303 - Helping My Spouse Heal w/ Carol Juergensen Sheets

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 303 of the Pure Desire podcast here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Jacob, Jacob and Sons. Jacob Jacob and Sons.

I'll be honest, I thought it was like John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt. I thought there was gonna be some weird title.

Have I used that one? Maybe I should jot that down.

Well, I mean, you got a pen over there?

Yeah, that's a great little jingle. But no, that was not today's intro.

I have no idea what that. What do you.

And I'd be surprised if you did. It is from a lesser known Broadway musical called Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, which is the story of Joseph from the book of Genesis in the Bible.

Okay.

Have you seen it? And they turned it into an hour. I was in the play in middle school.

Little one up action there. Nice job.

Yeah, I've seen it. Have the cd. It was really good. Really good music.

That's awesome. Okay, so tie it in. Because we had Carol Jurgensen Sheets on the podcast today and she's a csat. She's an author with multiple resources. She has really a practice where she's Carol the coach. She helps couples go through the process of really restoration of relationships, especially after discovery, with recovery and healing. And we had her on really to just talk about this aspect of how do addicted or struggling spouses help their betrayed partner heal?

Yeah, I was thinking of Jacob and Joseph because this year I'm doing the chronological Bible. And I know by the time this airs I'll be more like halfway through, but at the beginning of the year, it has you in the book of Genesis. And as I read through this year, I am just so struck by how messy and complicated the early families of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were. I mean, it's, it's just, it's chaotic at times of, of the violence, the who's sleeping with who lies, deception. You know, you've got the family of Jacob and his sons. You know, so Levi, who becomes the father of the Israelite priesthood, is involved in some very violent, you know, incident where he goes into this town and they kill a bunch of people. And that's the founder of the Levitical priesthood. And it's like, wow, you know, and the sons of Joseph are half Egyptians. So here's this, the pure Israel race, while Ephraim and Manasseh are half Egyptian. And it's amazing to me how in the midst of all that, God is achieving his purposes, God is creating his family, his people on earth, through whom he will bless all the nations and through whom Christ would come. And in connection to what we talk about today, when couples are in recovery and all the stuff is coming out, whether through discovery or disclosure or staggered disclosure or all the above, it feels messy. It feels complicated. And I think we might feel like if we're either of the spouses, if we're the one that struggled or the betrayed spouse, we can feel like this has ruined everything. Nothing good will ever come of this. And I just look at that story of all the families in Genesis and say, if you didn't know what it led to in the Bible, I think your conclusion would be, this is horrible. Nothing good will come of this. And yet God did amazing things, not only in those stories, but in the future generations. And so I. I think today's conversation leads us into that idea that really good things can come out of very messy situations. And I think today we unpack with Dr. Carol some of the tools and approaches that we can take to help partner with what God wants to do in our relationships.

Yeah, it really is such a great conversation. She is amazing. And we'll have all of the links to her resources in the show notes as well. You know, it's funny. I wanted to talk about something else, but just even after having this conversation with her, it feels like something that we should remind people of, is that one of the biggest aspects of helping restore a marriage, if you are a struggling or addicted spouse, is going through recovery. Your own recovery journey. And specifically today, in the context we find this in most often is the man is the one who's struggling with addictive behavior. And we have a group for them. And it is seven Pillars of Freedom. It's a group resource. You and I have both been through and has been instrumental in our recovery. And so why don't you talk a little bit about seven pillars and why it's so helpful for men in recovery.

Yeah. And this comes up in the conversation today that for a spouse who's been betrayed and wounded by their husband's behavior, for them to heal, it really takes some signs of sobriety and traction and momentum in the right direction of health from their husband. And so you can't just jump right into relational healing if you've created all this woundedness and pain. And so if a guy is asking that question, well, how do I get there? How do I get to that point where I can help her heal. The answer is do your work and do some really hard work. And that's what seven Pillars of Freedom is all about. It's not just a light hearted how to avoid bad websites on the Internet kind of study. It's like, let's look at your whole life and your whole story and unpack what led to this. Why do you do this? What are you using this behavior to cope with now? Or how are you using it to medicate and avoid painful things? And when you're able to do that in a group context with other men who are on the same journey, it does something really powerful in you that starts to create that new foundation of health and freedom out of which you can then reach across to your spouse to say, I want to be a part of our healing journey as a couple and supporting you in your needs of healing from the trauma that I have caused. But if you don't do your own work first in attempting to help heal your marriage, you're probably just going to keep re injuring without realizing why. So first for men in recovery, seven Pillars of Freedom, we feel, is an absolute. If you've done something initial like the Conquer series or sexual integrity 101, those are great introductions, but we say all the time those are like the on ramps to the freeway of healing. And that freeway for men is the seven pillars of freedom. So it's been used for over two decades to help men. And the results, the proof is in the pudding. We've seen consistently a high percentage of men who complete the work that say, this has made a significant impact in my behavior and in my life. And so if you're in that place where this has been an on again, off again struggle, and maybe it's been in your life for a lot of years, you need to engage in the seven Pillars of freedom, whether online or in your local church. And really, I think this will be instrumental in lasting change in your life.

Yeah. And as you mentioned, there are local groups, there are online groups for this. And if you want more information on Seven Pillars of Freedom, just go to PureDesire.org the word Seven Pillars. All right, before we get to our conversation with Carol the coach, you can subscribe to the podcast. You can also watch this full episode up on YouTube. It's great she has her dog walking around in the background. I highly suggest it. And then also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And with that, here is our time with Carol Jurgensen Sheets, AKA Carol the coach, on helping our betrayed partner Heal. Carol Jurgensen Sheets, thank you so much for being with us on the Pure Desire podcast. We're happy to have you.

I am so happy to be here. And it's been a while. It's taken us a while to get our schedules together.

Yes, it has.

We worked it out.

The Lord's favor is now upon us. Okay. So our time together today will be spent talking through how people who have struggled with sexual addiction can help support, love, and ultimately help their spouse heal. Nick and I, even before you jumped on, were talking about, this is such an important conversation. We have so many married couples who are in this situation where a betrayed partner wants more understanding, and an addicted or struggling spouse absolutely knows this is part of it is understanding more. And so you have written a resource on this, aptly titled Help Her Heal. It's an empathy workbook for sex addicts to help their partners heal. And we just want to learn from your research, from your work, from your experience. And so as we jump into our conversation, Carol, will you just. Some of our listeners maybe aren't familiar with your work or even your resource. And so can you fill our listeners in a little bit of background, a little bit of your story and your work?

Well, yeah, I actually became a CSAT, a certified sex addiction therapist, in 2007. And the beautiful thing about that is I also worked in radio, and so I actually. Guys had the oldest podcast in the world on sex addiction.

Oh, wow.

Nice.

Yeah, 2007. I've done it every week since. I've got thousands of episodes. But the bottom line is, one year into it, I found that women were listening to my show. 52% of my listening audience was women. And I first went, that's a lot of female sex addicts. And then I went, no, wait a minute. That's wives trying to understand their husband. Because the show is specifically for sex addiction and men. And so I realized they needed more psychoeducation. And as I was working diligently on trying to figure out how I could help him to help her heal, I. I had two hypotheses because he was having trouble with empathy. And I said, either he never had empathy and that may have led to his sex addiction, or he had empathy, but the sex addiction robbed him from his ability to have empathy because, you know, although they live a dual life, we know that empathy really means putting yourself in somebody else's position. And how could he stay cognizant of what he was doing to her and continue that behavior? So I think the empathy dried up a bit. And I decided to, to write something up for him on how to really communicate, how to have empathy, what a traumatized brain was, as well as other relational skills like focused listening and mirroring and spraying oneself with Teflon so that he doesn't go into shade.

Yeah.

And then when I did that help her heal was, was born.

That's awesome.

Well, Carol, we recommend that workbook all the time. It's a subject that as men go through pure desire materials, understanding what your spouse is going through is touched on, but certainly not in the way that it gets unpacked in your workbook. And we've heard from so many how helpful that is. So unpack a little more the work in there because I think you talked a little bit about empathy and our listeners probably feel like they understand it a little bit. But, but delve a little deeper into what is empathy and how can we actively develop empathy, especially if we're the one that has struggled with some form of sex addiction. What does it look like to actually develop in this area?

Yeah, that's an excellent question. And, and the truth is that nursing scholar Teresa Wiseman developed a definition for empathy that Brene Brown uses. The great Brene Brown. And empathy is four things. Empathy is perspective taking, being able to take her perspective. And I don't mean to just elude the sex addicts are males and partners are women. But for the sake of clarity and who I mostly work with, I'm going to just talk that way. So it's his ability to take her perspective and do so in a non judgmental way. And when she is traumatized, it's really difficult for him to not wonder what's going on with her, why is she acting crazy? How long is this going to go on? And so I teach men how to stay in the moment with that. And then the other two characteristics is recognizing emotionality, you know, saying oh boy, I left to go to the grocery store, she was fine, I came back and she's a mess. And I think it's about me. And so instead of heading off to the garage because he thinks I'm the offending item, I'm going to get myself out of here or I don't like conflict, I'm out of here. To lean into that emotionality and to reflect, you know, it looks like you're really sad now right now, what's going on? And when a man can take her perspective, do it non judgmentally, notice the emotionality and then give it a, give it a feeling he is in route to the pathway of empathy. And when he does that, it connects him. So I would say, Nick, that truly it's being able to put together that definition for his self as well as to lean into her as opposed to leaning out. That's empathy.

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting too, we talk about this a lot on our show, that empathy is not necessarily something that is talked about a lot in the church or taught or shown how to do. And I know for me, growing up in the traditional Christian home, it's like information based transformation. And what I've come to understand is that empathy is not learned by reading a book and getting the principles. It's by practicing it, by actually sitting face to face with somebody and being able to go through that encounter. And so I think that that's an important piece you're bringing up is that it comes over time as you practice those four aspects in relationship with someone else.

Well, you're singing my song and I'll tell you what. I know we're here to talk about Help her Heal. And that is truly the book that teaches him empathy. But what I found was I really needed to help them through the process.

Yeah.

So I wrote Help them Heal.

There we go.

Which takes them through the process themselves in case they don't have a coach, they don't have a counselor to learn how to do this work in a safe and stable way. And so when you said that, I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, it's one thing to read the book, it's another thing to practice. But it really helps if you're with a professional that understands this work and can help both of them receive it, give it, and accept it. You know, it's. It's hard to trust somebody after he has betrayed you in the worst way imaginable. I. I always say that next to losing a child, sex addiction is the partner's greatest pain.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's, I think, research that bears that out and backs up a statement like that. One of the things we do hear a lot in our society is that men, you know, men aren't emotional or for sure that men aren't as emotional as women. And I think in my experience, both as a group leader and my own story, I think men are just as emotional as women. But we've often been taught to deal with it very differently than women, to stuff it, to ignore it, to avoid it, because we think of emotions often as unmanly. And so I love what you're saying about the couple really doing this together, because I think we try to emphasize that in groups. For men to say this healing journey isn't. I mean, it's obviously about changing behavior. Yes. But it's also understanding what's driving you, what are you thinking and feeling. And as you start to understand what you're feeling and what your emotions are, it gives you, I think, more tools to then enter into that with your wife and to understand what she's feeling. And rather than like many of us have done, go into the garage, go for a run, go work out, turn on the tv, just kind of numb out to emotions, we realize, oh, there's something here that needs to be addressed. And if I address it, things could actually get better. There could be improvements rather than this old pattern of just avoidance. And I think the negative cycle a lot of couples get in. And so I love that you're equipping not only men to understand that, but then a couple to learn to speak that language together, because then they can really get on the same page with what is driving us, what's triggering things in our relationship and how do we heal.

Yeah. And you know, Carol, you talked about it already that, you know, this impact, beside losing a child, how really damaging this is, sexual betrayal is. And what we know, you know, from research and then even our work and our resources too, that the brain can just go offline for a betrayed partner. And one of the ways that this can manifest is not being able to articulate or identify what they need, how they feel. And so how can addicted spouses, if at all, support a betrayed partner in that situation? Can they come alongside? Can they help them identify and articulate what they need?

Well, that is the million dollar question. And the first thing I would do is I would encourage them to. To read about the brain science of partner betrayal. They can go to my website, www.sexhelpwithcarol. the coach and under Resources, the very first video is an animated resource I created and narrated to help them understand what is going on with her brain. And when they understand that she's in a traumatized state, not every partner is, but the majority of them are. He can then kind of follow the recommendations that I make and help her heal. Help them heal, which is to acknowledge feelings. So now back to Nick. You know, Nick, you said men, you believe men have just as many feelings. And I do too. And that's why in Help Her Heal, I wrote about him understanding the traumatized brain first and foremost. That's chapter one. And then in chapter two, it's all about feelings. And I keep it to the famous five. And they are anger, sadness, loneliness, fear, and happiness. Now we know there are many, many more feelings. Lots of addicts have the feeling wheel, and they are. They're using their wheel to figure out how they feel. And that's amazing. But I find if we keep it to five, everything else falls under one of those five. And when they can better identify their feelings by keeping it simple, then they can better help her to identify her feelings. And the traumatized brain is flooded with emotions. She's got every feeling in the world. And so together, they can do that dance of identifying feelings, because feelings are great motivators, And I agree 100%. Nick, when you said men are encouraged to stuff it, push it down in psychological terms, we call it repression, suppression, minimization. And unfortunately, they've been taught to do that. And when something extreme like sexual addiction, discovery occurs.

Wow.

They do more of that just to be able to cope with the situation before them. So help them with their feelings. Now back to you, Trevor. Help them with their feelings and then get them to work together on sharing feelings at least five times a week, if not every day. I mean, the importance of a check in whether that's the thanos, whether it's my connection share out of the book. There are a zillion check. And actually, I think they should have a copy of each one, because if you're in this business 10, 20 years, and, you know, a lot of our couples come to us after they've been dealing with discovery for over 30 years. I mean, they're not just fresh, right? It is, you know, they had a discovery, then 10 years later, they had another discovery. Without the proper resources, sex addicts can't maintain sobriety. It's the hardest addiction of all to really learn how to manage. And that is why I'm so thankful for you guys. You have such an incredible program, such an incredible podcast, and you've got a whole entity, your church, to help support these men in this battle.

Totally.

Because it's before them every step they take. So I want to say that what we've got to do is really help them identify feelings, because then the next important thing to do is communication and talking about what happened to them, both of them. It's not just the partner that's traumatized. Now that he has some level of sobriety, we ask for 90 days before they start the disclosure and the emotional impact letter and. And the restitution letter. He needs 90 days just to begin to clear his addictive fog and then be able to go through the process of telling her the truth if she wants it. Yeah, some women, very few. But some women say, I don't want a disclosure. I don't want any more of that in my brain. And that's fair, too. Yep. But I do say, guys, that after a discovery, the woman should be in the driver's seat. And that means she should be able to let him know what her boundaries are, what her limits are, and he needs to respect that at all costs.

That's good.

Yeah, I think that's awesome. You need to coin that phrase. Use your wheel to help you feel. Put that on a T shirt, on a mug. You know, as I think about this question, Trevor and Carol, how do we come alongside a spouse that we've wounded? And for me, what was so key is what you already said, Carol. That nonjudgmental responsiveness I found for me, I had to really consciously work on turning down my defensiveness dial, because when my wife would communicate emotions, how it was making her feel, I would be listening for facts, and I would start to defend facts because she might say something like, when you were looking at pornography, it made me. I felt like, you're having an affair. You were cheating on me with all these women. And factually, this part of my brain, like, whoa, you know, that there wasn't physical. I never touched him. Like, blah, blah. And as soon as I would enter into that, I could just see my wife's whole demeanor, like, shut down hard. And it's like, what. And what I learned over time and paying that dumb tax was that I was invalidating what she felt because I was defending what I thought to be true. And I had to just let go of that, to let her vent, to let her experience and to receive it in that non judgmental way to say, wow, I can't believe that's how I made you feel, and I'm so sorry. And. And recognizing whether I thought it was factually true or not wasn't going to help her process the emotions and get to a place of. What she needed to recognize in me is that I was receiving what she said as truth. To say, if that's the way I'm making you feel, I believe you. I believe that's what you're experiencing, and that's horrible. Rather than defending like, oh, well, it's not that bad. And I think when someone has struggled with addiction, there are still those echoes of minimization and rationalization that are hard to let go of. And so when we're trying to help our spouse heal if there's any hint of us still rationalizing or minimizing it, it's going to shut down a conversation so fast. And especially if our spouse is trying to share the emotional impact, we have to just let them get that out to us in a very non judgmental way, because then we can enter into. Okay, how do we help you and me make sure this never happens again?

Well, yeah, and I think it's even an indication of the addictive cycle and pattern that we have in our life because when things get hard, we find an escape or a way to solve it quickly. And this process of healing and restoration is not a quick process. And so when I start to see pain and emotion, you know, what I perceive to be negative emotion coming from my spouse, okay, I want to solve it really quick because that's how I've trained myself to act, that I need to find some way to fix this really quickly. And I like what you say, Carol, because I've heard it in a similar way that restoration happens at the pace of the betrayed partner, not of the recovering spouse. And I think that that's one of the consequences of this situation happening. But then also a really important piece for an addicted, struggling spouse to maintain is that this is not going to go at your pace. Even if your recovery is crushing. It leaps and bounds over a short period of time. That restoration process is always going to lag behind.

Well, and you know, you mentioned that, and that is what was so perplexing to the addicts that I worked with because I gave them the 10 recovery tools and they got fast. Now we know they can get better fast. It's actually maintaining that over a long period of time, but they got better fast. And they were so happy that they had found relief and that they were doing well. And she was still in the fetal position on the floor because she wasn't getting the support she needed and he didn't know what to do for her. And so, you know, earlier you both mentioned communication. And I know that the two most important skills at the beginning of this work is reflective listening. For him to reflectively listen, because that keeps him from defending his job, is just to repeat back what he heard her say. Yeah, and. And that's in helper heal. And then the second thing is avr. And AVR is an empathy formula that teaches men to acknowledge the issue, the challenge or the problem, validate the primary feeling. Because they'll want to say, I know you felt sad, lonely and angry, but I want them to pick the one that's the primary one. And then reassure, humbly and with humility, reassure her of the things that you're doing to get on the right track, to be on the right track, to be a recovered addict. And when you combine A for acknowledge, V for validate feelings, and then R for reassurance, it brings down the defensiveness. And that's what's so exciting about the formula. But it is hard to, it's hard to learn. I actually have a certification program teaching these skills to, to coaches and counselors. I've taught over 140 of them. And it's called Urkham, the early recovery Couples Empathy Model. And it, it says you can't jump into therapy when discovery has occurred. You got to learn the skills to be able to communicate and find safety. And so that's the other shout out that I want to give. And that's to AppSats. You know, I'm on the faculty for AppSats, the partner sensitive program to help her be safe. And I'm on the faculty for itap and they organize and certify certified sexual addiction therapists. And what I absolutely believe is that we are all pioneers in this field and we are just now learning how to do this work. And when you know better, you do better. And App Stats really was the premier organization that said, and I explained this to my guys, when partner betrayal has occurred, she needs to get safe and stabilized and he needs to help her with that process. And then what helped them heals. And Urkham says is once she stabilized and that can take 12 to 18 months minimum for her to really be able to breathe and feel better about their situation, like they're on the road, the pathway to hope. And after that occurs, there's this second phase called grief, mourning, anger and loss. And that phase, actually absence doesn't put anger in there. I put anger in there because like you said earlier, the women, the partners need to externalize their feelings in safe ways. Many a partner has come in to see me with her husband or without and said, I'm going crazy. I don't know what's wrong with me. He was carrying the laundry in front of me and I just wanted to kick him down the stairs. That's not me, Carol. I don't do that. What is wrong with me? And we know when that amygdala in the back of the brain gets triggered, she's going to go into fight flight or freeze. And more often than not, fight is a big part of partner betrayal. And we got to calm that part of her down. So they can figure out ways of hearing each other and connecting.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. We're big, big fans of appsats and many of us on staff now have taken that initial training for, you know, for the non counseling crow, for those of us that just want to be equipped. And much like we've recommended the PSAP training through itap, we've recommended that people check out appsats. And I know there's a lot of vowels being thrown around here, so that'll be in the show notes. All on the show notes if you need more information. I get that a lot. What's itap? What's it and why does it have two eyes? Isn't that misspelled?

We asked that question too. Yes.

All acronyms. So, coach Carol, here's a great moment for you to put on your coaching hat because this is, I think, a really challenging situation that comes up.

Yeah.

And couples are just kind of floundering with. I don't even know how to think about this area of my life because when a. When discovery happens and a wife feels very unsafe, she may be feeling like, we're never going to have sex again. I will never feel safe enough to be sexually intimate with my partner again. And so. And let's maybe push off to the side because we all know there are situations where that is a very legitimate reality of the behaviors that have happened. And that couple won't be together long term. The marriage won't survive. So acknowledging that there are situations like that, I think in this situation, it's more where the couple has determined or believes they'll be staying together, that they'll be working together to make the marriage work. But the betrayed spouse just feels like, I will never feel safe enough to have sex again. What is your encouragement or just direction and coaching when someone is in that place? How do you help them as a couple navigate that?

Mm.

Well, the many, many, many partners that I've worked with really come in all sizes, shapes, and situations about sex. I mean, sometimes a woman will have sex that night after discovery because she wants to know she's love and desire.

Yeah.

But you're right. When they're in that safety and stabilization spot and they can't feel safe, the last thing they want to do is have sex because they don't trust him and trust is such an important part of sexuality and. Or they're afraid that he's going to compare her to the pornography he watched, to the women he cheated with and. And to all the events that played into his sexual addiction. So what I Do is very much what Dr. Jill and I'm sorry, Bill and Ginger Baca do. And that is we look at sexual integration really slowly, and we make sure our bases are covered in the other areas of intimacy. You know, we make sure that they're feeling emotionally intimate, and they're feeling physically intimate. They can at least sit on the couch together. And she can tolerate him rubbing her leg, and she wants to rub his, too. You know, most women, they really want sex. They want that touch, they want that connection. They're just afraid. So we really have them talk about those fears. And then I give them assignments to slowly work on meeting their emotional, their physical, their social, intellectual, sexual and spiritual needs. And I find that when they do that, then we can really talk about what are their greatest fears about sex. Well, as he gets healthier, he's able to say, you know what? You're right. I was turned off by the normal. I was turned off by our relationship because I wanted that. My head was in a very compulsive place. And we all know, guys, don't we, that sometimes wondering what's out there was more arousing than the actual going and seeing porn, getting to a prostitute, going to a massage parlor. But once he's cleared his brain and he's in this process of helping her heal, he wants that because most men make the choice not to masturbate, right? They don't want to masturbate because then that brings out the fantasies back in their head of what they had before, and they are dimming that down in their brain. And so we do want them to connect. And maybe I advise spooning for six months before they even begin to. For one of them to just lay on top of the other person without sexuality, we have to re enter this very, very slowly. And then I always say to her, you know, if you don't feel safe but his recovery is solid, then I'm going to ask you to stretch out of your comfort zone and reframe sex as a gift of closeness that you're giving him. Not sexuality, but closeness, because he's starving for that. And if you can figure out ways to bump up that closeness, you're on the road to having sex again. Now, that being said, I also know that people can live without sex. And so if he's so traumatized that she can't even fathom, and it goes weeks in the months, in the years, into decades, then he has to decide what is he going to replace for sexuality? And that might be spending extra time with the grandkids that might be them doing mission work together. I mean, for the rare couple that can't have sex, they're not doomed, Doomed and gloomed. They can find other ways to maintain intimacy without sex.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great. And I would just encourage our listeners that, you know, Coach Carroll's words to that spouse of, you know, stretching your comfort zone to provide closeness for him really presumes health and sobriety being established on his side. Because there are situations we hear about where he's not safe because relapses continue to occur, boundaries are ignored. There's just not health being established. And I think in that situation, like, you're not obligated to make him feel close when he's not working on health for you either. So be aware that that's in a situation where the couple is really working together, there's progress being made. I love that advice so much, Coach Carol. That was really good.

Well, and I think even as someone who's listening, who maybe is the recovering spouse, that's not permission for you to push that and to use that as a reason to get sex with your spouse. That's why having Carol the coach or a clinician or a therapist or someone walking alongside you, who's the expert, that's something that they can help you process through together as a couple. So don't feel like we're handing you a baton that you can go, you know, beat over the top of your head your spouse. Like, that's not what we're saying. This is. You know, you're talking about a closeness in a relationship that's in the rebuilding phase, not one that's just looking for excuses to be physical.

Well, it really does require a rewiring of that man's brain because we live in a society that has reinforced what you were just talking about, Carol. The. The novel, the new, the unique, the different, the out of the ordinary. And the brain is wired to be attracted to those things because it does create neurologically a unique chemical hit of, wow, that was new and different. But it's, you know, it's like chasing the golden calf that you can never catch. It's always further ahead of you. And that's what addiction is driven by. And I think for a lot of people that have walked through sexual addiction, there has to be that reality of I may still be battling that fear of missing out, that if I only have this commitment to my spouse, I'm going to miss out on all this stuff that's in our world. And the unique and the knowledge all that. That is the garbage that is in our world. And until we, I think, face honestly that's not what I'm after and let go of that, we're really going to be challenged to make the commitments we need to in our marriage. So just to encourage listeners to really face where might we be bought into some of what our society puts in front of us all the time? Because it's not healthy and it won't help us in our marriages at all.

Yeah, well. And you know what I recommend oftentimes I love the disclaimer on that, that, you know, I feel like a partner's in the driver's seat with sexuality and that puts great pressure on her because, A, that's never necessarily happened, and B, partners are very, very naturally empathetic, and they know that sex was a big part of their relationship. Maybe not so much when he was an active addiction, because he substituted that. But what I do tell partners is, you know, you really have to set the bar on intimacy by deciding what is it that the two of you want in your intimacy pyramid? I have a pyramid that I teach that Dan Drake and Janice Cottle created, and it came out of their disclosures, disclosure books. And it says their intimacy tower pyramid is safety and truth need to be on the bottom. And after safety and truth, they need to. The couple needs to feel that honesty in all situations has occurred. And, you know, we know that if he's not honest about taking the trash out, it will send her back to, if you'd lie about this, you're going to lie about any everything. And so then when they can find that communication is at the next rung and vulnerability is at the next rung, and then intimacy. Now that's their pyramid that they think is so helpful for couples. I, of course, have taken from their pyramid, and I say, yeah, you've got to have that honesty and truth, but you also have to have empathy. You have to be able to understand and put yourself in her shoes as well as she does his. But that comes down the road, not at the beginning. And then consistency needs to be a part of that intimacy. He's got to be consistent so that he shows her that he's safe. And when there's that kind of safety, then there can be that vulnerability. And that may mean just, I know you probably don't even probably want a PG podcast, but taking off her clothes in front of them, you know, everything is typically shut down for a partner. And when she is sexually shut down, she's afraid of setting that off. In him, in any way, shape, or form, and even in herself. So I would highly recommend that you, all, your listening audience, put together your own pyramid of what is important at the basis or foundation for your relationship. What would come next? What would come next? What would come next? With the point being the intimacy one.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Great advice. Sex is the outcome, not the foundation.

Yeah. And if we're talking about being pg, we've already used the master the word masturbation, like, you know, five or six times. So we're. We're well into the 13 range here. But Carol, just, you know, talking about empathy, and this is a question we get a lot from struggling or addicted spouses all the time, is how do they help their partner through a trigger? They see it happen. They know what's happening. How do they help their betrayed partner get through that trigger?

Well, I ascribe in all of my books to Dorit Reichndahl and Janice Cottle that did the trigger. Busting CPR for relational rescue. And that is really. That involves him. You know, when he sees that something's up that is supposed to go out in the garage, he come up to her and he say, hey, what's going on? And if a woman's triggered, many times, she won't want to talk about it.

Yeah.

And then he can say, are you triggered? It looks like you might be triggered. And if she will at least give some acknowledgement of that, then he needs to validate it and say, well, it looks like it's a really big trigger. And I know that my past has caused that trigger. Because the truth is, women get triggered for no reason at all. Something set off an unconscious response, and she doesn't know why she's triggered. Or it can very be very clear. You know, he went to the grocery store or the hardware store, and she looked at the calendar and realized that the discovery date, it was day after tomorrow. And all of a sudden, she goes into that terrible angst of what that day was like. So it may be external, it may be internal, or it may be sensory. You know, she may hear a song on the radio that was there for favorite song, or she may hear a song on the radio that, as she looked at his text, the affair partner referenced as being their song. So when a trigger occurs, he needs to acknowledge that his past has caused that and that he's right there with her now and that she is safe. Now, again, if he is not working, impeccable recovery. He can't use those lines because it's another lie yeah. But if he's really in good recovery, he needs to say, I'm here with you right now and I will do whatever it takes to bring you back into co regulation, you know, and help them heal. I talk about they are going to be co creating and co regulating together that. I don't want her to struggle through this by herself. There will be times she'll need to because she's at home by. By herself or she's in the car by herself. But when they can be together, I want him to sit with her and acknowledge that it was his past and to ask her how she's feeling and what she needs from him. Some women don't want to be touched. Other women don't mind if he rubs the nape of her neck. But the point is, a trigger will only last so long. And so I really encourage and educate them to understand that. And for her to say, nothing bad is happening right now. It's my body that's kept the score of the past and I'm okay and I deserve to be able to breathe through this and move on for the rest of my day. In Unleashing youg Power, the book I wrote for partners, I have all sorts of exercises that help her to regulate when he's not around or, you know, if they've divorced or separated or he's died or whatever. Because I do believe the partner's responsible for finding some ways to maintain safety and stabilization when her body has been activated for whatever reason.

Yeah, I love that acronym. Acknowledge, Validate, reassure.

Totally.

What a great tool. I'm gonna borrow that. I'm gonna use it in my marriage. I'm gonna use it in group. And the thing I think I would encourage listeners with as well is if you are the spouse who has struggled with addiction, sexual behaviors bringing that pain into the marriage. I think the tool you really need here is patience. Because triggers, as you've brought up Coach Carol, they can come at any time. It could be the same trigger over and over. And I think in our mindset we can feel like, well, I thought we dealt with this. That was like, that was last month. Aren't you over it? Or again? That can be the internal response of again, the same trigger. How long? And I think as much as possible, that's to just to quiet those voices in your own mind. To not say, well, how many times will this happen and how long? Because in some ways, if we respond to that, we can, I think, play a part in perpetuating the trigger. Because if it happens and our response Is, again, why does that still bother you? I think it almost solidifies the trigger in our spouse. It affirms that, yeah, I'm not safe. And it has the opposite impact. So if you hear your own brain saying, again, why is she still stuck on this one, just take a deep breath and calm your own thoughts and do the AVR of acknowledge, validate, reassure, because that will help them kind of work through and see that, oh, it is safe to bring up this trigger with my spouse.

Well, and two, thinking about that, if you do feel like you need to process it, that's what's so great about. About being in a group, is that you then have your group members who you can call like, hey, this just happened. Can I process this with you? Here's how I'm feeling. Here's how I reacted to that trigger. Because it's easy to see a trigger as a problem to be solved in the moment. And I think what both of you are saying is that it's not a problem to be solved in that moment, and that AVR is definitely something to use for sure in the moment, but then also leverage the resources you have in group members as well, outside of that.

So, Carol. Oh, go ahead.

It's interesting that you said you like that acronym, because so many partners will say, what I need you to do is ABR me. Where's your abr? Because they. They want to be acknowledged. And when I tell my helper heal groups, because I have groups specifically that go through this curriculum, I tell them, if there's one thing out of this course that you will remember, I want you to remember to consistently say to her, I know that I caused this pain. I know my past behavior caused it. And I want you to know I haven't forgotten. And there's something about a man telling his wife that, but then is reassuring in and of itself that he hasn't forgotten. And he's taking full responsibility and accountability. And it seems so counterproductive, you know, especially when she's in an activated state. But when he acknowledges that it was his past or it was the addiction, because I really see them all very, very separately. When a man is working with me, whether it's in the group individually or as a couple, he's motivated to make this right, and he can never make it right. But what he can do is rebuild a relationship that has the things that he lost. The trust, the honesty, the safety.

Yeah. And I think sometimes her brain will hold on if she fears he's letting go and moving on and forgetting and her brain can feel like I have to hold on to this pain because he's moved on. And sometimes an addict, you know, a former addict, someone who struggled with addiction, their health can work against them if they bring it up to their spouse, like, I'm so much better. I'm doing great. That was so last year. We've moved on, we're better. It's no longer a big deal. And her brain is fearful for a long, long time that the other shoe is going to drop. I'm going to get hurt again. And when she sees that you've moved on and forgotten or feels like you've forgotten, I think it doubles down her brain going, well, then I have to hold on to this because I will have to protect myself. He's not helping protect me. So men, when you enter into that moment, say, I know how much this hurt. I know I was responsible. I will own that. And I'm not going to forget. It's always going to be important to me to make this change. It then communicates to her brain, it's okay for you to let go. It's okay for you because I'm not going to forget. I'm not going to let go of being vigilant in this area.

Yeah.

Well, I forgot to tell you the most important aspect of that AppSat's model, and that is the restoration of self. And in Urkham, we call it post traumatic growth. And I promise you that as a couple, you can get to post traumatic growth. But to speak to your point, Trevor, I think maybe it was Nick. What I know is that oftentimes he doesn't feel like he deserves post traumatic growth. He really has been traumatized by what he did, and he's afraid to get healthy and stay healthy and show her that for fear that he doesn't really deserve it. So part of post traumatic growth is really being able to, as a couple, figure out how you're stronger and what you've learned from this horrible ordeal that nobody would have asked for.

Yeah.

Then how to give back. And that is where I want my addicts and partners as couples to go. You know, I'm a mental health therapist of 43 years, and I've been a coach for over 15. And I really believe that people can heal from this if they work together.

Amen.

Yeah. Okay, so we've talked about this a number of times as a central piece, this communication aspect of all of this. And for some couples, and I would say maybe a lot of couples, after discovery, especially in this recovery and healing process, Every time they try to communicate, it ends up being a fight. Like, it just ends up getting out of hand. And it's about this healing and recovery process. So do you have suggestions for couples to help strengthen their communication and find ways to make that every conversation they have doesn't end up becoming a fight or a battle?

Yes, I do. That is ultimately to practice those relational skills and help her heal. And help them heal. The reflective listening. And for the first year, reflective listening should be only the addict listening to the partner. She's got that much stored up energy now. You think, oh, my gosh, well, that will never. They'll never be able to meet in the middle again. But the truth is, once she really feels heard, and that really only takes about six months, she will start engaging him to understand him better and to know what his thoughts are. So I would say use reflective listening. Of course, I want them to use abr, and I want them to practice skills in the book like mirroring, and that is really breathing the same pace as your partner or letting her speak for three minutes and then repeating back exactly what you heard her say so that she knows she was heard. And that brings down the conflict. The important thing is when there is conflict, he's got to stay out of shame. He's got to remember that he's helping her heal. And even if she jabs him a couple of times, that's not because she doesn't love him. That's because she's poking him to make sure he's going to respond with empathy, kindness, compassionate.

Yeah.

And I would say get us. I would say get a specialist who can help you with this.

Yep.

But they have to know early recovery couple skills. Again, if they jump into the meat, we got a problem. And couples can practice well and help them heal. There's all sorts of exercises they can do. But if he's looking at help her heal, he needs to maybe be able to write out his willingness list of what he's willing to do to make her feel safe.

Yeah.

And read it to her and ask her if there's anything she would add and practice that willingness. That's what I'd say.

Yeah. I can't underscore enough too, how valuable in my story, and I've seen for many couples it is to have planned communication around this topic. Because if the only time you are talking is when she's triggered or when you've said something stupid or there's been a reminder that, hey, we have to deal with this, or, you know, you're on Your way to the counseling appointment and you're both kind of amped up. Yeah, it's going to be kind of stress induced. But if, you know, like Carol brought up like Thanos or some of those check in sheets that she has five nights a week. If you know, okay, every weeknight at 10pm after the kids are in bed, we're going to take 10 minutes in our bedroom or on the couch and we're going to walk through this list and we're just going to communicate. And there's something about it being kind of this planned, non stress filled opportunity that we're going to start to learn the language of each other's emotions and experience that I think really can become the building blocks for those moments when she is triggered or you have said something stupid. And it is a little bit more of a conflict. If you don't have the tools or foundation in place before that, it will always be a fight. So have those planned opportunities where you just know in a safe structure using one of these tools. For my wife and I, it was the faster scale. We're going to communicate what's going on and that really can build your skill in this area.

Yeah, um, it's just really clear too. You know, I think a lot of addicted or struggling spouses in this situation feel like they have no control, feel like they don't have a way to help this process. And it's so clear from our conversation that we do, we can be empathetic. We can push into emotional intimacy with our spouse. We can beside just working on our recovery, which is such a huge aspect and element to all of this. There are things we can do and we can practice to improve us as a person, our communication and our relationship with our spouse. And Carol, I mean, if you would be willing to, we would love to have you back on again. This has been a really great conversation. We love your work. We love just what you have to offer. And so thank you so much for your time and for the work that you do just being with us today. Thank you.

Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure and I love to talk to men in recovery in good, solid recovery because it shows. Thank you so much.

That's awesome. Thank you so much. Ken Girl. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.