309 - Confidentiality & Mandatory Reporting

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Good morning, afternoon, or really anytime you're listening. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 309 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Now let's get out there and melt some faces.

Oh, gosh, such aggression. I got nothing. It's probably because I'm sick. Which you'll hear me talk a little bit at the top of the episode, too.

Jack Black, melt some.

Oh, yeah, School of Rock.

School of Rock, Yeah.

It's an amazing movie.

Yeah. I haven't seen that in a long time. That actually came from a listener, that recommendation of an intro. Yeah. A listener who was very. Just grateful for the podcast from the great state of Utah, by the way. We do have listeners there and had that suggestion. I was like, no, I've never used that. That's. That. That's a fun one.

So there are so many good lines. What's your name? Freddie Jones. Freddie Jones. Shut up. There's that one. You take it. You just tip it to the side and cello. You have a bass. That movie. We need to watch that again, is what. Everyone needs to watch that again.

Isn't Jack Black just like the perfect act or two for a substitute teacher? Couldn't you just see him? I think everyone would love a substitute teacher like that.

Though I would say also, which is very interesting. This maybe just shows how much range he has when his character in Jumanji, it's actually a teenage girl that her character in Jumanji is Jack Black. He also plays a really good teenage girl. So anyways, tons of range for that guy. Anyways, okay, so tie it in. Cause we had Rich Moore, who's our associate groups director on, and we talked about. Not necessarily a fun topic. So I'm interested to see how you tie Jack Black into that. But we talked about confidentiality and mandatory reporting. Yeah.

In that movie, from what I recall of it, Jack Black took on a class of kids that didn't think they fit, didn't think they had much skill, were afraid of performing, and taught them to do rock and roll and have fun with it and become confident. And take a group of people that I think were driven by a lot of fear and instead realize we can face those fears and good can come of it. Maybe in ways we didn't expect, because I don't think any of the kids in the classroom were planning to become rock musicians, but they all Fell in love with it. So that's this area. I think it can have just. It's messy, it's fearful, we're not sure what to do. And we may allow that to keep us from taking steps as a leader. And I hope today creates some avenues of, oh, we can lead with confidence. And when or if these issues come up, we know some steps to take that aren't that frightening, that aren't that difficult, but can get things moving the right direction for the group or the person who needs to deal with something.

And.

And it can really help the whole group, I think, approach messy areas with a lot more confidence. So that was the tie in to the School of Rock.

Yeah, well, and it's interesting too, because this is one dynamic of group, specifically Pure Desire groups, that is really difficult, intense, and can be. There can be this cloud, kind of a mystery of, like, how to handle it. And honestly, that's one of the primary reasons we created our group leader training course. And this course is. It has, I think it's like five and a half hours of content. And one of the things it does cover is the legal pieces of group that you can run into. But this is just a good place to remind people that that's out there. And so, Nick, what encouragement would you have for people to pick up their copy of the group leader training and go through it?

Yeah, it's just one of the many, many areas that is covered on group leader training because we've tried to think through soup to nuts, what are all the things you need to know to lead group well and that maybe you've never faced, but leaders at Pure Desire, or in our experience have faced quite often, and we have some guidance and direction, everything from how to start groups well, how to promote them at your church, how to maybe interact with a pastor around them, how to end group well, what to do with difficult group members and what to do with legal situations. Because as we say repeatedly in that series and in today's episodes, we don't want you to feel as the leader, like you have to be the expert, but we do want you to feel like you have some expertise on your side that you can learn from. And when those situations come up, you know what to do and can create confidence. Confidence for you as a leader. So we highly recommend it. When it first came out, we had leaders who've. They've done Pure desire groups for years who watched through it and they said, this was way better than I thought it was going to be. And I learned a lot of things I thought I'd been leading group well or the right way, but I learned things that I'm doing that may have actually been hindering my group. And so even if you think, oh, I know how to do groups, it's just, you know, open the book, lead a discussion. I'm sure you're great at that. But there may be a lot of other pieces of the group experience that you haven't thought about that could actually add even more value to your group and the experience the group members have. So I think it's easy to watch. We do a good job with it if I can brag on us. So it's not laborious. It's like, I think you're gonna learn and have fun and then at the end feel like I'm even more confident about leading a group. And that's the goal.

Yeah.

And each of them, what's great too is they're not like 45 minute, 50 minute sessions. They're broken up into five to seven minute modules. So it really is bite sized as you work through it. So if you want to get access to the group leader training, just go to PureDesire.org all right. With that, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media. And then with that, here's our conversation with Rich Moore on confidentiality and mandatory reporting in group. Rich Moore, welcome back, my friend, to the podcast. Glad you're here.

Thanks for having me.

And we'll talk about it. You know, we talked about it at the top, but there's a reason why I'm sitting over here and you're not over here. Just want to make it really clear I'm not plugging my nose when I'm talking. This is just what I sound like.

We have like a screen. We could put here, a Covid barrier.

I don't have Covid, everybody. As I sit here, I do have.

A few masks in my backpack. Did you want to borrow one anyways? No, we're good.

Okay. So I'm glad that we're light hearted on the front because what we're going to talk about is not super light hearted. But today's topic is probably, in my opinion, one of the least exciting pieces of Pure Desire groups. And it's funny because you happen to be sort of an expert in this area, Rich, just from your experience leading groups and it's really important to be aware of the reality of this tension between confidentiality and mandatory reporting. And so having the right information for when these situations arise is really important. And so with your experience and your knowledge of the legal system and even some of your own story being a part of that too, we're looking forward to your insight. So the first question really is just this. Are Pure Desire group leaders mandatory reporters? And if so, why is this?

Yes. Short answer. Yes, we are mandatory reporters, and a couple of reasons why. One, we are protecting our group, also protecting that individual, and then just protecting Pure Desire as a whole. But under that, there's the layers of why we report, you know, and then that's determined by what's reportable, the time frame. There's so many different layers on. You know, we get those questions all the time. Is this reportable? Why should we report this? And usually what I'll say with that is, even if we're not sure, there's a little bit of a gray area of why we report. So something we may think, yeah, that's totally reportable. It's better just to reach out and get some information, ask and ask. And you can call anonymously and say, hey, I have this situation. I'm leading a group for Peer Desire, which we've had leaders do. Is this reportable? And they will say yes or no. And then once we report, basically the legal ramifications, whatever, are kind of off of us. And then now a report's been made. So that's why we do that up front.

Yeah. There are only two categories of people that I'm aware of that would be excluded from being mandatory reporters. And there might be more. Rich could add to this. But yeah, there's the lawyer client relationship, where you can share anything with your lawyer and they don't have to report because they're your lawyer and they can advise you what to do. Or what's called clergy penitent relationship, which was established with the idea that people could go and confess to their priest or rabbi or pastor and do that in a confidential way. But even lately, I've seen some lawsuits where clergy penitent relationships are being challenged because clergy did not respond to issues that regarded safety even in their community or church, and should have taken some action. And so I think that's the reminder is like, unless your group leader happens to be a lawyer or a pastor, they are just a person that's in this journey with you and particularly your group as well. Because a lot of the sharing we're going to talk about in this episode comes up in that group scenario where all your group members are not going to be pastors or lawyers. That could be under that client Privilege. So you're really creating a scenario when those things are brought up that are reportable, that it's just the right thing for everybody's protection and honestly, most of all, for the person involved to take the proper steps so that they're not left in a place where things get worse for them. Because I think that's the nature of most reportable offenses. Keeping it quiet and silent is not going to make things better. It's, in the long run, only going to hurt either the perpetrator themselves. It's not dealing with what they need to, or other people that are perhaps vulnerable. So, yeah, we just want to recognize there are a couple of specific places where things can be shared, where there's not that requirement. But really, outside of those two unique situations, we're all, in a way, mandatory reporters. And so it's good to keep in mind that in this episode, we're not talking about some heavy burden that a group leader has, that it's a reality. This is the kind of role any of us would have if we became aware of information of that nature.

Yeah, well, and I think too, just in you talked about the clergy or the pastor roles, is there's that protection for the clergy. That act is like, so in the child welfare.gov, which is I have information here. And you can go to the website. On one page it'll say that these people are protected from reporting, just like you mentioned, the pastor, that kind of lawyer stuff. But on the next page, there's a lot, oftentimes a gray area. It'll say they're protected. But on the very next part, it says these are mandatory reporters. So they're protected on one hand, but then they need a report. So it's the best thing to do in that situation is just get familiar with your local and state laws.

That's the thing. I remember when I was hired as a youth pastor that they told me I was a mandatory reporter. And so even though I was that pastoral oversight, that was something when I was dealing with these students who are underage, like, this is something that's essential for me to do. So either way, just doing the research to know what's what.

Yeah. And so as we look into this issue, Rich, why is being aware of this, why is mandatory reporting such an important issue?

Well, I always go to just the first one. It's the protection of children and families. So we often think that reporting somebody has to do with child sexual abuse or whatever, but it's a whole. I mean, there's a whole other piece of that layers to that. You know, when someone's talk about self harm, inflicting harm on other, it doesn't have to be sexual abuse. It could be just a multitude of things. So when it comes down to it, so you want to make sure that if there's ongoing or even stuff that was in the past, that we report that because that stuff needs to be brought out too. Because there could be some ramifications for that. And it's important because we're protecting. We don't want it to happen again. And then I'll get into it a little bit more just with like my story story. But as we go through this. But yeah, I think for true healing, this is just such a huge part for people to say, hey, this is a consequence. But yeah, when it comes down to it, we just have a job to do in one of the. And it's the tough part to do because we just had one, a couple of them last week. In the last couple weeks. Yeah, we need to protect those. And oftentimes it's protecting the child, but we're really protecting the spouse as well.

Yeah, well.

And honestly, the community. I mean, if you think about, you know, like there have been times when I was on staff at a church where we knew someone had a criminal record and there was specific stuff like when it came to can they be around children, can they be in certain situations? And so having those kind of conversations and knowing what is a reporting issue and knowing the information you need to have on mandatory reporting protects your entire community. It's not just because, I mean, the kids are obviously very, very important, especially the families and the spouses for sure, but also just this is something that if you're aware of the right information, this is going to help your church, whether it's in a pure desire group or not. This is the kind of thing that helps you protect your community.

Yeah, yeah. And I think there is a mindset shift we have to go through there because some, I think, fear, well, I don't want to get that person in trouble or it was a long time ago and they've changed. And that's not really our role to determine those things. Our role is to help them and to protect our community. And so the mindset shifted to say, how do we make sure that the community is safe and that the way this group is structured is safe for others in the future. And if we get into any situation where we're protecting someone by helping protect their secrets, that wouldn't be a good situation, even if it wasn't a reporting issue that I'm helping you keep secrets to protect you. It's like as we've seen, that is often part of someone's healing journey. And even if they say oh well, you know, I would never do that again. Well, as we all know, when we're stuck in these kind of behaviors or have this history, there's also a level of denial, rationalization, minimization. And of course we're going to say, oh, I would never do that again because we all believe that about all of our negative behaviors. And so even if someone is saying oh, it's not something I would ever do again, it's like, well, the reality is it's part of your story and if you haven't faced it, you're going to need to. And now that I have this information, I'm going to have to make sure you face it or I'll have to do something because of just all the other ramifications of it. So I think when we change the way we think about it, we can see that oh, this is just a way of being responsible to keep people safe and not am I ratting someone out for their past behaviors?

Yeah, because it can actually come back on the leader or the church. If a leader doesn't make a report and it's a reportable issue and then something happens and then the individual says, well I told my group leader and then now the group leader can be held accountable for not reporting, the lawsuit can come back to the church or what. You know, we've seen that happen.

I think another piece too on that and I was just thinking, Nick, as you were saying, that the areas where there's secrecy in our life there tends to be tons and tons of shame. And that is the perfect place for brokenness to live and to grow. And so even just at a practical level we know that from the addiction to pornography and the impacts that can have on us. And so even more so when it comes to something like this, that maybe it is a one time situation, but the secrecy is definitely not a healthy spot for that person to keep that piece of their story. As group leaders, and this is more of the practical stuff, like what are we required to report report on like is it just child sex abuse or what else should we be reporting on as mandatory reporters?

Yeah, that's, that's usually the one we hear the most of that. But I, and that would include like I said earlier, like the threat of self harm. So like suicidal ideations and usually if there's, if they Start talking about suicide and stuff. There's a few questions we ask to see, you know, and if they usually answer, there's like three or four questions. And if they're yes to that, it's like, don't let them leave gru.

Yeah.

Dealing with it right there. So the sexual abuse, the threat of self harm, past sexual abuse, and in any, really, any criminal type stuff like, even, even legal activity like rape is a big one. Stuff like that, where it's just. There's a, there's, there's no the gray areas. Right.

Let me ask another kind of question off of that. Is it just the individual who's admitting to these acts that they have done, or do you also. Is there mandatory reporting when someone says, I was sexually abused by this person or there was illegal activity that was done toward me, is that also something that we have to report?

No, you don't have to report that one because it's really, what, third hand or secondhand at that point? Because we don't know who that individual is. It could be just say, I was abused and then they never give you a name, so we don't know all the details. That is very common in almost every group I've done that has just been a common thread of sexual abuse.

Yeah.

And that's usually what leads to guys struggling. So, yeah, that's not something we would report.

Yeah. When I've thought of mandatory reporting, both as a pastor and out pure desire, I'm always thinking about vulnerable populations who are people that are not able to report themselves. And that's why I'm the mandatory reporter, because of things that are told to me about something with children, with a handicapped population or the elderly who may not be able to report themselves. So what you brought up, like, if someone's saying, I was abused as a child, if they're an adult, they have the ability to call any police officer, walk into any lawyer's office. Like they can take the steps necessary to deal with what happened to them to make someone accountable. But it's more those situations where we realize the person being impacted does not potentially have the ability to speak for themselves. And back to what Rich said earlier, I think the main thing, because for pastors, for group leaders, this can be. It's a scary area. And it feels like, oh, my goodness, now I have to have a minor in law and reporting issues, like we say all the time, you don't have to be the expert. When in doubt, call a legal expert, call a lawyer. And most lawyers I know will not call if or will not charge you to have a five minute phone call from a pastor who just says, hey, here's an issue that came up. Is this a reportable thing? And I'm guessing Rich could also give us phone numbers that you could just call within your state. That isn't even a lawyer, it's just, hey, here's the state agency, the child protection services that you can call and say, here's something that I've heard. Is this reportable? What should we do with it? Because we don't want every group leader in church to feel like we have to have a law degree to run groups. That's not at all where we're at. But when in doubt, it's good to know who do I go to?

Yeah.

And another link that we've talked about, we talk about in our group leader training as well as churchlawandtax.com and we'll put that in the show notes too because that's from my understanding that's where you go to see in your state what is the requirement for mandatory reporting. Because it is different. Yeah. And the reducing the risk policy, which. Let's just. Can we talk about that right now? I know we may get into it a little bit later, but what is a reducing the risk policy and why do churches need something like that?

Yeah, it's basically just something that they have in place where literally reducing the risk. So if you have a children's ministry, you gotta have something in place that is gonna protect the kids. And so a lot of that, which is really strange that I hear this often, especially with smaller churches, like they're volunteers that work with the kids and all this stuff, they have no risk policy in place and they're offering groups. So if a church is offering specifically these types of groups and they have men and women who are struggling, this is just, it's kind of one of those no brainer things. You just have to have some kind of policy in place that's going to protect the church, where they're doing background checks on their leaders. The leaders are trained to know what to do if these topics come up and then who they report to, like the pastoral oversight. And I can't. I was going to look up the website, but there's another website you can go to along with that website.

But yeah, just googling even that reducing the risk policy.

You can find stuff and other things that go into a reducing the risk policy can be like the rule of two that you always have two adults in a room so that there's never a one on one situation that you have regulations around who can pick up the child and sign them in and out so that you don't allow a child to go home with a family member relative that they should not be with because you don't always know. So things like that. And if you don't know what your church's policy is, even if you're leading groups and think, oh, we don't have anything to do with children, if you're in the building, you probably need to know if the policy exists and what it is. And if you're a leader or a church member that says, I don't think our church has a policy, you just need to check with the company that provides your insurance because I can almost guarantee you they have recommendations or a plan that you can follow. I mean, I know the largest insurer of churches in our country is Brotherhood Mutual. And Brotherhood Mutual, like when I was a pastor, I don't know if it was required, but if you had in writing, you're reducing the risk policy, you got a lower rate on your insurance and they had the whole policy for you. Like all you had to do is basically fill in your church name, approve it at a board meeting, and you had a policy and had to agree to follow it. But they provided all of the work for you because they were the experts. And I know at this point, like Brotherhood Mutual and others, they have videos, they have seminars, they have all kinds of things you can do to train your leaders and those that work with kids. So it's not an area you have to run away from because others have done the hard work. You just have to kind of agree, what's the policy we're going to follow?

And from what I understand, it's something that sets all that stuff up in case something happens. But then also that does create legal covering for the church if some illegal activity happens, correct? Yeah. So it is important on both ends of that.

And I would just add, you know, you may get pushback from church leaders who are like, oh, why do we need that? This is never going to happen. It never has happened. And I would always say to my team, like, as we were implementing some of this years ago, I said the reason we're doing all this is because one time would be too many. To have one occurrence and not be prepared for it would be too many. And so we're doing all this so that 20 years from now this same board can say, we've never had a problem, it's never happened because we've Put the right pieces in place. So don't. If you get that kind of pushback, I think that's a good response to it. So, Rich, what, you know, as we talk about mandatory reporting, what does a group leader do to help create safety in the group? Because this can feel messy. It can feel like, oh, you know, anything I share, Rich might turn and call the lawyer on me. So how do we create that feeling or that environment of safety and conversation, confidentiality, even while being aware of possible mandatory reporting issues?

Yeah. Big thing is literally the start of group walking through the introduction, going through the memo of understanding the covenant to contend. Just walking through that and explaining why we're mandatory reporters and what that looks like and when we can break confidentiality and walking them through that. I'll always start group by sharing my story. Obviously my story is a little different than most people, but I'll share my story and then I will always tell them in that first meeting, if there's something in your story that you're going to share that's along the line of my story, don't share it today. If you want to share it, then contact me outside of group. So that's one way you can keep the group safe.

Because let's so unpack that a little bit. Because if a group member discloses some illegal activity that they have done in the past, whether it's abuse or self harm or anything like that, if it goes to court, then your entire entire group could get subpoenaed to then be witnesses of what happened. Correct?

Correct.

Which can just create legal complications and it, it creates a lack of safety in the group then at that point too.

And that's why I always, I'll try to encourage them to talk to me outside a group. And almost anytime that I've had a group member in that situation, that's always happened outside of, I've never had anybody in a group that I've led just drop the bomb. Yeah, drop a bomb. Because I let them know up front.

Yeah.

And I tell them the, the benefits. It sounds funny, but the benefits of disclosing this because they're so worried about getting in trouble, but then true healing can start taking place at that point.

Yeah, it's good.

But just like you said, if it's people drop a bomb in group, then all of a sudden the group becomes a potential, you know, first subpoena down the road. So.

Yeah.

Well, I just want to underscore what you said, Rich, about the memo of understanding. It's why we encourage that no one should do group until they've signed that. Because the memo covers it and says, hey, there are limits to confidentiality. And it even lists out here are a few things that if I share, my group and my leader are mandatory reporters, and they will have to take that to authorities. And then I do just what you do. I say, hey, if that's part of your story, which it might be, because in our sexual brokenness, sin and fallenness can take us to all kinds of evil behaviors. That doesn't mean that's who we are. But if that's part of our story, that may be part of what we have to deal with. And I want to encourage you to do that. But doing that in group is not the right place. And I'll bring back that reminder. Like before certain lessons, like when we're going to do the one on secrets, doing the one on our 10 worst moments, doing some of those lessons that, you know, okay, this could delve into someone's past issues. I'll just say, hey, just a reminder, if you've done anything as an adult towards minors, towards handicapped, towards elderly, the group is not the place to share that part. And I remind them why. And everyone knows. And so it doesn't come up in group. The question I do get a lot from group members is like, you know, when we're talking about 10 worst moments, and some of that they'll say, well, what if it happened to me as a child? And you can remind them like, well, no, even if it's something you did to another child, as a child, you were both minors. And so it's not a mandatory reporting situation, as far as I understand. Now, Rich can speak more on that too, because if you start to get into older teenage years towards younger children, there are some sticky issues there. But what I get more commonly is, you know, things that happen between two teenage kids in a dating relationship or the stories we hear of, you know, we were both kids and it was child exploration kind of stuff. Do I have to report that? It's like, no, those aren't reportable situations. That's when you're talking about two minors. So that's a different scenario. Yeah.

And to your point too, Rich, making sure that, you know, in your state, what is mandatory report, you know, what you need to report on for sure. I really dislike what you said, Rich, that the idea of you're just setting the tone early and we'll get into how this can impact the group a little bit later. But I just think that that's important, that this isn't something. It's interesting. If you don't talk about it at the front of group and really go through the memo of understanding and make sure guys are clear on this. Guys or gals going through group are not clear on this, then when you get to that point and something comes up, it's just going to be. It's going to be an absolute mess. So this is protecting you and the group. And so that's why prioritizing up front is really important.

And I just reiterate the importance of going through the introduction and going through that. We still have group leaders and churches that just go right to pillar one, lesson one, right? So they don't even look. So we have group members calling, so what's the mou? Because they hear about it like on the podcast and blah. They're like, what is this you're talking about? And I'm like, well, did you go through it in your group? They're like, no, they have no idea. It's very important that you do not skip those pieces in the introduction because of what we're talking about.

Hey, peeps. Trevor here.

So it's happening again. Our biggest event of the year, the Pure Desire Summit 2023, is coming this September and you won't want to miss it. And this year it's from the heart. You'll hear from amazing experts in the field of betrayal, trauma, addiction, recovery and relationships on a variety of topics that will ignite your heart for healing gain practical tools for cultivating deeper connections and experiences the hope of healing in a safe place. We have sessions from Dr. Barbara Steffens, Nate Larkin, Heather Cole, Nick Stumbo and myself. And on top of that, we have Dr. Adrian Hickman, Rodney and Tracy Wright, Ashley Jamison and many others teaching our breakouts. The Pure Desire Summit is a place where it's okay to not be okay. It's a place to understand ourselves better and God's desire to bring healing to the wounded parts of our hearts. At the summit, you'll hear from people who understand deep hurt and isolating and addiction. You'll hear from people who've walked the painful road of betrayal. You'll hear their honest stories and how they experienced and continue to experience hope and freedom. You are not alone. Join men and women on the same journey as you as we all take a courageous step toward deeper healing and recovery. Are you ready to do this together? Let's do it. Join us September 15 and 16, 2023 in the beautiful state of Oregon or from the comfort of your own living room. You can also gather family and friends and experience the event together by hosting a watch party. We are also offering multiple options for host site experiences near you want to bring your spouse, friend, or even a high schooler too. You can get a discount off two tickets for the in person or host site event. Discount automatically is deducted at checkout. So sign up for the Pure desire summit@puredesire.org summit.

Excited to see you there. So, and I'm guessing Rich, you've. I mean you even said over the last couple weeks we've had a couple situations like this, but what does the process of reporting look like? And are there any tips that you have on how to do this, I guess successfully? I don't. I mean it's not a fun thing or a good thing, but like you want to do it well in the right way. So what does that look like?

Yeah, first of all, if somebody is going to talk about what they've done, it's like if they've already kind of opened the can of worms a little bit. I'll try to get as much information as I can just to be able to fill in the gaps.

Hopefully not in a group. Group setting. Correct.

Not in a group setting. One on one.

Correct.

Correct. Right. One on one. Try to get as much information that I can so then I can make the judgment as like, yes, this is reportable. In fact, yeah, we do have to report this. And what I'll usually do, the very first thing I'll do is I'll say one, I just acknowledge the fact that, hey, I really appreciate you wanting to share this. I know it's hard. I said, but this is a huge step in your healing process. There may or may not be consequences. And sometimes the consequences are the things that we need to save their life. I mean, that's me. So I just encourage them in that process. The best thing they can do when, when they disclose something that is reportable is self report. It's so funny. It's like, what do you mean I gotta turn myself in? Yeah, usually sometimes the punishment, if there is one, is a little bit less than actually being somebody reporting you. You know, it varies, but self report, so we say, hey, I need to know that you've reported. You know, get back to me within 24 to 48 hours. If I don't hear anything, then I will contact you. And then, yeah, then the report will have to be made. Like I would report it or we've coached group leaders on how to do this. We actually just had one, a gal Report, I think a week ago or two weeks ago, and made a report. Come to find out it wasn't reportable, but she followed the steps needed, which was great.

So those steps are then just like. Do you call the police? Is that what you do? Kind of walk through even that practical step? What does that look like?

Yeah, so it's either or. So cps, like Nick said, Child Protective Services is one. Sometimes it's the local sheriff. A lot of times what will happen is you'll call the sheriff and they'll say, well, call the cps and then you call cps and then they'll say, no, call the sheriff for. So, yeah, so you kind of go back and forth, but usually one of them, you know you're gonna get one of them. And then once the report's made, once you make a report and make sure you get the case number and the date and who you talk to. And you just. You just have that down just in case something comes back and say, oh, it wasn't reported. No, I have the case number here. So you know what I would say with our online groups, there's literally. We've actually had this happen with online groups. There's two. Two ways it has to be reported. Since I'll just use my group I'm leading in Oregon and I have a guy in Texas, because I'm in Oregon, I have to make a report in Oregon, and then I also have to make a report in Texas. So as a leader, you have to make two reports. So the city you're in, because that's your. The leader's hometown, and this is where the information came in. And then. So then what happens is then they'll. They'll take a. You'll get a report number here. They'll contact the investigator in Texas and they'll just make. Get the notes and then kind of hand it over. It's just kind of a weird way that happens. But that's usually what the way to go if you're leading an online group. Yeah. And the other part that we do is, which I've done a lot, which is not fun. The individual just doesn't want to report. He wants to, but he's super scared.

And it's like, understandably so. Yeah.

I said, hey, I understand what you're going through, because, I mean, I literally can say that. And they'll say, I will do this with you. I said, how about we get on a phone call or. I've even gone locally here to make a report with individual locally and go with them just to support them. Sometimes they have a hard time even talking about reporting, but they're on the call or in person. So I'll kind of fill in the gaps that say, hey, here, this is what was. And then they'll acknowledge, yeah, this is what happened. So we, we can do that and support them in that role.

Okay.

It's hard. It's the hardest thing about doing what we do, leading groups. But it's like, I can't say enough about, I wouldn't be here if my brother didn't report me.

Yeah. And you've mentioned your story a number of times. Just so people know, I'll put your story of healing episode that we had in the podcast in the show notes.

Yeah. And I think a couple things to add to what Rich said. It's why we really recommend that if you are in a group or leading a group, that you be connected to a local church, even if that church isn't actively involved in your group, but they're supportive. That is an avenue of wisdom and direction. Because if I'm a group leader and I can go to a pastor, a staff member, and say, hey, something came up in group, what do you think we should do? It's always good to have that covering and to be able to connect it to a church that does have some pieces in place versus if you're just leading a group out of your home. I think there's some jeopardy here if we don't really have a covering. And if something goes sideways, I have no one else to appeal to for help other than my own credibility. And if you're a part of a Pure Desire online group in any of these situations, we'd want you to contact Rich or our team first and find out, hey, here's what came up. Here's what I think needs to happen. I'll always take that step, I think, very early on, just to give. Get someone above you involved if possible. And I also wanted to just underscore what Rich said. I think it's always a good move, especially when it's a clear case of this is a reportable issue, to put it in the hands of the person themselves and encourage them to deal with it. And depending on the severity of it, your recommendation to them might first be, say, you need to go get a lawyer and talk to them. And with your lawyer's help, you go to the police or whoever. Because in some stories, it's going to be messy. It's going to be potentially a big deal, and a lot of legal ramifications. You don't want a person walking alone into a place to report without kind of knowing their rights and what they should and shouldn't say, like get them to go to a lawyer. Don't do that for them. But yeah, then if they're not willing to that timeframe of saying, if you don't take some steps, then I will have to because I'm required to. The one case that I had in group, and maybe as an encouragement to some, is that in 11, 12 years of personally leading group group, I only had one situation come up. And in that situation, it was kind of a gray area. It was like, I don't know. And so I said to the guy who he acknowledged when he shared it that, hey, this might be something I need to report. What do you think? I said, let me make a call. And I had a lawyer who was a friend of our church and I just ran the scenario by them. I said, what do you think? And the lawyer said, I don't think it's reportable or that you're mandatory to, but it does sound like a situation that could come back on this guy. And so I would encourage him. He needs to go talk to his lawyer and figure out how to get out ahead of this. Because if it ever were to come up or come out, it'd be better if he dealt with it now than if he waited and then got caught by surprise. So that was really helpful that I could go to him and say, hey, I'm not required to report anything, but our lawyer recommended that you take these steps. And then I could in good conscience leave it in his court. And if he wanted to face it, great. And if he chose not to, I had done my part. And I think that's what we want to stress to leaders. You don't have to do this whole process. You just need to take your right steps, which may be one phone call and then you can say, I've done what I need to do now. It's either in that person's hands or in the law's hands. And what we have found in many of these stories where people are very scared or fearful, and I certainly am not saying this is always going to happen because there are definitely situations where things need to happen legally. But sometimes, I'll put it that way, sometimes what a person fears gets reported, conversations happen and the case gets dropped. There maybe are some reprimands or there's not always the outcome that people we tend to jump to. Worst case scenario is what I'm saying. And if we think there's actually a lot of other better outcomes that could happen here and that could release this person from the burden of guilt and fear they live under, man, wouldn't it be worth it for them? So I think keeping that in mind, that I might be helping them deal with something that's actually a big part of what's holding them back.

Yeah, I would add to that, too. I was just thinking as you're talking. I've had this, where we talk about seeking legal advice from an attorney is like, I've had a guy literally legit reporting issue. He goes and he talks to his attorney and his attorney says, don't report. You know, because that's that client privilege thing where he didn't necessarily have to report. And he comes back and he goes, rich. He goes, I just, I don't want to hide this anymore. And I said, well, I said, you. I said, just because your attorney told you that, I said, if you want to go through this process and accept the responsibility, then you can self report. And he did. And it was actually one. Even though it was kind of a legitimate reporting, they basically just. There was very minimalist consequences for him. I mean, I think he got, you know, he had a register, but he didn't do any jail time or anything like that. It was pretty, pretty, pretty minimal. But he just followed through with their recommendation and he just, he did. He just finally felt like, I'm not hiding anything. Because he felt like with his attorney, it was like, well, I'm still have this. And.

Yeah, can I ask one more question? I just was thinking, as people are listening, if, like, let's say we're in a betrayal and beyond granted and there's a wife and she discloses abuse that's happening to her, is that BNB group leader a mandatory reporter for that? I mean, I know we talked about that, that the wife has agency in that the spouse has agency, but is that still something that a group leader should talk to somebody else about?

So if so again. So if the lady in a BNB group, her husband is abusing her.

Yes, she is receiving.

And that leader is a guy.

I just want to make sure that it's not just something that's in recovery groups for our groups for betrayed partners.

No, because that's firsthand. That's coming from the victim saying, my husband is abusing me. We've had that happen a few times.

Good to know.

Yeah. I mean, that's one of those you definitely want to check on because again, it may be in your State or the way the law reads that if the person themselves has said no, I don't want to report it, but they are safe to, then you're not obligated to force something they don't want to. Now there are definitely situations too where a spouse is like, he can't say anything or it's going to get worse and they're living in fear. Well, that's a different situation. Another scenario, I think that comes up in a lot of groups, Rich, because people are struggling with watching content online and what's online and available is more and more broad and diverse and evil. And there is a lot of illegal pornography out there of underage of children. So I've had group members ask if I have viewed or they'll say I accidentally saw or maybe intentionally. But if someone is viewed like child porn, do they need to report? Is that reportable? How does that situation work?

Yeah, I literally had this conversation yesterday with the wife who is very.

So glad you do your job.

And I do.

I'm just going to say, no, don't, don't. I'm sick, I'm under the weather. Don't do it.

Yeah, unfortunately, this, this is, I would say this is one of the bigger reporting issues that I've come across in the last year or so. So much more child porn use. I mean, we know it's out there. It's just, it's everywhere. Right. So short answer. Yes. When, when I look in his book. Child porn is reportable.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of gray areas in there. So again, this is that one where it's like you refer out to, you know, call cps, call the sheriff, say, hey, I have this situation. You're watching child porn. Porn. Here's an example. We actually literally made a report. We called and said, the sheriff said, yes, child porn is a reportable offense. We called cps. CPS said, no, it's not a reportable offense. So in the same city, in this.

Interesting.

So it's really, you just have to really do your homework a little bit. And again, this is one where child porn, I just say child porn across the board, it's reportable. For us as a PD group leader, we're just going to say, hey, this needs to be reported.

That's our standard.

And then if they decide to do anything on the legal side with that, then we've done our part of creating that safe spot. When in doubt, reach out. It's just, it's so hard when you have, have an agency tell you that it's not reportable. And, you know, we're trying to follow what we know to be true just in our group guidelines as a leader reaching out and saying, hey, this is. So it's very difficult when you have agencies that aren't on the same page, but we're following a guideline and that just protects our group leaders and the individual.

Well, as I think listeners are well aware, this is a messy issue. Even in just what you just said, it's not always easy. It can be confusing. So it's an area that can cause group members some hesitation and maybe sharing their story because they're like, oh my gosh, what if it's a gray area? Or I don't know. So how do we handle this situation if a group member has legal issues or potential legal issues as part of their story? And what can the group member do?

Yeah, I think once if a report is made, this comes up. This is a great question. If a report, if I have to report somebody at that point, I'll say, hey, you can stay in group, but just don't say anything else about that incident situation. Yeah, if charges are brought up, then we'll have to bring them, have them step out of group. So if they're, if it becomes a pending legal investigation, then at that point we would have them step out of group. And again, that is. Is really making the group, you know, setting that tone early about keeping the group safe and handling that. So a lot of times we get guys that come into group that will sign a memo of understanding. They'll start group and then find out we're into pillar one, two or three. Then it's like, oh, hey, I am under investigation. It's like, you know, because we even asked that question, I believe on the registration specifically for online groups, if there's any pending. And I know a lot of churches will ask that on their intent, whether It's Sexual Integrity 101 Conqueror series. They'll ask because we tell them to get that information up front. But I do think it's really important for me. I just have a heart for those guys because that's my story. And I would hate for anybody to look at a guy who wants to come forward and not just love them where they're at at and care for them because they're, they're at the point now where it's like, I need to tell somebody. And that's an important part. Place to get to. And if, if we drop the ball at that point, they may never, they may never tell anybody. Ever again. They may reoffend, they may do whatever, because that was the one opportunity to get them to the point where, you know, they can jump into recovery.

And I think that's been my encouragement to again acknowledge in some of these maybe challenging parts of a workbook to say, hey, I get that for some or maybe one of you in our group, there may be legal issues that are a part of your story and we just want you to know we love you and we care about you, but we want this to be safe for everybody and not create a reporting situation. So we want to help you take that to the right place. Either your lawyer or your therapist or your pastor who will be more equipped to know how to direct you for the purpose of the group, I'll encourage them. There are a lot of ways we can share those parts of our stories without getting specific and making it a reporting situation. Because, you know, for example, someone could say, you know, I was in an inappropriate relationship and the group doesn't need to know. I mean, if that was when I was a certain age and they were maybe underage, like in the group situation, they don't need to know that for you to get the benefit of sharing, I was in an inappropriate relationship and here's what was happening or here's why, or here's what I learned, or here's what changed. Or for someone to say, you know, I was looking at things online that I shouldn't have been and if you're not sure, you should share in most groups anyway, even sharing what kind of material you were looking at would be triggering anyway, that's not what we do. So those specifics, just to say, hey, if it is something we want to help you deal with it, as Rich has talked about, it's going to help you, I think, actually own your story and find freedom them. But in the group, that's not the place to share those specifics. So if you need to, just leave that piece out. And I've just found even in a couple of situations where someone did have some legal concerns, they got tremendous benefit from group without having to share some of the particulars of their situation.

Yeah, I love how just when we talk about, we look at the roots and not the fruits. Right. I mean, that's an often thing that we talk about. And I've said it, I think, in podcasts before. It's like, it's like, I don't necessarily, I don't wanna say care, but necessarily care of, like how they're acting out. Unless there's a Reportable issue. It's like, what's that driving force behind why you chose to do what you're doing? So I think when we can get to that point where we're sharing with those guys that piece, it's like, why did you go there? What happened in your life that made you feel like that you have to go around this way? Yeah.

I think it's just clear from our conversation that you need to tell somebody. That doesn't necessarily have to be in your group, but that is a part of your healing. And people who have had illegal activity or have been abusers, like a group is what they need. I mean, they need to figure out what is going on underneath, to your point. So definitely, Rich, this is a really heavy and difficult topic in general, which has a lot of perceived negative outcomes. Right. Like, there's that fear, but at the same time, there can be positive outcomes from this. And so just in your experience, I know your story, but also as leading groups, what are the positive outcomes of mandatory reporting situations?

Yeah, I think there's just a load of positive outcomes. It may. Now for the individual. Don't give me. I want to make sure you hear this right. Is like, it's scary.

Sure.

And society, when you look at it that way, there's all these negative outcomes. But as an individual, I think it's important that we remember. It's like I just, for the first time in my life, shared what I did. That's a positive. You basically just. You're breaking that piece of isolation. And for some guys, that's prison. Some guys is probation. I mean, whatever they decide, the consequences are. I have had a lot of conversations where guys have gone away and are in prison for probably the rest of their lives where they. My thing to them is, don't look at this as the end all, be all I said. But just because you're locked up for 10, 20, 30, whatever years doesn't mean you can't find freedom from unwanted sexual.

Behavior or help other people.

And then help. I mean, what an opportunity to go get some help and then work with other guys in the prison. Or you're on probation, you get connected with a church, and then now your story, because you made the choice to come forward. Now you're helping other guys in the same situation. So I think there's just. There's more positives to that than there are negatives. Now, the other side of that, the crappy part is there's a child that was hurt, or there was a woman that was hurt, or a family that's hurt. So there's those natural consequences that are not good, and we offer a lot of support for them. So there's those pieces, and that's the hard part. It's like. Like I'm helping a guy for the first time and he's finally able to share, and he's accepting his consequences, which is great because he's owning it. But at the same time, we have a destroyed family on the other side. So it's like, how do we help both sides? Because I don't want to come across as like, oh, hey, hurrah for the guy. But we need to make sure we help the family side, too.

Yeah. When I think of the positive outcomes that can happen here, I think it's dealing with a situation at the lowest possible level. Like, if it hasn't been dealt with up until now, now is the best time to deal with it. Because in all likelihood, it will only get worse. You know, I've talked about that. Anything that's buried, unless it's a seed, everything else that's buried rots and gets worse, not better. And your secret or the stuff in your past is not a seed that's going to grow into new life. I mean, maybe one day if it's redeemed, but if it's a secret, it's going to rot and just cause more death. And so in dealing with mandatory reporting issues, we may actually be giving someone grace of, let's help you now before it goes to another level. Because even when we're saying, well, I, I would never do that. Well, in all likelihood, the thing we've already done at one time, we said, I would never do that. And if we don't deal with it, the likelihood that it will become something else is very strong. Because as we've all seen in our stories and in everyone's story, this is a progressive behavior. This doesn't just leave us alone and say, oh, you're good there forever. You never have to go beyond it. Unless we're really getting help and making changes, it will continue to take us further and deeper into worse places. So I think as a group leader, if we can see that, like, wow, I may actually be sparing someone from something worse down the road by dealing and sparing other people by dealing with it now. So just keeping that perspective is believing God can redeem really, really tough stories. And I'd rather have that redemption start now and not prolong it another five or ten years or whatever. And yes, God could still redeem it then, but it'll probably be an even more difficult process. So let's try to bring that redemption in now and give God the opportunity to start doing his work in an area that really has probably been a playground for Satan to create shame and fear and pain and all the stuff that comes with that. So let's let the light in. And light is hard at first because it can be very jarring and make us squint. But if we get used to the light light and it expels the darkness, that's going to be good in the long run for everyone.

Yeah, that's good. So if you're a group leader and you're listening, just some things to wrap up. You don't need to be an expert in the legal stuff. When in doubt, reach out. I like that Rich, that what you said and then making sure that we're covering this up front when groups are starting. And if you're a pastor or church leader, you need to have a reducing the risk policy. You need to know what the legal requirements are for your state when it comes to this. And you know, as we finish here, like if this is your story, if you have illegal activity or something in your past is something that needs to be reported, just understand that God cares about you and your story and your healing and that there is to Rich, to your point, a lot of positive that can come from it. So Rich, I know this is not necessarily a fun topic for you too and you've mentioned how it's a part of your story, but we just appreciate you the work that you've done personally in your own healing and then the impact of now having with other guys. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, no problem man.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode up on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.