312 - Addressing Porn In The Church w/ Sam Black

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 312 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Bring out your dad. Bring out your dad.

Are you saying dead or dad dead?

Dead. Dead. You know, there's like, the exact same way. It's a British accent, and I think that's what it sounds like. So I was trying to say it with the accent, but you're right, it just kept coming out the same way.

I got nothing. I got nothing, man. Absolutely nothing.

This must just be a little before your generation, because if, like, you're in your 40s, should we take that as a dis. No, it's a good thing. But I'm just saying every guy in his 40s, like, knows exactly where that's from.

Okay.

Because it's like such a cult classic of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Okay.

I mean, in fairness, I should have a little bit.

Well, it's honestly not that great of a movie.

If my dad listened to the show, he'd be soaked all over. Oh, my God.

He'd be soaked.

Like, are you kidding me right now? Anyways, let's move past my family of origin. We had. This is a new guest that we've never had on the show. I know you know him personally. You've had some interaction. Him and I have emailed back and forth, but we had Sam Black from Covenant Eyes, who is the author of the new book the Healing what Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and How to Fix It. And we had him on really, just to talk about how to address pornography in the church.

Yeah. Sam Black has been a friend of the ministry for a long time, is a great guy, and I mean, as you'll hear, has been involved with Covenant Eyes and on that side of church relationships and how to help churches use Covenant Eyes for their staff and people in the church. And so I think his book just comes out of a lot of the interactions he's had. And I'm excited for people to get to hear what he has come up with with, because a lot of it's based on his research and conversations and finding what's working. And he makes some comments in there about the challenges we have. And in that clip from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, one guy is being brought out, is dead, but he's not dead. He's like, I'm not dead yet. I think I'll be okay. And then they end up like the guy bringing him out and knocks him over the head just so he can get rid of him. And it's kind of a picture, I think, of what can happen to men and women and even pastors who struggle with is they want to get better, but they don't know what else to do. And they just kind of get thrown in the heap of, well, you know, too bad for you. You struggle, you're out of here. We move on. And as Sam brings up so well today, there's better ways we can help our leaders, we can help our people. And if we feel like we don't know what to do, that's understandable. But his book is being written so that we know what to do. And whether that's with Pure Desire or one of the many other ministries that you can get help from, that Sam brings up in the book that's our Heart's Cry is like, just do something. Because there are people who are hurting and we can help. You don't just have to throw them onto the pile of those that aren't going to make it as too often, I think happens. So, yeah, I really thought it was a great conversation today.

Yeah. And if you are a pastor or church leader, just know that there actually, at the end, there is a giveaway that we have for you to help.

You in this area that Covenant Eyes has. It was very nice of them to.

Make me collectively, Sam and us together. It was out of his generosity.

Just want to make sure to give credit because I think it's cool that they're doing what they're doing.

You're going to have the credit, Sam. I know you're going to listen to this one.

Okay.

So another thing that, I mean, this is what we offer to help churches in this area is our church membership program. And a lot of this is maybe new. I mean, it is a fairly new resource that we're offering. But let's talk about it a little bit and why people should consider getting this for their church.

Yeah, I mean, it dovetails so nicely with what we talk about today, that our goal behind church membership is we really wanted to give pastors and leaders everything they need to launch and equip groups and leaders at their church in this area. So there's group leader training, there's the introductory video series, monthly live Q and A sessions we do with our groups team. There's all kinds of benefits. There's a monthly session that I do just to encourage and kind of pastor Leaders to say, hey, you're not alone. We're with you. And many more things that we just keep adding because we want to say if you're tackling this issue and we know it can be challenging, we just want to provide everything you need so that you feel like, hey, as long as I open the door and kind of champion the ministry as the pastor in my church, Pure Desire can help do the rest. They can train my leaders and help launch the groups and do it in a way that we have seen be successful in many, many other churches. And so if you're at that starting point saying, all right, we're ready to do something, church membership could be a powerful starting place for you. And if you're in a church that's not ready to do that as a church, we do have an individual membership you could get as well just to train and equip yourself in in hopes of the day that one day maybe your church might become members as well.

Yeah. So if you want to sign up for the church membership or individual, just go to PureDesire.org membership.

All right.

Subscribe to the podcast. We say it every week. If you're not subscribed, I mean, literally, it takes just one press of a button. That's all it takes. It's for free, I promise. And we're on all the major platforms, and if you give us a review, it helps other people find the show, which is great. Also, follow us on social media, Pur Desire, pdmi. And with that, here is our time with Sam Black from Covenant Eyes on addressing porn in the church. Sam Black, welcome for the first time to the Pure Desire podcast. Man, great to have you.

It is an honor to be here. I get to listen to you guys and enjoy it. And what an honor to be here talking with you today. Thank you so much for having me.

That's awesome. I didn't know you were a listener. That's. I mean, my opinion of you has now raised exponentially. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

I have on my screen just over to the side of me, waiting to watch the one with Nate Larkin.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's exciting for me to hear him. I'm always to hear Nate speak.

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so today we're looking at what churches get wrong when it comes to the topic of pornography and addressing it in their communities. You've got a new book out on this topic, which we'll get here to shortly. So we just wanted to press into your research, your expertise in this area, and really Unpack this book and what you have to say. And we're both really excited about our time together as we get going. Sam, some people may not know who you are or what you do with Covenant Eyes. And so for those people who are unfamiliar, can you just fill them in, like who you are, a little bit of your backstory and what you do at Covenant Eyes?

Yeah. So I've been at covenant eyes for 16 years. It doesn't seem near so long. Just seems like yesterday that I joined that team and I've had the amazing opportunity to serve and editing more than 16 books on the impact of pornography and, and recovery to be their first editor for our blog. Just the number of beautiful things that the, that Covenant Eyes has created an opportunity for me to do and, and see and meet amazing people in organizations like you guys and, and, and, and it was a special honor for me because I get to give back what other guys poured into my life. I had my own struggle with pornography that lasted from middle school to high school, into college, into my marriage, and as men poured into my life to create a living change and growing change. Now, you know, it's such an honor to be able to give that back. You don't. You keep what you give away.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah. Well, we are big fans of what you do at Covenant Eyes and of the book. You know, I was really honored to have the chance to weigh in on your research and provide some perspective and then also to get to see an advanced copy of it and provide an endorsement. And so I'm excited about the content and know that people really get a lot from it. But tell us more about the book, the healing, what Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and How to Fix it, and specifically how this book is written to and for pastors and ministry leaders. Why did you choose to focus on them in the book?

Well, Nick, you and I were actually with a group of other leaders and counselors and coaches and other and pastors who were trying to address how do we really help the local church, the small church, the medium sized church, the large church. Why are they having so much difficulty and what can we do to help? Well, that happened in 2019. Covid hit in 2020. And we just always sort of went our separate ways in that time, but at this and worked on different projects. But right after we had that meeting, Nick, I went to a men's ministry conference where I was asked to speak on pornography. And as I began to provide the very basics of understanding of how men are being stuck in pornography it was almost revolutionary to them. They were like, they were pausing. You know, it was a very workshop environment and they were, they would pause me wait, what you. They do what? Early exposure, this repetition, this brain science, all the above. It was like it was revolutionary to them. And of course you know that it's not. This is something we've been known for quite a while. And so there I had a choice and it was, I don't know if I did have a choice, I'll come back to that. But I could either complain about it or I could do something about it. And God has used my, my expertise as a journalist at Covenant Eyes and, and I felt truly the Holy Spirit sort of pushing me and saying, sam, you need to help equip pastors with some compassion and understanding and equip them because this, the church is God's plan A and there is no plan B. So we need to equip our ministry leaders, help them understand this well. And so I wrote the the Healing Church as a. A compassionate and empathetic primer to the local pastor and ministry leader so that they can really press into this issue and have a deeper understanding of why men and women and teens are becoming stuck, why they often stay stuck without help, and how the church is God's plan to bring transformation and restoration into people's lives. And we have to lean into that as the church. And the great thing is there's many great examples across the United States of churches doing remarkable work in this sphere. And so there's no need to reinvent the wheel. We can learn what other churches are doing, use as an example and lean in to this effort.

Yeah, it's cool. I was just thinking too, as you're saying that, that we've had conversations and we know this from experience both as pastors, but then also just people who've grown up in the church that as the goes, so the church will go. If a pastor is passionate about something and is willing to press time, energy and resources into it, the church usually follows suit unless it's a really unhealthy church. I'm sure that happens from time to time or a really unhealthy leader. But we just had a conversation a couple episodes ago with Petra Church and how they're doing it well and they're buy in from their elders and their buy in from their executive pastors and their staff into creating a healing church model where it's okay to not be okay, it's okay to ask for help and they have space where it's Safe to go get. Healing is so important. And so that just alone makes me so excited that this book is catered to people who are in leadership in the church because they have far more influence in even people's perception that healing is possible. And if they're able to make that more public, so many more churches could be healthier.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm really thankful for the topic because I think, as you know, Sam, there are a lot of really good books out there for the individual who's struggling and to provide some perspective. And many of us, I mean, myself included, have written our story into book form and encouraging others. Here's steps you can take. I think there's some good books out there for parents and what to do with our kids and how to protect kids and. And there's some good books out there on the dangers of pornography and what's happening in our world. But I do feel like addressing church leadership specifically is. Is really few and far between. And yet we believe, as. As Covenant Ice does, that the church is absolutely central to this entire field because if the church doesn't have successful strategies to help men and women in their community and people feel like, well, the only way I can get help is to go somewhere else to secretly or privately get help from a counselor, an outside ministry, and then come back to my church and keep quiet about it, we're not going to see a change made because the isolation, the secrecy, the shame is what's driving the whole topic. And so when churches address it, when churches can own a healing ministry in this area, that's when shame and isolation and secrecy are really dismantled. And so that's our vision, that the church is where this battle has to be won. And I know it is a huge emphasis for Covenant Eyes as well. And so, yeah, just to say I echo what you're saying, and I'm grateful that this book will be out there, and I hope many, many pastors, leaders, and even those who aren't pastors and leaders, but no one might pick it up and think about handing it to their pastor just to say, hey, what could we do in this area?

So, Sam, let's press into that, because with your role at Covenant Eyes, and I know writing a book, there's obviously research involved, but the research you've done, the studies you've done on church and church culture, and even interviewing the many leaders that you did for this, did anything surprise you or really stand out in your findings?

In 16 years of doing this, it's hard to become a little bit surprised. By what we see. Right. However, I guess two things stood out for me. One is there's some churches out there again that are doing some amazing work. And what I did with the book was create a primer so that other ministry leaders could not only follow what other churches were doing well, but also learn and discover about programs like Pure Desire and Samson Society and other programs and organizations that are ready to help now. And surprisingly, when I talk to many pastors and leaders at the, at the local level, they often don't know, even some don't even know about Covenant Eyes. And we've been doing this for 23 years now, creating software and content to help people stop using pornography for good or never start and partnering with churches on, on a large scale. And, and I will, I was just at our conference not too long ago and said have you heard of Covenant Ice? And like never heard of it. It's like, and this has been a. He was a long time pastor. Been pastoring for probably four years.

Yeah.

And so that, that really cemented for me that the need for a primer for pastors and ministry leaders to really get understand the basics, but then also discover and learn about all the resources that are available for the local church. Now that's a main purpose of the book too. The other part that did give me a little pause is the things that we know to be true that were cemented in scientific research and study. So when we consider that when sin creates suffering and it creates distance, we pull away from God because of our sin. Often that happens. Sometimes we, you know, we want to be repentant and especially when it comes to pornography, we end up in this cycle. But what scientific studies were showing was indeed there was a direct correlation between pornography use and church attendance, volunteerism, prayer life, Bible reading, do I feel close to God? All of those scientifically had a. From the University of Oklahoma and other scientific studies were showing that indeed pornography is hurting your church. Every church in America is being impacted by pornography and on multiple levels. And so we, we often look at the church and go, well, why are numbers shrinking and why are this, why aren't people volunteering and why aren't they active in this? And there is a correlation to how pornography is impacting the church.

Yeah, I remember as I was getting into my own story and you know, unlike many people was also a pastor at the time and so got to, as I was processing my story and had begun to be public with it was was preaching and of the preaching and interacting with people around my story and what was happening in our church. It just really began to hit home for me that for most people, and I would say that pretty significantly for most people in the church, the deepest pain that they've encountered in their life is sexual in nature. Whether it's abuse that happened to them as a child, something that happened in their parents marriage, something that happened in their marriage, their addiction to pornography. And then you look around at the world and you're like, man, it is everywhere. It is ubiquitous. It's like, as we heard someone say, it is harder now to avoid pornography than it is to find it. And I can't think of any other topic that is both personally impacting people in the church and is so prevalent all over, outside the church. And yet for many in the church, back to your first point, they are still largely unaware of what even exists out there to help people. And I think we feel that here at Pure Desire too, that disconnect, like, oh, we want every church to do something and know something. And whether it's Pure Desire or be broken or Samson society or, you know, all the number of groups that are doing good work in this area, it's like, do something. And yet many are still going, oh, well, we don't really know, or we just. We didn't have a plan. And so we hoped people might, you know, go to a counselor if they need that. And it just. I don't know. In some ways it's heartbreaking because it's like once you get into this, you realize these realities, but if you haven't really taken some of those steps, I think as a pastor, a leader, and I don't fault them because, you know, when I was in my own struggle, I was pretty blind to it because I didn't want to address it. So I know there's a lot of reasons we don't address it, but when we're in that place, there's just this disconnect. And I really hope we're all working towards solving that so that people know there's good resources out there.

Yep, absolutely.

So one of the things you mention in the book, Sam, and that you unpack a little bit, is how this idea that pornography undermines every ministry in the local church. So what do you mean by that? What does that look like? That pornography is impacting every ministry? Because I think most people don't think of it that way.

That's a pretty bold statement, right? It really is.

You made it so that's right.

Now you defend it.

Samography impacting our children's ministry.

Right?

When we recognize that 93% of boys and 63% of girls are being exposed to pornography, that the Average age for first exposure is somewhere between the ages of 8 and 12, depending on which study you're looking at. Yet when it comes to children's ministry, we pour lots of activity into helping them learn Bible stories and read scripture and things and not recognize that often those innocent, beautiful faces are also being lured away from scripture by, by Satan's trap. And we know also from a, that early exposure is a foundational building block to pornography addiction and sex addiction. We, we study, we see that over and over again. When we think of teen ministries now we're talking about children who've often been watching pornography for years. Now when we think about men's ministry, we host a pancake night or the pancake breakfast and the steak night and the outing and go hiking or whatever it is we're going to go do and don't really communicate more than pornography is wrong. God's not for that. And that's the only place that they hear that is on that men's retreat. Then we, then we are not addressing how pornography is undermining our men's ministry when we have to understand a third of women in the church so they have an ongoing struggle with Internet pornography. And somewhere around 14% or so are saying this is something that's happening for me on a weekly or multiple times a week where I am struck pornography. Right. And you probably have some, some other stats you'd share there. When we think about volunteerism in the church, and yet we see scientific studies that showing that there's a direct correlation between your volunteer, your volunteer pool and those who are struggling with pornography. It's, and, and let's keep in mind that some people are volunteering and doing more in your church because they're trying to make up for the sin shame that they have in their life. So just because you have some good volunteers in your church, don't count this out, that you have to understand that there's, there's often a, the coin flip where we perform well so that God will be more forgiving of our sin. We thank, think and then we, we fail so well, that's a different topic. But when we look at all these different areas where pornography is impacting ministry, including financial donations to the church, indeed pornography is impacting every ministry in the church. And so addressing pornography in the church, well, addressing unwanted sexual behaviors in the church well, leads to a strengthening of every ministry in your church. And, and just because I Didn't mention the senior ministries. Let's keep in mind that how often have we seen men, especially coming to us, and they're in their 70s and 80s, and they have been struggling their entire life with pornography. So we. It's not an overstatement, in my opinion. I feel passionately that pornography is undermining every ministry in the church and that we end up basically, we're like losing traction. If you can imagine a vehicle traversing across a landscape and they're. That's losing traction in the mud. That's the slippery slope of pornography that is doing that. That is undermining our work in the church. Yeah.

You know, a couple thoughts come to mind. How shame keeps us isolated and pulling away from community. And so even thinking about just the lifeblood of the church being small groups of people who gather together and do life, if people are pulling away from that, you don't have that kind of community. You don't have that kind of culture. And obviously those people. I mean, I like the way you said, Sam, that some actually press in deeper. My somewhat educated guess, I would say that that's probably more women than it is men. That's just my guess. I think in my experience with men, I see a pull away from community and from serving. Again, kind of just I have one eye open with a shot kind of in the dark. But I think that that's something I see. And then also thinking through, like, marriages, you know, knowing that the relationship between a man and a woman is the clearest picture of the gospel that we have in Scripture. It's literally. That's what it says. And so I think that if pornography is not addressed, then you have all of these marriages that are hurting and all of these marriages that are suffering, both people with addiction and the trauma, but then also the kids. And so you're setting up generational dysfunction when it comes to people and their health. And honestly, if the church isn't addressing it and they're not talking about it, then why would those kids want to go to the church and want to engage with a place that isn't talking about their experience and how to make it better?

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up marriage, because we pour a lot into marriage ministry. Right. The weekend retreat, etc, and we know that in 56% of divorce cases today, a major contributing factor is an ongoing use of pornography or obsessive use of pornography by one spouse or the other.

Yeah, well, I've been leading groups of men since, you know, I faced my story and shared it with Our church. And I can't tell you how many times as you hear men's stories, because that's something we do in the group. We share our whole story. And a guy will say something like, you know, as a young man, I felt called into ministry. But then, you know, I started sleeping with my girlfriend, or I thought maybe God wanted me to be a missionary. But then, you know, I was struggling with pornography. I felt called, you know, all these guys saying they had a call on their life. And then what disqualifies them, at least in their mind and in that voice of shame, was their struggles with sexual brokenness. And I really just started to pick up on that and see man going back to some. Something you've already said. Sam. I think it's a master strategy of Satan to cripple Christ followers to just saying, oh, you're not good enough. You're disqualified. If they knew what you've done, they wouldn't even want you in their church, let alone to serve or to be a pastor or a leader. And I think if we take that as pastors and leaders, one of our primary calls is to equip the church for service, to equip God's people to follow God's plan in their life. And the reality is, many men, and I'm not done groups with women, but I would assume there are similarities, think that they're disqualified, that they can't be equipped because of this struggle in their life. And so when we can help unlock that shame and bring healing and redemption, it's kind of like bringing them back to a place of being equipped to serve, to pursue what God has had for their life. Because I think in a lot of those stories, what I've said to those men is, you know, I don't think that call on your life has changed now. It might look different now because it's been 20 years or, you know, you're not in college and you didn't get a degree in youth ministry or whatever. But I think what God put in you and that desire is very legitimate. And the enemy has just been putting this cloud over your life since then, trying to tell you you can't do it. What if part of your healing, what if part of your freedom is as you get healthy, you now go back into the things that God has called you to do and discover his purpose for you all along. And so that, I mean, I would hope when a pastor or leader thinks about that, it's like, like, man, that's motivating. If we're struggling to get people to consider, you know, vocational ministry or, you know, significant roles of leadership. Maybe it's their struggles with pornography that's holding them back. And what if the church was free? You know, what if they were truly free of this? What kind of army of servants and pastors and missionaries might we unleash into the world? And wouldn't that be incredible?

Nick, let me take that one little step further, because so often in the church, we are shooting our wounded. And many men and women who are going to ministry have struggled with pornography. I don't want to say many. What I want to say is there's a percentage of. Of them that have struggled and in the. And they have likely entered ministry because they've probably had some wounds and pain in their life, and they don't want others to go through that kind of wounding and pain. They have a heart to serve others because of that. And they've had a miraculous encounter with Jesus and they want to give back to that church, but because they haven't really gone through a process because they haven't dealt with those wounds. And Satan was there when those wounds and that. Those, that early exposure to pornography happened when that. When all those things happen to that person, Satan's there and he's watching and laughing and he's ready to. To prod and push that person into moral failure. And when that moral failure happens, we shoot our wounded in the church. And that is a tragedy. That is a tragedy. And so what we need to do is we need to equip. Equip seminarians, we need to equip our young ministers and ministry leaders in the church and help them go through a process so that they understand this issue well. And if they are dealing with it themselves, then they need help rather than being fired. And they need to be supported and taken through a real process. Because every time I've seen this over and over again, again, Nick, you're a prime example of this, right? That when we go through our own healing journey, we can't help but give it back. And so I've. I see this over and over again where ministers and pastors who go through a real process, not a facade, not a window dressing, but go through real journey through healing and change and restoration. They go on fire, right? And so, unfortunately, I was just recently at a speaking at a conference, and a pastor came to me and said, hey, Sam, I, I really got it. I'm really glad you're here. I, I want you to know I personally pushed for you to be here. And because I'm supposed to be retired now, but the pastor that they sent to join me and co pastor our church until he could take over, it turned out that he was struggling with pornography. Coffee. So we found him unfit. So he's out. And now we're looking for another. Same day I was speaking to another district leader of that denomination and he says, you know, I went into the church and took over because it was discovered that the senior pastor was struggling, so we disqualified him. And then after I was there a little while, well, the youth pastor, it seemed like he had a struggle too. And the assistant pastor, so they were out as well.

Jeez, you know, pretty soon there's no one left.

Yeah, right. Pretty soon there's no one left. How do you, you can't keep shooting the wounded. We have to create meaningful restoration. I donate dedicate two chapters to how pornography impacts those ministry and, and talking about restoration, I believe that real process, real change happens for people who, who, who bear into it. And there's example after example of that happening in the book where we need to stop shooting our wounded and start taking them through a process and a journey to true freedom and healing in Christ that can't help but be given away.

Okay, so let's look a little bit practically I'm thinking, you know, and maybe because I know we've talked about maybe some issues already that would bring to this situation or bring churches to the situation, but many churches and leaders feel like they're already talking about pornography. Like I already bring it up in sermons. You know, we have that arbitrary one, maybe, you know, someone come and share a story. Once a year we do a series on sex, that sort of thing. How might there be a disconnect between what they're preaching and really what the average person who's sitting in the pew.

Is experiencing Often and maybe too often in the church, what we hear is what can be contained in that 20 minute sermon or 30 minutes on a Sunday morning. And there's only so much you can cover. And I have found in attending many men's retreats and things of that nature that it often is typically a warning. And warnings are good. Good. Paul warns us very clearly that about when we commit sexual idolatry, we're impacting our whole selves, our spirit, our mind, body and spirit. And he warns us this is very dangerous. Right. But the warning that comes though it's very good isn't so effective. We often call it the purity sermon in church. And purity sermons often don't help very much because the men that are in the church already know they're supposed to be pure. The women in church already know they're supposed to be pure. The teenager, they know that they should. They're missing the key components to taking a journey. You know, I was just. Hold on.

He's gonna reach back and grab his rifle.

That's awesome.

There's this great book called safe.

Oh, look at that plug in your book, Nick.

Wow. I'm just super impressed. He had it right on the shelf behind him.

What if he just was like, hey, I'm going to record with Nick. I should probably set this back here.

Where's that book? He actually went into his attic. Had to dig into a box.

Oh, wow.

So, Nick, you talk about that we have these transformational words or formational words that we like to have, or process words. I should say that we like to just have one. And done. We are saved. We're sanctified. We are cleansed. It's done. We don't talk about the sanctification process enough in the church to understand that. And what does that really look like? We give some lip service to that. We talk about discipling one another, but what does that really look like? And so I love this. This phrase you hear, and it's been underlined for a long time. It says, truth be told, in our churches, we want people who are processed and mature already. The reality is that most of us, maybe all of us, are still in process and becoming mature. Grace always has a messy side because there isn't a mess. We don't need grace. Well, when men and women, they feel that shame and condemnation from the warning in the purity sermon, but they don't know what to do. We've created a cage of our own making. We've reached through. We built it block by block and bar by bar. We reached through the door, we locked the cage and threw away the key. Nobody keeps the key. And without a safe place and a safe process to really understand why do I do what I do when I say that I don't want to do it anymore and hate myself for doing it again? And if you can't walk me through that, then I will stay inside my little cage wearing a hole in the center of the floor, getting deeper and deeper. Keeper. And I needed somebody to come in, bring the key with them, unlock the door, and show me how to walk out. Because left to my own devices, I would run back into what was familiar. When my persistence, my I love Jesus, it. It crushed me when I came back, when I came to the, the church that I'm at now now and rededicated my life to God. There's one sticking point that I just couldn't seem to get out and that was pornography. And I would plead and I would beg, God, please take this away from me. I hate this. I hate, I hate me. Right when I began a journey with others to understand why I was doing what I was doing and how shame was helping, keeping me stuck and how secrecy was helping to keep me stuck, then it empowered me to make different choices. I got to be able to sit in my emotions, not have to self soothe of my mood or just to feel normal. There could be real life and restoration coming into that, but it came through a safe place and a safe process that led to ongoing change because it didn't happen overnight.

Yeah, I just echo all that. And by the way, I think you are the first guest on our podcast to ever quote me. So, you know, kudos to you on that. The check is in the mail. Appreciate that. Yeah, I've been doing recovery work, you know, for about 13 years and I have never one time. And I'm not exaggerating, I sincerely have never heard one single Christian say to me. I just didn't realize how bad it was that it was. I didn't realize it was wrong. I didn't know I was objectifying women. I didn't know that this disrespected women or offended God's heart. Like every single person is like, yep, and what do I do about it? Because I kept going back and that's why I felt so horrible or shameful or no, I have had some people that haven't sincerely tried to stop or just haven't been motivated enough to care, but even those people would acknowledge, yeah, I knew it was bad for me. I knew it was wrong. I knew it wasn't what God wanted of my life. And yet if that's all we hear in preaching, it's actually just doubling down on the shame people are already feeling and laying a heavy burden on them that they don't know what to do about. And I've even said in a couple places, it's like, if that's all you're going to do, it'd be better if you didn't preach on it at all because it's just going to increase shame. Unless you're going to lead people towards, here's some ideas, here's someone that can help, here's a ministry, here's a book, you know, here's. Here's direction to actually do something. The other thing that comes to mind for me on this question is I think when leaders do talk about pornography especially, they tend to indicate a kind of porn that is maybe still images or Playboy magazine or even, you know, if it's video, it's kind of normal people having sex. And yet the reality increasingly in our world is those who are stuck in addictive behavior are going to more and more extreme places. And that's what I have found in just about everybody's story is when they feel the shame of this, it's not just because they were looking at a still image. It's because there's a piece of their story in particular that even as the pastor's preaching about it, something inside of them is saying, yeah, but if they knew the kind of stuff you looked at, if they knew the kind of things that turn you on, if they knew the kind of places you've been, because they're just talking about normal people and you don't really have yours is. And what I find amazing about that, again, I think it's one of the traps Satan lays, because I have heard that same story from all kinds of different people who all have a part of their story that's a little different, a little unique, a little outside the norm. And because of that, whatever a pastor is saying, they're like, well, yeah, but you don't know the truth of my story. And so I think we've just got to be really aware when we do talk about pornography, we not assume that everyone's just kind of got this normal, lustful, you know, desire for attractive women. And it's all the same because it's such a spectrum. And I think we've got to try to communicate in a way that we're aware. You may have someone there that is just struggling on one end of the spectrum with just a little bit of fantasy and lust. And then the other end of the spectrum of some of the most off the charts fetish type bizarre things that we haven't even thought of, but it's out there and they got hooked into it and everything in between and just making sure, very clear in a way of saying God's grace. And our offer for help applies to you no matter where you are on this huge, vast spectrum of brokenness.

Yeah. I think two other things that I think are really important in this is that oftentimes it's male oriented language and we miss the females who are struggling with that. That's a huge thing. You're immediately doubling down on the shame. If you're not using both genders. And then another thing, too. I think that in my experience, the most effective preachers and teachers of God's word are also aware of what's going on in culture. They're aware of the world that people are living in, and they are able to give that cultural commentary. You know, two guys come to mind. John Mark Comer, who's a local guy who I think is excellent, but even Timothy Keller over in New York. I just. I feel like he was always aware of what was going on. And I was thinking about this earlier that Ephesians 4. If the whole point of church ministry is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, and you know that pornography is one of the predominantly. It's one of the most predominant things that's keeping people from using their gifts and doing ministry, then you're not doing your.

This.

Shots fired. Here it comes. You're not doing your job well unless you're helping people get rid of those blockages that are in the way of them doing ministry. I'm just gonna shrink back in my chair a little bit because I don't know if I'm gonna offend anybody, but I feel strongly about that.

The email is Trevor Wuredesign.

Actually, that's wrong. So go ahead.

I was helping you out. Yeah.

No, but I really do. I feel, like, undeliverable. I feel like that is just something that we need to emphasize in the church, that we need to understand that our job is to help people in their sanctification so that they can do the work of ministry. They can follow the Lord and use their gifts to help other people come to know him and grow in their sanctification? And if pornography is the thing that's in the way, why wouldn't we want to help our people get that out of the way, restore their marriages and their families and really allow them for maybe the first time in their life, to walk in who God has created them to be and to use their gifts. All right, let's pray because the sermon's over.

So, Sam, I know you guys have used a stat that we've talked about a lot as well. That research done by Barna and you guys helped Commission back in 2016 suggested that only 7% of all churches had a specific plan to help people in their church in this area of pornography and sexual brokenness. And so with that number, it's almost one. We'd say, well, that can't be true, except Barna did it, and Barna knows what they're doing and it's in there. So it must be true. In light of that, why is it that churches struggle so much to create the safe place and the safe process that you're talking about? When people admit they need help and they actually want to get help, why do churches struggle to create that pathway? Pathway.

That question could take up this entire hour. Right?

For sure.

We could just keep going. I think one, just one thing and that's one of the reasons I, I wrote the book in such an empathetic way is that I can sort of get where many pastors and leaders come from who have never struggled with pornography because the desire for pornography for me today feels far, it feels icky. It feels like that's just a trap. I don't want to go in there. I'm not. That's going to do nothing for me. What am I going to get out of that? And I don't see that at any means of pride. And I, I, I, I'm, I'm in my, my every meeting every week with, with little Samson brothers and etc. I protect check but, but I get where some pastors can come from of just stop that. Quit that. God's not for that. Why would you do that? Does it. That doesn't make any sense. Why are you doing that? And at the same time many will get, oh yeah, I get the idea of, of lust. You know, I've seen someone I thought was beautiful and I've had to advert my eyes or something like that because I, you know, maybe I was looking too long. You know, there's sometimes a true disconnect in the church where they don't really understand the prison that's created the stronghold that has taken over mind, body and spirit in someone's life. And so really understanding that, that, that underlying issue is just so vital for a ministry leader. So I think that's, that's part of it. We look at our, our larger culture and we think, well, if people just love Jesus more or if they just studied their Bible more or if they were just more, attend the church more. If they did these things more. And so if we have the, this program or this exciting event or if we make people feel welcome, all these other things where we're not really pressing into this need. Well, there's so many other things that garner our attention and attraction within the church. And let's keep in mind the poor pastor, he's been, I talked to a pastor, he had been bawled out by one of the ladies in his church for saying the word prostitute while he was preaching about Rahab. Now gosh, there's no getting around that.

That's what the Bible calls her.

Literally the word in there, it's the scripture, right?

And so he was reading from scripture and he goes sam, if I get bald out for that, how do I respond? And my answer was well, you need to grow up. That's. But the pastor has a difficult time saying that. But I think it's in even more important too that when we with a the primer and understanding of, of the deeper impact of pornography on the individual, then we have a deeper understanding of why there needs to be a safe place and a safe process to find freedom. That the warning isn't enough. I'm all for spiritual disciplines, I think it's imperative. But I have talked to many men and women who said I thought if I read more and prayed more that I could just get out of this. And until I really stepped into a process that held me in place long enough for Christ to do his work in my life, for the Holy Spirit to create that change in my life. And I think that's what's missing is we think that, well I've told them what to do and if they go do it, that's fine. But the problem is in our own willful desire with the stronghold that was in our life life, we want to run back. We lean on our own understanding instead of Christ's understanding and we enter back into behaviors that lead to more destruction. And so that's what a pat. You know, pastors don't often realize that I need to lead a culture in my church that changes how we talk about pornography and other habits and hang ups and addictions and recognize that hey, we have something for you here. We love you where you're at, but we love you too much. Maybe the same. And if you will be willing to join us because you can only lead the willing into a safe process, then we can take you where you're not running back constantly to self soothing behavior or whatever it is so that again being held in place long enough for real change to happen.

Yeah, I think a lot of this too comes from an unrealistic expectation for a pastor to be the expert in every area, you know, and you can go to even the lack of education that you talked about in seminaries, Bible colleges, like, I mean I just graduated in August of last year. I did not receive any training whatsoever on sexual integrity, how to help people with that process, how to manage my own. And that's not a knock on seminaries, they do a great job. I think that's just a missing piece. I think also this expectation that pastors need to lead everything, that they have to be in charge or be the one pushing everything. And, like, that's also not true. And then we've talked about it already in your quote. It's funny, the quote from that you quoted from Nick's book, that idea of the messy nature of it is just something that's really hard to measure. And I think sometimes out of fear of seeming like we're failing or not meeting expectations or not succeeding as a church church, let's just not mess with the messy things because then I'm not able to say, oh, yes, 100%, what we're doing is working or whatever. It's just. It's hard to be in that in between of the. In process. And I think those things cater to why it's so difficult for churches to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. When I was a young pastor, I waited a long time before we started some financial classes for people, partly because I felt like I don't have financial issues. It's not that hard. Just don't spend more than you make. You know, credit card debt's dumb. Everyone knows that. They can figure it out. Plus, it seemed like a lot of work and time, and I just didn't feel like it was my area of expertise and I had too much I was doing already, so I just kept kicking that can down the road. And I wonder if there aren't a lot of leaders that feel similar ways about pornography and these struggles. If it hasn't been that big of an issue in their life. It's like, well, just don't look at it like I did, and if you are having a problem, stop, and I've got too much to do anyway, and so why engage in this? And then even more so, you know. You know, if we did have huge financial problems, if you're hugely in debt, well, you're not going to run a financial class. You're like, well, who am I to start this? Or, you know, it might expose my own hypocrisy about money. Well, yeah. And then even more so if it is an unaddressed struggle for a pastor in their sexuality, they don't feel like they've got anything to say and they feel it's hypocritical to start something when they know they need it for themselves first. So I think either side of it, the pastor's kind of in this double bind that if it's not My issue, I'm not passionate enough about it to start. And if it is my issue, I probably don't want to go there for a lot of personal reasons. So it's, it's. I think you put all that together, it's like, well, there's probably a lot of reasons. This is a hard, this is a hard place for pastors to lean into.

Remember, one things you said earlier struck a nerve with me. And that's. And it's in the book and it talks about the pastor who says, I've got to do this. I've got all this other work to do. How am I supposed to do this too? What we found in the churches that are doing this. Well, over and over and over again, pastor's not doing the work. He is. He isn't. He's not just saying, okay, you guys, you guys just go ahead and do that over there. No, he is like, I'm interested in this work. This is important. I want to make sure that our church knows about it. I'm going to equip you guys, men, women, etc, for these groups and really address pornography and unwanted sexual behaviors. Well, we're going to do that. You have my, not just my backing. I am pressing in with you. However, he's not doing the work, and that pastor is not doing the work. And so over and over again, what I found was pastors would say, I, they took stuff off my plate. They didn't add to my plate.

Amen.

Once I had people going through a real process, being discipled, guess what I got? I got more disciples. And those disciples led other disciples and they would lead the other courses, the, the, the marriage class and other classes, and they were giving back to the church instead of seeking and trying to coerce other people into volunteering in the church just because they had that discipleship plan, restoring people from pornography and other, other things, like there's other struggles, et cetera, as well. They were recruiting and creating disciples that led others.

Absolutely. Which is what we want at the end of the day in any area of our church. Okay, so let's kind of take a turn. We've kind of looked at the. How things are not going so great in churches, but let's kind of turn the corner here. How would you encourage churches to get it right when it comes to pornography and the effects it's having on their community?

Well, I think it comes back to that grassroots understanding of it, and that was the main purpose or the first portion of the book is to provide that primer so that ministry Leaders understand how people are getting stuck, why they often stay stuck without help, and how we can real restoration. But also so you don't have to start in this huge first step. I feel for this pastor that stood up one Sunday morning and he said, hey, we've got this new study we're wanting to do on pornography. All the guys who would like to sign up for it just hit that table in the back. There's a little sign up sheet.

Yeah. Gosh.

Yep. Guess what? It was empty. Yeah.

So I guess nobody needs this.

Yeah, I guess my church doesn't struggle. Yeah.

And so how. Some ways that you can begin introducing this issue within the church. You know, one of the easiest ways to do this is to begin equipping parents and grandparents on the impact of pornography. Because when you do that and, and you help, they'll come to that like they want some expertise and some technology. They want. But you can give them the grassroots of. Did you know that early exposure and how early exposure is in creating the building blocks for behaviors that can last a lifetime. And the men that are in that session, the women that are in that session who are struggling now, they can have understanding of why I got here, how did I get here, why do I stay stuck. And with that understanding they can begin leaning, they begin feeling acceptance. And that is your. Can be a first step in creating a safe place. Because once people are. We begin removing the stigma, then. Yeah, from around it.

Yes.

Then we can begin leaning more deeply into it. There's a friend of ours, Nick, Pastor James Reeves, and he wrote a manual for his church, a workbook for his church called Life Change for every Christian. And every, almost everybody who comes into his church would go through this life change for every Christian and they would get to dive into understanding themselves and the simple behaviors in their life and that might have been or. And the self soothing behaviors, the trauma that they endured. All these things were the sort of understanding that, hey, I look, I, I do have some wounds and I can be honest about it here with other people. Look at the safe place. People are talking about how they. The dozen donuts from Krispy Kreme on their way home from work. They're talking about, about the, the anger that they have in, in their marriage and then other things that are coming out like pornography, et cetera. And they can find safety in that small space that breaks out into other groups that can dive more deeply into something using. Okay, I'm gonna do another pitch. Seven Pillars. I've got a book that's just about worn out over here. You know, we, these are tools that are readily available that we can use. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. And pastor, if you're listening, you're not the first one to have to do this work. And so we have examples in, in whether it's the book safe or the examples in the healing Church of how other churches are doing this work. Well, under what, what's, what small steps could I begin to take if my church church really doesn't, has never addressed these kinds of topics before? How can I take those small steps to lead from where I am now? Even though I think the healing church job of that we're really going to break that down as a follow up piece to the healing church as well.

Yeah, yeah. We just echo here so much of what you said that you've got to normalize the conversation. You've got to equip people with information and I think inviting people to do something for someone else, you know, because when you make it for them, that feels shameful or guilt ridden. But when it's about your kids or helping our community or helping other men, it's like, oh well, I could do that. And so all those strategies we've also seen to be very effective. And I'm just so thankful that that will be echoed and really brought to some clarity in the book because those are really great starting points. Sam, let's go to this side of the question because for many of our listeners, they're in churches and this is what they are wanting, this is what they're praying for. They're asking God to make it a part of their church's ministry. But they're not the pastor, they're not the leader. And so what would you say to that person who's not on staff? What could they do to help move their church towards being a safe and healing church in this area?

Yeah, I think this falls into a good follow up on the last question. I think when we look at safety, it often comes on a spectrum in the church. Church on one side of the of the spectrum is a church that is super safe, come as you are, but there is no call to change. And on the other side of the spectrum is a, is a church where it is not okay to have problems you cannot have. You're either a Christian or you're out. You don't have to struggle anymore. And it's not safe to be be real about the issues that you're facing. But somewhere in the center there is, it's okay to come as you are, but it's not okay to stay as you are and you are welcomed into an environment where you can begin pressing in to the healing that God has for you. I would have to say that, that we, that if, if you feel like I, I don't have any experience, I don't know where I'm going on this journey, I, but I'd really love to find some freedom, then there is likely that I, you know, I, I have this struggle with saying that all a church is totally unsafe. There's probably someone in your church church that you can talk to. But shame, shame is keeping you in hiding and so you're not possibly truly pressing in to someone who is willing to be safe because of how shame is debilitating your willingness to be open. But there, there are some other. If you, if truly you are in an unsafe church church, there are resources that are available, whether it's a pure desire, groups that are online. SamsonSociety.com provide is a community of Christian men. She Recovery.com is a community for Christian women who are, are willing to press in and be open and honest. And once you have developed some freedom in your own life, once you've really leaned in and done some study and begin, I would encourage you to go through a real process, whether it's seven pillars or another one. Then every process that's worth its salt always says to give back. That having received freedom, you don't keep what you've received, you give it away. And the more you give it away, the more freedom you find for your, your in your own life. Now I, I don't, I don't encourage this lightly. What I would discourage is for someone to say, well I've, I've been free from pornography for a month or 90 days and now I'm ready to come out in my church, have this big confession time in front of the whole church and say this is what God has told me to do. You really need to lean in the process and be humble about where you're, where you're at and the journey that you need to take. But if you're, if you have been through a journey, then it's important that you can begin giving back back to others in your church. Maybe you are still in the struggle, but you've been honest with a few other guys and they say, you know, I'm struggling too. Great. Then you've just created a small group who can begin walking a process. Right? There are plenty of great resources. I keep saying seven pillars because I just love Love it. But that is an example of you've got all the resources right there in front of you. You can read them together, process these things together and talk about what you're learning together. And then from that small community, you can begin creating change in your local church where, because let's be honest, honest, that one guy or one woman who's struggling in their church, they aren't the only ones. There are others who are pretending, there are others who are getting ready to leave the church. And so I would encourage you to lean in totally.

And I think the two things that really stand out, Sam, are sharing your story because you said, you know, there is probably a safe person in your church. If you share your story about your struggle and about your recovery journey, it makes you that safe person for other people to come to. And out of that, like, it's probably not a great term, but like guerrilla ministry, like guerrilla warfare, you just kind of start a group. Like, you don't need to have your pastor's approval to start a small group going through seven pillars or unraveled or something like that. So, yeah, definitely some good stuff.

Yeah.

Well, the quote from that great book that Sam mentioned, safe. Oh my gosh, here we go. One of the things that I just really became convinced of as we did this in our church was we'll never be a safe church unless we're a church made up of safe people.

People.

It doesn't matter what's happening up front. I mean, it does matter. But like a pastor can say and do a lot of things from up front. But if the people within the community haven't learned to be grace based, safe people, it's just kind of falling on deaf ears. And so I would say that if you're not yet hearing it from your pulpit, if you don't feel like your pastor or pastors are leading the way in this, just to continue to look at what am I doing to be that safe person? Like Sam is saying, how have I processed my story? How am I inviting others to be real with me in situations I'm in, whether it's a Bible study, a small group, just one on one with another person for coffee. If God is increasingly doing a good work in my life of creating humility and vulnerability, I become safe for others. And I think safe people can't help but multiply themselves. And so it's kind of that old quip too, of become the change you want to see in the world. If you want a safe church, take a real hard look in the mirror and Ask am I a safe person? And if I'm a safe person, God, how can you use my vulnerability, my safety to help someone else move towards that as well? And over time, God will just continue to multiply that.

All right, Sam, let's get into this. We have pastors, church leaders. That's who this book is for. Here's your like, I mean, sales pitch your way away with this one. But why should pastors and church leaders buy your book?

Again, I made as a I, I spent 18 years as a journalist before I joined the Covenant Ice Team and what God has gifted me with the ability to take complex topics and break them down to a simple understanding in a short sphere of time. And so when you're reading through the healing church, it is leading you through a journey of understanding and growth that you can cop, you can pull together individual pieces. You probably probably got a dozen or more sermons out of each chapter that you, you can pull. But the whole purpose again is to equip you pastor so that there are so many books out there that are geared toward helping a man or a woman find freedom, etc and it tells their story and, and creates lots of, of of text to read. But this is made simple. It's made so that you quickly understand why are people struggling so hard and what can I do to create a healing church where people can truly find freedom and how can I take those incremental steps to create culture, create change in my church? How can I lead and do this work? Well, I've outlined those using some of the very best ministry leaders in this sphere. From Pure Desire to Hope Quest to many other counselors, coaches, pastors. You get to learn from what others have already been doing. Well, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So as I mentioned, I've gotten to read the book. I got to endorse the book. I highly recommend it. Sam, tell us where people can get the book especially maybe they're not a pastor and they'd like to buy it to give to their children church or also to read for themselves. And then I know also you want to make a special offer available on the book for pastors. So let us know what that is as well.

That's right. So one of the cool things is you can download the just get guess do I really want this book? You can go and download the introduction and the first chapter from thehealingchurch.com thehealingchurch.com but you can buy the book wherever you normally buy books online, online and so. Or any major bookstore. So that's where you can buy the book. And today we're giving away 50 copies for free to the pastors who. Who click a link that we're going to provide. And when they click that Link, the first 50 pastors who re fill out a short form, we're going to ship you a copy of the book. Book. That simple.

Yeah. So pretty exciting and very generous offer if you're a pastor. If you're a church leader and you want the book, go to the link. It'll be in the show notes. And Sam and Covenant Eyes want to get this book in your hands because it's that valuable. It's information that we know is needed and would just really highly encourage you to do that. I mean, who doesn't love to get a free book? And also, it's a little reward for those who are active listeners to the podcast, because if you're listening in the week this comes out, it'll probably be available. And then, you know, when those 50 books are given away, you know, then you just have to go to Amazon like the rest of us.

Totally. Sam, man, thank you so much for the work that you're doing at Covenant Eyes, the work that you did with this book. I know it's going to help so many people. And just thanks for your time today, man. We definitely believe that if we can address porn the right way in the church, so much healing, so much fruit is going to come from it. So thanks for all your work, man. Appreciate it.

Nick, thank you so much. It's always an honor to be with you guys. And thank you for the work of Pure Desire.

Yeah, thanks, man. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with us others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube. And lastly, never stop being healthy.