297 - Moral Failings In The Church w/ Randy Alcorn

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 297 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nuke Stumbo.

Ooh, baby do you know what it's.

Worth the singing, Jesse?

Ooh, heaven is a place I know.

Now I know where he's going.

Oh, heaven is a place on earth.

Do you think about how people respond? Like, I'm just curious. I mean, I don't think you have a bad voice at all. I think you do a great job. I like your singing intros, but do you ever think there are thousands of people every week that hear me?

Yeah, it's probably better if I don't think about their reactions because, you know, there have been a few who respond like it's not their favorite part, and I'm like, well, thank you. But others say they appreciate it. So, you know, I just throw it out there. It's our little deal. You know, we're doing it coming up on almost 300 times. So that's true, I guess, for people that enjoy it, they know to look forward to it, and for people that don't, they've just learned to skip the first minute or two and move on with their life.

I'll just say this. If you don't like Nick's intro, I promise you're gonna like who our guest was today. We had, and I don't say this lightly, we had the privilege of actually in studio having Randy Alcorn, like the Randy Alcorn in our studio, to talk about moral failings in the church.

Yeah, Randy Alcorn is a great guy, and many people maybe don't know that. He lives in our local area, where we're at here in Troutdale, Gresham, Oregon, and he, in the past, was a pastor at the church that you and I have both attended, and we've heard him preach there. But Randy is a very busy, connected guy, and so we were just honored. I think I've asked him to be on our podcast from the beginning. We did it and we got it.

We did it.

It took us almost 300 episodes, but we got him and just love his heart for pastors, for leaders, for the church and his wisdom. He's an incredible author, as most people know. And that's the connection to the intro that I encountered Randy's material first through a book called Heaven and another book called Deadline. And I think Randy's depictions of heaven are maybe some of the most vivid, encouraging, realistic Christian fiction that's out there on heaven and really helped me kind of develop an anticipation of why would I be so excited to spend eternity in heaven? So he's had an impact in my life long before I got to know him here. And we just wanted him to talk about what we've seen happen a lot with pastors and leaders ending up in moral failure. And asking that question of why do the people that are charged with leading the flock of God, who have been trained at some of the best Bible colleges and seminaries in the world, have all the spiritual gifts you could ever want, seem to have these deep struggles and issues that will go unaddressed until there's this huge fallout? And so I think Randy's had a front row seat to a lot of those because he's friends with some of these people, he's been a mentor, he's been someone invited into tough situations. So he's got a lot to share. I thought a lot today about the stat we've shared on this podcast that 57% of pastors would say they have a current or past struggle with pornography. But what is more significant to me is less than 1% of those pastors would say that their church knows anything about it.

Yeah.

So even for those you know in that 57% number, many of those are pastors who've had a past struggle and have dealt with it or found success or freedom, but even then, their church doesn't know it's not a story they feel comfortable sharing. And I think that's connected to the fallout we're seeing in these moral failures. And so we just talk about all of that today, and I think listeners are really going to enjoy getting to hear Randy Alcorn's perspective on this.

Yeah, you know something too, like, he's just, he's someone who, when you meet him, doesn't come off as someone who's a high profile author and someone who's known in the Christian space, but he is that. And so he was able to speak too, as someone who's in a position like that.

So I wish the listeners could all have seen the Bible. If you don't watch this, you probably can see it on YouTube. But if you're not watching hundreds of sticky notes, he said he brought in one of his older Bibles and it's got more sticky notes attached to it than any I've ever seen. And so that I found that very, very interesting and remarkable that that Was his method for remembering all these passages.

Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. It was honestly an amazing time. And before we get to that, you know, one of the things that I'm not sure a lot of people know that we offer this, and I think that's one of our biggest regrets in marketing is understanding how to better do this. People know about our online courses, they know about our groups, they know about the resources, they even know about church membership. But we have a program called Pure DES or pdl. There really is an offering that is intended to help pastors and leaders in the church. And this is the perfect episode to push this forward and remind people that we offer this resource.

Yeah.

The point behind Pure Desire Leaders is kind of a three strand chord, if you will, that it's a partnership between Pure Desire and the leader and their district or supervisor or denomination who wants to walk alongside of them and see them find health and freedom. But they often can't be directly involved. It's maybe not their training or even appropriate. So they want to create a partnership with Pure Desire that we provide the help and the healing journey, but do it in a way that then fosters that pastor or leader going back into ministry where there's maybe been a case of moral failure or in other cases like in my own story, to stay in ministry because the behavior is being addressed before it's crossed lines where removal from ministry is required. And obviously that's different in every denomination or how a group sets it up. And we work within that in the Pure Desire Leaders program, as we find out from a district, what do you want in terms of recovery? What's your plan? How can we help you build that out? And then it gives those districts or other nonprofit organizations the opportunity to say to their staff, to say, we care about you enough on our staff that we would rather help you get healthy and keep you on staff, then wait for you to have some kind of issue that requires us to remove you. And so we've got a number of partners that are providing that and it creates a lot of discounts on our services. And just give someone that real encouragement to say you can take this step. Because not only are you hearing us say it, we've actually taken steps to be partners with Pure Desire for your health and freedom. So we'd love to talk to you about what that looks like. We scale it based on how many leaders you're covering. So even if you're a small church with a couple of staff and you want to do that, you could become partners. Or if you're a huge denomination with thousands of leaders. We've got partners at that level too. So have a conversation with us and we'd love to explore how we could create a culture of health and freedom for your staff and for your leaders.

Yeah. So for more information on the Pure Desire Leaders program, you can go to PureDesire.org PDL all right, subscribe to the podcast and look, just, I'm telling you, if you give us a rating, if you give us a review, if you, it helps other people find the show. We want more people to get exposed to this. I was having a conversation today with an outside organization. It's like, what is your marketing strategy? And one of the things I found over the last few years is that our podcast is one of the easiest ways that we reach people. It's how they get introduced to us. Cause sharing an episode, seeing it's a highly rated show, something like that is always really helpful. And I know it helps me pick the podcast I listen to. So if you like me or if you love Nick's intros or whatever, just it would mean a lot to us if you did it. Okay, I'm gonna stop guilting you. You can also watch this full episode up on YouTube to see the Bible actually that Randy brought, as Nick mentioned. You can just search Pure desire ministries on YouTube and find this episode. And lastly, follow us on social media. We're DesirePDMI on all the major platforms. And with that, here's our conversation with the New York Times best selling author Randy Alcorn on moral failings in the church. Alright, Randy Alcorn, it's an honor and a privilege to have you with us today. Thanks for being with us today.

Great to be with you guys.

If people like who are watching or listening, you are in studio and you live around here. It's not like we flew you out here. It's not like you're getting this unbelievable tip.

We don't have that much budget.

We don't have that much budget. So I just want people to know.

As they're listening, I'm not charging you for mileage. I mean, hey, you know what I mean?

Let's wait till the end of the episode before we decide that. But either way, today we wanted to talk to you about moral failings in the church. As someone who's been in pastoral ministry has written on the subject of sexual purity, which I know you brought a copy of your book and has been really, whether you see it as this or not, in a high profile type of position, we know you have lots to offer this conversation. And so for those maybe, and I'm guessing it is two or three people who aren't familiar with you or your work. Can you just give us a little bit about yourself and the work that you're done, the organization you're a part of for our listeners?

Yeah. Years ago, I started as a pastor of Good Shepherd Community Church. Myself and Stu Weber were the two original pastors and still part of Good shepherd and love it. But then in 1990, as a result of civil disobedience, peaceful, nonviolent civil disobedience, I should add, at abortion clinics, I had to resign as a pastor because the abortion clinics were coming to garnish my wages from the church. So that was a great time to say, what do I want to do with the rest of my life? Thought I was going to be a pastor the rest of my life. But we started Eternal Perspective Ministries and really a platform for speaking and writing and that sort of thing. More writing than speaking, because I'm primarily a writer as opposed to a speaker, though I do still do a fair amount of speaking and just really emphasizing kind of the young people, unborn and unreached and unreached people groups. 100% of the royalties from my books go to support Christian ministries all over the world. So it really keeps us busy deciding what to give to because there are some organizations that are worthy of giving to at one point. And then things change doctrinally and vision wise and even morality wise. And then you just have to kind of reevaluate that. But, yeah, that's what we do. Yeah.

And you guys at Eternal Perspectives have really modeled generosity. And I know Pure Desire on a number of occasions has been a recipient of your generosity, and that's been an encouragement to us to have one nonprofit ministry financially Blessing and others. It's like I remember the first time I saw a gift from EPM come in. I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Didn't expect that. And it led to a conversation. And you and I dialogued a little bit. Randy, when the news came out about Ravi Zacharias and just what was going on there, and I know you blogged about it, but you have worked with hundreds and hundreds of leaders for a long time. And I know Ravi's not the first situation that you've seen or witnessed and would love to have you just kind of talk about why do we seem to see this kind of moral failing, moral failing, and particularly of the sexual nature so often from the pastoral profession. Do you Think there's something unique about the pastor position that lends itself to sexual brokenness.

In some ways, I think yes. At least in some church contexts, it seems like the big falls are always moral or financial. However, beneath both of those is pride. And pride is kind of the source of all sins. It's pretty hard to find a sin that in some way is not propelled forward by pride. The idea that either that I'm above the rules, they don't apply to me. And that happens in Christian ministries and it's fed by the people around it. So one of the huge problems, and I've seen this in numbers of organizations, is that the person who's on the top is viewed as somehow just truly above it all and should not be questioned. And often people learn, and this was true with Ravi, people learn that if you challenge or if you even ask questions about why did we buy a massage parlor as a ministry, why did we do this? What is going on with that? You don't ask those questions because you learn that if you do, you get squashed. But unfortunately you should anyway and be willing to lose your job. I mean, that's just exactly what should happen. And I've talked to pastors at churches where the senior pastor starts seeing himself above the rest of things and feels like he can yell and scream at people and belittle them and put them down. And then when other people don't speak up, well, they're just enabling it. They're just empowering him to send which is not in his best interest as well. Obviously not in the best interests of the church and the staff. So I think that's one of the common things when the organization gets big, well known, especially if it's a prominent speaker or writer. Even those who don't write their own books and other people write them, it's ghostwriting. That itself is I think one of the, the deceptions that happens where it's illusory. A guy thinks that he should get the credit for this whole ministry when it's other people who are making it work. And in some ways he may be quite dispensable to the whole thing. Easier to replace than a lot of the servant hearted people behind the scenes that are really doing the job. But yeah, so I think many churches and many organizations really feed into this problem.

Yeah, I think too there's an assumption and I know Nick and I have been pastors before working here at Pure Desire. And I know for me it was a lot less like it was not a high profile position for Me, but I know that there is like this assumption that effectiveness in ministry or success outright in ministry somehow means that there's a deeper relationship with the Lord or there's more maturity or this person's more godly than anyone else. And we just know that not to be true. Sometimes the most effective ways of reaching people and growing are actually some of the least godly ways to reach and grow ministries. So I think that that's possible, but because of that, because effectiveness can oftentimes create the high profile position. What ends up happening though is that there's a fear of losing that. And so if I'm honest about what's going on, even at the beginning of maybe some brokenness or there's a slip up or there's some questions, it's harder for me to give up that platform if I'm in that position of power of. To your point that there are people inside the church or in these church communities that in some ways create this platform for this person and then fear, pride all wrapped up keeps people I think from doing that because it would be very isolating for that position.

Yeah, you guys are talking kind of about the high end of pastoral ministry, those at larger churches, but I think those at smaller churches are maybe in other ways equally or more susceptible. You know, the average sized church in America is still under 100 people.

Right.

Which means it's usually a solo pastor who has a church office, no staff, and spends oftentimes most of their job alone in an office. Or they may be out meeting with people for that kind of thing. But a lot of it, it's solo work and it can be very isolating and in isolation. Many of us make poor choices. And so I think that's something that contributes to it. And also there is the pressure. We've talked about it a lot at Pure Desire that there's a unique double edged sword for that leader who feels like their employment is contingent on their character totally. And so to reveal flaws of character, and particularly in this area, the church has not always known how to handle it. So we typically don't deal with it until it's risen to the level of a dismissible failure or sin. And so if that's the area that you're struggling in, well, you're not going to reveal the thing that's going to cost you your job. So some of it I've talked to people like it comes down to the brass taxes of pastors have house payments and kids in school and things like, well, I can't admit to this because I could lose my income, and this is the only thing I'm trained for. And so we continue to think, well, I'm going to figure it out by myself. I don't need to tell people. I don't want to be embarrassed or lose my job at all. I'll go to that counselor or I'll read that book or I'll listen to that podcast and it'll get better by itself. And yet it's still being done in isolation. And so I think there is a tendency, whether a pastor is over a large ministry or a very small ministry, that it often is breeding an environment of isolation where keeping that a secret to the leader can feel like the smartest choice.

Right. The difference is the isolation is equally real. In both cases, the large church pastor is surrounded by people, but isolated from them because he doesn't divulge what's really going on. He keeps people at an arm's distance in order to be professional. He does not have close relationships with them. And that's to his harm because he can become isolated in a different way than that small and yet a similar way. And then the small church pastor who's literally isolated, I mean, he's not just keeping people's arm's length. Those people aren't around him until he goes and visits them. And even you think of a small church pastor going and visiting a woman in her home, you know, and there's, you know, the nearest neighbor in some cases might be 10 miles away in rural situations and various. And so he visits her, and then she says, well, come by again and fixes him a nice lunch. And then this starts to happen. And it's not a guy that's looking for immorality. I mean, who. You know, if most people don't just wake up in the morning trying to figure out ways they can ruin their lives through terrible sin, you know, and yeah, we are prone towards sin, but that's not our goal. But that does happen. And as you said, Nick, the isolation is just huge. And again, just in keeping with what you're saying, I mean, if the pastor looks at pornography and he's utterly ashamed. I remember when this happened to me when I was a young pastor and I looked at pornography and I hated myself. And I was so blown away. But then the question was, who do I tell? Ended up telling. A couple of pastors did not tell all the elders. And at some point, if it became a chronic problem, then there would need to be that next step. But you always. And there is no rule in the Bible, there is no rule that makes it clear that this is absolutely what you must always do in every situation. Talk to my wife, talked to a couple of close friends who were lay people in addition to the pastors, but that was all good to do. But it was so hard. Totally. And I remember thinking, would the elders ever trust me again if they knew? Well, I thought the same thing about pastors, my friends, my wife, everyone. You know, the pressure to hold it inside is huge, and a lot of.

People are wrestling with that totally.

So, I mean, and this is maybe more some church cultural commentary, I think, from you, but do you think we'll ever see a stop or at least decline in pastoral moral failings or of church leaders? And if so, what do you think needs to take place in order for that decline or that change to happen?

Yeah, it's hard to say on the decline end of things, believing in the power of Satan and demons and spiritual warfare. If I were the devil, I would target pastors. Sure. So, so effective. And the thing you have to remind ourselves, demons do not have infinite power. Satan certainly does not have infinite power. He's not the equal opposite of God. He is a creature. He's the equal opposite of Michael, you know, so he does not have the ability to be everywhere like, oh, Satan the other night was trying to convince me, and I doubt that was Satan. It was probably a demon who's under Satan, because Satan literally being finite, cannot be in two places at once. So either you're very special or that was some demon, one person in all. That's right, exactly. But. But the point is, they. You're not going to go, you know, if you're the devil, demons, you're not going to expend your efforts probably on the drug addict you may have previously, but now that he's caught by something, you don't really have to do much with him. He's in this situation through some bad choices, and then they can worry about and seek to take down others. I mean, the extent of what happened with Ravi was and the number of people affected by it. I was in Orlando, Florida, or actually a town about an hour outside of Orlando last weekend, and this woman came up to me, still devastated by the thing with Ravi, even though it's been years ago now, a few years ago now, anyway, and when it all came out, and she knew. Was a close friend of his wife and knew the family well and all this, and she says, and everybody says they knew, they had to know, they had to know, but none of us knew. And it was on and on. And then I was thinking, and this wasn't the time to have this conversation, but just, well, why did nobody know? And that's that thing again where somebody's always gone and they're always in the company of other people and they're ministering to a lot of women and they're spending much more time with other women than they're spending with their spouse. But we've got to just be more alert to that.

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing up the spiritual dynamic. And I've talked often about, like, 1 Peter 5, that your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. And I think you look at the area of our sexuality and say, man, if the enemy can trip us up there and convince us of shamefulness, of unworthiness, I mean, the way that limits men and women, pastors and non pastors from feeling like God can ever use them again, I think that's what I find so sad when people say, yeah, I felt called to ministry, but because of my struggle with, you know, fill in the blank, pornography, sex outside of marriage, they just figure I've permanently disqualified myself. And I think, well, that's the enemy trying to devour us. Because we all know that a failure or a setback isn't permanent. Now, there's certainly, depending on a person's story may be steps they need to take. There may be significant times of recovery even. But that thought that God is done with us because we've failed, I think really keeps people from dealing with something sooner. And so that'd be kind of my response to the question, Trevor, of like, will this ever change? I think it's when we create cultures in churches where pastors are permitted to be human beings who have normal desires, normal flaws, normal sins that are common to no temptation to seize. Do you accept what is common and that those pastors know, just like in your story, Randy, that very early on when something happens, you know, here's someone. Not only that I can tell, but I've been encouraged to tell. It's even been set up for me, like, hey, here's a place you can process your unredeemed parts of your soul. Here's the people you can go to for support, for community, for understanding. Because without that, most pastors just say, I'm going to deal with it by myself and in isolation. It continues to get worse until it does become something that clearly needs to have them removed from ministry. And so I think it's dealing with it. At an early place where those avenues are set up is really what could create change in our churches.

It's interesting. I went back to seminary recently, and as a part of the. Part of the application process, they asked if I had any unwanted behaviors or addictions or anything. And I indicated that I had a porn addiction. And so the head of admissions reached out. We had this conversation. And the conversation, I mean, I told her I'd been working a recovery program for eight years, like, been living in freedom. It's great. But then she asked some questions, like, what would you do? And it's funny. And the reason I'm even bringing this up is I think that in my experience in seminary, and granted, it took me 12 years, don't judge me, but in those 12 years, there wasn't a single class for me on sexuality or how to manage my sexuality, or how to really reveal those parts of me that are dirty or broken or I don't want people to see. And it's funny, in that conversation, I said, you know, one of the things I see is that maybe someone. Well, if you just ask the question, do you have any addictions? On an application for a seminary, if I want to become a pastor, I'm not going to say yes to that question. Why would I say yes to that question? Because then you're going to flag it. We're going to have this meeting, you're going to decide I can't go to school, and then I'm out. And so I think that that's one of the things I see. I think that that's one of the things that could really help in changing the culture in the church, is prioritizing how do we care for this future pastor or even this pastor who's in seminary right now, and finding ways to help them get sexually healthy. And obviously, there are many areas. Financial, emotional, relational, all of it, but specifically with sexuality. Because there's so much shame, because there's so much secrecy around it, that I just feel like if that was something that was more prioritized in the education and the building up of these future ministry leaders, then we'd see pastors walking in and standing in front of their congregation and saying, this is my story. This is a part of who I am. But I'm working on it. And here's how you can be free, too. And so I wish that at an institutional level, with training for pastors, I wish that we'd see more of that. I think that that's one area I would encourage be different.

I think transparency Is always good. When a pastor recently at our church, one of our pastors in a message talked about the problem that he'd had of yelling at his wife, getting angry at his wife, and that they've been getting counseling. It's been very helpful. I came up to him afterwards and said, I may not. How many people remember sermons a long time later, but they will not forget. They will forget the passage that you were totally probably, but they will not forget that you told this story. And I said, I would not be surprised at all that you may find one day that as a result of you saying that, that dozens of marriages were saved in this church. Because finally it was a, hey, if the pastor is getting help, we can get help.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Transparency is huge. And that, you know, back to the Ravi story, it was a lack of transparency that really created the issues. And I think from the reports I read, it was because there felt like, well, the ministry is too big, Ravi's too big. For us to really deal with this, we need to kind of act like everything's okay. And some of that's the celebrity culture that we're talking about. And I wanted to delve into that a little deeper, Randy, because I think celebrity culture is just common in our world. And some people might swing the pendulum to say, well, the answer is there should just never be a Christian celebrity. And yet the truth is, if someone is great at writing books or great at preaching or great at leading, they're going to develop a following, they're going to become known, people are going to read their stuff, and in a sense, the world, the Christian world, will treat them as celebrities. So what do we do about that in the Christian community? Like, how do we appropriately handle kind of a celebrity culture and how do we make sure that we stay healthy even as leaders get known for writing books or preaching sermons or doing conferences?

It's a great question. And for whatever reason, and I don't really understand why God has put me in a position where I've had a spiritual role in the lives of a number of very well known people who have reached out to me. And some are professional athletes. And one is an extremely prominent person in the world, very, very well known, that I just spent six days with he and his wife at their invitation, because they were actually close to my wife Nancy, who went to be with Jesus 10 months ago, and they were having a hard time dealing with her death and also facing their own mortality. He's 83 years old and everything. His world prominence, all of that led them to withdraw from people. They used to be very involved in a church, but when cell phones came along, it meant everyone is carrying a camera with them.

Totally. Yeah, 100%.

And so they go to church and people are taking pictures of them and always asking favors. And they learned not to trust people as a very sad thing. Now, should they have still been part of a church and pursued it? Yeah, they are now again involved in a church in a different location. But that is an example of putting people up. Now then there's even more. And the athletes, they're always in situations, especially the quarterbacks and others who are just very well known. Sometimes it's only in their own city. Some of them are, you know, on track to the hall of Fame. And they're always going to be recognized wherever they go by football fans. And they can't have normal dinners with their family, been out with these guys. And it's like, constant. And really, the wife usually gets more upset about it than the husband because the husband's ego's being fed. At least. At least he's got that going for him.

Sure.

Okay, and I'll sign it. But then it's not a normal family life. But I think in the spiritual realm, where it's a pastor, a teacher, I think it's even more dangerous because the spiritual becomes the equivalent of the football, the athletics, the movies, whatever this person is well known for. But when you turn the spiritual into one more means of becoming popular, that is extremely dangerous. And I've seen it. I have seen the temptation toward it in my own life. I have seen it in the lives of others. And you always have that thing where you go somewhere and you are going to meet somebody and you think, okay, I am speaking with this person, and I am just praying that I will just be encouraged when I see the actual life of this person. And sometimes you are encouraged, and sometimes you are discouraged. I had to, on a couple of occasions, somebody I was speaking with speak into their lives with just some things that they were saying and doing in the green room. And it is like, oh, that is not supposed to happen in the green room at this great Christian conference. But it does happen to us. And I'm as vulnerable to it as anyone. And I think in my life, what has been key as early on in pastoral ministry, partly through the story I told about the pornography, I became acutely aware of my own vulnerability. I came to not trust myself. I came to. There was a woman who I was counseling, and I just realized one day she said something, and it made it clear that she was attracted to me. And all of a sudden, the buzzer in my head is going off. And then I was recognizing. You knew that already. You've known that for weeks, maybe it was months. But you thought since you didn't have that feeling toward her, you were safe.

No problem.

Except one day you will if you keep entertaining that in and all. So I had to tell her, okay, we just can't meet anymore. And I didn't explain why.

Yeah.

You know, actually, I didn't tell her I had my. My secretary at the time. Now, she'd be more thought of as an assistant because a lot of pastors have assistants, but. And I had her run the interference and just have it to do with my schedule because legitimately, I was doing too much counseling.

Yeah.

And we could say that, but you just have to tread very carefully with those things. But I look back and I think, what would have happened if I would have continued to meet with that woman? And I think there's. There's a strong possibility I could have ended up in immorality.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's such a great point of, like, not trusting yourself, not. Not ever getting to a point where we assume, oh, I've arrived, and I'm above these things, because that's just not true.

Yeah. And I mean, that's the importance of that vulnerability and that transparency and having an inner circle of people that know everything about you. Because if you are gonna get to a position where maybe you are viewed as someone who's a celebrity, you need to be known by people. Like, there need to be people who can hold you accountable. Like, that shouldn't be happening in the green room, you know, like, maybe some of those conversations. But I just know that that's something that I think for the leader themselves to protect themselves there. And I know, too. I mean, I just say, in my experience, I appreciate when people who may. A guy who was local here for a while, John Mark Comer, to me, is a celebrity. I've had some conversations with him, and he doesn't act like a celebrity. He just acts like a normal dude who loves the Lord and wants to serve. And it's like, okay, that helps me. That helps me not put you on this pedestal. You're just this normal person, which is so helpful. But then, you know, I just think that it's really important that we also, as a church, don't just highlight the people who have the flashy. You know, like this weekend at Cherry, I go to Good Shepherd. Josh Putnam sings an incredible song it's like, oh, you look at Josh, oh my gosh, he's amazing. He's the best. But it's like the person who was standing at the door greeting people did just as much spiritual work that week that the person who's singing songs or preaching the sermon. And so I think there has to be that recognition and that highlighting of those gifts that maybe don't get seen every single week to make sure we're not platforming those people above the rest.

And I see that in both of the men you mentioned. John, Mark. I've seen his rise to prominence and popularity, but he seems to me to be the same guy every time I talk to him. And I'm sure that he's vulnerable to pride and everything else, just like I am and everybody is. But it's great to see that there's that reality to it. And Josh, our worship leader who you just mentioned, and he reminds me of another older worship leader, Paul Norquist, who both of them simply have the ability to lead without you focusing on them. They're focusing on Jesus and they're moving you to focus on Jesus instead of focusing on them. And sometimes it's just very different than that.

Yeah, I think anytime you're in a leadership role, whether it's over something large or small, you can kind of give into the pressure that, like, oh, I'm the guy or the gal. I need to be that person now that people need me to be. And you lose, I think, that ability to be real. And I remember in my own recovery, like 12, 13 years ago, one of the questions that the Holy Spirit really impressed on my heart, as I was at the time a senior pastor and not of a large church, but a good sized church in a small town, we were one of the bigger ones in that small town. So that could feed my ego. Like, well, we're one of the big churches. And then I felt like I couldn't be real about things I struggled with. But what the Holy Spirit, I think impressed on me was, are you the pastor because you're the most gifted person in the room or because I've called you?

Yes.

And I realized that was really the tension that if what qualified me to be the pastor was that I was the most spiritual person in the room, I always had to act like it because if I wasn't, then why did I have a job? Let's give it to the person who is. But if the answer to that question was, this is something God has called me to, then he called me weaknesses and all he Called me out of my failures and my humanity to do that role, which gave me the freedom to still be a human being in leadership. And I think that's something that whether we are a person in a church or leading a church or leading a ministry, that's a question we need to remember about every person who serves. Are they doing it because they're the very best at it or because God's called them? Because if we stay in that place of calling, then it leaves us with a lot of freedom to be real without being disqualified from what we're called to do.

Exactly.

I see Randy flipping his Bible open over there. I'm excited to see what happened.

Just give him a minute, huh?

Well, you know, one of the things that I was thinking of was in First Peter, where Jesus is called the chief shepherd, and then pastors are called under shepherds. But what was reminding me of was when I was doing my master's thesis on the shepherd theme in Scripture, and one of the things that I was really surprised to learn was that the shepherd's occupation was considered an extremely lowly and even just ignominious because it was just. They were looked down upon. A shepherd was not allowed to testify in a court case. He could not stand before a judge and give testimony because they're just assumed to be liars, and they're always dirty and smelly, and they're this, they're that, and all this kind of stuff. So when we're called shepherds, you know, in scripture, we might think of that as like, this big compliment. Wow, you're shepherding a group of people. Well, you know, it isn't historically a compliment to be shepherd. And so even when Jesus called himself the good shepherd, he was associating himself with something that was not highly thought of in scripture. And the very fact that the birth announcement came to shepherds as well as the magi was, was like, okay, he's coming to pagan, maybe astrologers, whatever. He's coming to very lowly. Not a respectable profession. And these are the ones that are being called in. And Messiah's birth is being announced too. And that was in keeping with who he was and is.

I mean, as you were saying that too, we've had some conversations with some other pastors that ministry is messy. It is not a clean thing. People growing and developing as they follow Jesus. And so you're gonna get some of that mess on you. If you're involved, you're gonna smell like the sheep.

Right?

And that's a good. And I don't like, and I don't want to cut you off. Like, I think there can be in my experience, this, like, self degradation where it's like, well, I just am supposed to be lowly and I'm not supposed to, like, take. Not supposed to say I worked hard on something or like, I don't really know where the balance is exactly. But finding it that, like, I do have worth and value because of what Jesus has done to me. I am contributing to the kingdom in this role that God has called me to. But I'm not getting too high and mighty where I'm not willing to go sit with someone at their deathbed and have that conversation with them or to go minister to someone who's going through a really hard time. And I think that that's the balance that, I mean, I know in my experience that I would try to find in ministry is just how can I still be willing to maybe clean the toilets if it needs to take place? But also I can get up on stage and effectively preach the message of the gospel.

I remember one time years ago, when the elders of our church asked me to interview several different candidates for a pastoral position. I remember this one young man who was just great. And I was hoping we'd get a young man about his age. But one of the questions I asked him was, can you give me. Can you give us an example of a time where God has really humbled you? I mean, really humbled you? And he thought about it and he says, well, you know, sometimes when I preach, there are a few people at least, who don't like my messages. Oh, okay. Anything else come to mind when God has really, truly humbled you? And I even said, maybe devastated you and you embarrassed yourself and you humiliated yourself, or you made bad decisions and you yelled and screamed. You did. I mean, just anything like this? Well, no, I really mean it. There are sometimes some people that don't totally like my messages. I mean, most people do. Most people really like them, but there are some. And I said to the guys afterwards, I'm really not putting him down at all. I guess it's wonderful if that's all the tough experiences.

Lucky you, guy.

But the thing is, if he hasn't been humbled yet and he comes here and becomes a pastor, he will get humbled and then we'll get humbled with him. And so we do enough dumb things in our lives to humble ourselves. We don't need his help, you know. And so this was. And this was a couple of the guys, they ended up not Choosing this guy. But a couple of guys were going, yeah, but, man, he's got this going for him, all that. I'm just going, you know, it wasn't. That wasn't the only issue. But to me, it was big. It was really big because he literally could not think of anything. And I look at my life and I think of. I mean, I had to. I'm went to jail. I'm on the front page because of my civil disobedience and the abortion issue. I had people just in my church and many others who just really. I got terrible letters from people who said I was doing this awful thing and bringing disgrace.

Nick's really sorry that he sent that letter to you. That was.

I was 11 at the time. I forgive you.

That's right. But seriously, those things so helped me to be misunderstood, to know that there are a lot of Christians that are never going to really know the truth about what I did and did not do at abortion clinics and who forever will write me off or whatever. But then for every one of those, there's someone who gives me more praise and esteem than I deserve, you know, so it's balanced out. You know, even if you say to yourself, I shouldn't care. Well, we do care. However, I would also say this. One of the greatest things the Lord did was to develop a thick skin in me. And when I was a young pastor, I had a thin skin.

That can be hard. Yeah.

And, oh, my goodness. But over time, I just went, all right, if I'm going to have a thin skin when this is happening to me and I'll never be able to explain my side of the story in this, it's just not going to happen. Then I'm in trouble. And I do think that's where seeing God as the audience of one, as the one whose evaluation of our life really matters, then you see both the positive and the negative from him, because you see the positive that you're his child and he loves you. But because you are his child, he's going to discipline you and you are cherished and you are part of his family forever. But he sets high standards for you and he expects you. We're going to rule the universe under him. And he doesn't want the spoiled prince and spoiled princess to rule the universe. He's going to take us through humbling experiences and getting back to the sexual purity issue. That's certainly one of the huge ways that many people have been humbled, though sadly for some, it's a temporary thing. They're humbled and you think that this has changed forever, but they still haven't dealt with the root types of issues that you work with at Pure, Pure Desire. And they're thinking, I'm okay now. And they're so used to being the helper of other people that then they think they can help themselves out of this and they can't.

Yeah. So I mean, we're getting into that. What can churches do? And maybe this, maybe we're talking to churches that have never had a moral failing happen. But I know there are lots of churches, especially in our country, that have had this happen. I'm sure globally too. What can churches and their pastors do to proactively protect themselves from a moral failing of a leader in the church?

Yeah, certainly total openness and transparency and elders and other leaders of the church leading the way and saying, let me tell you some areas where I have struggled in terms of sexual purity. And so in some cases it may be full blown adultery. It might have been promiscuity before they got married that now is having an effect on their marriage and their wife is struggling over this. It might have been that they were sexually abused. And that's a pretty hard thing to share with a group of elders that you're used to. Hey, we're the leaders of the church, but if they can show the way to the new pastor or the candidate of pastor. Okay. And we're going to tell you some things. I've had this experience we've had three of us in this room have been addicted to pornography. At least three have shared. They have been. So, you know, how many total? Who knows? But whatever. And so we're just saying, hey, would you, we've just told you our story. Would you be transparent with us? You know, I think that's tangible. If you're trying to put a pressure on him that you're unwilling to share your real life.

That's a good word.

You know, then that's probably not, not fair and not effective either.

Gosh. Can you think about, like, what if elders did that when they were interviewing for pastors? Have you experienced that?

I think that is the culture. And again, we don't ever intend to like diss the church because we're for the church. We believe in the mission of the church, that it's God's tool to be his hands and feet in the world. But I think in a lot of church cultures there is some of that of like, well, we don't really talk about our stuff, but if you've got something we Certainly expect that you'll talk about yours, which creates this environment that where if it's the pastor struggling or really an individual in the church, they feel like, well, I'm the only one, because no one else is talking. But they say, confess your sins. They say, get real, but no one else is doing it. Then I'm led to think I'm the one sinner here that can't get my act together, which actually makes it harder to open that door. So we've just talked about what a gift it is, what you're describing, Randy. That gift of going first, that gift of jumping into the deep end of the pool and sharing something. To be real and to be vulnerable. And obviously there's a right time and place for that. That doesn't mean everybody needs to know all things all the time, but there always needs to be places where, whether you're the pastor or someone who just attends the church or somewhere in between, that, you know, you're invited to be real and others are sharing in that with you. Because when those environments are taking place, we're going to find health and community together. That's. I think that's how the gospel works.

Yeah, I think of. And we were all actually were going to the church at the time this happened, but Alan Halofka, a good shepherd who's an amazing man, love him. Alan, if you're listening, we love you. I don't think you listen.

I love you too, Al.

Yeah, you should.

You should go down.

Nick is the only one who hasn't weighed in on you. Alan, notice that man.

I know you're getting sick. You're getting sick, but he's going to.

Send you chocolates, so.

Oh, my God, she totally will. So sweet. But I remember because my whole point is with this one is if you have a program, if you have a plan to help people in this, that will set your church up for future health. Now, that doesn't mean that every pastor who's struggling or every leader who's struggling will enter these groups, but at least you have something that you're offering. And that's why we want sexual integrity 101 groups. That's why we want you to have a church membership. That's why we want Seven Pillars and Unraveled and Betrayal and Beyond groups going in your church because that then becomes a part of the DNA of your church. It's okay to admit I have problems. It's okay to admit that I need help in this area. And it's okay to be surrounded by other people and share my story with them in that safe environment. But why I bring Allen up is it was amazing and super powerful. When we were starting a Conquer series at our church, he got up and said, I want every single man in this room to come to this, and I'm signing up first. Come with me. And it was this rallying cry of, I'm a pastor. You see me, I've been on stage for however many decades up here, but even I still need some work in this area. Even I still need to grow in my understanding and need to develop more sexual integrity. And that when someone goes first and sets that example, not only is he sharing his story, but he's saying, like, hey, you come with me. We're gonna go do this together. That's a huge way to create a movement of health in your church.

Yeah, that was a cool moment. So what, what encouragement would you give Randy? I mean, in the number of people listening to this podcast, there's probably several that fall into this category that they're a pastor or leader who, if they're honest, they haven't really dealt with their sexual sin and they don't know where to start. What kind of encouragement would you give to that person to start taking steps towards the vulnerability you're talking about?

Yeah, I think if we weigh the consequences of either doing that or not doing it, are there serious consequences and is it going to be hard to do that? And the answer is yes. And then the question to me is always, do those consequences outweigh the consequences of not doing it? The consequences of not doing it are much, much, much bigger. One of the ways is that you're living a life where you're maybe even fooling yourself, but you're certainly fooling other people. Even when we say the thing of, oh, think of all the pastors who have fallen. And then somebody's thinking, well, my church, the pastors have never fallen. And it's like, well, you don't know. But come on. There are many, many, many pastors who have moved from church to church to church, and none of their churches knew the extent of their fall. You can cover that up. There are certain things you can't cover up effectively. There are other things you can cover up. And sometimes the pastor's wife is in on the COVID up. She's not telling anybody either. And there's financial reasons for that, stability, family reasons, shame, all of those things. But I do think that we've got to. I think as people in ministry, I'm no longer a pastor, but I just have to look at my life and say, okay, if I don't deal with this, if I don't deal with this with honesty and integrity and a level of transparency. Transparency doesn't mean transparency always with every single person. It does mean transparency with people who truly can, even though it's the overused term, but it's still such a good term, and that's to be accountable. And I think that if we come to grips with the consequences of not being accountable, and you can't be accountable without honesty, There has to be a certain level of transparency or it's not true accountability. I remember years ago, I started accountability groups on our pastoral staff. The very first book that I wrote, it came out in 1985, long out of print, was called is called Christians in the Wake of the Sexual Revolution. And in was just about the commonness of immorality in the Christian community. Among pastors, Christian leaders, laypeople, rampant problems where the church is just following the lead of the world and having way more impact on the church. The world was. Than the church was having on the world. But I think that honesty, that transparency, just weigh it, measure it, and then if you have to take, I would say take bold steps, but if you have to take baby steps and find yourself being a little more transparent and telling this story. But now there's another story that still needs to be told. But, you know, if you're with the right people, they'll accept that story. And then to be able to come back to them and say, you know what? You seem to be able to accept what I said, there's more. And now I'm going to tell you the rest of the story.

Yeah, I really do believe that God cares more about my health, holistically, spiritually, sexually, mentally, relationally, all of that, than he does about the position I hold. And so if you're a pastor, he cares more about your health, where you're at and what needs to heal in you than how awesome your sermons are, you know, because there's always going to be that asterisk next to it. You're still living in unhealth, but then you're functioning in this role. And I think that that can do a lot of damage, too. And I think Ravi is a great example. Like, look at how effective he was, but then how damaging it is now, knowing what was going on that entire time. So I think that's.

Yeah. And our ministry is an example of this, where we. And I've had to kind of justify this to some people who thought that it Wasn't the right thing to do. But we took down the stuff, the guest blogs, that kind of thing from Ravi, who was a friend. We were not close friends, but we had many conversations at many events that we were speaking at. And I loved him and I respected him. And, I mean, I could tell you stories, which I want, but the respect he showed for one of my teenage daughters was just amazing in a certain situation where all the important people were trying to get him to do something else. And he would not stop talking to my daughter. And we walked away, and she says, dad, that was amazing. It made a huge impression on me. Of course, then when he fell, I had to sit down with her and say, so a guy that we both love, and this is the real story, and this is not speculation. This is all for sure. But then I had a close friend who's on Ravi's board, and he just says, randy, of all the people I knew, I was certain there's no possible way. But when you start viewing that, that way, you don't understand how a person can be a truly kind person. And I think that Ravi was not faking it with my daughter. And so you think you can be genuine here, but that does not mean you're genuine here. And that's where we just have to help pastors and help ourselves as pastors and Christian leaders to say, okay, I really may have a genuinely good attitude over here. We're not asking, am I totally always bad all the time? Of course I'm not. But there's no way the good stuff can make up for immorality, lust, and all those destructive things. It's just not. They don't weigh on a scale against each other.

Well, and I appreciate how you bring that up, because I think that is what we do with a lot of leaders, is we want to put them into categories that either, well, they're bad and corrupt and they were just lying about everything, or they're good and we can trust them where the truth is. I think every leader, even the ones that have had moral failure, they've had really good parts of their story and of their life that were redeemed and holy and being used for God. But there were unaddressed parts of brokenness. And I think that's the place we have to come to as Christ followers to just realize every leader and every person, no matter how long they've been at it, is still in process. And the places in which they're not yet fully redeemed, they've got issues to work on. And we all do. And if we could see a leader through that lens, I think more leaders would feel that permission to be real about the process they're in rather than acting like they've arrived. And that's what the Ravi story that I keep coming back to is wondering, what if in his 30s or 40s, he would have gotten help? What you said about counting the costs, would it have been embarrassing for him? Oh, I'm sure it would have been. Would it maybe have cost him some opportunities? Probably. But could it have put him on a different trajectory? That at the end of his life, the story would have been very, very different? And so because. And it's in some ways unfortunate that we're talking about someone that has no ability, because he's passed on, to either defend himself or to redeem his story. The final note in his story will always be a sad one. But what could have been written differently had he gotten help early? And that's what I think I would say to any leader, is your story can have a different ending and let God write that story, even if right now, like Randy's saying, you have to do some really hard things.

Yeah. You know, too, it's funny, I think of 2 Corinthians 1, and I go back to this all the time, that I would have never told you that the ministry that I would have the most impact in would be the place I had the deepest brokenness in my life. But God is using the way that he has comforted me to comfort other people. And I think that it becomes like a ministry superpower. You have an experience that you can speak to, and I know Nick and I, that's, you know, and obviously, Randy, with your struggle as well, it's something we can speak to with experience and knowledge and practicality in a way that may actually make us more effective than we ever were in any other ministry we've been a part of.

There's a verse in Jonah 2:7 that isn't quoted very often, but I think should be. He says, of course, when he was in the stomach of the whale and when my life was ebbing away, I remembered you. Yahweh, this is the proper name of God. And my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple. Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could have been theirs. I think that sense of regret, of missed opportunities, who I could have been, how I could have been used of God in much, much greater ways, and if I earlier on would have come to terms with my sin. But of course, if you're in your 80s and you're now just coming to terms with your sin. Come to terms with your sin and God will bless you and use you. Do not feel like, oh, well, it's too late now. No, it's not too late now. If you're still alive, it is not too late. But the point is how many opportunities to honor him and to serve him and to personally benefit ourselves in terms of our happiness. One of the things that I say in my book, the purity principle, is that purity is always smart. Impurity is always stupid. No exceptions to that. There is no ultimate payoff. There's of course the short term payoff of pleasure for a moment, but that's not even really a payoff in any meaningful sense because it's done harm to me. And what does good to me is to be pure. So it's not just. And I still know a lot of people who, whenever there's conversations about purity, their only motivation is I need to do the right and holy thing. Good for you. You're absolutely right. You do need to do the right and holy thing. But God gives us multiple motivations. It's not just do something because it's right, do something because it's helpful. Do something because it's in your best interest. It's in the best interest of your marriage, of your life. Oh no, that's selfish. You should never do anything because it's in your best interest. Yet God has created a universe in which for his children, that which is to his glory is always for our good. That which is not to his glory is always to our harm. And so I think that gives. That's the book of Proverbs. And that's where parents who are trying to teach their kids to do the right thing because it's the right thing. How about in addition to that? Yes, that's a very good reason. It's the right thing. It's also the smart thing. And it will save your life from tragedy. You won't be like Proverbs 5, the ox that's led to the slaughter and he who touches another man's wife shall not go unpunished. These are consequences, serious consequences. And God is telling you this for your own good. He does not want you to have to suffer those consequences. He doesn't just want you to not do that which isn't to his glory. He also doesn't want you to do that which is not for your good.

Same conversation I had this morning trying to convince my 6 year old to wear jeans to his chapel at Damascus Christian School, but he wanted to wear shorts and long socks. I should have just had you come in, give that speech to him. It's just so good. It's such an important thing to know that it wouldn't. And that's a good word, I think, for a lot of people, even when you're thinking about self care or getting into recovery, that doing that work that benefits you, that's right along line with what God wants for you. What God wants. That's awesome. Thank you for that, Randy. Okay, so let's look at after a moral failing, how do churches recover from that? And I think this is one of the hardest things. You know, it's funny, not even a moral failing, I guess, in this capacity, but I think of the podcast the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Just the absolute destruction that a moral failing or some sort of breakdown of the leadership in a church can cause. What does restoration and healing look like for a church, specifically when it comes from a sexual moral failing from their pastor?

Yeah, that is a huge question. There are many churches that I know who have never recovered from the sexual immorality of their pastor, largely because the leadership was intent on keeping information from people. We don't want people to know the extent of. Of this. They know he's been dismissed for moral failure. They don't know it was with five different women as it came out. They don't know. They know it's moral failure, but they probably think it's recent moral failure. Well, what if it's been the last 15 years? How could we ever recover from the utter shame of this? Well, now you've got pride on the part of the other pastors and lay leaders of the church who would have to probably admit that they should have picked up some signals, like all the time he was spending with that other woman who was not his wife. And. Oh, yeah, but that's my best friend's. I mean, that's my wife's best friend and she says it's great for us to go jogging together and it's great for us. My wife's all, she's not into jogging and her friend is. And so it's all, you know, and it's just like, come on, just common sense would tell you, let's take some precaution here. So I think the big thing is, if you're going to recover from it, it's kind of like if you're going to recover from cancer or some disease or whatever, you better not be holding back information from your doctor, because I Don't want my doctor. I just don't want my doctor to know how bad it is. That's kind of like. Like, okay, so that's not a good formula for being cured. Right. And so I think churches that want to get past this cannot get past it except going through it. They can't go around it. They can't just because, again, there's people who are finding things out three years later that when it was acknowledged that they had dismissed a pastor for morality, that. That it involved girls in the youth group, that it involved a boy in Sunday school, that's what were they trying to do? They were trying to protect their reputation as a church. Anytime you're trying to protect your reputation as a church or as an individual and you're withholding information about the reality of sin in order to do it, it will backfire every time, and God certainly is not going to bless you for it. So I say, that's a big one.

There's really some similarity there with how we would say you need to deal with any wound or tragedy. You have to face it. You have to acknowledge it. You have to move through kind of the grief cycle idea like, we're going to face it and go through the pain, because on the other side comes acceptance and a new normal. And so I think for churches to face it, acknowledge it, grieve it, mourn the loss, and then on the other side of it, start ask the question, and now what will we do differently? Because I think there is a version of insanity happening in the American church where we think, well, that was just a bad leader and we got rid of the bad leader. Now we'll get a better one, and they won't do that. But nothing else will change. The ways we expect vulnerability, the way our church handles recovery, the taboo nature of sexuality. In our church, none of that will change. We just think we'll be okay because we get a better leader. And it's like, well, no, if you just keep putting in new leaders into the same system, you're often going to get similar results. So we have to ask the question, what do we do to create a healthier culture here for our leaders and for our people?

You know, one of the great things that the elders of our church did was to ask several of us to come in and walk them through. Okay, we made a very bad decision and we didn't correct it soon enough, despite all the input we got from people. Could you walk us through what you think we did wrong and how we could have avoided it? And so there were, at least, I know, two of us that were asked to come in and do it. And there might have been more. And honestly, to walk through that and to say, okay, guys, I don't know. I mean, I used to be a leader at this church. I made a number of dumb decisions. So you guys did too. This was a big dumb one, and I made some pretty big dumb ones. And cumulatively, maybe they added up to more than this one. But, yeah, I mean, you're right in even asking the question, what did we do wrong? And by the way, one of the things that happens in leadership, and it happens related to covering up sexual sin in the church is groupthink. The guys listen to each other and they hear each other, and it all makes sense. Well, why would we put our church through this? Well, because your church can learn from it. And also because they need to know the truth, and the truth sets free. It's deceit that creates the bondage. And so just be real about it and face it head on and do what you need to do and admit it. And then eventually, because I do know churches that are long. It's been many years since there was sexual immorality in a pastor. And it's not the gloom, it's not the cloud always hanging over for a few years. It may be, but if you deal with it correctly, you can move on from it much more quickly.

I think another aspect that needs to be considered is how we're caring for the people that this impacted directly. That it's not just. And that's part of the reason why we should talk about it publicly, because then we're not hiding what has happened to these people. Then also, like, it's not a clean process. It's very difficult to sit and to hear. I can think as a leader if I'm trying to consider, should I cover something up? Should I withhold some information? There's a risk that I'm gonna sit down with people if we're open about this and hear about all the crap that's happened and all the stuff that has negatively impacted them. That's gonna be hard for me as a leader to hear that I was a part of creating that. But again, that has to be humility. It doesn't matter. What matters is you need to care for your people and allow them, give them that space to process and to talk through it, because they're the ones who really got damaged. They're the ones who are going to live with this, especially if you keep it secret.

Yeah. And some People just live under. Some church leaders live under the constant fear of lawsuits, possible lawsuits. If this all came out, this church could be held financially liable. Okay, yeah. All right. I mean, live with that.

When in truth, the lawsuits usually come because information's been with and people weren't protected and truth wasn't told. So yeah, keep that in mind. Well, we've addressed this from the church side, Randy. Let's then go to the more personal side because we know the heart of the gospel is redemption. So can a fallen leader be restored and when, and what does that look like to restore someone who has experienced moral failure?

Yeah, I think for sure a fallen leader can be restored. Not as quickly as some people try to make it happen. I remember years ago, a very well known Christian leader fell and this other pastor and other church reached out to him. And a year and a half after, he devastated his large church and it would have been the same as a small church church. And there hadn't been, the steps had not been followed and there hadn't been the accountability and there hadn't been the true fruit of repentance. And this other well known pastor reached out to him and that church brought him on staff and made him part of the regular preaching team. Why? And this was literally said, and the church cannot, the church of Jesus, meaning the global church, needs to have this man's gifts in operation. Anytime you say that when you're talking about this man's gifts, forget this man's gifts. This man's gifts are nothing. Are you kidding? None of us. You can take the most gifted person in the world and that means nothing when it requires moral and biblical compromise to get that person back on. So yeah, there are the churches that go way too quickly. I remember one of the greatest things in the history of our church. There was a man who had been a pastor and primarily a seminary professor who fell into immorality. And myself and another pastor confronted him when we heard about it and asked him if it was true. And he did, to his credit, admit that it was. And this man, literally, we said, we believe you're disqualified for ministry, teaching at seminary, being a pastor and all that. And we believe you could be qualified again, but who knows when? And so don't wait till you become qualified again. Don't be waiting for a pastoral position. You got to do something else. And he actually got a job as a bus driver, school bus driver. And he did it for years and he never complained. He was faithful. He would find ways to minister to people. But when he was Asked to come on staff at a Christian organization. And he came and asked us as leaders, do you think there's been enough time? There just hadn't been enough time yet. So he turned it down. And he could have easily just walked away from our church. It was actually a church in another state. And he could have gone on with him. He chose to stay and to submit to that council. And I would say, had he lived another two or three years, the way he was going, the way his life was going, his marriage was going, that he would have been qualified again for pastoral ministry. He went home to be with the Lord. And I remember saying, speaking at his funeral, the respect that I had for that man as a result of how he handled it.

Yeah, I think you're speaking about a willingness to do the work as long as it takes to get right. You know, I think too, churches, it's not like we should plan for moral failure, but we need to have something in place. What does a restoration path look like? And if you have that, it's like the gosh, I'm thinking of something you've said before, Nick, but the idea of it's better to have a plan before something ever happens. Right. Than to like, oh, no, we don't have a plan. What do we do? And so I think having something in place like that is always helpful. And maybe it's a restoration path not for that leader to be back pastoring or shepherding your church again, but it's focused on them and their health, their healing, getting them where they need to be. I feel like that could be really helpful just for the future of a church and a future of that pastor.

Yeah, I think what you're saying, Randy, that I just really resonate with is that the goal isn't time, it's transformation. So it's not like, well, if you take a year off, two year time out, then you can come back. Well, no, it might not be. It might be a lot longer. What we're looking for is transformation. And that really has a lot to do with the heart of the leader, the nature of their sin, what they got involved in, how deep it is, what kind of work do they engage in, where's their humility level? Like that can greatly influence a time frame from what might be a year in some cases, or in other cases, it might not ever be possible because it's not about time going by. It's about transformation. And if the leader's not going through a process that's leading them into transformation, I don't care if it's been a decade, you don't want to put them back in that same environment. And so I think it's. The other thing I would encourage churches and listeners to think about is on the flip side of it, the way we treat our leaders communicates something to our people.

Yes.

And so if we say, well, this leaders disqualified himself and he will never be allowed again into a church setting, like, well, every guy sitting in the room who's had the same sin is zipping their lips like, well, I will never breathe a word of my issue. Why would you? Because I just found that's how you get. Get permanently disbarred. But if a church says, man, we grieve for what happened, and he's had to step out of this role, we've asked him to resign, and we've invited him into a process of transformation because we love him, we care about him, we want to see him healthy. And if those steps happen, then down the road, who knows what the Lord will do? But it's that kind of communication that I think helps the church see, oh, they still love this person. They're still inviting him to be around, maybe with appropriate boundaries or guardrails, but they're not disbarred from community. I think that just creates an environment where others say, oh, it is okay here to fail and yet still be loved. And I think that's what we need to create in our churches.

I just returned from a church in Leesburg, Florida. That's the one that's an hour or so outside of Orlando. This church is amazing. I'll just say, what is it? First Baptist, Leesburg. There's a movie that's been made about how they. They bought an old CD motel and converted it into a living situation for women who were on the street with their children, homelessness and all that. But they have a men's rehab center, a women's rehab center. They've got a medical unit. They have a pregnancy center. They have. I mean, it's on and on. I mean, it's unbelievable. This property is covered with. There's the main church building, but then all this square footage that's devoted to all these other things in addition to a Christian school as well. Well, the kids who are going to that Christian school know that that's a men's recovery group going on over there, and drug and alcohol primarily, but other things as well. That's a women's recovery group thing. That's this housing that is being provided by the church. And yeah, they have certain requirements you got to do certain chores and different things. But what hit me was the sheer visibility of this. If that church had been doing the same thing in another location, it probably would have been just as virtuous in the sight of God. But for the people to, every week see people who look like recent street people in their congregation, and they look like recent street people because they are recent street people. And, oh, my word, it was just like it blessed my heart. I mean, I thought, I would love to see this. And by the way, the movie that's about this, it tells how they had saved, I don't know, a few million dollars, some large amount of money to build a new church building on their facility. And the pastor felt led of the Lord to go to the board and say, I think we should spin this, buy that hotel and turn it into something where we can do this. And they did it. Man, when you take something that. Are you kidding? When a church doesn't build a building and takes the funds devoted to it, I'm not putting down buildings. I'm just saying to do that, that means hearts were touched.

We're taking recovery seriously.

Totally. Yes.

Just to kind of wrap up, I just. I think the story you told of that pastor who then became a bus driver, I think it's important to emphasize that God's love for that man never changed.

Never.

And that his effectiveness in ministry as a bus driver could be just as impactful as someone who's on the stage speaking to thousands of people every single weekend. And so I think it's important, again, that regardless of if this is your story, that you've had a moral failing or you're someone who goes to a church or is leading a church that has had this. God is absolutely for you, is absolutely for restoration. And I know that we, Nick and I, definitely here at Pure Desire. And I know you, Randy, and your organization are hopeful that this can change, and we want to be a part of that change. And honestly, man, it means a lot to us that you come and you just sit with us and talk with us. We've learned a lot from you, and we'd love to do it again. We'll try not to pester you too much, but thank you so much for being here with us today.

Well, you're welcome. And thanks for what you do. I mean, honestly, it's such a privilege to have a ministry in this area that's involved in a number of churches and where people are just aware of what you do and how well you do it and to have just the good reputation that you have and keep it up. Stay, stay close to the Lord and keep that good reputation going.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure you check out the full episode up on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

It.