299 - How Recovery Changes After Year One w/ Ben Bennett

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 299 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not. How long are you gonna let me go? Like, this is a long quote.

Is it a coach? Are you quoting a coach? Talking about.

No. Okay.

I got nothing.

It was when LeBron James signed with the Miami Heat and they did their first, like, presser.

All three of them came out.

Yeah. With Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. And he was asked, like, you know, are you gonna bring a championship to Miami? And he's like, not one not to. And he's. You know, he said not. I think he got all the way to seven, he said, and when I say that, I really believe it. And I think they won two, so, you know, he didn't actually.

They made it to the final.

Made four in a row, which was impressive, but, yeah, it did not end up coming to fruition. But that quote is one that he's known for.

That's right. I'm taking my talents to South Beach. That's probably the one he's known most for.

Yeah.

Okay.

So people burning their jerseys in the.

Streets, and, hey, he came back in respect to LeBron.

Yeah. And then those people that burned their jerseys were probably like, darn it, now I got to go buy another one.

Yeah. And then they burned it again when he went to la, so it's fine. Okay. So today we had Ben Bennett, who is the founder director of Resolution Movement, is also a part of the speaking team at Josh McDowell Ministry on good friend of ours. Love him. Friend of the show. We had him on to talk about how recovery changes after year one.

Yeah. And when we think of recovery, when we think of a healthy marriage, when we think of avoiding our old behaviors, it is not just for one year, not just two, not three, not four. Like, it's. It's for a lifetime.

Right.

And so I think today's conversation was really wrestling through. Well, what does that take? What does that look like? What will I have to implement after that initial year where there's a lot of intensity around group and for some people, counseling, and there's this kind of burning coal in our. In our soul of, like, I've got to do this. That's why we're motivated. And then we find recovery and things calm down. And it's kind of asking the question now what? So that it's not just one good year or two or three or four, but it's a lifetime of health and recovery. And I think today's conversation hopefully gives that idea to everyone. What. What might that look like in my story? And we want to encourage you to take those steps.

Yeah. And Ben is great. Ben's been in recovery now, you'll hear in the episode, for a decade and has had a lot of sobriety and health. So he was definitely the right person to have this conversation. You know, Nick, one of the things we talked about in the episode was the idea of giving back or paying it forward. This recovery that we have experienced, the healing we've experienced. And one of the ways that this is possible, as someone who's been through Pure Desire counseling or a Pure Desire group, is to join what we call team 58. Why don't you just tell people a little bit about this opportunity?

Yeah.

One of the messages that comes up in several of the Pure Desire resources is how the most motivating thing for change is when we're doing good for the good of others. And we realize if I do this now, it will help them. And I think that's part of what Team 58 is all about, is being a part of the monthly financial support of Pure Desire, even in a small way that reminds us I'm a part of something bigger, that, yes, my recovery matters in my world and my relationships, but ultimately, we need to see a world set free. We need to churches. We need to see churches become safe places of healing and recovery. We need it to just become common language for Christ followers that talks about healthy sexuality. And we feel like Pure Desire as a ministry because of what God has done, is leading the way in that. Not a credit to us, but we just. We feel like that's God's plan through and for Pure Desire, and that that's something no amount of staff here at our offices can accomplish. It's got to be a movement. And so we feel like when someone joins team 58, they're saying, I'm a part of this movement. I'm supporting it. And because of their monthly support, we're able to communicate more. We're able to kind of build into that team and really try to fuel that flame of we're a team, and we're doing this together. So if you're not a part, this is just my challenge to say, jump in. And even if it's five bucks a month, ten bucks a month, it's one coff you a month to say I'm a part of what's happening. It has a way of connecting our heart to the mission and we'd love to have you do that because of what I believe ultimately it will do for you and your own recovery along the lines of what we're talking about in the episode today.

So what I hear you saying is instead of being angry after spending 10 bucks on a latte, you can be happy giving 10 bucks to Pure Desire.

Yeah, I'm helping other people.

So if you do want to join Team 58 or just financially give even a one time gift to Pure Desire, you can go to PureDesire.org give. All right, couple more things. Subscribe to the podcast and reminder that this full episode is up on YouTube. Ben has a cool backdrop.

You're gonna wanna see it. And a cool hat.

Just saying. Just saying. Yeah. Plug, Plug, plug. Also follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And with that, here is Ben Bennett helping us talk through how recovery changes after year one. All right, Benny B. Welcome back to the show, man. Glad to have you. Thanks for being with us.

Hey, thanks for having me. It's so good to be with you all. Nick, what are you drinking over there? Some coffee?

Yes, coffee for sure.

I just got some water.

Kind of surprised you, huh? My coffee cup?

Yeah.

I actually wonder when I use this coffee cup because, you know, it kind of proudly displays Portland. And for some people that don't live around us, they may have opinions of what they think of Portland because of how we've been portrayed in the national media over the last two years. But, you know, in spite of what you've heard, Portland is still a pretty beautiful, cool place. And yeah, we call it home.

We do. I mean, I guess because you started it that way. Are you drinking anything, Ben?

Yes, I guess maybe I was. Maybe I was expecting that question because I've been listening to podcasts, a couple different podcasts, and they always ask, well, to start out, what are you drinking today? And I will say it's never alcoholic, praise the Lord. But alcoholic beverages. This is a seltzer water, plain Jane from Kroger.

So you're going with the fancy Kroger brand?

Yeah, Seriously. Good for you, man.

Things must be getting worse in the economy at the resolution movement.

Hard times. Hard times.

Though the shows that do have alcoholic beverages might be shows I'd listen to be like, oh, this is what I'm drinking today.

Well, hopefully they're recording later in the morning than 9am that's true. That kind of beverage.

We are not that kind of show. Let's get into what we're gonna talk about today.

Let's do.

Okay, so Ben, as someone who' and obviously all three of us have, but someone who's been in recovery for a long time, we wanted to press into this topic with you. How does recovery change after the first year? Maybe even two years. And so we're like, for anyone who's been in recovery for more than two years, you know what we're talking about. And even for someone who is that you should probably drink tea next time so you're not coughing as much. But then anybody who's been in recovery just starting out, this is gonna be a beneficial conversation for you as well because there are changes that happen in recovery, in the journey. So I know this is going to be a helpful conversation. So Ben, just to start, why is this a thing? What is it that changes around the one year, like maybe between the one and two year mark in recovery? What changes do we see?

Yeah, and just for context, we're not talking about alcohol recovery. Although nice. Although abuse. Abusing alcohol here and there was a little bit part of my journey, but it was mainly pornography. I have a unique story in that I dabbled in different Pure desire resources. Pure desire. The book. I was leading a book study on that my first year. I was going to a seven Pillars group. What was kind of isolating a little bit. It wasn't, it wasn't run like, you know, the classic 60, 40, 20 or maybe I'm mixing up those numbers. But it was about two years of, of that. And then the third year I would say is when I was all in where I started really understanding the faster scale using the double bind. Mastering the faster. That's what I encourage people to do, Master the faster.

That's right.

Cause that really was a game changer for me. And I was being coached how to lead groups and that's when I started staying sober. And so my first year was using the tools, walking through. I was leading seven Pillars groups or a couple seven Pillars groups and then Top Gun. And then I was asked to write Living Free after that. But that first year was kind of just learning all the tools, kind of getting into understanding my trauma and my story. Sorry, that was the third year, not the first year. And then the fourth year was I had been sober for a year, but my fourth year I went through the clinical process with Dr. Ted himself. And so I'd honestly say my third year is, is closer to people's typical first year in recovery.

Yeah, I mean, what you're describing is what I was thinking about. And I think what we're hitting on today is that first year or, you know, or whatever year, like you really are all in. You're taking it serious. You're using the tools. You're going to a weekly group. That deep dive is often chaotic. It's messy. Usually if you're a married person, your relationship is in some level of crisis, or if you haven't done disclosure yet, it's probably about to be. There's just really powerful moments of, like, these aha moments. I've heard so many guys in group talk about how, like, two, three months in, they feel like this fog in their thinking lifts and they have new clarity of, like, their relationships and how they've been hurting people and the lies they've been listening to. And it's. It's really a revolutionary process. And you kind of come out the end of that year, and I do want to be mindful of how we're using the word year, that for our listeners to say for you that you might feel like the kind of things we described today happen more after six months. And other listeners might say, well, this was more year two, after two years or three. So there's not always clean dates associated with our recovery. But what we're talking about is kind of a first phase that is more messy, chaotic, intense. Often we're very motivated to change because of how bad things have gotten at home, or we've lost a job, or our reputation has been shot because others have found out something going on, and we're motivated to recover and to get through this. And very often we kind of hit the end of that year. And if we've been doing the work and the tools for so many people, their marriage is at a healthier spot. They're feeling freedom. Like Ben said, there's sobriety. There's actually traction. And it's kind of emerging into this place of. And now what. What is my new normal? How will this become not just an intense year I went through, but a new lifestyle? And what are the rules that I'm going to follow in this new lifestyle? What are the ways of living and of handling relationships that. That all might still be kind of in flux? Because that wasn't really the focus the first year. The first phase. The first phase was sobriety and stopping the habit and fixing the marriage. And then the second phase is more reestablishing a new norm. And it looks different for a Lot of people. So I think that's what we want to talk about today. And like you said, Trevor, if someone's not in it yet, it's good to kind of know these are the phases coming and to be mindful of that, even if we're in the midst of some of the chaos, maybe of the early journey.

Totally. And I think for my experience, that fog you were talking about was something that happened where I started to get a vision of who I could become. Now it wasn't just the ways that I'm stuck and working on that, but looking beyond what I've just been working at, like, how can I improve my relationships? How can I become the person God's created me to be? How can I press into the gifts that I have, the leadership that I want to have those kind of things? So for me, broadens the perspective because you're so, especially in that first group, you're so hyper focused on this one area, trying to find freedom, trying to understand why you're doing what you're doing. And then once you kind of have that first, I don't know what word I'd use, but just you have that first year of recovery under your belt, it's worked its way into your system to where you're not. Then in that kind of that navel gazing perspective, like your eyes have been lifted to see, oh, there's a lot of possibility here for me and my growth.

Yeah, I know. This might be a helpful analogy after, you know, I led groups, Top Gun and Living Free and Seven Pillars for six years. But the first year of being all in like that, I know for me and the guys I've worked with is, is like I just need to learn how to swim. It's like I've been thrown into the deep end and I just want to learn how to tread water because I feel like I'm drowning. And the drowning is the chaos that's causing chaos your behavior is causing your marriage. It's the chaos your behavior is causing your relationship with God, your view of yourself, your job, whatever, whatever the consequences are of the addiction and the behavior. And then once you start getting the tools down, you share about your secrets, you feel accepted, you start gaining sobriety. It's like you're learning how to tread water. And I know for so many people, they come into groups wanting just to stop the behavior. They think that's the only problem. And sure it is problematic. Problematic. But what guys, and what I discovered quickly is that you can go from surviving to thriving. You can go from not just abstaining from behavior, but to actual health, emotional health, spiritual health, relational health, physical health on a daily basis. And some of that, you know, by the end of the year, the first year, I would see guys start to experience. But a lot of that comes, I would say, in the next year, as you continue to learn about yourself, maybe do additional counseling, additional groups, maybe go through the genesis process or other resources. And, you know, in my. What I would call my second year with Dr. Ted, that's what we really focused on. It was I was no longer relapsing. I was no longer having sexual fantasies. I was no longer looking at porn or masturbating. And in fact, August 1st of 2023 this year be 10 years of sobriety for me. Praise God.

Yeah, man.

So, but that second year. Yeah, it sounds like we want to talk about that more. What to look forward to or what to expect.

Yeah, yeah, let's jump into that, Ben. That, as we've been describing, that first year is really marked by I got to get traction on this. I got to get sobriety. I've got to get out of the binge purge cycle. And if we're finding success. And again, we know that not everyone is that for some people, there is an elongated process of getting traction. So maybe thinking of that second phase, though, if we really find sobriety starting to take place, we've got traction we've maybe never had before. What do you feel the focus shifts to at that point as people move into a new phase of recovery?

The focus for me and what I've seen for others really focuses on the joy of health. Like, a lot of these principles. I mean, this even happens in the first month or two. Like, you go from doing all the pure desire homework and phone calls, and, like, you're dreading it, and sometimes, like, oh, this is overwhelming, but it quickly becomes a habit that leads to health. And you start feeling like, oh, I feel lighter, I feel better. I feel like I'm not just surviving. Like, this is how I'm living into the way God created me to live. And so the second year, it's a lot more of that. It's. It's. For me, it was okay. Now I'm going to start really addressing the anxiety in my life. I'm going to start addressing the trauma, doing a deeper dive, doing some brain spotting, doing some emdr.

Yeah.

I'm going to take these principles and expand them to work on other areas of my life.

Yeah.

Where God wants me to find deeper healing. I remember there was that year and in years to come, I just continued to grow in seeing myself as God sees me and getting closer to God, relearning who he is. Because, you know, the trauma I had been through, the abuse from my dad, the negative experiences with teachers, I copied and pasted that on to God. And so, you know, the first year, you're not going to get through everything.

No.

You know, healing is a process. And I'm. I guess this would be year 10. No, no, no. Year nine of true recovery in each year. It's just like, it's not burdensome. You know, it's not like, oh, I got to heal there. I got to heal there. It's like, no, no, I want to continue healing.

Right.

Because in my healing, in working through that brokenness, I connect with God better, I connect with others better. I find more and more connection and health, and it's. It's just become a lifestyle.

Yeah, Yeah. I think what you're talking about, Ben, is stuff I experienced, too, like these outlier issues that I had and seeing how those, like, impacted my holistic health, that I had this one major glaring issue in, you know, pornography and masturbation. And then I get a handle on that. I figured out why I do what I do. I've been able to stop the behavior. But then for me, shortly, then after was like, you know, I'm about 100 pounds overweight, and I'm realizing how that impacts the way I view myself, the way I operate, the way I relate to other people. And so for me, like, that started taking care of myself physically, you know, with what I eat, what I put in my body, and then thinking through, you know, all the other things, like, how am I spiritually? You know, how is thinking through this holistically? Like, how is pornography stunting my growth in all these different areas? And now that that's no longer hindering me, like, where are the areas I need growth in all of these other different domains of my life? I think that's one. The other two that I thought through was just really, you start to focus on how to restore the relationships that have been broken or damaged or injured because of my addiction. And maybe not even my addiction was like, hurting those people, giving them trauma, but it was hurting how I could relate to them or interact with them. So I think restoring relationships is another thing. But then again, the biggest thing for me was I got to finally ask myself, who do I want to become? Like, what's the vision God's given me of the type of person I could become? You know, the type of husband, the type of dad, the type of friend, the type of leader I could become. And then starting to run after that without all this weight that I was carrying before. It's like, you know, to use the cheesy analogy of chains, which I guess is a biblical analogy, so I guess it's not that cheesy, but, like, taking these chains off of me and now I can run a lot faster with a lot less weight dragging me behind so I could run after who I felt like God wanted me to be. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think one of the mistakes we can make when we're going into a group or recovery for the first time is thinking, I'm going to go through this process, and then at the end I'll be healthier and I can just go back to everything I was doing. This idea, like, I'll live the same life, but just without pornography, which, I mean, that'd be a step forward. But then we start to realize, no, it was actually the life I was living that was leading into pornography. And I can't just go back into that. That there will become new rhythms, new patterns, new routines. And I think what you said, Ben, is so important that if we think of that as like a prison sentence or something, I'm always going to have to do recovery. That perspective really will hold us back. It'll be this lifetime of drudgery. But if we see, oh, now that I'm free, it's an invitation to spend my life on health and becoming a better version of who God made me to be or becoming more fully who God made me to be. Well, that, to me, is an exciting pursuit. Right. That's what we're all called to, is this idea of sanctification, becoming more like Christ, being fully alive because I'm not held back by the chains you described, Trevor. And if we have that mindset, then it is joyful, like, this is going to be great. There's just going to be improvement in my life. And so what I see happening for many in that second phase is they begin to tell their story because they've got some traction, they've got some sobriety. They feel free to begin opening up to others outside of their inner circle, maybe telling a small group or sharing their story at church. And also that turn to say, wow, what about others? If I was trapped, I know others around me are, or maybe my kids are. I'm going to start looking for opportunities, whether it's to lead a group, co. Lead a group, just be more intentional with my Children and the kind of questions I ask, the conversations we have in the home. It moves from a focus on just my healing to say, man, I want what I'm experiencing for others as well. And I want to lean into that to some degree. And then I think what we've also said is addressing relationships and maybe outside of, you know, when we're in recovery, if we're married, the marriage relationship is a huge deal. But I think in that second phase, we start to see where we might need to go back to some parents or family members and look to restore relationships or offer apologies. We see ways that we were very self centered, centered and blinded and hurt people. And just owning some of those things, I think really becomes part of those next steps that we understand health isn't just for me. Health is to help others and to impact those relationships positively. So I think that becomes part of the focus and not say we then stop paying attention to our own recovery, but it's just we're able to include other aspects of it as well.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. That's so good.

You know, it's funny too, as you say that, Nick, those things, how we relate to other people can be a part of that recovery. Like, that's such a. That's a piece that is missing in our life before we step into it. And so there's this beautiful thing where once you start, once you're free to press in and start, you know, those relationships and being healthy in them, those are things that actually will help you as your recovery continues. All right, Ben, so let's talk about motivation. Our motivation often in the first year is crisis, right? A broken relationship, a spouse that's betrayed, a job that's been lost, a ministry that's been lost, something like that, that's this huge motivator. But after you get into, after that first year, you know, Lord willing, crisis will subside. It will die down as you're getting healthy, as you're making these restorative steps toward health. How does motivation change there? Like what? Like how should it change? Because as the motivation of crisis dies down, it's like, well, I don't have the same motivation that I had before, so how does it change? And then how do we make sure we're identifying what is really motivating? Years two, three, four and beyond.

One of the things I've seen and that we talk about with the resolution movement in my book, Free to Thrive, is that there's two primary motivators on a psychological level, on a biblical level that we see Biblically, and that is either pain or pleasure. Pain of the consequences, pain of this has got to stop. It's hurting myself, it's hurting others, which you just mentioned. But then what we hope happens is this. We're motivated by pleasure, we're motivated by joy, we're motivated by life can be better. And I think of Jesus, you know, the joy set before, the joy set before him, he endured the cross. There's different things like that. We see in scripture that a greater joy, a greater happiness or peace or what life could look like. And I would add to that obedience to God. But you know, all of God's commandments to us are to provide for us, they're to protect us, they're for our pleasure, they're for our joy. So as we continue to step into healing and recovery, the second year, as we keep moving towards health, thinking about how is my life actually going to look like in six months if I keep doing this? How are my relationships going to look in six months if I keep doing this? And I think that's one of the hard themes when you're struggling with anything is man, I'm trying to do the work. Things are kind of getting better, but you can get lost in the day to day. You know, if, if you started out in the new year, going to the gym and wanting to lose £50 and you get on the scale a week later and you're like, wow, I've lost five. This is going to take forever. It could be easy, you know, to give up, but if you have milestones along the way. Okay, I'm just, I'm not going to say £50, but I'm going to say £5.

Yeah.

And then when I do that, another £5, and then another £5, and, and I think short goals that are sustainable to reach, that bring us joy and health. Those are some things that have worked really well in my own life.

Yeah. Sometimes I think we realize that inadvertently we had this goal that was perfection. Right. That when I recover and I'm holy and pure, I'm going to have no struggles, no problems. And we don't realize that that view of our life is unrealistic and not rooted in being a human being. And so I love what you said of like, what are those next steps, what God's calling me to? And I, I think about how in the seven pillars of freedom, you know, pillar seven, lesson four, Ted Roberts really introduces having that vision for a future, that vision for how God wants to use me. What, what is ahead of me that now is motivating me. So it's not what I'm running from, my past and my issues and struggles, it's what am I running for and towards.

Right.

I think about how Jay Stringer, in his book writes that men who lacked purpose were seven times more likely to escalate their porn use. And so I would think that the reverse of that is also true, that men who have a sense of purpose are. And I don't know what the percentage would be, but are much more likely to stay out of porn use or other debilitating behaviors because they're like, no, there's something that matters more. And another way I've heard it said, Ben, you said the pain and pleasure. I've heard someone say it as pain and beauty, that we're either motivated by avoiding pain or something beautiful. This picture of that's the life I want, and I'm running after that now. And I think that's where we want our motives to switch over to because that is sustainable for a lifetime.

Yeah. And the thing about going through group, going through recovery, whether it's pure desire, resources or therapy or some other form of resource that really helps you apply therapeutic practices. Right. To apply biblical truth. What I've seen is you can take these tools and apply them to other areas of your life. You now have this new. I love the visual of Batman's utility belt. You have this new utility belt with all of these gadgets you can use to help you process life and improve in all these other areas. And what I love is that there's. Because, Nick, what you're talking about, this idea of where we're going, it creates a lot more agency that I have in who I want to become in the future. I want to have in the relation, the type of relationships I want to have, the type of work I want to do. You're smiling. Did I say something funny?

I was just going to say I had no idea you liked that metaphor. That's the first time I've ever heard that.

Well, if. Yeah, everyone else in the world who knows me knows Batman's my favorite superhero. And if you don't think he's a superhero, you're wrong.

I would like to ask a listener to send in how many podcasts they've heard Trevor mention Batman's utility belt because I wonder what the number is.

I could think of a couple people that would send something, but no, that idea of I now have the ability to find health in other areas, and that's what's cool, is that in some Ways it can feel like whack a mole, but it's not. It's. I've gotten health in this area and I have things in place to sustain it. But now I can look at these other areas of my life that I have unhealth in. I start to see how those things were connected to my unwanted sexual behavior. But what's awesome is I can use those tools now to help me in that area. And that then really just helps us become a holistic healthy person. And so that's what I see and what I've experienced in the motivation changing is it's not just looking at what I need to stop doing. It's starting to focus on what am I doing, what can I do to become a healthy person.

Yep, that's it.

Yeah, the skills are transferable to so many areas of life. And yeah, one of the things we wanted to lean into, particularly Ben, and for your perspective on, I think for the married person, that ongoing motive of I want to have a good marriage, I don't want to go back to those behaviors because of how it damaged my spouse. That it's kind of an always present accountability factor, if you will, that like I've got this other person that I've committed to and they know the story now and we don't want to go backwards. What would you say though, to the single person and in your experience when you don't have kind of that ever present person that you're trying to stay healthy for, what have you found? Are those ongoing motivators to stay healthy, to be clean and not listen to What I think a lot of single people struggle with is like, well, who really cares? I'm not married. It's not hurting anyone. And maybe having that strong draw to go backwards after some initial recovery, how do you avoid that?

I've gone through three sets of motivations throughout the years. The first year in recovery was really that I kind of shamed myself into staying sober. And I, you know, because I didn't want to admit to having a relapse. I didn't want to feel that shame. And yeah, and I knew people wouldn't judge me, but it was going to be embarrassing for me. And so I kind of shamed myself and just white knuckled for a while. And that was a primary motivation. And then it started to switch in the second year when I was going through recovery with Dr. Ted, it really started to switch to that pleasure, that future joy, that what I wanted and this would have been eight years ago and I was very focused back then on dating and trying to get married. And so a primary motivation was, I want to get married. I don't want to bring this into my marriage. I want to have a healthy marriage, you know, healthy kids. And also, I want to honor God. And then just over time, realizing how much the church has made an idol out of marriage and how singleness and marriage are both equally glorious callings. And, you know, Jesus was single, Paul was single. Some people are called or feel called or are called or feel called. I don't really know how it works, but to lifelong celibacy, and we'll be single forever, and that's a glorious calling. And, you know, that could be my calling. And so in this, I think it's been like the past four or five years, I've really transitioned into that third motivation. I do want to get married, however. Marriage, a future marriage, a future family, yeah, that would be great. And that motivates me to stay, you know, healthy and sober. But also, if I never get married, one of the big motivations is my relationship with God and the closeness and intimacy I have there. It's the relationships with other people. It's not. Not feeling like I have to hide who I am or something I've done, but having a lifestyle of no secrets. And because, you know, when I was relapsing, there was just nothing made me feel as bad in my life and as shameful as pornography. And so I would feel like I had. It would just lead me into depression. I would feel so shameful, I'd want to isolate. It was just such a. Yeah, it just was ruining my life. And so in my connection with God and other people and. And now leading a global ministry and writing and all of that, I. You know, I don't expect myself to be perfect, but helping others is really a big motivator. Come, follow. You know, as Paul said, follow me as I follow Jesus. Yeah, I want them to look to Jesus a lot more than me. But I love, especially these days on TikTok, on Instagram, I get messages every day from teenagers, from people, from young adults asking, how do I quit porn? And I get to share my journey with them. I get to point them to resources and devotionals I've developed in podcast episodes. And so those are the three shifts I've seen in my own life that have really been sustainable as far as motivations go.

Yeah. Yeah. And I would just say this, like, we want you to get married, too, and we're excited to have you on talking about marriage stuff, you know, What I mean, down the road, so. And honestly, Ben, we appreciate your willingness to continue to talk about the topic and to even press into that. I know sometimes that could be a challenging topic, especially if you're single, wanting to be married. And so just appreciate your vulnerability there.

Yeah.

And I was gonna say, I appreciate how you named that, Ben. If marriage, future marriage is your only motivation, I mean, that's good and healthy, but I think there are a lot of men in particular that go through recovery with this thought of, well, if I get healthy, then God will be pleased with me and he will lead me into marriage. And so I think as they're getting to year two and three, they're like, all right, Lord, here I am. I did the work, I'm doing better, and where's the girl? Right. And if that doesn't happen, and it might happen for some, but if it doesn't happen, I think there can become disillusionment of like, well, God, I did all this. You're letting me down. And maybe not realizing that wasn't the true purpose for this. It was for your health, for your wellbeing. And if God has marriage in your future, that will happen when it happens. But I do think that danger is there if it doesn't happen in the way we thought we might feel like, well, what was the point of all this? And so I think there is the need to keep progressing. Say, yeah, that's not a bad motive. It's good to be. I want to be clean and pure for my future spouse if that happens. But then also beyond that, if that doesn't happen, I can still be motivated. I can still pursue God's best for my life and not just make it contingent on, well, I did this, and now God will bring me that.

Yeah. And that's again, to Ben's point that you made man that, like, the marriage is so heightened in the church when that saying that the relationships you have with your friends and the relationships you have at church aren't as important. And that's not true. Those relationships are just as important. Those are relationships you can still be serving and other oriented and loving and encouraging and can sharpen you as you sharpen them. So, yeah, I feel like it makes you. It makes you a blessing to other people ultimately. I mean, I think there are other reasons I wrote down that just don't seem to be important in this conversation, but I just feel like that's something that as you grow and as you change the level of impact you have in the community of people around you is significant. And I think we too often underscore the amount of influence we actually have. And so to be able to be single and say, no, no, no, like, I'm someone who can influence the culture around me and my health is a huge part about that. Like a part to that. I think that's huge and we should focus on that, especially if we're single in recovery.

Yeah. To add one more thing, I continue in the past five, four or five years with that third motivation shifting from oh, I want to get married one day to that's not promise, that's not a reward for sobriety or healing. There's greater biblical motivations. I think of Psalm 16, where it says, you make known to me the path of life and all God's commandments, his design for our health. The reason he wants us to go through recovery to be sober minded, not just from pornography, not just sober from pornography, but so many other things, is that he's come to bring us abundant life. And that's primarily experienced in relationship with God's self and others. And so our primary motivation, whatever, we've, however, we've been influenced by the church and this idea of marriage needs to shift to, I want to honor God, I want a better relationship with God, I want a better relationship with myself. I want a better relationship with other people to truly follow Jesus, take up my cross, and to flourish relationally here and now. And once you start to experience that, yeah, like, I wouldn't trade what I have now for pornography any day. I know pornography releases more dopamine in your brain and whatever, but the sustainability and pleasure of each day living in health and growing and connecting with God and others and serving others and seeing people come to Jesus and seeing them set free from porn, it's just here and now.

Yeah.

You can't trade the benefits to your life of quitting porn, not to mention all the, you know, all the secular research coming out and neuroscientific research about porn damaging your brain and affecting your abilities to perform in sports and all those kind of things. It's just there's so many reasons, so many jobs and something better.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So good. So let's look at, and this is probably more the proactive stuff. In year two, three, four of recovery is self care. What does self care look like after year one? And what kind of significance have you seen in your journey that self care has?

What's cool is I just, I think I discovered the term self care through pure desire years ago. And now it's become really popular and people are like, oh, it's about treating yourself and taking bubble baths and you know, parks and Rec.

Treat yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Eating chocolate covered strawberries and lighting candles and bath bombs and hey, I am into those things. But yeah, I, that's, you know, what culture might, might say. But there is a biblical precedent for, you know, biblical self care. And what I've come to realize is that biblical self care is creating a life you don't have to regularly escape from. It's creating a life you regularly don't have to escape from. And so that, that doesn't mean like, oh, just, you know, once a week I'll go get a massage or I'll go on vacation, you know, once or twice a year. And that's my self care. No, no, no. It's about habits, you know, rhythms. It's about each day, each week, things you do to care for your spiritual health, your physical health, your mental health. And so for me there's, there's a lot that have just become part of my life and I look forward to them. One has been weekly Sabbath where I stop completely for 24 hours, where I don't do any work, where I try not to even do anything that feels like work. So you know, when I started doing this, I wasn't even showering. It was, it was pretty out of hand. You know, it wasn't, you don't want to be around me on my Sabbath. But things like not doing the dishes, just getting takeout, pleasure stacking, which is having a, can I say this? A cigar, having a beer, connecting with God, going to church, hanging out with friends, meditation, getting takeout. It's just all the, you know, good things and spending the day with God and other people, just truly taking a break. It's like a vacation. Or like Christmas. Yeah, more so like Christmas once a week and celebrating, reflecting on the past week. Another one has been living a life of no secrets. Where I'm committed to for the rest of my life, having somebody or a couple people who know everything about me, my sin, the things that I might want to hide, the struggles, the emotional struggles, how I've been doing what I'm wrestling with, all of those things. Another thing that has been super important is slowing down and cutting back and for me, trying to get to the point where I don't hit, where I'm not stressed, where I don't hit the stress point any day of the week, which is really hard to do because there's so many things that can cause Stress. But if I can schedule my time, schedule the meeting, schedule the work, have breaks in between, leave early, plan for traffic, all these kind of things where I can try to stay in restoration on the faster scale and not like that guy who's new to recovery who's like, I've been in restoration all week. Yeah, I looked at porn, but I was in restoration. What? No, you weren't, bro.

You're missing the point.

Yeah.

Yes, yeah, exactly. But this slowing down, there's things that are so good for my, let's say mental health and my mind. It's hobbies, it's going fishing with a friend, it's. I just got a Super 73e bike, so I'm crushing that thing around the. The neighborhood. It goes 30 miles per hour just getting out there. Suburban exploring and physical health. The way I eat, eating low carb, keeping 100 pounds that I've lost because I gained 100 pounds and then because of a food addiction, lost the hundred pounds. Keeping that weight off, doing stretches morning and night. There's just so many things that help me stay. I'm not even sure I would call it self care. It is biblical self care and caring for myself. But it's ultimately habits and things that are helpful that help me feel better mentally, that help me connect with God better, that help me connect with other others better.

Yeah, yeah. As I think about the tools we use at Pure Desire, you know, it's that outer circle of the three circle tool. What do I do instead that brings a sense of fulfillment, belonging, connection, joy, fun. Because if I don't have that well defined, I'm really in danger. That if my recovery is just, oh, I haven't looked at porn. I've got really strong guardrails, I'm in a good place. That may work most of the time, but sooner or later, you're gonna hit a speed bump, you're gonna go through something hard at work, you're gonna, you know, feel unfairly accused of something by your spouse, you're gonna have a death in the family, you maybe have a career crisis. And in those moments, if all we're relying on is guardrails and avoidance, those aren't enough. Typically when we really need something to deal with hard things. But if we have a rhythm of margin in our life, Sabbath things we're doing for physical rejuvenation, fun things we do, friends we connect with, well, that's what sustains us in those speed bumps. And so I would just encourage anyone listening if you realize you haven't focused on that much because you're like, that's just kind of a nice thing. Is it really that big of a deal? When you go through a hard season, those things become critical and the time to develop them is now. And so lean into that. And I just think so much what you said there, Ben, is spot on. It's learning this way of life that I don't need to run to those other things that were unhealthy and damaging because I have so many other things I've learned to use instead. And they're better by far, even if they don't have the immediate dopamine hit. I've seen the long term payoff. I've seen the good. And so I run to those things that really maintain my health.

Yeah, I think of self care a lot. Like, I've heard spiritual disciplines talked about that it's something that doing the spiritual discipline is not the main purpose. The main purpose is that spiritual discipline is equipping you to manage life in a healthy, biblical, God honoring way. And I think the same thing is true about self care, that these are not like reactive things. Like, you know, I think Ben, you were kind of alluding to this, like something really stressful happens is like, okay, I just need to go get takeout and watch a movie and veg. That'll be my self care. Like, self care is not just a reactive thing. It is a proactive thing. I know that if I journal every day, I'm gonna have space to process what happened the day before. If I'm reading scripture, when something happens and I'm tempted to believe a lie later that day, I can think back to what I already did that morning. Things like that, that it's not just this reactive, but it's things I can put in place that when the stress. I was just reading first Peter this morning, like, it's gonna happen. Suffering is gonna happen. Like it's gonna be for a short time, but it's necessary. It's gonna be a part of your life that when those things happen, you're prepared for it. You have equipped yourself with emotional health, spiritual health, sexual health, these tools, these perspectives, these things, you know, you can go to day in and day out that help you manage those things when they come. So I think that's the goal of self care is not just a reactive thing, but proactive.

Yeah, yeah. Let me, let me add this, feel the need to say this for somebody watching or listening, because it's been so helpful in my own life. But if you're a person who deals with rumination, whether it's dwelling on the past, anxiety, constantly trying to feel like you're. You're trying to outrun the temptation and the triggers in your life that can be so consuming for your mind and exhausting. And, you know, doing that continues as I have. Doing that continues to lead to fixed neurological pathways, and it gets you more and more stuck. Breaking that up with certain things has been so helpful for me. So when I do 10 minutes of stretches in the morning and at night, the stretches are almost painful because I'm constantly doing them, like stretching further and further with, you know, my. I don't know how to explain it, but it's. It's so hard to focus on anything else because there's a slight bit of pain and I hate pain, you know, but it's like a level 2 out of a 10 on the stretch. And it's like I just, ah, this sigh of relief when I'm done. But doing something like that, going to the gym, running, going fishing, just moving your body, getting out there out of your head and into your body, that breaks up the rumination for a little bit each day. And if you keep doing that, it helps more and more so that you're not constantly in your head.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, so good. So as we've talked about, Ben, for a lot of people in their first year, there is kind of an intensity to the journey. They might be doing counseling, they're in group, they're, you know, making lots of phone calls. And there can be a shift for some people, like, okay, I'm not in counseling anymore. Maybe they've even stepped out of a weekly group. Although I'd suggest second year, you probably still need to be in group. But. But for some people, they're moving away from those things for different reasons. So if, if there's not that same intensity of counseling and group and that routine, what are other avenues that you've seen help people maintain sexual health?

Challenging a friend who's in your area or in your church to be, you know, the, the person that you have a life of no secrets with. I've seen people do that. They either meet up once a week or just throughout the week, they're texting one another. Seen that work really well. I've seen friends finish a Seven Pillars group and then with some of their close friends or Life of no Secret friends, pick up a book like Jay Stringer's book Unwanted or Free to Thrive or Emotionally Healthy spirituality. Doing that. The main thing is after finishing the first Year taking the initiative to keep something going, whether it's with one other person, two other people. It doesn't have to be heavily structured, heavily on homework, but just to keep some kind of practice of regularly meeting together, going and connecting with people really helps. I know for me, so much of my first year or two was trying to, I mean, stopping the behavior, getting healthy. But then I realized I need to relearn what God's design for sex is all about and sexual intimacy. And so it was listening to podcasts, it was reason, reading books, it was getting rid of the sexual shame that I had, or this idea that, you know, sex is primarily about physical pleasure and learning more and more about why God designed it and kind of changing the way over time that I thought about. Yeah, so a renewed vision about sex and a renewed vision about singleness, those things were really helpful to continue to learn and grow in.

Yeah, I know for me and my story, this is where spiritual disciplines became a huge piece of trying to establish habits and rhythms in my life that I do on a daily and weekly basis that help me move forward toward growth, growth in the Lord, growth relationally, obviously mental, physical, sexual health. But I think that for me, I always need a track to run on, to grow, some direction to run, some thing to work on. And so for me, reading books, going through, like, one thing for this year for me is going through a resource that helps you develop a rule of life. So something that maybe is an area of life I want more structure in. And so I like daily and weekly am committing myself to these habits, these things. And you know, I love what you said, Ben. The idea of having those no secret type of relationships is make sure that you're in community. That is still a huge piece that you're in a trusted community that you see, I mean, preferably on a weekly basis, whether that's a community group at your church or just the community that you have at your church at the Sunday gatherings. But just having a circle of people that you're consistently pouring into, getting feedback from, doing life alongside, I feel like that's the one thing that pornography steals from so many people, is true community. And the gift that you get in recovery is being able to be your real, true self. And so finding people to be in relationship and be that true self, I think is also big.

Yeah, yeah.

We use the phrase a lot at pure desire of paying it forward. And I've seen that for so many people in groups, it's like as you establish sobriety and health and momentum, it's kind of like hitting a wall or a real decision point that I've got to decide, is this ultimately about me and my own good or is this journey ultimately about God and others? Because at that juncture point or hitting that wall, I've seen group members that thrive in selfish ways. They lose the weight and they become the workout warrior and they get this new physique or they get a better job. I mean, they're kind of clear of a lot of this clutter that's been in their life and they just use it on themselves. And I'm not saying it's bad to work out and lose weight. Don't hear that. But if that's the only goal, it still is kind of a selfish endeavor about a better me. And that's not what God made you for. God made you for himself and for others. And there is so much more fulfillment in moving that way. To ask the question, God, how is this story in my life really to be a part of helping others and the mission you have for me in this world? And so I think in that, that next phase, it's really asking that question, God, who is this for? And if it's for me, it's ultimately not going to be the healing journey that God wants it to be for you. And so hopefully that means at some point helping lead a group, telling your story, pouring into your kids, serving in your community, it's going to that bigger perspective. Because I think without that, we will subtly over time, re enter into other forms of addiction that are just more socially acceptable if it's all about us. And so I've seen that happen. It would just warn guard against keeping it just to be about your own recovery and look instead to say, how can I pay it forward? Because I really believe that's part of our full healing and recovery.

Absolutely. Okay, so. And this is for really all of us to help people flesh this out a little bit better. But Ben, for you specifically, what tools have you found to be most important during the like this new phase of recovery? After year one, when you start looking towards sustaining this for the long haul, what tools do you think are most important for that?

I think the genesis process is great. I know I walk through that in my counseling year with, with Dr. Ted, but not all groups go through that. Yeah, that's a great place to start because it, it talks about multiple behaviors and anger and, and whatnot. Just deeper dive things like emotionally healthy spirituality. I don't want to toot my own horn, but free to thrive, like free to Thrive, our book that Josh and I wrote. Yep. We wanted, that's why we, we wrote it because it's about how nothing in our life is random. All the things our hurts, our struggles, you know, the hindrances in life, when we question them, when we figure out what they're about, they actually can lead to a flourishing life. And so there are similar principles. If you've been in a Pure Desire group, you may find similar ideas and principles because it's trauma informed and you know, I wrote it and you know, have been through recovery. I think there depending on your stage of life. Like I've seen people pay this forward. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but don't think that the only way to pay this forward is to lead a seven pillars group or a betrayal and beyond group or a living free group or, you know, there are so many ways God wants to use you. I think of one of my friends who's got several kids and he went through a Pure Desire counseling year and now, you know, he just took his kids through good pictures, bad pictures, junior, and they're, they're three and four years old. And so I can't recommend that book enough. Pay it forward to your kids. Help porn proof your kids and help them. Another thing could be starting, just starting the conversation. Maybe nobody in your church or small group talks about porn or sex. And maybe having conversations with people. Maybe when it comes up sharing your story. That's what I, that's what I always try and do because it comes up all the time like porn is a struggle and nobody seems to be able to find freedom from it. Well, God has blessed Pure Desire. God has revealed proven principles and answers. And so many of us have benefited from God's work at Pure Desire and our work walking in Freedom. And when that comes up, mention it. Share your story. Take, Take a step of faith. Some people launch their own ministries. You know, some people start speaking on the topics or writing on the topics.

Sure.

Some people share their story on, on social media, whether it's a video or a blog. There are so many ways you can pay this forward and continue. And I think that, I know for me that after the second year, talking about this regularly helped motivate me to stay sober. Yeah, it's like, I don't want to give up on the healing I've experienced and the freedom I've been walking in. I want to keep running this race, walking in freedom, helping other people. And then as the years go by, how cool is it to say, oh, August 1st, by God's grace is 10 years walking in freedom from porn and masturbation. And I know if God can do it in my life, he can do it in your life.

Sure.

Yeah. I just say yes and amen to all those things. All good ideas. And I think it does look different in some degree for every person, although there's similarities. And we're glad to have you toot your horn, Ben, and promote your works because we're big fans. What comes to mind for me is just continuing to use those tools of the faster scale, master the faster and then keep using it as just kind of that regular check in. I think even in seasons of my life where I haven't been in a weekly group, I'm still on a weekly basis thinking through where am I at, what's my low point? And trying to define for me ticked off as a new relapse in terms of if I'm. If I realize I'm really starting to enter into anger and just wanting to run away or give up. Like, okay, I'm already needing to take some steps, reach out. And you're not waiting for it to go further than that. I think that's a tool that could serve you the rest of your life because of that emotional awareness and just continuing to update your three circles of maybe that inner circle doesn't change because we know where we're committed not to going anymore. But I think our middle circle changes a lot as the seasons change. What do we need? What's now more important that we're attentive to and have healthy guardrails around and what does that outer circle of health and joy and freedom look like? Because if we have the same three circles tool from 10 years ago, it's probably not serving us well anymore. Maybe like I said, that inner circle might be the same, but the other two, if we read through, we'd honestly be like this doesn't really apply anymore. And so as your phases of life change, so does your fat. Your three circles. And I just think those are two things that if every human being was using them, man, we'd be in a better world because we'd have people that were self aware and being proactive about their health and that's just good for all of us. So those are the two that I'd recommend.

Yeah, just to round it out, I would say journaling is one that's been super helpful, a way to get your thoughts out and writing does some stuff to your brain that really benefits it. But then also over the last year, therapy has been Another huge tool for me. I'm not in crisis or still having to work as hard as I did at the beginning of recovery to stay healthy. But there are other areas that I'm able to tap into as well. So those are two other ones I'd recommend.

Yeah. And the double bind. I'll tell you, I use the faster scale on double bind. Ten years out, almost every single day. Because when you truly understand the double bind, okay, I'm feeling depressed. I'm feeling anxious. Why? And what's the lie? I'm believing that's the easier choice. And then the harder choice, what's the truth? What's the prophetic promise? What's the action I can take to get out of this? Maybe try to get a glimpse of God's perspective. What promises does he remind you of? I'll tell you, when I go through bouts of depression. It happens a few times a year these days rather than every day like before. The double bind is what God uses to get me out of depression.

That's really cool.

Yeah, man. Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah. So, Ben, this has been awesome, as always. We love having you as a guest. Leave our listeners with what would kind of be your final advice in terms of how do we continue in recovery? To not stall out, but to have momentum for a lifetime. What would you say or an idea or a key principle you want to leave people with?

I think of one of my friends right now who's in the pure desire process. And, you know, he was going from relapsing once a week or a couple times a week and getting into a pure desire group. And then the idea of staying sober the rest of your life can be so daunting. What I encouraged him with is how I would encourage myself and whoever's listening, no matter what you're going through, take it one day at a time.

Yeah.

It's so simple, but it's so true. Because God has given you grace for today. If you start thinking about, oh, I gotta go the rest of my life without looking at porn, that's gonna be hard. That's gonna be hard. Just like if you start going to the gym and you're like, I gotta go to the gym every day the rest of my life, you're probably gonna give up. But if you just say no today, okay, one week, I'm not gonna look at porn for one week. I'm gonna stay connected to others. Then the next week comes and you commit to it again. That has helped me so much, you know, as I hit, you know, one Year of sobriety, it was like, okay, now let me go for two. And then it was three, and then it was five, and then now it's 10. Oh, I can't wait to hit 10. And so different goals like that. Remembering that God has grace for what you're going through today, he says, don't worry about tomorrow because he's going to show up tomorrow. He's going to give you the grace and resources you need and support you need. So focus on today. And I think that will be real take. That will take off the burdens that will really bring peace to your life as you walk with God through it.

Yeah. You know, for me, being. I think it's year eight of recovery. For me, it's just always having something to work on. Like some. Some area of my life, I'm trying to bring improvement. Like right now, a lot of it is my relationship with my wife, prioritizing that time. Other aspect is my relationship with my oldest. We. We really like butt heads, all that. He's a mini me. And so I, of course, I. I don't. If I don't like myself sometimes it's hard to like my mini me. But like, I think it's. It's those things that I'm trying to. I'm taking steps. I'm being, you know, intentional and proactive in ways to improve that. And so I think that that's just something is like, don't adopt this graduation mindset. Like, oh, I'm free from porn. Great. Okay, now I can just coast. It's something that I'm always looking forward. What's something I can improve upon in life? And I think that that's just been helpful for me.

I think about the brain science that says we will subconsciously move in the direction of our vision or our dreams. And I think when we were trapped in this pattern, we're trapped in addiction. We might not have called it a dream, but we lived with this fear of one day it's all going to come crashing down. My struggle is going to get found out. It's going to end my marriage, ruin my career. And I think that's some of the whispers of Satan that wants to keep people like, yep, that's your future. So don't risk, don't try, don't expose your truth. And it keeps us trapped. But in this recovery zone, in this new health, it's that vision of, I'm becoming the man God made me to be. I'm going to be a healthy spouse. I'm going to be a Healthy parent for my kids. I'm going to, I'm going to have a voice that helps others in this world. And if we continue to keep that vision, that dream, that God given dream in front of us, there's something in our brain that just cooperates with it. We subconsciously will make decisions that honor that vision. So I would encourage you if you haven't. Like this is one of the exercises in an appendix in the seven pillars. I've just done it with my group. It's like my God given dream right now is. And you answer it. And if you haven't done something like that lately in a journal, in a quiet time with God, just say, what am I dreaming of? Because the more you can clarify and come back to that God sized vision for your life, you'll just keep heading in that direction. Because the more you're captured by that, you want to live it out. So I think what I've heard us say, which I think is cool, it's kind of the metaphor of driving. You both need to pay attention to the road right in front of you. Like one day at a time. What's the project I'm working on? What am I doing now? And I need to know where I'm going. If I don't have one or the other, it's pointless to be in the car because I'll either crash without paying attention to where I'm at or if I only pay attention to right now, what road I'm on, but I don't know where I'm going, I'll just keep driving in circles. So those two pieces I think are absolutely crucial and I think it's a great way to kind of wrap up this conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so true that recovery is more than just establishing sobriety and diminishing crisis in your life. It's about creating lifelong health, sexual health, specifically in the area that we're talking about. And you know, it's clear just from the conversation today that the habits and the patterns we put in place right now are going to help us become that healthier version of us. That's how we sustain health as we put things in place that are going to continue to move us in the direction that God has for us and that we want for us in our relationships. Ben. Honestly, dude, and I know I say this every time, but I really do mean it. Like we love our time with you. Even your like new sexy background that you have plug to go watch the YouTube video, but that's right.

And the hat.

Yeah. Oh, that's right.

Got to get me one of your hats.

Where can people. If people watch this, where can people get the Suicide Stops With Me hat? Where can they get that?

Resolutionmovement.org, the store. We've got Suicide Stops with Me hats. We've got it's okay to Love Jesus and have a therapist shirt.

Have that shirt.

We've got Mental Health Matters shirts.

Okay. And just because Nick and I plugged those, you should send us free ones. But anyways, we really do. We love you. We love what you're doing at Resolution. And thanks for your time today, man.

Yeah, I love you guys. Thanks so much.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and begin the healing journey today. If this podcast is helpful on your journey, please share it with others. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast podcast. Drop us a review. It helps other people find the podcast. You also, as I already said, check out this episode on YouTube. Each week, we're putting out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.