313 - From Co-Addict Model To A Partner-Sensitive Approach

We've talked about this before, not as specifically as we have in this one. So let's talk about the episode a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. We really wanted to dig into the new material and give it a more thorough treatment of what's different, what's changed, understanding the difference between the models. And there's many attempts that we make at recovery, and we can have varying levels of success or ways we feel like we connect with it. And I think there's an opportunity here with the new approach, the partner sensitive model in the Betrayal and Beyond workbook, that it can feel in some ways like the first try. And maybe there have been a lot of other efforts, but it's like, wow, this time was different, this time was new, this time connected and worked in a way that many other attempts hadn't. And it has some of that first try feeling. And so that's the connect to Lego Batman. And as Ashley joked about, it's kind of the super host episode. Great to have Heather and Ashley on talking about it, because really, this scenario where they're experts, they've walked this road in the old material, the new material, they've heard from hundreds of women and had these conversations over and over. And so I just think, listener, this perspective is so needed. And if you're a guy listening to this episode, I think it's helpful for us, too, because we need to understand if we've been betrayed, what we may be going through. And there is a men's corollary material, but also if we're the struggler, if we're the addict, if we're the one that's caused a lot of that pain, I think it can give us some fresh perspective on what our spouse is walking through, what they're learning, what they need to learn, and hopefully give us a posture of support and really encouragement towards our spouse who's maybe learning some new things that might make us uncomfortable. But frankly, in this area, we need that level of uncomfortable to create change in us and in our relationship.

Totally. Okay. So it makes total sense. And there's no reason why we wouldn't really push and promote Betrayal and Beyond right now, right here, because it is something that we've put a lot of time and energy into and continue to have conversations on why the change and the improvement that it's made. And so, yeah, just describe maybe the Betrayal and Beyond group experience for a betrayed woman who really needs it.

Yeah. Well, we're here to help men and women heal the struggler or addict and the spouse and betrayal and beyond Is that women's betrayal material that we know is necessary. And so if you've not been through it, encourage churches to grab it, encourage women to go through it. It's a necessary component of recovery. This isn't a man's problem. This is impacting the couple. This is impacting the betrayed spouse. And we're just glad that there's a resource available. It's available digital and in hard copy. And now it also has a great video series done by Heather to kind of walk through each lesson to help group leaders and group members for both understand this journey better. And so if you've not had that before, that's an added bonus that I'd highly recommend women check out.

Yeah, absolutely. So if you want more information or you want to grab your copy of Betrayal and Beyond, just go to puredesire.org betrayal couple other housekeeping things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. We're on Spotify, Spotify, Audible, Google Play. Really the best one, itunes. Don't hate me for that, but subscribe to it. Leave us a review as well that also helps other people find the show. And you can follow us on social media. Your desirepdmi. All right, with that, here's our time with Ashley Jamison and Heather Kolb on our shift from a co addict model to a partner sensitive approach to healing from betrayal. All right, Ashley and Heather, welcome back to the podcast. I shouldn't even honestly intro either of you. You guys are here all the time. But we do like seeing you, so thanks for being here.

Well, and they just did a whole month of podcasts, so they're pretty well known very recently.

You sure did. You took the whole thing over.

Yes. But thank you for being here.

So this is like the super host episode.

Oh, I like that.

I haven't even thought of that.

I like that too.

Oh, gosh. Like, I'm thinking Marvel, like Captain Civil War action or are we talking like a teammate?

We could start putting like little asterisks next to these episodes. Like, and then at the bottom, you know, it's a super host episod.

Super host, honestly. Okay. You know, I. I'm probably gonna do something with that. Okay. Okay. So even though. And we're just talking about this too. It's funny. It's probably already on the recording, but people won't get to hear it. But we just had a conversation. Even right now that we have talked about this topic before. We have talked about the coatic model versus a partner sensitive approach, but we haven't done one specifically on what this shift has done with our new Betrayal and Beyond Resource. And so to have both of you with us, who were the primary authors working on the work of Diane Roberts, it just, it felt like a good time to have this conversation. And I know, Ashley, you get a lot of questions still, you and the group's team, about what the changes are with bnb. And so, yeah, we just wanted to get into it, talk about the new version. And I think Nick was going to start us off with really kind of a buffer question as we get into it.

Yeah. So let's jump in, Heather, for listeners that might be newer to this topic or are still trying to kind of understand terms that, you know, quite frankly, you don't hear in everyday life, but in the recovery community do get thrown around. Talk us through what is the co addiction model and what would we call a partner sensitive model and what are the differences? Give us kind of an overview of these two approaches to recovery.

So historically, when you had somebody who was struggling with sex addiction or compulsive sexual behaviors, it was determined that that person's spouse was in some regard also struggling with addictive behaviors, because why else would she be with somebody who was addicted? And so there was a lot of the language and even the model that said that you struggle too, and that's why you're with this person. And so our approach to healing for both of you is going to be identical. So you're going to the one who struggles is going to look at past pain, past trauma, family of origin issues, a lot of those things. And as the partner, because you also have addictive behaviors, then that model is going to look the same. So you're going to look at your past trauma that your past pain, that your family of origin, because really that has a lot to do with the relationship and with your healing. So that was historically the old model. In recent years, it has come up that, you know what, this really isn't the best model because to some extent you're then blaming the partner for the addict's behaviors, and that's not right. And so that's when a lot of Dr. Barbara Steffen's work, that her work on a partner sensitive approach as well as a trauma informed approach, those are kind of fused together, which then says that to the partner that you know what you're healing from the trauma that's being created because you're in a relationship with somebody who struggles that that trauma. We need to look at that first. That that really is, is the Reason why you're struggling the way that you're struggling, the reason why you're having these symptoms that. That really are symptoms related to trauma, not because you're an addict, but because you also are. Because you're living with an addict. Those are kind of the key differences.

Yeah. And early in my recovery journey with John, I realized and was told and know about myself that I can be very controlling. But in the context of. And that control that. That control issue comes from my childhood, my family of origin. But really, when it comes down to it, it's really about seeking safety. So, yes, I have behaviors that can slide easily into controlling behaviors. But even as a child, I was seeking safety if somebody forgot to pick me up from school. So then as an adult, I may be, you know, asking or controlling a situation because of that fear that I might be left alone. And so that is. That is a legitimate thing that I wrestle with and I've worked on and I'm aware of. But in the context of a betrayal in my relationship, it's completely different. We shouldn't be starting off talking about, you know, my control issues. Those can be later for a marriage session, after we're through the betrayal. But that fracture in our relationship, attachment in our relationship, like that injury that brought us to finding help, that is not about my childhood control issues. Anything I'm doing in my marriage is really seeking safety. Because my marriage and my most vulnerable partner that I have on earth, you know, my most intimate partner I have on earth, has betrayed me and cut me deeply. And so I'm looking for safety. And if we want to look at John's history, you know, he had already been stuck in his sexual addiction for 20 years before even knowing me, so that my control issues didn't cause his addiction. And I think that separation of trying to tie all of our. The spouse's childhood issues to the relationship is not appropriate when they're there. Healing from a betrayal, that is for later. Or if a couple is just trying to figure out how to integrate their two lives and how they relate to each other.

Yeah, I think there really was a value to the coaddict model in that it really helped people see that the marriage was impacted, that both people were being impacted, and as a couple, needed to figure out recovery. So that model did, I think, create some awareness that maybe wasn't there before, but on the real downside or a drawback to it is it really processed the whole experience through the lens of the addiction and the struggler and what they were going through. And treated the spouse kind of as a subsidiary to the whole story. And it was like, well, yeah, you're along for the ride, and so we need to address your issues too. But it didn't allow them to have their own story. And that's what I think is so powerful about the partner sensitive approach and being trauma informed is it recognizes you have two people that are having two very different experiences and really need two very different things in the process. And in the end, would all of us benefit from understanding our family of origin? Would all of us benefit from knowing what's wounded us and how it drives our thoughts, emotions, behaviors? Yes, absolutely. But in the recovery journey, the timing and the spacing and what is needed in the moments of crisis and discovery and early attempts to repair trust and intimacy are really very, very different. And so I think the partner sensitive approach takes that into account and is why it's called. It's partner sensitive. That they have their own needs, their own challenges, and they're very different from what the addict is going through. But in the end, the goal, I think, is still coupleship, that we're trying to reestab that, when possible, can help this relationship grow and find successful footing again.

Totally. So this wasn't a small shift for us specifically with this change to betrayal and beyond. And so what was the catalyst for changing and updating it? And just what was the motivation? Because again, this was not a small little tweak. This was an overhaul of a model. So what was the motivation behind that?

We always listen to our people. So, you know, we understand that every resource isn't going to reach every single person, but there's a small percentage of people that won't apply to. They don't like it. We know that we can't be everything for everybody, but overall, the resources that we create, we tend to hear consistent, good feedback and see consistent results out of that. And so I've been over the women's groups for around eight years now, and I'd say about five years ago, started to get more and more feedback that women were pushing against anything codependent. They didn't want to be blamed for their spouse's addiction. And, you know, of course, me being, like, so opinionated and that's how I found my healing. And everything was like, oh, well, she must be codependent, you know, you know, like, not seeing it. But the more I kept seeing people push against it and started researching myself through my own experiences of, like, I feel like there's still part of this betrayal. I haven't healed yet. There's still some issues here that I'm struggling with. I started to put it together, and so then I just started making lists and of all the feedback. And I. I mean, Heather and I had four pages of. Just filled with feedback from people. And so we don't see that unless there really is something to look at and something to update. And so digging into the research, attending the ABSATS training, devouring the new research on betrayal trauma, they just. We just saw that there was a lot more out there. Some of our information in our old Betrayal and Beyond book is. Is really coming out of the addict research. And now we have newer research that's specific about the betrayed spouse and what they're going through and that there's physical ramifications to. To going through this. And it just opened our eyes that, okay, there's new research. And so with new research and new information, we need to keep updating our resources.

And we had a lot of people who gave us feedback, a lot of women who had not just gone through the resource one time, but group leaders who had gone through it over and over and were getting feedback from the women in their group. And Even in those 40 pages of feedback that we had, you could easily go through that. And it's a lot of different voices, but it had a lot of the same information. And so that, I think, really helped us to identify where are the pieces that we need to reframe in the new bnb, and then what are the other pieces that maybe should not be part of this resource? And that they are really a different phase of healing than what women need right up front.

Yeah. And I know change is always hard. And so for some of our fans who went through Betrayal and Beyond, they're like, oh, why are they changing things? But there's also reality that when we're coming into healing and recovery for the first time, we don't know what we don't know. Like, we don't know any other way. And so we just follow the workbook that's given to us. And I have had, you know, heard from many women that said, well, it was a good experience. And then when you bring up some of the pieces that were changing, like, well, yeah, that was awkward or hard or I didn't really understand it. But they're trying to follow a proven pathway, and it's like, we just did it. And in the end, they say, man, it was all really great in the end. But then when they started to hear some of those changes, like, oh, this does make More sense. And so talk with us a little bit about that. What would you say are the biggest changes to the Betrayal and Beyond and why was it so needed?

So I can think of just a couple things right off the top of my head that were big changes. One of them was the layout or the way that we presented the information in the old Betrayal and Beyond. It seems like a lot of the information up front, even through maybe the first six chapters, were really focused on his addiction and things that the partner should know, which there is a place for that. But I remember being in group with women, and we're six weeks or eight weeks into it, and they're angry. They're like, you know, what the last 13 years has been about him, and I'm done talking about him, and when is this going to start really helping me? And so even just getting that kind of feedback was really good. So in the chapter arrangement, we have at least the first four chapters that are all. All about her, you know, about her emotional health, about stabilization, safety, boundaries, all those things. And then we do include the psychoeducation piece because she does need to understand the basis for her spouse's addictive behavior, but it comes later. And then again, probably the bigger change was taking out anything that was related to past trauma, family of origin issues, even being very intentional about the language that we use and the way that we frame different conversations just based on the feedback that we got that was so triggering. Even certain words like applying recovery, that language to partners, we got pushback for that.

Yeah. And I am about to wrap up my Betrayal and beyond group that I'm leading the new version. And so I've been able to see through my own group and the leaders that I oversee, you know, our first year of having this out. And one fear that people had was, well, if you remove the family of origin content or push the addicts up to the end, these women, it's just going to give women an excuse to be angry and not have to focus on their own issues. And I am not seeing in our groups, I'm seeing that they're still able to have empathy for their spouse, and they're still applying things to their family of origin. Because when we take them through trauma that's happening in their relationship, I'll hear, oh, you know, this. This actually was a problem even when I was younger. I remember the same. So they're able to connect the dots, even though we're not directly asking them those things. And. And there's been plenty of empathy. I think it's giving them. It's giving them space to. To. To feel validated. Because when we start off with content that is heavy on the addict side and learning about the addict and we're not teaching them enough about what's going on in their own minds and bodies, then they think the way that they're reacting is normal. And so I remember the first time I went through vitromion and I cried because my anger test was really high. And it was like, you need counseling. Which, yes, okay, I know that. But I thought it was. I thought it was another, like, monster that I was going to have to tackle on top of the betrayal instead of understanding that that anger is actually very normal. Like, my brain is in chaos right now. And so that was nice to be able to go through, helping them understand this is really impacting your mind, body, and your thinking ability and everything. And then we went through the anger, and they're able to say, okay, this makes sense because I've been traumatized. And so I just think the order is a little slower so that we can help them understand themselves before going into understanding their spouse.

I think one of. And this is sort of an answer to both the first question or the second question and third question. But, like, one of my favorite things about pure desire, and it's been here since, like, in my experience, in my six years here, is that pure desire has a level of humility when it comes to what we put in our resources. We're not just, like, saying we're the experts and we're not going to sensitivity and a humility to when new research comes out or there are new findings or we see models that work better, we're more willing to acknowledge the value there and then adapt it to what we do if it's possible. And so I love that because this is like, the motivation is not. We just think this would be better. It's. No, we're hearing that this is a better model and would fit our audience and help the people that we serve better. And so I just. I really appreciate that sensitivity, and I know a lot of that sensitivity came from both of you. And so we also appreciate that, that you were willing to listen, you were willing to take the notes, and then you were willing to implement the changes. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. And I think about that fear that you brought up, Ashley, that, well, if we do this partner, sensitive model and tell them it's not your fault, that they'll just stay stuck in anger. It's kind of like saying that if someone is in A car accident where they were just completely blindsided. And we said to them, oh, this totally isn't your fault, that that will somehow demotivate them from wanting to recover from the accident. It's like that's kind of an odd way to think about it because if you're in an accident, whether it's your fault or not, you're looking at I need to get better. And if someone is stuck in anger and blaming and bitterness towards their spouse, I think they're self aware enough to say, I'm still not healthy. And so allowing this partner sensitive approach really gives them the freedom to get healthy, to deal with what's happened to them. And we feel that in the end. And I think one of the criticisms we also heard about the partner sensitive approach is like, well, it devalues relationship, it devalues that marri connection. And I would say absolutely not. It allows the spouse to move towards healing and recovery so that they're able to return towards the relationship with health and with a firm foundation and not just some old unhealthy patterns of trying to make the marriage work and overlook what's happened. So I really think health for the betrayed spouse is setting them up for a successful recovery of the marriage when possible. And that's why, you know, Absets really has set up the betrayal. The partner sensitive model has these three phases and we got to learn about them and we all took the training that that safety and stabilization are first. And that's really where this betrayal and beyond is camped at, is in that first phase. The second phase being the grief and the remembering and then the third phase being reconnection. And so in some ways we just, we had the order all mishmashed together originally and now we're following that order. So that reconnection, as it happens, really is setting a couple up for success in the marriage for the long haul.

Yeah. So let's press into that then what? Because we've already talked about now what has changed? What stayed the same in this resource from the old version and why is that important in this update to keep those things the same.

So I've always thought that the betrayal and beyond, even the old version had such good foundational information and tools. A lot of the tools have stayed the same. Talking about trauma and safety seeking and emotional stabilization, wearing masks, which is huge for not Covid masks, not Covid masks, but just masking how we're actually feeling forgiveness, all of those things. And really one of the best things that we could do was to take all of Those really great foundational pieces and push into those a little bit more. So instead of having maybe two lessons that talk a little bit about trauma, we were able to then then give women four lessons to say you might be experiencing these kind of symptoms and here's why. And so really just helping women recognize more so their need to take their own healing seriously. Because it's like if you're in the morning, if your brain is just ruminating over discovery or disclosure and all of these things that are happening and all day long you're not productive and you can't take care of yourself well and you can't take care of your kids well. And by the end of the day, your brain is still in the same place. You need to have that awareness that something is wrong, not with you, but something is impacting you and you need to make a change, something that's going to help you to find healing. It did take all of those really great things that were in the original version, but then because we had taken out some other things, it gave us more space and more time essentially to really help women to get a strong foundation in these first two phases of their healing journey that really are going to set them up for whatever comes next for them.

Yeah. And one thing that I thought about was, you know, Betrayal and Beyond has been helping women for a long time. But over the last few years, especially during COVID everybody went online and there is so much content and things available now that women kind of come into group knowing what they want you to tell them. Now, they've already done the research, they've already listened to the podcast.

Yeah.

And so I think what we've done is we've created a less inflammatory, like, non denominational resource, you know, where we're not, you know, where we're. We're kind of highlighting the things that we can all agree on and talk about as betrayed spouses. And like I said, I still see them doing that deep work of connecting family trauma and having good boundaries, but with. Without saying, well, what did you bring into the marriage? What are you contributing to this chaos that's going on? We're giving them a place to still talk about these things, but without kind of like an accusatory tone. And the leaders that I get that, you know, have struggled with the change, they're often leaders who've been doing it for 10 or more years or have done 10 or more groups. And they're great leaders. But we've designed these workbooks to be for the layperson in a church or Just somebody that can pick it up and say, let's go through this together. And so I think we've given them a resource that they really can pick up even easier and go through. And regardless if they have a woman who comes in listening to this podcast and knows all this information, they're able to talk about this mutual information about let's heal from betrayal, let's understand what's happened to us, mind, body and soul because of betrayal, and then move forward in health. And so I think that in a group setting, it's a lot more appropriate if you are an experienced leader or a counselor, you can navigate some of those more complex issues faster. But this is first phase for most women, and we want it to feel very safe for them to come. And we don't want them to hear anything that they may have heard in their marriage. Well, your family has this too. That's not why they're there. So the point is healing from betrayal trauma first before moving into those family issues.

Yeah. And I would add that the structure of the group has remained the same, the packaging that the group comes in. And so it is still the same general time frame, the same length, the same group guidelines, the same place of safety and confidentiality and honoring other people's stories and not going off on rabbit trails and having cross talk and telling everybody how to fix their lives. There's some of those safety parameters that we have seen just make for healthy groups. And so those are still in place. The packaging that it comes in is still very similar. The content has changed a lot. But what I would also say has not changed is our view and approach, that this has to be built on our faith in Christ. And a biblical found that healing and recovery through the lens of where is God in my story and how do I trust him? If maybe the betrayal in my marriage has caused me to have doubts about my faith and where am I at with God? I think just addressing those pieces as well, to say we're doing this through the lens of faith. And so that's a cornerstone of pure desire and is also something that is the same from the previous material.

And to your point earlier about people's concern that it might somehow not be focused on the marriage, that perspective has not changed either. We are very, very much focused on restoration of marriages and making sure that that is a focus. But it's just the sequencing of things has changed to try to set that up better.

So in what ways would you say that the new approach is better for spouses and maybe to add what Are you hearing as women walk through it, as groups use it, what are the outcomes that you're seeing that is making this effective for women? Healing from betrayal.

Yeah. Like I said, women come into a group already knowing what they want because They've listened to 85 podcasts and webinars. And so even before I started this round of our new Betrayal and Beyond in August was when we launched our brand new workbooks and I had about four leaders getting ready to start, including myself, because I wanted to be one of the first ones to go through it. And I was already getting emails from women like, well, I, you know, is there going to be codependent stuff in there? Oh, I see that you're starting with this. And I've looked into that and I don't want to talk about him. And so I had not really seen that before in the past. Like, they know what they want to talk about. And so with this new resource, I've seen that it's just given them, like I said, that safe place where they can come and process what's happening to them. And because we've stretched the process out, what I've seen from being here for, you know, over the women's groups for eight years is that it's helping them to pick up all the loose threads along the way. We know that you have to circle back year after year, but when we went too fast into, okay, we're going to learn about the addict brain and chapter two or whatever, I always get the chapters confused and the old one. And then we're going to talk about family of origin things. What I experienced and was seeing is that if I felt, okay, John's doing something very addicty, then my old critic would come back and say, well, you're being very controlling. You just need to let this be his recovery. And you need to take the, the plank out of your own eye before you take the spec out of your brothers, which is the worst we took out of the material. And, and, and so I would say, well, I'm controlling or I have my own addictive behaviors. But what I really needed to learn was that that's not what we're talking about right here. Like, I am still working on my own issues or, or he even has the right to bring up some issues that I have. But that doesn't discredit me for, for saying, you know, when you were up late last night and you looked at those things, that really hurt me. That's not me being controlling, that's me understanding what that does to my relationship. And so I feel like we just really slowed that down instead of seeing women take on too much, like, I'm contributing to this, and this is why this is happening. We really need to let the betrayal and the addictive behaviors be what they are first and then move into that family of origin thing. And so I think that's the biggest shift I've seen is it's letting women sit and, like, process and feel the weight of what happened in their marriage. Because, you know, we say that, yes, maybe I attracted an addict spouse twice. And I did because of my family of origin, which I recognize that, you know, I grew up with addicted parents. I grew up on my own. And so I ignored a lot of red flags with my addiction spouses that now I wouldn't. And so I do think that family of origin work and trauma work, childhood trauma work is so important. But also, we have women who come in and their husbands didn't have this kind of issue before they went into marriage. It was. They were in night school, and they were in residency school. And the work and the flirty nurses and the. The lack of boundaries brought them into this situation that honestly was not there before marriage. And so sometimes the sin nature or curiosity or lack of good awareness brings them into a situation. And so to have a woman come in, which I've had, it was a very sad email. She said, I've worked multiple jobs, I've cared for our kids. I helped put my husband through med school. All the while, he was having an affair with the nurse. And so to come into a group and be told, what are you doing to cause this? Or what did you contribute to this just feels like a punch to my gut. And I don't think this is for me. And so that was really hard for me to hear. And I don't see that with the new material at all.

Yeah. Heather, I remember when we were having some initial conversations, you said an illustration about someone breaking their foot and going into the hospital. And that, for me, helped me see this so, so much better. Could you explain that illustration really quick? I feel like that'd be helpful for people to hear.

Yeah. So the way that I think of betrayal, trauma, and the difference between the approaches that we take or that we took historically and now would be that, let's say a woman or a person goes into a emergency room and they have a broken foot and they weigh 400 pounds. And the ER docs say, you know what? Yes, your foot is broken, but, you know, you're really overweight, and so really you should leave and go work on that and come back after you've lost £100 or more, and then we can fix your foot. And it's like that wouldn't benefit anyone because the crisis is not the weight that's been building over time, but the crisis is that their foot is broken. And it's only going to get worse if they continue to walk on it and they weigh 400 pounds. And so we need to fix their foot right now and then we'll work on everything else later. And so I think that that was helpful even for me in this process to think of what do they need right now? What do women need who are right after discovery or in this crisis thing? And also keeping in mind that when women are put in this situation, well, any partner who's experienced betrayal, you're put in a situation and you're in the middle of it. It's not the start of it. And that's the other thing is that right now, in order for you to feel safe and get some kind of emotional awareness and stabilization, what do you need right now? And I think even like Ashley was saying, one of the reasons, the bigger reasons for slowing down this process was to help women recognize to, like Ashley said, sit in how they're feeling, put a word with that feeling, and then also be able to communicate that feeling in a way that is healthy and expresses her boundaries, you know what I mean? And so it's like all of those kind of things take time. And I think in slowing down this process, we're giving women again what they need up front to deal with the crisis that they're in, so that then it sets them up for what comes later.

Another way that I think the new approach is better is that the co addict or the codependent model kind of assumes an addict that is still in the picture that you could be co dependent with someone, that there's a marriage they're working to restore or trying to rebuild. And that's just not a reality for all women who are in betrayal. And we've had many, many women come into groups that he's already gone, the marriage has already ended. This is maybe something in their past, whether recently or further back, or women who might still be married. But it is not reasonable or healthy to consider that with the state of the behavior or what's happening on the addict side, that it can make it. And so I think for those spouses that tried to go through the old betrayal and beyond, they were always kind of filtering it through the. Well, you know that's not my case, or I'm not working on that with my husband, because he's not here and I don't want him around and he shouldn't be. And in this approach, it's much more universal that all women experiencing the pain of betrayal have some needs for recovery. And whether the marriage is in place or not, whether the addict is doing their work or not, whether the marriage is going to make it or not, this version of betrayal and beyond applies to the heart and mind and story of that woman. And I think that allows groups to gel much better to come together around what they're experiencing and not what's happening in their marriage. And so I just see that as a huge benefit also for churches that don't have to say, well, you know, your marriage isn't making it. So I don't know if you'll feel comfortable in this group now. It's like, if you've been hurt and betrayed, this group is for you. And that's just an easier way to help women and churches understand the groups.

You know, going back to Heather's example, the broken leg. I know her and I, when we were trying to put our mind into how to write this material for, like, once we understood the magnitude of what betrayal trauma does to your body and your mind. And how many women come into my groups that have chronic illness and. And they've been living in this trauma. We had talked about, like, oh, well, it's like a rape victim. And so even with the broken leg analogy or rape victim who may be prowling the nighttime streets or walking down, you know, the strip where they shouldn't be wearing a mini skirt, but we're still focusing on the trauma. But then there's also the person that is like a super athlete and really healthy and does something and their leg breaks. So whether we have a woman coming in and there hasn't been codependent history or there hasn't been issues that she's done to create this, it's just it was literally her husband's sinful nature that did this in temptation, or they have a history of being unhealthy and codependent. Either way, we want both of those women to feel comfortable in this group. And that's why we just isolated the focus to the trauma of betrayal. Regardless of what your. Your history or what led to this is because, you know, like, probably four or five years ago, when John had a relapse, we had already been through the material. We had already used everything we understood. I was controlling and had abandonment issues. You know, we'd done all that work. And so when he relapsed again, I was like, this is not because my mom was never home. Like, this is. This is your fault. And I like it. I had to. I think that's when I did the deep dive into learning more about betrayal trauma. Because I was experiencing. Like, this is not because my dad was an addict. You know, we've done all the work. We've been good for a few years. This is because you've allowed yourself to drop some boundaries and to slide back into old behaviors, because your brain can just pick those things back up again once you allow yourself to start edging and going back to those behaviors. And I just knew, without a doubt, like, this is not because of my family fortune. This is all him. And so that's kind of also what spurred on. Like, why. What is this? How do I get through this? You know, it's. But yeah, I love how. Lots of reasons why we needed to update it.

I also love how casually Ashley just be like, everyone knows I'm codependent and controlling and blah, blah, blah. Okay, so. And I think too, just something off that Ashley, that with this, the sequencing, again, is trying to set up a betrayed woman who's a betrayed partner to be in a place where she can reconcile with her husband and there can be healing in that relationship. And just understanding that the sequencing doesn't eliminate our focus on the marriage or our focus on. Because this is one of the things our ministry does well, is hold that tension of, yes, you have been betrayed. Yes, you are going through this. Yes, we do have a heart for you. And at the exact same time, we do understand that your spouse's struggle has to do with trauma and woundedness and how his brain is messed up. And we also have a heart for him. And so holding that tension together is a challenge that we don't take lightly. And I think that we do pretty well.

We embrace it.

We do. We absolutely do. But that's also part of why making this change was important, is the sequencing helps set up that restoration later much, much better. Okay, so we talked about taking the family of origin stuff out, and there is still some, like the neurochemistry and understanding the addict brain. It's still there, but the sequencing has changed. And so with that, what should women do after going through this new version of betrayal and beyond?

Well, if you think about. And this is where I can come in handy, because sometimes a woman doesn't know, and there are multiple options. So betrayal Trauma recovery in general is like a three legged stool where your spouse hopefully is getting recovered, you're getting healed and gaining stabilization and safety. And then, and then the third leg would be, we need to learn how to integrate those. We need the addict to learn how to help the spouse heal. We need the spouse to learn how to start taking what she's learned in her group and incorporating it into her marriage and using good language and growing together, either rebuilding that trust and intimacy or building it possibly for the first time. And so sometimes that's where a lot of that family work can come in. Because now she's going to have to learn how she responds to things and want to integrate it. So it's her healing, his recovery, and then their healing together would be a natural next step. But if you were like me, where you got in betrayal and beyond and you're like, like I'm really an addict. Everything reading, reading about the addicts applies to me. My next step was to go through our material for women who struggle. And that was really good for me. And so that was my natural next step. Some people, they'll want to go through it again, they'll need counseling because they haven't really made a lot of forward progress in their healing. Maybe they're stuck. And as Dr. Steffen says, when we feel unsafe in area, we'll stay stuck. And so if the group wasn't helpful, able to help you get unstuck, which usually it does, then that may be an indicator that we need some one on one counseling to try to dig into those areas and figure out where we're still feeling unsafe. We could also co lead because if you have gained good traction on your healing, then co leading is a great next step because the betrayal recovery process is still, you know, just as long as an addict's recovery. And so you don't want to lose steam your second or third time through a group. And leading can be a great way to just offer that same comfort that you received and keep you motivated. I can't say how many times I would have just quit my group if I wasn't leading it, because I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. But then I'd come and there'd be somebody who had some kind of breakthrough or was struggling. And I was able to encourage them because of my story. And it just gives you this deeper level of healing that you can't get alone from being a group member. And so, you know, some women, they didn't ask for this. It wasn't There it wasn't their issue that brought them in. And so some women are like, okay, that was great. I'm so thankful. I need a little break. But there needs to be something afterward because it's not going to just be one year, you know, and then everything's better. And that's where I say if you need help deciding what your next step is, that's what the groups team here at Pure Desire is for. We have a really great women's team and we'll hear a little bit about what you gained, what you liked, what your story is, where you're still feeling some struggles and then we can offer a good suggestion on a next step.

Yeah, well, and it's interesting too because we are always talking about that three to five year plan for that three to five year process. And so if you figure that this resource is nine months, then there is going to be something next. And hopefully this is going to set women up to then want to look at if there's anything from their past that they need to deal with, or if there's anything from their family of origin or within their attachment style or these other things that they're ready then to face those things and find healing in those areas as well.

Yeah, question off that. Let's say someone goes through this first round of group and still doesn't feel like they're ready for that, is it okay for them to go through it one more time?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of times we see with the addicts and the betrayed spouse that they come in and, you know, they're in crisis, either in trauma or betrayal trauma or, you know, stuck in their addiction. And so that's why when people go through the second time, the first few chapters are like, I don't remember, I don't remember answering this. And I can't believe I even wrote this because it takes. It's like the first, first few months of being in group is like breaking this denial and starting to feel safe enough to look at things. And then the second time you go through group, you're really in a good place to just dive in. And you weren't really there when you went through it the first time.

Yeah, I'd say in many groups sometimes that first time through is triage care. It's stopping the bleeding and the pain. And the second time through is like physical therapy. It's learning new rhythms and it can be the same material and very, very different experiences. A couple of things I would add, particularly for those couples that are looking to rebuild the marriage that are trying to create that connection with a spouse where both have been doing some work. If you haven't seen our video series, Sexual Integrity 101, I know for many couples, the ability that you can stream that and just watch it together at home starts to bring together your stories in kind of a very introductory, basic way and open up some of those conversations. So that can be a great tool to use as a couple or if you, if it's being used at your church to join in on one of those groups. And then another resource that we have that when couples particularly are starting to feel traction and are ready to go to some of those deeper places together to use the couples Workbook, Connected. It's a very, very powerful resource and it's deep. So we do caution people like, this isn't just a surfacey like, oh, three tips for better communication in your marriage. It's like, what are my core wounds that create triggers, and what are yours, and how do our triggers play off of each other? And. And it's going to take you into some of your stuff. But if you're feeling traction because you've done group or maybe you've done counseling together, that Connected Workbook is a powerful tool for couples to use as a second step. So either one of those could be a good place for women who are finding that desire to return to some health in their marriage and to begin building something together. All right, last question here that some of the listeners might be thinking through. What if a woman has gone through the previous version of Betrayal and Beyond and maybe answer to both scenarios? Maybe they feel like they've got really good traction or they feel like they're still stuck. Would going through the new version of Betrayal and Beyond be good for them if they've already done that experience with the old version?

I would say yes, only because it's different enough. If you figure that probably I would guess that maybe 50% of the old material is in there, again in a different format and maybe even in a different context a little bit. But still, there's a lot of really great new information in there. And even the way that we streamlined the journal a little bit so that the journal really is more focused on the application piece of the process. And so it isn't going back and forth like the old journal and workbook kind of worked, but it really is saying, okay, here's what you learned. So let's put these other tools in place, let's use these strategies and see what this looks like to actually integrate this into your weekly rhythm. And so I think that it would be really beneficial. We have received a couple emails from women who say, okay, we're in chapter two or chapter three, and I kind of missed that. This piece wasn't there. And our response is, okay, that piece is probably still there. It just has been moved so that it makes more sense within the context. And so keep going. But we really have enjoyed the feedback that we've gotten and have received a lot of really positive feedback on the new curriculum.

The women also are liking the podcast suggestions that go along with the material and, and now we have the videos. And so I think it would be great to go through again. I recently had a. A woman ask about it and I said yes, because there's new research in there about the betrayed spouse's brain and body that you wouldn't have had before. But I would say if you gain time, good traction in your healing from the first book and you're like, out of it, you're done. You're like, okay, I did that a couple years ago. I'm not really doing that anymore. Then you could go through the new one and lead it, because we always need leaders, so you don't have to go through the new one to, you know, on your own before leading it. If you've been through the old one, you know, then maybe it would be good to lead it and you'd be getting that opportunity to go through it again or go through the new content.

Which is a great time to go through our group leader training course as well, to get up and fresh on that.

You know, I'm gonna put plug for leaders.

That's right.

Go back and go through it.

It's a little bit like saying, I went to the gym a couple years ago and got in really good shape. Should I go back to the gym this year? Working on your health is always good. And the New Betrayal and beyond is going to be another opportunity to work on your health, your growth. And as Ashley just brought up, if you're ready to turn and help other women, and we would just so encourage that. And I think it reminds us too, that there can be a mindset here that, that sometimes we look at healing as a one and done process. Like I did that I'm over it. I'm done. Where in reality, we've just seen over and over that this is a journey. It's an ongoing experience of healing and growth and maturity. And yes, we may have worked through some of the initial layers that are pretty deep and messy and feel like we're in a much better place. But I can almost guarantee you there's more to your story to learn and grow from. There's more in your marriage to work on. There's more issues that. That in your second, third, fourth year of recovery or coming up in the marriage and you're asking new questions. And so that understanding that doing the group doesn't mean I'm deficient in some way or weak, it's a commitment to my own healing and recovery. And that's always good in every season of life. And so if we have that mindset shift of saying, I'm on a journey of healing and growth and this will just be another phase of that, then I think we can re engage in a way that says, I'm not going back to group because I'm so broken, and I'm going back because I just want to keep growing and maturing. And that would be good for all of us.

Yeah. Okay. So I really think that. And you guys have heard us say this before, and I'm sure we've said on the podcast, but again, thank you so much for the work that you both have done and put into this resource. I go back to, like, the sensitivity of being open to the feedback of women that are in group, open and humble to receive expertise and new research that's out there. And we know that this was a labor, and it was a labor of love, but it was definitely a labor. This was a lot of work that you guys did. And, you know, I don't know if people know. We had a lot of conversations internally about this change and about these updates to make sure that this was right for pure desire. And you guys were faithful and you pushed it and you kept doing it. And we're so glad that you did because this is definitely a more valuable resource now for where women are coming into growing group, especially after discovery and the relationship injury and all of that. So thank you so much for the work that you've done. That's number one. Number two, thank you for continuing to push this. And then three, just thanks for being with us today. We appreciate both of you.

Thank you.

When someone says thank you, you normally respond with, oh, yeah, no problem, or thanks.

I actually was supposed to go first.

I love you too, Trevor.

Or I. I got stuck. I got stuck. You know why? Because we didn't say, like, what's one thing you like, what's your. What do you want to say? Like, you know how we end usually with that question.

Here's the super host, you know, dynamic Playing out. Ash is just taking control.

I thought of something that has been a reoccurring conversation since this book has come out, and I just wanted to say what I thought about, well, go ahead, I guess. But you were. You were doing so good wrapping it up, I felt.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

So what I wanted to say is for our leaders, this is specifically for our wonderful leaders. We have hundreds of them. We have so many great leaders. But change is hard. And so when the leaders call me, which I've had several, it's usually leaders who have been through this material before, not the leaders going through the new material for the first time that I just want to emphasize, have a good attitude in your group and let these women have their group experience. Because if you have any inkling of, oh, well, we had this in our own group and you're missing a piece, and this was really valuable, then those women will start to feel like they're missing something and they're not getting the full version. And so the biggest thing about our groups is that community and that they have this free space to process their trauma and heal and put in plans, and they're still getting that. And that is a huge piece of group. And so just go in with a very positive mindset that you are happy for them, you're excited for them, and leave out the stuff of, well, you're missing this, or the old book was better, or the old book did this. So if you could leave out, like, it's almost like getting married, you wouldn't be like, well, my other husband did this. Well, my other, you know. You know, leave your old husband out of the group and just, like, let them have their experience because they are doing well. It's now been almost a year and multiple groups have finished, and the women are doing really well going through the group. So leave. Leave old guy out of it.

That's all well said. Thanks, Ashley.

And you know what's really funny is that Ashley's like, where was that question? And I don't know if you realize this listener, but Ashley wrote these questions, so the fact that it's not in there is on you, girl. And I'm not gonna thank you again. Okay? I already did that. So wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you're someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.