what they say. And I don't really have anyone to talk about that with.

Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting the way that you know, obviously, the definition of marriage is changing a lot in our culture and people's attitudes about it. But one of the things that research is consistently finding has not changed much at all is people's viewpoint, even, you know, secular Christian. There's not much of a difference here, that if you are in a committed marriage, that it is wrong to have sex outside of that relationship. So it's a widely held view that there is something unique about marriage and sexual connection that. That we still understand is meant to be shared by that couple and only by that couple. And so I think because of that, because it is one of the things that is unique to your marriage relationship that you don't share with other people, that can easily become that measurement. Because if, you know, I can go out for coffee with a lot of people, and so just spending quality time with my wife doesn't feel like something I can measure of how healthy is our marriage. But when there's this one thing that we share and only we share, it does become kind of that barometer for people. And I think maybe because we just haven't thought through what are other ways that I could maybe more appropriately assess the health of my marriage. And we haven't talked about that enough. So I hope that's part of what people get out of us. Really trying to bust this myth is an encouragement to look at what are other, more effective gauges to ask, how healthy is our marriage?

Yeah. I think an aspect of this, too, is that it's aspirational in a sense, where everybody wants to have great, meaningful, frequent. Not everybody. I think that that is something that a lot of people want. I think that that's something that we desire for married couples is to have very fulfilling sex in a relationship. And so I think when we see it in culture as something, you know, to what you said, Tracy, very charged experiences. That is. I know. You know, I think for me, growing up, that was what I thought sex would be like all the time. And so I find myself wanting that all. When I see it in the culture, it's just them selling it to me. And so I think that that's what's appealing about it. And I think that that's why. I mean, it could honestly be used as a marketing ploy, because we know that that's what a lot of people desire in their relationships. So let's put it in a movie or put it in a song or put it in a TV show.

We're all sexual beings, male and female, and so that's how we were Created to engage sexually. And Nick talked about marriage is that relationship where it works at its highest level and best, that committed, monogamous relationship of marriage. And so is it good? Well, that's a good communication tool for both individuals to communicate to each other what's working, what isn't. And we'll kind of get into that as we move down the road to more questions.

Yeah. So I think we all know that, you know, sexuality within a marriage is very unique. It's very personal. It's something that that couple shares in a distinct way that can't always be translated to, well, what is everybody else doing? And yet we live in a world where comparison is so easy to do. So maybe in particular, when it comes to sexual frequency, do we find ourselves with that comparison mindset of how do we compare to others? Why do we fall into that so easily?

Well, I think we're kind of a consumer culture with all kinds of things that we compare. It's the adage that says, I like my stuff until I see your stuff, and then I want some of your stuff. Whether it's a boat or a car or a house, we just compare a lot about all kinds of things. And the reality is that sexuality is a piece of the marriage relationship. But maybe, for instance, it's not a fair comparison with frequency or because of our personality or because of different aspects of our marriage that we're enjoying other than sexuality. And so comparison sometimes just gets you in trouble. I think you have to be more open to saying, is this working for me as an individual in our marriage? And if not, I can express that. And if it is, then we can say, hey, let's continue that. That's. That's working wonderfully.

Yeah. I think being really intentional in our culture, we have to be really intentional not to compare. So that's kind of more of the why questions that we ask ourselves. Being curious, what's going on with me, if comparison is a big deal in any area of my life, but in this area, this is an important part of my marriage. So what is this comparison about? How do I keep growing or gaining understanding?

Yeah, I think, too, it's just the culture. If you think about it, we were raised in a performance and a comparative culture in the same of like, a valedictorian is someone who got the best grades in school. The champions are the ones who performed the best on the field. And I think that there's a natural comparison that happens, that I'm comparing myself to the standard that is set by someone else. And so I think growing up, like, you get accolades and you get atta boys if you do a good job and you perform well compared to your peers or the people that are also doing the same activity. And so I think that seeps into. That's just another aspect, I think, of this. It seeps into our perspective when it comes to sex, healthy sexuality, marital sexuality. What that looks like is that we end up just bringing in this preset or this mindset that we have going into it, and then we fall prey to it when it comes to our sexuality.

Yeah, well, I think in a lot of areas of life, there's just a belief that more is better. And so if I'm having more of whatever it is, then I'm a better person. And I want to speak real honestly. I think for men, this is a challenge, the way we're groomed as young men, because if we're honest, what do we hear about? Whether in movies or TV shows or the football locker room, we hear people bragging about how many times they did it. And more is viewed as, oh, if it was five times in that night or 10 times in that weekend, or whatever they're bragging about. It's like, oh, that's a real man. And so we're kind of set up to think, well, that's what manliness and success in relationship looks like without even considering for hearing these things at 16, 17, 18, like, that may be a totally unrealistic, totally false thing. And even the person saying it, it might not even be true. They could be completely making it up. And then on the flip side, what we don't hear in most environments, whether the church or otherwise, we don't hear couples stand up and talk about, you know, it's for us once a month, and that's awesome. It's perfect for us. Or our rhythm is once a week or twice a month or once every six. You know, whatever it is, we don't hear people talking openly about that. As you were saying, Tracy, in a way that we elevate and glorify even this less frequent thing to say, that can be wonderful, too. And so if we only have the one model in mind, we may be trying to achieve or live up to a model that we've never stopped to really consider. Is this realistic or healthy or true? Or is it just something I learned because of my teenage adolescence years?

I think that's a benefit of the podcast. And what Pure Desire is doing is just creating avenues where we can talk more about this subject matter. You know, you mentioned Nick we don't stand up and say, hey, we're having it once a month and this is, it's really wonderful, like a testimony service and well, God bless you Sister Smith. Mr. Smith, how about you? You know, but, but the reality is comparison. If, if, if Trevor likes new cars and I like older cars or I like a nicer house or a vacation, we sometimes just have preferences of what things that we like more than other things. And so it's about, it's about the preference of frequency that works for the couple, not comparing you as a couple to another couple. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

So I think it's the same thing in comparison and anything else.

Yeah.

What, what works for you as a couple and are you communicating that to each other?

Yeah. Which I know we're going to unpack later.

Going back to culture a little bit. Contentment is not a big buzzword in our culture.

Yeah, right.

I mean it is easy to pick up on that. We are not all about contentment, we are about the next thing and we're programmed for it now, especially with our social media. And so I think that is another place to be curious about is just what does contentment look like? Because I think what you talked about earlier, Trevor, of being conditioned for like frequency of sex is really important and I want it this way and I want it this often and I'm not content if it's not that way. Rather than, hey, we have a partnership here, a unique relationship. Right. And we get to, we get to make the rules around that out of, out of health, out of a healthy place.

Yeah.

And that makes me think about some of the neurochemicals of sex in that what we know is if sex is happening in a non committal relationship where it is just about the physical pleasure, you know, the experience that the brain is actually creating that, that baseline of well, I need more to feel the same thing. Whereas what we know neurochemically, if we're in a committed marriage relationship, that, that sexual union, the brain chemicals also release the chemicals of satisfaction and contentment and bonding that communicates to us, I'm good, I'm in a happy place. And so just think about, if someone is boasting about how many times they're having sex outside of a marriage relationship, it may be because neurochemically they're just trying to run after that high or to get the place that their brain feels satiated enough to get the buzz that they had the last time. And so they're chasing an ever moving target versus in marriage I think we do want to look at the reality of. I want my brain chemicals to work for me in a way that I feel really satisfied. I remember Doug Weiss talks about this on the Conquer series, that having meaningful sexual intimacy with our spouse can lead to a time period of, whether it's days or weeks, where, like, I feel satisfied in our relationship, and I don't need more sex to feel good because there's this satisfaction and, like you said, Tracy, this contentment that's happening.

Yeah. So is there a frequency? And I think this is, like, the main question of this MythBusters episode. Is there a frequency of having sex that does indicate healthy sex in a marriage?

I would say yes and no. And so I would say yes, that. Is there a frequency? Yeah. That can be determined by the couple when both people are expressing their desire. And that sexuality is a positive experience for both individuals, and it's something that they're enjoying and that it just isn't negative and that the frequency is working for both of them. So that's the importance. Just about if you want more frequency or less frequency, it's just being able to communicate openly and why. And what else in the relationship would you like more frequently or less frequently? So it kind of. It kind of spills out into all those areas. Is. Is it holist? Is this relationship holistically working for you?

Yeah.

I remember one time Tracy said to me, rod, I don't know if this marriage is working for you, but it's really working for me. I'll never forget when she said that, I went, oh, well, that's good to hear. So just that openness about frequency, there's not a magic number. And depending upon our season of life, our stage of life, our health, so many issues can affect frequency. And so we've been married 33 years. We understand that from having kids to physical challenges to life challenges, frequency has an ebb and flow to it.

Yeah.

I like what Rodney said about it. It can be an indicator to that couple. So rather than, you know, just across the board. I really like that because it's true. In our relationship, if we are connected with a good emotional intimacy and health, then it can be an indicator for us just of what else is going on in our world. Right. And there may. That may be an indicator in a negative way, or it might just be life situations. And I think we do have that. Being married 33 years, we have that hindsight now to go back and look through our life as a full relationship, you know, and see it ebb and flow. But still have a consistency of connection and of. Of sexual intimacy.

You know, I also think it's important that a couple acknowledges the season of life that they're in when. When you're considering the right you frequency as a couple. And if we haven't taken time to think through that, it might really set us up for disappointment. Because if we're, you know, in year one of a marriage, that's very different than what might be happening at year 20. In a marriage when there's kids and careers and busyness, that if we have expectations that we'll be having the frequency in year 20 that we did at year one, and we've never talked about that, it's likely that at least one half of the couple is feeling a lot of loss and disappointment. And so I think the importance what you guys have said about communication, about openness and honesty and just a healthy recognition of just where we're at and being okay with where we're at. And the other thing I would add about couples discussion in sexual frequency is to recognize more often than not, there will be one with a desire for more frequent and the other for less frequent and to be exactly aligned. I think in a marriage that we both want the exact same amount of frequency is really a rare thing. And so if you're in a marriage or a season where that is where you're at, man, celebrate that, because that's cool. I would say most couples would say one of us wishes it was more and one of us is okay with it being less. And so in every marriage, there's often kind of, I don't say negotiation, like, well, if you do this, I'll do that. But there has to be a meeting in the middle that for one it may be more than they need and the other it's less than they need, and that's okay. Like, that's how marriages work. And so I think for some people just realizing that of saying, oh, it's not bad that one of us has a greater desire, because sometimes we do paint that as well. I just have a really high sex drive and there's something wrong with me, or vice versa, I have a really low sex drive. There's something wrong with me because I don't match up with them. I just want to express like, that's normal, that you're not completely aligned. And then that's the beauty of marriage, like, talking through how do we navigate this as a couple so that we both can feel some contentment going back to that word of where we're at. And Find enjoyment in it.

Totally.

And Nick, I think the word desire over need is really important. Just that desire expressing desire to connect. And just like in personalities, the extrovert loves being with more people, the introvert loves being with less people. So you have to kind of find a balance socially in that regard. Right. So it can be the same thing. So I just have a little story or compliment about my mom and dad. They were married 73 years of marriage. That would be like 40 more years that Tracy and I would have. So my dad recently passed away just about six weeks ago. But I remember in his 80s he was, he had a conversation with me. He knew my whole story of recovery was a part of my journey and work. But he was having some physical changes in his body and his relationship in this arena and was able to talk to my mom. And my mom said to my dad, she said, you should probably talk to your sons because someday when they get your age, they might have to navigate this. And so I'll never forget this conversation I had with my dad as we were on the way to the Spokane airport, taking him back. And it was a beautiful conversation about their relationship continuing to grow in other areas and health issues were changing and yet they were still finding meaningful connection. And just that my 86 year old dad was able to talk about that, it was like, it was a beautiful conversation and a gift because family and trusted relationships are where we can find help to maybe grow in these areas and communicate about ebb and flow of life.

Yeah.

So we've talked about, you know, sexual frequency not being a reliable measurement of marriage health. So how could we define sexual health in a marriage relationship?

I would say just it's mutually satisfying for both partners and it's not a negative experience. So just not being a negative experience. And what I mean by not being negative experience, it's not painful physically, emotionally or in another area where somebody feels like they're having to do it out of duty, rather doing it out of enjoyment or giving, you know, giving a gift to serve, being other centered to meet a desire of our spouse, but not manipulated or any of that type of thing where we feel coerced in any way, but just a lot of mutual respect. And I. This is where the word mutual submission is a beautiful word to me. Where it's, it's, it's willingly that we do things for one another. Yeah. And so I think that's again speaks to the communication piece with, with couples expressing what's working and not working.

I think that if the goal of our Relationship is emotional health in health in all our areas, then that sexual area is something that is going to be an outcome of that. So I like to go back to that of like what is the goal here? And the goal is just a bigger picture. There's so many facets of being married and that's one of them part of it. And then are both of the couples desires being shared. And because it's hard to meet those needs if we're not comfortable sharing about them or if one person feels like I can't talk about this. So I think just looking at that, being healthy in multiple areas and then learning how, if I don't already know how, learning how to communicate that to the other person.

Yeah, I like what has already been said in thinking through your example, Nick, of maybe like that teenager or college athlete in the locker room who's talking about frequency. Like again that that may be the frequency. It may be five times in one night. That's great. But were both people engaged? Were they connected? Was it like something that they both enjoyed and both wanted? Because that to me is, you know, as we've already talked about, that's what good sex is. And so I'm just guessing if that story was true, that that wasn't the case every single time that they didn't feel connected, that it was maybe more about one spouse or the or one person than the other. And so that idea of safety and connection, I think another, you know, and I know we've mentioned kind of around it too, but just open communication about it speaks volumes about the health of the sex in a relationship. That if I'm able to talk to my spouse about this and be open in a non shaming environment, we can have dialogue back and forth. That to me says that there's health around your sexuality. But if there's not conversation happening, there isn't a back and forth, there's shame, there's uncertainty. If I can even address this, then that to me would suggest that there's some work that needs to be done in the health of the sexuality of the marriage.

Yeah. And we could take words that we would apply to the health of a relationship in general to apply them to sexual health. And so in a healthy marriage we would say I feel seen, I feel valued, I feel respected and we have fun together. And so apply those same words to our sexual experiences, encounters. Do we feel seen? Do we both feel valued, do we both feel respected? And do we both have fun? And if we realize we're lacking in some of those areas Then we want to lean into that and figure out, okay, what's missing or what am I doing that makes you feel this way, or what is keeping you from having fun in these moments? And I think that word mutuality is just so important. And Sheila Ray Gregoire and the Great Sex Rescue is really helping. I think a lot of us challenge our paradigm that. That men. That sex tends to be a man's need and a woman's obligation. And when that's happening, both people don't tend to feel seen, valued, respected, and having fun. And so we've really got to explore how is this something that when we're mutually enjoying it, the takeaway or the outcome for both is a lot more pleasurable. So I think that is a marker of sexual health for a lot of us.

And because we don't communicate about it, which we've already spoken about here on the podcast. Get a book. And this is something that I was deeply influenced by Cliff and Joyce penner Years ago, 20 years ago, about just getting a book about healthy sexuality and reading it out loud to each other as a couple. Because sometimes we're just not used to having sexual conversation in a way that's healthy, and sometimes we only heard it in a way that is kind of deviant or disrespectful, but just learning to communicate that. So even just getting a pure desire resource and reading it out loud to each other, chapter a piece, you start to build that communication base in the area of sexuality.

Totally.

And I. I just want to throw out the word growth, too, because I think health is about being two growing people. Sometimes we can have that measurement of, like, oh, are we a healthy marriage or we not? Is our sexual relationship healthy or not? And I think when we are growing from whatever our starting point is right now, because the starting point for some people and a lot on this podcast would be we've walked through some betrayal or we've walked through some painful experiences or childhood trauma. Where. Where's my starting point right now? And as a couple, are we growing? So I would say a marriage is healthy if they're growing and if they feel like we can't do this together, communicate and grow, that they're reaching out for outside support. Absolutely. Because then we're continuing to grow through the obstacles, whatever they are, in our relationship.

And sometimes just saying it, like, how do you see financial health? It's. It's. It's the same aspect of our lives. What does that look like? Right. How do you define that? Well, it kind of depends on where you're starting, what, what the situation finds you in that health could be just stop spending money and going into debt or getting out of debt or saving or working toward goals. So there's a continuum there of how we measure health and where we are depending on the situation.

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing is direction, not destination. That health is where we're headed, where we're moving. Okay, so we've already established that sexual frequency isn't the standard or the barometer of sexual health or even health in a marriage. So let's talk about why that is. Why my sexual frequency be a poor measurement for a healthy marriage?

Well, sometimes we can use sex to avoid things. And for those of us that's navigated or had been conditioned through pornography, sometimes pornography or masturbation connected to pornography is a way we've learned to self regulate or to cope with things we don't want to deal with. And so that becomes an unhealthy and a compulsive behavior that we go to that is just speaks of immaturity. It's not a way of processing or navigating some of our challenges in kind of immature ways. And so this piece of maturity and realizing that am I using sex to just avoid a difficult conversation about whatever in my relationship finances a conflict difficulty, whatever it may be.

And that could be for either partner too. So the use of sex to cope, or in betrayal, the use for like I'm stopping my spouse from acting out. So I think that, and Rodney touched on it, is just asking the question around the frequency. Does this feel healthy? What are the reasons for. For the frequency that we have?

Yeah, and I think it's a poor measurement because there's not always a direct correlation between the two. It's what we might say about someone's weight, that if, if you just use weight as a measurement of health, maybe you're at a low weight because you've been very sick and not eating properly and your body's atrophying and we might say of someone, you're actually very unhealthy at that weight. Where someone else may have a higher weight and it's because they've been adding muscle and bulking up and their weight may not. There's not a correlation between weight and health. And in the same way there's not a correlation between frequency and health in our marriage relationship because it's possible, as Rodney and Tracy talked about, that sex could be happening frequently, but it's avoiding other things or it's just to Meet someone's needs, what they've defined as needs because of other unhealthy behaviors. And on the flip side, there may be very healthy marriages where because of the season you're in business, kids, travel, health issues, that maybe there's not much sexual frequency at all. And I think that couple needs to know, you might still look at your marriage and go, we have a great marriage. Just right now, it's not very frequent in a sexual way. And so because there's not a correlation, we just want to be aware there are a lot of other factors that go into this. So could sexual frequency happening a lot be happening in a healthy marriage? Absolutely. But on the flip side, it could also be happening in an unhealthy marriage.

Yeah, I think I know for me, when I got into marriage, it was a barometer of if my wife was attracted to me or if I was loved or if I was valued. And I think that sex in general, and I know it can be that way for a lot of people where there's identity wrapped up into this action and the frequency of it. And I think that that can. And you know, I know, Traci, you've talked about this before, and I know that in the clinical setting, sometimes we do recommend a season of abstinence to retrain our brain that this is not identity. This is not what makes our relationship good or bad. This is not something that, you know, we've already talked about it. It's not something we need. I think that sex absolutely is an important part of marriage and that's why God designed it. But it isn't something that, like, there can be a season where if we don't have sex intentionally, that's okay. And so I think that there needs to be some retraining of the brain. I know for me too, coming out of addiction, that it really is an ongoing process. And so I think that that's another reason why I would say it's a poor measurement is because we may have our identity wrapped up into it too much and that has to get fixed.

Right. And that's where if you look at it like you're saying, Trevor, if you look at it and you back up, take a pause and figure out, okay, what are we focused on? If this area seems unhealthy, we're focusing on other areas that maybe are starving in our relationship and that need support. Maybe it is non sexual physical touch even, but we always feel like it has to lead to the sex piece. So it's stepping back and saying, and that's where taking a pause or an abstinence or something on your own or with the help of a counselor, support can be important because then you're building on this strong foundation and from that foundation and some communication, then, then you can enjoy your relationship any way really that you want to because you're doing it out of a healthy place.

And the goal being intimacy. Not necessarily frequency, but intimacy and frequency can, can, can be an indicator one way or the other.

Totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

We've discussed this on some other podcasts, but I think in light of today's conversation, it's important to address as well because many couples listening or people are in a marriage are in some place of recovery from sexual addiction, pornography, issues of betrayal, and figuring out how to reintegrate or integrate maybe for the first time. Healthy sexuality can be a challenge where some people over function. You know, one couple, one spouse is trying to fix the other by providing more frequency. And in other couples it's the exact opposite where there's no sexual connection because of the hurt and betrayal and fear and, and either response has, has challenges and difficulties. So how would you say Rodney and Tracy, how do couples start integrating sex into their marriage after disclosure and walking in the recovery process, what does it look like to move towards sexual health?

Well, I think first of all, it's just about respecting your partner for the situation that you've navigated, whatever that looks like, whether it is an abuse, let's just say that one partner has had sexual abuse growing up or they've been betrayed in their, in their experience as a couple. So if you have some negative history in this arena, just con. Just like if somebody were in an accident that you could see physically, you would respect their healing process. So with compassion, with respect, with a sense of maturity, just looking at that partner and realizing that there's been some wounds in this area and it's going to take time to heal. So what are the tools that help us set, set the trajectory so that we can both move toward healing? So that when we think about our sexuality, it's. First of all, we have positive feelings about our sexuality, not negative, and that we're grateful for them and that we're not just. It's always negative because we've never took the time to actually do the healing work?

Yeah, I would just say we're in a healthy sexual relationship. We're both looking for safety, you know, real connection, safety, vulnerability. That's what it, that's what sexual intimacy is. And so for us to be able to look at is it okay, am I free to say no? Am I free to say yes? Do I feel pressure? And I think if there has been a betrayal of some kind, then I don't know if I 100% trust this person yet. So I'm, I'm watching over time to see if this is safe, how, how I feel as a person. Do they make me feel safe or do I feel safe when I'm with them, with their behaviors? Are they getting, getting support? Are they working on their recovery and getting support? Are they changing and growing as a person? We're kind of looking at some of those things that help us feel some more safety and then we can take some steps. And I would recommend just looking at the baby steps of like our emotional connection. Are we having fun together? Are there things that we're doing that build on this relationship? Having time every day to connect in a non sexual way is a really good start. Even if it's very simple, of highs and lows of the day or what's working and what isn't working in our relationship, building in some of those things over time and then adding on to that when the couple feels comfortable to have some physical touch. And I will say, see, often the couples will say, well, I actually do want to engage in holding hands or sitting together and you know, or having the person's arm around me or a hug. I just know that I feel uncomfortable around it. Moving to that next step. So if we can create comfort just in our relationship and safety, then we can talk about like when we're both ready to engage sexually with each other again.

Yeah.

Building trust is a wonderful gift and it takes time.

Yeah. And I mean, what's so central to all of what we're talking about with this question is communication being able to share and to receive where we're at from other, you know, from your spouse. Like being able to say, you know, I'm even thinking about maybe a couple's in a conversation where the betrayed partner is uncomfortable with sex and then the struggling partner, the one who's in recovery, wants sex that if they had a conversation where the addict or the struggler is able to articulate what it is about sex that they're looking for. Like, is it connection? Is it, you know, their spouse being present in that moment with them, then that being, being able to communicate that to a betrayed partner, it's like, oh, well, I can offer that in these ways. We can go on a walk and maybe hold hands, or we can play a card game together and look for ways where we're present together and we're together in that moment as a couple. And so I think that I just. That's the cornerstone of everything we're talking about with this is there has to be communication. Because there are so many expectations that each of us carry and sometimes we're not even aware of when it comes to reintegrating sex, if there's been any, you know, damage or hurt or injury in the relationship. And so I think communication just has to be the centerpiece of it all.

Yeah, I think we have to be able to communicate what we're feeling and why. And for particularly, I think the person who has struggled is walking through addiction. For that person to be very respectful and understanding of the other person's emotions and not be trying to pressure them to hurry up because they've got quote, unquote needs that they feel need to be met. It just. That's going to continue to contribute to the unhealth. And so really allowing your partner, again, if you're the struggling spouse, to have a voice, to have emotions and desires. And if they say, I'm not comfortable with this right now or I'm not ready or I'm not, I don't think this is about me to be aware of that and say, okay, well, let's keep working towards that. And for some couples, you know, this has come up in other episodes, there may be a need for a period of abstinence, intentional abstinence, to have a reset in the relationship. We'd recommend, if you're doing that, that you're doing it with the direction of a professional counselor, someone who's guiding you through what this looks like. And not just one person withholding because they're using it as a form of punishment or something like that. But I would just make sure we voice that, that it could be appropriate if in this period of recovery, you're going to need to have some time where it's just off the table. That's normal. That's an okay need. And that doesn't mean that there's something emotionally wrong with you if that's how you're feeling. And I would say on the flip side, other couples, that's not their need, that's not their desire, because they want that closeness as they work through. So it's. Every couple's needs are different. And I think that's where what you said communication is so important, because if we're not able to talk about that as a couple, then we're just going to continue to be frustrated by what we perceive the other is thinking or feeling until we talk it through. So wherever you're at, I think, be there together, Be respectful of the other person's needs, and then look at how does our sexual frequency become an outcome of the health and connection in our relationship, not a substitute for it.

One thing that I've witnessed a lot in working with couples is if there's an element of frustration over a long time, often people will just give up on this area of their life, and they'll just be one or the other is frustrated, or both are frustrated. And so they kind of give up on this area and just, you know, we haven't had sex for five years, 10 years, and they're not talking about it. They just haven't. They just stopped because it was too much stress, too much pressure or whatever. The ebbs and flows of life took it out of them. And so they kind of give up on that piece. And so whether. Whether it's been about betrayal or not, that is a common theme that can happen for couples. So I just absolutely recommend in that case to go and get the support of a professional to help you, because that can be a real area of distance. Even if the couple's, like, trying to carry on in their companionship, it's a real area of distance in their relationship, because it's really not something they're choosing. It's something that just happened because they became disconnected.

So let's just say you guys are sitting across the table from a couple that's going through recovery and healing, and they're coming to you asking this question. How do we find a healthy frequency for sexual intimacy? What kind of feedback or thoughts would you give to a couple in that recovery and healing journey together?

Well, I. I would simply say whichever the spouse was who struggled with the addiction or the betrayal from their negative action, that they would really prefer the other spouse realizing the pain that they caused. And I know just in our. Our relationship, 26 years ago, I let Tracy kind of lead the way in trust in this arena. I was more concerned about just being healthy and not using sex as a way to cope or sexualizing things in my world. So my advice would be to. For that individual to really care and be considerate and humble and work on the health of the relationship overall so that you're, you know, a setting so healing can happen and be even stronger than it maybe even was before, because you're doing the healing process right. You know, give it time.

I would compliment them for coming to another couple and talking about.

For sure.

Definitely.

For sure.

And then I would ask the question of, do you feel comfortable talking with. Do each of you feel comfortable sharing your wants and desires in this relationship? Because if we don't have that starting point and we're not going to get very far. So I would go. I would backtrack and work on that if both people don't feel comfortable talking about that. And then from there it's just like, what do we need? It might be just, we need a babysitter or we need time away because this season of life, we're going to be low energy. If we don't, we might need to go to a doctor because there's a lot of pain or because hormones have gone wonky, and that's just a normal part of life also. So it's kind of like, what. What do we need? And then having a tool. So plan day of the week for sex, a tool to talk about it. Kind of giving people some tools that they can grab onto and try. Because I think a good tool helps a marriage, you know, whatever. Everybody has different tools they use, but grabbing onto something and you.

We can't. I can't express communication enough how important that is, that we learn how to communicate about our human sexuality. And. And part of my he healing process with Tracy, I could communicate with her if I was away from her on a trip or something. I could say, hey, I felt I was aware of my sexual feelings, but I just connected them to you. And I can talk to her about those, you know, and just say, when I feel sexual. That can happen involuntary sometimes, or at a situation that I see. I'm aware of my sexual feelings, but I manage my behavior now in a healthy way, always connecting that to Tracy and being able to communicate that with one another. And again, that communication creates safety and trust and openness to talk about sharing our desires with each other.

And Tracy used a word that I think many of us need to maybe embrace, and that's plan. Planning it.

Yeah.

That planned sex can be good sex because for many of us, we've thought that sex is always just supposed to be spontaneous in the moment. It's just suddenly happening, and that that's the only way it should occur. And that idea that if it's planned, it's somehow negative. But the reality is when we have kids and careers and a lot going on, that might actually really help as a couple, be thinking about, okay, how am I prepared for that? How am I in the right place emotionally? And how are we connecting and thinking through it? And that doesn't mean that every week it should be the same, because routine for some becomes an obstacle. Like, well, it's Friday night, so I guess we're supposed to. That's our plan. If that's not good for you, don't feel locked into it. But I think having plans that we're both anticipating can even for your brain be that cue of like, oh, I need to start thinking this way, because I want it to be a mutually satisfying experience. The other conversation I think that's really important to have is just asking as a couple, how do we initiate sex? Whose role is it? How do we do that? How do we communicate to the other person that I am interested in sexual connection? Because for a lot of us, if we're walking through recovery, the ways that that's been communicated in the past maybe felt very pressure filled or led to some painful experiences. And if we're just continuing to initiate the same way without meaning to, we might still be creating that feeling of pressure or obligation or the fear of the same painful experience being repeated. And there may need to be some adjustments just in how we communicate. Hey, I'm interested in having physical connection, in having sex. How to communicate that may be a key starting point, because if we start that path with kind of the right attitude or mindset, then I think the outcome can be a lot better versus if we're starting for the other person feeling pressured or obligated. It's just rarely going to end up in a good place.

Yeah, I think one of the practical things that I would just suggest is if you're going to have a conversation about the frequency in your marriage, to do it when sex is not on the table in that context, like, it's not like, well, you know, like, I'm gonna have this conversation with the hope that it goes somewhere. Like, I think that saying, look, sex isn't on the table tonight, but I want to talk about our sexual relationship, and I want to figure out what, like, how do you feel about it? Has there been pain? Has it been enjoyable? What's the frequency that you would want? Because I think, and this has been an experience in my marriage, there can be a pressure or an expectation that this conversation will then lead to sex. And so I think that. But practically, if you can just have that conversation, you know, when it isn't on the table, I think that can help both spouses to have a conversation that isn't loaded or charged in that moment. And you can still have good communication.

And be honest with your spouse. If there's any peace, physically, emotionally, hygiene, whatever. If there's any negativity, express that so that you correction and help can be made so that you can do it. There's a funny little skit called Business time. It's on YouTube. I don't know if you guys have seen that.

Concords. Yes.

Talks about scheduling. Right. And it's Wednesday. There's nothing on tv. It's kind of a real funny satire that the guy does. But I think scheduling is. Is great. I'm a morning person. Tracy's an evening person. We say noon is God's will for us.

Right. So.

So and Wednesday at noon. Hey, it's Wednesday. Perfect. You know, so this is just what Nick said. I can rec. I couldn't recommend that anybody more just being intentional about saying, hey, that's a desire I have. And scheduling it can be very, very meaningfully. Yep.

And if your relationship is healthy, then humor is a good part of that. If your relationship isn't healthy, then nothing's really funny when we're talking about.

That's true.

Anything else. But if you have a healthy relationship, then I would say humor in it is great. Like teasing, joking, whatever. That's. That's helpful because it's part of like, okay, this. This can feel awkward or it's a weird season of life or whatever, and we can still talk about it, joke about it kind of. It brings that fun element like you were saying. Nick, if I'm going to be planning it, what I'm really doing is planning a relaxed time to enjoy each other and. And have some sexual intimacy. It's not just like, okay, the clock says now let's. The planning is about actually setting aside all these other things in life that are getting in the way and being able to just focus on each other and have a good time.

Yeah.

And. And as we grow and find healing, the joy isn't just for my experience to be wonderful as I mature. It's about my partner's experience being wonderful. That's what maturity looks like. That's the other centeredness to say, yeah, this isn't just want to be great for me. I want this to be great for her. Yeah. And finding joy and meaning and pleasure in making this a great experience for your spouse. When. When both individuals have that kind of care and compassion and can grow to those places, that's when I think it becomes meaningful.

So we talked about it being normal for a couple to feel like one has a desire for a little more and one a desire for a little less. So real practically Speaking. What steps could couples take to get on the same page about the frequency of sex in their marriage if they don't feel like they are currently?

Well, I think one could write like 10 on a piece of paper and one can write one and put them in a hat and then just draw out a piece of paper and then whatever number you get, that's the week what you do.

Oh, my gosh.

You do that if you want.

Yeah. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I think it goes back to communication of just expressing and. And what's a win for the marriage? Not just a win for one person. How do we find a win win? And I think that's the real key. I want this marriage to work for both of us, not just for me. So in all areas of life, how we spend money, how social we are, what we do with our time, those are all things that we have to find common ground. And so this is where good communication and good conflict resolution skills. How do we come to an agreement on something? How do we resolve this in a healthy way? Yeah, I think those are the two internal pieces of our marriage that can affect every area, is how we communicate and how we resolve conflict. When we have differences, are we respectful? Do we find a good tool that helps us come to a win win for both parties?

Yeah.

Yeah. I think just asking each other, ask the other person what. What do we need to get on the same page? Or what are your expectations? Right. So being curious about how that other person thinks and feels, then I'm going to ask them questions and get to know them, which is intimacy. Right. Knowing and being known is intimacy. So if I'm asking questions and getting to know my partner, even if we've been married a long time, I might need to re. Get to know my partner. And out of that, then we can build on that.

There was a resource we went through a couple years ago called Vertical Marriage. I think Family Life produced it. There was a video course and this couple walks you through it and they talk about. The wife talks about that, the husband, when they're getting into a conversation about having sex or if they're moving into a time of sexual intimacy, that there are things the husband can do to help kind of remove the luggage. They use this imagery that a wife is carrying luggage, like the difficulty from the day, maybe with the kids, the responsibility that now she has time for all these different things where a man's just carrying like one bag and it's like sex, and then the woman is carrying like 10 bags of luggage. And I think that the reason that comes to mind is just thinking through, talking about why your answer is what it is for frequency. Like, if the one spouse is really busy and preoccupied with all of these things, you can have a conversation around that. Well, this is how I feel today. These are the ways that I failed, maybe as a parent. These are the responsibilities I still have to do tonight. And so there are these other factors that are contributing to my lack of interest in having sex tonight or having it as often as the other spouse wants to. And so I think if you can have a conversation and explore why maybe the spouse who wants more sex wants it as frequent as they do, and the spouse who doesn't want it as frequent, why they don't want it as frequent. And then being able to understand each other, I think, number one, that moves us closer to intimacy in general. That's where we're connecting and understanding more about each other. And then from that place, I think that's a good place to find that happy medium for couples.

And we may have to look in, like, Trevor, you're saying there may be selfish in another area of my relationship that I have to deal with. It's not helpful for my spouse that doesn't, you know, create a sense of care and compassion for each other. So some of it is just saying, hey, maybe it's not about my need, maybe it's about her need. Whether it's in sexuality today or whether it's another area of life, I'm going to meet that need because I care and love for this person. Because overall, we're working on the health of our relationship.

Yeah. And while I agree with what you said, Trevor, that I think it is important to figure out what might be holding another person back, what's getting in their way, what makes it difficult for them to engage? I think I had to realize I had this supposition that if I could just help my wife remove any barriers or obstacles, that then we would be at the same desire for frequency. It was just the things that were in her way, but otherwise we would have the same desire. And we were maybe 15 years into our marriage when I actually asked the question, said, in an ideal situation, how often do you wish we were having sex? Like, what is your ideal? And finding out that in that answer we weren't matched up, that we had different expectations. Even in an ideal world. It was like, oh, that's good. We never talked about it. And so just thinking through that, okay, how do we meet together in a way that is appropriate Being aware of this is what's ideal to you. And it's a little different than what's ideal to me. But now we can talk about it, because I just felt like, well, if I worked hard enough to remove the obstacles, then it's going to be as frequent as I want, but not really taking into account what really was her view. And so I think that helped me change my expectations and have healthier expectations of our marriage. So that real, practically speaking, if you've never sat with your spouse and just very lovingly yet honestly asked, in an ideal situation, how frequently do you wish we had sex in our marriage? And their answer might surprise you. And then just be willing to talk through that about, okay, what can we do to work together on a way that makes this a mutually satisfying marriage.

And mutually satisfying in sexuality? I think just as long as it doesn't get below zero in any kind of a negative experience. Because sometimes it's a one and sometimes it's a nine. Right. In the experience, it can be different levels, but just it's not negative.

For.

If it's negative for any one of the individuals, then voice that and whatever that need is or that issue, work on that, whatever that may be, to find help and a resource that can find healing there.

Totally. So.

So your sexuality is a positive experience.

Right.

And I think it's a good point that we can assume that the other person thinks the same way we do in a lot of different ways. We're not in their brain or their body, and we assume they think the way that I think. And I think. And early on in marriage, that is pretty common. It's like, oh, I think you think like me. You think I think like you. And I want to change that so that you can think like me. And so that's another part of maturity is learning, like, we don't have to be the exact person to get along and to enjoy this relationship. There are going to be places that we move towards each other or towards that middle place. And there are going to be other areas where we are always just opposite from each other. And it's part of this marriage dance that we all do, you know, it's part of it. And the reward is that we have that resilience. Right. To work through these things in our marriage and have this long go together with this one person.

Yeah.

So get dance lessons if you need it so you can make the dance more enjoyable. Right. You're worth it.

Okay, so let's wrap up this episode with encouragement for couples thinking through, like how do we help people? How would we encourage them to work against a comparison mindset and then also working toward finding a healthy rhythm for sexual frequency in their relationship?

Well, I think going back to looking at what matters to us, so this is a unique relationship. This is our marriage dance. What matters to us, what matters to us in all different areas. But the area of sexuality, like Nick said, this is an area that just us share this peace. And so we want to share it, we want to enjoy it, and we want to make it unique to us. And so asking that question, what matters to us in the area of our sexual relationship? What's important to us? And sometimes, like I, I think in a healthy relationship, sometimes it's different than my spouse. So I like analogy Rodney uses, I've heard Rodney use a lot is like, I like to take a walk and I want to take a walk every day. Rodney doesn't always want to take a walk. He's like, I don't know about that, but there are a lot of times that Rodney does that because he's choosing to enjoy that relationship with me and something that's important to me. And I would say the same about sex. Sometimes we think I don't have to want sex, but in a healthy, respectful relationship, I don't want to, you know, I want to give the wrong impression of what I'm saying there. In a healthy relationship, sometimes I'm not feeling like it, but I am bringing pleasure to my spouse because I have respect and he respects me. And we're enjoying a mutual relationship where we give and take in a whole bunch of different areas.

And. But the giving is not out of resentment, it's out of care.

Right.

And it's out of love. Yeah. So that's that. Where other centered self giving is a beautiful piece of, hey, I get to bring this to my spouse because I love them. And again, it's not a negative experience.

Right. I want to make sure people don't hear that out of obligation because I know that can be a touchy point for people sometimes. And really I'm talking about out of a healthy place in our relationship and the give and take of all of those areas.

Yeah. I think the encouragement I would give in thinking about sexual frequency and that comparison mindset is to recognize sometimes what we're chasing after is that fear of missing out of like, well, here's what others are getting. And if, if, if I don't get that from my spouse that I'm somehow missing out on this sexual experience in this one life that I have. And you know, truly that is a golden idol that you cannot ever catch. Because there will always be, whether we're talking sexual frequency or positions or unique experiences or role, like whatever is kind of out there in the world. And now in a very pornified society, no spouse, no marriage can ever accomplish that for a person. And if you're chasing that fear of missing out, it will ultimately lead in a lot of disappointment. And so I think the encouragement is recognizing you can have a completely satisfying, joy filled life as you seek to honor Christ in your life, as you seek to serve and live for him and serve and live for your spouse. And even if that whatever comparison level of frequency or sexual experience doesn't happen, that you won't miss out on any level of goodness that God has for you. And so to me that's kind of a coming back to our faith moment of I can find contentment in Christ and in my self giving love for my spouse. And if it never leads to some ideal frequency that I had once imagined and I'll be okay, I won't be missing out. Because God's goodness isn't contingent on the amount of sex that I have or some experience that's out there. So I think just having that rootedness that God will not leave me wanting if I make his glory and my wife's good or my spouse's good, my goal that ultimately that's gonna be the best for me and for everyone involved.

Yeah, I think about just relationships that we want to be on the same page. And when we are on the same page about things like frequency of sex, bitterness doesn't have much room to grow and tension in a relationship is not going to be around that. I think if we can communicate, and we've talked about it so much, but just communicate, be open, be honest with each other, then we can end up on the same page. And we're working from the same playbook at that point. Rather than having these unmet and uncommunicated expectations, we can just do tons of damage. So.

Sometimes in busy relationships we're just not communicating frequently. Yeah, we're not having that. That's not happening frequently. So in all areas, what's working and what's not working, communicate that on the at the end of each day and make adjustments and keep growing totally.

So it's clear from this time together, from this episode that sexual frequency does not equal sexual health. And we even talked about it. Sometimes a higher frequency can actually be evidence of unhealth in this area. But we hope our conversation gave you some perspective and really opened your eyes to being on the same page with your spouse and understanding that sexual frequency is a rhythm you two figure out inside of your marriage. It's not a comparison game. So we just, we know this is a really difficult topic to talk about. There's a lot of shame. And we hope that this gives you some confidence to start having more conversations, communicating. And we do want married couples to have sex, and it's a beautiful gift from the Lord. And we hope that this helps with the sexual relationship of marriages. And if you're single, this is going to help you too when you get married.

I promise you having the right paradigm.

That's right.

Very, very important.

That's right. Rodney and Tracy, thank you so much for who you are, for being with us. We appreciate your time.

Nice to meet you.

Thank you guys.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.