315 - Marriage, Relationships, & Sex w/ Dr. Les Parrott

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 315 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I'm the king of the world.

I mean, I'm just. Can we just talk about why? I just want to get into why, because I feel like that's. It's an interesting, interesting one. Do you want to tell the people what that's from?

Well, some people are going to want to know and they're going to want to know if you know, which I assume you do.

I'm king of the world. Titanic.

Yes.

Yeah. Can I.

Like Mr. Leo DiCaprio.

I've never seen the movie. Wow.

I know.

You were like. When it came out, you were young and there was six, Right.

There was nudity and they're like, no.

I remember I was 18 and it felt shady that I was seeing it because that, you know, that whole. There was a nudity scene. Totally. You shouldn't be there. You're a Christian. I felt some guilt about it.

But as a lover of film and from what I understand, James Cameron, like, I should be watching this movie.

Yes. Well, so listener be warned. If you have triggers with movies, don't watch it. But if you didn't know that that content was in there, it is like 28 years old. So it's not like we're revealing any surprises here. But the movie holds. You know, I've got. I've seen the movie without it. It's. The movie totally works without any of the questionable scenes. I'm the king of the world. It's that moment where he's standing on the very bow of the ship and he's holding his arms out over the ocean and it's like he's met the girl and he's going to the new world. And it's like, life is good, right? Everything is the way he wants it to be. And then shortly later, they hit an iceberg. The boat sinks. There's no room for him on the door. He drowns. You know, it's awful.

There's a lot of people who think he could fit on the door.

Yeah, well, I met. I did. You see, someone actually did research on that.

Like, of course they did the way.

Of it and they were backing up James Cameron that it would have drowned them both. Anyway, that's another conversation. What I was thinking about for today's episode is that Relationships, and maybe marriages in particular can feel like that, that there are moments that everything is just right and good. You know, I've heard people say, you know, when marriage is good, there's nothing better in this world. And, and then there are other moments where it can feel like our marriage hits an iceberg and things are bad. And I think the flip side is true. When our marriage is really bad, there is maybe nothing more difficult or painful in the world to have to figure out and walk through. And I know for many listeners on our podcast, what's drawn them here is they've had some iceberg moments, they've had some real challenges, whether personally or in the marriage. And so I think Today talking to Dr. Les Parrott was just a great opportunity to hear a relationship expert kind of bring his perspective into this realm of sexuality and broke brokenness and communication and honesty and just how do we do all of that? Because it can be the high highs and the low lows and sometimes both in very short sequences of time. So I feel like every single listener is going to get something good out of this for their relationships, whether they're married or hoping to be married. And we're just, yeah, thankful that we had Dr. Parrot on to talk about all of these things.

And people need to know a little behind the scenes action. Like it was like 1:30 and we were like, hey, Les Parrott said that he could do an episode at 2:30. Can we do it? And we pulled it together. We had, I think you and I had put this episode together over a year, like a long time ago.

And he said some, you know, you just have to text me and maybe within that day we'll do it. And I was like, really? Come on. And then sure enough, oh my gosh.

Yeah. So we pulled it together very quickly and this is kind of a quick burst one compared to maybe some of the ones you've listened to, but definitely an awesome time. That was another bucket list person to talk to that was just super, super cool. And if you don't know who Les Parrott is, he'll introduce himself a little bit. But he is a best selling, best selling author, basically is also a clinical psychologist, a professor. His wife is a licensed marriage and family therapist as well. They've written tons of books and have tons of resources. Some of the bigger ones are loveology.org, which he references a few times in the episode. And also I believe it's betterlove.com is the other one that he talks about and sounds like the assessment that he talks about, too, when we get into it, is really, really. So we'll have all those in the show notes. But, man, our time together with Les was great, you know, and one of the things you and I talk about, too, each episode, especially as we're doing these introductions, is what's a resource or something that we can use as a handoff for people from the conversation. And you and I just landed on the Pure Desire Summit, which is coming in September, September 15 and 16, here in Troutdale, Oregon, online at host sites around the country. And we want couples to come to this event together. Let's talk about that.

Yeah, it's obviously not required. I mean, we've also had people come with their groups, people meet their online groups here, meet up friends. So that's amazing, too. But I know for many couples in recovery, they are asking the question, what do we do together? They've maybe had some counseling together. But a lot of the recovery journey, and appropriately so, is the struggler going through a group to face their issues and what led to them, and the betrayed spouse in their group with people that are walking that same road with them. And while they're both having very maybe effective healing experiences, looking for how do we bridge that gap and do more now together as a couple? And honestly, I think the Pure Desire Summit is a great way to do that, to get away for a weekend, whether you're coming here in person or to a host site or just you're getting away for a weekend in your own study or living room or a hotel in your own city where you're just going to watch the summit together live or the next weekend. I mean, whatever works for you and your spouse to carve out some time and just say, hey, for a couple of days. We're focusing on now us together. And I think this year's theme in particular lends itself to that kind of coupleship experience of looking at the idea of the heart. And how is the heart in recovery being renewed and restored? Where is God at in that process? And I think couples would just really get a lot out of it. And to be in an environment, if you come here or to one of the host sites where you're getting to see a lot of other people on that same road. That's the thing I've heard from countless couples about the summit. They just said it was so encouraging to be in a room with other people who get it, who know what I've experienced and are making progress and are growing together. So all that to say, if you're single. Your marriage hasn't made it. I think we're still very aware of that. And the conference will be awesome for you as well. But for that married couple, just to look at, how could we have an enhanced experience because we both get to go through something together that kind of bonds us in a new way. So, yeah, come to the summit. We'd love to see you. I'm excited about the speakers, the content. It's going to be a really good time. Yeah.

And we have specifically on the speakers, just so people know, Dr. Barbara Steffens, who's one of the founders of AppSats, one of the leaders in betrayal healing. And then we also have Nate Larkin from the Samson Society, who's also one of our speakers. It's going to be a lot of fun. You'll hear from us too, as well, the Pure Desire staff, but definitely have some heavy hitters. So if you are interested in the summit, if you want to have a watch party, if you want to come in person, want to go to a host site, whatever it may be, just go to PureDesire.org summit. With that, a couple more things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Platforms. And follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi. And with that, here is our time with Dr. Les Parrott talking about marriage, relationships and sex. Les Parrott, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. Man, thank you so much for being with us.

Great to be with you guys. It's an honor.

If only the listeners knew how quickly we pulled this episode together, they'd be so impressed.

Les is a busy man.

We appreciate your time. And as a marriage expert, as an author, professor, it only makes sense that we talk to you about marriage, specifically the area of sexuality and its impact on marriage. But for those three people out there who don't know you or your work, can you just tell them a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Sure, yeah. I'm a psychologist and my wife, Leslie, we've been married for more than three decades. She's a marriage and family therapist. We've got two boys. They're both in college and one in New York and one in the uk and we are passionate about making bad relationships better and good relationships great. That's what we've dedicated our professional life, too. We have a bhag. Do you guys know what a bhag is? Yeah.

Big hairy, audacious goal.

Yeah. Ours is to see the divorce rate reduced by a third, particularly in local churches, in our lifetime. That is our passion. And we're more optimistic, by the way, about that than ever. And when I say we, I mean by the professional community, not just Leslie and me. We have the tools that we've never had before. And so anyway, and here's something interesting. Did you know that for every single percentage point that we lower the divorce rate, the lives of more than a million children are positively impacted?

Crazy.

That's for one single percentage point. So imagine if we got to double digits. It'd be incredible. Right? So anyway, that's what we're passionate about. Everything that we do kind of funnels toward that, that end. Years ago, by way of introduction, we started a. The first ever online matching company with a pretty sophisticated algorithm to match people. Well, all in an effort to lower the divorce rate. We called that company eharmony. And so eharmony, we wrote a book called saving your marriage before it starts that has been used by nearly 2 million couples. And, and so anyway, everything kind of funnels toward that. But yeah, that's the context. It's awesome. And yes, by the way, we do have the same name. I'm Leslie and she's Leslie. So amaz.

It's easier if you only have to remember one name.

That's true.

Yeah.

It's just simplicity, more efficient.

Yep.

So a lot of our listeners probably are familiar with your books and maybe went through some of the marriage preparation tools that you guys have. And I know a lot of people have been trained to use that in, you know, pre marriage type classes and preparation work. And as you mentioned, you and Leslie have been doing this for over three decades. So I wanted to know, as we get going here, what have you seen over the course of the last 30 years that you've seen? Relationships and marriage preparation is changing. What, what shifts and trends are you observing over the last 30 years?

Not much people still long to be married. The vast majority of people want to be married for life. I guess if we look at sociological trends, one of the biggest changes has been way more cohabitation than ever before. And so people put off marriage. They, they do what sociologists call sliding rather than deciding in marriage. And so they move in together thinking that's a good way to kind of test the water. So that I guess that's a significant change. And then maybe another change would be just that they've. So many people have seen examples of how not to be married. They came from homes where mom and dad didn't provide the greatest example of marriage. And so that used to be the minority of folks, and now it's the majority, of course. And so those are two big shifts. On the positive side, what we see is technology being leveraged like never before to help people. We don't have to, we no longer have to wonder what is it that we can help couples do to have a, you know, a strong and thriving marriage. It's. The research is in, it's very evident what needs to take place in order to build a bond that lasts, that lasts a lifetime.

Yeah. So good. Well, let's just keep going. I know you don't have a lot of time, so we're just, some ways we're just gonna go just blow through these questions. But specifically in our area, when someone has struggled with pornography, sexual brokenness, addiction, how can that person know if they're ready for marriage or even remarriage, if they're working through recovery?

Well, that's, as you guys well know, that's not an unusual thing at all these days because pornography is so accessible. And so almost always there is some history of, with nearly any guy that's, that's getting married. So it's not something that in our mind we go, oh, pump the brakes, we gotta call, you know, sound the alarm. This is something that we have to help that person. You know, there's a little statement that we have had for a long, long time and we say that your marriage can only be as healthy as you are now. More harsh way of saying that is your marriage can only be as healthy as the least healthy person in it. And so if there's an addiction like pornography or gambling, or there's struggles with things like an eating disorder or what have you, you know, you want to work on who you are in the context of that relationship. And so getting married does not instantly heal that. It doesn't make it easier or change that you are still the same person. And by the way, there is a tool that is so great that you guys are well aware of and it's on everybody's phone, they're holding it in their hands right now. It's totally free and it's called loveology.org it's a non profit, doesn't cost a dime. And Nick, you've been on there many times to answer questions just like the one you're posing to me right now. And you're the true expert in this area. But I just want to let people know if they're looking for short form video answers to questions just like the ones that we're talking about. It's an incredible resource, not just from Leslie and me, it's from over 100 relationship experts. And so it's really incredible. If you have a question about, hey, how do I get my spouse on the same page with me for finances, you know, who better than Dave Ramsey to help you with that? Well, he's got a series of videos each three minutes long that you can get these little wisdom bombs. Maybe you're figuring out how to set boundaries with your in laws. Who better to do that than Henry Cloud that wrote the book on boundaries? And so anyway, when you ask that question, I can't help it but to think, well, the best person to ask that is, is. Is Nick. And he does that on loveology.org I.

Can'T recall that that was a question I answered, but I appreciate the promotion there. And you know what I hear you saying in this question, too. It's the kind of question if a person asks, well, when are we ready to have kids? The truth is, if you wait until you're perfectly ready, you probably never will be. And in our recovery journeys, if we've dealt with sexual brokenness, if we've dealt with pornography, if we're waiting for some golden age where we will have zero struggle, zero temptation, I'll just be in this totally free state. It's like that's in some ways almost an unrealistic expectation. It is better to look around and ask, am I making progress? Am I having some traction? Am I seeing signs of health? Because just like you brought up Les, we bring either our health or our unhealth into the marriage. And if we feel like I am moving towards a healthy direction and I've got friends or people that I really value their opinion that are affirming that and saying, man, I think you're really making progress. There's some maturing, there's growth, then we can take stock in saying, I may not be perfected yet, but as I'm developing health, I can begin to explore marriage and relationships. And yeah, I just think that's a great idea for all of us to think about. I either bring my health or my unhealth into the marriage with me.

Yeah, I think it's the single most important thing we do in our relationship is work on who we are in the context of it. And by the way, you touched on something that the research shows is incredibly important for people that are thinking about getting married, and that is, are they getting the blessing from the people that know them the best, you know, from their friends and their family? In other words, do they think, yeah, this is a good Match. This is a. This is a. We like you guys as a couple. We think it's good for both of you. That is a huge predictor in marital success. And when you marry someone that everybody that knows you well goes, this isn't. You need to slow down here. Not a good sign.

It occurs to me, Les, we kind of are approaching marriages from two sides here, that at Pure Desire, we're often helping a marriage through the lens of someone's sexual brokenness and addiction. And you're often ending up dealing with their maybe sexual addiction or brokenness because you're helping the marriage. And so from your perspective as kind of a marriage expert and in dealing with relationships for all these years now, what is the impact that you have seen that pornography has on a marriage and a relationship?

Well, as you know, there's a mountain of research on this. And some years ago, I wrote a book called Crazy Good Sex. And it's about the myths that men believe about sexuality, especially in. In marriage. And there's a whole chapter I devoted to. To pornography. And of course, what the. The biggest thing that I see that that happens is just the removal of your presence, your healthy presence in the wife, in the life of your wife, because now you have a substitute for her that you're counting on for gratification. And she's missing out on that. Part of that kind of all the oxytocin, all the. All the good chemicals that you want that join you, that create a bond between you, you're giving those away for free. You don't enjoy those. That's a huge payoff in marriage. It extends your life, by the way. It helps you heal faster. It does all kinds of incredible things for you and your relationship. Well, when you have that struggle with pornography and now that you're. You're. You're, you know, leaning on that rather than the relationship with your wife, you miss out on all that good stuff. Yeah.

And it.

I think it creates a wrongful or an unrealistic expectation of what sex should look like for both spouses. And a lot of that pressure does get put on the betrayed partner who is not watching pornography. And is that the. That's not what their norm is for sexuality? So I think we're thinking more on the single side here. And we get this question all the time. When is the right time to tell someone that we're dating, we're engaged with, and maybe that's even too late about our sexual history? Like, when is it too much too soon? And when does it become maybe withholding the truth from them.

Well, there's kind of two answers that I want to give to that question. And one is your. Your spouse or your future spouse does not need to know all the gory details of your sex life and your. Your history that you're bringing in that. That can do more harm than good. And. And there's sometimes, you know, there's this concept in theology called scrupulosity, where it's this idea that I just need to be so authentically vulnerable about my sins that I just, you know, just put it out there at all costs. And that can be really harmful and really punishing for people. So you have to understand that. Okay. Because that's not the goal. The goal is how do I find health and healing and a positive direction forward with this person I want to spend the rest of my life with. Okay. And not for me to just cleanse my being of all the things that I feel like I'm supposed to put out there, because I don't want any secrets from my spouse. Spouse. I'm not proposing that you hold secrets, but I am proposing some empathy that you would get a sense of what that feels like to hear that on the other side. And then my other part of the answer is that you want to do that with a trusted counselor or a marriage minister or a. A marriage champion of some kind of a mentor. And we find that to. To be most effective when you're using an assessment tool. And we have a tool called sim, the Symbas Assessment that a lot of churches and pastors and counselors use. We also have one that you can do on your own called Better Love. But I'm suggesting you do this with a counselor, somebody that's trusted, that can guide you through that conversation. Because it's dicey. It can get really dicey if you don't know what you're doing and just to kind of blurt stuff out there thinking, oh, this is what I need to do, because you need to know this stuff. Maybe not. And so you want a real pro that is your kind of your Sherpa guide along the way.

Yeah, I think that's so good, because we can. You know, I think often in dating relationships or engagements, this happens in kind of a more emotional way of like. Like you said, I just. I just got to get it all out there. And we maybe overshare. We get too into the weeds and into the details. It. It can do more damage than good. And so that. That desire, I think, to be fully known, to have someone have a Good understanding of you is. And something I might encourage along those lines is talking it through with that friend, trusted advisor, even a counselor first to just say, hey, I really care about this person. I really think we have a future together, and I want to open up this door to my life. Here's what I feel led to share with them and actually share that with another person that you trust first. And ask them, is this too much? Is that too deep? Is it on the flip side, is it too vague? Am I so glossing over everything that I'm actually going to create more questions than I create knowledge and awareness? So I think if you can do that purposefully, knowing you want to do it for the goal of health and for that mutual knowledge and trust, that's good. But there is a way, as you're bringing up les, that can really be over the top, that then someone is maybe struggling with thoughts and images about your past that just isn't gonna help.

The relationship moving forward unless you talked about it. That going to a professional. We talk about this a lot with disclosure in our groups that if you haven't processed your story and don't understand all of the important pieces to it, you may end up doing this staggered disclosure where little bits come out over time. And the trauma, like research suggests that the trauma that that partner is receiving is significant at that point. Just getting these slow cuts over time. And so reaching out to a professional, being in a group setting, going through a resource that helps you make sense of your story before that disclosure happens, is going to lessen the damage. Overall, though, it's important to know that there will be damage when that sort of information comes out. It's, you know, if it's received well, then maybe we need to explore some of where the partner is at as well. But it's not going to be an easy situation.

Yeah, exactly. Right. And the key is to think, what is the end goal? What is the purpose of doing this? Is it just to lighten my load and free my burden? No, that's not the goal of this. Right. The goal is to build a healthy relationship. So there's a sense of understanding. And as you said, Nick, you said to be known, Right? You want to be known. And I would add to that. Accepted. You want to be known, and you want to be accepted. And so you're not doing this in order to, like, test them. Well, will you accept me if you know this crazy, dark secret about me? It's really delicate. And so anyway, yes. You want that professional guy to help you through It.

So I'm guessing you and Leslie have worked with a lot of couples, and as you've maybe gotten to know someone, you find on a one on one basis that they are carrying some secrets. And I think we've all heard people say, oh, I'm going to carry this secret to my grave. I don't want to hurt them with it. It's better if they don't know. So as you work with couples and like building trust and dealing with difficult things, how do you help someone that is just maybe convinced that keeping the secret from their spouse is better and better for the relationship? What kind of conversation or dialogue do you have with them to help them come to a place of truthfulness in their marriage?

When you're talking one on one with.

This person, I'm assuming, yeah, I'm assuming they're, they're only sharing with you and, or you found out something in confidence with them and they're just saying, no, I'm never going to tell them.

Well, you know, there's that old adage that comes from AA that you, you're only as sick as your secrets. Right. And so it's not healthy to carry, you know, to have a big chunk of your life that is known by you that is not known by anybody else. The metaphor I often use, it's like taking a basketball and you're in a swimming pool and you're, you, you're submerging that basketball as deep into the pool as you can, Right. But you still have your head above the water and you're acting like, yeah, I'm doing just fine here. But, man, you are exhausted from holding that basketball under the, under the water. Because all it does is when it comes to, to the surface. And if you're using so much psychological energy, emotional energy to repress all those secrets, it's just not healthy. You're going to act out in some weird ways. And so you, you need to have somebody in your life, whether it's a trusted friend or like I said, a, a mentor or a counselor, a pro that you can confide in that can see your dark side. Right. And it's really important. Our dark side, our shadow self, we can never fully become integrated and whole and healthy people until we acknowledge our dark side. Until we go, yeah, I tend, you know, let's remove it from sex for a second. I tend to have a quick temper, we might say. And in acknowledging that, you take some of the pressure away from it.

Yeah.

Just acknowledging it.

It.

If you're going, no, I never get Angry? Yeah, really angry right now. And so it's that kind of denial and that kind of repression and that kind of defensiveness and that kind of just suppression. Consciously doing that repression is, is unconscious. Suppression is conscious. Right? But all of that, why are you taking all of your emotional energy to just keep that stuff under the surface? Now? That doesn't mean you share it with everybody, but you got to have an outlet to where you can relax and be known and accept it.

Right? Because if you're not, it just perpetuates the problem. You're just trying to keep this secret and you're never going to be known or accepted. And also you're never going to have the resource of someone else being able to help you process through whatever that is, whether it's anger, pornography, whatever it may be.

That's exactly right. Because there's no reciprocity when you're doing that, when you're caught up with that. You have so much of stuff that is known to you but not known to others, your secrets. And you spend so much energy on that, you cannot, you cannot shift your focus away from yourself. It's like having a toothache and I can't think of anything else but my toothache. And it's. I can't focus on your pain. I can't focus on your stuff because I'm in pain myself. And so you. It's just so important. Come back. I'll say it again. Your relationship can only be as healthy as you are.

I just got a tingle down here from the tooth extraction I had last year. I can just feel it. I remember that pain well. Definitely.

Yeah, that's a powerful image. It becomes the lens through which we see everything else. And I think if we can take that positive because a lot of, you know, if we're not sharing something that's a secret in our life, it's very fear based. And we're fearful of the damage, we're fearful of the hurt and the pain. And I mean, we know it's not going to be an easy or fun situation. It's like, well, this would be better. But if we can see the flip side of the health that could come from it, of I'm removing something from my life that will actually increase my capacity to care about you and to care for you, to put your needs ahead of myself, that that might at least in some regard give us a little positive motivation to say this. This will make my capacity for a relationship with my spouse stronger if I'll deal with it. Because the lie that we listen to as well. You know, them not, you know, I don't want to hurt them with the lie when the truth is by them not knowing, you're already hurting more damage.

Totally.

Yeah, that's right. And it's, it's, it really all comes down to emotional safety. Right. You've got to feel emotionally safe in this relationship. And that means that you, you know, this person has your back. And if you don't have that, you know, what's the point really? You know, to share your income and have a house, a roof over your head. No, you want to have that bonded. That's the greatest fulfillment in life is our relationship, our close ones. And by the way, are you guys familiar with the longest study that has ever been done on, well, being in our lives? It started 70 years ago at Harvard. It's a longitudinal study. Are you guys familiar with this?

I think a little bit, yeah.

The bottom line of that study, and they look at a life well lived and well being for everyone. It all, it had everything to do with relationships. Yeah. Didn't have to do with how much money you made or where you lived or what your title was or your career or whether you had a sailboat or any of the stuff that you might think is going to bring you happiness. The number one source of fulfillment and contentment and happiness is our relationships. And we need to do everything we can and fight like mad to keep our close relationships close and healthy.

Okay, Les, Most married couples struggle with some degree specifically around the topic of sex in their relationship. How can couples get better at communicating and in particular about their sex life without pressuring or guilting the other one? And I'm just saying, right now, me and my wife are in your love talk class at church. And so I'm expecting some like, little extra sauce on this one for sure.

Yeah. Communication is the name of the game. It's the lifeblood of our relationship. Right. It, it really. The sun rises and sets on communication in marriage. If that's not going well, nothing is going well. And so it's like anything, you know, it's like money or any other topic that might be difficult in laws disciplining the kids. Sex all goes into the same bucket. You need to have a sense of understanding. Right. That comes through empathy. And so if one of you. This sometimes happens, it'll happen on money and it'll happen on, on sex. One person in the relationship just feels kind of anxious, uncomfortable talking about sex. And the only way to get over that is to desensitize yourself. To it. So the way you can do that is read a book together on sex. The book I wrote. Crazy Good sex. Great way to do that as a husband and wife. But there's plenty of other sheet music by Kevin Lehman or whatever. El Just find a book that you can both read and read it out loud together. And what that does is desensitize you to even some terminology, you know, as a training psychologist, when I was in graduate school and. And we were taking this, I. I had this course on. On human sexuality. And the professor had each of us, there's like, I don't know, 15 students in the classroom. And she said, one of the biggest challenges you'll find as a therapist when it comes to human sexuality is just the anxiety that some people have talking about it. And you cannot emit that anxiety. It's contagious. As a therapist, you can't do that yourself. And so she said, I want each of you to do something. And she said.

She.

She happened to choose me first in.

The classroom, of course.

And she said, Dr. Parrott. And none of us were doctors yet. Called us all doc.

Nice.

She said, Dr. Parrott. She said, come up to the front of the classroom. And I'm like, okay. Standing up there. And she said, I want you to read what's on this card. Okay? So she hands me this card and it's. I said, penis. She said, that's right. Say it again. And she said. And I said, penis. She said, all right, now say it again. But now I want you to have eye contact and say it to each person in this classroom. And so. Penis.

Penis.

I'm going around.

Yeah.

Totally nervous laugh.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

So weird, you know, And. And then it kind of dies down. And then she goes, all right, before you sit down, I want you to read this card. Vagina. We go through the whole thing.

Oh, man.

And then the next student comes up, does the whole thing, and, you know, we're laughing at certain points and giggling and so forth. And then by the end, we're just like, yeah, like, wrap this thing up. Penis, Vagina, Penis, vagina. We get it, we get it, we get it. You know? Yeah. And you just desensitize yourself to having kind of this, Ah, what are we talking about here? Right? And the same thing happens when a couple can begin reading a book about the topic and kind of relax into the terminology about it. Does it make sense?

Totally. Yeah. It's so great. I don't think we realize all of the pockets of fear, shame, pain that we have around sexuality until we try to talk about it. And then it all comes up and we just get, we get uncomfortable and so we don't talk. And I love that suggestion of just read together and hear yourself saying it out loud. And I've told people, start with the low hanging fruit, start with the things you know, you agree on and just appreciate about each other and work your way into the more challenging stuff to talk about. Because when we communicate, when we can feel like we're on the same page with our hopes, expectations, it just is a real game changer. And so, Les, we're so glad to have had some time with you today. Would love to have you tell our listeners what are you working on now and what are ways that they can catch up with you and your work.

Well, the thing I would suggest for folks, if they're watching this, they'll see me hold this thing up. And if they're just listening, it's called Better Love, featuring the five love languages. And you can learn more about it@betterlove.com It's a little tool, little assessment tool. And when I say assessment, I know immediately some of our viewers and listeners are going, well, that's the last thing I want my relationship as an assessment. It's not that kind. You can't pass or fail. You don't get graded. It's really a customized roadmap for lifelong love. Here's how it works. You each go online, you ask, I mean, you answer a series of questions. Takes about 10 minutes, 9, 10 minutes for most people. And you each do that separately. And then it generates this little customized roadmap for lifelong love. It's about 10 pages. It's infographic, it's super fun. Comes with this action plan for date nights. 4 really fun date nights. There's no shame, there's no blame, there's no condemnation, it's just a really fun way to get in sync. It'll do two things for you. It'll heighten your self awareness, which is the hallmark of emotional health. And then secondly, it'll deepen other awareness, which is empathy, self awareness and other awareness. And empathy, I think is the single most important skill set we have as human beings to see the world accurately through somebody else's eyes, especially our spouse. And so what we do in the Better Love assessment, again, it's@betterlove.com and by the way, it's $35. It's not going to break the bank. It's less than you're going to spend on dinner probably tonight. And. And the first thing we do is look at how God designed you. You know, what's the DNA of your two personalities and what happens when they come together? You know, there's never been a marriage like yours before, and there never will be again. It's like two thumbprints. You're creating something very unique. That's why certain things work for you and don't work for your friends and vice versa, because of this unique chemistry between the two of you. And so we take that, apply it to all the usual suspects, including sexuality and communication and conflict and managing time together and. And all kinds. And then we get into love languages, which is an incredibly important thing. And Gary, you know, the author of that Incredible book is 84 years old. And I said to Gary, you know, this was about three years ago. I said, man, we want this to be around for a long, long time, and we want you to be around for a long, long time. And so he said, let's put it in into the better love assessment so people can really begin to apply it in a really special way. Because we do something in the assessment that you can't do by just reading the book or even answering a few questions. We use our algorithm to look at the chemistry between your two love languages in relationship to your love tank. So anyway, betterlove.com that's the thing I would urge people to check out.

We'll put in the show notes. And just so you know, I've been paying attention. Analysis plus sympathy equals empathy. I love that, by the way. And love talk. That's a really good.

Oh, there you go. You got to analyze as well as sympathize.

That's right.

Two wings of an airplane.

Let's have you back on to do that one. Another time. Les, thank you so much, man, for your time. I know it was a quick one, but we appreciate you making time for it. We appreciate the work that you do.

Absolutely, guys, and what a great work that you do. It's been an honor to have you, nick, on. On loveology.org that I mentioned. And just to know that you're helping so many people that desperately need it. So thanks so much.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal, trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode up on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.