306 - Racism & Sexual Brokenness w/ Immanuel & Michelle Garraway

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted.

Sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hey there. I'm your host, Ashley Jamison, and you are listening to episode 306 of the Pure Desire podcast, Women's Takeover. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Heather Kolb. Hey. Hey.

It is so fun to be back, to be doing these podcasts together again.

I know we get to takeover for like a whole month.

Yes, it's very fun.

We love taking over and being in control. Okay, well, today's episode was pretty fun and different. It might be surprising, maybe to some of our listeners. We had Emmanuel and Michelle Garraway, who Emmanuel, for most of you know, he's on staff here and is a black guy. You guys should watch the YouTube episode so you can see that, you know, there's black people in the house today. And I know that this is a. Can be a triggering, kind of divisive, sensitive topic to some people. And the reason why. Why we did this episode today is because I presented a talk like this. I was asked to present a talk like this last year at the Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit, and I was sweating buckets. So nervous because I talk about my story and how racism intertwines with all of my identity issues and my self worth, that, you know, all those things that created a love or sex addiction in me, that. But to have somebody ask me speak on it, especially, you know, at something like that, an event like that, I was just really, really nervous that I wasn't gonna do it justice, that I was gonna say something that offended somebody, that I was gonna not be, you know, representative of a big population of people. It just was a lot of pressure. But what I found was, out of that, it really helped some of the leaders that were there understand how to navigate this issue with people in. In their ministry or organizations that lead groups. And then from that, I was invited to a couple other podcasts to do it. And I just saw there is a need here. There's a need because all of our trauma ties into why we do what we do.

Right, Right.

So, yeah, it was really good episode. And even though I was, you know, the only white person in the lawn. Person. Yeah. But I still think that there's. That I have a responsibility to be educated and to just have an awareness that I myself will probably never experience racism, but that I can learn what that feels like for somebody else and especially for other people who I love and I care about. I think that it's so important for me to recognize that Even though you're gonna have a different experience that I'm gonna have, even from the time that you walk into a room, which that would never occur to me, but yet I can recognize that, okay, this is real life. This is. This is something that a lot of people suffer from, you know, is racism. And that I can be a good friend and I can learn and I can listen, and I just think that it's an important part of the human experience and really how we walk out life together.

Yeah, you make such a good point. Because at Pure Desire, we're always talking about, we want to be safe people, we want to create a safe culture. We want to have safe churches and safe groups. And so even if you don't know anything or have any experience with racism, it's still a good episode, because we're teaching you how to take maybe a divisive topic, a hot topic. It could be abortion. It could be, you know, same sex or whatever. We're te. We're teaching you how to take something that could be very hard waters to tread as a group leader or as a group member or even as somebody working on your own recovery or healing and trying to help you just see how to navigate those difficult things. Because anything painful, anything traumatic, anything difficult is going to contribute to our sexual acting out, our identity, our. You know, how we see ourselves. So, yeah, I hope the episode is applicable, you know, to anyone listening.

Yeah, it's important.

All right, well, before we dive into this really good, juicy episode, we have a couple of things to go over. First, subscribe to the podcast or watch full episodes on YouTube. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, you can find us on all major platforms. And please give us a review because it helps more people find us and, you know, be able to get the help. Second, follow us on social media. You can follow us at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. And if you like to consume video content, the full episode is available on YouTube. Pure Desire Ministries. Okay, so with this episode, I feel like this is a good one to just pause and just highlight our online groups. Those can be a very safe community for you to enter into. So can you share with us a little bit about what our online groups are and how it can help somebody?

Yeah, so we have online groups for men and women who struggle and for those who have experienced betrayal. And this is really where you are having the same group experience, like you're doing your homework and doing all of the curriculum, but then you meet with your group online and it's one of the things that is so great about it is that you can be really almost anywhere in the world and be part of a Pure Desire online group.

Yeah. And what I like about this is, you know, maybe you, like we talked about in the episode, being a pastor's wife, maybe your first step feels more comfortable if it's not in your own community, especially if your community was one that maybe harmed you or you've experienced some comments that make you feel insecure. And so we do our best with our online groups to train our leaders and to make sure that they are safe environments for people to process all trauma, because we're all going to have different trauma in, you know, in our groups or different experiences of what has been done to us, whether it's being a betrayed spouse or integrating part of your story into your recovery process. And so online groups are a safe way to get started if you're not sure where to start to process your own sexual addiction or betrayal trauma. All right, well, here's our time with Emmanuel and Michelle Garraway on racism and sexual brokenness. All right, well, Emmanuel and Michelle, thank you for being here. First of all, I am so excited to have you guys. When Heather and I were deciding what episodes we wanted to do, I automatically thought, I want to speak on the connection of racism and sexual brokenness. Because I've done that talk another place, and we've never had it here at Pure Desire. So naturally, I reached out to my other black coworker. Only you are the other. Okay, you are the other my black coworker. Because when we first met, and I can't remember what event it was, Michelle and I connected through medicine.

Oh, it was the summit day.

Yeah, the summit. So the blog I wrote on breaking generational curses with my black girl hair, and then that gave us the connection of, like, sometimes I think I'm the only one with these struggles. So I instantly was like, I want to get you guys on here so we can represent just maybe a portion of people who have experienced what we've experienced.

Yeah, well, by the way, that blessed us. Yeah, I know. It blessed my wife, it blessed our daughters, but I sent it to my mom and my sisters, like, oh, my God, that's your boss.

Awesome. And it's crazy when you. You. You have this fear of stepping out and saying something, especially if it's a divisive hot topic. You don't want to be the one out there bringing it up. For people to be all triggered by either on this side or this Side. And so I just want to create that space today. I'm, like, going way off. Oh, I don't have a script. I did that on purpose because I know our stories. Right?

Yeah.

So I. I just wanted to create a space and first just say that as one. This is what I always say. I talk about black people, and I say black people. You can say people of color, minority group, you know, whatever. Racial diversity, however you want to categorize it. When I grew up, I called myself a black person in a black family, and people commented on my blackness. So that's how I talk. And I hope to never be offensive to anybody. And also, I share my story. And you guys are gonna share your story and through your lens. And so although it's rep. Representative of lots of people, we're not saying this is everybody's story, but from what I've heard, gathered, talked to other people, it is a lot of people's stories. So we're just giving voice to that and not having all the answers, but creating the conversation and creating the thoughts. You know, maybe some thought process change in some people. So that's what we're doing today. Yeah, just a conversation. So first question I want to ask is just tell us about yourself. I know, Emmanuel. I know you from working with you. I know a little bit about what you do, Michelle. But just tell us about who you are as a people, a couple, whatever you want to share.

Yeah.

No.

So one. Just so thankful that my husband gets to be a part of Pure Desire. When I found out he was going to be on the team with you guys, I was like, okay, God, you know, thank you for giving him that opportunity. And also, how do I play a role in that with him? And so I've been just really thankful that through him, I also get a voice here. But personally, what I do is graphic design. And so that's kind of my world. And I love pairing it with just Christianity and just what God's doing in my heart and creating art out of that and putting it online. So that's kind of a little bit of what I do.

But yeah, yeah, she missed out some other stuff. We've been married 10 years. Well, this year will be 10 years, actually. Summit is our anniversary. So big time for Pure Desire. Big time for us. So 10 years will be this year, September 14th. We have three daughters. Ava, Naomi, Trinity. So aunt. Auntie. 876.

Mine spelled wake.

Oh, okay.

That's really cool.

That's a tattoo idea. Thank you. Ant tattoo or like a picture of it anyway, anyway, tan Nat and we have a fourth baby in heaven. He passed away five years ago so it would have been eight, seven, six and five. So we didn't waste any time.

No, you didn't.

So you are busy and I know even just the ages your kids. My daughter just turned 13 yesterday. She's kind of like my black one because my boys are all very light skinned. They have blue or green eyes. The twins have afro hair but their skin is white and then Ayla's brown in the middle. But I know with that age and your guys aren't too far behind, you guys will probably be able to shed some light today as parents from your own childhood and even maybe what you're seeing in your own kids, how society can shape our kids identities. So I hope to just sprinkle in a mix of that so that this episode is applicable to a person, a parent, a child. You know, that we can just connect.

So good it is. And you like there's so much there too.

Yeah, right.

Different shades.

Being a biracial woman, our kids have various skin tones. So yes, even within our own family race plays a role because of just society and the way we are shaped to look at skin color. So it's just crazy that we kind of look at our, our children on a system of like what shade of brown they are and it actually, it just breaks my heart.

Yeah, yeah. One of the comments, my not gonna name names. My somebody in my family, distant family said when Ayla was born, cause she's my only one that has brown skin was well why did she have to be the one that got the brown skin? And this is coming from a dark skinned person in my family because of her own trauma. So you know, it's just we can give trauma to each other because we haven't processed our own and healed our own. And then we can also get it from the opposite party, you know, so then you're getting it from both sides and it just makes very messy and complex and, and the reason why I wanted to talk about this and then you know, Heather will jump in with some, actually some questions that we really did take the time to try to think.

Right.

But the reason why I wanted to bring this up because we are not just a podcast, you know, we're not just podcasters trying to like oh, let's talk about some hot topics today. But I have seen because I've overseeing the groups at Pure Desire for seven years, seven and a half, eight really that if you can't talk about your whole Trauma story. You're going to have trouble healing from your sexual brokenness. You're going to have trouble healing from betrayal. Because I felt insecure. And so even with a white husband, there's parts of my story that were still broken. That it was like, well, I just need to kind of be thankful with what I got. Even if the behavior wasn't really good and it wasn't fair treatment and it wasn't wow, you know, so, um, within this re this context of Pure Desire, that's why we get to talk about this. And hopefully we can educate group leaders and we can educate group members. That group here at Pure Desire, if we have anything to do with it, is a safe place. And we can help leaders figure out how to facilitate groups and be able to talk about all hot topics. I got an abortion. I've experienced racism. All hot topics. In a way that's safe for the group member but doesn't ignite any, you know, cross talk or, you know, what am I trying to say? It doesn't ignite tension in the group. We need to teach group members that it's okay for people to have their trauma. And it may be something that touches on your trauma.

Yeah.

And the opportunity.

It's okay to be uncomfortable.

Yes, it's okay to be uncomfortable. So that's what we're doing today.

Yeah.

Okay, let's get started. So what challenges does race play in overcoming sexual brokenness? And this is like two part question. And then also, how does it interfere with safety in a group and a person's recovery and healing?

Yeah, I guess I'll go first. It's a loaded question. So first off, I'm gonna do my best to try to capture what I think are some important things to bring up. For me, race played a role in sexual brokenness because there is a stigma and a social issue in our world of black individuals not having community because of history and everything that black people have gone through. In America, isolation is prevalent. Not having people to look up to, to speak to, is common. And so I found that I had many unanswered questions. Not to mention my mother is. She's actually biracial too, but she comes off as a white woman. So I'm, you know, a child with brown skin and curly hair in a family that doesn't quite look like me. And so, yeah, I just felt like I was already at a disposition for sexual brokenness because I didn't have those safe spaces to process things.

Yeah. Oh, man, that is, like my wife said, that's a Loaded question. As far as challenges that race plays in overcoming, I guess to look at it in a couple different ways. One, from, like, a group's perspective or like, in that kind of context, like, representation is a big thing, and not seeing something or someone that looks like you is like, you don't like that feeling of, like, ah, you don't understand. And so with that, like, there's another layer of shame that you end up wearing. I was like, man, I already don't feel good enough because I already feel like I don't fit in. And now I don't feel like I don't fit in with my own pain and trauma that has came to be sexual brokenness. And so that's a challenge. But two, I'm not gonna, I, I, I'm not gonna speak on the hap on behalf of all black people. But one thing I can observe within our culture is that, like, two things that we don't necessarily talk about that often is money and sex. Especially in, like, black church. Like, ties is always like, oh, it's the greedy pastor is going to you. Right. But even sex, because there's so many things that come with that, so many different conversations. Like, if you do talk about that, that means you have to face the things that behind that door. And so I've seen that within our community and even specifically within my home, that I had to learn a lot of those things from other places, a lot of, from other people. And so.

Right.

I didn't, we weren't resourced well, I wasn't necessarily resourced well on how to understand one, trauma. And two, how does my, the trauma from my race also play a fact in, in how it shows up in sexual brokenness?

Yeah. You're also, also with race and sexuality, because that's a big correlation we're making. Right. There is what is being modeled to you. What, what, what are you. Because as a child is, it's like more is more is caught than what is taught. So, like, in my home, it was domestic violence. And you know what that, what did that teach me about, you know, being a brown family? What did that teach me about, you know, not feeling safe and then how that played a role in how I grew up and what I believed about myself. Making poor decisions out of that, you know, poor sexual behavior decisions. Because I'm, you know, like, my mom was treated like a victim. So I guess I'm a victim. So that really was like a common message in my early high school years and even into my 20s. It's just like this victim role.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it does. So when you're in group. One thing that I have had to work through, and now I'm more vocal about it, is if you were finally being vulnerable and saying, Cause my childhood was I. You know, kids would call me the N word. And I don't want to sit by the black girl at just young ages. So it made me feel like, oh, I want to blend in. I don't want to draw attention to myself. I want to be basically as white as I can be so that I can have these kids like me, these boys like me. Which led me down the path of like, even, you know, sexually acting out, because I just wanted to be accepted, even though sometimes these are the same boys making racist jokes about me. But I thought that was kind of all I would get, because hearing from my mom and aunt, who are in their 70s and grew up, you know, and they're dark or black. They're like white people. You know, if you have a white husband, then it'll be better for you because your kids won't be so dark. And so I'm, like, kind of almost idolized white people. And then in my head thought, okay, I'm lower because I'm not a white person. And. And what that did was just created a bunch of identity crisis that led into sexual crisis. And when I finally started processing it out loud, I started it with just friends and people I knew. Some of the comments were. So it's almost like rel. You know, institutional trauma, but in that sense, where you finally decide to start talking about it, and it's like, well, you're not even that black, so why are you upset? Or you're not even. Which is so like, yeah, you don't say those kinds of things. Or, you know, are you sure that that's what they meant because you're so pretty? Or, you know, just minimizing what I experienced or that never happened to you, and people weren't that bad. And I'm like, no. And then I would say I literally grew up in an area where there'd be signs on the tree that say, get out of these trees. N word. Yeah. And, you know, and it's like, oh, we didn't realize what happened to you. But still, that's not for you. That's. You're not.

You're.

They're not targeting that toward you. And so those kind of comments, when somebody is finally ready to say something in group and they're sharing maybe their trauma story, their. Their traumas of infringement and abandonment or they're going through their timeline or even their arousal, whatever it is, to just listen. And if it's painful for them, validate that and say, I am really sorry you had to go through that. Don't try to excuse it away or get defensive or anything like that.

Yeah. And even to that, like, thinking about, like with trauma, we carry that wherever we go. Like, that's oftentimes a lens that we view things. And so thinking about a black person, we've experienced like racism. So already the feeling of like, I don't fit in, I don't feel safe that you have that element. Coming into a room for a group dynamic is like, can I really be my authentic self in this space? Because one, talking about porn, masturbation, unwanted sexual behaviors, betrayal, trauma is already uncomfortable. So having to take that risk of putting it out there. But two, like having the courage to say, man, I've been rejected by people that may look like you, that don't look like me, that are in this room, but can I feel safe with my brokenness here is the extra layer that I've experienced, not only just in groups, but like going to church or working anywhere. It's like, can I be myself? Like, can I?

Your intent is always.

Yeah, it's like you're hyper vigilant.

Yeah, I still do that to this day.

Yeah.

Like, okay, I. Am I safe here? I'm in Idaho. I'm in a gun store. That may be controversial too. And I'm like, okay, all these white guys with guns, are they. Are they friendly, like minded, just people that like to go out and shoot or are they like racist? Because I've experienced something from people that look like this before, but you're constantly just scanning and being overly friendly and you know.

Oh yeah. There's a hyper awareness of your around your surroundings. But it's kind of funny that we have like, what you're talking about. It's funny that we hyper focus on our surroundings, but we tell lies about who we truly are.

Mm.

And then we end up hyper focusing on what is not true about ourselves.

It just messes up your identity.

Oh, it's. It's so bad. And we rank ourself every time we enter a room. Where am I here? Oh, I'm at the bottom. These people don't look like me. I'm going to minimize myself. I'm going to minimize my story, prove myself. Yeah. And so it. That can really be damaging.

Yeah. So, so complex. It's so complex.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So to be even More complex. What messages were you taught in your family of origin that set you up or perpetuated areas of sexual brokenness in your life? Like, like I said, I can see the path that led to my sexual brokenness very clearly. And it was very heavily influenced by the insecurities I had as a black girl.

A hundred percent. I know for me, like, one word, and there's many that I could use, but one word that really jumps out to me the most is secrecy. Like, and like lying. Because we, I, I grew up in a home where we didn't talk about those things. And having to do this whole image management thing of like, I'm trying to fit in this crowd, this crowd, like, I'm like a chameleon. There's a sense of withholding your true authentic self and who you are, including your sexual brokenness. And so because I learned that we don't talk about these things, like, well, I don't want to you to know these things about me. I don't, I don't want you to know the stuff that I did on, on this, in the, on the late night tip, as they would say. Like, so, like, secrecy for me was a huge thing that I, I absorbed. And like, I know Pete Peak Peace Gazero. I love his work. I remember going through emotionally healthy spirituality. And like, he goes to the genogram in the chapter going back to go forward, he talks about looking at your family of origin and understanding. Like, you make up. Don't quote me on this. I don't remember exact number, but you make up like three to four or three to five generations. And so like, their stories impact that story which impacts that story which shapes you. And it's like you've inherited several different messages from several different generations. And just to think how crazy. And now we, I know we talked about this before. Like, for me, we're talking about generations. Like, slavery is a part of that. And just understanding, like some of the messages from slavery. Like, okay, well, performance. I gotta work to earn my value or I have to be quiet, I can't talk about this, I might be punished. Or like all these different layers that impacted the generations before me. That kind of messages that I've heard today of like, no, you got to work, earn your right. Like, earn your worth. You got to perform, you got to work hard. Like, we don't talk about stuff. We don't deal with pain, we got power through. And so all of those things impacted, at least for me, my view, my world with sexual brokenness.

Yeah. And like, what you like, my. Our family line also comes from descendants of slaves. Like, it was like two, two or three generations back. The slave owner couldn't have kids. And believe it or not, his wife's name was Sarah. And my descendant. My ancestor's name was Hagar. And that's where our line comes from. And so having that, I remember my mom even saying, oh, we have somebody in our line that went to the store and they jacked the price because he was a black guy, and he confronted the store owner and he was hanged. And so it's like, that's real trauma. That's not that far back. And so that's where understanding more of that helped me to understand my mom. And when I finally started talking with her as an adult, I found out that she was raped by her lieutenant in the army as a virgin. And if she didn't do it, he was gonna leave her in KKK territory. And so all of a sudden, my picture started connecting, and I'm like, this is important for us to talk about with our kids. If this is part of our story as it is with our sexual brokenness, like, the whole story, not just understanding the whole narrative. Because when my mom would say things like, do your hair like this, she was trying to minimize trauma for me from her trauma, but it was screwing up my own confidence in who God made me be. And so when she was trying to protect me from things that she experienced or, you're gonna have to work harder, because white people normally get the jobs that came out of her trauma that white people would get the jobs over her in 19, you know, and so her saying that you need to perform like this. Look like this. Don't be too loud, don't be too black. And it was really just shaping this little soul of, I need to look and act like this. And that came out of her trauma, and that impacted who I ended up marrying and what I ended up doing and what I ended up thinking I was good enough for.

Yeah, even, like, the secrets, like, don't. Don't speak up because you're going to speak about, like, ill. About our family name. Like, keep. Keep quiet. Like, no, don't. Uncle Gary, whoever he is, like, don't say nothing about that, because that's some of them I don't have. I'm just making names. But, like, into that point we heard through our counselor, which is lives with us forever is what doesn't get transformed, gets transmitted. So, like, whatever trauma does not get processed, dealt with, transform. Like, you will transmit that to not only Every context that you're in. But, like, generationally, my. My girls will inherit my trauma because I didn't do my due diligence of being responsible and taking ownership from the things that I inherited that were outside of my control.

Right.

Yeah. I would say to. To your guys's thoughts is knowing that there's an element of shame. The shame that we carry. It's being able to, like, tell yourself, like, being able to hug yourself, like, going, okay, this is my mom's story. That shame isn't all from the decisions I've made. That shame is something that was put on me. And in that. And when you become aware of your upbringing, you're able to forgive.

Yes.

Because you're like, oh, wait, I understand why my mom did that.

Yes.

But we don't know that as children.

That's like.

Like you're saying it's corrupting our own self image. But not all the shame we carry is our fault. And I just feel like if there. If people could just release themselves, like, how as a child, are you going to be responsible for the poor decisions of the people before you? And that's why it's so important that we make those changes now. Like, for me, like I mentioned earlier, there's really a story of just abandonment in my childhood. There's really a story. Yeah. Of abuse. And fatherlessness is a theme in my story. And that really. That really messed with me. I was talking with my husband earlier about these questions, and I was like, man, it led to a love addiction. And this is crazy. I remember. So my sophomore year is when I started entering into what I'd call serious relationships. And from the age of 15 until I got married, I was in a relationship.

Yeah, that 10 years.

And these. Some of them were years long, two years long. And even after I said yes to God, I was entering into these relationships and I would say, like, oh, it's okay. I'm in this relationship because they love Jesus. But then I would compromise, and then I'd have shame, and then I'd be convicted, and then I'd be laying, just to be honest with you, next to the person in the bed, like, God, help me. Rescue me from this situation. And God did that. And that's a whole nother story. Like, God rescuing me from that. But are we having disclosures?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just like, I'm really proud of my wife.

I'm really proud of, like, to get back to the core, to get back to the point is I can literally transport Myself back to those times and see the brokenness, see the disposition that I was in. And not saying, it's like it's all my father's fault, it's all my mom's fault. Because when we do that, it's like we naturally say that person's all good or that person's all bad. But I am aware that they were also at a disposition. And so, yeah, that really played a role in how I chose boyfriends, how I treated my relationships. I felt like I couldn't say no to people. Yeah, I felt that way, like, okay, I gotta do this because, you know, I got, I need. Like I said this to my husband earlier. I said even though what I was engaging in was breaking me, I made this weird correlation that I needed that validation so much that I was willing to compromise my sexual integrity. Yeah, like, how awful is that? Yeah, like, God, I'm willing to sacrifice my body because I need the affirmation. I'm not getting it from my home. And quite frankly, I'm not getting it from you. God, like, obviously this is not where I am today. But that's the dialogue I had. And I was like, God, it's more worth it to me that this person says they love me. It's more worth it to me that this person says I look beautiful because I needed my cup filled.

You did bring up a good point though about the fatherlessness that is just statistically higher in black homes. Incarceration, arrest rate, prostitution, that's all higher. And so it just, it like we have to keep breaking the cycles, you know, but yeah, it cycles, but we have to have the resources, tools and awareness and bringing that shame down to break the cycles because we know that shame drives addiction and we're stuck in these shame cycles. So I think that probably is more so anything that we're. This conversation is about breaking shame cycles because that's what leads to addiction. And ours happens to be some racism in our shame cycle. But somebody else may have another, you know.

No, that's so good. And to tie it back to race, there was one particular lie I can remember to this day in my childhood. And my grandfather, my grandfather was a very dark skinned man. And being that, you know, my family unit was biracial and me and my siblings all looked different. We had various tones of skin, very different. I actually was the darkest in my family. And I guess when I was a toddler, he told my mom, she's gonna have a hard life because her skin is darker. And when people speak those words over You.

They don't realize it's a mantle.

The distance that it goes, power that it has.

Which is so interesting because I'm close to your skin color. And I'm the lightest one in my family because we're all so mixed and we're all different shades. My brother was full black, but I'm the lightest. And so my siblings always heard the message. Ashley's eyes are lighter. The opposite message.

Yeah.

And so it just confused me. Cause that's the message I heard at home. And then, boop, I'm in school. I'm the only black person. So now I'm the darkest. And so it's like, I'm so confused. I don't know who I am. No.

That's so weird.

And you know what's crazy? Like, is this funny, but not funny. Like, so within my family, like, my wife probably, she knows it, but, like, within my own family, like, we joke about who's the darkest sometimes, like, oh, man, you're so dark. That it was like, that's so awful. But, like, even that comparison of, like, lighter skin.

Oh, yeah.

Or darker skin happens within.

We laugh away our shame.

Exactly.

To feel more comfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so. And that's why we say on this podcast, it's going to be different for everybody. Because all my kids are like, I wish I was darker. I wish, you know, we're. We're kind of like, same look. From the outside, it looks the same. Right. But the trauma can be just so different depending on the family. So really looking at what lies your family or your upbringing or generational curses have been passed down so that whatever it is, we can start breaking it.

No, that's good.

So in what ways are you cultivating health in your family and with your kids to break harmful intergenerational messages? And so you've kind of touched a little bit on this, but can you expand on that?

Yeah, this. This is something really cool that we've incorporated into our family. We live in a. We live in the country here in Oregon. We live in Sandy, which is probably like, us and like, five or six other black families that live in Sandy. But we love.

We're like a sore thumb out there.

Yeah. Everybody knows us, like, oh, Sagar. Anyway. But our. Our girls have had challenges with racism already. Like, there was a boy that would call one of my daughters poop, or you look like this and this, that, and the third. And as a parent reliving my own moments at their age, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I thought my kids would not have to go through this. I thought we were further along. And so, like, as a dad, then having to step into these spaces, like, advocating for my kids, but then doubling back to speak life and truth into my kids, that's something that we've been doing. So one thing. And if you're a parent watching this, like, you could take this for what it is. Like, we do this every night now because one of our daughters, our oldest, she was having struggles with, like, her hair. Because all of our girls identify with hair. Like, oh, my hair straightened, like, such and such. Or, why is my hair so curly? And. And then skin color. And then everything just identity. And we're like, man, we need to. We need to try something. And so my wife and I, after, like, we. We call sometimes intense fellowship, we're like, man, what do we do? I'm like, well, let's pray. And, like, let's try this tonight. So, like, we're not gonna do tablet time or anything like that. Like, we're gonna be present and. And we do this thing where each night we rotate a kid, and then we'll even do it too. And we. The kids got, like, this big old beanbag chair, and, like, we sit in it, and we call it the hot seat.

Oh. Yep.

And they sit in there. Everybody has to go around and tell this person, like, what do they love about them? Not only, like, what do they see, but, like, character. And then our. Our daughter, or even us, they like to say, I receive it and I believe it. And then after that, like, we'll have them stand up. And then, like, now it's speed round. You got one minute to declare all of these things, like, God's truths and what you believe about yourself in one minute. And at first, like, oh, my gosh, I can't do this. But then they're. They're just. It's just coming like, oh, my gosh, that's really good. And so, like, you could take that for what it is, like, if you're a parent watching this.

But, yeah, no shame, like, if you're not doing that.

It's something that we. We had to, like, in a moment of, like, what do we do about this? Because we're clearly seeing, like, our. Our children are struggling with their identity and. And being black, speaking truth. Speaking truth and wanting to rewrite the narrative of, like, okay, how do we, through us, processing our own trauma, incorporate, like, health for our kids so that when they get older, like, nah, I know who I am. I know who God says I am. I know who I am. And whatever you're saying is not true.

Yeah.

And so it just gives them a chance to reroute their thought process instead of leaving them in the, you know, the truth. Not. Sorry, leaving them in the distortion.

Yes.

They're able to reroute. And so it's funny, we also do this thing too, where I'm sure a lot of families do this. It's like the highs and lows of the day, but coupled with that, I think what it's doing is it's creating a authenticity in them to share what they love about people, even without us telling them.

Yeah.

Like, my youngest will be like, mom, I love your skin out of the blue. Or, mom, I just. I love your hair. And it will be right on the. Like, right on time.

Yeah, right. Like, right on time.

Like, you know, obviously, I don't want that codependent relationship with my kids, like, where I'm like, give me all the things, the words. But when it comes, like, naturally, because we've cultivated that in our house, those. Those moments are, like, filled with gold. Yeah.

Well, and that's. I mean, that's. I think something I realize is if we don't own. And this goes for any addiction story, if you don't own your story, then you're living out of fear. But once you've processed it and you're like, oh, I have this vulnerability. I have this weakness because of this trauma, you start working through it. And so even just watching my daughter go from where she was when I wrote that blog, hating herself, finding notes in her room, I hate myself. I wish I was white. It was so devastating to me because again, Emmanuel, I'm like, what the heck? It's like 30 years later, you know, and my daughter's experiencing the same thing. And so, you know, she experienced racism a couple weeks ago in her Christian program she was involved in. And she read me the text that she sent to the kids, and I was, like, blown away. And so I've seen the four or five years of just saying, oh, look at that shade of black, that it's almost purple. It's so beautiful. And, you know, just saying, just bringing light and life to. And goodness to being black and researching more and digging out the history books that have great stories about black girls. You know, I've just seen it kind of morph her and listening to her tell her a text and say, when you make these racist jokes, this is how it feels. And I'm sure you don't know how it feels to Be the only one in the room, a certain color, and have everybody else teasing you. But it hurts me. So I'm gonna not hang out with you if you guys continue to act like that. And I'm gonna go hang out with people that make me feel good about myself. And I was so proud of her because four or five years ago, she's writing I hate myself. I wish I was white. And now she's like, I am beautiful. This is ignorant. You don't know. And she's, you know, 13 years old. So I just see, like, we're changing stuff in our family just by being. Owning what we, you know, where we struggle and then. And then talking about that with our kids.

Yeah, this. This. It makes. It makes me emotional talking about this specifically. I'm not gonna apologize for tears.

Don't.

But just our marriage and how God has worked through so much. Like, even, like, on the. On the lens of race, like, the stereotype of, oh, black people, probably the husband or the father's incarcerated, single black mom that has kids and single parenting. And, you know, like, for some of us, like my. My parents, I watched my mom sleep on the couch from the day, gosh, when I was 7 or 8 years old. And still to this day, even though my dad's passed away, like, she still does that because my parents were so disconnected. And like, her, her dad is no longer, like, not in the picture, but for us to be together and show affection with each other. And, like, we're together, we parent together, we love each other. Like, I'm taking the kids to school, like, and. And. And being insane. Like, for me, this ministers to me like I'm in a white area. And, like, these little white kids. I wish I have a picture, like, jumping all over me like, uncle man, man, uncle man, man's here. And like, wait, there's a black dad with his daughters. Yeah, and there's other daughters, like, calling him Uncle Man. Man, like, blesses my soul. And just to be a part of rewriting people's story, like, first impressions, like, I know a black guy. I know a black couple. Like, they're married. They have a home, their home. Like, we're. We're the first homeowners in our families.

You're not druggies and gang bangers.

Right?

Like, we're not. We're not whatever perception that you had. And. And, like, we're part of rewriting a narrative. I mean, we're one part of one dropping a huge bucket. But it makes me emotional just thinking, like, man, because of what God has done.

That's good.

Like, we're not reliving the narratives that we have inherited for ourselves. And our kids get to see, like, their kids will not have to worry about what we've been through because they have both of us.

So good. Yeah, so good. I guess that kind of goes into our next question then. I know it's emotional. I was on a few podcasts doing this talk, and I think I cried in all of them, and I always do. Okay, so how does owning your own story contribute to healing from the effects of racism and sexual brokenness? And I feel like this whole conversation has been kind of the answer. But is there anything else that you can encourage? Encourage? Maybe somebody listening?

Yeah, I would just say, like, forgive yourself is the first step in being able to wash yourself with that of just the truth that God has for you in your life or whatever your story is. Being able to say, that was me then, but I have new tools now, and I'm able to walk out my life differently than I did before. And I just think that, you know, we talked a little bit about groups earlier. It's important that we show up to groups as a woman of color, as a man of color. It's important that we show up, because like he said very early on in the podcast, representation is huge. And that's how it creates change going.

Forward in anything that carries a lot of shame. Right. So, I mean, how you're saying representation with sexual addiction, with betrayal. Oh, my pastor's. My husband's a pastor, and I. And he had an affair. I can't tell anybody. Or I had an affair with my wife where I'm looking at porn secretly, or I feel like nobody understands my racial trauma and pain, that we need to be voice pieces. And so if we see a lot of this being spoken about and you have a story that's different and. And you feel like you're the only one, then that may be an indicator that maybe God's putting it on your heart to be the one that does start the group or does, you know, go forward and go first so other people can follow lead?

Yeah. I would also say to that, take time to own your story. Like, actually intentionally sit down and think about your life and get. And ask for language to be able to verbalize it a certain way. Because I feel like words are powerful. The words we say, the words we receive. And so being able to be patient with yourself and say, okay, what's my story? And how do I want to say it? And what is the message I want to give, because, trust me, you can give the message of I, you know, I have sexual brokenness, and I am at a disposition because of my skin color. And it can. It can actually fuel the wrong things, and it can actually make you an angry person bent on, like, vengeance. And that. That's. That's not where we want to be. We want to be in a place where our pain makes us softer and that we are able to articulate it in a way that says what we actually want people to hear. Like, I don't want you to just hear that I'm broken. I actually want you to hear that I'm healing. And so just taking that time to get language and not being afraid of your story and just really embracing it. I think that's what I would say.

Yeah.

Heather, that was in one of our. Is it in our unraveled material where we talk about, you know, moms can raise secure children if they've processed their. Help me with that.

Yeah. So that moms who can tell a coherent narrative of their trauma can raise secure children. Something like 75% based on research.

Takes work, right?

That's so good.

It takes group, it takes work. It takes community. It takes getting outside of our own filters. So that's why group is so important.

Right. Because a group gives you a place to process in safety. So when you're able to process in safety, you begin to go, oh, okay. And then you start writing stuff down, you start journaling, because it's like. And then also you begin to rewrite the lies. Like, wow, today in group, I was safe. Today I shared my story and someone acknowledged it. And so, like, as leaders in groups, you have got to really look like. As a leader, I would say to the leaders that are leading groups currently right now, is to be careful. Care. Care for the per. Like, not careful. Like, oh, I'm going to spill something. But, like, be careful. Be full of care for the people you're around.

Dang, that's a bar.

And just know that you're helping them get a safe space.

Yes. Yeah.

I loved how you said that our pain should make us softer, because I think that that is so true. And I think that it also helps to develop empathy, because as a white woman, I am not ever going to experience racism. I'm just not. But because I have a really good friend who helps to educate me for.

Those of you listening.

Yes, I know. But for years of just being able to walk out life together and to be able to empathize with not only Ashley's story, but just even current things that she experiences and raise that awareness of. Just to change my perspective. Because, like Emmanuel, you said earlier, I don't think I will ever go into a room and have to read the room the same way that black people have to. I just won't ever. And because I've lived my whole entire life in Oregon, so you know what I mean? But just being able to raise that awareness. And we even will do trainings together. We went through a training recently called the Trauma of Racism. And just because it's so important for even white people to have an understanding of what it looks like for black people, because it's different. There's no other way to say it. It just is different. And we can learn and be empathetic and validate what people go through. And it just. It's a great part of the human experience, I think.

Well, and how healing is it when you don't feel like you have to keep defending yourself, explaining yourself, and you do have somebody that's a white friend or a white leader? Because I went through healing my trauma of my racism through pure desire. You know, it wasn't until I went through the material here that I real. That's a core piece. And I would tell it from the stage as part of my story, but it was getting in group that I'm like, connecting all the dots. And then that enabled me to heal my trauma with my mom. So there'd be times I would text Heather and say, she just made a comment on my hair. Or she just. And Heather would just be able to say, that's coming from her trauma. And you can just respond in this way and you don't have to carry that. And I was able to learn how to respond to my mom and say, I don't like when you make comments about my hair like that. And it makes me feel sad that you won't just accept my hair the way God made it. And I don't wanna go to lunch with you anymore. And that was such a different response for me to give to my mom, rather than shutting down, internalizing it, yelling at her. And then she was made with the choice of, I either have to stop talking about my daughter that way or I will lose relationship. And luckily, she chose to keep relationship and grow and change. And we have such a good relationship now. But when I started wearing my hair curly, okay, I'm going to my mom's. It's gonna be the first time she's gonna make a comment. And my mom made a good comment. But I had my friends who were actually white. All of them, you know, encouraging me and letting me process. So just because you're white doesn't mean that there's not a place, you know, to help heal the brokenness of racism in our society. And it doesn't mean you have to go out there and lead a rally.

It could be so you're not responsible for the weight of everybody's life.

As simple as being a good friend, a good listener, not adding any microaggression insults to somebody. Just, you know, so. Yeah, this is a good episode.

Yeah.

Okay, so what this next question. What would you tell your younger self about navigating the impact of racism and sexual brokenness? Right. We can't go backwards. But what would you tell your younger self?

Yeah, I honestly feel like a lot of that is parenting today with our kids, Like. Like firsthand telling my younger self what I learned. But one thing that I. As I think through that question, speaking about racism, I'll use. I'll use a quick story. Like, when we were engaged, I don't even think we were engaged yet. I was taking her home from church. I was being the responsible Christian man. Take her home by a certain time. We got McDonald's, and we parked in the church parking lot right outside of our apartment complex, and we're literally debriefing the Bible study. A police car pulls up, knocks on the window. It's like, hey, sir. Hey, how you guys doing? Oh, we're doing good. Hey, I need you to step out the car. I'm like, okay. Everything all right, officer? Like, yeah, yeah, no worries. Everything's fine. Cuffs me and throws me on the ground. The narrative I'm telling myself, like, oh, my God, what do I do? I know I had a speeding ticket a while ago that I had to go to court for. Like, don't judge me. Um, Like, I'm. I'm telling this narrative. Like, I'm trying to figure out for myself which. Which goes to show how awful of a situation was. And I'm like, dang, my. My future wife is gonna leave me. Like, what does she think of me? Which. She had some of that. But then I hear her go to the other side of the car, say, hey, ma', am, do you have any guns, any weapons? And you just step out of the car and cuffs her and puts her on the ground. I'm like, okay, what is she doing? Like, what's going on?

Oh, my gosh.

Come to find out, squad cards get called in. He misread our plates by one Number. But we fit the description of what his words were. That traumatized me.

Oh, yes.

Still to this day, as I talk about it, what happened to us was not our fault. And this is what I would say. What happened to you with racism is not your fault. But what you do moving forward, you're responsible for, like, what you do with that experience. You can either a Like what my wife talked about, become hard and calloused, and just view the world through a lens of, like, hatred. And as Harry Flanagan, one of our clinicians, who is phenomenal, I meet with him every week. I love you and I can't stand you sometimes, Harry, because you kick my tail and I love it. But he talks about, like, the drama cycle. And one of them is victim. Like, blaming everybody for an experience that may have not been your control. But where you get to be healthy is when you are integrating. You're becoming creative. And all of these things where you're taking ownership of your stories. Like, what happened to me is not my fault. It's not my fault that he misread my plate, didn't read me my rights, and just automatically assumed I fit this description. But I am responsible with what I do with that experience because it can harden me or soften me. So as I raise our girls using, like, trauma that I've been through with race and even sexual brokenness is taking responsibility for the things that I was responsible for and not controlling the things that I didn't have control over. And speaking truth and love for my girls is a part of, like, me talking to my younger self. Like, Emmanuel, like, it's not your fault you were called the N word. It's not your fault that you're black. Like, own who you are. Like, you're created in the image of God. You're a reflection. You're an image bearer. Like, own that. So that's what I would tell you.

So encouraging.

I would probably just say, like, very simple, is, you're valuable. Like, if I'm speaking directly to my child self right now is you're valuable. And that alone, I think, would have been enough in that season of life I was in. Just knowing that everything I am and every way that I am created, I'm valuable and love.

Well, Emmanuel Michelle, thank you so much for coming and being vulnerable. I know this is a super tough topic.

Yeah, thank you, guys.

I know I'm always like, okay, I'm gonna come in and stir the water.

Like, what? How much do you want to know? You know me, though.

I stir water. So thank you so much for coming in and sharing.

Thank you guys so much.

Okay, well, wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.