294 - FAQ #15 - Marriage

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 294 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

By working hard, working real hard, coming in early in the mornings, coming in weekends if we have to. Working hard.

I'm sure it's not, but it sounds like you're doing a George W. Bush voice. That's what it sounds like.

Wow. Way to go. That is my recollection of. It was from. I think Dana Carvey played George W. Bush on Saturday Night Live. And that was a question that was asked of him, was like, sir, how are we gonna solve this financial crisis that the country was in? And that was the answer on Saturday Night Live. And of course, they were poking fun that for a lot of crisis is thrown at George W. Bush. He had answers like that, like, we're just gonna get it done. We're just gonna work hard.

It's that Texas. It's that Texas guy. You know, the guy says, so your.

Answer to our financial crisis is working hard and coming in on the weekends. And the character says, if that's what it takes.

Dana Carvey is incredible at impressions too. So that's. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Well, I'm excited to see how you tie it in. I'm sure I know how, but today we had Ashley Jameson on, who is our associate director of women's groups. And we have another FAQ episode on the docket here. And it's specific to marriages.

Yes. And as we all know, marriages for the long haul, till death do us part, are a lot of work. They take hard work. But it's not just about gritting our teeth and baring it. It's about taking some very practical steps, maybe changing our approach. I think that's what I enjoyed about this episode is just taking some issues. I mean, a lot of these are really common, are real challenging, are very honest things that people are dealing with, and it's going to be hard work. But there are some things we can do that will help us. There are some questions we can ask, directions to take, and I think we just brought up a lot of angles that at some point or another, you'll connect with what you're hearing. And I hope the practical advice given will give you a new perspective to address what might be a very old problem or a familiar problem in your relationship. Yeah.

You know what's interesting? One of the things kind of reflecting on our time with Ashley, like, communication and conversation around this topic is really important. And, you know, one of the things that we offer is a video course called sexual integrity 101. And in so many ways, this helps an individual, a couple, and even a church community start the conversation around sexual integrity and sexual health. Let's tell people a little bit about the video course.

Yeah. You know, that's been a common reaction, too, to how do we fix issues of sexual brokenness, struggles with pornography? We just, we try harder not to do it. We try to read more and pray more and just don't do it. It's kind of our approach, but yet we've seen over and over how ineffective that is, because there are a host of other issues that are contributing to people's struggles from issues happening in the brain, the neurochemistry of addiction, trauma and wounds and patterns that we're stuck in. And many of us that have come out of Christian environments aren't aware of all these factors. And so that was our goal with Sexual Integrity 101 is to give people a deeper understanding of sexual brokenness, what drives it, and what does a holistic view of healing look like, not just a quick fix to not do it anymore. And so whether you are a parent, a spouse, a pastor, or someone struggling yourself, this is information we all need. It's about changing our paradigm of how we view this issue. And. And I think if we all have a more mature, thorough understanding of the problem, then we can also have a more thorough answer as a solution. And so we hope if you haven't gone through SI101, that you'll do it. You could do it as a couple, you could do it as a church or as a small group and really deepen your understanding so that you can be a part of really changing our world for the better in this area of human sexuality.

Yeah, and you can get it in digital format or in DVD with the workbook that comes along with it. If you want more information or wanna purchase the video course, just go to pure desire.org101. All right, a couple things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms and this episode will be up on YouTube. Check that out and also follow us on social media at PureDesire PDMI. And with that, here is our time with Ashley Jamison talking through frequently asked questions about marriage. Ashley Jameson with your new fancy office. Welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you. I have a guest. Hold on.

Oh, that's right. Okay, so listener, if you're not watching the YouTube with this. This is a great reason to go watch the YouTube video. But she has the feelings wheel on a throw pillow on her couch in her office, which is awesome because if.

You can't identify the feeling, then you can just throw it.

That's right. Oh, you must be here. You should tell the story real quick how you ended up with that. So. Because our listeners would want to know.

With the Feelingsville pillow.

Yeah.

Weren't you supposed to bring it?

No, that was.

No, I was supposed to bring the ornaments.

Oh, now she's holding up an ornament of the feelings.

They're all over her office.

Oh, my gosh.

I know. I sent them to all my friends and then, well, I didn't get one.

So that explains a lot.

Oh, wait, I mean, girlfriends. And then when I found this, I saw the feelings of a pillow in my search for the ornaments. So I actually made this.

You know what I want is a feelings wheel spinner that I can hit the thing and just let it land on a feeling and kind of decide, okay, this is how I'm going to feel today. Perplexed.

There you go. Okay, let's. This is great. And I'm sure listeners are appreciating it. But let's get to what we're going to talk about today. We are doing another FAQ episode and with the last, really the last, like five or six, we've done some that are specifically on one topic. And these today are on marriage. And these are not, like, these aren't necessarily questions that listeners have sent in, but like, the three of us for sure have gotten most of these questions often. And so this is something that was very easy for us to put together a list of these questions. And so again, this episode is in February. We're trying to focus on relationships in this month. And so this is one we're hoping for people who are in recovery and healing. These are frequently asked questions we get about being in a marriage that is in the process of recovery and healing. So the first question is when is just to start off with a really easy one. When is the right time to start having sex again? After the disclosure process?

This is a million dollar question, right? We get this one a lot. And I guess there'd be two parts to this question because some people want to know when to start having sex after disclosure, if that's like a formal disclosure, a full disclosure, or after discovery. So I think it could answer the question for either, and it just depends. So if you're looking for a Clean answer. You're not going to get one. It does depend. It is, it is wise to, to kind of take a break, to just like assess what's going on, how you're feeling. Because if it's really unlikely as, especially as a betrayed spouse, that you're going to feel nothing and that trust is going to be there. And it's really important that when you are having sex that you trust the person. Otherwise what happens is that you end up having these battling thoughts and feelings like your body is doing one thing, but your brain and heart are feeling another. And that causes a lot of stress in our body. It causes us to go against our intuition and our feelings of is this person trustworthy enough to be vulnerable with my, with my soul and my body? And so if we're acting against that, it just causes a lot of chaos in our brain. And then that can end up leading to even feeling physical pain during sex because you're going against something, you're forcing your body to do something that it really doesn't want to do. And I, I think that, like, how do I say this? Growing up and hearing, you know, that your, your body is part partly your husband's and you need to be submissive. There's a lot of churched spouses that feel like it's not okay for them to take sex off of the table unless it's for prayer, you know, and, and so when I'm working with betrayed spouses and they're saying, well, it's wrong to not have sex with your spouse, I think that's a mixed, distorted message that we've received as church spouses.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree with the it depends answer completely. Would really encourage people to read the Great Sex Rescue because I think that does change our paradigm of what is the purpose of sex. It's not just meeting one spouse's needs or some duty or obligation. That, that's not, I don't even think the biblical intent in some of those passages. And if we're looking at sexual connection being a mutual experience that is safe, pleasurable, and satisfying, the question is, what will it take to get to that point? And it also may be a question of when is disclosure happening. For some couples, that full disclosure happens earlier in the process. They're reeling with a ton of stuff going on. And there may be a period of time where sexual connection isn't possible or wise or advisable. For other couples, disclosure that full disclosure may be happening six to eight months into a process. It may be not revealing anything new and they're really on a growth track. There's a lot of health. And there may not even be a question of is it okay to reengage sexually because they feel like they've crossed a lot of the hurdles that came up in disclosure anyway. So it's just totally different couple to couple. And I think that's what you have to be okay with, is if you're in a situation where it's taking longer to re. Establish trust, a sense of connection, to look for the opportunities in that and to be okay with it and not feel like, oh, we're on some timeline and if we don't re. Engage sexually by such and such date, we're doing it right. There's not a timeline on this. And on the flip side, if you feel you're able to reconnect sexually right away, to not feel like there's something wrong with that, that why are we doing this? Shouldn't we be waiting a while? It's really asking the question, do we both feel a sense of safety, of trust and a desire to connect? Then it's like, well, do you go for it? God gave you that gift in your marriage, and if either one of you doesn't feel those things, then it's okay to keep hitting the pause button and to keep working through what can help us move towards that place.

Yeah, that's literally the two words I wrote were just safe and ready. Do both spouses feel safe and ready to do it? And if yes, then yes. If no, then no, don't do it.

Yeah. And I would say, like referring to the unhealthy and healthy sexuality chart is a, is a good way to kind of take a pulse on if you're both feeling healthy in that and, and also there. I know we'll probably end up talking about this and I'm like, so big on the gray area right now. But I have, I will have periods where it's like, in my recovery action plan, this is what it says because this is what I've discovered about myself and how long it takes me to process and feel safe and need this or that. But I've also told John, if there's a relapse, it honestly takes me like one to two years to get fully back to my normal self of feeling safe and confident. But it's this, it's this battle in my head of, okay, everything's lining up. It's going to take time to feel comfortable again because it takes time to get certain thoughts and images out of your head and rewiring your brain and processing and understanding that it's not about your lack of beauty or your lack of ability or, you know, so it's not just like, okay, this is the day, and then we'll have sex and then everything's back to normal. It could still be a process of feeling fully comfortable again.

And I think for the spouse who's been struggling with an addiction, those are words they really need to hear. That when you use a phrase like one to two years, the struggling or addicted spouse has often felt like, well, we dealt with that two weeks ago, aren't we good to go? And, you know, and maybe even if they've started to reconnect sexually, that spouse might think, hey, we're all back to normal. Well, whereas the reality is trauma and woundedness may take a long, long time to fully heal from. And if you're in that place that it's taking a while to make sure you're not shaming yourself or shaming your partner, like, why don't you hurry up and get better? I mean, if they're trying to do some work towards healing it, it may just be a process. And I think taking a deep breath at times and being okay with the process taking time. I go back to what I've said about marriage is like one of the beauty of a Christ centered marriage is that we've said till death do us part, which means time is on your side. Like, we're not going anywhere. We're not, you know, there's not something that expires in six months that now the marriage won't work. Like, you've committed to death. Till death do us part. And if your spouse is in that commitment with you, and I know some people listening, their marriage isn't in that place that one spouse or the other is thinking of getting out or has left. And that's a totally different ball game. But if you're both really seeking to honor your marriage commitment, time's on your side. So be patient with yourself and be patient with one another. So going back to what you said, Ashley, about you're all in the gray areas right now. Here's one of those kind of gray area questions when it comes to a betrayed partner's boundaries. So things that they need from their spouse in order to feel safe, in order to feel like progress is happening, when might it be okay for the struggling spouse to push back on some of those boundaries, assuming that they're establishing some health and making progress? How do we have this conversation without blowing things up?

Yeah.

Oh my gosh I have, like, a little, like, a heat fireball in my. Right under my sternum right now, because it's, like, bringing me back to these conversations. Yeah, I have a lot of experience with this, and these are. I. I'm really glad we're doing this episode because these are really, really hard questions. And if people find themselves really stuck, that's where having a mentor or counselor is going to be so important so that they can really do the deep dive to fig why they're still feeling unsafe and where they're stuck. But a. But a bigger general answer is, you know, John, the thing I think about right now is going to the gym. That. That came off the table for us right away because it was such a trigger for me. And it also was a trigger for him, you know, as far as help. Helping to, like, aid his relapse. And so that came off the table for three years, and that was really hard because he's a firefighter, and he actually gets paid an hour a day to work out. So he had to find other ways to work out. And I'm like, I don't care what the government's paying you for, you're not going to the gym. But after three years, it's like he. I would say one year in, he said, okay, what do we think about going to the gym again? And I was like, I don't know how that makes sense because you're still struggling in this way or that I'm still feeling a lack of safety in this area. And so it kind of just. We decided it wasn't a good option. And then another two or three years down the road, he approached it again. And he. And he was very kind in the way that he approached it. Like, can we talk about the gym when you get home? It wasn't, like, springing it on me, because in the past, it was. It would come up when things were tense or when I was feeling triggered or when he was feeling smothered. And so that was, like, not a good idea. If you're going to approach the subject, make sure you're doing it out of a moment of health and when things are feeling secure and stable, because then it's like, let's talk about this. And he came home and we talked about it, and he gave his reasons why. And he, you know, showed me in the areas that he's grown and then also gave me a list of things that he would watch out for. And then stop going to the gym or maybe switch over to, like. Like a specialty gym where there's just more guys, you know, if those things started creeping up again. And I had to get to the point where I was willing to trust that. And so it really needed to happen when I had had enough healing from betrayal to get to a place where, okay, now I'm feeling like I'm. I'm pretty much healed from my betrayal. Couple years of work, and I felt safe and stable enough to say, you know, even if he makes a mistake, it's okay, because I wasn't in this place of trauma. And. And then the last thing that I did was tell him, these are the things that I need to see if you go back to the gym. So one behavior that used to happen was if he would get stressed at home with the kids or with me, he'd be like, I'm going to the gym, and then slam out and shut the door. And so that is super triggering, because you're leaving when you're basically running from tension at home to go to a place that has historically led to relapse. And then the other one would be, if you're on your way home and you say you're going to be home at this time and I'm expecting it, then don't text me and say, well, I'm going to go to the gym for an hour. And then the third one was he would sometimes go to the gym twice a day. And I felt like that was a little obsessive, like, once in the morning for cardio and once in the afternoon for weights. And so those were the three parameters that I felt like I needed to verbalize, and he agreed with those. And so it ended up. I mean, he's. He's fine going to the gym now, but that's just the kind of conversation we had to have around that. And I think that can apply to any area you're wanting to stretch. But the first time, I was like, no, that's not gonna work for me. Yeah, I don't feel safe at all.

The two things in what you said that I think stick out to me are, like, having a plan, how important that is. It's not just like, yeah, sure, go back to the gym. And we don't talk about how you'll manage that situation or what parameters you're putting around it. I think that that's huge. But then you mentioned at the top of your answer that having trusted friends or a counselor or someone who can help you both process through it. If you get to a point where you're locking horns and you can't Seem to get anywhere. Inviting feedback of a trusted person is going to be super helpful to just help you make sense of that and then maybe get clarity on the direction that you need to go as a couple.

If you're the addicted, struggling spouse in this situation, the worst question you can ask your spouse is, well, why don't you trust me? And I made that mistake. So learn from my experience, because they're gonna look at you and say, duh. Isn't it obvious in my story, too? When I was 15, I got scratched in the face by a cat, and it really hurt. And I've never been scratched by a cat since. But I'll tell you, every time even I'm around our cats at our home, that thought will come back into my mind. Like, cats are a little weary. Don't trust them. And it's not because the cats we have are wicked. That was a really painful memory. And I think sometimes we need to recognize the pain that was created in relapse, discovery, disclosure. It will always be in their mind in some sense, even if a lot of healing occurs. And so to ask them to trust me, like, there's just going to be this carte blanche, 100%. I trust you absolutely. And I'm never worried about being hurt again. I don't know if it's a realistic expectation. And so if you are the struggling or addicted spouse feeling like there's a boundary that could be changed, you're able to handle a new level of freedom. I think there are better questions you could ask your spouse. Things like, could you help me understand why this boundary is helpful to you? What is it helping us build in our marriage? And really listen to their perspective. Another question you could ask is, as we bring up this topic, what are you feeling? What is the fear or the hesitation, the concern? Help me understand. Going back to that, what is it that you're feeling in this moment? And the third question that I think is helpful is to discern, is this a current concern that you have, or is it triggering the same memories and pain? Because if it's more an issue of triggering the same memories and pain, then I think, like Ashley said, maybe there are different ways we could go about it that would help them feel like, okay, it's not going to trigger all those feelings, because currently they say, no, I'm not concerned about this currently. It's just that it triggers the old stuff. Okay, well, now we can work with it. But if they say, no, it's a current concern, and here's why, then you need to listen to that, because there have been blind spots that we've had that are a big part of our pattern and why we've struggled. And our spouse honestly is able to see them better. And if they still have concerns that this is a blind spot for you, then that's part of the purpose of having the boundary. And maybe another conversation also could be not getting rid of it, but maybe there's a change that can be made to it that would allow maybe some latitude without completely getting rid of the boundary.

Totally.

Yeah. I think that's such a good point, Nick. The questions that you brought up, because, like, weighing the two things that were big triggers for me other than porn and lying and all that, are the video games and the gym. And so when I would look at. I'm talking about a couple years in, when I look at the video games, I could see blind spots like, you are mean. You don't get your work done, then your procrastination turns into this anger that's unleashed on the family. And. But then with the gym, when we sat down and had that conversation, we boiled it down to, I was afraid he would think other women were prettier than me. And I'm like, that's not gonna ever change. And that's not. That's not helpful to either one of us. And it's not something that I have control over. And those same pretty people at the gym also go to the grocery store or are at our kids sports games or, you know, so that's where I did realize that my biggest fear was not being like attractive in his eyes and those kinds of things versus on the video game side, that there's like a direct path that leads to him being unhealthy and relapsing. So those questions are really helpful. Which kind of leads into our next question, that when we're changing or redefining a boundary, how can we do this while still maintaining safety for a betrayed partner? And how do we determine if the boundary is more about control for the partner?

Yeah, I think we want to be really careful when we start bringing up that phrase like control for the partner and maybe accusing them, you're controlling me. If they are having some really strong reactions to boundaries, there's a reason for that. That desire to control, I don't think is like human manipulation. It's a protective measure. And we really need to keep digging into why the need to protect what is it that I've done. And sometimes it's just like I was mentioning earlier, it's just a Matter of time, like, you need to continue consistently in this healthy growth so that they really do come to a place where they feel peace and calm around you. And that need to control or protect themselves, I think will begin to diminish. But as soon as we, as the struggling spouse bring up like, you're just trying to control me, like, that will tend to not be a positive conversation at all. So I think again, a question you can ask is saying to your spouse, you know, why is this a helpful boundary to you? What about this boundary does help you feel safe? Because there might be an angle to it or something that you hadn't realized? Say, oh, I think we can still maintain that safety for you while maybe still letting me take some new steps and work on it. I think another thing that is helpful is if there's really a commitment by that struggling spouse to say, this isn't just a once and for all time, like, okay, you can have, I mean, let's say you can have a Facebook account again. That doesn't mean now and forever. I think it's helpful spouse to say, what if we did a 30 day trial? Like, you get this back, let's see how it handles. See how I feel then I think the spouse who's been betrayed or is feeling all the woundedness can kind of navigate it with you. And if after 30 days it's still triggering, it's still bringing up too much fear and memory and pain, like, okay, we're, we're not ready yet and for us to be respectful of it, but maybe it does become an avenue of all. I see a healthy way that we can use this again. So those are a couple of things. Just asking good questions and maybe making some of the changes temporary with a commitment to coming back and rediscussing. Is this working or not?

Yeah. And I think again, it's a similar answer to the previous question is involving a trusted couple or a trusted counselor into this process can help because then you have an advocate that's helping you make sense of what's being communicated, that maybe, you know, a betrayed partner isn't able to articulate why a fantasy football league or something like that is so difficult, or a Facebook account or going to the gym. But if you have people who know you well enough and are in that inner circle, they can help you make sense of that and ask questions and explore. And I think that that's really, I mean, my answer to this is just asking questions and exploring opportunities, options. You know, I think, you know, doing like a 30 day trial makes total sense to me. I'm even thinking that maybe you get to day three and something really triggering happens for the betrayed partner. If you can have a conversation and explore why you feel that way in a way that, like, let's just explore what's going on. I think that that can be helpful, because at the end of that conversation, the betrayed partner might be like, okay, I realized that maybe there was something outside of both of our control that triggered that. Or the addicted spouse or the one who's in recovery might say, you know what? Let's pause on this. Let's give it a little bit more time. And so just going into it with humility, knowing you're trying to protect your marriage, not whether you're allowed to do one thing or the other, I think that perspective can help.

Yeah, I like that too, that it doesn't just go from, like, black to white or white to black, but that, you know, trying things out and coming back. When. When John started going to the gym, we decided I would go with him. So then on the days where he went, I went with him. And then after a while, I was like, I don't want to go with you every time, so you're good, you know, but it made me feel safe enough to. To do that. And I think you can apply that in a lot of areas. Not every area, but it might be okay. We have a joint Facebook account, or we have a joint social media account to start with, or, sure, we can go back to watching movies at the movie theaters, but let's do that together. Or. Or just. And just having a lot of good communication. Anytime we've put a. We've kind of stretched a boundary, there's been extra communication. Like, just got to the gym, gonna do some cardio and arms today. And for some reason, that just helps, you know, it. It takes the wonder of the unknown out. Yeah. And so extra communication whenever stretching a boundary is, I think, really helpful.

Is that what you did? Did you make John take pictures of his biceps and send them to you while he's doing curls or.

I did, yes. Yeah, I did.

Good to know.

I want to be on Facebook live.

There are people who do that, actually, so that wouldn't be too far outside our culture.

Vloggers.

All right, the next question is, what do I do if I'm not attracted to my spouse any longer? And that's mixed with. I also don't trust them. How do we encourage people in that situation?

I think those go hand in hand. And I know this sounds like such a Funny question, but I, I just helped a woman through this the other day. And you know, they've been married 14 years or so and, and it is a question that we get because when you don't trust somebody and when they're behaving in a way that is hurtful to you, they just become so ugly, like they're chewing, annoys you, everything. And so I know that it feels in that moment like I don't think I could ever trust this person again. And that's not true. It's just the moment that you're in. Like, I will say that it is so possible to get back to that place of adoring your spouse and loving them and trusting them if all the work is done and, and people really dive into their healing and recovery process. But if you are feeling like that you won't be attracted to your spouse again or you'll never trust them again, that is a lie. I mean, it's, it's possible that that could also happen and we can't control the other person. But more often than not, when we see people come in and get help and do group and counseling and, and recommit to trying to rebuild the marriage, that, that does come back. And a lot of times what we hear from couples is that they love each other even more now than they did before because of the level of self awareness, the level of respect for each other, honoring each other's boundaries, understanding their own needs. That's all stuff that sometimes we don't get any of that until we do hit crisis. And, and that's a really attractive quality. And so that's why you hear people say, you know, I love hanging out with people who have been through the recovery or people who have been through recovery. Their personalities are very attractive because of that self assuredness and awareness. And I, and so I just want to say that the attraction probably ebbs and flows with the level of disconnect and mistrust. So when somebody says they're not attracted to their husband anymore, I'll ask what's going on emotionally and what's been happening in the marriage? Is there any rats? Is there any. What's changed in the marriage? And, and every single time something has changed. And so a practical tip, I think I wrote about this in the blog. I can't remember what it's called. Good marriage, good sex maybe, or something. But if you're in a place where you want to learn to retrust and reef and become attracted again and maybe re. Engage in sexual intimacy, I tell women Go back to that place where you were attracted. So go back to remembering when you were dating or early in your marriage and you couldn't wait to be married, and you couldn't wait to, like, have no boundaries on your sexual life and how attracted you were and what were the things that attracted you to that person in the first place. I know it sounds so, like, elementary, but that really does work, because the more time we spend in the room of our brain that says, they're disgusting, I'm so unattracted, I don't trust them, that's just going to reinforce those pathways and that kind of thinking. And so you really do have to try hard to go back and say, what am I attracted? Write down things that you admire about your spouse every day, things that you do think are attractive, and try to bring your brain back to that side of thinking.

It is a unique combination of two words. And so if you're gonna deal with one attractiveness or trust, it's always, like Ashley said, deal with the trust. Because I really believe, as we've seen, our brains are moldable and shapeable. And I think attractiveness will follow connection and trust. And so you could work all day on changing their behaviors and appearance. But if. If fundamentally there's still a real disconnect at that trust level, you're not going to get very far. And I think it may be having the boldness to go to your spouse and say, here are some things going on that make me not trust you. And I think you need to be aware of it, because if I can't trust you, we're going to be challenged to build a healthy relationship and just be honest about what is triggering that sense of untrust and believing that if we will work on that and make progress there, the attraction will come. Because there isn't, as we've brought up other places, too, there's not a standard of beauty. I mean, our world creates a standard of beauty. And so the more we look at the standard of beauty the world creates and compare our spouse to it, like, well, yeah, we're gonna have attractiveness issues, because no one can compare to some of that perfected imagery from our world. So that may be another step to consider, too. If you're spending a lot of time getting enamored with what's in the world, whether through movies or social media or books you read, and you realize you're developing an image of the perfect spouse that's very different than yours, you need some healthy disengagement from those things. Because God has made our brains to work that what we look at and really cherish becomes attractive to us. So there may need to be some areas as you do this work of building trust that you don't continue to let your brain go towards a very false image of what is beauty or attractiveness.

I think the only thought I would give is just this is not all that different of a question of, like, how do you grow closer to your spouse? I think you find things that you enjoy to do together. Like you find ways to be intimate emotionally and depending on where your relationship. And that's, that's the answer to almost all of these questions is, well, it depends on where your relationship is. But if you're in a place where trust has, like, there are some steps being taken in recovery and you see that there are some, there are some reasons why you can trust your spouse. And then I think finding ways to like, go on a walk and talk with them or play a board game or do something that maybe doesn't have to do with, especially sexual intimacy because that could be so injured when it comes to this, you know, this area, people on this journey. So I think finding ways, kind of what you were saying, Ashley, of remembering why you were attracted to them and love them in the first place, like, you know, exploring that too, that. Oh yeah, I remember they're really funny, you know, but that wouldn't maybe happen if you're not spending quality time together, maybe playing a card game or watching a movie or something like that.

Yeah, I, I am a big on communication too. So John has been told, when I wake up at five in the morning and see you playing video games over reading your Bible, it is so unattractive to me. Like, for some reason I do not find you sexy when that happens. It has nothing to. I mean, it's not like it changes his physical appearance, but it's just not attractive. And when I see him doing things with our kids or being healthy, it is attractive. And so I've just told him before, don't you want to do more of the things that make me like, I mean, not that you're doing it for me, but if, you know, here's a list of things I do that just really turns Ashley on. Like, why wouldn't you do those things instead of the things that are like, repulsive to me? And I don't know why it goes hand in hand. Maybe just being a woman, you are, you're drawn to that protector, that nurturer. And so that is so attractive. And then, you know, of Course, there's other things, like telling him to shave his sideburns off before we got married like that, you know.

We digress. Oh, man. Let's jump into the next one because this is a biggie. This question came in, says this. After committing to the recovery and healing process, many couples do well and stay on track for several years. But about five years into the process, out of nowhere, relapse happens. Why is this? And what can a couple do to help prevent this from happening?

Yeah, I think two things came to mind with this question. And one is being aware that there are times on the recovery journey where you can fall into the like, I've arrived perspective. Like, I've done enough work, you know, and that's. I think that that's why a number like five years that happens is because, like, you have a proven track record of making healthy decisions and managing your sexuality in a healthy way and communication and emotional awareness. But then something happens in life that maybe didn't happen in the last five years and something changes. And so I think we fall prey to the like, I've arrived. I can just put it in cruise control when growth and maturity and recovery and healing don't just happen on cruise control. But then the other thing is, with that kind of I've arrived perspective that we can carry is also assuming that my life is never going to change and the dynamic is never going to change and difficulty isn't going to come out of nowhere because, like, situation and context of maybe what worked five years ago for you in recovery, the same plan's not gonna work today. You know, maybe your marriage isn't a healthier place, but maybe your relationship with your kids is different. Or maybe you have stress at work that you didn't have five years ago, or maybe there was a death in your family and trauma happened. Like, to just assume that the same, like, you know, play calling is gonna work now that worked five years ago. I think you can fall into just being ignorant about that. And so I think those are the two things I would encourage to prevent is just making sure you don't fall prey to that I've arrived. And then make sure that your plan for recovery and healing is an ever growing and evolving thing to fit the context of where you're at in life right now.

Yeah, I like everything you said, Trevor. I can get bored easily. And so if I'm doing the same recovery plan or healing plan for a few years, then that gets boring. And I know that happened with John at one point where it's like he was getting bored. And so finding something to change it up and, and do something different, whether that's, you know, engaging in a different active service in your community or finding different content to read and just keeping things fresh and, and that's why I think keeping a touch point with your spouse is good because then you guys can say, okay, what's going on and what do we need for next week? And maybe try to change it up. But one thing that I see with couples is if they're, if they're only getting healing for recovery from their addiction and healing from the betrayal, and then they don't go to that third step of trying to reconnect, re, engage and heal the relationship dynamic, then they can get stuck. And so some people feel like, okay, I've worked through my betrayal trauma and I've, I'm sober from my acting out and then that's it. And it's not. You have to keep going and heal the relationship too, and start growing that and re establishing trust in that.

Yeah. What I would say about this question is there's no such thing in my experience as out of nowhere. We might say it came out of nowhere or feel if we're the one learning about what's been going on, but it's never out of nowhere. If this happened at year five, it's likely that in year three, some things started to slip. Yeah, there were guardrails that weren't being followed because of just what you guys have both said. We've arrived, we're good, we're past this. And yet the truth is we are all still human beings with struggles and flaws and weaknesses and an old nature that is prone to sin. And if we're not aware of that, that is the sense in which we must always move towards healthy behaviors, restoring behaviors. Because if we ignore boundaries and then often what you said, Trevor too, of those situations that can occur, I've found it's usually a combination of things that I've not been in people's stories. They've not been observing their boundaries and something maybe new happens in their life. A job change, a death in the family, there's an environment they're not typically in. And then all these things kind of start to come together and there's some relapses and it's not out of nowhere. So I really encourage couples like every six months or maybe every three months just to have a sit down of like, what hurdles are we facing? What are the challenges? What are the areas where we need healthy guardrails and just Kind of feeling like we're staying aware of our health not because relapse is imminent, but because we know if we don't do that over time, relapse tends to come back in because those are the areas we're prone to and we have to stay self aware of them. Yep.

Yeah. So when you change your air filters for your house every six months, also.

Sit down and establish Ashley's. So practical. Practical shave your sideburns schedule. Oh, my gosh. You know what, I'm just gonna say this right here. We need to have John on the show eventually because we have heard so much of John's story from Ashley, but he's never gotten to actually share it himself.

There you go.

Okay, go ahead.

Okay. But I will say, the other day, we were sitting on the couch watching the Biggest Loser the other night, and he was like, I could feel him burning the hole in my side of my head, staring at me. And I look back and he has tears in his eyes. And he just thanks me for being a great wife and for caring about people and fighting for a marriage. And I was like, where did that come from? He's like, I don't know. I was just thinking about it. So I doubt he'd have bad stories for me.

Okay.

Because he loves me.

Well, we'll dig. That'll be fun.

No, just kidding. I have a lot of flaws. Okay, so is it okay to be angry about something that we've already dealt with? And does this mean that we haven't forgiven in that area?

No, you can't be angry. Yes, it means you haven't forgiven. Next question. So, boy, these multi part questions, there's so much to talk about here. You know, is it okay even the way that question is being asked? I think there is a danger that we can shame ourselves for feeling strong emotions, especially if we grew up in a very conservative home, Christian home, in many of those environments, and I would include my upbringing, strong emotions of any kind were looked down on and particularly those we perceive to be more negative, like anger, frustration, doubt, fear. Like, you just weren't supposed to feel those things and if you did, you were supposed to feel it privately for some reason. So even asking the question, is it okay? Like let's start there and just say, don't shame yourself for your emotions. You're experiencing emotions because of a variety of things and emotions are indicators of something deeper going on. And so when you start out by saying, is it okay? The answer is, yes, it is okay to feel emotions, but then it's to Go to the next step of saying, why? Where is it coming from? What's driving it? And does that mean I haven't forgiven? No, absolutely not. Because forgiveness isn't an emotional decision. Forgiveness is a decision of the will to say, I am not going to hold this against this person. It's not my place to judge. That's the Lord's. And I am out of my will saying, there's forgiveness. But forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. Forgiveness doesn't mean acting like it never happened. Forgiveness doesn't mean it didn't hurt or I'm over the hurt. There may be a much longer process. Now, I do think it's okay to have forgiveness come out of a place where when I make that decision in my will to forgive, I'm doing it with all the information and with intentional purpose. Because I don't think we just, in the moment, immediately forgive. So that's another conversation. But I think it's very possible that we may still be dealing with hurt, woundedness, anger and trauma for a long time beyond when we've chosen to forgive. And that doesn't mean we haven't forgiven. It just means there's still internal work to do and things that we need to process. So I would say don't necessarily connect the two. They don't go together. And if you're feeling anger, it's just to ask the question of why and is it current things that are triggering it that just remind me there's still some work to be done there, or is it something else entirely that just sometimes we'll find there's an emotional connection to a story we didn't realize? And we're angry again, like, oh, I didn't even think about the way those two connect in my mind. And so it can be an opportunity for learning and for growth.

You literally covered everything I wrote down for my answer, but I'll just pivot then. And I had this experience with my 5 year old just a couple days ago, Brady. He got. I'm sitting at my table and I can't see him, but I know he's playing with Legos. And then I hear something crash on the floor. And I see Legos literally 15ft away, like, fly over my table. And I'm like, hey, bud, what just happened? And he got angry and he threw the Lego down on, you know, on the ground. And I'm like, all right, go to your room. And had this whole. I'm not gonna. I don't really want to relive it actually, but it was rough for a little while. But we ended up having this conversation where. And this is. I'm so thankful for the work of recovery that, you know, I've done and that I've gotten to work here because this is the stuff that I learn all the time is I was able to go into his room and like, look, man, it's okay that you got angry. Like, let's just leave it there. It's okay that you got angry. It's how you act when you're angry that makes it good or bad. Like, are you. Are you able to manage your anger in a healthy way and talk to me and ask for help or tell mom and dad that you're angry, or are you gonna throw your Legos and cause a mess and, you know, ruin all the work me and your mom have done to put these Legos together for you? Something like that. But I think, I don't know why, but that's just coming to mind right now is like, it's okay to be angry. And I know you just said that, Nick, but just to double down on it, that anger by itself is not sin. Anger by itself is not a bad emotion. There's no such thing as a bad emotion. It's an emotion that we perceive as negative, but we were given the ability to be angry. It's part of being made in God's image. God got angry. But it's what we do with that that I think is so important. And I agree with you. Equating am I angry? Am I not with have I forgiven or have I not? That's just, it's not a one to one.

No, I. And I've been told in some of the spouses in my groups, and I don't know if this is just the nature of, you know, interpreting scripture that we need to forgive and, and just beliefs maybe that we've inherited that anger is bad. And so I've been told when I've been struggling or when I struggled in the past. Are you sure that you've forgiven? Because if I express that I'm angry about something, it means that I haven't forgiven it. That. That lingering emotion. And I guess you can insert anything in there, sadness, despair, grief, hopelessness. But voicing that that's how I'm feeling is then followed with, are you sure you've forgiven? Because people have the idea that when we forgiven that the emotions should be neutral or happy. And that's sometimes what keeps our betrayed spouses stuck in wanting to forgive is that they think that it means everything's okay, now, and those. Those are not those. You can still process and say, you know, I'm having some feelings right now, and I'm. I'm angry again. Like, I'm angry again that my brother died. It doesn't mean that I'm stuck there. It just means that I'm having an emotion or a feeling, and that's life, you know? So to not be afraid of voicing those, voicing how you're feeling. Like, I bawled when I took the anger test in Betrayal and Beyond because it scored so high. And I'm like, I'm not angry. I mean, like, I would throw dishes, and I still thought I wasn't angry because anger was not an emotion you're allowed to have. And so, yeah, it can be really eye opening. But, yeah, can definitely still feel feelings even though you've forgiven or are moving on in the process.

Totally. Throwing dishes, throwing shoes at your kids. There's a lot going on there.

I don't do that anymore.

Okay, so the next question is and faq. So it's just sometimes we're just turning. But what can a partner do if their spouse has been in recovery for several years, gained sobriety, is sexually healthy, but still lacks emotional, relational health, emotional awareness, or even connection? What do we do in that situation?

Good question.

Yeah. I mean, like any question where we're asking, what can I do to change my spouse, something I don't like about them? That's always a difficult area because we don't always have the ability to change other people. But I think it is an area that we can always communicate, and how we approach that conversation is important. And so maybe going to our spouse and saying, would you be open to a conversation about our marriage? Would you be open to me sharing something that's been on my mind and that I really feel would help us grow as a couple. And if it's the right timing, they say yes. Then opening up and just communicating how you feel, that, hey, I'm proud of you for the steps you've taken. I'm excited about the sobriety and the freedom and what a journey. But I'm still feeling this lack of connection. Maybe you need to bring up. Here are things you do that make me feel like we're emotionally separated or that there's not compassion and empathy and what would that look like? So I think bringing up what you see and observe and trying to do it in a non condemning, non judgmental way puts it out on a platter for them to then look at and analyze and figure out if they're going to do something about it, and if. If they have a loving, kind heart, they want their marriage to grow and be successful, hopefully they do take your words and go, oh, well, I'd like to work on that. And let's take some steps on the flip side of that. I do also just want to bring up. I think we all have to be careful that we're not expecting our spouse to meet all of our emotional, relational connection needs or that they're not becoming kind of our escape when we're feeling down. Because I know that's a trap I can fall into is if I'm feeling hurt by something that happened in a work situation or just overwhelmed by life, sometimes I can look to my wife and feel like, well, you're supposed to care. You're supposed to make me feel better. But that's really not her job. Now, as a couple, do we want to have emotional connection? Sure. But if I'm expecting her to fix me, to make me feel that connection, I may have unhealthy expectations of my spouse. And so we just have to be aware of that side, too. Like, am I finding emotional connection in my faith with God and the presence of the Spirit in my life? Do I have significant friendships? Do I have a support group? Do I have others that I go to that are a part of a network of making me feel relationally connected? Because if I don't, it may be possible that I'm looking at my spouse to meet needs that even if they were perfect, they wouldn't be able to meet all those needs. So I think those are the two sides of it. Communicate your needs. Communicate what you see, but also be aware of. Are my expectations from my spouse healthy and realistic?

Yeah.

Yeah. I like what you said, Nick, about that balance of making sure you have outside things that give you that emotional fulfillment and connection. Because I don't. I think I've only been bored, like, twice in my whole life and probably was when I was in the hospital. Like, I am never bored ever. You know, I'm like, okay, John's gone for a couple days. I'm gonna do this and this. And it's just like, I shift what I'm doing. And. And I think that's taking growth because early in our marriage, I relied on him for everything. And so it was like, oh, if he's gone, then I'm gonna be sad. But I. I do think, for me, this is harder than just the black and white of relapsing, bisexually, acting out. This is an area that can be super hard when I will see, you know, when I'll be telling John a story and I can just like see his eyes are like, sunken in and like glazed over. And there's times where I'm like, you are not listening to me. And he's like, I'm not. And. And he'll say he's not. And I'm like, there's this look that he get know he's in another land. And so I won't even try at that point. Like, I. I'm not always necessarily angry. I'll be like, I'm not going to expect to get something out of you because I can see you're not interested. So I'm going to go call my sister or call one of my best friends. But then at other times, if it's. If it's chronic and you can tell somebody's in like an emotionally disconnected place that can be really destructive on a marriage. And so you really do have to figure out what's going on there and. And try to work through that. Because that chronic feeling of being emotionally disconnected leads to lonely loneliness in marriage. And I think that's when people really start to struggle. And there's been times where I found myself there and I'm like, I just can't wait for him to relapse again because then he's going to realize he's in this area that is taking him down, but it's not clear enough to. To. To cause the change, you know, so just don't stay stuck there. I think it's okay that we don't always get our fulfillment or emotional connection from our spouse. But one verbalize it. John said that to me before. I feel emotionally disconnected because I can get really busy and outrun my grief and outrun my anger and stress and worry and just be chronically busy. And so when he verbalizes that, I have to sit down and think, why am I not settling down enough to be present with my spouse? Yeah. But, yeah, just do not let it be chronic. That just destroys. I think that's when we see people like, oh, we just grew apart. You know, you let that wedge get bigger and bigger.

Totally. Yeah. The only things I'll just say is like, I'm the type personality that I need something to like, control. And the only thing you control is what you are doing. So just continue pursuing your health. Like, even though you may have this, there are things you can do to make sure that you're moving forward in your healing. And so whether that's joining a group, being in therapy, meeting with friends on a regular basis for check ins. Like, control what you can control because you cannot control your spouse.

Yeah. And I think just like we say about trauma, I would say about this, be patient. I mean, if you're in your 50s and you're married to someone who grew up in a home where emotions weren't allowed, they've learned to just be kind of emotionally numb and you're a couple years into healing, this is like learning a whole new language. Like, have emotions and feelings and then to care about your emotions and feelings. Like, for some people, that. That is like, it feels to them like changing who they are. And so it might take time, it might be a longer process than you expect. So look for patience when you can. Here's another great one. Over to you, Trevor. What if I can see that my spouse is triggered? And I want to help, but I don't want to make it worse by saying anything. How can I help without risking making things worse?

This is a tough situation, especially if, I mean, I think if you're a Christian for sure, but even more so if you're a man, because we get into the fixer mindset. And so it's just like, oh, well, if I can just say the right thing or be funny or do something, then it'll take my spouse out of it. But I think that even to just use the words you just used, be patient, it's okay to take a beat, take a breath, give her some space, and let this moment pass. I think one of the things too is like, and this only you know where your spouse is at. But there have been times where I can tell that something has overwhelmed Amy and I can. You know what? I'm not even gonna pretend like I've done this. I don't know for sure if I've done this before. This is what I would recommend, though, is that asking, is this something that we could talk about later? And if the answer is yes, great, give it space. Come back to it later when things have, you know, equilibrium. Again, the answer is no. Still respect that and give space. But again, we want to get to the point where we're sharing those sort of things, why we got triggered, what brought it on. And so I think just first and foremost, don't get in there and try to solve it right away. Give it space and time. And if you be patient, then that gives you a much better chance to have a conversation where you can unpack it and figure out what was going on.

Yeah, I think that's good advice. I've had to learn to give space because I was like the chaser, you know, and make things worse. And so just understanding that everybody's going to get a better result if, if you guys can figure out when to best communicate what you both need and compromise is going to benefit everybody. But I would also say ask your spouse, your betrayed spouse, what, what it is you can do or say to help in those moments that they're feeling triggered because then then you'll know, you know, like if I am feeling triggered and maybe John puts his hand on me and that's not helpful, then he shouldn't do that. But we need to communicate. But if he says, are you feeling triggered? Do you want to talk about it? And then just leaving it open ended.

Yeah.

And that's helpful, then that's something he should know. So it takes some work on the betrayed partner's side to figure out what it is you need. So if you're feeling triggered and let's say you're feeling insecure, angry, or all these things, it might take talking it out with somebody, it might take journaling, it might take looking at your feelings wheel and figuring out, boiling it down to what do I need? Early in our recovery, I would just like start spewing all these things and then it would feel like it got twisted back on me and now I'm the one who's the bad guy. When I was just trying to express my emotions, but what I realized was I was expressing just like everything that was coming in my head and like, I'm so angry at you and you didn't come home from work on time. When really, when I boiled it down, I could say I'm feeling, I'm feeling inadequate because I saw something that I know is, you know, attractive to you and I don't feel like I can measure up. Well, that's a whole different conversation. So it does take work on the betrayed spouse side because then I have to take that and say, what is it that John could do? You know, that that would help me and if there's something he could do, then I need to articulate that. But if not, it may just be an instance where I verbalize I'm feeling inadequate, I'm feeling triggered, and I think I need to work through this and maybe just giving it voice is all I need to do. But you do need to figure out what it is you need and if it's something that your spouse can actually help you with or if it's something that you have to work through.

Yeah. And you want to have this conversation at a time when neither of you are triggered. So finding that safe space where you can look back and say, when you are triggered with anger at our kids, for example, what could I do to help? Do you want me to just stay out of the way? Should I offer to take the kids? Do we need a code word? Is there something I could say that isn't going to make it worse? But I'm seeing that you're amping up, and I become fearful that you may lash out or say something you regret or whatever. The history has been there. And allowing for that conversation to take place when there is the ability to really talk it through. And if it's about your relationship, you know, there's a great tool called the Aftermath of a Regrettable Incident. It's by the Gottman Institute. Gottman Marriage Institute. That just kind of gives you a framework to walk through, okay, what happened? How could we handle it better? What do we need to take ownership of that could give you really good insights into a marriage situation of being triggered? And that's the last thing I wanted to say. If you are the source of the trigger, the reality is you may not be able to help. If it's something you've done that causes the pain, the anger, the hurt, you may have to just back off and hope that they can find help through a group member, a friend. And other than to stop doing what you're doing that's triggering them, that's probably the best thing you can do is, like, go work on your stuff. Because if you've triggered them by, they caught you on Facebook and maybe you weren't looking at anything bad, but Facebook is your guardrail that you're not going to be on it. When they aren't aware or you've got parameters, they're triggered. You can't fix it other than to stop breaking that boundary. So just be sensitive to, am I the source of the trigger? And if so, my ability to be the source of the solution is going to be much, much less.

Yeah, that's such a good point, Nick. And if you are busting a boundary and your spouse is triggered, don't try to deny it or talk them out of that or tell them that they are safe and there's nothing to worry about because that's gaslighting. Maybe in that state, in that situation, you would say, I'm sorry, I've triggered you. Is there something I can do? Would it be helpful if I take the kids, you know, tomorrow so you can go out and have dinner with your sister or your. One of your group members. And so, yeah, no, like, mind games, if that. You know, just be honest. Full honesty, for sure. Okay. Another 180 pivot. When is a therapeutic separation necessary in recovery and healing? And how can it help a couple re establish trust and gain traction in healing together?

Yeah, that's a. A challenging situation. We certainly don't recommend that in every situation there should always be separation. I've heard of a few ministries that that's the go to. And I think in some situations, having the person out of the home or away from me is more triggering. It creates more fear, more anxiety, more worry, more what are they doing, what's going on? So I don't think there should ever just be a given like, okay, we need to separate. But in certain situations there are needs. And what comes to mind for me is if being around the person is going back to our last question, if it's always a trigger that you feel angry and regret and hurt and a desire to lash out, like, you need some healthy space to let your brain and your mind calm down to the point that you can re engage in healthy conversation in appropriate discussion of what steps need to be taken. It makes me think of an illustration of, like, I have a deep fear of lions. Let's say, you know, we've. We've learned in therapy a lot of cat issues. Yeah, I do. I do. Actually, that's another podcast that we've learned that in therapy to just force me to be around lions is not going to be helpful because it's just re entering me into the trauma and fear that it would actually be better to get healthier first and then find out, well, what are the parameters when that lion is behind a cage? And I can feel safe to be around a lion. So if your spouse just feels like it does nothing but induce fear, worry, you need some healthy space. And we really would recommend, if you're at that place, that it's done in cooperation with a counselor, with someone who's skilled in this area to talk through. What are we looking to build on? How do we create healthy structure so that it's not just out of sight, out of mind, and that it's not just done as a punitive thing like, you made me mad, so go away. Now, there may be part of your recovery action plan that they do need to go for a few days as part of that, but this is a. We're talking something different than just your recovery action plan. This is more of a long term, three to six months or even longer to reestablish some mental health so that the couple can re engage. And I would always recommend that be done again, that be done with a counselor. And then in those cases there can be some forward momentum. And another option too is even what we would call an in home separation where the couple have created. We're going to be in separate bedrooms, our schedules are going to alternate, we may see each other and interact a little bit, but by and large we're giving each other that space to move towards long term reconciliation.

Yeah, I think if a couple with the help of a professional as we've recommended, decide that a therapeutic separation makes sense, I think one of the benefits it does is it can break us out of routines or ruts or patterns that we're in as a couple that like, you know, the way maybe you're upset and the way that your spouse walks in and just kind of throws their stuff everywhere and you get, you know, irritated or upset or triggered or whatever, that can just kickstart all the same stuff over again. And so it definitely can get you out of the day to day normal that you're used to, which can bring clarity around what you're feeling, you know, how you're processing. And you know, I know too, just from listening to friends who've been through situations like this, like there can be some love and admiration that you feel toward your spouse. Like, oh, I didn't realize they did this one thing at our house, or I didn't realize how much I did need them. And so there can be health that happens. But again, it's not something that we recommend all the time or to do just on a whim. For sure.

Yeah. I mean, I would say the scenarios where it may be needed and necessary and helpful are if your spouse is continuing to engage in unhealthy behaviors. And so, you know, we have, we've worked with people who maybe their spouse is involved in something illegal or, or something involving children or minors. That may be a situation where if you have kids in the house, it would be safer if your spouse also has, you know, comorbidity and is, is violent and they're, you know, have other things that are creating lack of safety in the home. That your, your first goal is to be safe physically and emotionally and spiritually. And there's varying levels of that. And that's why it's hard to just give one answer that applies to all, because it doesn't. And so in Betrayal and Beyond, we do like A safety inventory, abuse inventory, and. And just identifying. Are you safe in all of these areas? Okay, now let's move on. Are there areas where we need to get you safe first? Because those are really real situations that, that women are unsafe and, Or. Or men. I know that that's very underreported, but on a smaller level, I know for me, if. If John relapses, I have a tendency to really be a dead horse surprise. And so it's actually healthier for me if I step out of the house. Just like you were saying, Trevor. If I remove myself from the house for one or two days, I think so much clearer and, and in a positive way of, okay, this is what's going on. These are the things I can do and implement. I'm not just stuck in this whirlwind of feelings that's creating more energy and. And chaos in our home. So from all the way from that level where you maybe just need a break or, you know, a day or two, or like Nick said, separated in the house to the other end, where maybe it's very, very necessary that you've established safety through separation.

Yeah. Okay, last question. Another pivot. Definitely a good one. I know we hear this one a lot. How do I tell my spouse that I do not enjoy our sex life? And where do I start that conversation?

Dun, dun, dun. I always start by using Diane's story where she talks about the first five years of their marriage not being what she wanted it to be and just asking herself the question, do I want the rest of our marriage to look like this in our sex life, or do I want to have a moment where it may be hard or feel awkward, but then it can change the. It can change the outcome for the rest of our life. So I really, really liked hearing that because it does make you think just being bold and talking about it is going to benefit you in the long run. And one thing that Heather and I will ask. And this, you know, happened with my conversation the other day with my person that is not attracted to their spouse anymore. I'm like, well, are you having orgasm? And so if, you know, it's really important that we do have a healthy sex life and that we work toward that. And I know it's. There's different situations. I'm not. This is not a blanket like everybody's. You know, I know there's extenuating circumstances in some areas, but generally we want to work toward a healthy sex life with our spouse. And if we're not having that, even if there's nothing going on like betrayal or trauma or anything like that, but we're just, like, not enjoying our sex life. Don't leave it there, because that will deteriorate your marriage in all aspects, in my opinion. And so one way that we can start talking about it would be, you know, sometimes it feels safer to join a group. Like, if you were in Unraveled or Betrayal and beyond or Seven Pillars or Hope for Men are one of the groups where you can at least learn how to start saying these words that you probably never said to anybody out loud or maybe were taboo growing up. And just learning that the conversation is just a normal part of humanity and things we can talk about. And then I say use these podcasts and events as excuses. Like, I was listening to a podcast today and I heard this, or I read this book or I went to this event and this is what I learned. And I realized, you know, I do have some things to talk about. And, you know, and, and to. To encourage, like, openness and playfulness, you know, that we don't just arrive in marriage knowing what to do, even though that's the expectation that we're supposed to be like, sex ready on the day of our marriage. But just saying, can we kind of start over and start using this opportunity of marriage to explore and figure out what we both like? And I apologize that I came in and maybe pretended that I was enjoying it more because I was worried about hurting your feelings, but just that brutal honesty is going to be worth it. And then bringing in a lightheartedness and a playfulness of, how can we practice and have fun and figure out more about each other.

What comes to mind for me is going back to a podcast we did not that long ago on the myth of sexual frequency. And I brought up in that episode how typically in a marriage, one partner would like more frequency and one would like less frequency. One is higher drive, one's lower drive, that being perfectly matched is rare. And if you are the less frequency, less drive partner, I think I would encourage you. This is gonna be a really helpful conversation to your spouse, something they want to hear. Because if you came and said something like, you know, I know you're interested in us having sex more, and if it was done in this way or these things, it would be more enjoyable to me. And there's a likelihood we might have it more like, keep in mind, they want to hear that they would like to do things that make it more enjoyable for you so that you're more interested because they have a higher desire Or a desire for more frequency. And even if you're equally matched, I think that awareness of this can be a very positive conversation of. If we worked on these things, I think it would be more enjoyable to me, and I'd be more interested. I'd be more open. Who doesn't want to hear that? Well, great. Let's work on something. Now, on the flip side, if we're the higher drive, higher frequency partner, it's a conversation we have to be very, very careful with because I think it can come across as telling a person how to change what you need from them. And it can kind of feed into, well, it's all about you anyway. And now you're telling me you need me to dress differently or act differently. And, like, it could really be pushing them away. And so I think there needs to be just a real humility to it, a real openness. The questions have helped me understand what could we do that would make it more mutually satisfying? Or, you know, that just that honesty, like Ashley was saying, the brutal honesty of, yeah, I know I have a desire for frequent sex, but it doesn't just mean, you know, that I want you laying there doing nothing. It's not about me. So I think just communicating how we're thinking and feeling. But if we're that higher drive, higher frequency partner, just that encouragement, be very careful because it can come across as just more of what you need, what you want. And most spouses aren't gonna react real positively to that.

Yeah. And springing it on somebody is never helpful. Like, so, hey, I wanna talk about our sex life real quick. So. And then you just jump in. Like, I think that again, depending on where your marriage is and the comfortability of talking about it, I think that it's important to say, hey, I've been thinking about our sex life and where it's at, and I'm wondering if you'd be okay. Sometime in the next couple weeks, we schedule something where we can sit down and talk about it. Or, you know, like, I've been thinking about, you know, kind of to what Ashley was talking about. And on that episode, that Mythbusters episode, Rodney and Tracy talked about Cliff and Joyce Penner. They have resources that can help with that. And so having a conversation around. I would like us to talk about this more. How would you feel if we read a book together? Or how would you feel if we went through this video course or something like that? So I think that just being. I don't know, it's so. It's one of those Things where, like, the more tactful you can be, the better it's going to serve you in the long run because you jump, you know, if you just jump down someone's throat and make all these, you know, suggestions and changes. I don't know about you, both of you, but I've never responded well in those moments. And so I think that just being thoughtful about how we do it and putting it on the calendar and being intentional about it can help.

Yeah, I think I told you guys that I bought John the Good Guys Guide to Great Sex Book. And he's like, why did you buy me this? I'm like, hey, I read the female one. I was like, I need it for information. I need to know what you think about it so I can recommend it to the people. But sometimes I'll walk into the room and see him reading that, and I'm like, so not in the mood. I'm like, oh, I got some dishes to do. But I think just keeping, like, that playfulness, you know, is. Is really important. And the books do help, because when John's reading a book, if he gets to a certain line, he'll say, let me read this to you. What do you think about this? Is this really what you think? And so it just gives you resources to know where to even take the conversation. So just, you know, and there's bad resources out there, too. So. Yeah, use the ones that are on our page or that we talk about.

Totally. And I would say something that comes to mind, too. For me, we're in a season where our kids are young, and so, like, I am the one who has the higher drive, but that's also. My wife is home with my kids all day, and she's also working her photography business and all these things. And it's easy for me to not remember the season that we're in. And I think that that's an encouragement, too, is like, this may just be a season of your marriage and to not get wrapped up in is it amazing or is it not? And that's like the make or break. It's like, from what I've heard from people who've been married for 30, 40, 50 years, it's like, yeah, that was a hard 10 years. And it's like, oh, yeah, you know, you can say that. Like, that was a hard decade or not a great season of relationship where things were different. So just understand that there's always chances that the season may be impacting it. But then also, that doesn't mean that you can't have a new season in the future. Okay, so we love these FAQ episodes because it gives us so much variety to talk about. Even inside of one topic being marriage, we're able to talk about a lot of different aspects and listeners we really want you to send in questions. And so if you have questions for more FAQ episodes or like themes for FAQ episodes, you can just send those to podcasturedesire.org or you could DM us on any social media platform and make some suggestions. I get those and I see them and I know a lot of the questions that we get have ended up on podcasts. So appreciate you guys doing that. Ashley, thanks for being here with us and talking about marriages and tackling these frequently asked questions.

Yep.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.