301 - The 4 People You Need In Recovery

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 301 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Help me, help me. I'm all out of time. And ways to say goodbye.

Not just singing, but, like vocally doing the guitar. I have never heard that before.

That is.

How long does that.

50 Ways to say Goodbye by Train.

Train.

Train, yeah.

Like drops a Jupiter train.

Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

They're talented.

Yeah. Really fun. It's kind of got like that Mexican mariachi band sound to it. Some of the songs. Just this one especially. And my kids really pop this one. Yeah, that was my little mariachi guitar violin thing happening there. Because that song is all about, like, he's not gonna say that he got left. He's gonna say his girlfriend died. So it's really funny because it's all these ways that she, like, she went down in an airplane, you know, died in quicksand. But he's running out of excuses. So it's. Yeah, just kind of a funny love song. I think it's a love song. I don't know.

Well, either way, I'm interested to see how you tie it in. We had our clinical director, Tyler Chinson on and we talked through the four different people we need, the four different roles that we need in recovery.

Yes. And just like in the song by Train, at many times when we feel alone, that's just our cry. We don't know how to handle with it. And so we're saying, help me, help me. Where do I turn with this pain? The things I don't understand? And in the song, the guy doesn't know how to explain that he's been broken up with. But in our story, I think it's just looking at what do I need? And when I'm at the front end of recovery or I've maybe been just kind of in that mode of I'm going to fix this myself. It's too embarrassing or messy or awkward or whatever to share with other people. We get to a point of saying, help me, I need help. But from who? And. And so we might think, oh, well, I just go to a counselor or I should go tell my pastor. And I think the goal, and that can be a good starting point. I always say to people like, where do you start? Who's the safest person in your world? And start there and tell them. And then from that conversation, figure out what's next. But today's episode, I think, fills out that conversation to say, what are kind of the roles you need as you're working towards lasting change? And so I think for many of our listeners, there'll be some of these roles. They're like, yep, check the box. Got that. Nailed it. And some other roles or aspects we might think through of. Have I really embraced that? Have I really been open to that person in my recovery journey? So I hope everybody gets something out of it. And the other side of it is most of us are providing this role for someone else. And I think we can be encouraged today to consider, how am I a support to others as God leads me into the lives of others to be a part of their recovery journey?

Totally. You know, one of the places and the reason why we'll promote it is because this is an area, something that we offer, where you can meet all four of these people, and that is in our online groups. And for someone who maybe doesn't know much about pure desire or is just starting the recovery journey, doesn't really know what to do, what would we tell them or encourage them to think about when it comes to our online groups?

Yeah, I've told people many times, if you have a group meeting locally that you can join, you should join it.

Yeah.

But the truth is, most people, like, look at our map or they go to their church's website, and there aren't groups. They're in many areas of the country, few and far between, or the only church that has them are on the one night of the week that's your date night, or you work, and it's just not possible to find a group around you. And that's exactly why we have provided a system of online groups so that people from wherever they live, in whatever time zone they're in, in whatever country they're joining from, if they have reliable Internet access, they can be in a weekly recovery group with other people who are in the same place of saying, this is what I need. I'm here for it. And one of the advantages we've found for these online groups, because we have trained and vetted the leaders, we pay the leaders, which means the group experience does have a cost to it. And so for some people, that's a drawback if finances are tight. But we find for most people, it's manageable. What it does mean is just like when you're in a college course, the people who are there, want to be there, have paid to be there, They've invested in the process. And there's a level of engagement that we've just found is really significant. And so if you're in that place of saying, I need community, I need people around me, I've got to have a group. As we've said so often on this podcast, you can't do this alone. That is what our online group system is for and would really encourage you. Don't wait. I mean, start now. There's never gonna be a better time to start your recovery journey than right now.

Absolutely. So for more info or to see what groups are available, dates, times, what leader, you can go to PureDesire.org groups all right, couple more things. Subscribe to the podcast. And just a reminder. I know, and I, like, say it at the end of the episode too. I'll remind you, watch this on YouTube. It's fun. I'm telling you, Tyler's got a nice shirt on. He normally has a nice shirt on.

You know, I did hear from a viewer that started watching on YouTube. They said that our desks look a little bit like a courtroom. And I never thought about that. So.

So you want to get a gavel or.

Yeah, well, or it's like, do we need to dress up? I think it's the height and wood that feels courtish. I was just thinking, well, what could make our desks look a little less courtroom?

Also, what trauma does that person have in the courtroom?

Well, you know, I didn't go too deep into that, but clearly the backdrop is not what you would see in a courtroom.

But okay, here's a promise.

Now if you haven't seen it, you have to go on YouTube to see what I'm talking about.

That is true. And if there are other people that feel this way, watch me, like, swindle, swindle this a little bit, if that's how you feel. If you would like to send a little bit of cash to us and say, hey, I want you to dress up the podcast studio, we'd be happy to do that. We're trying to make. I mean, if you look on YouTube, we now have a sign up there, a nice fancy lit up sign. Never stop being healthy. We have lights on the sides, we have sound, paneling. There's so many reasons, visual reasons, to watch this on YouTube. We spent way more time on that part than I thought. Also, follow us on social media ear desirepdmi. And then with that, here is our conversation with Tyler Chinson on the four people you need in recovery. Tyler, welcome back, man. I'm glad to have You. We're already laughing mostly about what you ate for breakfast, but thanks for being back, man, with us at the podcast, Trevor.

I always enjoy it. Thanks for the invite.

Yeah, man. Okay, so you and I, Tyler, talked about this idea, and it was just kind of a hairbrained idea I threw out to you, and you're our clinical director, so I was like, if anybody's gonna know this, it would be you. But just, are there a certain number of roles or types of people that we need in our life during the recovery process to make it the most effective that it can be? And you gave me some suggestions. And so we kind of morphed that a little bit, tweaked the language, but we're really gonna look at those four people that we need in recovery. And again, it's for a successful recovery role. And I'll even remind us throughout this episode that you don't need all four of these people at the exact same time in every single season of recovery. But these are really important, stapled roles that we need on the recovery journey. So let's just jump in. The first of the four is what we would call just a group leader, which to some people who've been in group, they know exactly what we're talking about and the importance. But maybe for some of us, we don't understand that. So why is the group leader such an important person to have when in our recovery journey?

Trevor, it is critical to have a guide in this journey because there's a certain destination that we would like to arrive at eventually. But if we don't have a guide GPS system, that person, it's going to be difficult. We'll be bumping around because oftentimes sex addiction and betrayal trauma recovery is unfamiliar territory. It's like, where do I start? How do I get there? So to have someone who is familiar with that territory and the path forward is exceedingly helpful. If I could provide an example, I had a trip back to the east coast fairly recently, and I had an extra day. I was in New Jersey, thought, check out New York City. And there were. There are so many things to see, so much to do in New York. But I'm not going to wrap all this out on my own in six hours. And so I hired a guide, and that guide had been down those routes hundreds of times.

Yeah.

Seeing the Times Square, Empire State Building, 911 Memorial Wall St. Was able to do all of those things. Statue of Liberty in six hours. If I had been on my own, I guarantee that wouldn't happen. Yeah, I would not have traversed the town and saw what I did and did what I did and accomplished what I did. So a guide was extremely important there, as it is in the recovery journey.

That's a great illustration, because in recovery, you can do it on your own. You can try, but you're likely to get lost. You're likely to get frustrated. It's going to take a lot longer. And we've seen people that come into group or counseling for the first time and will say, I've been at this for 10 years, 15 years, and I'm still struggling. And often it's because they're really lacking that guide, that direction. One of the phrases I was thinking about that we use so often for people early in recovery is the phrase trust the process. And if we're going to trust the process, part of that is knowing that someone ahead of us knows what the process is, and that often is the group leader that can say, hey, I've walked through this before. I know what's coming. I know what is helpful to focus on. Now. Another role that may be in someone's life is their counselor. Going to someone who has been trained in the area of sexual addiction recovery and can provide some parameters of, here's why we're doing these things. Here's why this is helpful. Here's why, even if it doesn't make sense to you, it's going to be a part of your healing. And even in that role, I still find for so many of us, I mean, this was my story. Even if we know they've walked the road before, this is what they're trained to do. There is an element of trust that we have to choose for our group leader, for our counselor, for that guide. Just like you, Tyler, as you found that guide in New York City, you had to trust that that person knew what they were talking about and they weren't going to lead you astray. And I find that when we come in a group, and again, I'm saying this to myself, it was my story. There can be a level of pride that we're still dealing with, of, I don't really need this. My struggle's not that bad, man. I've heard some other people's stories, and, yeah, they need help, but me, you know, we can justify where we're at. And some of it's that choice of humility to say, I'm going to trust the process. I'm going to trust this guide, Whether my group leader or counselor that's walked this road with many others. And I'm going to do things that I wouldn't naturally choose to do because I'm removing myself from the driver's seat of this experience. And that's what you're allowing the group leader, the guide, the counselor. And that doesn't mean they're gonna do it for you, but it means you're gonna trust the leadership. You're gonna trust the process so that they can help you get somewhere that you haven't been before.

Well, and Tyler, using your example, like, let's say you're walking around for six hours, and your guide knows that around hour three, people tend to get a little bit hungry. And so, hey, maybe we should stop. You know, like, hey, what kind of food do you like? Asking those questions, knowing that around hour three, hey, we should probably stop and get some food, because the next three hours are going to be tough if you haven't. So there is this role of a group leader that knows what's coming and can ask good questions to help prepare you for what's coming, but then also, like, challenge you. Like, well, bro, of course you're lagging. I told you to eat at three hours, but we're five hours in, and now you're whining and complaining about being hungry. It's like we talked about this. And it's not that group leader is going to, like, put you on blast or, like, blow you up in front of the entire group. But there is still that role of. No, I'm going to press in here and I'm going to challenge you because I've walked this road before, many, many times. I need you to trust me that what you're talking about, Nick. But then also just know that the questions I ask you and the challenges I give you right now are going to set you up to have better success later in the group. Because I've experienced that.

Absolutely. And that group facilitator may have made certain mistakes.

Probably did.

And he can speak truth into that situation.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And I think that's the reality, that all the people we're talking about are still just people. So they're not perfect. They don't have all the answers, but they have something that they can provide to us to help along the way. And the next person we wanted to talk about, the second person you need in recovery is the group member or friend, or we might call this the accountability partner, the peer who's there for support. What is so powerful about having another person going through the recovery process with you?

Yeah. By nature, addiction and betrayal trauma is Extremely isolating and a lonely, lonely place. And to enter in to that recovery process with someone by your side who has developed a common language with you, common experiences, common challenges where they can support, encourage, and it's. It's two ways. It works both ways. You're supporting that person, they're supporting you, and you recognize you're not in it alone. And, I mean, the Lord sent people out two by two. Yeah, we can't do this alone.

Yeah.

And we need that person by our side. And not relying on them for our recovery, but just having them as a source of strength, encouragement, all those things.

Yeah. There's a couple principles that come to mind for me, and one is the principle of, like, nothing of value that I do, will I ever do alone, that it has to involve other people. And it's that encouragement piece. It's the knowing I'm doing something alongside someone else. Like when I'm struggling, I can look right across and see, oh, they're struggling, too. We're in this together. And there's that band of brothers idea, but then the other one, too. And I don't know why this comes to mind, but it feels like it applies. When I was. When I first. My freshman year of college on my baseball team, I remember there was this gap between the head coach and me. There was this authority thing, and it wasn't like I could just sit down with my head coach and just shoot the breeze. So, yeah, this is what I did for today. It's the girl I talked to. This is who we had lunch with, that kind of thing, that's something I could do maybe sometimes with my assistant coaches, but absolutely with the other guys who are on the team with me. That shared suffering that we went through when we're conditioning, when we're doing these drills we don't want to do anymore when it gets monotonous and recovery can absolutely get monotonous. And so that idea of, like, this co sufferer with me going through it, that's relatable. And there's just. There's a ton of power in that, knowing that I'm not the only one having to go through this sucky recovery thing because I've caused a lot of damage, and I know it's good for me. I've heard that before. But sometimes it's hard to believe in the moment. But if you know you're not the only one doing it, there's a ton. There's tons of motivation and encouragement that can come from that.

And we've talked about this on A lot of podcasts. But the reason we call a blind spot a blind spot is because you can't see it. And if you don't think you have one, well, it's because you can't see it. And it's probably evidence that you have one that you believe you don't. That's why it's a blind spot. And we all have them. And it's amazing how often in group or when you're talking with a friend or they're sharing their story, they're being real about their struggles, you hear in them something in a new way that you now see for yourself through fresh eyes, like, oh, I've never understood the excuses I make until I hear it coming from you. And now it's painfully obvious that I do the same thing or I'm stuck in the same pattern. And that's the reality too. When we've been in any sort of addictive behavior, we're in a pattern. We're in a self replicating, repeating cycle that's hard to break out of. And if all we do is keep seeing what we've always seen and doing what we've always done, we're likely going to keep getting what we've always gotten in terms of our results. So when I add another person to that equation and I listen to their story, I listen to the attempts they're making, I learn from their mistakes, I learn from their growth. It just does something to change my pattern. And I think it's absolutely crucial, and I would say too, that having that person that we see as a peer that we just feel is safe to call any time of the day that we can be accountable to, that we can say, hey, I'm going to check in with you a couple times this week, let you know how I'm doing. That is really vital to have. In addition to the first person we discussed and I've, I've seen scenarios where people kind of confuse or mix the two roles for their mentor, their guide, their group leader. And that can be challenging if the group leader or a counselor or a pastor that we're working with is the only person we're being honest with. Because when it comes to accountability or being real about man, I'm really struggling and I want to go to some bad sites, that fear of letting a mentor down or a pastor or a counselor and like, well, I don't want to tell them or I, it can almost enter into almost parent child relationship feel of, well, I don't want dad to be mad at me and Even though I know my group leader is not my dad, they've kind of taken on a more fatherly role in some of our lives. It's just tough to have that also be the accountability person because of that layer of I'm letting them down or how that makes me feel about my own family history. So that's where I think a group member, a peer, a friend that's in the journey with you that you just know, like, they're in it with me. And I'm not worried about are they disappointed in me or not, Because I know they're battling the same stuff. We're co laboring. And I know that in a pure desire group, depending on your leader or the situation you're in, you may feel that with your leader. Because we do say leaders are not experts. Leaders are not trained professionals. In some groups they might be, but a leader often is there for their own experience. And I've had times in group where I'm the leader, but I really feel it's a peer relationship. So if that's the case, that's not what I'm speaking to. I am speaking more to where it's your counselor, your pastor, someone that you really look up to as the mentor and guide. That relationship is just not the same as, like you were saying, Trevor, someone you can just shoot the breeze with, bring up real petty stuff, ask unique questions about your struggle that probably aren't going to come up with your mentor or guide or counselor. So I think having both is so crucial because of the freedom we feel to communicate to that peer and. Or group member.

Yeah.

That peer is highly relatable. I mean, you're in it together. Yeah, it's like, he gets me, I get him, he gets me, that type of thing.

Yeah. Another thing I thought of too, Nick, as you were sharing, and we've talked about this a lot in a lot of our groups, podcasts, and this is something that absolutely we've all experienced. But there's this principle of if I'm not doing my homework and I'm not sharing, I'm actually limiting the growth of the group because in my experience, some of the bigger things I've learned in recovery were from someone else sharing about their story and not even necessarily learning just from like a mistake that they made, but they're telling a story of a childhood wound that they had that all of a sudden puts this new filter over my eyes and it's like, oh my gosh, I had the same experience. I had no idea. And then you start to Connect the dots. And it's like, I understand my story so much better now because one person was able to write out an answer about their story and share it in group. And I think that, that it's interesting. This is what came to mind that the resource that you go through, whether it's the seven pillars of freedom, whether it's unraveled, a living free behind the mask, whatever it may be for recovery, that that resource is absolutely essential and important. But the group members that are in the group are also a resource that you're going through. They're also helping you unpack your story and learn principles and apply truth to your life. And so I think that's another piece is that I learn from the sharing of other people which necessitates me being around other group members when on the recovery process.

That's a great point, Trevor. One of the statements from early, early on in the PD history is we were wounded in relationship and we're healed in relationship.

Yep. Yeah. Which is a trip when you first get in the group. Like no, no, no, that doesn't make sense. Alright, let's keep moving. The third person that we need in recovery. And it's funny, I wrote it out as recovery veteran, but as we were talking before we started recording, it's more of just a healthy veteran, like someone who has health outside of just recovery. Maybe they have been through recovery, but how does someone further down the road of being healthy help us on our own journey?

You know, they're essentially modeling a healthy lifestyle. Like what does that look like? Some, because some folks, they don't know what that looks like. A healthy lifestyle where this individual has found a good rhythm in their choices in their life and there's someone to have fun with, someone who can step outside of recovery, talk into just real world stuff. Let's just, let's just hang out and let me show you and tell you what I know.

Yeah, I think about the quote that you will be essentially the same person five years from now as you are today, except for the books you read and the friends you keep. And the idea that the two sources of input are knowledge or things we choose to learn and people we choose to associate with. Because there is, I think, a natural human tendency that we become more like the people we associate with. And so if we realize I'm stuck in some unhealthy patterns, there's a valid question to ask. Is how healthy are the people around you and are they making good lifestyle choices? And do you look at their marriage and see, wow, they have a relationship with their spouse that is at a depth, a level of connection beyond what I know how to experience right now. And so how can I watch them, learn from them, hang around them, just be in their world, be in their environment so that some of that rubs off on me, that I become a little more like that kind of person. And I really think if we're looking for that, it's on us to pursue that person, to ask for their help, to just say, hey, I'd love to hang around you and learn. Could I come along on these things you do, or could I be a part of that thing you've started? Because I think some of us have a tendency to wait and hope that we'll be invited or asked or that some healthy veteran ahead of us will come back, say, hello, my young son, let me take you along.

And the Lord pressed you upon my heart this morning.

I sense that I am to pour in. Most of us, if we are in that season of life where we could be an encouragement to someone else, we are not looking to impose. We are not looking to tell them what to do. It can feel like, hey, let me teach you how to be a better husband. Like, oh, thanks a lot. But if someone pursues and asks us, man, would you. Would you help me see what I'm not seeing? And that's really valuable. And so I just would encourage. If you don't feel like you really have many healthy role models in your life, I think you need to pursue those relationships and be bold to ask and say, would you mentor me in this area? Would you guide me? Would you just help me see how you got to this place and what that road looks like for me? Because I'm recognizing in your life things I want to see in mind. So help me learn from you.

You know, it's funny. This last weekend we're going through a marriage study by Tim and Kathy Keller, and the topic was sex. And one of the things that Tim said in the study was that a lot of people want to. This is going somewhere, I promise. A lot of people want to have sex before they're married to see if they're compatible in that area before they get married. But he said, what they don't know is that when you're married for 40 years, your sexual compatibility has these ups and downs, these waves that happen where maybe you're compatible at the beginning, but then a health thing happens or children change the scenario, and then your sex compatibility, like your sexual compatibility changes. And for me, as I was listening, I was just like, that is, like, that'll freaking preach. Like, and I've experienced that after, like, my wife, you know, birthed both of our boys. But then also, you know, like, my wife is now has some hormonal stuff that's going on, and that's impacting not just sex, but just every part of our relationship changes as we change, as things happen to us. And so having those people who are ahead of us, who can say things like that, like, that's pure gold. That's the stuff that you put in your pipe, whether you smoke or not. And you'd smoke that pipe, right? Like, that's the kind of stuff that you want to have, but it's the people too. Like, and I love what you're saying, Nick, because you pick people you want to be like. Like, I remember when I first met Rodney Wright, who's on staff, a friend of our. A friend of ours. I remember saying, I want to be like Rodney when I grow up. And, you know, it's great. I've spent time with Rodney and there are ways I have become like Rodney, but he's the type of person I see who loves people well, and I want to be more like him. And so I pursue that. And so I think that what I love about this role, too, is that it lifts our eyes from just the am I sexually healthy? It's also who are people that are emotionally healthy, who are mentally healthy, who are physically healthy, and can help me round out my holistic health. Because it all, I mean, as Rodney says, it's all spiritual. It's all a part of who we are as this holistic person. So I think having those veterans are really helpful because they help us grow in all these other areas, even outside the recovery process.

All right, so the fourth person that we need in recovery, and I would say the most important, is Jesus. How is Christ, Tyler? How is Christ central to the recovery process? Because I know sometimes as we get into group and recovery and tools, it feels like it's just about what I need to learn, what I need to do, the steps I need to take. I mean, it's frankly a lot of hard work and hard things to face. So what is the role that Christ plays in our life and in recovery that helps us on this journey?

Well, as we all know, recovery is a two to five year process. And when I tell folks that at the beginning, their eyes get really wide and they ask, you've got to be kidding me. Is that true? Yeah, that's true. Does that mean they're in Counseling, two to five years? No, but it does mean they're doing some type of restorative work which includes their devotional life, their spiritual journey or spiritual walk, their relationship with Jesus. We're all designed mind, body and spirit. And in order to be healthy, we have to be healthy spiritually. And that connection with the Lord provides that.

Yeah.

John 14:7, I am the way and the truth and the life. If we want to know the way forward, know Jesus. If we want to know truth in life, know Jesus. If we want to seek an abundant life, know Jesus. That's. It's the key. It really is the key. So in a journey for true health, wholeness and restoration, an honest relationship with the Lord is not optional, but it's a part of it. It's a requirement really, to live as we're designed to live.

Yeah. I mean, it's clear in Scripture that it's the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that gives us the ability to change, to become more like him, to grow in any area and specifically sexually as we grow in our understanding. I think too, the Holy Spirit is. He's a counselor and a guide and helps us make those connections as we're going through, you know, like things like, you know, in seven pillars, going through your top 10, like writing those out and starting to see how those lies that you believed about yourself because of these terrible experiences have crafted the way that you view life and the way that you interact with other people and the way that you process your own pain and difficulty. And what's great is that those connections are made. But then the Holy Spirit is also who empowers us to start taking some steps outside of that and moving forward in a different direction. But two, like, I think that the lies are a huge piece. I think that the better that we are pursuing the Lord, the closer we are with him, the more of God's word that we know, the more truth we're going to know. As you're talking about Tyler, which we're able to combat the lies that were just like lodged in. I think Ted is the one, Dr. Ted is the one who said this. Like that soul that lies get lodged in our soul and that, you know, through our relationship with the Lord, those lies can be like, destroyed and said, no, no, no. Like, this is who you really are. Because so much of the journey of recovery is unlearning a performance based mindset of learning. My value comes from how well I do learning how to process the shame that I feel from, you know, the brokenness I have in my life. And Jesus is absolutely central to every single aspect of that. And so, yeah, it's just a no brainer. And I know that some people may feel like on this podcast, in our resources, we don't emphasize that enough. But all three of us know that as an organization, in our resources, and then all three of us individually know that Jesus is the only reason recovery is possible.

Yeah, I recall in my talk at Summit two years ago that was kind of my main point was the goal of recovery really is reattachment to God, that that's what we were made for. I mean, Romans 11:36 says, for all things were made by him and through him and for him, that we exist by God, through God and for God, that ultimately our life is meant to draw us back to our Creator and understand how to live eternally with him and others. And so what happens in any addiction is really that continual separation and pain and woundedness that keeps us not just from relationships with other people, but a sense of relationship with God who made us and loves us and knows us because we battle with these voices of shame or worthlessness or thinking that the way I phrased it is God loved me because he had to. Because in John 3:16 it says, God so loved the world and I'm in the world, so he had to love me. And I prayed to believe in him, so he had to let me in. But if he had his choice, he doesn't really like me, he didn't really want me in. Those are the voices of shame from my past. And so in recovery, it's not just that relationships heal us with other people. It's ultimately reattaching us to an understanding of the love of God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that He is for us. And that's one of those eye opening moments I've seen happen in group and in my own story where you just have the fog lifted and realize, man, I've lived with a sense of shame not just for myself, but how I think God views me. And that's not true. I think of the New Testament verse that says, you know, Jesus is not afraid to call us his brothers and sisters. I think could be equally applicable the Greek word's brothers. But I think we know that's meant as people, that the idea that God the Son, God revealed to us in Jesus fully God fully, man was not ashamed or afraid to associate with people and say, you're my brother, you're my sister, I am with you. And I think when we're in Recovery. And we start to really embrace that at a deep heart level that I'm not alone in this. Not just because other people are in my group or they call me once in a while to do their check in phone calls, but because in what I'm facing, Christ is in it with me and is for me, I think of in a lot of our groups, maybe more so in the past, many of them would show the John lynch video, one of the authors of True Faced, who would do that. Great talk on the two roads and that road to trying harder, the road to performance versus that road of grace. And the difference between the two, how we viewed our sin. And I think it was just such an accurate picture that many of us see we're standing on one side of this huge pile of all of our sin and Jesus is on the other side. Like, could you just deal with all the sin so that we could be closer? That that's kind of that performance based, try harder, I've got to earn my way back to God kind of lifestyle. And it's. It never works because the harder we try, the more sin we realize is there and the further away Christ feels from us. And then John lynch describes in the Room of Grace, it's so different that we're still standing there looking out over this huge lake or pile of our sin. But then we realize that right next to us is Jesus looking at it with us going, we'll deal with this together. I'm with you in it and you don't have to get through it to get to me. I'm already right here with you in the middle of it. And I think when we truly embrace that, it's a game changer. It's like, wow, I am not through faith in Christ. I am not separated from him by my sin. He's with me in it. Yeah, he wants to help us deal with it. He's not just gonna leave it alone and be like, oh, it's no big deal. No, he wants to help us deal with it. But he's there with us in it, not on the other side waiting for us to get better. So that imagery, I think was a game changer for me because I realized I was stuck in that first image of thinking that my personal holiness somehow made Christ closer to me. And that I really think was a lie that had to be dealt with. So when we see that he's there as the advocate and depending on how your theology is worded, you might think of it more as the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's God in us. You might think of it as God the Father and his loving care. Whichever dynamic of the Trinity means the most to you, I'm not going to fault you for that. But just saying that Jesus is with us in it, with us in it is so crucial to lasting transformation.

Yeah. There's a book, it's a beautiful picture. I think it's. Dane Ortland wrote a book called Gentle and Lowly and he talked about Jesus doesn't check in to our brokenness and sin. Check, check in and out like a hotel. He takes up permanent residence in that brokenness. So I just, I've always thought, and I would recommend anybody read that book. It's a beautiful book about the heart of Jesus in that he is with us. Absolutely. Okay, so we've covered the four and you know, Nick, you sent. As we were talking through this episode, you asked the question, should the spouse be on this list? And we had some dialogue back and forth and the spouse is not on this list. And I wanted to bring it up and ask why. Like if someone is married and they're going through the recovery process, it feels like it's a no brainer that their spouse would be someone they need. Um, but let's talk about why maybe the spouse isn't necessarily someone that's an absolute necessity to have or that role when you're on the recovery journey, at least initially.

I would say 40% of our guys are single. And of those 60% that come into the PD office as, say, clients, not all the spouses want to support their spouse, their partner. Yeah, it's like, you fix yourself, buddy. That's usually, you know, what will be. We also cannot rely upon our spouse to facilitate healing and restoration. It's our responsibility. So essentially that's why the spouse didn't hit the list that the four that I had drafted up. I had pose this question to guys in my group, men that I work with. And for several of them, the spouse did hit their list, like, yeah, I need him or her or her to, to support and to encourage.

Yeah.

And to be a part of this restoration process. So for many it's that relationship is incredibly important.

Yeah, yeah.

But others, they're not ready. They're not ready to be in the first chair of recovery.

Yeah. And that's what I was thinking too, Tyler, that a spouse certainly can be a vital part of support, friendship, encouragement.

Totally.

But I think many of us, especially early in recovery, can make the mistake of in some way thinking it's my spouse's job to Fix me. It's my spouse's role to help me. They should be doing some of this for me or even thinking thoughts like, well, if only they did more fill in the blank, then I could be healthier. If only they would do these things. And it really is like in any relationship, there's some blame shifting, some putting responsibility on others for my change. That's not healthy. And if we're doing that with our spouse at all, it's not only going to damage our relationship, it's going to really hold us back in our recovery. And so looking through our four categories, your spouse should not be your group leader. They're not your mentor. They're not the one guiding you through the process because that's, they're your spouse, they're not your leader. And your spouse is a different role. Your spouse also is not your accountability partner or your peer. You may, depending on the marriage and where you're at in the relationship, there may be ways in which you can confide in them. You can learn to be real and vulnerable and honest like you would with a friend or accountability partner. But we've said it all the time on the podcast. They're not the person that should be getting all your reports and your weekly check ins and your faster scale. I mean, and we've talked in other places where those tools can help in a marriage relationship that's on the road to recovery. But if they're your sole source of, well, that's the one person I'm honest with. That's going to be brutal for them and challenging for you, and it's just not, it's not healthy. So they're not your leader, they're not your mentor, they're not your recovery veteran. They're not Jesus.

No, they're your spouse.

And I think there's that reality that we have to keep coming back to, that my behavior more often than not is going to be deeply wounding and hurtful to them and to allow them space to be my spouse who is also hurt by this and needs some of their own support and recovery and healing. And I'm not leaning on them for my health. That's, I think, the awareness that we're in now. As you grow, as you start to make changes as a couple, you hopefully begin to come back together in ways that you never even had before. Because that's something we've heard over and over on this podcast with couples and stories of healing. It's like we have a better marriage now than we have ever had. So that absolutely can be in your future. But if you're early in recovery, in some ways, you need to take the spouse off the list as someone that's helping you recover and just let them be your spouse. And if they're hurting and wounded by what you've done, that's a road you've got to walk through and let them be on that road without expecting that, well, if only you would help me. If only you would support me in my journey. No. And in some ways, that's an old model too, of co addiction. Like, well, we're all here to help the addict get better, and it's our job to just support the process of the addict. We've now seen that. No, in a marriage, there's two people that need to take two journeys of recovery that have very different needs and support systems in place. And so to think about that, if you're the struggler, if you're the one that's walking through addiction, whether you're male or female, you have a spouse that's walking through a story of their own, and what kind of people might they need in their life? And that's honestly the best thing that you could do. As you've thought through today, who are the four people you need? It's to ask the question, well, who are the four people my spouse needs and what could I do to help make sure they get those people? Whether it's making time for them to go to their weekly group, helping support the financial side of you both, being with a counselor, giving them time to hang out with a mentor or friend that really breathes and provides health into their life, providing space for them to have a devotional life or to get away with God and not have the kids always around with their needs. You know, every person's situation is different. But I think that's the valuable question you could ask is not how does my spouse support me in my recovery? But instead say, who does my spouse need for their recovery and how can I help make sure they get that? Because if both of you, as we've seen, if both of you have these kind of roles in your life and are getting healthy together, that's the greatest hope for your marriage, finding new footing and new ground together. So, yeah, flip that question around and just say, how could I help make sure they have people in their life? Just as I am pursuing these relationships in my life.

I was thinking about the example of someone who maybe has health issues because of their weight, and they realize that maybe it's diabetic, maybe it's Something else that's much more challenging for their life and their life expectancy. That's like, okay, we need to make some changes. We need to change the way that you eat. We need to start being more active. There are things that are gonna be prescribed out of that. Now, if that person's spouse isn't on board with doing the same things, that's not a good enough reason for that person to do the work necessary to get healthy. Now, if the spouse is on board, will it be exponentially easier? 100%. No question. No question at all. But again, that's not a good enough reason if your spouse is not on board, not to do it. So the spouse buy in is not essential for you to do the recovery work. It is going to absolutely amplify the fruit of the work that you've done and the health of your relationship and your family. But to know that you don't have to tether it to whether your spouse is on board or not, that's not a good enough reason for you not to get healthy. Because believe it or not, if you get healthy, you're going to stop damaging the relationship you have with your spouse. You're going to start investing in it and pouring into it in healthy ways, and so they will get benefit from it. And again, you don't want to keep yourself from that health or the benefit you could give the people around you. All right, well, that was, honestly, that was a good episode. I'm glad that we did that one. It's funny we haven't done it before, but. Yeah. Tyler, thank you for the list. Appreciate that. I mean, I think it's really important that no matter where you're at on the recovery journey, these are the four roles that you need. And as I said, at the top, it's not something that you need all four roles at the exact same time in every season of recovery, but at least having two at a time I think is really important. And if you can find all four, then more power to you in your recovery journey, definitely go for it. So, Tyler, thank you, man, for. I know you adopt some of these roles for guys and we appreciate the work you do there and as our clinical director, so appreciate your time, man.

Thank you. It's a privilege.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from a wanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today.

Day.

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