310 - Stories From The Church: Petra Church

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello.

Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 310 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Here's the church, here's the steeple, open the doors, see all the people.

You know what's funny is that like, I totally remember that doing that.

I don't remember the hand motions.

I don't know the way that you did it, the way that you said it though, it just was so creepy. So creepy. So I just, I like, that's cool. But next time you do it, just.

Yeah, you kind of look like trying to mimic like the voice of the 65 year old Sunday school teacher. You know, the grandma who's been down there for 40 years and she's teaching little kids this. I don't know what you would call that, like a Sunday school nursery rhyme. Totally is where I learned for sure. I don't even know why. But as a little kid in preschool or Sunday school, we would say that little rhyme and I honestly have no idea why I look back. It's like, what were they trying to, I don't know with that little rhyme.

You just, the way you looked at me and the way that you did that and said it, you looked like Hannibal Lecter.

Like, I just felt like, wow, there's.

A little bit of.

That is not what I was going for. Okay, well, it is not from Silence of the Lamb.

It's not.

You're right.

That I know.

Nope, it's not. Okay, just let's transition here. Today we started a new series of episodes that we're calling Stories from the Church. And we had some church staff on with us from Petra Church in Pennsylvania. And it was Ken and Marcy and Matt and they came on really to just share what is going well in their experience at Petra Church, running Pure desire groups and integrating this into their church and community.

Yeah, it's kind of like some of the other series we've done like Frequently asked questions and Mythbusters and stories of healing of individuals and couples that over the next months and even years, if God so wills, we'll continue to put out these stories along this line. But we just wanted to celebrate places where the culture of sexual integrity and recovery groups and pure desire resources and materials really has taken hold, that it's been more than just a leader here, a leader there, that, that it's become a part of the church system and Their way of helping people. Because that's really our vision. We don't want it to just be a once in a while thing. We believe that everyone in the church needs some level of discipleship in the area of their sexuality. And so how could we establish this as one of the rhythms and routines that churches engage in? And as you're gonna hear in the episode Petra Does It. Well, I remember early on when I came onto the staff of Pure Desire. I heard about this Petra church and I'm like, Petra? You mean like the 1980s Christian rock band and where'd they get the name?

That should have been your intro, by the way, is some Petra lyrics.

Didn't I recently do Beyond Belief or. Oh, I don't know, I thought I did anyway. Yes, that's. Is that Petra come on. All that to say, like seven years ago when I came on staff, I was already hearing other staff members talk about events that had been at Petra. Just the way they were using the resources and it's a testimony to their, their vision. And I think a few of those on the call today, Ken, Pastor Ken in particular, but also Matt and Marcy with him, that, that they've just had this long view of, we're going to keep integrating this into our church and it's not just kind of this one time hot button issue and then we move on. It's like we know people are always going to need healing in this area and we're going to have a plan to provide it. And I think whether you are a church leader or member or just someone in a group, that this is an encouragement to kind of see the bigger picture of how we integrate these into a church community and the impact it can have. So I know you and I were encouraged and I think listeners will be as well.

Absolutely. You know, and one of the things too that we discussed in the episode is that Petra last year did it for the first time and then again this year they're going to be a host site for our Pure Desire Summit September 15 and 16. And this is our annual event that we hope men and women go through, come to, who've gone through groups, have been through counseling, are in the recovery and healing process. And Nick, just why should people attend? What benefit would they get? And then tell them maybe a little bit about this year's event.

Yeah, and I think I would say that with the question of why do we have host sites for the summit? You know, why not just have people watch it at home? And I think because we recognize the value and Other churches do that. There's something that happens when we're in the room together. And so we want to encourage people. Whether you're in a group, leading a group, have done group in the past, if you're anywhere in this recovery world, how can you gather with others that think the way you think, have some of the stories and understandings you've had that have some of that in common? Because there's. There's just power then in that connection, in the messages we hear, in the interactions we have. And it's multiplied, I think, when we're able to do it in person. And so we'd love to have you here with us in Portland. We'd love to have you check out the list of host sites and consider one of those. And then at the same time, we get that there's work and kids and flights and travel doesn't work for everybody. So you can gather and watch it in a home or a small group. But we just think this is that annual opportunity to kind of be reminded of why we do what we do, why our healing matters, and if we've maybe lost sight a little bit, you know, coming out of the summer months, that start of the fall is like a really good re. Engagement point to say my healing matters and the way God wants to use my healing to help other people matters, too. And the summit really becomes, I think, a key point to launch into next steps in our story and how God wants to use us to help others.

Yep. So the theme of this year's summit is from the heart. And we have Dr. Barbara Steffens is speaking, and Nate Larkin, a friend of the show, is also going to be speaking. And so it's going to be a great time. You can register for in person, online through a watch party, or at a host site. And to do that, you can just go to PureDesire.orgSummit with that, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. And leave us a review. It helps other people find the show and you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And with that, here is our first episode of our new series, Stories from the Church with Ken Reinford, Marcy Dodd, and Matt Kaufman from Petra Church. Ken, Marcy, Matt, thank you so much for being with us and welcome for the first time to the Pure Desire podcast. Thanks for being here.

It's a pleasure to be here. Three of us are delighted.

Okay, so we're really excited to start this new series. And even as I say that it's not going to be a series where you have a bunch of episodes in a row. This is just a new type of or format of episode that we're gonna do. And we get to start it with you guys and your church, Petra Church. And really what we've identified is that Petra is one of, if I'm being honest, internally on staff. Like, Petra is like the standard of how to use pure desire groups. And so no pressure whatsoever as we get into this, but you run recovery and betrayal groups well and you have made pure desire groups and the language a part of your culture. So as we started this, we're so blessed to have you guys on, to really have this first conversation of stories from the church and for our listeners too. Just knowing that these conversations, these are kind of using the story of healing perspective that we used in so many of our episodes and really just placing that toward the church, like how churches are running groups well and maintaining recovery and betrayal groups and creating that safe place. So we're really excited to have Petra, you guys be the first one. And as we get going, let's just first jump in with what, who you are, what your role is and how long you've been at Petra.

Well, my name is Ken Reinford. I role as executive pastor of ministries. I believe I've been attending Petra about 33 years prior to being on the pastoral staff. Eighteen years ago, I was working in the corporate world, so I have been involved at Petra for most of its time. See, it was founded in 1983, so about 40 years ago. Church is celebrating our birthday this year.

And I'm Marcie Dodd. I'm the LifeSpring Ministry Leader and I've been in that role for about four years. And I oversee different healing ministries that our church offers. And Pure Desire is one of them. And my family and I have been attending Petra for the past 18 years.

My name is Matt Kaufman. I'm the group's pastor here at Petra and also the men's director. So my wife and I and family, we've been attending here for around 13 years on staff. Now. Before I was here, I was involved in the family business and management there. So, yeah, as men's director, I'm overseeing a lot of different parts of the Pure Desire ministry.

Yeah, super encouraging to hear that all of you were a part of Petra prior to being on staff. And I think that's such a wonderful model of we love the community, we love what God is doing before we work for it. And it just seems to bring, I think, something real to Our work, and we love the people that we're working with and so encouraged to hear that in all of your stories. And what I love about the three of you coming on from our listeners is I think they get to hear that at a church. It really does take multiple voices speaking into this process, into groups to make it part of church culture. And so I think during the episode, we'll hear ways that each of you play a role and help your church, you know, keep these groups as part of the discipleship process at Petra. But let's kind of go back to the beginning of where did Petra get connected with Pure Desire? And when and why did you start running Pure Desire groups in the first place?

That's interesting, because back in about 24 years ago, I was the men's director here at Petra. So I've been hearing a lot of stories of brokenness and men who had better vision for themselves and what they were experiencing. Also working in a Christian bookstore environment, I was managing a chain of stores. So I was aware that when Dr. Ted published his book back in 1999, I quickly grabbed it. I grabbed it because it was.

It was.

It was the right book for the right hour. And actually I was at a book convention and he spoke there. So I was really impressed by his material, which then led to me becoming aware of a Pet or a Pure Desire University, I believe it was, down in Frederick, Maryland. And that was back in 2013. So he and Diane were there and Matt and I and 10 other. No, eight other guys. There was 10 of us that attended that seminar, that training time. So that was my first introduction to Pure Desire ministry. Let's see. Then we. Okay, back to. After that. We came back. Okay, after we came back, I shared my vision with our lead pastor or senior pastor. And he's pretty excited. He said, wow, you got the vision. You got eight guys, nine guys beside you. You run with the vision. And I believe God's going to anoint before that. Soon after that, he had a heart attack and was incapacitated. And I was director or put in charge at that point of the church. And so as we work through his healing the next couple of months, we were also working for a public showing of Conquer series. So he was back. His first sermon that he preached in the pulpit in July of 2014 was the joy of Sex from the Book of Proverbs. It was a winner. I had lined up one of my young men who struggled with pornography, and he shared his testimony with his wife standing behind him, beside him and sharing how they had been radically changed by God and had been walking in victory. Paul got a standing ovation in both services that Sunday. And for some reason something very significant happened in the spirit world. Our congregation became very grace filled from there forward and we became to be honest and transparent with our stories. It was soon after that that we announced what was that day actually we announced that we were going to start showing Conquer Series and Matt will give you the details later on. But that was an unbelievable experience. We had over 150 men involved that first year. Since then we have been running Conquer Series or Sexual Integrity 101, which we are doing on a regular basis at least three times a year. We have new groups starting all the time. We've been delighted to have Dr. Ted and his wife Diane here at least once and we've had Nick here twice and Trevor once or twice. We have ongoing training that we feel like we are called to do as a region. So we really feel like God has put us in a, in a place where our leadership is supportive of making this better, bigger than ourselves. So that's the story.

So as a church starts to engage this topic, there are definitely hurdles. There are definitely things that getting, get in the way. So for you guys, what were those initial hurdles that you guys experienced when wanting to start these pure desire groups? I mean, you guys from the top had, you know, your lead pastor was on, on board, like there was that support. So you guys didn't have quite that hurdle. But what were some of the other ones that you had and how did you overcome those?

I can speak into that. You know, Pastor Ken just was very clear about how we started and, and all of that. And I think that in that initial, I just remember we did a Tuesday night and a Thursday morning we ran two men's groups and the Tuesday night group we had 75 guys. And Thursday morning we had, we had 60 guys. And you know, we started, there was a group of us that got trained. We went through, you know, we went, we were down in Berg and then we went through the training Conquer Series, a group of us. And so we were trained, so to speak, but we had no idea, just that initial influx of guys. And so that was probably our biggest hurdle. We had buy in from leadership and the exact team and the elders and it was amazing. And I believe, I really do believe that was the catalyst for allowing guys to show up, you know, initially. And so. But the, you know, the big hurdle was how can we disciple these men? Because, you know, if any, if you've run A ten week Conquer series. You know, it doesn't stop there. And so that was some of the biggest challenges was training up leadership. How can we keep processing these men? And then of course, a lot of marriages were affected by it as well. And I know Marcy can speak into this with our counseling services, but just that initial influx was a challenge for sure. But God, you gave us the grace to do it. And it was amazing that first couple years.

And I'll just speak from the women's group's perspective. And you have to remember, as Ken pointed out, we did all of this in stages over the last 10 years. So conquer and then the seven pillars and then betrayal and beyond. So about 2015, I think we had our first Betrayal and Beyond group. And I was part of a women's leader group and we were doing the material as the women were leading the group. So they were just a few weeks ahead of where their groups were at. So being in a group with them and hearing them process their own emotions and, and feelings about it all, and then they were also leading. And so I know that was, that was a really challenging time at the beginning.

Yeah. And at the beginning, you're shaping paradigms, you're helping people rethink. Is this a safe topic to talk about in our church? And when they see leaders creating opportunities, having, you know, as you shared about earlier, Ken, that culture of grace is there. It really is a game changer. And I love what you guys shared because I've actually heard from churches that are fearful that if they open this door to, you know, sexual healing and recovery from addiction and the betrayal in marriage, I've literally had pastors say, I'm afraid that too many people would respond and we wouldn't know what to do with them. That there would just be. We're not equipped. And so for you guys to say, we weren't really equipped either. We just opened these groups and men showed up. But God gave us the grace to do what we needed to do. It helped us see the size of the problem. We were able to start training more leaders and, and you were able to navigate that. And I hope that's an encouragement to anyone listening that maybe worries, well, what if too many people want to do group? It's to say, well, you know, if, if God, if that is happening, what I would say is that usually means God is at work in your church already. People are ready to respond. And if too many people respond, God also has a plan for what he's going to do on your side as leaders. To help you handle and meet that need. And so not letting that keep moving forward I think is important. So if those were some of the initial hurdles that you guys faced in launching groups, what would you say? You know, maybe more recently or in the years that Petra has run groups, what have been some of your biggest challenges along the way as you've integrated them into the life of the church?

I would say with the, like the continuing training part has been a challenge and you guys have provided great resources now with the video training and it's, you know, it's a decade later, it's, it's a lot easier. You know, initially it was a challenge. We were kind of trying to find our way through things. And as anybody who's worked with dysfunction and trauma and, and addiction, it's, it's messy. It just is. And so, but being part of a community here where, you know, it's, we're really grace filled, just grace and truth is what we lean on. And knowing that people are going to make mistakes, there's going to be relapses and being able to help process through that and then also having amazing counselors has been, has been a big help in that. So we lean on each other. But I think some of the, I think now some of the biggest challenges we have is most of the people and Ken, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say majority of the people that come to conquer now are from outside our Petra community, you know, or outside our church walls. And so it's navigating, which in some ways is great. In other ways it's sad because their church homes aren't providing anything for them. So they come to us. So we have become a resource regionally for this area, which is great, but it is a challenge to disciple other people outside your church walls and how do you work with them. And then also some of the other big challenges has been in working with marriages. You have a spouse who's experiencing a tremendous am freedom and then you have the other spouse who's kind of locked in their own, in their own journey and whether it's the husband or the wife, and that's a tricky one to work with.

And I'll also add for the women's groups, sometimes as women are waiting for groups, you know, it can be a little bit of time. So one thing that we were able to do because we have a counseling department here as well, is one of the counselors had been through the betrayal and beyond material and she loves to lead groups. So she does A, it's a therapy group, but it's a six week betrayal group that takes some of the key themes. It's different material, but just some of those key themes that they'll be processing when they get to a Betrayal and beyond group. And so that's really helped women have a place to go in between while they're waiting for Betrayal and Beyond. Sometimes they'll go on to do the Betrayal and Beyond. Sometimes that's enough. And now that we have The Sexual Integrity 101, that's also like another pathway for a place to start. So I just think having. Having some more ways to help people as they're waiting for group has. It's been a challenge, but we're finding ways to do that.

Another big challenge for us was during.

COVID challenge for all of us right there.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. We quickly moved to zoom groups and that was really successful for most of us. Some got tired of it, but that was an interesting challenge. The other challenge is Matt has referred to that many of our people, at least 70% now of our groups, are not from Petra or attending Petra when they join group. Now one of the pluses, and I'll talk about that a little bit later on, is people then find healing and they want to stay with us, they want us to continue to disciple them. And many of them become great leaders. So we're finding great leaders of people who don't even know our culture, but one of our culture strength. Our DNA, as we always say, is out of healing and grace. And a lot of the people who come for healing, who come into our groups have not experienced that. It's like they've been told, hey, can you go someplace else? We hear the Pastor Matt, Pastor Ken, they can help you over there. And they kind of turn them off to us. But we have found many pastors who have come to us and said, how do we start this, this program? So Marcy and I, Matt and I, we have met with other pastors and told them that they can do this and we help them start in a small way. So I think last year we had three ch, maybe that was a previous year. We'll have three to four churches each year that come to us and ask for help. So we are multiplying. Church is also. And not just groups. So that's another way that we do expand ourselves as community. So that's a reward. But it's also challenging when it comes to time.

Totally. But I mean, and that's the thing, I think what's so encouraging Is that you guys are facing addiction, facing trauma head on, which are things that are not. It's like, I mean, we know discipleship practically is not a clean process. It's a messy one. But especially when you add stuff that's going like trauma and addiction, that just amplifies everything else. So I think two things I'm encouraged by. One, that you guys are just, you're running into it head on saying this is something that we're going to prioritize. But then also, if anyone's listening, I mean, Petra is a larger church. If you have a small church like this big church has issues too. They have challenges with figuring out how to get leaders and how to create that space. And so I think the challenge in and of itself that every church may experience when they're running groups can be an encouragement to other churches that they're not alone in that.

Yeah, yeah. If I could just highlight for everyone a couple of things they said there that I think we've heard from a lot of churches is one, it really helps to have a link to a local therapist or counseling office or someone you can refer people to that you feel confident in for extra support or when there's not a group about to start. And if you don't have that at your church, you know, the Pure Desire clinical team could be that. Second, they had to develop a plan to train leaders and develop new leaders so that new groups could start and we can help you with that. And then third, they had a game plan for what to do to help people in between the launch of groups, because maybe there was no groups opening, but if someone comes in the middle of their crisis, they need to get started with something. And so using material like Sexual Integrity 101 or the Conquer series or maybe another group structure to get people started in some recovery, maybe before another group launch is really a key thing we've seen a lot of churches do. So those are just three points you guys made that I'm like, man, I've heard that in a lot of churches that are doing it well. And I think we could point that out.

Let's press into. And this. I don't know if you guys are going to tell stories or just talk about how things have gone, but just, I think one of the things that we want these episodes to do with this series of stories from the church is to identify what success looks like. Like, what has success looked like specifically with running Pure Desire groups, with having this healing ministry in your church. So what are some of the biggest successes you Guys have had with running groups.

Well, we probably could write a book about some of them.

Do it.

Do it. We'll help you publish it. We will publish it.

No, there's just some really great stories. One I think about is a man who came to us, actually. He came to the 2018 Pure Desire University that was here so Nikki would have been here. And he found some really Amazing answers after 30 years of struggle and secrecy and brokenness and a marriage that was barely hanging together and children that were frazzled. And when we started ministering to him, it was his former church leaders that came to us and exposed him to us and told us about how they're not sure that he even knows who Jesus is. And he got so much rejection from them. But to see who he has become gets emotional for me because that's why we do what we do. Their marriage has been healed. They both leading groups, multiple groups. His recovery is astounding. That which used to be isn't happening anymore. And they have been healing. And his son was at church two weeks ago. I was so honored to be able to meet him because there had been such brokenness in that family. So, yeah, lots of those stories. We also have lots of stories of brokenness that's still in the process. But we do have many, many wonderful things that are happening. And I think the one back in 2015 when we started doing this ministry, I was asked to speak in a plain community. I'll refer to them as a plain community. They are. We have several different groups of very religious, plain, conservative, horse and buggy, you know, different groups. And I was asked to speak into those groups about sexual addiction, pornography, substance abuse, and actually got to speak to 3, 400 people several times. And there were times, there were police officers there. There were times that they asked the DA to speak, and he said, I'm not talking about pornography. Said, pastor Ken will talk about that. So I had that avenue of coming into those large environments. Of course, I was suspect as to who I was, and. But now, 10 years late, eight years later, many of their young people are part of our church. We baptize over 50 of them in the last two years.

Wow.

And that. And in that group now we're running CONQUER groups and living free groups. That group meets several times a week for worship. And we have designate that as a ministry that has a pastor ministering to them. And so that's opened up a whole new avenue in this area of revival. And it started through this ministry of purity. The. The fathers had met one time and they asked me, how do we talk to our kids about sex? And I gave them some instructions. They said, why don't you teach us? So we had five sessions that we met together and I was able to teach them. They brought their teenage sons with them. And I just remember one of the fathers of six children, he told me said, I learned more about sex from you, and this is on a teenage level than I've ever known. And so that those doors have just continued to open. And I believe it's a holy anointing. I handle that one very carefully and humbly. But it's been out of that. That many doors have been opened. Matt and I do a lot of counseling or coaching for guys who sneak in here who aren't quite sure that they're welcome, but they are. And I. Yeah, last week I think I had three or four different ones from that community who wanted to know what the next step for healing is. And so, yeah, we see their marriage as being healed. So we kind of. It's like two cultural groups here that we're trying to minister to. But we're all human beings and we all need grace and we just have many of those kinds of stories that are just really thrilling. The other highlight I want to mention at this point was the successes that we're using the material with our youth. So once they get into ninth grade, they have the privilege of watching Conquer Series or Sexual Integrity 101. We offer that to the girls. So we are trying to bring the subject to the front at an early age with our youth successes. We are currently running new groups every three months or so. About three times a year, we will start a new group of Conquer Series or sexual integrity 101. So currently we probably since we started this, we've had 10 to 15 groups gone year round. So there's always new ones starting and old ones coming and going and moving to the next level. We're trying the new material. We're testing. Yeah, just a lot of great things happening. I don't know Marcy or Matt have anything to add to that?

I'll just chime in. I haven't mentioned the unraveled groups. And so that is. I think we've offered. This is our third one that we're on. So the last couple years that's been a newer. I think it's one that's harder for people to get their minds around that women struggle, too. And so I have an amazing leader in that group who really understands addiction and is so passionate about it. So that has Been just a huge success to me to be able to offer that group too. And when I have people reaching out for Unraveled, I mean, you might be able to find some betrayal and beyond groups around locally, but Unraveled is hard to come by. And so I'm really excited that we can offer for that and that we have a very passionate, very dedicated leaders for that group.

I might also add another success has been our passion for sexual addiction healing. We've also been concerned about substance abuse. And so we have started Celebrate Recovery as a community event here. We now have three churches that are working with us. We host it, but there's three other churches supporting that. So we are truly a place for healing. And we say it's whatever the hurts you have come, we will bring you to Jesus. We will show you the way. And we have wonder. Yeah. Lots of many wonderful people that are involved. Like, we've been referring to our counseling ministry and we do have 10 counselors, but we also refer people to you guys at Pure Desire. We also refer people to you for groups because we cannot accommodate groups in the middle of the night or different time zone. Yeah. And so we just. We can't do that. But we have. I've had many great stories of people who are in group online, so we do promote you on the West Coast.

Yeah. I really appreciate the story of what's been happening in those plain communities and the story you told there, Ken, Because I think what I would echo what I've seen at a lot of churches when they begin running groups and make it known like, hey, we're a safe place to deal with this issue, to deal with broken sexuality and betrayal and addiction. There are people, whether it's, you know, what you described as a plain community or men or women who are just disenfranchised on church or young people, that this message in particular resonates with them because it helps them see, oh, I think this church actually has something for me that if I walk in and reveal my broken story, they're not going to, you know, turn away in horror. They're not going to give me some, you know, holiness condemnation lesson, but they're going to embrace me and care for me. And. And so the way you described that, people are kind of sliding in to try to ask confidentially, like, can I be in group? I've just seen that happen a lot. And it's an environment of grace that I think people are drawn to, even if they're maybe not yet drawn to the church. And so it becomes an I think an incredible avenue that churches can reach people that maybe right now they're. They're not reaching.

Hey, peeps. Trevor here. So it's happening again.

Our biggest event of the year, the Pure Desire Summit 2023 is coming this September and you won't want to miss it. And this year it's from the heart. You'll hear from amazing experts in the field of betrayal, trauma, addiction, recovery and relationships on a variety of topics that will ignite your heart for healing gain practical tools for cultivating deeper connections and experience the hope of healing in a safe place. We have sessions from Dr. Barbara Steffens, Nate Larkin, Heather Cole, Nick, Nick Stumbo and myself. And on top of that, we have Dr. Adrian Hickman, Rodney and Tracy Wright, Ashley Jamison and many others teaching our breakouts. The Pure Desire Summit is a place where it's okay to not be okay. It's a place to understand ourselves better and God's desire to bring healing to the wounded parts of our hearts. At the summit, you'll hear from people who understand deep hurt and isolating addiction. You'll hear from people who've walked the painful road of betrayal. You'll hear their honest stories and how they experienced and continue to experience hope and freedom. You are not alone. Join men and women on the same journey as you as we all take a courageous step toward deeper healing and recovery. Are you ready to do this together? Let's do it. Join us September 15 and 16, 2023 in the beautiful state of Oregon or from the comfort of your own living room. You can also gather family and friends and experience the event together by hosting a watch party. We are also offering multiple options for host site experiences near you. Want to bring your spouse, friend or even a high schooler too? You can get a discount off two tickets for the in person or host site event. Discount automatically is deducted at checkout. So sign up for the Pure desire summit@puredesire.org summit. Excited to see you there.

How would you guys say pure desire? These groups have impacted your church as a whole and your community. I think this is an important question because for many, many churches where groups meet, they're still kind of treated like the quiet closet ministry of the church that it's there. But we don't really talk about it because we're not sure what to say. But I get the perception that at Petra you guys have been very open to talk about groups, advertise groups, promote groups like just make it a normal part of the ministry there. So in doing that, how has that impacted your church as a whole and maybe even the community around you?

I think it's given us great favor in the community because we're willing to deal with some of the ugly things in life. People are not ashamed to come here throughout the week. Like I said, we have groups happening here during the afternoons for some of the women's groups, and we have men's groups happening here all the time. They're not. You don't come in the back door. You come in the front door, you're accepted. Nobody bats an eye. You know, we are. You're welcome here. It's a safe place. And so safety is really important to us. We don't expose who's in the groups, but it's quite obvious who goes into a group, although you don't know which group they're going into. So we try to make it very comfortable for everybody. And I think that was a. We've obtained that culture of safety because of our leaders. And I wanted to say earlier that one of the things is there's a great level of transparency, men to men, women to women here. We have great honor here on our staff. We support each other, we give each other breaks when we're tired, and groups are wearing us down. But there's great compassion among the staff. It starts all the way at the top, and it makes a big difference. Like I said, we've become known as a regional church, a place where people feel safe. We don't. There's one of the things we do not ask where you go to church or if you even go to church when you join a group. Many of the groups, I never find that out. We don't ask that question. But I do see people showing up on Sunday mornings. They are coming because they feel it's a safe place, especially when he's being healed, he's receiving, healing. And she's still angry, you know, when she doesn't want to look at me or one of the leaders. It's a journey of safety, and we try to get. Make sure that everybody's feeling comfortable. It is a large church, but we're only around 2,000, so that's large here in the East. It's not especially large through other parts of the country, but it's large here. One of the other things that's impacted us is this transparency is that we've kind of initiated what I call sexual discipleship opportunities. We try to round out not only recovery, but prevention. So working with our counselors, they've developed a really amazing program. How to talk to your kids about sex? Of course. Using Rodney's book. Yeah, Rodney rates book about sex and other books we've had. Last year we had a. In the fall, Rodney was not able to come, but we had an open forum in an evening where parents came and I forget we had several hundred parents there. Talk to you how to talk to your kids about sex. That was a really hot one. I mean, popular.

Yeah.

And we had books and suggestions and try to get people talking to each other about it. And then we ran another one on how to respond to the gender issues that your kids are facing in school. So that was a very open public forum. So those are the kinds of things we try to provide. Rounding out. We're not only working at healing, we're working at prevention. And I think just letting our staff and our teachers and pastors know about what kids are going through in their schools, what the youth are going through. So we try to be culturally alert and we're working with several cultures, of course, and we try to provide resources. So those are some of the ways that it has changed our church and continues to shape us.

Yeah, I don't know about you, Nick, but I want to go to Petra. Like, why don't we go to Petra? It sounds so great. You know, I think one of the things that you guys talked about with your initial hurdles, and I'm sure you know, that's that ongoing challenge of recruiting leaders. And I think anybody who's listened to the podcast or been through group knows that our hope is that as people go through groups, when they finish a group, they go back and then they lead other people through that process as well. So that's kind of the organic way. But for you guys, how have you recruited and trained leaders? Especially when you have so many people who are joining groups that are outside of your church, what does that look like for Petra?

Well, we still use the model you need to go through a group to lead a group. So we stick to that pure desire recommendation that you need to go through the group and then you can, pending, you know, approval from myself and Matt and Ken, you can be a co leader and then you can go on to lead. And I just have to say we each have leader groups. So I lead the. Any women who are leading groups, I lead a group with them every month. And then Ken and Matt have a men's leader group, so they're meeting with them every month. And it's partly for training, partly for accountability, partly for group check in and prayer. And we have been using The Pure Desire group training. And it's just excellent. Like, we all watch it together, we're all listening to it together. And even it's great because we have some who are new leaders, but those who have even been leading groups multiple times, we're all hearing the same material again. It's good reminders that you have to stick to those group guidelines. We cannot emphasize that enough. So that's just really important one way that we're training and recruiting. So, yeah, it does take some time to get leaders. I think that's something that we're always searching for. Like you say, we want to have safe environments, but we also need competency. And so we want men and women who are in a good place on their journey and are really being transformed by the Lord and just can work with a group setting. See, what else did I want to say about the training? Oh, and I did want to give a shout out for the New Betrayal and Beyond material because I have a group of women who are potential leaders and current leaders and previous leaders going through that material. So that we all just have a sense of what's different as we go to launch new groups with that. And we all just really love it. We love the old material too, but just some different approach that they're taking. We've. We've really been encouraged by that. So I think that we're just always learning as well. You know, we try to take advantage of all the resources that you offer. The podcast, your church membership. Our leaders have access to that. So just trying to. We have you guys come for training, so that's always an important piece too.

That's good. I want to give a shout out for the membership, the Pure Desire membership also. That gives us access to have many of our leaders receiving the material. They can listen to it at home, especially new leaders. They really. They like that access. So thank you. That's well done. I want to say also, as Marcy was mentioning, a lot of our. We've been talking about a lot of the students, the participants not being from Petra. We do train them up and we send them out. That's why I said the three churches this year, we have sent leaders back. It's always hard to give away, but we have been blessed because we're constantly getting more and we have gotten great feedback from those that have gone out. But we do use them here. They do train. They usually operate as a co leader or as a leader of a group. And then I encourage them to. To speak to their pastor and start groups there. So it's happening. We are multiplying. So I guess we think about today that it's really a mission that we're on. We want to see churches in our region heal, provide healing ministries. And so we're. I'm really grateful for an eldership and pastors and exec team who are supporting our vision to heal the community. And, and that, that environment of grace, though, that's who we are.

I wanted to say too, I think, you know, as a, as a Petra community, we've embraced the fact that we're that hospital church, you know, that model. As Pastor Ken has mentioned before, we, you know, we deal with substance abuse and, you know, there's lots of things that addictions deal with. So I think we've embraced that. You know, our, our exec team, our elders have embraced that. Senior leadership has embraced that. And that's certainly helped us, given us that spiritual authority to speak into people's lives, to train people up. And, you know, it's, it's not easy. It's not all rainbows here, but it certainly is something that we've embraced. And I believe we're walking in the calling that God has given us as a church.

Yeah, it's exciting to hear you guys refer to, you know, your elders, your board, your, your other pastors and having that support. And so if, if there's anything you haven't able to talk about there, I'd love to hear more. Like, what does pastoral oversight look like of the groups? And then in particular, how would you encourage other churches when it comes to engagement from church leadership? Because as I mentioned, I think there are many churches that have groups, but pastoral staff maybe keeps them at arm's length or doesn't know how they should be involved or what role should they have, or maybe thinks it's better that they keep distant from it. How would you encourage pastors and church staff that they can support and encourage groups and leaders in their church?

I'll start out here with how we do some things, and Ken, you can add more to the last part of his question. So the structure that we have here is called lifespring, and that encompasses a lot of our different kinds of healings, ministries, support groups. And then we also have Restoring the Foundations, which is a prayer ministry group. And then we have the Pure Desire groups. Lots of different groups and pathways for people to find healing. But a core part of that is that we have a LifeSpring core team, and they are our intercessors for all the LifeSpring Ministries, Ministries and prayer has been such a huge part of, I think, the success of this ministry and other ministries that we have here and the openness that. That it's created for people to find healing. So the prayer very much goes strongly with that. So when you talk about oversight, we do have a core team in within lifespring that's praying and interceding for all the ministries. And then I talked about our leader groups and. And part of that, too, is also having prayer coverage. I encourage all leaders to have someone praying for them and praying for their group, and then all group members to have someone praying for them, at least one person, as they're going through. So intercessory prayer is really just a core part of who we are as a church and a part of all of our healing ministries. And, yeah, I think I wanted to add to that, too, as we continue to add pieces to the healing ministries that you had mentioned earlier about not just not being afraid to go to the dark places with people. And you all had recommended the Fearless series for women a little while back, and that's something that we have incorporated here, too. And that was one with great fear and trepidation of, wow, we're going here, too. But, you know, God really does open doors, and that's why I'm tying that back into the prayer of. These are ministries we've been praying for, for years of how can we help people, what resources can we bring to people? And the ministries come to us that way. And so that's just a real big key.

Yes. Thank you, Marcy. She said we have LifeSpring Ministries, and then we have LifeSpring Counseling. So we have 10 counselors. And Marcy's really blessed because she's married to the lead counselor. Her husband is in charge of the counseling ministry, and she's in LifeSpring. So really, they're both very gifted in what they do. And so it's an honor to have her husband leading those counselors. They are independent, but they are available. And so the way we go up, I oversee all of it. And so whenever there's. There's all these channels one can go through before it gets to me. And. But ultimately, we'll solve the crisis that somebody's involved in the cross. This week, friends, last week, we've had several women who say, hey, we need some space, some separation. So we work with. You know, is there housing around? Is there some way that we can support the counseling ministry as they help this couple through it? So we definitely team together. A great honor between all of us as pastors, we have 11 pastors and we kind of all generally know what's going on in the ministries. And so this week I asked for prayer for what we're doing here today. So there's others know what we're doing. We. I agree with Marcy. Prayer is a huge piece of who we are and how we relate to our Father God. So lots of grace, lots of trust and lots of honor.

Yeah, it's just, I mean, it's cool as just listening to you guys. Like, the benefit of having pastoral buy in pastoral insight, like, you know, oversight and input into what's happening is it's not just an emphasis across the board and your staff. It's also resources that you're willing and able to give because that's one of the things that, you know, volunteers can go to their pastors, their elders and say like, hey, can we have some money for a church membership or to get 101 or something like that. And, you know, that isn't always the case. And so I think what's so cool, and I would just say here too, that it's not that you have to have pastoral oversight and it has to be this engaged like Petra, for groups to be successful, but man alive, it is unbelievable what you guys are doing and the type of church and the type of. You mean that you guys talk about the hospital model church. Like that is because, yes, the Lord is working in your church. Yes, people are coming to you. But it's that continued openness and emphasis that your staff and your volunteers and your elders are putting on this area.

It's just, it's amazing, I think, to take to heart what Marcy said. Even if you're at a church where you feel like you don't have this level of support or staff members are not involved in supporting the groups, recruiting people that can be praying for you as a leader for your group and having that support and covering I, I think is an essential component that we could have at any church, regardless of the level of support above us. It's just knowing that we're, we're not isolated in this. There are people that, that know we're leading a group, are praying over us, praying for the group. And I just think that's a real dynamic that we maybe underscore at times because it's not as visible, it's not as tangible, and we know the right answer is always to pray. But especially in those situations where you feel like you don't have a lot of support coming from leadership above you to Know that you've got others in kind of that peer support role. Praying and interceding for you, I think is just, just very, very important. And so I was glad Marcy mentioned that.

Yeah. So let's push into this. There are going to be people who are listening, who are pastors and leaders at their church. And so just thinking through that, what encouragement would you give these leaders, give these churches that are listening when it comes to the value of pure desire groups and how it can impact their church and impact their community?

Yeah. Like Pastor Ken had, had said a while ago, you know, this. This did not happen overnight. You know, the stories you're hearing now, the testimonies we have now, you know, we've been doing this for over a decade, and, you know, there's a lot of bumps and bruises and mistakes we made along the way. But, you know, just that initial push we had just with senior leadership, there's just. It's hard to put a value on that, you know, when you have that behind you. And if you are a pastor who is a senior pastor of a church, big or small, and you're kind of weighing the options, you do see culturally where we're at, you don't have to look very far. And we are living in a highly sexualized culture, and our kids, our youth, young adults, seniors, we're all affected by it. And it's time that we as a church stepped out. And sometimes it's a big leap, it's a step of faith, because there can be pushback. But, you know, it's. I believe what we're doing is the tip of the spear, and I love being a part of that. And, and having on ramps. And so I just encourage you, you know, as a pastor, provide as many on ramps as you can for your community. And whether, whether it is for your young adults or your senior adults or women or men, whatever that is, I think it's super important. And it creates healing. You know, it's. It cultivates healing. And yes, there will be messes along the way, but a lot of those, a lot of your fears will be alleviated. When you see people walking in freedom and we're set free. You know, that just the power of your testimony as people hear the testimonies, I'm just, you know, reminded in my groups, you know, I'll have, you know, a guy, a senior guy, maybe in his 60s, and he's been dealing with. With sexual addiction for decades. And, and just seeing the fact that he can walk in freedom and it's not Too late. It's never too late. You know, it's. It's terrible place to be when you feel hopeless. And if you want. If you want your community, your congregation to be walking in freedom, to be walking in the calling that God has given them, then we need to provide avenues for them to set them free. And it's. It's a. It's a. It's a multifaceted way. There's intercession, there's prayer, there's. There's counseling. But we also need to have competent leaders and provide on ramps with the peer desire groups to allow people to be set free.

That's a really great question, Trevor. And I often ask that question, how do you create culture? And I know that In Sexual Integrity 101, I forget which chapter it is, but there's creating that environment of grace, that culture of grace. And I definitely appreciate our lead pastor from years ago. He's now transitioned out, but he has created a culture of grace. And that's the critical place where people need to feel safe. And just a couple weeks ago, our lead pastor now, who's in his mid four or early 40s, he's talking about transparency and accountability. And he said, pastor Ken knows all of my secrets. Do you have any idea what that tells the congregation? That creates a level of trust, and that's a level of trust that we operate in here, that there's transparency, there is brokenness on us as human beings, but we are transparent, and we do pray and stand with each other. And it creates a incredible level of trust and effectiveness as leaders. So there's no magic formula. It's a lot of hard work.

Yeah, that's good.

And I think just to add at the end there, Ken, what you're talking about is having someone that you're processing up with. So no matter what size church you have or how your groups are run, have somebody who you process up with that you can talk to, because that's what. That's what also creates that culture of grace and accountability.

Absolutely. And I appreciate the way you guys are speaking to that, because it's what. But we recommend the value of groups at your church isn't just that. I think sometimes leaders look at it as maybe a math problem. Well, how many people are struggling and what do they need? So how many groups? And if a leader concludes, oh, we don't think it's that big of a problem at our church, then based on the math, they're like, well, we don't really need groups. But what they're maybe Missing is A, a lot more people struggle than they think, but B, and probably more importantly, the way that when you're integrating these groups and when you're doing like Petra is promoting them just as a part of the life of the church, it's not a hidden thing, it's a part of announcements. Group starts celebrating people's stories of life change. It does, I think, make a big difference in the culture of your church. It starts to communicate that authenticity is just a part of how we do church, whether we're the pastor or it's our first week here. That vulnerability and being able to be real and be shown grace in those places of our vulnerable. Vulnerability is available to every person here again, whether you're the pastor or it's your first Sunday. And I think it's difficult to explain how valuable that culture is until you're experiencing it, because in my opinion, I think a lot of churches feel that they have it. But if you were to ask, well, does it feel safe in this church to bring up sexual addiction, pornography, battles with past affairs, things like that, many people would say, well, yeah, we don't talk about that here. And I think the reality is if you don't talk about it, it's not safe. And this is a way to, to kind of broaden our definition of safety, of grace, of vulnerability into an area that many people have never experienced. And when they do, I think not only does it transform your church culture, but it, it transforms a lot of people because they begin to experience church differently. And I think you guys are explaining so well how that's happened at Petra. And we're, we're so grateful for you guys, thankful for what you're doing. Last year, Petra also led the way as being the first official host site to Live stream the Pure Desire Summit, our annual event. And so I know you're doing it again this year. And from your experience, why would you all say that men, women, and churches should prioritize being a part of the Pure Desire Summit in September?

Well, last year was the first year that I was able to attend the summit on Live Stream, and it was amazing how encouraging it was to what we were doing. But I think one of the most impactful things to me was some of the powerful speakers you had. And I've actually gone out, we've gone out and bought some of the books, and we're now listening to their, their teaching and their training. So to me, it's a phenomenal training opportunity that really is worth every penny and it's really educational. It's motivational, it's a spiritual experience. And we do have interaction with the people here, so there's community. I find it really a very valuable experience. Marcy's going to speak to that also.

Well, I would just add. I just. It's. Yeah, it's great training for, for anybody, whether you're in a group or leading a group. But it's. It's good for all of us to go through and just continue to assess the culture that we're in and where we are in our own health and to keep utilizing the tools and be encouraged that there's always more that we can be doing. We've never arrived. This is a healing process for all of us. And so it's great for anybody that wants to learn more about it and it's great for those of us who have been in it, but we always have more to learn and to grow.

And the other thing I'd like to add was that it's really good for me as a pastor to hear what God is doing in other parts of the country and actually the world now to what is happening in this whole sexual revolution and what are the resources and to hear about brain science and just some of those things that come out when you hear the speaker speak. To me, it was really valuable. It helps us to strategize as pastors, to be alert, alert. So to me, it's really a timely event. It's worth the hours of investing.

Yeah.

And we just, you know, you heard it from them, like if you want to attend the summit. PureDesire.org summit and Petra is one of a number of churches that are host sites. And so if you are over near their neck of the woods and the east coast, if you guys want to go check it out, you can, you can be there and meet these guys in person and watch the summit with them. Ken, Marcy, Matt. It's funny. I knew that this episode was going to be great. I know that this series is going to be helpful. I didn't know how encouraged I would be just hearing you guys talk about the way you've implemented groups, the way that you're running it, the way that you're stepping into the brokenness with people and helping them and how that's become the lifeblood and almost the identity of your church, that you help people experience the grace and healing, healing of Jesus. And so, number one, thank you so much for what you do in ministry. Like, ministry alone is really difficult work and hard. Thank you for taking on this burden of helping people in this specific area of sexual addiction and betrayal. And thanks for being with us today and sharing you guys experience with Pure Desire resources and our group structure. So thank you so much for your time.

Thank you. We appreciate you guys.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. You can make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.