307 - Betrayal As A Pastor's Wife w/ Michelle Stumbo

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted.

Sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hey there. I'm your host, Ashley Jamison, and you are listening to episode 307 of the Pure Desire podcast, Women's Takeover. Here joining me today, as always, is my co host, Heather Kolb. Hey.

Hey.

I know. We're back.

I know.

It's so good to be back. Hi. Have the office back, even though the lights are green and we'd rather have them be something else. Pink or purple? Oh, yellow. Oh, chartreuse.

That's right.

They're chartreuse. We love being in this space because we put our brains together and just thought about. I mean, I guess every time we do this, I think about recent topics that have come up and for us to have the ability to address them. So today we had Michelle Stumbo, who, for those of you who don't know her, is Nick Stumbo's wife. And we got to do kind of a behind the scenes, the other perspective. Being a pastor's wife and being a betrayed pastor's wife and what that looks like.

It was really fun to just have a little bit of a fresh perspective, because I know a lot of times Nick hosts the podcast and he tells a lot of his story. And so just hearing that same story from Michelle's perspective, I thought was just really fun and different because of just being the partner. And we don't really get to ever hear how she struggled specifically or with what things that she did. But also, I think it was good to just have that perspective of somebody, a partner, who has experienced betrayal but can't really tell anybody about it because of her husband's position. And so that was really. I thought that that was encouraging to hear kind of what it looked like realistically for their healing journey. And. And just even kind of their timeline I thought would be encouraging to other women, too.

Yeah. And, you know, when you're a pastor's wife or even a pastor, you kind of feel like you don't have anybody to go to. Even if your church runs groups, they're. They're not usually, you know, expecting the pastor to be like, hi, guys, I need help. So, yeah, I just really enjoyed hearing her because I've gotten calls, um, you know, in the group's department of, oh, my. My husband is a doctor or my husband is the town judge, or, you know, other things that I think are just as applicable as. As being a pastor's wife. And so, yeah, it was a good episode, and we think you're really gonna like it. So. But before we jump into that, we have got a few things to cover. First one, subscribe to the podcast. You can watch the full episode on YouTube. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, subscribe, do it, don't wait. You can find us on all major platforms and please give us a review because it helps more people find us and this message and hope. Second, follow us on social media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, @ PureDesire PDMI. And if you like to consume video content, the full episode is available on YouTube. Pure Desire Ministries. And this is also a good episode to bring up our counseling that we offer because sometimes you do feel like your situation maybe is a little bit more unique or something. Maybe you're not comfortable to jump right into a group. And you know, on the episode today, Michelle talked about how counseling was so good for them. And we do have a counseling offering. So, Heather, do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah. So we have different types of programs for people who need some extra help to just kind of walk through their healing journey. We have counseling that like is a couples a 12 month commitment. We also have counseling that is just for the disclosure process because sometimes people, you know, they, they do well in group and they're making good strides in their healing, but when it comes to that disclosure process, they might need a little extra help. And so we just have some different programs. And counseling has been really, really a helpful addition to the group experience for.

A lot of couples.

So if you want more information about that, go to PureDesire.org counseling All right.

Here'S our time with Michelle Stumbo on betrayal as a pastor's wife. Okay, well, today we're very excited. We have a special guest. We called her our VIP guest. We tossed around the idea of a title for this episode many times. We were like, okay, behind the scenes, VIP exclusive. Because we feel so privileged to get to be here with Nick Stumbo's wife to get the other's perspective.

Right?

Yeah, Women's takeover. We hear Nick all the time talking about his story, you know, sprinkling it in. So Heather and I put our brains together of questions that we get a lot from women. And especially, you know, working in the groups department, I get calls from women who will say, my husband is the town pediatrician or my husband is the sheriff or my husband is something something or other. Something or other something or another that's like prominent. And so they have this extra layer of shame and obstacles in getting healing because they're thinking, okay, if my husband, who's the family doctor, is in a group or sex addicted men, how is that going to look for me and for him and our community? And people just don't know where to go. So we thought it'd be fun to interview you and just see not only your perspective as a betrayed spouse, but specifically a spouse of somebody who's in the light and shepherding other people, you know, as a pastor. So.

Yep.

Thank you for joining us.

You're welcome. I was gonna make a joke about singing because Nick Sussy sings on all of his stuff.

Oh, dude, that'd be so fun.

But I couldn't think of anything to sing.

I'm singing.

So let's just jump in. So first off, just tell us a little bit about yourself and this other part, like, how you became connected with people. Pure desire. And again, we've heard that a lot from Nick's perspective, and so I'm excited to hear your answer.

No pressure. Well, I'm a second grade teacher and I have four kids married to Nick, as you guys know. Yeah, we spoke at Focus on the Family and I've done a podcast here. But really, pure desire came into our life because Nick struggled. And I heard that there was this guy Ted Roberts coming to our church domination conference. And I was like, oh, they're talking about pouring. Can I come? Because you really need help. So I showed up at that and was just curious, like, what. What are they going to say? And had no idea that they were going to say, hey, we know that, you know, this percentage of pastors struggle and we want to help you. And I was like, yes.

Wow.

They want to help you, sign you up. So I actually was crying, like, next to him, like, oh, my gosh, answer to my prayer. And what I didn't know is how much that whole process of going through Pure desire was gonna change my life and, like, how much I needed it. Cause I was like, I know you need it, but I had no idea, like, that I also needed it. So, yeah, that's where we heard about it and the journey started.

Yeah, that's a good point you made that there's a. There's a number of betrayed spouses that can be on either side of the fence of, I'm so hurt, I'm so broken. I need something. And then there's another, you know, side of it that, like me, like, well, you're the one that's addicted, so get help. Then our problem will be solved. And we have no idea. The. The Layers of trauma and pain that come from that, especially if it's been years that you've been, you know, going through with your spouse. So it's important for betrayed spouses to get in group and. Yeah. And process through that, even if they don't think they need it, because you don't want to carry any of that around.

Yeah. And also all the tools that you get in the books and resources, like, gives you common language, so, like, you can use that common language and, like, discuss all of the things that need to be discussed. You know, there's a lot of things and, like, figure out, like, I had no idea that there even was really trauma in my life. You know, like, I had a pretty good life. And going through all this stuff, I'm like, oh, my goodness, I have this and this. And just expressing to Nick, like, well, I don't feel hurt or, you know, I didn't. I didn't have words to put to any of my feelings or thoughts or anything until going through her desire or support.

I remember support being like, I don't ever want to be the naggy because I was a love addict. So once I got my prize, I was like, I need to be perfect.

So I even had this rule where.

I was like, bite the inside of my cheeks if I had something that I wanted to, like, that was annoying me. You know, I was really just training myself to be more and more passive aggressive because I would not say anything. And then I would, like, slam a kitchen door or wish somebody would help me with these towels or, you know, whatever. And so I just saw voicing your needs as really needy. And I didn't want to be a needy person. And then when I got in group, I'm like, oh, it's very normal, like, to have needs and have, like, an interdependence, not a codependence. But, you know, that that's. That's normal.

Yeah.

It was very interesting to learn more kids later.

Well, and it seems like for a lot, pastor's wives, specifically, they don't necessarily. I mean, as long as it's a secret, they don't really have anybody to talk to about it. And so we. I mean, I think that that's one of the things that pure desire does really well is that this isn't something that is shameful. It's just something that needs healing. And we want to heal both people in the relationship. And so it really does give a place for wives to be with other betrayed partners who can speak that same language and who have a Shared story, which is so empowering, I think, for women.

Yeah, yeah. It's a little nerve wracking to be a pastor's wife and be like, yeah, my husband struggles with pornography. Like, what are they gonna think? You know.

Many partners worry that disclosing to their kids will do more damage to the family. What was your experience with this and how did it help your family begin to heal together?

I kind of think this is like a two part answer because when we went through pure desire the first time, our kids were like 7 and younger. And Luke wasn't born yet, so he didn't get born till a year after recovery. Our pure baby. Sorry. But I think with Alyssa, she was really the only oldest. She's our oldest and she was the only one that ever asked a question like, why do we have to go to this group every week? You know, and are you guys okay? And we're like, yeah, Nick actually had a really good answer. He probably, he's probably said it, but he told her, well, dad, Daddy hurt mommy. And so we're going to group to get help. And I think that was enough for her to just be like, okay, you're not getting a divorce, or, you know, you're not mad at each other. Something bad's not going to happen. As the kids got older, we just continued to have a conversation and use our story to help guide those conversations. So, yeah, when the kids have questions about pornography or something their friends are asking or relationships, like, we can always kind of guide them back through either the tools we've used or through our story of disclosure to, like, help them see why it's important not to look at porn or why, you know, we are saying what we're doing, not just like, don't do it because God says so. You know, like, here's the reasons, here's what it does to your brain, and here's how addictive it is, and here's what it can do to your marriage or your relationships. And then they've seen us processing all that and dealing with all that. And we've always, like, communicated really openly with them so they know that it's truth. And Nick takes the kids out, like when they're 12 and does like, a bigger disclosure of like, what his job is and what he's done and what our whole story is. And so I think that's really good. Like, you kind of like, I don't feel like disclosure for us has been like, okay, we disclosed to the kids and now we're done. Like, they were little and Then they got older, and so now here's another piece. And then like, maybe when they're, you know, about to get married or something like that, there's another piece. Like, there's always a layer of disclosure, I feel like. And another thing I think hopefully we've done well is like when the boys were little and you'd be like, grocery shopping or shopping at Target. There's images everywhere, right? So, like teaching them all the things, like, well, this is. We're going to bounce our eyes because we want you to only, you know, see your wife someday and just teaching them those little things. And I've already kind of seen them, like when they're watching TV or playing a video game, like, they're looking away and I'm like. And they're like, oh, there was a inappropriate thing, or. And I'm like, I'm so proud of you. Sometimes they're faster than their dad, but I've just seen that. And then, like, the boys especially, like, they'll have a lot more questions than the girls related to like, pornography and things. And I just, they. They come to me right now because they're younger, but, like, I think as they get older, they'll go more to their dad. But I can just always use my story, like, to help them say, well, this is, you know, why that's bad. And this is. I told Luke the other day, like, because he was worried about his friends and some things they're doing. And I was like, well, he didn't want to like, get in trouble for telling. And I was like, well, bud, this is like a drug. And if your kids were. If your friends were doing drugs, you'd want their parents to know, right? So, yeah, I don't know. It's just been a process, continued process.

It's so good. I think, I mean, I think that there can never be like an over sharing. Do you know what I mean? Or not taking opportunity to do that when your kids are little. I even remember in the grocery stores, especially when they'd have all the magazines or whatever. And sometimes I would turn them around, even when my kids were little, but then they would get to the age where they're like, why do you do that? And I would just say, this is inappropriate. But then when you see them together and they're still little, but one is looking at something or, or they start using that language with each other, they start telling each other that it's inappropriate. I loved that as a mom because it's like, okay, this is working. Even though they didn't really have a full concept of what that word meant necessarily. But still, I think that that was so good for them.

Yeah, yeah. It reminds me, there's this store in Spokane. I don't know if you guys have Rosars here. We have Rosars in Washington, but they have a family friendly aisle. And it has none of the magazines and it's like none of the gum, none of the candy, none of the magazines. It's like bananas and whatever. But it is. I mean, it is everywhere. And so I like what you're saying is it's just. It's not disclosure. It's just you're. That's part of your story and you are just sharing your story and implementing it in your life and teaching your kids along the way. Which is what we're supposed to do is just teach them along the way and be real about our experiences. So it's. Yeah, I mean, it's everywhere. Over and over and over and over. It's not one.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, we're doing something kind of like, we kind of like the old fashioned thought. Like the sex talk is like a one and done. It's like, yeah, no, that's like a continual thing that you just keep doing as your kids ask questions. Yeah, they're like constantly just making it an accessible thing to talk about.

Right. Yeah. And I was gonna say because even for me as an adult, I'll get out of a group whether I'm leading a betrayal and beyond or an unraveled. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad to not be in group for a while. And then about six months later, I'm.

Like, okay, maybe I need a group again.

Like, even as adults, we need constant rerouting. Like, oh, I've been eating too much candy and watching too much tv. And so we can't expect differently from our kids.

So we often hear that this is a three to five year process, the healing process. So how accurate do you think this timeline is?

I think it's pretty accurate. At least in our story. It was. I think the first year was super hard. Just because I was waiting for that shoe to drop. Like he'd, you know, 10 years had told people or we'd set boundaries or what I thought was boundaries. You know, they weren't like pure desire. Good. Boundaries.

You set restrictions.

Yeah, it was just like, I'm never going there again. I don't know. But I was still really scared that it wasn't going to work. And I was still really numb and so the first year was hard for me, I think for both of us, because he was seeing all the things that he wasn't doing. But I only knew what he had disclosed over the time. I didn't know every thought or everything that he was like, oh, now I'm not doing. That's all in there. And so he was, like, feeling so proud and confident, and I was like, yeah, it's good you're not relapsing. Okay, that's good. But I think he wanted me to be, like, more excited and more proud of him. But I couldn't really see, you know, I didn't see, like, this drastic change right at first. In that first year. It was just like, I hope. I hope it works, but I'm still, like, scared that it's not going to. And then probably the next two and three years, you know, just going to group and leading groups is really what provided more healing because I was able to, like, process all of the things with other women who were also sharing in the same things. And. And Nick and I just, like, communicated a lot more. Like, I thought we were good communicators before Pure Desire. I was like, we are such good communicators. And then we went through Pure Desire, and I'm like, oh, we were terrible communicators. Like, you didn't know anything I was feeling or thinking. And the first year also had a lot of secrecy. Like, the church didn't know, my family didn't know, my friends didn't know. And you're the pastor's wife, so it's like, why are you crying? Oh, I just really moved by that song. Not, you know, we're going through this really hard thing. So that was really hard. And so, like, the second year, when the church knew and family and friends knew, and I felt supported, it was. I think I was able to finally, like, okay, like, this is gonna work. And the shoe didn't drop. So then it was like, okay, this really does work. And the hope just kept building and building. Another thing we like to do is talk about the faster scales. So, like, before your desire, it was like, how you doing? Oh, I'm good. But really, like, not good. Like, he just hadn't, like, he was good enough that he didn't feel like he had to tell me. Good, right?

Right. Yeah. I'm not at the bottom.

Then, like, the faster scales gave us a better, like, where are you at on your faster scale? And helped me see as long as he wasn't, like, way down at the bottom, like, okay, we're good. We're good. And then him being in group was like another layer of, like, I can trust that he's in a group and that they're helping him. And that was. It was just another layer of helping me heal because I didn't have to be his accountability partner. He had that. And I felt like it was working. And that's what I could see. I could see that he was dedicated to his group, that we were going through the peer desire counseling, which was super helpful, and I was learning a lot, and I could see, you know, little changes over. Over the course of those years, and then trust was built because the shoe didn't drop, guys.

Yeah, that's so good. And I. I can relate to you just, you know, if you have fairly decent relationship, even with problems, but you haven't learned all of this stuff, you don't. You don't know how to connect your thoughts and feelings or even how to articulate that, then, you know, John and I said the same thing. Oh, we don't need to go to that stupid marriage group. We could probably teach it. And, like, here we are, like, our marriage is falling apart under the surface. And I had no idea, you know, because I didn't know. John never confessed to me off and on, like Nick did with you. And our shoe did drop multiple times. Yeah, but. But there was, like, a net, you know, there's a safety net of, okay, we know what to do. We have a group. We have these tools. And I so agree, like, the way that you can see your addict spouse begin to get a little bit more in touch with why they do what they do and their thoughts and their feelings and being able to articulate more than I'm good or bad or, you know, just, I'm feeling a little anxious. And I, you know, procrastinated at work, which gave me some anxiety. So then I came home and I was more angry with the kids. Like, to be able to see that level of awareness is so good, and you can kind of see the growth when that stuff starts happening. For sure.

Well, and I think that it's also just so encouraging for women to hear this, because we get women in group that, I mean, they don't ever want it to go back to the same, but they really want to stop feeling the pain and just to recognize that this is going to be a process for both people involved and that if it takes you even, like you said, a year of just still, like, being cautious but working on your own healing, that that's okay. And to just give yourself that time and that grace to go through whatever you need to go through to get to the other side of it, I think is so helpful.

Yeah. Because I mean, that sounds like a long time, but worth it.

It does sound like a long time. I remember thinking, like, I am not going to be with you for five years feeling like this. But I will say that it starts to feel different even at, like day 60 and day 90. And then you might have slumps, but you don't feel the same level of pain and hopelessness on day, you know, year five that you do. Day one. It does change. So there's enough there, there's enough breadcrumbs to be like, oh, this is good, this is better. So. Yeah, well, you kind of touched on your not good boundaries that you had in place before. Pure desire. But one question that I wanted to ask you, because I get it a lot as the women's group director, is that the healing process, you. You put in boundaries. And so we kind of want to know, like, what were things that made you feel safe that you put in place? And the bigger question that I've been getting lately is how do you know when you want to stretch them? Because I know Nick tells a story about him saying something. I don't remember if it was the phone or whatever. And he's like. And then her eyes got all big and I was like, okay, nevermind. I guess that boundary is not ready to be stretched. But that's a question I get, like, sometimes I get a question from the. The addict spouse, like, oh my gosh, am I really gonna have to never go to the gym again forever? It's been five years or it's been three years and. Or when can I go to this place again? Or when can I have this? Or when can I be allowed on the Internet? And then the betrayed spouse is saying, I'm not ready for that. And so kind of, okay, the crisis has healed, you know, there's no acting out. But you have boundaries. When do you know to stretch them? And I mean, was that comfortable for you to have to stretch your boundaries? Or did you wait until you're like, I don't need that anymore. You can go do that again. Or, you know, just like, what did that look like for you guys? Well, solve all the problems.

I'm trying. That was a lot.

Yeah.

At first we had like a ton of boundaries. And mostly, like, he had made a list of like, here's the boundaries I've set for myself. And then, you know, over time It's. It's evolved in pure desire to, like, three circles and these other things. And the. I'm blanking on the name of the thing that they do. Commitment to change each week. You know, so things have been added in over time, but anything that was a trigger, anything like that, I knew that he had done or gone to or whatever. Like, that was a trigger. Like, had a boundary, like, for me, like, okay, can't do that. That. That. Um, and it was, like, really hard for him to, like, have those. Like, not at first. Like, when he was like, okay, I'm losing my marriage. I'll do anything, right? Like, then it was fine. But then when he felt, oh, I'm confident. I'm good. Like, it's been a year. It's been two years.

This is exactly the spot I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, he is so confident, and I'm like, why would we change them? They're working, right?

So now you're, like, at this.

This is why you're doing so good. So let's just keep the attitude.

So good. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's how I felt for. I don't. I don't have, like, a memory of, like. Here's the timeline of, like, oh, this was the day. I was fine with all the boundaries, but we did throughout the first. Probably the first five, seven years, you know, revisit him every once in a while when he was getting confident and wanted to, like, break one or if he broke one, I'm like, hey, that's a boundary. But there's consequence for that. We would talk about, like, well, why do I still need that? Or do I still need that? Can we adjust it somehow to, like, give him a little, you know, flexibility, but also. So I still feel safe. So over time, we've kind of adjusted him. A few of them have, like, totally gone away, and some of them, I think, like, for a while, it was like, you will always be in a group. And I think he's mostly been in a group every year since, maybe multiple groups. But I've let them have a couple groups off here, and they're like, okay, you're kind of stressed out right now. Take. Take a. Take a year off. Take a month off.

Yeah, that kind of is what. You know, just that wrestling that you have to go through because it's such complex work. It's not as clear as these are the boundaries, and these are the things that make me feel safe when you. When you have two spouses that seemingly are doing well. Like you said, for Maybe your two years. And everything's been going great. And you're like, this is why, you know, yeah, we can live in a cave the rest of our lives.

It's totally fine.

You don't ever have to go to the grocery store again.

You don't need a phone.

You don't ever have to go to the gym. But then, you know, this. This person, this other person that's the struggler, that's getting healthier and is like, I think I can stretch some areas. And like you said, some stay forever. Because it's just good marriage boundary. Like, it's just good things to have in place, you know, around your marriage.

But he had like a. What do you call it? Smart guy, dumb phone or something. Dumb phone, smart guy. I don't remember what he called it. But for forever and, like, finally, I don't remember what year. Maybe year seven. I was like. He was like, do you think I can have a smartphone? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if you can handle that. But I was like, yeah, you probably can.

So, Yeah, I remember that conversation, too. The last dumb phone I ordered, John was like, I had to get it off ebay. And I felt like I was black marketing. You know, where do I get a phone? On the Internet. And you. And then our. I guess our example was when he wanted to go to the gym. And that's where I had to. At first. You're like, one and two. I was like, absolutely not. And he's a firefighter. I've told his story. He gets paid an hour a day to go work out, so it's really important that he stays fit. And I'm like, well, find a man gym. Like, find whatever they have for men that's like, curves. There's nothing.

There's nothing.

So I'm like, okay, shoot. So I was just like, no, I'm not ready for that. And then I think it was like, year three, he asked again. He's like. But the way he asked was so different, too. It was like, when we get home, can we have a conversation about the gym? It wasn't in a tense moment, you know, where I was like, that's a red flag. So then we just put boundaries in. Like, okay, I think I'm ready. But I had to, like you said, ask myself the questions. What. What is this boundary for? And that's when I realized, this boundary is him. Going to the gym has never been a place, like, where he relapses. You know, video games always lead to relapses.

I hate those.

But the gym hasn't. You know, it could be a trigger, like, because he sees women in workout clothes. But that was more about even me. Like, I don't want him seeing other women thinking they're prettier, they're more in shape, because I'm like this dowdy housewife, like, soft everywhere still. But I. I didn't want him to go and see those prettier women. And so then I was like, okay, this really is more about my insecurities. And he can see pretty women anywhere.

Yeah.

Especially when you live near a beach. So, yeah, the gym is not going to be the thing that saves him. And maybe having exercise each day would actually help his mental health better because he gets depressed in the winter because they're so long. And so that was kind of my moment where I was like, okay, I think I'm okay with stretching this boundary. But if we're in a fight, you can't walk out the door and be like, I'm going to the gym. Because that has been used before. So that if you're on your way home, you can't say, and I'm expecting you because we have four kids, you know?

Yeah.

You can't say, oh, I'm gonna stop at the gym first. Like, if I know you're gonna be home at 5:30, I have it timed out. Like, I know you have to come home. And the other thing was, like, sometimes you go two a day. And I'm like, we're parents of four kids. You don't get two a days. I mean, you don't get to go in the morning and evening. What? That makes me feel, like, not only just suspicious, but also selfish, you know, so we have a lot of things to do. And. And so now he's able to go. I mean, we don't have a gym in our new town, but, you know, he was able to go and I was able to feel fine about it. And then I think I might have even gone with him a couple times just to, like, see. And then I was like, I don't really want to do this anymore. Yeah.

And I think it's important, like, boundaries help the betrayed spouse feel safe. Like, it's something that they can, they can have and hold onto and access and you guys can talk about, you know, and it can be flexible and changing, but, like, it's something that really helps you, like, feel safe. Like, okay, I know he's doing these things and so I can trust that. Trust the process. Yeah. That's how I felt.

Yeah, that is good. So many of us at Pure Desire, we've gone through the healing process and we've actually watched it, our healing spill over into other areas, like in our relationships and the way we parent and. And in these different areas. So for you in your situation, how did you see that happen in your healing journey?

Well, I think how I'd like to answer this. I don't know if this is like the answer you're looking for, but our oldest is like, really strong willed and I don't have the best relationship with my mom. And so I've always kind of been a fear, like, oh, my goodness, my daughters aren't gonna love me. Like, we're not gonna be friends when we're older because I don't know, I'm gonna mess up. And she's really strong willed. And so we get into heated arguments, you know, because she has to have the last word. And I feel like she says she's 18 now and this has been since she's two guys, two to 18. So. Hold on. But over, like, I. I feel like the tools that Pure Desire gave me that I didn't have before is like I always just shoved my feelings down. Like, I just, like, I'll just, you know, have my feelings and the next day everything will be fine because that's what I grew up seeing. Like. Yeah, like they'll say mean things or whatever, and then you just move on the next day and nothing, like, nothing happened. And so I didn't want that to be our story. And your desire gave me like, okay, I want to, you know, you can go in after. And I talked to her, you know, apologize, like, hey. And I even use words like, when you said this, it tapped into my trauma of origin timeline when, you know, I'm not feeling heard or listened to or lied to or. And. And then, you know, we're able to talk through it with a better language, I guess. And she knows our story. And she even like, just last night she. She was being her awesome teenage self and then she came in later and she's like, oh, I'm sorry I said that, Mom. I know you're going through a lot too, you know, so like, oh, that's great. I feel like we're gonna be friends.

You will. You will be friends.

And then I haven't totally messed her up, but I definitely have seen it with the kids, like just talking with them. Some of the, Some of the things that I've learned, I'm just not a very good Communicator. As you guys can tell, we've also used the faster scale with the kids to, like, hey, where are you guys at? Not a ton, but, like, they've. They've come with us. They've come to us with questions about something. I can't remember exactly what. And we're like, you know what? There's a good tool that we use in your desire, and it's called this faster scale. You can stay in restoration with God and know where you are. Especially with Alyssa. She has a lot of anxiety and different things. And then also, like, with my parents, I feel like I didn't really know how to talk to them about hard issues. And my relationship with my mom is a little rocky, and I just was able to, like, set boundaries with them. Like, these are healthy boundaries, and this isn't wrong to have these with you. And whether they want to, right, like, participate in them, that's up to them. But I, you know, was able to sit with my mom a few years ago and, like, just stay there. And when she, you know, she just wanted to, like, give up because we weren't coming up with a. An answer, I just kept like, well, I'll just stay here till we can figure something out. Like, I just felt like I was more calm in the situation because of going through Zire and had, like, a voice, and I wanted to be heard, even though maybe she didn't hear me. I'm not sure how that went, but they've kind of struggled with this whole disclosure story, and I think it's been really hard on them, like, to handle. And then, yeah, our relationship is not that great, but I think the tools help in conversations that we have had.

Well, and I think you bring up a good point, because we can only have control of ourselves in our own story. And so you're. You're saying this is how I've used these tools to learn, you know, from my own childhood. And now I'm able to apply some of these things to how I'm parenting my child. And I want it to be different, and apologizing is different, and being verbal about areas you've made mistakes, which is something you didn't get experience. And you see that working, you know, with Alyssa, and I see that working similarly with my twins. But then you have this other family over here where if. If they're stuck or not receptive, that's also not your fault. You know, so now you put in tools of, how do I keep myself safe or, you know, sane or, you know, whether that's somebody that's not safe and you have to cut ties off and you're at least learn the tools to do that. Or your situation with your parents sounds so similar to mine with one of my family members where it's like I will continue to main relationship but I know because of how badly they can hurt me with their words and actions that it will kind of look like this and I'll make sure I have these kind of like escape plans and you know, depending on where they're at, you can't have. But then like with my mom, I use those same tools and seen so much growth in her and our relationship and so now she's a safe person. Yeah, this family member's not. So either way, going through the process of healing and figuring out your own needs and what you need as a person and as a family and a mom, you're able to apply them regardless. However, you know how other people respond.

And I don't know if it's still in the books because I haven't done a book in a year, but there was that, that, that thing we do.

The thing you do.

The thing we do. There's. There was, there was that. Anyways, when I was in a group the gals and I did one of the exercises in the book where like they stand in as my parents and I get to share. Yeah, Proxy, thank you. I knew you would know everything. I know. I'm like, it's been a while and I can't think of this word. But yeah, they did. We did the proxy and I didn't do that with every group. The ladies didn't want to. And I was like, yeah, it's kind of an option.

Yeah.

But this group was like, oh, we are doing it. And I was like, oh God, this.

Is so outside of my comfort zone.

This is the best group ever. But it was so great because I don't know that I'm ever going to be able to talk to my parents and feel heard and understood and have them say that they're sorry or like to have that reconciliation and forgiveness which I am so wanting because I feel like that's what the Bible asks us to do. And so that was like super healing for me. Like I almost feel like it happened for real even though it was like a stand in. And I know you can do that. Like one of the gals dads had passed away and she needed to, you know, reconcile some things and it was like really, really good. That's one of my favorite tools now.

It is that is so great.

I was just going to say we did stuff like that in the grief release class, too, that I took. And I think some people need that. You know, like, if you have a relationship that's not going to heal, even if it's your spouse, you may need betrayal beyond. And to put some weeks into, like, a grief release, because it's a loss. It's a loss you want, but you also don't have control over.

Yeah. Yeah.

That is a really good tool. And I think that that's just telling about the power of healing is that the healthier that we get, I think the more we recognize unhealthy relationships and that possibility that those other people, they might not ever be to a place where they want that kind of healing, you know, but that doesn't. But that still means that I need healing for myself, and that might mean that I lose that relationship. Yeah, it is really hard.

Yeah. Thank you for that. That's so good. Because I've seen that healing. When we get healing, like Heather said, it does kind of. It goes downward to our kids and upward to our parents, and it has the ability to really break those generational curses. But sometimes not because we can only control ourselves. Um, but speaking from a pastor's wife perspective, what, if any, were some extra obstacles? You kind of touched on this earlier. And if somebody's listening and they do have that husband that's in maybe a more public position, a judge, a doctor, a teacher, something that adds that level of, oh, this person provides care and, you know, teaching to other people, what would you say to encourage them or how can you share about how you kind of got over that hurdle?

I mean, I hope it's encouraging, but I mean, I think definitely being in the limelight or spotlight or whatever leadership position, there's always going to be extra obstacles because people put you on a pedestal and they expect you to be perfect and your kids be perfect and everything to be perfect. And nobody's perfect in a glass house. But I think it was just being so alone before. Pure desire. Like, when your husband's in a position of leadership, like, you don't want them to lose their job. Right. So you can't tell anybody. And he had told, you know, people in the church, the elders knew, and his senior pastor before he became senior pastor. But, like, nobody I knew knew, you know, like, I couldn't tell anybody. So it was just like this. It was just this really depressing alone based to be in. Like, I didn't have a friend. I could tell because, like, all my friends were in the church. I didn't have anybody, like, not in the church or, you know, just like a random friend in Idaho, like you do now.

Marco. There wasn't Marco Polo.

There wasn't Marco Polo nothing. And I think so, yeah, there was that. And then I. I don't know if this is helpful, but, like, the church, our church was so good and gracious. Like, when we disclosed, it was like, whoa. Like, I remember that day feeling like this whole burden. Even though, like, I was super scared that, like, there would be a mass exodus or like all my friends would like, no longer be my friends because they couldn't believe that, you know, Nick had this addiction or. I don't know, you just like, think the worst. Like, what if they think he's like, creepy or something? You know, like, what if they don't know? But that's not what happened. And so it was just like this. This burden of like, I'm not alone anymore. Like, people know. And so, like, if I'm having a hard day, I can be like, here's why, or right. Whatever. And then the groups we started in our church were like, my friends. And it was like, now I have friends and we can go through this together. And so that was like, super helpful for me.

That's what I kind of noticed was it. It's hard to get past that first hurdle of, like, getting into a group or going to counseling. But then once you're there, especially with group, because there's so many people, you. You have all these different stories and it's like, well, my husband, you know, he had an affair with an 18 year old. Or my. Like, there's all these different stories that make. Or my husband had an affair with another man that, yeah, we all have these, like, different stories were coming from. And. And. But once you're to group, it's like this breath of fresh air of, oh, okay. We. We're all sounding very similar. Yeah, our stories are different. You know, that our pain and the way that we feel is very similar. And that I think quickly heals, like, creates a bond. Some of my good friends were in my first group too, but it's just. It's hard to get over that mental hurdle of I'm going to join group.

And they're gonna know everything. They're gonna know everything.

Yeah, they're gonna judge me. What if I see somebody I know and it's like, well, if you see somebody, you know, they're there too. Like, just try it, you know? But, yeah, I mean, and I think.

People came up then. They were like, we're glad it's you. Which was a weird thing to hear. They're like, we're glad it's you. And I was like, what do you mean by that? But it was like, because they knew us. Like, they knew the people. We were just in all the other areas of our life. And they knew Nick as a pastor, and they were like, if this worked for you, then maybe there's hope. Or like, if you struggled with this and I, you know, then. And I struggle with it, like, and you got help, like, this is.

Yeah.

Gonna work.

You're pretty. And if your husband did say, I've.

Got that before, like, but you're pretty.

Because only people who have ugly wives look at porn. Not true. Not true. It's not about you. You did not make them look at porn. They did it before. Probably you even get in the picture.

I think I've said this before, like, to people like, o, hey, you preach the gospel and then you preach your desire. Like, those are the two things. Like, one, two.

That's what I like that with that same question of, you know, what obstacles do you face as a pastor's wife? If you are a pastor's wife, then that means that you're likely still in, you know, you may be still in the ministry. So get yourself like you guys did. Nick went outside of the church first for group, which was safer for him. And then bring it back like you guys did, you know, and. And no. Just like we know with our families, once we get healthy and we present. This is what I need to feel safe and stop experiencing your abuse. They may either. They may either receive that they may leave and that we can't control. And so going and getting help, whether it's through counseling. We have the Pure Desire Leaders program, you know, or going to a group. And then once you and your spouse own your story and you're ready, then you bring it back to your church and just know some people may leave, but the people who don't are going to be so thankful. And then from that point on, it's just regular fabric in the church. It's just regular conversation. So.

Yeah.

So then I would imagine somebody in the audience or in the congregation, if they have a husband, regardless of their position, would at least feel comfortable to maybe go to the pastor's wife or somebody else that's, you know, talked about it.

Yeah.

But it's scary.

It is scary.

Yeah. So we've kind of touched on this a little bit already. But were Your friends and family supportive during your recovery and healing process. And then also, do you have any words of encouragement for those who might not have support outside of their Pure desire group?

I don't know if I can answer both of those, but I'll try. Yeah, we did have a lot of friends and family that were super supportive. But, like, I did kind of mention earlier, I think the hardest one to deal with was my parents. I think they just, like, were really mad at Nick for hurting their daughter and couldn't really get past that, and they couldn't. What was hard was they didn't think about it in, like, for me or for Nick, but, like, kind of turned it more back on themselves and were, like, upset. I don't know, like a person. Like, it was a personal attack on men. And I'm like, this isn't about you. This is about me. So that. That was really hard because I just expected parents, like, what would I do if my kid, like, came to me? But maybe it's because I have all this healthy healing knowledge, but, like, I wouldn't. I would want to be there for them, like, and offer grace and forgiveness and love and all the things. Because they're, you know, believers. And that's just been really hard to not have that from them. I think my dad is more so. But, like, not just not to have their words of, like, hey, we're praying for you, or, you know, we've been married now longer without addiction than we have with addiction. But I still feel like my mom is so angry at Nick, and so that's really hard. I don't know if that answered the question, but other people, like my mom's sisters, they're like, oh, we're so proud of you. You're doing such a great ministry. And so I think just, like, you're gonna get. You're gonna have people in your life, family, friends who are gonna affirm you, and you're gonna have family and friends that are not gonna understand or they're gonna be upset, or maybe they're dealing with their own thing. And so it, like, is a trigger or something for them. But just to, like, I've been trying really hard to do, like, just take all the positive things and try to really speak those out. And, like, those are truth. Like, that's what's true. And the negative ones just be like, okay, learn. This is yours. Like, take that one. And then I've really liked in the new book that I did those, like, daily gratitude things just to keep in mind, like, well, what Am I grateful for. Because we can't control others. I don't know if I answered the.

I think it was good because you talked about don't have an expectation, basically because we can't. You know, people are either gonna support you or they're not. You know, but you still have to just own your story and get healthy. And sometimes that does come at a cost. So I think that's a realistic expectation because we do have betrayed spouses that don't get the support that they need or want from their. Either their side or their husband's side. And that's just a reality. So if you can kind of have that healthy dose of reality, not to put, you know, scare you, but, like, some people are not going to support you guys and what you're doing and that's. That's okay. Like, there's still. You still have a lot of good things going on.

Yeah.

Michelle, tell us your final words. The one thing that will help and heal and offer hope to all.

Wow. That was the loaded question. I think I would encourage you all to give yourself grace. That like I said earlier, the timeline isn't the same for everyone. And just because I have found healing in two years doesn't mean it's not going to take you five or.

Right.

Just because, you know, Nick didn't relapse over and over and over during our recovery, like, it doesn't mean that if your husband or wife does like that it's not going to work. Yeah, you know, just like stick with the process. The process works. It's hard work. But I feel like if you dive in and just really, really, like, do all the hard things that it requires and communicate, communicate, communicate over and over and over. Because your husband can't read your mind. I know we all want them believe that they can, but they can't to just, yeah, it. Peer desire program works. And I think that the biggest thing for me also, and probably for Nick too, is like, we went through the program and then we led others in the program. And I think because I was numb the first, you know, year, maybe two, like then leading other groups, I was like, oh, like, stuff started to sink in because I was no longer like, in that, like, she was like that panic stage. I was able to, like, heal and it took a few years.

So that's really good advice for the betrayed spouse and the addict that when you go in, you're in crisis, you're. There's so many things you're thinking about, are we even gonna make it how you're like, how are we gonna tell everybody, you know, by year two or.

Three, what if it doesn't work?

Right. So that's why we say you have to do it a few times and, you know, get some traction and then. Then lead others, because it's a different level of. I really want to help these women have hope. So I also need to put yeah. In place. It keeps you going when maybe you're at the point where you're like, okay, I don't want to do this anymore.

Yeah.

And so leading others is a really great way to do that too.

Yeah. I was kind of at that point, like, oh, I think I'm done leading groups. And then, you know, the women all come to you, like, are you. Oh, you. You've done this? Like, do you want to lead a group? I'm like, oh, okay. And like, it was the best group I've ever had. I'm like, oh, thank you, Lord. It was like the refresh I needed, you know?

Yeah. Yep.

Well. And the more you go through it, it seems like every time that I go through a group, I learn something new.

Yeah.

Even though I already know the material and I know what's coming.

And you're a lot of the material, but you're also so good. Who said both?

It was me.

No, but we're at a different place.

You know what I mean?

And so it seems like every time that you go through it, you're at this level of healing, and it's just still so good and so refreshing.

Yeah.

Because. And life changes. Right. Like, there's always maybe something that can happen or you need to have people that know this kind of stuff that you can work through it with.

I think it was, like, the first I went through for the betrayal trauma, and then I went through the group for myself, for my own love, sex, and relationship issues. It went back to betrayal, and it was more working through anger because I had teenagers Maddie's age. And then, you know, and then I went through and unraveled again, led that, and now I'm back in betrayal and beyond. And currently, it's helped me through this last year of all the trauma and stress I've had. And so it's been helping me address my living and speeding up, living in a life where trauma comes at you whether you want it or not, you know, and then also just trying to reduce stress. And so each year has had. It's been that onion, you know? Yeah. And then I'll be like, I don't want to do a group anymore. And then four minutes, four months later, I'm like, eating all the tacos and ice cream and watching all the Netflix shows. I'm like, maybe you should be here. Okay. Well, Michelle, we obviously love having you here so much. We're so glad you took part of the day off to be with us, even, and came and, you know, shared your perspective. And I'm sure it was really encouraging for people. I'm sure there's a. A pastor's wife out there listening or judge's wife or somebody else who has some awesome husband in a public job.

I'm not alone. She can do it.

I can do it.

You're not alone. Yeah.

So thank you.

You're welcome.

Okay. Wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin your journey today. If you like this episode or you're a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. And make sure to check out the full podcast on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.