318 - Stories Of Healing: Josh & Shawna Putnam

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy day to you, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 318 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stempo.

I'm coming back to. Oh, my gosh.

Okay. Who originally. Do you remember who originally was that Matt Redmond song it's all about?

I'm missing the whole thing, so just sit back and relax. Redmond sounds. Yeah, Matt Redmond. That sounds right.

Somebody want to look it up?

It's one of those songs that like has a great story behind it and then it got so over sung and.

Oh my gosh. That's a 90s worship song, right?

Yeah, I think late 90s, early 2000s.

Yeah. What Matt Redmond, what do you know? He also wrote a book called Heart of Worship, so I guess that's okay. So. So we had Josh and Shauna Putnam on today to share their story of healing. And Josh so happens to be the worship pastor at the church that you and I go to, which is why I'm guessing you picked the late 90s Matt Redmond song.

Yeah, you know, worship leader worship song. I think also the heart of that song, if you will, is really how the form of something can in many areas of life become more important than the substance or what it's actually about. And that's what Matt Redmond was saying was like, we've made this whole 30 minute worship set with the lights and the guitars and, and the acoustics and whatever else, we've made that more important than actually coming before an all living, you know, all powerful God and worshiping him for who he is. And I think in a lot of what we're going to hear in today's story of healing with Josh and Shauna is how maybe his need for reputation and for esteem became more important than actually what he was being. Estee. And for any one of us, I think that's a huge part of our story, is the facade. The external appearance is something we start to protect even when maybe internally we're crumbling and God has to, in his gentleness and truth, bring us to a place where we finally confront that to say, you know, who cares what it does to my image or reputation? I've got to deal with what's going on in the inside and kind of come back to the heart of who God's really calling me to be. And so I just, I feel like that was a big theme in today's Talk and the whole worship leader thing, the song is what came to mind. So there you go.

Well, I mean, let's just carry that a little further. He just so happens to be the worship leader for this year's summit.

Is that confirmed?

That is a confirmation.

Nice.

Yep. Josh Putnam. So. And Josh is a buddy of mine. He's been a friend for a while, but he is. And I'm not just saying this, he's one of the best worship leaders I've ever heard. He's incredibly talented, and I will tell you that you should come to the summit anyway. But if you like really good worship, then there's, like, this added little bonus. But I don't know, can you think of other reasons why people should come to the summit?

You know, that pretty much covers it. No, I agree. There's something about a worship leader who has his own story, and it's like it comes across in the feel and the style. And people who've been at the summit last year could probably agree and just be like, man, there's something meaningful to it. And to me, that is just like one snapshot of the number of people who said, oh, and then in the, you know, the foyer, I had this conversation with someone, and it helped me in this way. And then we went out to dinner with friends, and this moment happened, and then I went to a breakout and God showed me this and. And the next speaker. It just feels like the summit is full of these moments that. That we can't recreate anywhere else. And. And we don't want you to miss it because we all feel like there's need for encouragement in our healing. And whether we're in year one or year 25, like, it's that moment of perspective and clarity and. And new insights and direct. Fuels us for another year of what God is calling us to. Whether we're leading group or in a group or just looking to be a good parent, spouse, friend, whatever the case might be, the summit is full of those moments. And so we don't want you to miss them. And we'd love to see you and get to have some of those moments with you.

Yes. September 15 and 16. And it's in person. You can watch it online, watch party host sites. It's awesome. There's a lot of opportunities to see this event and be a part of it. And you can register@puredesire.org summit. All right. Subscribe to the podcast. All the major platforms. I say it every week. I know, I know, I know. Write us a review. Write Us a review. Write us a review. Okay. Also, follow us on social media. Euedesirepdmi. We are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, and I think that's it. Let's just get into the episode. Here is Josh and Shauna Putnam's story of healing. Josh and Shauna Putnam, thanks for being here. We're really excited. How do you guys feel?

We're happy to be here.

Yeah.

Thanks for inviting us.

A little nervous. Yeah.

Which is funny because we'll get into it, I'm sure, a little bit. But you literally sing in front of like, a thousand people every single weekend at church, and you're nervous to sit across the table from Nick and I.

Yes.

We both go to your church.

We've heard some of that. Yeah. You know, like.

Yeah. So, okay. Well, this is actually. We originally had it slotted for you guys to come on a while ago to share your story, and some people who have kept up with us maybe have seen your story of healing. There's an aspect of it that we have that we've put online, and it's even in the group pathway that we have. So either way, we're excited to finally hear the story of healing, and we love these opportunities because it creates really just an experience where people can hear both sides, that it's not just, this is what I was going through when I was struggling, but also how it impacts a marriage and where you guys are at now and how it affects parenting. And so just keep that in mind as we get into these questions. So the first question is really just looking at family of origin, and this is going to be for both you guys. What was it like in the culture in your home when it came to sex and sexuality? And how do you feel like that informed where you're at or really what brought you to the big struggles?

Yeah, I can start on that one. We didn't talk about sex and sexuality. I'm one of six kids. I'm fifth.

I did not realize.

I know, but. Which I take offense to personally.

Sure. Where are you in the order?

I'm the fifth. Yeah. So my mom was pretty checked out. She was working nights, and so she just had nothing left, I think just chemically imbalanced. And so now she's a completely different person. I mean, she's the best grandma ever, but she wasn't really present mentally for my upbringing, so that was part of it. But also, we just didn't really talk about sex and sexuality. She has this story, my mom does of us on a walk, me and her she says, I was nine, but she kind of itched her pants. And I said, mom, don't itch your penis in public. And she had to explain to me at nine years old, wow.

Yeah, some human anatomy there.

So. So that was a thing. And then when I was. Yeah, what. I mean, I went to a private Christian school, so we had, like, the talk at school and all the dads came in. It was a really cool thing, but my dad did not want to have the talk with me and basically just refused. Like, I was. I would always ask him, like, dad, everybody's getting the talk. What is the talk? What is. What are we talking about? And, oh, you know, just dodge. And when I. When I started to get into pornography at the. On the home computer. And we'll get into this, I'm sure, in other questions, but, you know, my mom found out I've got viruses on the computer and what's going on? Figured out it was me. And my mom is kind of facilitating the whole thing, and she wants my dad to have the conversation with me. And so he sits me down on my bed in my room, and we're sitting there, and it felt like I didn't even understand what he was talking about. He wasn't making any sense. I wasn't in trouble, which was really weird because I knew what I was doing was wrong, and it was just this weird experience. And so that was kind of my family of origin. We didn't really talk about it. There wasn't a ton of shame around it. It just wasn't a conversation. And I learned most of the stuff from youth group.

Yeah, totally.

In a positive way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then for me, my parents divorced when I was five, and so, yeah, both my folks, though, were believers. And so I was raised knowing that, you know, knowing biblical truth, I suppose. And both my parents had wholesome values. And I would say, like, as far as sexuality in the home, like, I learned a lot from shows and TV and then piqued a lot of curiosity at a young age. And I think just being set up with the divorce at a young age, around five, it. It really geared me to be more susceptible towards fascination. I didn't know it until maybe later, way later in life, like fantasy, you know, Like, I remember staying home from school and seeing soap operas and things like that, that would just give me, like, you know, just curiosity. And so, yeah, just having that void of what I was going through with my folks, not realizing that was setting me up to be, I would say, a love addict. Like, now that I know the terminology through pure desire, but just more fascinated towards that. But as far as, like, the culture in the home, I would say just. I just always knew there was shame around it. So that's how it felt. It felt like if my parents knew that I was, like, watching this or seeing it, it always felt like a, you know, no, that's naughty and stuff, but it was not really talked about as to why or. Yeah, it felt just sh. Shameful. So it wasn't an easy thing. And even still, it's just awkward to navigate. Like, you know, like, the fact that I have sex with my husband feels a little bit awkward. I don't know. Maybe everybody feels that.

I mean, not in the moment. In the moment, you know, she doesn't feel that way at all. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying. Good Lord.

It's just hard to shake off when you're raised in that culture. Like, then you get married, and it's.

Absolutely very real thing.

It's amazing how much that is. I think everyone's story, and maybe not every single person, but to some degree, we did not grow up in environments that knew how to talk about sexuality in a normalized way. And then we get into marriage, and it's just like, well, good luck. Figure it out, you know, And. And I think everybody hopes that it's going well, but even then, no one knows how to talk about it. And then we raise kids and we create the same awkward conversations unless we've been brought to places where we deal with it, and that's the story we want to get into. And so for you, Josh, when did you realize that sexual brokenness, pornography, was a problem? And then also for you, Shauna, what was your awareness of it? Was there any awareness pre marriage that this is the kind of thing guys struggle with, or was it not until marriage that you discovered something of Josh's story? So for both of you, where did this kind of become an issue?

Yeah, I mean, I. I knew from the beginning that pornography, lust was wrong. And all the way through, I never really had a moment in my addiction where I was resigned to it. I just was always against it. I was just totally stuck. And it was just clear from my upbringing that this stuff is wrong. So I didn't really have a moment when I realized, oh, this is all kind of messed up. I knew from the beginning I was very confused by all of it. When I kind of stumbled into it, I was very confused. But I also knew, oh, I shouldn't be doing what I was doing.

Yeah. But so Was there a point where you were like, I really need to stop or this is going to be a problem in my marriage if I don't stop or what?

Oh, yeah.

Maybe the first real attempt to say, this isn't just thing that boys do. This is like, this is going to be a problem if I don't change.

I never even felt like it was a thing that boys do. I always felt like it was a problem. And I made these goals in my head. Oh, when I'm a sophomore, I'm going to be free from this.

Look how arbitrary the goals are. You know, when I'm 13 and a half, I'm going to stop. You know, it's like. But we do.

Yeah.

Sophomore, junior, senior. These are all literally happened. I remember thinking, and then all these other milestones, okay, I'm out of grades in high school to quit, and I'm out. I'm okay. So. Well, when I get married, I definitely have to have this beat. Well, that wasn't the case. And then. And when I have my first kid. And while we were kind of. That's kind of part of our story is we had a stillbirth with our first. That was my rock bottom. And I heard somebody say recently, you get to choose your rock bottom. I thought that was excellent. But anyway, we're kind of getting ahead probably in the story, but just all of these milestones, just realizing and just.

Adding on to that, Josh has kind of like a log because he's written so many songs and so, so many of his earliest songs are him wrestling with this. And you can hear. I mean, it's very blatant, you know, in some of the lyrics, but it's neat for me. Just like, you know, he. You just. You asked me about it with Josh. He did tell me early on in our even, I think, as friends, that that was something he'd dealt with. And so it didn't take me by surprise when we. When I basically had the moment in our first year of marriage that I, like, discovered his phone and saw what he had searched. I didn't see any photographs, but I saw the search history. And anyway, I wasn't taken by surprise, but it was. It was still shocking. I didn't. I was in the dark that that was still in our marriage at the time. Yeah, but it wasn't like, again, I knew Josh's heart. I always knew Josh's heart was. That was not something he wanted to deal with, and it was something he was willing to fight to the end for restoration. I just think he Was ill equipped, unfortunately. And he was, you know.

Yeah, well put.

So what were. Cause I mean, you know, it's wrong when you're young and you're setting these like mile markers. By this point I'm going to be done with it. There had to have been some things that you tried, like either books you read or people you talked to or whatever. So that's kind of the first part is for you and then even the second part, Shauna, for you. Like once you found out, what were some of the strategies you guys used? So Josh, your strategies before marriage and then what were the strategies together that you tried to battle this addiction?

Yeah, I. I had reached out to different people to kind of. I didn't know even know what getting help looked like. I'd never heard of groups until I got into one. But I would just one off message people at low moments and, and just throughout my life. Mayday. Mayday. Including pastors too. I had two pastors that I talked to. One was actually helpful, but the other was like, yeah, we as guys kind of struggle with stuff like this. I'm like, are you saying you're struggling too? Like, yeah, you're supposed to be like put together and have at least point me where to go. Now I feel really hopeless because if you're stuck. So anyhow, that was one strategy. And just being, you know, I was raised in the church. I loved the Lord. I remember. I don't even think I've shared this with you. I shave my head and I fasted for three days as a young person. But like this was an example of extremely biblical of you. I know, very biblical. Totally.

Do you put ash on your head too?

We didn't have any at the time. It was summer.

Summer.

I think we were dating and I was not into the haircut at the time.

Oh, we were dating.

I mean, looking at your hair now, I can tell why. Like, he's got gray hair.

Why would you. Yeah, okay, she cuts it.

It's fine, keep going.

And so I was taking what I felt like were pretty extreme, definitely socially measures to try to fix this thing that I just had no clue. I just was ill equipped and I. But I also was. I was self protecting my own. I was keeping myself safe and insulated from revealing my true self. Really?

Yeah, I see that too. Just because even in our early. Because we sadly had a very long, like I want to say six years. That was just that, that attempt, Josh, you know, like the staggered disclosures and him trying, trying but in his own. Because there was Nothing. We didn't. It's not that we. There was nothing. I think that what I'm tacking on to what he said about the, like, insulating himself, he could have, in hindsight, should have sought out more this, this ministry, for example, like quick Google search or something like that. But at the time it felt like there was nothing, There was no one. But also, that is a production mechanism and a procrastination. Yeah, totally.

So did you feel. I think I know you guys well enough that I can ask this. If you're not comfortable answering, just let me know. But did you feel Sean, and knowing that was still a part of his story, did you feel pressure then as a wife, like, well, I've got to fix him. I've got to help be a part of making things better. How did you navigate what I feel a lot of spouses can feel in that area?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think for me, I had more of the ultimatum reaction of probably as a protection mechanism as well. But just like, yeah, that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to shove his face in it and make it, you know, give him ultimatums. If you don't, then whatever. So I'm sure that kept him in the dark even more, wanting to hide from me even more. But I felt like that was my. Maybe that's just the way I was raised with two older brothers. Like, I had to, you know, put up a fight or whatever, but be tough. Totally. So I didn't have like more of that. I don't know if you'd call that enabling. Like, I don't know. I didn't take the responsibility. I definitely felt like you better shape up, you know. But it was a tough combination because Josh is wired a bit more like shame based already. So he's like, tail between his legs, tail between his legs. And then I'm more like shove the puppy's face in the poo kind of thing. And it just was not a great combination, honestly.

Yeah, well. And henceforth what you describe is just kind of the six years of the chaos and difficulty. And I think a lot of people can relate to that, whatever strategies they try, tried, whether it's the hard line of, you know, change or else, or more the soft line of, hey, let's fix this together by trying to have enough sex that you don't need it anymore. I mean, on both sides of that, people find this isn't really changing things. We're just stuck in kind of the same cycle. And so you, you mentioned it, but as you look back during those six years, like, what were some of the hurdles or maybe barriers that kept you from seeking out help from other places? Maybe pursuing like in depth counseling. Like, were there things that you feel kept you from pursuing some of that?

What comes to mind right now is image management, I think is probably the biggest one, like for both of us. I think I wouldn't even personally, I probably wouldn't want people knowing that my husband struggled with that because that's, you know, I didn't know other people who were dealing with this. So it was kind of like, let's just fix this on our own. Let's fix this and then, you know, get it together.

Yeah, that was my thing too, is I wanted to protect whatever reputation I felt like I had. And you know, at the time and being young, I wanted to be a famous musician, songwriter, artist. It's like, well, that's not the best way to get famous, is to be the porn guy or something. Here we are. And so that, honestly, as silly as that sounds, that was a big motivating factor for me of keeping it small and keeping it mostly within myself. And then in, yeah, that staggered disclosure with my wife and then the couple people I could trust to try to kind of break out. But ultimately it came down to that lowest moment. And that was the thing I had to face was am I willing to be known as the porn guy? Like to have that be what other people think my identity is, Even though I don't feel like that's who I am, it's just something I'm struggling with at the moment, you know, back then. So, yeah, yeah, I feel like too.

A hurdle you guys probably experienced because what you're describing of like tail between your legs and then rub the puppy's face in it, that you guys were stuck in this pattern where there wasn't anything because you didn't let other people in. There was no one to help you break out of that cycle. So it just self perpetuated, which probably made you feel more shame and make you feel more angry.

Right.

And so it's just this huge. So. But you know, over time it's just gonna blow up.

Yeah, that pattern is dead now. And that has been a game changer for our marriage because I couldn't, I couldn't. Anger was too much. My dad was angry growing up, so I didn't want to be angry and I was never angry. I mean, no one in my life would have noticed me ever be angry because that was probably the worst sin in my mind. And I didn't want to be that part of my dad. But there is a healthy amount of anger and being able to do that without sinning, that's totally a thing. And that also means your anger gets you up in the morning to face some challenges. And so we do conflict completely differently. And that was 100% due to the pure desire process, is seeing how, okay, my brain is always responding in this one way, and I'm just in flight. I'm just in flight. And there's all these. There's freeze, which I don't want to try. I don't want to be in that category. And then there's fight, which I've never really tried. And so I kind of started toying with it in as much health as I could manage. And it started helping our conflict recovery. And that's all stuff. That's, like, the stuff we should have learned to try. These were the big hurdles, because for me, understanding that pornography and lust and all of that is a symptom of the problems that are going against the grain of God's design for us in life. And I was just. I was so. I was so living off of credit cards, of just, I can't be angry. And I. So I was all bottled up, and I had to pay for that somewhere.

Yeah.

And porn was where I paid for it, even though it was just credit card debt. It's not real. It's not real intimacy.

I feel like Dave Ramsey just, like, screamed out of excitement because of that illustration. I feel like that's a great illustration. So at some point, though, in our story, right, it just clicks. Everything just kind of comes together, and you feel like, okay, you finally understand what this whole thing is about and how to get better. What was that moment like for both of you? Tell us about that moment.

Do you want to go first?

Sure.

I would just say pure desire. Josh getting into a group, and it started clicking for him first. So that was exciting because I could just see he was. I mean, there was immediate fruit, there was excitement because he was. He knew he was on the road to recovery, and that was really exciting. And he was developing new language, like the faster scale, and just bringing me along with him. And it was just. It took something that had been obviously, such a hard and hidden and cyclical problem for a long time. And it became like, there is hope, There's a road, there's a path, there's clarity, and we're going to do this.

And so that started when you came to Good shepherd, right, the church. You're at now.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, so that probably happened a little bit more for her then. But I had started to experience that the six month to a year before that when I first got into my first group. So just a little timeline. We lose our son, Peter. We had a stillbirth at 18 weeks.

20 weeks.

20 weeks. I always say 20. And then you said 18. No, we're gonna have to fight about this.

Yeah, sure.

So 18 to 20 weeks. Do you want to role play what.

A fight would look like right now for the. No, I'm just kidding.

Go ahead. I already won.

Pay for that one later.

So we have this. The most tragic experience in my life. And I think you'd say the same thing. It devastated me. I couldn't get out of bed. It was three months of just depression. And during that time, you know, we're doing a lot of reflecting. And Shauna asked me just kind of out of the blue one day, like, so how are you doing? And how are you doing means, are you doing porn?

Yeah.

And I had a split second to decide, just like all the other times she'd asked me that. And I lied because of all of this cycle that we're talking about. And I asked her, do you really want to know? And you thought about it for a second, like, you thought about it. And she said, yes. And then I spilled the beans. And, you know, she was aware of some of this stuff over the years, and. But we were avoiding it. We were totally avoiding it. And we're just not going to really. We're just going to hope this gets better. And so that was the pivotal moment for me. That was rock bottom. And I devoted myself to going to this group that I found online, a bunch of old guys. And I go this first time, I share my story. I'm just bawling to them. I don't know these guys, and, you know, they're nice enough. But it's in a warehouse. I mean, the church wouldn't even. It wasn't even in, like, a church building. It was. The church owned a warehouse, and we were in the warehouse. And a lot of people have a tough time in those group environments. For me, it was really what I needed because I made the decision that I was gonna go every Wednesday, no matter if I had a good week or a bad week. And that was really helpful for me not to be also in this kind of weird relationship with my wife. And I saw this in the group where you had guys where their accountability partner is their wife. And it's just like, how are you even alive right now. And so having the help that I needed and actually getting some sobriety while also being able to maintain some health in our marriage and not have this, like, staggered relapse, you know, it just was difficult. And so she understood and was supportive of me and that process with so much wisdom. I think just hindsight, because we didn't know any of the pure desire stuff.

Yeah.

It was just him stepping into the light. I mean, it was a big deal. Really big deal. And I will say, too, like, when he mentions that conversation where he asked, do you really want to know? I think this is the first. I really felt like, you know, those maybe couple of times in life where you feel like the Lord, like, you hear his voice clearly. And for me, it was a moment, and I felt like I had a moment of, you've done this the same way every time, Shauna. Like, I heard the Lord say this to me, like, you've done this. Try something different, you know? And it was like. It took me a minute. My initial response was definitely anger, but I did think, like, why don't I try something different? Why don't I lend a different response this time? And. And I did. I had a moment where I realized, like, okay, I actually. I know that I'm not perfect either. Like, I actually. You know, my brain can go off on, like, fantasizing sometimes about a life that I don't actually have or something like that. And just there was a. It was a split second. But the Lord showed me, you're not perfect either. And I felt like in that moment, I decided to respond to Josh in that way and just. Just extend grace, like, for the first time. And that was. I know, for him and me both, that was also the beginning of, like, okay, let's do this together on the same team, instead of.

And that was the grace part of it is that I could see that she was willing to do it with me and not, you're okay or you're not at fault or anything like that. It was, she's my wife right now still and not right. Yeah.

Shoving his face.

That was huge. I did want to connect, too, because I started going to this first group for about a year, and I started to experience some sobriety, which I was legitimately surprised by, because I was under the illusion that literally 100% of all guys were me and struggling in the same ways that I was. I was convinced every guy, every pastor, everything. And so I was really disillusioned in that way. But when I moved up here and Got connected at Good Shepherd. I met Trevor at our church. I was new, a new hire at the church. And I connect with Trevor, and he's like, you should probably do pure desire. And I was looking for a group because I knew, well, I'm not at my old group. I don't want to fall back, and I need to keep this going. And so I got into peer desire group, and that's where I learned all these tools that I was not getting at my other group, which was great and useful for me and helpful. But I started to learn why I was experiencing some sobriety, some healthy male relationships that I really needed. And so I was learning all these tools as well. And a lot of that healing, I think, of my brain and understanding, oh, this is something that can be maintained. Came from pure desire. And that just really got me jazzed because I was nervous. I'm in the dark. I don't know why I'm not relapsing, because all my relapses in the past, what I don't know, I felt like. And so what if something comes out of the blue and I lose it?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Well, you guys are getting into some of the tools, and let's talk more about those. But I did want to just point out for listeners, you know, it's a beautiful part of your story, Shauna, offering grace to Josh and the way that you guys as a couple could address this issue. I just know for some people, that's not been their experience where they've maybe offered grace over and over and over, only to have it be abused or to become licensed. Oh, you know, she didn't seem that mad about it, and it became part of their pattern. So I just. I guess I want to say to listeners, like, every story is different, and the point isn't, well, here's the one magical way to get your spouse to change. I think what I'd point out from what Shawn has shared there is how she was listening to the voice of God about how she could respond. And I think in any marriage, if that's our heart, like, I need to know, what is the best way for me to respond. Because I think in some marriages, strong boundaries and a strong response of, I don't need to put up with this is appropriate. And in other circumstances, offering grace is what's needed. It's just every story, every situation is so different. But I love that what you guys described, I do think is the goal is, however possible, what could we do to get a couple to see we can actually Work on this together. And it doesn't mean we do the same things, that the journey is very different for the struggler and the spouse. But if there's some sense of we can both do our part and yet we can stay as a couple, that's powerful. And I think you guys found a pathway into that. And so let's go more into some of these tools that you're talking about. And for you, Shauna, like, what were things you discovered? What were some of those key elements that started to create a healthy environment in your marriage and create freedom for the long haul?

Did you say start with you?

Sure. Yeah. Well, I know that. I mean, just what comes to mind initially is the faster scale. I think that for me was and Josh, but it was like, I think that's actually what was the baby step. I think I listened to your guys podcast on that. So that opened the door to this podcast, which was also an amazing resource for me. Early on, before I had joined a group, I was able to just kind of binge on your guys.

When you said join the group, you joined a betrayal.

Yeah, I did. I eventually joined a betrayal and beyond group, which was amazing. But before that, I had done a lot, like, listened to, I don't know, tons of the episodes that were just so eye opening for me because it helped me to just continue down the path of realizing that I'm. Maybe I'm not manifesting in the same way or like my coping mechanism doesn't look the same as Josh's, but I too, get on the faster scale. I too have coping mechanisms. I hit relapse. Whether it's binge eating late at night or, you know, scrolling on my phone or whatever. Like, I. It was just the eye opening moment for me. I mean, moments. It was a time of life where I was learning so much and my mind was just being kind of renewed. And then, of course, the group was really powerful too. There's different elements that were just healing because, like, being in a group with other women and seeing like, there were beautiful women in my group. And so that alone was like, okay, all of these women are here, they're beautiful. Men are married to them, and they're obviously not the reason that their husbands are struggling. So that just helped me to like, affirm what Josh had already told me, that it wasn't like me and my body. It wasn't like he never wanted me to see it as a personal issue, but as a woman, that's a very natural feeling and reaction. So that was healing in itself. Just Sitting in a room with other women. So lots of things were pivotal. But I would say learning about the faster scale, you know, having it become more personal to me and realizing, like, Josh is a human, a sinful human, and so am I, you know?

Yeah. All of the tools are so good. I'll have conversations with especially younger guys who first get into group, and then they'll tell me, oh, it's not going very well, or different things. And I say, well, are you making your phone calls every week? No, we don't really do phone calls. How do you do it without the phone calls? And then like the double bind. How does that. What's the double bind again? I always get confused by that one. It's like the double bind is like what I live in. I live in the world, which is full of double binds.

Yeah.

And the double. And so if I can just talk about the double bind for a second is now I feel like I have to explain it. Can you explain it really quick and then I'll riff off of that?

Sure.

A double bind, a really easy way to say it is like a damned if you do, damned if you don't want to.

See, I didn't want to cuss. That was my real problem. That's fine. That's fine.

Glad we got that out there.

Yeah.

But that.

And that's not swearing. It's like damning something to hell is not, you know, Josh. Goodness gracious.

Each his own. So, okay, so you have to put.

The explicit tag on this episode. Josh, thanks a lot. Go ahead.

So if we already. Because I already said penis earlier, so never mind. We can cut all this out, right?

Nope, we are keeping it in.

Okay, so the double bind, you have. You have this thing where something is in your life that you don't want to have to face, and you don't want to have to face it, because whatever you do, you're going to have to face a consequence or a problem from it. And whether that's having a conversation with your wife about restrictions on your phone, that's a double bind. Because I want restrictions on my phone. But if I don't talk to her about it, then who's going to put the restrictions on my phone? Or. I mean, there's a million double binds and all of those. The word that kind of comes back is procrastination. And that was the thing for me is, in my life, if I have a lot of that going on in my life, I start to ramp up on that faster scale. And if I can manage procrastination and deal with my double binds. And that's just dealing with life. Like, that's just being healthy, paying your bills on time and doing these basic things you wouldn't think are related to sexual addiction, but. But end up being a bigger deal than trying to bat away a temptation or like a rubber band trick thing, trying these little hacks when you actually have to deal with your life and know where you are and kind of a little bit about where you're going. And the tools are really, really helpful to do that.

What I think so interesting about the answers we get to this question is they are tools. But it's not like I. I want to be careful with this. It's not that I was tempted, sitting at my computer at 12:30 at night to watch porn and masturbate. And I prayed really hard, and then things got better. Like, there are tools that are very holistic. There are tools that, using the double bind, understanding that it's not just that I'm a sexual person and that I have temptations that causes me to pursue porn and masturbation and just being around other people, you know, who are beautiful people that have husbands too. Like, that in and of itself was healing. But that's not like choosing to not freak out at your husband for relapsing. Again, like, that's so different. I just think it's so interesting because this question, we're looking for those, like, silver bullet things. And one of the things I've heard Nick say a lot, and I'm probably gonna butcher it, so if you'd like to just take it and run with it, you can. But that idea that, like, if you have to repair a ship, don't do it in the middle of a storm. Do it before you even set out to sea. So. And that idea of knowing that there are things that lead you down the faster scale to then get to relapse, because knowing that, okay, this thing that happened, this double bind, I had to face, I didn't do it. And now I feel shame about it, which means I'm procrastinating in other things, which makes you feel more shame, which makes me isolate and then. Right. And so it's just all connected. And that's what I love about really, the whole process, is that it's so connected with all aspects of who we are.

But initially, it's hard to make those connections totally possible.

Yes.

And now being on the other side of that, I see it everywhere that I am. I feel like a psychoanalyst. Because you guys have experienced this. Somebody walks in and you're like, yeah, I've got to read on this person. Because all of those things are.

You're doing it right now.

Yeah, Just you two.

Nothing. You don't have anything. Did I get your quote right?

You guys covered it.

Okay, good. Good to know. Okay, so this is. And I kind of go back to, Josh, what you said earlier about wanting to be this, like, fam. Musician and a songwriter and two, I'm sure you had aspirations. I don't know if it's to be a celebrity, but you have these things where you talked about image management. Because this is so private and so personal, Breaking out of that mold is really difficult. So what is it that caused you guys to get that courage to be like, no, no, no. We need to share our story, and people need to know what we're going through. What was that experience like for you guys?

I think Josh just kind of like. I think he had an opportunity to speak at young adults or high school group or something like that. Just being in the church, there's a lot of opportunity for that. Just. And so he just was like. He just got the courage to do it. And I was like, you go. Go for it. Behind you. Yeah.

We talked about it beforehand, though. I wanted to make sure she was okay with me sharing.

Always a good idea. I said many times, don't share anything on stage that will be a surprise to your spouse if your spouse is with you, like you said. I was with him. That's awesome.

Yeah. And I knew that that was a big deal for him to even consider that, because talk about stepping into the light. As you guys know, somebody in the church, prominent person in the church, to be willing to not be able to manage your image anymore. You know, it's all out there. But I thought that was an awesome part of the healing. It was kind of like a.

I.

Don'T know, I want to say closure, but that's never, like, done.

I think it felt like that's a good word because it's the very thing. It's the last thing I wanted, so. And that was the thing I needed to do to begin my journey in healing was to let go of my reputation. And, you know, I could have family members that listen to this podcast or, you know what I mean, or my bosses or whoever, and to just. That was the thing I had to decide back when I was deciding whether I was gonna go to that first group is, am I gonna be willing to let this be out in the open? And that answer, yes, just kind of for me, and I don't think this is for everybody, but for me, it had to carry through to my whole life. And. And I love it because I don't like doing this. I don't like, you know, I mean, this is fun now. It's fun to be with you guys, but, you know, it's a little bit scary.

A lot of it scary.

And when it's over, it's this reintegrating and it's allowing the Lord to work for the good. What was evil in my life and getting to do that with other young people. I love having this conversation with. With young guys and getting young guys into group, and I just love. I love that, because if I can get these guys in a decade before I got in, imagine where they're gonna go.

Yeah, I'm Pretty sure it's 75% of my current group. I got from Josh Putnam, by the.

Way, Sean, you mentioned you were with him, but did you have to navigate that for yourself at all? Of, like, if his story's out there, it means our story's out there. It means I'm, you know, I'm the wife in this story. And people can take things different ways or make their own judgments. Did you have to navigate any of that personally, of people knowing and being in a church where people knew your story?

I mean, not really. I mean, yeah, obviously I thought about it, but I didn't. I just trust him. Like, his character is so strong that, I don't know, like, people could think what they want and make the judgments that they want, but I.

What a babe.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. That's a hard question, because I do care what people think, but for some reason, it just felt, like, easy to let it go.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a statement of where you guys were at in terms of your marriage and seeing healing and recovery. There. There comes a moment of, like, our reputation is worth way less than the ability this has to make an impact for other people. Because you realize in the story, you're not alone. You're not the only couple. You're not the only ones. And you do have that thought of, like, man, if. If our story could help someone X number of years earlier than it did us, wouldn't that be worth it? And I think if you can see that perspective, then it is worth it. And, yeah, that doesn't mean it's fun or easy, but there's a perspective that says, this is good and it's healthy. And it's right to do because of the impact it can have on others.

Yep, totally.

So how, you know, speaking of that, as you look back now and you guys are a ways into your healing, how would you say, your relationship, you know, your marriage in particular, but just relationships in general, how have they changed since you began the healing journey?

You go ahead.

I had pretty much no relationships outside of our marriage, for all of our marriage. So I had a really difficult time managing. I wanted to have a guy friend here or there, but it was always. There was just weird vibes in the marriage about, like, well, I should really be spending time with my wife. It just got. It was confusing, you know, and I didn't know how to deal with that either. It's just totally different now. Like, I have male friendships that I love. Some of them are PD guys, you know, who I went through a group with. I have so many people I can lean on and so I feel stronger, you know, and I just have friends. I have friends and my friends are close with me and they've got my back and they know me and there's nothing hidden. And so the friendship thing is huge. Even my relationship with my parents is different because going through the pure desire process, at first it feels weird because you feel like you're dishonoring your parents.

You'Re blaming them for stuff.

Yeah, mom, you failed me here and dad, you failed me here and. And you almost have to do that to get to a place, at least for me, of forgiveness. And I was able to, I don't even know if I was consciously doing this, but I was able to like, let my past be my past and almost forgive my parents in that way for just the little ways they were ill prepared as well. And now I get to lean in with them about their lives. And they're always thanking me, like, thank you for bringing this up in my life. Whereas for my siblings, it's a little harder for them to talk with my parents about things. For me, I'm not even feeling like I'm confronting anybody. We're just having a conversation. And they feel honored by my ability to speak into their life. It's just like, how does this, this is such a blessing because I love my parents to death. I think they did an amazing job. And it's weird to say, but they never talked about sex. And then da, da, da, da da.

Totally.

And so my relationship with my parents has been super affected by that because they know me too now and my whole story is integrated. And so wherever I go, my Story comes with me. And it means that basically there's integrity there because I'm the same here as I am at church, as I am at home. And I mean, I'm cooler at home.

Cool.

But anyway, y' all get the point.

I think my answer to that question for our marriage anyway would be like, Josh has always. I've always admired him, like even just as a 19 year old when we met, you know, he's just carried something that I love, obviously, like a wisdom, I think. But he, I would say, went from a boy to a man. You know, he was a boy hurting boy, because he just still was stuck in those patterns that were formed as a little boy, literally, you know, and just like I was too, and you know, I was gonna say still am. I'm working on it, but I just, you know, it's constant.

Sure.

I don't know. But yeah, he's. I mean, his world's different. It's. Our relationship is worlds different and just daily getting better. But that was the pivotal moment for us was pure desire and then him getting into health. And then my respect obviously for him went way higher. And then I had a thought there and it slipped.

But one question, I'm curious because I know you guys have a couple of kids. What has that dynamic, being through pure desire, being through the recovery and healing process. How do you see that playing out in health, in your relationship with your kids?

I mean, the primary benefit there is, it's playing out in our relationship, especially in conflict and in conflicts with each other. They're so short and they're quick and they resolve, they actually resolve. So conflicts before there would be a moment of conflict. And usually it was a straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing. So there's all this built up stuff. And then I have a three day recovery, recovery from my heart. To really like accept her again. I build up these walls between us and she wouldn't want to really talk about it or resolve it. And so I would just go away and just into this anxiety, depression zone. And that fed into my addiction as well. And that was predictably pretty. Three days, a three day thing. Through the pure desire process and learning about the brain and how it works, I started to engage conflict differently and we started having quicker things where I wouldn't have this anxiety and depression. I would access anger. Like I would get angry, but I'd learn how to manage it in a way that I wasn't sinning and I wasn't so aggressive that I was intimidating her or anything. But I was still able to get angry rather than just suppressing anger. And it all just stays bottled up and costs me later. And so our conflicts went from three days to, like, three hours at first. And then that just works down to. I mean, I can't remember our last long conflict. It's like, usually 10 or 15 minutes, and I crack a joke and she laughs and it's over. You know, like, where we realize, okay, we kind of get what happened.

Yeah. And I remember what I was going to say about, like, my. My respect for him went higher, but I also felt like. And again, this isn't everybody's experience where the Lord blesses you in the process. But it really did feel like God was. Was blessing Josh and me, our relationship, because of us taking these right steps. It felt that way. Like, even this job of us being able to move and Josh getting basically a promotion, he was doing a totally different type of job, but a job that was security for our family. We had a little one. I'm so thankful. Again, this isn't everybody's story, but all of this happened while we had a tiny little baby. So it just, like most of our child rearing or, you know, raising children has been in health. And I'm so thankful for that because, again, like Josh said, they've been able to see us, you know, do conflict a lot better than we used to. And health, you know, it's just. It's such a blessing because we love being able to just be on the same team about parenting and loving our children. And it's just such a gift, especially knowing what it's like to have parents who, you know, had the conflict and it didn't work so well. Now it's just being on the same team and being able to let them be the focus of, you know, when things are hard. It doesn't have to be our drama that. That takes the cake. You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. We still have plenty of. We can see where our current problems affect our kids, especially Davey. He's five. And so we see when he notices we're having a conflict, and so he reacts after that, usually taking one of our sides. That's always how it goes. And so he decides and he'll come up and hit one of us is basically what happens. You know, we're like, we didn't teach you to hit. You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I know, and you've already talked about this, but, like, think, you know, maybe individually, but then also as a couple. What has the Lord opened up. As far as ministry opportunities, now that you have been in healing and recovery, what does that look like? Relationships? Maybe it's groups. Whatever it may be, what does that ministry look like for you guys?

Oh, man. I mean, there's two ways for me personally to like, look at this is one is pure desire related. So I've been able to get a bunch of especially young guys into groups, and that's just a blast. So that's kind of like the direct, obvious one. But there's a secondary one that going through the pure desire process has given me the skills to operate in life in a more consistent manner by God's design for how that works. So it means, like I'm in seminary right now through my church. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't have the right kind of confidence. Because it's not a confidence in myself, but it's a confidence in being able to take on responsibility that's been given to me. And embracing duty and responsibility has been huge just in this season. Again, it feels so unrelated to pure desire type stuff. But it's invaded my whole life. I work like crazy. Like, I come home and we have got this little hobby farm. We've got an acre almost. And so six days a week I work and we practice Sabbath on Fridays. So we have all day Friday and we prepare for Sabbath on Friday. And then we all rest and we play and we have fun and. And that's just a new paradigm for me because it was always about being lazy and saving conserving energy. And so I just. I'm a new person. I mean, I'm a completely different person. I like being me. And I used to hate myself. Hate myself. So it's just affected everything. I mean, it's affected all of the things that I'm. That I take the risks to do are because of going through this process. And it's worth. Life is worth the risks.

Totally.

That's good. That's real good.

That's cool.

Very cool.

And I know that you guys have been involved with groups, you know, and leading it too. And I know, you know, and I mean, I'll talk you guys up a little bit too, like you being up front, which really means you guys are up front. Like you're this known entity in this community that worship pastors every once in a while able to kind of sneak in some truth, you know what I mean? In between songs and stuff, some of them overdo it. And we'll pray for those guys. But Putnam doesn't do that for sure. But I know that it's able to bleed out in that way too, that you being a real person who's acknowledging emotion, acknowledging pain. I remember you had the opportunity to get up and talk about addiction in a sermon not that long ago. And having that opportunity because of your position, you're able to influence in ways that the church normally isn't influenced, you know, so, yeah, definitely some good opportunities there.

Yeah. Well, we, we so appreciate you guys and your story and the ways you've told it and been an encouragement in the local church. As Trevor mentioned, as you, you know, think about your story and people listening to this episode. What. What's a word of encouragement that you would just want to leave people with today? What's. What's kind of a. Either a summary thought or kind of the big idea for me, like, man, this is what really stands out to me that I'd want to encourage someone else with today.

Do you want to take the lead?

I'm curious what you would say, but I have like maybe cliche, cliche. There's hope and you're not alone for sure. So do it. Get in a group, get healthy.

It's not cliche at all.

It's legit. Yeah, it's hard to do. Yeah, mine is similar to that. Just let now be your rock bottom because. And maybe you're the type of person who likes to research everything before they could jump in. I'm kind of that way as well. And you've come up with all these reasons, but the reality is you're stuck. If you know you're kind of stuck and you're not doing some of these things, get in a group, just suck it up and do it. Take a deep breath and make that initial contact and do it right now. And I don't think you'll regret it. But if you're not going to do it now, you're probably not going to do it.

One of the things I've loved just listening to you guys story is that it's really clear that the recovery process, the healing journey has impacted every aspect of your life. It's not just something that you've stopped this behavior, but you know, you still have conflict or you're still hiding in the dark or whatever. Like you guys are out in the open and have allowed this to. And I think you even used the word invade, like just invade every dynamic of your life. And that's inspiring. I think that that's ultimately what this whole process is about, is becoming a better follower of Jesus more into who he's created us to be. And it's very clear that you guys are doing that. And so we really appreciate. I know that you guys have shared your story before, but I do know that it's an extra layer of vulnerability when you're on camera and when you're on a podcast. And, yeah, we just appreciate you guys getting childcare to come in and sit with us. So we love you guys and thanks for sharing your story.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you so much. And just. We just are endlessly grateful for this ministry, so.

Yeah. And thank you for pursuing us just along the way.

Yeah.

You reaching out to me back in the day to jump into Pure Desire group that I never experienced.

Yeah.

And talking with Shauna about the trauma of having divorced parents, that was like, totally blew her mind.

So.

And both of you guys, I mean, I nerded out on you guys before I really knew you, you know?

Yeah.

I'm like, I remember going up to Nick for the first time to say hi, and it was just at church, just busy, and he's like, saying hi to all these people, and I'm like, it's Nick Stumbo. I'm so excited. That's awesome.

We love it.

Yes. Thank you. Yeah, no, totally. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from a wanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never something Sam.