295 - How Counseling Helps Marriages

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy day to you, listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 295 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

Show me the money.

Jerry Maguire.

Jerry Maguire. Show me the money. Show me the money, Jerry.

Real talk. Would you recommend that movie to somebody?

I mean, it's been 25, 20 some years since I watched it, so I don't know, it's not on the top of my list.

It just feels like it is a good movie and a very quotable movie that was enjoyable. But it's one of those movies where it's like, do I want to tell someone to watch this movie or not? Like, you complete me. That's right. Show me the money. Cute, man. Keep it.

Good.

Was all over the place.

So good. Okay, so let's get back. Sorry, I got lost in Jerry Maguire. Tom Cruise, he's amazing. Okay, so today we had Bill and Eileen Fagan, who are two of our clinicians, married couple, they do their counseling work together for us. And we had them on really to just talk about this, how counseling helps marriages.

Yes. In the movie Jerry Maguire, Tom Cruise plays a sports agent who has this revolutionary idea for his agency that immediately gets him fired from his job. And he's trying to do damage control and keep at least a couple of clients. So he has business. And this athlete is wanting to know how committed he is. So he's like telling Jerry over the phone, I want you to shout it, show me the money. And it gets to that point where he's yelling it. And what the athlete played by Cuba Gooding Jr. Right. What he's looking for is like, are you all in? Are you committed to my success in these negotiations? Because if you are, you're still my agent. And it made me think about that in terms of today's podcast, when we're talking about couples going to marriage counseling together, and particularly what Pure Desire offers with a very significant one year process that can be very time consuming and carries expense and it's really an all in kind of experience. But I think sometimes our spouse is looking to us asking that question of, are you willing to be all in on this marriage? Because even if there's been addiction or a lot of pain or betrayal, if a spouse sees you're all in on making this work, I think there's hope. And that's a lot of what we talk about today. Is how can marriage counseling benefit a couple who maybe is at some of that extreme place of is this going to make it or not? Or the couple that has just realized they need some outside help, some extra help, we kind of COVID that whole spectrum. So, yeah, I really appreciated what Bill and Eileen had to share, especially as two people that have sat on the front lines working with couples for a lot of years and from their personal experience can say this has been worth it, and here's why. And so I think people really, really get a lot out of the episode.

And I don't know if everyone knows this, depending on how new you are to the show, that we do offer pure desire counseling. I mean, as, as mentioned, Bill and Eileen are clinicians, but we have a 12 month process and program that we walk people through. And this feels like just the right time to mention it and talk maybe a little detail so people have an understanding of what we offer and how beneficial it can be for a couple.

Yeah, what we really like to think of is that we have taken what someone might experience in a, you know, a two week intensive or 30 days at some retreat center, and we've taken many of those principles and broken it out over a year so that you are, in your context, in your marriage, working on these principles. And it's a very specific pathway. Now, it may be altered some based on a couple starting point or what they need up front. But because we have seen a track record of marriages successfully being recovered, we say this is, this is a pattern we're walking in. So it's not just kind of a haphazard, well, what do you guys need help with today? Come and tell us your problems. It's to help couples go through a journey of rebuilding the marriage, restoring trust, creating healthy pathways that's been built on and developed since Ted Roberts was doing counseling 25 years ago. So if, if you're considering it. The other thing I love about pure desire counseling is that entry point is something we call the evaluation, which is really this initial no strings attached appointment where you let someone, kind of like a car mechanic getting under the hood of your engine and being able to see everything that's happening and make a diagnosis. That's what the evaluation is about. It includes some online assessments. It gives a real thorough picture to the pure desire counselor of what's going on in your marriage. And if they think you would benefit from the year of counseling, they will tell you that. And if they don't think it would help you, they'll tell you that too. And so it's kind of this great, hey, what have we got to lose? Let's do the evaluation. Let's see what they think we need. And if they recommend the one year counseling program, then it's based on some real data and not just, well, it seems like this would be helpful. And so I would encourage everyone take that step of an evaluation. And if you find out you don't need it, well, great. Praise God that you're. You're in a place that wouldn't benefit you. But if they say, we think you would really benefit from this, then you know you've got the information you need to move forward.

Absolutely. So if you're interested in more information or starting the counseling process with us here at PureDesire, just go to PureDesire.org counseling All right, a couple things before we get into our conversation. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can also find the full video episode of this on YouTube. You can follow us on social media as well. Earedesirepdmi and with that, here is our time with Bill and Eileen Fagan on how counseling helps marriages. Bill and Eileen Fagan, it's been a while since we've had you guys on. We're excited to have you back. Thanks for being with us.

Hey, we're glad to be here.

Thanks for having us.

It's funny because pre show, it was like, hey, you're not loud enough. And then the intro, we were really, really loud. Okay.

Good to know where there's lots of energy.

Okay. So as clinicians on staff at Pure Desire, you walk couples through the counseling process. But for many, there can be this fog around the idea of is counseling really helpful? Man, there are camps where it's like, is counseling even biblical or allowed? And so for us, we want to unpack how counseling, specifically pure desire counseling helps marriages. We're still, you know, in our episodes in February. And so we want to keep this in mind that we're focusing on relationships, especially for couples who have unwanted sexual behavior and have been impacted by betrayal trauma. So as clinicians, we are positioning you. I mean, you guys are the experts in this. And so we want to use your experience and expertise. And let's just start with the first question, which is, why do you feel that counseling is essential for some married couples?

Yeah, really good question. As I think about that, there's a couple of things that come up for me. First of all, there's been a wound. There's been something that's happened that's really hurtful either in a moment exposed, or over a period of time. And that's leading them to come to us or think about coming to us. So when you think about wounds and conflict, people we talk to don't have much training in how to deal with those kinds of things. Family of origin typically doesn't prepare people to deal with conflict and these kinds of upsets. And so there's, there's a real need there for someone. And if you think about it, you need someone who knows what they're doing. If you fell and broke your arm or your leg or had a gash that was bleeding, you wouldn't sit down and think, oh, hey, I'll take care of that. You would go to some experts who have some professional experience in helping with that. And it's the same kind of thing here. People are looking for someone, as you said, forever to walk through this with them, to help them in this process. And that's what we do. You've got an addicted spouse who, like Paul, is saying, I do the things I don't want to do and doesn't really know why in many cases. And you have the betrayed spouse saying, this isn't what I signed up for. This is very different. And when our worlds are turned topsy turvy, oftentimes, most times people don't know what to do.

Yeah, yeah. And to speak to what Bill said about the wound, the Gottman Institute, who has done 40 plus years of marriage research, they say that couples on average come to counseling six years too late. Wow. And so when you think about that, they might not be seeing that, the wound, seeing the wound after six years, that, that could have been the start of what the Gottmans call negative sentiment override, which is built over time where couples just kind of stop having that fondness and admiration for each other and upset starts to set in. So that's why counseling helps us, because we can help them to go back and, and look at what might have been the catalyst, what might have been the root of the issue.

For those who have seen our introductory series, Sexual Integrity 101, on there, one of the interviews, the testimonies, a man says, well, I tried everything to stop. Well, he said, actually I tried everything on my own and it wasn't working. And I think that's the reality, especially when it comes to areas of our sexuality and these long standing patterns. Most of the issues that we're dealing with, a pure desire, aren't something that just happened last night for the first time. It's like a pattern of years, of decades, sometimes of unhealthy behaviors, sinful choices. And a person could honestly say, I've tried everything I know to do. And a couple may feel that way. And that's where you can get the expertise of someone who's been trained in this area. And I remember in my own story having a mentor say, you know, Nick, don't you owe it to yourself to go to someone who's an expert and let them analyze what you need? Because you've tried everything on your own. And I had, he'd asked me the question, you know, how many times have you tried to stop? And I was like, well, every time, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of times. We're going to be the last time. And it never was. And so his point to me was you need outside expertise because you've exhausted your storehouse of resources of how to try to handle this, and it's not working. And so I, I think in particular, if a couple is feeling that way, like we've tried what we know how to do and that's where then expertise can come in. And then the other, I think, side of it is what Bill and Eileen are bringing up. There are some situations that are just so overwhelming, so beyond our mental capability to know what to do. It's like we need to get some emergency care now because we're just not capable of handling what's going on. And so whether it's a long standing pattern that's not changing or just the intensity of, of what's going on, I think that's when it really becomes essential that couples get counseling.

Another thing too with that is that couples, and I know even in my own marriage, it's easy to get into the pattern where we don't make time to talk about things and hash out what's going on in our relationship. And so when you're in counseling, and specifically when you're paying for professional counseling, there's more of an incentive to like, well, we better make it worth our time. Like, this is what we're here for. We're here to unpack this stuff. So I think in some ways it creates an opportunity and gives more incentive to like, let's leverage the time and the money that we're spending on this because we're, I mean, you didn't come to counseling because things are going great. You know, you came to counseling because there are some things you want resolved. So it just creates that opportunity.

Yeah, right. That's a great point. We talk a lot about, we use the term slow fade. And if you think about that six year period, it is a slow fade. Like the frog in the boiling water, they don't realize that they're boiling and it's the same thing. And I think there's a lot of fear too. When people first think about going to counseling. There's this idea of what lots of what ifs, what if I'm exposed? What if I find out that this marriage isn't going to survive? What if. And fear will hold a lot of people back when it's actually the opposite is true. When you start to talk about this stuff, it's therapeutic and it's helpful and it can often help you see things that you couldn't see before.

Yeah.

So we're kind of talking a lot about the need for counseling. And obviously as a ministry that has 17 counselors on staff, we believe in it. But let's kind of look at the flip side too. Is marriage counseling, like the very in depth process that pure desire offers isn't necessary for every couple? And why, when would someone consider, okay, this is necessary for me?

Yeah, well, I think the word necessary is really important in that question. And as you suggested, Nick, people who have tried lots of things and haven't had any success often are in that group that it becomes necessary for people who can't think of or come up with another plan. People who are somewhat desperate and don't know what to do. People who want to save their marriages but don't know how to do that. I think it's really necessary for a certain group of people who have gotten to that point where their lives have been tremendously impacted. Jobs, security, relationships, and things are kind of falling apart and they're really in need of some professional help.

Yeah, that's when counseling becomes kind of a life raft. Gives them something to hold on to. And, you know, our job first on is to give people hope. Because when a lot of people come to us, there's little to no hope. So when we can tell them, hey, there is hope and we'll walk through this together, you're not alone. We're walking the path with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's not necessarily a need for every couple, but I think every couple would benefit from it. You know, even in my own individual therapy, you know, my, my therapist's definition of counseling or therapy is just he's helping me put language to my experience. And I think that we all can benefit from that. That, you know, especially in this context with pure desire counseling, we're looking at why you do what you do and why you can't stop. And that is incredibly powerful when trying to recover from unwanted sexual behavior or an addiction. And then also for a betrayed partner who's felt like I'm crazy and I can't make sense of this, to actually put language that starts to bring clarity and understanding of the situation and to help that spouse, that partner, get a voice who wouldn't benefit from that situation, especially in this. So is it a necessity? I don't think so. But I would always encourage someone, if they're thinking about it, they should pursue it.

Yeah, I was thinking of the illustration that it's a bit like having a personal trainer, that if I go to the gym and there's others that I work out, that's kind of like having your group. And if I've got momentum, you know, I'm making gains in whether I'm weightlifting or losing weight, whatever my focus is, and I'm able to do it, I'm successful, then I probably don't need a personal trainer. But if the idea of going to the gym at all terrifies me, I don't know what to lift, where to start. I'm afraid I'm gonna hurt myself. Well, I'm gonna need a personal trainer. And I think some people are in that boat when it comes to redeeming their marriage and dealing with these issues of sexual brokenness. They don't even know where to start, where to begin. Like, that's what counseling is for. But on the flip side, even if I go to the gym regularly and I make gains and I kind of know where I'm headed, I would still benefit from another person who has expertise in this area looking over my shoulder and saying, hey, here's something we could add to your routine. Here's something that would benefit you more. Here's a way that you're doing this lift that you might hurt yourself. Let's do it this way. And making those adjustments. So I totally echo that. I think every couple would benefit from it. There's always value in that outside input. But for how many is it necessary? You know, I've heard Dr. Ted Roberts say a lot of times that he estimates 30% of men or women in group will need outside counseling in order to make it through the process because of the level of division in the marriage, the intensity, and, you know, the length of the struggle or addiction. That there are some presenting factors like that. And we do have on our website, we have a kind of a document that I think we call it when to Refer or referral criteria that's meant for group leaders to kind of read through a number of metrics to answer the question, should I be referring this group member to counseling? And it's one of those lists that maybe not any one thing means, okay, go to counseling. But if you're going through a list with someone and several of the boxes are being checked, it's like, okay, you're really showing there's enough of an issue here that you would really benefit from counseling. And so if you have that question, use that free tool, read through it, whether for yourself or a group member. And I think that could be tremendously clarifying.

Yeah, I agree. I, you know, to play off your analogy, Nick, I was thinking of, you know, in the gym, people have spotters, right? When they're, when they're not that I'm like a professional gym goer, it sounds like it.

So. Yeah, continue.

Right. But, but sometimes, especially for a betrayed spouse, I can be that spotter. If I see her eyes glazing over, for example, um, and she's just stuck, you know, having that limbic dissociative reaction. Sometimes I can offer to be her voice and be that spotter for her and say what she's wanting to say, but feel stuck. And you know, we always ask permission to do that with couples, but it's really impactful and it's really helpful. So just being that spotter too is really helpful.

I really like the imagery of Bill and Eileen at the gym with Eileen spotting Bill for some, some bench pressing.

That's right, £400. I got this.

That's right.

Yeah, we'll put that up on Instagram this week sometime.

Let's do that.

Yeah.

Okay. So in many marriages, I'm tempted to say in all marriages, it's easier to see what our spouse or partner like, what they're struggling with, than what they would need counseling for. But when a couple realizes they do and express interest in wanting counseling, why is it so necessary that we counsel a couple together? Like what makes that unique or dynamic or beneficial for the couple?

Yeah, yeah. We always talk about the dynamic of a two headed counselor and how helpful it is. When Bill and I started out, we went and we worked with couples. We discovered that it was really more effective when we worked with couples together. And insurance didn't like it.

Right.

Because insurance doesn't pay for a two headed counselor. But for us it was really, we found it really helpful because first of all, it avoids triangulation where the struggling spouse or betrayed spouse would kind of try to get the counselor on their side. And there's no sides here. You know, we're for the marriage and for the union. And so for that reason, that's one of the reasons that it's really helpful to have two counselors there.

I think, too, there's so much that's unseen and that's part of what's going on in this environment, that on both sides, the betrayed spouse has no clue about why the partner is doing what they're doing and continues to do it and continues to hurt them. And the betrayer has a difficult time understanding self and oftentimes doesn't understand where his or her spouse is coming from. Yeah, and so you've got these dynamics. You also have all of these things coming from family of origin. And if you think about 18, 20 years spending in a family, and each of them has come from a different perspective and learn different things about how life goes, and then they come together and it's like, what is this? And no one really taught them on how to unite and how to come together as a couple. And so I think this is really helpful for each of them.

It makes me think of. I don't know if you remember this, Nick, but Mike Maxwell, I don't know if he said it on the show, but he used the example of, like, married couples are both taught to play the same board game, but they're taught two sets of rules, two totally different sets of rules. And then when they get into their marriage and they start playing the game, it's like, oh, no, that's not how you play. That's not how you play. But I like that that we have this script or framework that we both bring into our marriage.

Something else that my wife and I found so valuable as we did the couples counseling and had both, you know, often Ted and Diane Roberts in the room, or Harry and Debbie Flanagan, you know, having a couple that you worked with, I think the way that both spouses feel like they have an advocate in the room is very, very important, because I've heard a lot of people that go to counseling like, well, she's just on her side, or he's just on his side or he's on her side. You know, if you have one counselor, one spouse or the other will tend to feel like they're on my side or their side. And more often than not, it will be along the gender lines of, well, of course she's a woman. She's going to take your side. But if you've got a male, female clinical team working with you, then both couples, I think, can get over that suspicion of they're just out to get me, or I'm the bad guy. It's like, oh, no, look, the guy in the room, he gets me, and he's with me, he's for me, he's trying to help me, and vice versa. The wife feels like she gets me. She's for me. She understands what I'm going through. And I think the way that just can create a much higher level of trust. And that's one of the things that's been found in research, that one of the highest predictors of successful counseling engagement is the level of trust or collaboration between counselor to counselee. That sense of, they get me, I trust them, they understand what's going on. And so I just think when both spouses have someone that they feel gets them, it creates that connection, and success is a lot more possible. So Bill and Eileen, in a lot of situations, people are more accustomed to, you know, if they get counseling, she goes to her counselor, he goes to his counselor, and they try to then go home and meet in the middle. But we really recommend that couples walk through a process together. And as long as they're able. Now, different situations, this is different. But as long as they're able to have both husband and wife in the room together, why do we recommend that? Why is that powerful? As opposed to just, I go see my counselor, you go see yours, and then we try to meet in the middle.

What I love about the way we do it in Pure Desire is we do both. We get to spend time with them as a couple, and then we also do breakout sessions where we meet individually, and that kind of strengthens that alliance, too. And it helps, especially if there's some limbic reactivity. Right. Somebody's starting to get angry, starting to get fearful, starting to kind of numb out, we can take that break, and then we can come back together and make a repair. So having that is really, really helpful because they get both parts of it.

I think, too, the empathy and understanding process that can take place when they're both in the room with us together, because both of them can start to unpack what's going on for the other person.

Yeah.

And oftentimes when they first come to us, that's not really what's going on. Like in a boxing match, they're in separate corners, but over time, we can bring them together, and when they. They can experience that sense of empathy for their partner.

Yeah.

On both sides, it's one of the most powerful experiences that we get to partake in in this process.

Right. And what I usually. I love this about my husband is we kind of do this crossover thing where he'll start to empathize with the betrayed spouse, and he'll say, well, wait a minute, that's not what she's saying. And then I can do the same thing, just talking to the struggling spouse. So we can kind of. And it has to do with co regulation, too, where they can see how we're interacting and our level of calmness, and then they can kind of feed off of that. So that's another benefit.

Yeah. It's interesting. I would imagine there is power in crossing that gender line in the sense of there's a female clinician that's empathizing or coming alongside and shepherding the addict who is a man, even that can be restorative in so many ways. That's super cool that you guys do that. I think another aspect of doing the male and female clinicians and meeting together as a couple is that it gives shared language, you know, and we have that in our resources, too, where if, you know, a man is going through seven pillars and a woman is going through betrayal, and beyond that, there is language that they're starting to become familiar with. And so when they have conversations back and forth, there's language that they can. It's a foundation that they can build upon. And I think the counseling setting, it absolutely reinforces that, if not amplifies it, you know, 10 times in the sense that. Oh, yeah, remember when we were counseling last week and we had this conversation? There's just. There's a shared recollection of that. I know that's one of the most difficult things. I'll have a great session with my therapist or my wife or my friend will ask how it go, how it went, and I'll just be like, it was good, you know, and it's, like, hard to remember it was really good, but I can't really remember why. But I feel amazing, you know, where that can be something they experience together and have that shared language.

What you're describing is it's kind of like a junior high game of telephone, you know, did you play that in junior high youth group of like, you know, the starting phrase is, the man went to the store to buy milk, and 20 kids have to whisper it in the ear of the next kid. And by the end, it's Superman jumped over the Empire State Building. You're like, what? On how did we get there? And there's no correlation. Right. But Honestly, when couples are in trauma and if you go to a counselor alone, you may say, well, my counselor said, I didn't have to do that. And the other spouse is like, what? That doesn't sound right. But you weren't in the room. You didn't hear. It's like, well, maybe they did. And. And then that creates doubt or suspicion for that spouse. Like, man, I think your counselor might be crazy. Or, I don't. How could they say that? And the truth is, if you're in the fog of minimization and rationalization of your behaviors for a long time, you don't always hear things through the right lens. And so if your spouse is in the room hearing it, too, you both heard it together, it's like, well, that's not what I heard. Well, I think this is what we're being told. And on the flip side, if you're in some of the fog of betrayal and hurt and woundedness, you may not hear everything correctly. And so if you're only hearing things separately and then trying to come back and pair it back to your spouse, what you've heard or learned, it may be very inaccurate and might create suspicion for the spouse about who you're meeting with. So if possible, when couples meet together, it just creates that shared experience, like you said, Trevor, shared language and hopefully getting on the same page sooner. The other thing, I was thinking along these lines in my work as a pastor, you know, I've worked with a number of couples that were headed towards divorce or on the brink of divorce. And what I found was fascinating every single time is they were describing different marriages. It sounded like, to me, like they would talk about their spouse, and what they're doing is like, wow, that's terrible. And they would describe their own behaviors like, man, yeah, you're doing the right thing. Keep it up. Then I'd talk to the other spouse, and I'd hear their stories like, man, they are terrible. And, yeah, you're doing the right thing. But you'd walk away going, this can't be the same marriage. These can't be the same people. Because if you're only getting that one perspective, it's very skewed. It's very unique to that person. So as much as possible, when we're able to come together, share that experience together, and let people speak into what we're experiencing collectively so that we're all describing the same marriage, that really becomes powerful towards moving into healing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, you brought up a good point, Nick. And we'll use this technique with couples a lot, where the betrayed spouse will say something, and then we'll ask the struggling spouse, what did you hear her say just now? And often it's not even the same thing that she was trying to say.

No, let's go back. Let's try it again.

Right, right, right.

Yeah. And we can help them put language to lots of things that they struggle to put language to in their relationship and in what's going on for them. Because a lot of this is very, very new territory for people.

Yeah.

Well, it's kind of like what you've said, Trevor, about when you were a youth pastor that, you know, parents are trying to teach their kids something. They come to youth group and you do a five minute Bible study, and the kids go home like, oh, this was amazing, what I'm gonna do. And the parents like, what? I've been telling you that for 10 years. And you're not listening that just like that. In marriages, sometimes hearing it from another per. Like our spouse. And I remember this when Michelle and I did counseling, like, she had just said something. But when Diane would rephrase and say, nick, did you hear your wife say this? It was like, oh, I get. Like, I hadn't, I hadn't. So just what you were saying, Eileen, like, I hadn't heard it that way. But as I'm hearing it from another voice without me reading into the tone and what do you mean? And all of our issues, it's like, oh, I'm hearing that now, really, for the first time.

Yeah. Okay. So another situation that we run into, I know specifically a pure desire, but this is also something that's not specific to us, that let's say one of the partners or spouses, they're ready to jump into counseling and the other one is not. Do we recommend that spouse who's ready for counseling jumps into counseling on their own, or do they need to wait for their spouse to get on board?

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, we have so many areas that we can help with that oftentimes, you know, we've got a spouse support program for just the betrayed spouse. And this has happened more often than not when she starts and the struggling spouse sees the changes, then he's willing. So I always believe that if somebody is ready for counseling, even if their spouse isn't, then they should go. Going back to the gym analogy, because I'm such a professional there, if I wanted to get in shape and Bill didn't, it would be kind of silly of me to not go to the gym because he's not on board. And then when he sees me getting all healthy and buffed like I am, then he's going to go, wow, maybe I should do that.

Right?

You know, and we could even speak to that. This week, we decided to kind of do a juice fast and be healthier. This week. Well, it was way easier for us to do it together. At least it was easier for me because I had somebody doing it, too, and I didn't feel like I was suffering. So it's great if people can come together. But on the other hand, the pursuit of health is important, no matter which direction it goes. And if you're ready to pursue health and healing and your spouse isn't, then we encourage people to go for that.

Yeah, we've said it a lot on the podcast that your health is the best gift you bring to your marriage. And so if you recognize there's anything in you that isn't very healthy and you want to work on it, you're going to be bringing something still to help your marriage because you're focusing on having better reactions, being more patient, more calm, understanding your triggers, or dealing with unwanted behavior. The other thing I think is important to consider here is why might someone be resistant? Are they resistant just because they don't. They don't think they need it. They think it's your issue and you should go. Then it might be an issue of some education, like what we've talked about today, helping a betrayed spouse understand what's in it for them, that this isn't just to stop my behavior. It's really to heal the wounds in our marriage, the hurt that I've caused, to help me hear you better. So if someone's resistant just because there's kind of apathy towards, I don't know what will do for me. Some more information might help. If the resistance is simply stubbornness, a complete blindness to their behaviors, how it's hurting, I don't think you can wait or even to try to bring information because that'll probably just make them angrier. They need to just see, like you were saying, Eileen, the consistent model of your faithfulness to work on yourself and try to bring a better you to the marriage, to hopefully maybe thaw the ice of whatever is holding them back. So just kind of be aware of why is your spouse resistant. And if you're the one, you know, kind of ringing the bell, like, we gotta go to counseling, and it's just annoying your spouse, like, be careful with that, because I think you can actually drive them further away from what in the end would be really good for both of you.

Yeah.

And I think in this question too, it's important for someone to realize that like I'm thinking about a betrayed partner because maybe that's a situation that people find themselves in, is the betrayed partner wants to get help and the struggling spouse does not. That there are other aspects of life and domains of your life that getting help and counseling will, you'll benefit from that. Maybe you're also a parent and so. But the negative stuff that's going on in your marriage is causing reactivity towards your kids. And so you have to think about that. How am I treating people at work? Like, how is my, my energy level? Am I pursuing self care? Am I pursuing my health? Like thinking outside of even your marriage you can benefit from getting the help because guaranteed what's going on in your marriage is impacting and bleeding into all these other areas. And so even if you feel like I'm doing this and my spouse isn't in it with me and this maybe isn't directly going to benefit my marriage right now, keep in mind that it is going to benefit you, which will benefit all other areas you're involved in too.

Now you're describing the holistic model of wellness where if you divide your life into a pie chart where you've got physical health, emotional health, your passions, spiritual health, that if you start to work on one of those areas, like you said, Trevor, it has that bleed over effect into other areas, whether you intended to or not.

Totally.

Yeah.

We always Recommend people. Um, 3 seems to be the magic number. And, and we've done that with people where, where one spouse is resistant, we say, you know what, give it three sessions. If you're not feeling it, if, if it's not right for you, if this isn't a good fit, then we'll try something else. But some, and we've had so many examples of couples who've come to us and, and the spouse will tell us later, you know, I didn't like you guys or we, we totally weren't into this.

Well, we didn't like you either, bud. So that'.

But what I was thinking of, there's the reluctant spouse, you know, the one who kind of came kicking and screaming and I don't want to do this. And then they get into it and then they find out there's real benefit and things are changing and moving and that's part of this as well.

Yeah, I love that idea of like, just give it a try. And that might be a conversation a spouse could have is to say, what have we got to lose? I mean, if. If this could help make our marriage better, wouldn't we be glad we did it? And if you go with me two, three, four sessions and it's still. You feel exactly the same way, well, then let's talk then about it not being worth it for you. But what have we got to lose? I mean, other than our marriage? Right. And if your hope and goal is to redeem and strengthen your marriage, then hopefully the other spouse is at least open to say, well, I'll give it a shot. And knowing that they have kind of an exit ramp could be valuable. So, Bill and Eileen, you guys have done marriage counseling for a lot of years. Would you talk a little bit about how you have personally seen counseling impact and save marriages? I mean, you've had a front row seat for this for a while.

Yeah.

So what have you personally seen? And if you can maybe even share a story or two with, obviously without details and names, but share a story or two, that comes to mind of how counseling was instrumental in saving a marriage.

Yeah, we've. We've been really blessed to experience this with. With many couples before Pure Desire, and certainly in the years we've been working with Pure Desire, there are these lights that go on. There are these understandings, these. The empathy that I spoke about earlier. And so they begin to heal. They begin to heal individually, and then they begin to heal as a couple. Because we have the materials to deal with addiction as well as the connected materials that we use to help couples see what works in successful marriages, teach tools that. That couples probably didn't learn growing up, didn't learn as adults, didn't learn anywhere. And so this is a whole new world for them. And when they both are open to these changes in these experiences, we've seen miraculous things happen in relationship. Kind of the first story that comes to mind is a couple that, that we. Boy, you know, sometimes there's just not a big sense of hope. Eileen talked about providing hope, but there are those times where we're just saying, God, we don't know, we don't see it, we're not sure. And this went on for a good period of time until the process of disclosure occurred. And the process, disclosure wasn't easy to get to either. But the next session after disclosure, we saw. We saw on the screen in front of us the visible changes that had occurred between the time we'd seen them and the next time. And we both teared up as we just began to see them, because we knew something profound had happened and continues to happen in their lives.

And it was really cool because they used to. They would meet initially in separate rooms. They were never together like we are. And. And the awareness that just happened over that time, even leading up to disclosure, you know, that, oh, our. My family of origin was fine. And then starting to realize maybe it wasn't so fine. And. And just having that. That, like, we talked about that Ally that, you know, we're not pushing anybody, but we're just kind of reflecting back what they're saying and. And then to all of a sudden see them after disclosure in the same room and smiling. We just lost. Was just amazing. A lot of stories like that.

Yeah.

And I think it's good, too. And that's one of the main reasons why we do Stories of Healing episodes on the podcast, is to just remind people that it is very, very possible. I mean, I remember our clinical director, Tyler, saying that the percentage of couples that get into this, like, well, he said a couple things. One, the percentage of couples that get into pure desire counseling, it's up in the 90 percentage of them restoring their marriage. But then also it's the couples who commit to being truthful and going through a disclosure process are the ones that make it, the ones that are never fully honest and don't commit to that. And so it's so cool to hear even, you know, from you guys. And I'm sure you could share hundreds of stories about how restoration has happened, but, you know, I just think it's important to remind even someone who's listening right now, like, there is hope for your marriage, regardless of how messy it is right now. There is hope. And it's like the proof's in the pudding. There are so many. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of couples, maybe thousands, who've gone through pure desire counseling and have come out with a marriage so much better than they ever thought.

And you're right about that 91%. If they continue, finish the program through. So I would want to encourage couples, if you're at the beginning or in the middle and you're not seeing it yet, stick it out. You'll find hope and you'll find help.

I know for Michelle and I, that was our experience, not really knowing what to do. And I'd never been to a counselor, honestly, like I had never been to a counselor of any kind. And then we're going there for my addiction to pornography. I was like, well, this is going to be fun, and didn't really want to do it. Didn't want to go. But there was a, you know, first I'd say Ted and Ian Robertson, to our whole Pure Desire clinical team. A real grace to their approach. An affirmation of, we get you. We know where you're at. We love you, we care about you. We want to see you succeed. That, and then their expertise of we understand addiction, we understand the brain, we understand what change looks like. There was so much more there than I thought possible. And it really did transform us over the course of our year journey. And that's why, I guess what I'd say to anyone who's trying to ask that question, is it worth it? Is this going to be worth it in the end? If you've never walked this process, there is a lot more here to be done that you can get help with than you realize. You don't think my perspective going in was, well, I just need a little help to stop occasionally looking at these inappropriate pictures. But I was so blind to how much more was going on in my thinking, my patterns of behavior that weren't just about the pornography. It was so much else. And unless there had been someone in the room that could help me see that, I'd have still been stuck. So that'd be my encouragement to couples that are asking that, is it worth it? Question. Because it can be a lot of time and a lot of money is to ask them, if you don't do this and a year from now, you end up divorced, wouldn't you wish that you had tried everything, that you had exhausted all resources? Because I think most of us would say, when I made my vows to my spouse, for better or worse, I truly meant it. And now if I'm in some of the worst, I'm just like, well, yeah, we're gonna divorce. And it's like, well, have you tried counseling? Well, no, it's not gonna work. Well, did you really try? Did you exhaust the resources available to try to honor your vows, to try to make it work? And if at the end, you walk this journey and they flake out and they don't stick with it, and it'll kind of. In some ways, the proof will be in the pudding. It will reveal if there's something here that could be redeemed. But if there is something that could be redeemed, and a year from now, you say, if we could have a happy, fulfilling, connected marriage, would that be worth it? And you say, absolutely, yeah. Then out of my personal experience, I would say to you, give it a try. What have you got to Lose. Because it really can be the life saving, life changing measure that you're looking for.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally agree. I think it speaks somewhat to the trepidation people feel about going to counseling. And I used the analogy earlier about going to the doctor if you had a broken bone or a wound. But everybody's been to the doctor so they know what that experience is like. Not everybody, as you said, Nick, have been to counseling and that can seem like an odd thing to do. But the encouragement that you provide is really important and a safe place for people to land. Yeah. To experience what this is, is so incredibly important.

Yeah. And I think that we, we tend to, especially the struggling spouse is so fearful of being shamed. And that's a big driver. Fear is what keeps a lot of people out of it. But what we try to help them to see is that that's the symptom, you know? You know that that's the symptom of the problem. That the problem is the wound. And you're covering up the wound with this acting out, this behavior, procrastination, whatever it is, it's covering the wound. So let's go and heal the wound. We're not going to shame you. We're not going to slap your hand and tell you to stop it. We're going to empathize with you and figure out what was the wound, what hurt you, that you felt that this was the best pseudo solution.

I think too. And I don't know where people pick it up exactly. It can be the family of origin, church culture, just the culture at large. But the idea that if I ask for help, I'm not strong, when in reality the strong people are the ones who ask for help anyway. Like, even though they're afraid, even though, you know, I was just talking to someone recently that that adage of courage is still being afraid, but choosing to do it anyway, that idea. And so I think that people need to know that it's okay to ask for help. And that's how you get healthy, because you can't do it alone. Let's just end with this and this question. We've already answered this in so many different ways, but let's just like if this is the only question someone listens to in this entire episode, like, how would we silver line this? How would we summarize it? How does counseling help marriages?

Gosh. You know, when you, before you finished your, your question, I, I was just so wanting to lead with a, with a heart cry, because this is my heart's cry. We want to help you, we want to come alongside you. That's what God has created us to do. That's the calling that God has put on our life, to come alongside people and help them. And we want to befriend you. We want to hold your arms up just like Aaron did with Moses. We want to support you. Our calling is to pay it forward and to help people. You're hurting and we want to help. And so if nothing else, it helps people. Counseling helps people to see that I'm not bad, I'm not wrong, I'm not broken, I'm wounded. And we come into it with working with people with the utmost respect and affirm them for even walking through the door, so to speak. So I think there's so many ways, it's such a broad question, how can counseling help marriages? There's so many ways. It's again that holistic model. Spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, physically.

You know, Trevor, when you asked that question, the first thing that flashed into my brain was my father and my own story. My father being an alcoholic who solved his problems or tried to through drink, through leaving. And that left a trail of destruction in my entire family and certainly was visited upon me and the work I've had to do to overcome that. And so counseling is part of this process that he wasn't able, willing to do for whatever reason and the problem didn't pass when he did. The problem can continue in my life and certainly has. But counseling for individuals and for couples can bring healing and health and incredibly new vision of what life can hold. But we can't experience that unless we get in. We can't experience the joy of swimming in the pool if we don't get in. And so we encourage people to take that step to see if it might be helpful. And as Nick said, you know, if it isn't, it isn't. And you can move forward in some other direction. But this can be and has been and continues to be life changing and marriage saving for many people.

I was thinking about what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13, that when I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, but when I became an adult, I put childish ways behind me. And in many ways, what we're dealing with in counseling is areas of immaturity in our life. And I don't mean that as a put down or a negative, but just a realization that it's not that I'm evil, making bad choices, there's something wrong with me, it's that there's an area of my relationship, my life, the way I make choices that hasn't matured, maybe along with my physical body. And so if you ask the question, how do I mature, it's typically through experiences that challenge us to grow and mentors who are helping us show us the way. And so in your relationship, in your marriage, many of us, quite frankly, haven't had many mentors. And I think a counseling experience really can be that environment where you are appropriately challenged and stretched and experience something that really helps you mature in the way you treat your spouse, the way you think about your marriage. And outside of that, many of us will stay childish and immature and the hope of a fulfilling marriage. When we have very immature responses, it's not a very good probability. So I just think if you can get yourself in an environment where you are stretched and challenged to grow by mentors who know the way and are pointing it to you, that's a valuable thing. And that's exactly what we're looking to do through pure desire counseling. And if it's a place where you're at, I think you need to really consider it, and we hope that you will.

Yeah. The work of recovery, of healing, of sanctification, of growth is something that we all have to do individually, like with the help of the Lord, but no one's going to do it for us. So why wouldn't you want to have a guide who knows exactly what they're doing? Helping you do that work, helping you do it more efficiently and more effectively? And that's really what counseling is, is having people who are guiding you through a process that they know they've been through the process, they know where it's going. They know what's possible, but they also know how to help you do the work along the way. And as you can hear from our conversation, we very much believe that counseling helps marriages. Absolutely. And that's why we love having 17 counselors on staff. We love that this is such a big piece to our ministry, and Bill and I, and you guys are a huge part of that aspect of our ministry, and we appreciate the work that you do and the expertise and experience you got to share today with us. So thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having us.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal, trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube. YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.