305 - Let's Talk About Divorce w/ Andrea Rogers

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping.

You take back your life from unwanted.

Sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hey there. I'm your host, Ashley Jamison, and you are listening to episode 305 on the Pure Desire podcast, Women's Takeover. Here joining me, as always, is my beautiful co host, Heather Cole.

Hey.

Hey.

Happy to be here again. This was a really fun episode.

Yeah, I really enjoyed this episode and having Andrea on, and I remember meeting her at the Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit last year. Yeah, yeah, it was last year. And it was just nice to hear somebody have a healthy perspective around divorce. Because although that's not a topic that anybody wants to navigate, you know, I don't think people ask for divorce. And it's definitely a sensitive topic within the church culture. And people can have varying viewpoints and beliefs on what constitutes a biblically, you know, allowed divorce. But regardless of how you see it, regardless of what you believe, the fact is a lot of our men and women are going through divorce. And even if they're going through divorce, we still want to walk alongside people, whether they're reconciling their marriage or going through a divorce. That our goal is to help people be whole and healed and see that Jesus still loves them and that they can live a healthy life regardless of what another person's choice is. You know, sometimes I get women that come to me and divorce wasn't their choice. They say, my husband left me, and I want to be in group, and I want them to go to group. And then we just help them navigate their betrayal through that group process, even though they're getting divorced. So I just really appreciated having this conversation today and bringing it to the light. Cause it's kind of like. Like another one of those topics that you're afraid if you talk about it, you're giving people the green light to go do it.

Right. Yeah. And I think that she did such a great job of really just practically laying it out the way that her story unfolded. And it wasn't something that she pursued in, like, this angry or emotional way, but that she just really, I don't know, was thoughtful and intentional, but just recognized that. That her marriage was hurting her, that her marriage was destroying her. And I think that that's. Sometimes what we don't recognize in the church, is that we don't. We say that, well, even if your husband is abusing you. Right. That's not biblical grounds. Well, who gets to decide that? You know? And so I think that she did a really good job of just laying out some really practical tools but also a biblical foundation for why sometimes divorce is an option, a healthy option for women.

Yeah, I really appreciated her vulnerability. So we have a really great episode for you with Andrea today. And but before we get into that, we have a couple things to go over. If you don't subscribe to her podcast, do it now. You can subscribe to the podcast or watch full episodes on YouTube. We're on all major platforms and please give us a review because it helps more people find us and the this message that we're trying to share today. Second, follow us on social media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, instagramureduredesirepdmi, and if you like to consume video content, the full episode on YouTube, Pure Desire Ministries, is available. And I think this is a good. This is a good episode to talk about our new Betrayal and Beyond material. Because if you are getting divorced and it's. And most of the women that come to us are getting divorced because there's been some kind of trauma or betrayal or something like that, we often get people saying, well, I'm not with my husband. Is it going to make me feel bad to be part of group? And I can't exactly answer that question. But the material itself, we did do a good job, I think, of trying to make it applicable to no matter for you and your betrayal. So can you kind of talk about how a woman who maybe is facing divorce or has faced divorce could benefit from the material?

Yeah. So the new Betrayal and Beyond really is focused on healing your trauma experienced through sexual betrayal. And really it's about healing you. I mean, we, like you've said, we always want to heal a marriage when that's possible. But even when it's not possible, a betrayed partner still needs healing for herself. She still needs to recognize the trauma that she's feeling in her brain and her body and then also have the tools that she needs to pursue health. And so I think that Betrayal and Beyond really is a great first step for women who have experienced betrayal. But also, even if you're facing divorce, it still could be a really good tool for you.

Yeah, when I went through it the first time, I realized I had all my unprocessed trauma from the twins dad. And so a lot of my answers were like, l for this person, J for this person. But what it showed me is that I dragged a bunch of that unprocessed trauma into my current marriage. And so it's really important to go through something like Betrayal and Beyond, you know, if you've experienced that. All right, well, here's our time with Andrea Rogers and our conversation on divorce. Andrea, thank you so much for being here today and diving into this topic of divorce with us.

I am looking forward to this conversation.

Good. Okay. Well, for our listeners, we're very excited to have our guest here today because Andrea is a board certified life Coach and just 20 years experience walking alongside people. You're a certified partner coach with ABsats, and I didn't know that you were also a board member with appsats. I was really surprised and excited to see that when you're not coaching, you're teaching the Bible, you're ministry leader, and you have four beautiful children, which I can relate to you on that. And I would love to hear even more about how old your kids are. And sure, we'll get into that as we dive into the episode.

Yeah. So let's just jump in and so tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yes. So I am a. Like I said, I'm a board certified coach. I work in the space of mental health. So anything that's impacting someone's quality of life, that's keeping them from being their best selves. When people say, what do you do? That's where I work. So if, if you know that there's a you that you envision that you're not quite living out, then I want to help you get there. So a lot of that is through working with betrayed partners. Betrayal shatters your sense of self and who you are. And so that's what led me through my own journey to go back and get my certification to be an absence coach. And yes, I've been on the board for a year and a half, really enjoying that experience. Experience. I also work with men who struggle with problematic sexual behavior. I work with couples, so I do a wide range of things. But all of my work is about helping people to become the best version of themselves.

I love that.

Yes, me too. Wow, that's really good. Just that representation. Because I know even just for me, in the last few years, I've learned more and more about how damaging betrayal trauma is. And going through the abstats training, that was really eye opening to me. It's not that I didn't know it. It just put a lot of language to what I experienced and what we see. It gave it language and so that it's really good work. Well, okay, so I feel like I need to start this off in this episode because we'll probably all interject a little things. And this just so happens that all three of us in this room have been divorced. And so I want to say that pure desire is restoring marriages. We, we. We are all about the couple. We are all about restoration, when that can happen. And at some point in all of our journeys, you know, there was that. That couldn't happen, and there was divorce. So hear me say we're not this room full of women promoting get divorced. And this is how it looks like. And this is what you do. We, we are for restoration, if that's possible. We're for healing. But also there's a reality that divorce is a reality. And just like sexual addiction, we can't shame. We can't shy away from it as a church or even as a Christian organization, because we might sound like we're promoting go out and divorce your husband if he makes a mistake one time or go out and divorce your wife. We need to talk about it. Cause it's a reality. We need to help people know what it looks like to be a Christian, a believer, and maybe struggling through some trauma and possibly getting a divorce. Because life is complex. And that was one of the things that held me up when I got divorced, was I felt so ashamed. I didn't feel. I didn't feel like I was a qualified Christian to do anything anymore. Because nobody talked to me about what it looked like to. To do messy with God and still be a good person that can help contribute to others, even though I've gone through these things. So there's my little soapbox. So how does someone with all of that said how. How would somebody know if it's time to start exploring getting divorced? Because that's a question I get a lot, and I always feel like I cannot answer. But what guidance, like, what do you say to people that come to you and they're like, should I divorce?

Yeah, it's. It's so complicated and complex, and there are so many things that factor into that decision. But one thing that I consistently say is that if the restoration of the marriage contributes to or leads to the destruction of the person, then it is time to think about leaving. We were created. God did not create us tied to another person. Yes, he said it's not good for man to be alone. But that wasn't just talking about marriage. It was talking about our need for community and journeying through life together. And when you are in a relationship that is destroying you as an individual, that is not what God intended when he had. When he created marriage. So you think about Jesus in the temple, right when he came in and they had the money changers in there, and they were doing all sorts of things that defile the temple. Jesus comes in and he starts, you know, turning over tables and saying, this is supposed to be a house of prayer. Right? He was about restoring what God intended. And when you have a marriage that does not reflect what God intends, where there's abuse and repeated adultery, and I'm talking about all kinds of abuse, you know, we, we know with physical abuse, it's like, yes, but we cannot underestimate what emotional and psychological abuse can do to destroy a person. So when a person is being destroyed, when the beauty that God intended to be reflected with Christ in the church is not exemplified in a relationship, then it is time to think about getting out.

Okay, but say what you said in the very beginning, it was like when the restoration of the marriage leads to the destruction of the person. I really liked what you said there. And also I love how you touched on the abuse part because, you know, so many people say, well, if it was abuse or an all in, all out flesh affair, I'd have permission to leave. And you just touched on that so beautifully. That abuse is not just physical. It's not, you know, it's, it's not just verbal. There's psychological, emotional, you know.

Yeah, that is very good. But that goes back to, I think that a lot of women, they don't know that. They don't know that what's happening to them or what's happening in their marriage is abuse. And I've been in group with women and people are sharing their stories, and you can even see it on their face when they get to a point where they're like, well, that happens to me. But I never put it in that context. And I know I probably have shared this before, but. And I was really young when I first heard this, but there was a woman, I was visiting some friends and a woman came by and she was going through a really nasty divorce, a Christian. And she said her comment was, well, I just thought that all husbands hit their wives because my dad hit my mom. And so when I got married and he started hitting me, I just thought, well, this is marriage. This is what it looks like. I think that there's a piece of this that women don't necessarily recognize. What other types of divorce, what that or what other types of abuse, what that looks like?

Yeah, absolutely. There's a, there's something called the power and control wheel, which is very helpful. It, it lists all the different types of abuse that exist, and it's something I like to use with my clients, I pull it up with them because some people are. Who wants to be an abuse victim? Nobody, nobody wants that label. But when you start to pull up and you show, okay, this is what is considered psychological abuse. This is what is considered emotional abuse. Here's what's considered considered spiritual abuse. And you take away the, hey, this is about you. But like, no, here's what the research has shown and do you see any of these reflected in your relationship? It's very eye opening, especially for women. Because to your point, most of us have probably experienced abuse growing up, but it wasn't called that. Right. So when you, when you've had a situation in your home, abuse can be normalized. And it's important that if we're going to help people be healed and whole, that we really equip them with the language and understanding of what abuse is.

Yeah. And I think two, we need to point out that men can be in an abusive relationship too, which I know, I'm sure you can agree that it's just very underreported because I was in a phone call recently with a, with a male partner that, you know, it's like, okay, you realize this is what's going on. You know, we have our abuse inventory and our betrayal and beyond material, which really again is eye opening. And I feel like I always have to prep the women, especially if they have, you know, pretty decent non abusive in all areas, kind of husbands. And then I'm like, okay, the reason why we're going through this is because I never want to assume somebody doesn't have abuse. And so I kind of just like set the tone that these are. I just want you to be aware of all forms, whether it applies to your husband or somebody else that, that you know, just to make you aware. But every time after they go through, they're like, I had no idea there was so many check marks because it almost goes hand in hand with addiction where there's going to be some kind of abuse of whether it's financial or intellectual, being told you don't know what you're talking about, you're being paranoid, you're being overprotect or you know, you're, you're jumping, you're acting crazy, you know, and basically telling somebody not to trust their own instinct. That's a form of intellectual abuse. So. Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a lot.

Yeah, it is for sure. So in your situation, what boundaries did you put in place that were most helpful to you? And I'M sure that. And I guess to a bigger question, not only for you, but what do you even see with. With the partners that you work with?

Yeah. I think one of the first boundaries that I encourage partners to make is about themselves. What do you want to be different on the other side of this? Right. So my first boundary for myself was that I was committed to my own care. I made a commitment to my own healing. So anything that pushed up against that, that pushed up against me becoming better, those were the things where I was really firm. And that included going to my groups, going to my counseling sessions, making sure that I took time away, that I held my spouse accountable for the things that I needed to feel safe. And so sometimes people want to set the boundaries so much around the other person. You know, I need you to do this, and I need you to do that. But what really promotes healing is what do you need as a person to heal yourself? What do you need to. To be safe? Because whether the relationship survives or not, you. You're going to be responsible for your own healing. And if all of your healing was contingent on another person's behavior, then you're left not only in that place of a victim, but you're left in that place of helplessness because you can't control another person. So my boundaries were around my own care, what I needed, asking for what I needed to feel safe. And what was really interesting was that one of the boundaries that I had set was that if my spouse did not stay committed to his recovery, then we would separate. So I wrote this boundary down, and I really encourage people to write your boundaries down, because here's what happened. Four years later, when we got to the point where we separated, I was doubting myself. Did I try hard enough? Could I have done more? Was there something else for me to do? And I found this workbook where I had written these boundaries down. And I was like, wow, four years ago, I said to myself that if I don't see this change, I'm going to ask for separation. So it let me know my decision wasn't emotional. It wasn't rash. It was a boundary I had set for myself three years, four years before. And it just gave me such a confidence again to trust myself that what I needed was right and appropriate for that time.

That's so good. Yeah. It makes me think of our recovery action plan and writing it down, because going through the ups and downs of living with an addict myself and having been divorced and remarried to another addict who's working on restoration and recovery so that's a different story. But the ups and downs. The nice thing about having that recovery action plan is I could go to the part where I said, if these are the things I need in order to function as a healthy human being, and mom and I can't be in a relationship with a liar, with a cheater. These are the things I need. And so then when push comes to shove and there's another relapse or something like that, I get to remind myself and my spouse, we wrote these things down when we were in a healthier mindset. And now you're in your addiction mindset, I'm in my trauma. And so we shouldn't be making decisions out of this mindset. We had good, wise counsel when we made these plans. We both agreed to them when things were all up and up and happy. And so we need to follow them. And it's nice to have that to fall back on instead. You know, instead of just make, like you said, making an emotional decision. And one example that I give to the women in my groups and that I needed to realize was because I would try to fix things like, oh, I just want things to go back to normal. So I'll just jump back into having sex, because I just want things to be normal. And if he. If he has sex, then he won't be mad. And I don't like this tension. And one, I had to start being okay if he was mad, right? Because I didn't do it. You did. So it's not my problem if you're mad. I mean, I don't want you to be mad. I want you to be working toward recovery. But I tweaked it by saying, if you don't. If you relapse, you don't get sex for two weeks, right? Instead of saying that, it was like, well, what do I need when he relapses? I feel like this. This is how I feel. This is how I feel about marriage. This is the trauma I go into. And how much time do I need not having sex to try to heal from that? Or how much time will it take for me to build trust back up again? Because I don't want to have sex with somebody I don't trust. And that creates a whole slew of issues in and of itself. And so just. It could be the same thing, but the way that I get to it is through, like, what you said, what I need, not just putting these arbitrary. You know, if you do this, then this happens, but it's coming out of what I need. To feel safe and what do I need in our marriage?

Yeah, the language is so important. And we just recently finished an update to our Betrayal and Beyond curriculum, which is for betrayed partners. And it really was important, I think, in that process to help women understand that boundaries are for you. You know what I mean? My boundaries are for me so that I feel safe, so that I feel stable. But it does seem to be kind of this work in progress, because initially, especially when you have women in group who are in crisis, they're more focused on, he needs to do this and he needs to do this and he needs to do this, and really just kind of changing that mindset to say, what do you need? What do I need? What do I want in this relationship? What's going to help me to even feel safe, but also to focus on my health, you know, and what does that look like? And so it. It seems to be kind of this ongoing training for a lot of women. But. But I feel like once they get it, they get it, you know, and it even shows up in their language.

Well, we, you know, we don't do a good job in our society of teaching people, but especially women, how to set boundaries. In fact, we teach women not to have boundaries, to care for everyone else, to be available, to be the nurturers, the caregivers at the expense of self. And then this is especially true once you become a mom, once you, you know, and depending on where you go to church, if you get under some bad teaching, you know, this whole abandoned self, and you don't need to think about yourself and sacrifice. And, you know, the Bible does talk about those things, but. But not in that way. Jesus never abandoned himself. He. He cared for himself. He took time away. There are many places in the Bible where it talks about him getting away, going to what it called, like lonely places or isolated places to rejuvenate and recharge. And Jesus himself had boundaries. So the. The idea that as Christian, especially as Christian women, we don't need boundaries is very contrary to what's in the Bible.

Yeah. And it's okay. So dare I say, can I tread on these waters? I'm going to see how to word this carefully. One of the things with our new update is we, with the Betrayal and Beyond, we took on the Absatz teaching that they do, the multidimensional partner trauma model, and we went away from the codependent model, which all of this boundaries, I think it goes hand in hand with some of the teaching we had that if in the older kind of codependent mindset. Something you're doing or something you brought in from your family is really contributing to why your husband keeps relapsing or hurting you or having affairs or whatever it is. And we just really need to separate those issues that we're not going to dive into. Family of origin or marriage issues. When there's a trauma or an affair or a betrayal like this, we need to focus and give the women the tools they need to get through this betrayal, trauma or this affair that they did not cause and teach them how to respond in a way that's good for them. And. And that usually forces the addict to either change or leave or the spouse leaves. And that's where this whole topic is coming from. Of course, when you give somebody tools to be healthy and they say, I don't want to do this anymore, it's destroying my spirit, it's destroying my soul. I'm abusing my kids. I was really, like, aggressive with my kids when they were little because I was so messed up from the marriages I was in. And I just thought, oh, I'm just supposed to forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive. And all this unprocessed trauma is just, like, spewing out on my kids during the day. That is not a good situation. And so every once in a while, and I hope this doesn't happen with this episode, we'll get, you know, an angry spouse that's like, well, my spouse went through your material, and then she left me. And I'm like, I have so many other questions, like, did you change? Did you do work? Did you listen to what they needed? And so it is a shift, and it just comes with more education. But it is a shift that I think we have to make based off old teaching that sometimes was harmful. Even though it was well intended, most of the time, it's well intended.

I think that it's important to separate. And this is where the absence model comes in. Is that the addiction, the adultery, the infidelity, the abuse has nothing to do with what's going on in the marriage. If you are unhappy in your relationship or you're disagreeable, satisfied, you can go to counseling, you can join a support group, you can seek counsel from other people. You have lots of options besides going outside of the relationship. That is a violation of the covenant of the relationship. To go outside of the relationship. And to say, to make another person responsible for that choice is really unhealthy. So you could, you know, I. I say that betrayal is like. Like, let's say you have your marriage here. As a unit. And that marriage unit may be very damaged. It might be. Have fractures and cracks and things that you're working on, but betrayal is like a boulder that comes in and literally crushes the unit. So you cannot deal with whatever is happening in the unit until you deal with the boulder that's on top. It's like, I've got to remove this big boulder peace that is literally crushing the marriage first. And that boulder is not the responsibility of the person that's crushed. You know, the person who went outside the marriage brought that in. And so if you don't deal with that and you start talking about family of origin issues, in some ways you are blaming the person, the partner, for another person's choices, which actually continues that model of codependency which makes you responsible for another person. So it's like, even though people are saying, well, that's codependent behavior, you're reinforcing that idea of codependency by making the partner responsible for the, for the betrayer's choices.

Right? Yeah. I'm so glad we touched on that because life is so, so stressful, you know, and, and that's, that's where. When you are using sex or porn to cope and you want to blame it on your partner, oh, you just had a baby, or oh, you haven't been available because your brother died last year, and you're emotional. That is so wrong. And it's, it just shows that there's a lack of being able to. Not that John did that, you guys, even though he used kind of my real examples. I don't have a baby hidden somewhere. But even though those are very, very stressful things, and maybe they do take away from the sexual intimacy of a marriage, it just highlights that there's an inability to cope with life on the addict's part. Because these are normal, they're. They're sad and they're heavy, but they're, they're things that are going to continue to come your way. You are going to experience loss, you are going to experience death. You're never just going to get through a phase and then be like, okay, as long as nothing else happens. So it, it just comes down to the addict needs to get to the core of why they cope in those ways and how to cope with stressful things in a healthy way that honors the marriage and the partner needs to heal. And then after that, if there's still cyclical marriage issues about money and, you know, then let's get to the core of why we think that way. But it's so important to just let the healing from the betrayal trauma be what it is, and hopefully both partners get help so that a divorce doesn't have to happen. So back to kind of talking about divorce, that was my little rabbit trail. I felt the need to go down the next question. I did not do this well, I did not get my twins counseling when I divorced their dad. I divorced their dad when they were about 2 years old. But I always feel like their divorce happened when they were five, because that's when I got remarried. And that's when like a. That's when the court and it got real nasty. And I think most of the trauma happened when I got remarried to my current husband. And so this was 14 years ago. I've apologized to them that I didn't get them the help they needed. When I got divorced, I pendulum swing on my sexual addiction. So, like, would be on the train in church, and then I'd fall off the train and find myself like with a guy, you know, and then be back on. And then I also developed an eating disorder and, and OCD all in the same year. And I still have a little ocd, but Heather says if it doesn't disrupt my daily functions, I'm probably okay with that a little bit. But all these things just exploded. And so I didn't have the ability to even think or care for myself. I had nobody around me other than black and white church theology that I now am an unwed mother and been divorced. Nobody was around me to tell me to get counseling. And then I was afraid to get counseling because we were in this nasty, nasty custody battle. And so then I was afraid if I go to counseling, I'm going to look weak. I'm going to look like I can't handle my life, like I can't handle my kids, and I'm going to lose my kids. And so I didn't do them any favors by not getting them counseling. But when kids are involved, what do you suggest? What can you encourage parents to do so that maybe they hear something different than I, you know, did with my kids?

Yeah, I just. I have so much compassion for you sharing that because that's probably more common than you think. When your reality is shattered by betrayal and you are literally bleeding out, but yet you're still responsible for other human beings. You're going to make mistakes. I don't know how. You cannot. That would mean you weren't human. And to try to care for other humans who are relying on you for their safety and, well, Being while you are totally destroyed. That is one of the things that I would love for us to improve on just as a society and a recovery community, that we can come alongside, particularly women who are left to care for their children after betrayal because it's so devastating. And a lot of the focus goes on getting the person who did the betraying help. You know, getting them in inpatient or outpatient therapy, making sure that they're in a group. Meanwhile, you know, the partner is home bleeding out, but still having all of the responsibilities of caring for the home. So I would say first is to please have compassion on yourself. It is so hard to be a mom in our society. The expectations are unrealistic. But when you're a mom that's been betrayed and you're trying to heal from that, you have to have compassion for yourself. So that's the first thing. But the second thing I think that is most important is having age appropriate conversations with your children. They sense what's going on. They know. And this, this is true for anything, right? That your children are little wise sages. They know things inherently. You know, they see things and they have questions. And so when they say things like, mommy, are you sad? You go, oh, no, no, Mommy's not sad. No, Mommy is sad. I am sad. You know how sometimes you get sad when someone hurts your feelings? Well, I'm sad because my feelings are hurt. Right. And, and putting it in language that they can understand and also helping them know that they're not responsible for that, that you are an adult and you're going to take care of yourself. But that crying is normal when your feelings get hurt. Needing to rest your body is normal when you're trying to heal. Because what you're also doing is teaching them how to handle the challenges that they're going to face in their lives when they become adults. So if you model sucking it up, hiding behind closed doors, no, you don't need to bring them in on all of the details, but just enough to wait to where you're not gaslighting them, making them doubt their reality or think that they're crazy because they're like something's going on, right? Dad's on the couch, mom's in her room, or mom doesn't want to go outside and play anymore. She looks sad, her face is red. Mom's gone all the time when she used to be here all the time, right? All of these changes that are happening. And I would say one of the biggest things that I think was helpful for my kids as you Mentioned I have four. And so they were at varying ages throughout the process. But one of the things that I think made the biggest difference for them is once I realized that I was going to be getting a divorce, that we had been separated a couple of months and restoration was not going to happen, I sat them down. I was homeschooling at the time and had homeschooled for, you know, many years. I was a stay at home mom. So they were used to a certain structure and regimen. And I sat them down and I said, there are a lot of things that are about to change about our lives. I'm going to have to go back to work, which means I'm going to need to get a job. We're going to have to move. We'll probably have to sell some things. We had no money because, you know, my spouse chose to take the money away from us. So, so many things were changing so quickly. But I asked them, if I can keep one thing the same for you, if there's something that I can keep stable in your life, what would that one thing be? And I think allowing them to have a voice about what was really important to them just made such a difference in our transition. And I, I did talk to them. I offered them counseling, which can be hard to afford. So if you can't afford counseling, there's so many things on YouTube there, there are free webinars and things, there are books you can buy. The Gottmans have great books on raising emotionally healthy children there. I mean, there's just so many resources on the Internet now if you can't get to that counseling. But remember that you as a parent, God gave these children to you. And when he gave them to you, he equipped you with what you need to care for them. So praying for them and with them, you can't underestimate the power of just listening. Not trying to talk them out of or into anything, but just listening. Yes, that's really tough. Yeah, I can see that you're sad. I imagine that so hard. What else? And then doing things to make the hard things fun. So we had to move. We've moved multiple times since the divorce. But during those initial days, it's like, you know, while our, while our house is empty, we're going to have picnics, which was just a blanket on the floor, eating food in the living room, which we normally wouldn't do. We would, you know, somebody had to come look at the house. Let's go to the park, let's go hang out, let's Have Sundays, I made sure. And by Sundays, I mean ice cream sundaes. You know, things that you. You normally would say no to, but just finding ways to say yes. And I think a big thing was I committed to finding something funny every single night. So every night, we ended the night with what I called a funny. Be it a comic, a video, a joke. But infusing laughter into the heart situation really helped us to recognize, like, there's still good happening. Yes, we're going through this really hard thing, but we still have each other and we can still find joy in the midst of this.

That is such good advice. I mean, I feel like there was 10 things in there. Such good advice.

Oh, my gosh. I love that you said all that, because I'm sitting here listening to you and thinking about the things that I did with my boys when we were going through that really hard transition at first. And even things like getting to have dessert for breakfast, which, as a mom, it's like, no, we're never doing that. But it's like, yeah, okay, today we're going to do that, or we're going to play hide and seek in the dark. You know what I mean? Which seems a little bit unsafe. But we all had kind of these little flashlights and. But it was those kind of things that. That we still talk about today when we get together. And it makes a huge difference. Huge difference. Love that.

Yeah. And, yeah, you just spoke on so many good things. I think the thing that stood out most to me was just being transparent on their level. Whether it's divorce or adultery or cancer or whatever. The way that you, you know, helped articulate. Yeah, you know, I'm sad and it's okay. And, you know, that's all right. This is how this is normal. Because it does. It teaches them, you know, some point along the line, I learned that you don't be sad in front of people and you don't share your feelings. And I had to relearn that through this process and through the group process. And so I think that was really good advice.

Really good. So this next question is kind of two parts. So when telling your friends and family that you were getting divorced, what hurdles or common Christian pushback did you get? And so that's the first part. And then what can pastors and Christian leaders do to minimize shaming or traumatizing someone who's considering divorce?

Yeah, you know, it is so important that if someone tells you that they are being destroyed in a relationship in any way, shape or form, that you believe them I cannot tell you how many people questioned me and my choices. And by the time a person gets to the point where they're like, I'm going to divorce, they have already beat themselves up, down in every which way, and so they don't need that from other people. It's important that we trust people when they share their experience and not try to talk them out of it. When you look at the statistics on abuse and victimization, the percentage of people who lie about that is very, very small. If you want to be a safe person for someone that's going through divorce, especially due to betrayal, one of the biggest gifts that you can give them is to believe them when they share their experience, to offer encouragement and compassion. You know, my. My experience, my ex husband was beloved by my family. So it was also like they were experiencing the betrayal as well. And even as recently as last month, I had to talk to someone in my family about the way they were still romanticizing this person, how devastating that was to me, and how invalidating it was to my experience to know that I literally had to pull myself up and my children up from the devastation to really try to build them back into whole people. And to hear a family member still, you know, romanticizing who this person was, I pull that person aside and said, please stop doing that. It is so hurtful to me. And, you know, I get it. It's like, it's a shock when you've done life. I mean, we have been together for almost 25 years. So just as it was a shock to me to recognize this person was living a double life, it was a shock to my family. And so, you know, I have grace for them, but I also have to set boundaries to say, enough is enough. I cannot listen to you invalidate what I'm telling you. So if you are a family member of a person, I just say believe them. And then for church leaders, you know, I had two different church experiences, experiences which I love that God did this for me. So in one sense, I was in one church and they were. They didn't know what to do with me when I said I. I couldn't hold my husband's hand or wanted to go on a date with him, they just really couldn't understand that. So then I went to another church that they felt was better equipped to help me. And they basically called me the abuser because I was setting boundaries and putting my foot down and saying this isn't acceptable. And I was not mincing my words about what was happening. And so they told me That I was the abusive one. And when I tell you, like, I could probably still cry about that today because I was so vulnerable, I was hurting so badly that I wanted somebody to say, this is not right, that it's not happening to you. And I thought that my church would be the place to do that. So then contrast that with another church that I was just friends with. These pastors, I didn't even go to this church yet, but they. They were walking alongside me with what was happening. And when I sat down with them and another set of pastors and I said, you know, am I making the right choice? Am I? I do anything else? Both of them, two pastors said to me, if we looked up patience in the Bible, your picture would be there. You do not need to sacrifice any more of yourself for this person who is devaluing and disrespecting and degrading you. What you need to do is take care of you and your children. And they literally scooped us up. They helped us find a place to live. They helped us move. They provided for me when I couldn't buy Christmas gifts for my kids. And I wish that more churches would just be willing to believe partners when they say, I've got to get out. Nobody is running to the divorce court. No one is excited of, yes, let me be a single mom and struggle to raise these children and provide financially and rebuild myself. Yes, please give me that. No. When you look at the research, most partners want the family. So when they get to the point where they say, I can't do this, believe them, support them, ask what you can do to encourage them, uplift them, remind them that they are still a whole person, that God has a plan for their lives, and that there can be beauty. You know, God's redemption is not just through the restoration of the marriage, and it is the restoration of the individual. So even if the marriage survives, but like I said, the people in the marriage are destroyed, that's not God's best. Jesus came that we might have life and have it in abundance. Be whole. When the Bible talks about, do you want to be made? Well, it is about wholeness. So if I cannot be my whole self in a relationship, then that is not a place I want to be. And as a church, we need to not encourage people to divorce. But if a person gets to that point where they feel that that's where God is leading them, that we can come alongside them and help make that transition easier for them. Because divorce is hard.

It is. Yeah.

Hard.

I've been through it. And it is hard. And it's like you said, you're already in your deepest place of feeling like a failure, maybe, and beating yourself up and. Or maybe even, you know, for me, it was like, well, I chose badly in the first place because I went against what I knew I should have. You know, there's just so many things that you wrestle with. I think what you just said is a perfect lead into my next question, because where's that line of wanting to make sure that. That. Okay, so let's say a betrayed spouse comes to you, and they say, I just found out yesterday my spouse cheated, has been having affair for 10 years. I'm done. I'm getting divorced. Maybe the spouse does or doesn't want to try to get help and is saying, I can go through counseling. I can fix this. How much do you encourage somebody to go through something like counseling or like, group or something before they decide to go through divorce and not do it right when they're in their trauma? So what's that balance of, you know, supporting them through the decision they just made? But maybe the trauma is brand new and they haven't even processed it yet.

That's a great question. And, you know, this is something that I've learned even in my coaching, that I think maybe the trauma of going through the betrayal and my own healing has helped grow my capacity for humility on not trying to be an expert on another person's experience. So I don't need to talk them into or out of anything. What I want to do and what I encourage people to do is say, okay, how are you making this decision? Like, let's look at what's prompting you to make this decision. Do you feel like the emotional shock of the situation is leading you here, or is this in alignment with. With your values? Because some people, and I've seen this, some partners are so clear on their values. You know, they grew up in homes where parents had a healthy marriage, they had a healthy childhood. They really thought they were getting into a healthy relationship. And then the. The switch flips and they say, no. You know, for me as a person, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone that lies, that manipulates, that would disrespect me in this way. I feel like it would be totally dishonoring to myself and who I am and where I feel like God's leading me. Why would I want to try to talk somebody into going against what they value? I don't, because I'm not an expert on their experience. I don't know how God's leading them. So it's more about having a conversation of, let's be thoughtful about this. Is this an intentional decision? Let's look at, you know, pros and cons. And if I start hearing that I could never. This would never, you know, then that's usually around emotion. And I say, you know, a lot of things are possible, and here are some things that I've seen. Would that matter to you? What would you need to see? Or, you know, like, in my situation, this was very interesting because from the beginning, I was like, I'm out. I'm. I'm done. The. The depth of the betrayal was so deep that I was like, I cannot. I don't. I don't see how I could do this. But in my prayer time, I really felt like God saying, wait, wait. And in the waiting, what happened was that God was healing me. I was growing stronger. He was lining some things up where the person who took us in after the divorce, I didn't even know that person at the initial discovery. So could I have left and done things on my own? Yes. Do I think the trajectory of my life would have looked very different? Yes. So, again, not trying to talk someone in or out of what they should do, but just helping them to be thoughtful about the decision. This might be the right decision. What I thought was going to happen did happen, and it didn't happen in the timing that I thought. And God was still working in the midst of to that. So it's so important to sit down with someone and talk about their values, help them identify their needs. What do they need to be safe? Do they have people that they trust that could offer wise counsel? And then after weighing all of that, what would you decide to do? And if you think that, okay, I'm going to get out of this is so awful, I'm going to get out of it, and that's going to heal me. Right. That's going to stop the pain. That's the wrong reason to leave. Because whether you stay temporarily or permanently, whether you go, you know, right away or down the road, either way, you're going to have to do the work to heal. You're going to have to really get into, what did this do to me? You know, what are the stories that I've started to believe about myself as a result of this? What do I want to be different? You're going to have to do the healing work. So if you think leaving is going to solve the pain, it won't.

Yeah.

So just helping Somebody to be thoughtful about their decision is what. What I think is most important.

Yeah, that is so good. And especially when it comes to. Because I think that a lot of people, especially in the church for partners, they're not necessarily going to immediately go to counseling, you know, because there still is that kind of mixed message about our need for counseling, which I'm totally a fan of counseling. But I think even just having a safe friend that you can be honest about what's going on in your situation. Because I think that's the other problem is that for so many years, we put on a mask and we made it look like everything was okay. And then when your marriage falls apart and you start telling somebody that, well, we're getting a divorce, they're shocked, too. Because for all this time, you made it look so good. And you made everybody. You convinced everyone that you were the perfect family and had the perfect marriage. And so I think that even just having somebody who you can talk to about that, who can give you that wise counsel, even if it's not a counselor, but just somebody to walk through those initial processes, I think is so important.

Yeah.

Yeah. And maybe it's not that you made. I mean, I really believed I was in a happy relationship. I wasn't faking anything. Like, it was what I believed. I thought things were great, but again, I didn't have an understanding. It wasn't until a friend called it out to me, like, hey, I notice how different you are. Right. She was like, when you're away from your husband, you're this confident, outgoing, strong, secure person. But when you're with him, I see you really, you know, kind of being small and cowering. And she was like, you're just a different person when you're with him. And I thought, wow, I really am. But my programming, the message I have received was, this is what it meant to be a wife. This is what it means to be a Christian wife. So it wasn't that I was faking, but once I got educated on here's what healthy relationships look like and the importance of being able to be yourself, that if you have to sacrifice yourself for the relationship and the ways that I had been manipulated, I mean, this. The stories sounded true. Right. He was under a lot of stress. He was traveling. He was doing a lot for the family. On the surface, he did look like a great dad. But then when I peel back the layers of the onion, it was like, oh, that was all a facade. Right. And so, you know, some people are not faking it. And so to go back and say, here's what I thought was true. I mean, literally, I was leading Bible study on the power of forgiveness and how you can heal from. Because early in the relationship, you know, I was led to believe that he just had an emotional affair. So I was teaching on the power of God's restoration and forgiveness. And I, I really had to heal from where I felt like even God betrayed me. I was like, how could you let me stand up and teach these messages, you know, knowing that these things weren't true? So the, the shame of that, of feeling foolish for believing, you know, something that wasn't real is. Is really difficult.

Yeah. And something you said, you know, where you're trying to help them be just intentional and not emotionally running to get a divorce, where you said, you're either going to deal with that trauma now or later. Leaving is not going to be the, you know, answer to fix that. And, and so that's where some women will call us and say, well, can I go through betrayal and beyond if I'm already divorced? And I say yes, and go back and process the answers of when. Just kind of how it was happening when it happened. You know, you may have to tweak a few of the answers. And we did our best to guide, you know, and direct the women that may be separated or divorced. But if you've been divorced already, it, it's. It's not undealt with yet. And I hate to say that, like, oh, your, your boogeyman is still there, but mine morphed, you know, like, I had my. I had my trauma from my first husband, single for this many years, which looked like eating disorder, sexual addiction, ocd. And then when I got into my marriage, I was like, okay, have what I want. I have this Christian man. But I still had severe like hyper vigilance and suppressed anger issues and trust issues and things that were dramatically eroding my marriage under the surface. And then it wasn't until his addiction came out four years later that I was like, oh, wait a minute. And just, we need to clear all the rubble. And I realized it is so important to. You cannot just leave the situation. You have to take the time to go through that, whether that's counseling or going through a group and processing it. But yeah, I'm glad you touched on that.

Yeah, community is essential. I. If it were not for my groups, because it took me a while. I went through so many bad counselors as well. So it took me a while to find a good counselor, but thankfully I found a Good counsel group right away.

Right.

And those ladies I am still friends with today, I mean, you know, we. We called it the society that no one wanted to be a part of. It was like, got a knock on the door and look through the little glass and who's here? You know? But the. The connection that we had with one another, a place to be seen and heard and safe, is. Is what kept me going. So I really encourage people. I mean, I had never been in. Ever in my life. I showed up with my. I was like, okay. I got my Bible and my notepad, and they were like, no, no, no. You know, we don't take notes. It was like, I didn't even know how to be in a support group. But I. I'm so happy that I did.

Yes.

Do that, because now I understand the power of healing in community.

Absolutely. Yes. Same ditto. Echo everything.

Yes.

Yeah.

So for people who have experienced divorced, what work would you recommend for them before they enter into a new relationship?

We need a separate podcast to talk about this.

Okay.

Yeah, let me. Let me try to give a short answer. If you don't reclaim the parts of yourself that were stolen or lost in the relationship, you will constantly be seeking something outside of you to fill that void. So, again, on the journey, this is a journey about wholeness. So there are so many things that shape us into who we are. And I feel like when you go through betrayal, it shatters that sense of self. So now you have an opportunity to stay, to decide. Who do you want to be? Who do I want to be? And if you only know that, hey, this other person did this awful thing to me, and again, you know, they did that, but you don't stop and think, but what did that do to you? And now what do you believe about yourself as a result of that? If you don't do that healing work, you will constantly be seeking that validation, that affirmation from someone else to tell you who you are. So, you know, if you don't do anything else, it's like, you've got to get. Do the identity work, do be in touch with yourself, know what it feels like to be loved, so that when someone is unloving towards you, you can quickly. You move the other way.

That's such a good answer. I mean, I think, yes, we do need a whole other podcast episode, which we probably have you on, to go through the pieces of what that looks like. But that is. That is so good because I always say how my trauma as a child, childhood trauma, was what led me to Be a chameleon and just want to get love in any way, shape, or form. And so. And then also we only see three things through our own normal, like you said, you need to know. And that, again, is why group is so important, because you're getting these outside perspectives. And that's where I recognized. Oh, that behavior I did as a child was not just me being a bad kid, it was trauma because I heard somebody else say it. And so having other people, starting with a counselor, that can help you make sense, because it's hard for us to see outside of our own experience. So we need those other people to help us put the pieces back together. Yeah, that was a really great answer. Okay, so last question is just what encouragement or hope or, you know, what would you offer to somebody listening who may be up against a divorce? And sometimes, as we know, it's not their choice. Somebody may just come to you one day and say, I'm leaving. So whether they're the ones pursuing it or somebody has presented it to them and it's just going to happen whether they like it or not. What's your encouragement?

Yeah, I want to tell that person that I know where you are feels like the worst place ever. Losing a relationship that you have committed yourself to that you thought would be for your whole life, and then losing it as something from something so devastating as betrayal can feel like the worst possible thing that could ever happen to you. But I want to tell that person that your journey to rediscovering yourself is going to be one of the best gifts that you can give yourself. Nothing is worse than losing yourself. When Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? I. I use that so much when talking about relationship. What does it profit you to gain a relationship and lose your whole self? So the relationship may be gone, but you as a person are still alive, and you can start on a journey to creating and living the life that you want. It's not going to be quick. It's not going to be overnight. But if you commit yourself to the. To that journey now, so many women will say, well, do anything to save my marriage. And I say, why would you do anything to save your marriage but not be willing to do anything to save yourself?

Yeah.

So do the work to save yourself, to heal yourself, to see what God has for you. Divorce is a. It's a chapter. It's not the whole story. And there's so much of the story still being written. So keep reading, keep learning, keep growing. You can cry and snot your way through the whole thing, but just keep. Yeah, sure. Just keep showing up and to know that there's no timetable. I am almost 10 years post discovery, and there are still so many places that are tender for me, but I have compassion for myself again. 25 years, more than half of my life was spent with this person. So to think that I'm just going to quickly be able to recover from that is a false expectation for myself. So have lots of compassion for yourself. And don't forget to laugh. I mean, laughter is medicine, and you can laugh in the midst of the pain. Don't laugh to avoid your pain, but you can laugh. You can laugh in the midst of it and remember that life is good. There's so much good out there, and you just have to find it.

That is so good. I mean, I am really thankful for this episode. I know a lot of women will say discovery was their best and worst day because the marriage was already doing what it was doing. The addiction, the double life. And this just gave clarity to this can't keep happening. And I know that for me, that my, you know, my discovery disclosure with John was that moment where I started digging into who am I? What do I like? Do I have to be chained to somebody else's behaviors? I mean, we're still together, but still I want to be my own whole person and then do life with this other person. And so, yeah, just don't be discouraged and reach out and start something today if you're in that place. Andrea, we had such a good time talking with you today. Thank you so much for being our guest. We just feel privileged to have your wisdom and your experience on our show.

Thank you for having me. I really enjoy this conversation, and I hope that when people see me, they know that I'm not God's favorite. Right. He didn't do something for me that he wouldn't do for someone else. So to a person who feels like they don't have any hope, I want to offer that hope and to share my experience and let people know that there is good. There's a good life on the other side of divorce.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behaviors and betrayal, trauma. If you are not someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin your journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others so that other people can find us and hear this good message that we got to hear today or follow us on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

SA.