319 - Talking With Your Young Kids About Sex

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 319 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Never gonna give you up Never gonna let you down Never gonna run around desert you yeah, yeah.

Oh, you know what's funny? That song. I'm pretty sure that song said Ted Lasso. And they make this huge deal of it and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's that guy's name. I have no idea. I have no idea. I can't remember. I can't remember, like, who.

You know, I think it's the. The singer's name. Rick Astley.

Okay.

And for a long time in youth culture, you could be Rickrolled. I don't know if you heard about this, but the whole thing is you would, like, give someone a link or say, oh, you need to check out this funny video. And then it would be this song and you got Rickrolled. If someone could get you to click on a link and.

Cause you can't get the song out of your head.

Yeah, my girls were all over that for a little while. But yeah, that's not why I brought it up. I think it pertains to today's episode quite well.

Okay, fantastic. Well, we had Rodney and Tracy Wright on today, and Rodney is our advancement specialist. Tracy is a clinician, and they have written a book that we will talk about a little bit more. How to talk with your kids about sex. And we had them specifically today on to talk about how we talk to our young kids about sex.

Yeah. And I think the song. You know those words. I'm never going to give you up Never going to let you down. I think as parents, we maybe feel that pressure of I've got to do it perfectly. I've got to know all the right words to say at all the right times, and if I do, I'll raise perfect children. And some of that is what we discussed today, just to let go of the expectation of perfection and instead move towards humility, openness, and helpful conversations, even at young, young ages. And because many of us have never really thought through, what does that look like? And it's very rare that we had it modeled well for us in our families by our parents, we're not going to do it perfectly. We're not always going to know exactly what to say or when. But I think today's episode is just chock Full of great ideas. And whether you currently have young kids or you plan to in the future, or even if your kids are grown and you feel like, well, maybe my time's done. I think there's great insights here into creat that connection with your adult children and potentially grandchildren. Because we're all a part of creating, I think, a healthy narrative around sexuality in our culture to some degree or another. And whether that's within our own home, the churches we attend, the families we're a part of, we're all a part of this. So even if you're single and have no kids, you're like, oh, well, maybe I'm going to tune out on this one. I think there's a lot here for all of us to just understand. How do we create these environments? And particularly then if we are parents of young kids, man, this is a home run for you, so enjoy it.

Absolutely. And I think this is. There's no greater time to really talk about this resource that they have written. I think this is one that we know is really important. There's a lot of interest in this, and I think you and I have had this conversation a lot. That parents wanting to help their kids is a really easy entry point to get this conversation started with an individual. And so their book, how to talk with your kids about sex is a great resource. Nick, maybe tell people a little bit about the book, why they should get it, how it'll be helpful, how they could use it.

Yeah, man, if you haven't read it, you need to. It's kind of not recommended. It's like required reading, I think, for parents and to understand not just the technique of the conversation, but understanding, more importantly, the culture that we create in our home and with our kids. And that's, to me, what that book is all about. And you mentioned this, Trevor and I just wanted to double down on the idea that if you're a pastor, a leader, or just a parent and you're trying to figure out, how do I have these conversations with other parents? This would be a great book to introduce to your small group or to a. A church group, a Sunday school class for young parents. I mean, I just think this would create ideal conversations not only about your parenting, but it's also maybe a helpful way to initiate some conversations about, well, what's going on in my own life that may encourage someone to pursue health and recovery for themselves. Whereas if you just go to someone and say, you seem unhealthy, you need to deal with your stuff like they're like, whoa, out of my face.

Yeah.

But when you talk about man want to equip you to be a great parent, they're going to see in the book, like, man, maybe the key to being a great parent in this area for my kids is have I addressed my sexual brokenness. So a great way to start conversations and to consider doing a book study around with others that might be in this season of life.

Yeah. So if you want to grab a copy of this book or grab it for someone else, you can go to PureDesire.org how to to grab how to talk with your kids about sex. All right, subscribe to the podcast. Write a review. It is very, very helpful for us and it means a lot. You can also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And with that, here's our conversation with Rodney and Tracy Wright on talking with your young kids about sex. Rodney and Tracy Wright, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Great to be here as always.

Where are you guys right now? Just so people know the reaches that the podcast has today, we're coming from.

You from the state of Sonora, from the country of Mexico, where we're doing some international work down here even as we speak.

That's awesome.

So good. Okay, well, we don't want to get too much into translations and all that stuff, but as our resident authors and experts when it comes to parenting around the topic of sexuality, wanted to have you guys on today. And as you can see right here down the center, you guys wrote a book literally on this topic. And at some point on a podcast, we'll talk about how we fought about the title for a while, but how to talk with your kids about sex. And today we're talking about how to talk to your young kids about sex. And honestly and selfishly, I'm really excited about this conversation because this is the season of life that I'm in specifically. So we're just gonna jump in and we're gonna lean on you guys, experience the wisdom you have and the tools. So the first question is statistics kind of give us a ballpark of the average age of exposure to pornography being somewhere between nine and seven years old. Seven and nine years old. If we know this to be true, why is it so difficult for parents to bring this topic up in the house with their kids?

Well, many times it just comes back to the individual, the family of origin, the families we grew up, how comfortable were they talking about sexuality? And many times even our faith communities, how open were they about talking about human sexuality? So I Think it's awkward talking to our kids because many times it's awkward talking about it in general. So this is just where the more we familiarize ourselves and understand some of these things, the easier it is to have that conversation when you're seven, because you're not starting at seven. You've started long before there's. And therefore it creates a comfort of just normalizing your body and sexuality.

I think there is an understanding, too, more and more that we do need to talk about it at younger ages. So I think parents are understanding that. So we find with parents, most of them didn't have a lot of conversation in the home or in their faith communities about sexuality. But people are realizing that in the culture that we live in, in the access that is so EAS and exposure that is so widespread, that we really do need to start younger and that our kids are being exposed younger, even if we're trying to protect them.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about when I heard this question was, I think many of us make assumptions that, oh, well, not my kid. My kid doesn't need to know that. I mean, even when we hear, like a number of seven to nine years old, we think really, I mean, maybe some kids without parent involvement, but my kids, I'm sure, you know, that's not an issue. And yet our kids are growing up in a very different culture than we did. And so we can't just assume that they're somehow going to be immune to that or not be a part of that statistic. And so it does invite us to say we need to start having conversations earlier and earlier. And I think maybe the other piece that can get in the way is as parents, when we think about this phrase, talking with our kids about sex, we maybe think like the whole nine yards, like the whole sex talk. And it's like Little Johnny at 7 years old was just like. Like, I can't imagine why he would need to know all that well. And that may be the case that they may not need to know the whole nine yards, but they need to start to have some framework, some language, some context around their body and sexuality and understanding why we do or don't do certain things. That doesn't mean you're going to explain the particulars of the entire, you know, connection between a male and female body. That's something that you. What we've said a lot is you need to take the cues from your child. Like when you start to introduce some of these conversations, if. If they seem really eager to know more or they bring up, yeah, here's things I've heard and they don't understand. Then you may need to go deeper into the conversation with that child. Where, and I've seen this in my own four kids, like when we started having conversations, some of them was like, oh, thanks dad, you know, what's for dinner? And then a couple of our others were like, wow, why? You know, and they had follow up questions and you could just see that they needed to have a deeper understanding. So in that regard you can take the cues from your kid, but it just. The reminder is. Yeah, when we say talk to your kids about sex, we don't mean the entire ball of wax right away. So it's an incremental process.

Well said, Nick. Sometimes we assume intercourse rather than. We're just sexual beings, male and female. And so starting off from just this is how we're made sexual beings in God's image. And creating that narrative creates a much easier way to build on this conversation.

Totally. I think another thing too, and I just can imagine maybe someone who's in this season where it is uncomfortable for them to talk about sex, to not beat yourself up, because a lot of us were not given a model of what that looks like with our parents. And so you're operating off the script that you were handed. And so keep that in mind that you can change the script and flip and flip it and make it new, but just know not to shame yourself because you feel awkward about it.

Yeah.

And a lot of parents are concerned about overexposure. They really. You don't want to. I was that parent, you know, I don't want to overexpose my kids. So I wait and wait, you know, and then we don't know what to say. I'm waiting because I don't want to overexpose them. And I really don't know what to say. So I think that's part of that is preparing yourself. And we're going to talk more about that today, I think, but preparing yourself.

And the flip side of that is under educate. Overexposed under educate. And I think that's where sometimes we've lacked it. Just we've under educated our kids. Someone else be the educator.

Totally.

Yeah. And ourselves.

Yeah. So if, if we're being honest, I think most of us as parents would probably admit to some level of discomfort. This topic, it feels awkward. We weren't given a great framework from our own families. So what can we do as parents to increase our comfort level in discussing sex with our kids?

Start discussing it with each other. So this is where there's so many good resources that you can get a book as a couple and you can begin to read out loud to each other. So you as an individual or as a couple, you're comfortable. So the more you get as an individual, comfortable and, and sometimes that's the fruit of those of us who've gone through recovery in this arena is that we've kind of learned how to not feel shame about our human sexuality, but learn to understand it and embrace it as healthy, stewarded in good ways. That creates a greater comfort to discussing it individually and as a couple. So if you can't talk about it with your spouse, it's going to be hard to talk about it with your child. So this is where parenting groups, mentors, there's, there's just great resources. In fact, our book is one that we just say read out loud, mom and dad to each other and discuss it. If you do it in adult groups or things like that, it becomes easier than when it's time to talk to your kids.

Yeah, we recommend kids to or books also that are appropriate for your kids so that you could read it with them. That's a good way to increase comfort level because I may not know what to say, but my child's right here. I have a book, I'm reading through it that might produce some questions and answers and just some interaction that opens up the conversation.

Yeah, we've recommended on the podcast a number of times the book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. That, that's a really well done book that helps a child understand and they've got age appropriate levels of that, that whatever age your kid is at, you can get the right book and start there. And I just so agree with what you said. I think the reminder that we give parents is our kids will take their cues from us. And so if we're acting all embarrassed and nervous and stumb over our words, our kids pick up and then it's like, oh my goodness, there's something really weird and strange and scary here because look at dad is suddenly just this weird person that I've never seen him act this way. What's going on? And so if we aren't comfortable saying parts of the body and describing it and thinking through it, well, how would I say, you know, if my 8 year old asked me, well, what's sex? And I've never thought through how I would answer that to an 8 year old. We should think through that. And I've even encouraged parents, step into your bathroom and look in the mirror and try to have the conversation ahead of time, because if you're super nervous, it's going to come across. And so taking the time to actually. I know it sounds funny, but I've done it myself. Just in my head, I'm practicing what I would say so that when the moment comes, it's like I've kind of thought through what I would say, and I'm not caught off guard now. I know our kids can ask questions. We could never prepare ourselves for every question they would ask. But at least if we've practiced and thought through some of the big ones, then. Then I think we're going to come across with a more normal kind of tone of voice and facial expressions. And even if on the inside we're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm saying these things.

Yeah.

If on the outside we appear to be, hey, this is a normal thing to talk about, then our kids go, oh, this is a normal thing to talk about, and we're setting them up for success.

And I think with that too, like, practice using, like, the biological words for things. Saying the word penis, saying the word vagina. Because what you're doing is because you're destigmatizing whole, like, because you've gotten into your head that somehow these are bad or dirty or wrong or whatever. And if you can just start using that language when you're describing it, I feel like that will help maybe soften up the. Just the anxiety I think a lot of us have.

And if we call it something else, it actually makes it worse. If we're using the jargon for body parts, you're actually making it harder on them.

Right.

Well, and this is where, when kids are younger, if they can literally see the body parts in a kid's book written, like Learning about sex series that we refer to in our book, that's age appropriate. This is how God made our body parts. He made men with testicles and. And with a penis, and he made women with vaginas. And they can see it in a picture book where they actually see the human body, but not in a sexualized way. It's normalized. You turn the page and you're talking about other things. So the more you have it in a simple conversation and less as a scary conversation, it just creates a easier way to have dialogue about it.

Totally. Okay, so what are some of the things that parents need to be aware of when it comes to this exposure that kids tend to have? And a lot of it can be on a Daily basis with friends or at school. Where would you encourage parents to be more vigilant around this topic?

Well, in many ways, again, we're kind of reinforcing what we've said, but the openness about mom and dad being the safest people to ask questions to, that's one of the chapters in our book is welcome questions and be ready anytime. So that sense of that you're safe, that they can ask questions if they see something and they can bring it to mom and dad. We was just with some friends the other day, and my friend said, my older son realized that his younger brother saw something on the computer and said, dad, my younger brother saw a bad picture, and he knew what it was and he knew how to tell dad. And then dad was able to help the younger kid not by shaming him, but by guiding him so that father had created a safety within the home to where, hey, if we see someone's private parts on the computer, which is, what, a good way to define pornography for your kid, a good picture, bad picture, then we realize, oh, we should tell a trusted adult. And that's exactly what that little kid did. And then dad was able to train and guide and navigate that situation. And so that's, to me, a big part of what you're creating is in anything in life, if there's a sense of concern, mom and dad are the safest people to come to.

Because really, exposure is everywhere right now. Even if you're protective, if you're homeschooled your kid, it's not if it's when they're going to be exposed. So that's why, for us, the biggest goal is helping the parent to be safe, to have the conversation, to even bring it up. Even if the kids don't bring it up, there are ways that we can bring up conversation and ask questions of our kids. I think the other piece is that culture is constantly changing, right? So as soon as you learn of one way to protect your kids, then the pornography industry or our pop culture, they find another way because they're advertising. And so they're zeroing in on our kids. And we as parents are the safe people kind of walking alongside of them. So again, it comes to education, educating yourself, and then being the safe person to talk with them.

I think it is really hard to, in this current culture, to stay up on what are the dangers, what's the new thing, what's the next thing? Because the sad reality is there are organizations out there that are targeting kids. Kind of like the idea that cigarette companies had 50 years ago is that if we can hook someone young, we've got a customer for life. And that's big money. And sadly, there are companies that are looking to hook young boys and young girls into sexual content and pornography, knowing that if we hook them young, we've got a customer for life. And so we need to be aware of what those strategies are. But I don't have time as a parent to constantly research that. And so I think it's being aware of what are the groups out there that this is what they do. They're staying aware of what's happening. They're writing articles and blogs about what should you look for. And I think we'll talk about some of those in the episode here, but just making sure you're connected to others, that this is what they do for a living, so to speak, so that you as a parent can glean from them and not feel like you've got to be the expert on every new app or what's the next portal that's going to take my kids astray. The other thing I would just mention quickly, most of our common places that we go to on the web now have safe search functions. And if we haven't taken the time to look for those and turn them on, whether it's YouTube, Google Chrome, they have safe search settings and just making sure on your most common used devices that your kids are on that all those settings have been activated. Because thankfully the larger companies are aware that, hey, there's parents, that they're not going to let their kids use devices unless we've got these functions and they're there for you, but they're not always enabled automatically. And so just make sure whatever you are giving your kids continual access to, you've done what you can to make it age appropriate.

And Nick, I like you talked about, there's different strategies that are coming. So we as parents need to have a strategy. And I think one of those strategies is your body is good. All of your body is good, including your genitals. God made you this way, and this is a good part of how you're made. And now we learn how to, you know, manage that or steward that, or we learn how to. This is a lifelong lesson that we give our kids about what is really good. So they have that framework. Not evil is our. Something distorted is the first exposure. But the first exposure is what's good and healthy about how God made you.

Yeah, I think one last thing I would just say is I know as a parent, giving my kid a device and letting him go, like be on the device for 30 minutes or our devices at home. Brady can only do something for an hour on the weekends. And what I've realized though is that even the games that are safe will also have ads if you're connected to the Internet. And so it's one of those things where sometimes we just want to not have to engage mentally and let our kid just go do something so we can have a break, breather. But in reality there's stuff there too that's coming. And so I think that there has to be an awareness piece, supervision, monitoring, that sort of stuff. And like, I mean, I don't know that's it's going to take extra energy, but it is done for a good reason. We're trying to protect our kids.

Well, and we limit technology not just for reasons of porn, but for reasons of letting them grow and learning all about all other things in life. Right. Just limiting it because we learn and develop as humans by having all kinds of experiences in life.

You know, know it's really about being an intentional parent. And I think we just include sexuality in there. Maybe before as intentional parents we were like, oh, at puberty or you know, when they're in high school, I'm gonna have this conversation with them. And we just include that from the early stage when we're being an intentional parent about all different areas like how, how much TV use or what they're eating or whatever.

We're spending a week with my daughter and son in law Dan and Whitney and our little grandson Louie. And yes, I'll show you pictures later in the podc. What I love about our kids is they're being much more intentional about technology management, not just overall with Lou and everything. And so it's kind of fun to watch just how they're wanting him to develop and grow in a lot of ways.

Yeah, yeah. Well, lots of wisdom needed there when we have young kids. And I think when parents have young kids there can be a temptation to believe that, oh, we have lots of time. I don't need to start yet. And yet I know from talking to you guys and reading your book that that you recommend that even in the toddler years we begin having age appropriate conversations. And so what would you say to the parent that maybe grew up like I did in more of the purity culture where the model was at 12, 13 years old, the parent takes you out for the big sex talk and that's maybe the first time. And if that's what we were raised in, we're still thinking, like, I was going to wait till they were 13. What do you mean? At 2 or 3, I start having conversations. So why is it not wise to wait until our kids hit puberty to start having these conversations? And why would we start conversations even in toddler years?

Well, like anything, there's a building block to learning. And so starting with a great foundation just creates that sense of security and that sense of building blocks. Mom and dad are safe, Your body is good, made in God's image. And here's how it works, you know, just. Even in, like, potty training and some of those things just, it's a building block of how we care and how we steward and manage ourselves as human beings. And. And then to me, I love the brain study. This is why I'm just so grateful for, you know, pure desire. I love listening to Heather Cole when she's on the podcast because it's so fun to see your brain light up about wonderful things in life. And so giving your kids other experiences for the brain is, I think, a great way to even just kind of combat this whole thing with. So porn isn't the only dopamine kids feel.

And we don't disregard having a conversation or an intentional conversation at puberty and in high school and. And, you know, all of those are good. You don't start there. Don't wait until that time to do it. And one of the things I always think is just, our kids are like little sponges when they're small. And everything mom and dad says is just amazing. You know, I remember one of my sons said to. Said to my mom, my mom, to his grandma, let's ask my mom. She's a genius. When he's like three, you know, I was like, okay, I'm gonna write that down for when I'm not a genius anymore.

When he's 23, going, you know, yeah, right.

Definitely went through the stage where I wasn't a genius anymore, but back then was a genius. So I think about that when we're training parents that up into that young, older, grade school age, your parent, they're just a sponge for everything that their parents say. And as they get to be middle school and high school, they're much more influenced by their peers. And it's not that you can't stay in the game there with them, but they become much more interested in what peers are saying. So I think that's one great benefit of starting young, is we're establishing that conversation and that relationship when they are just really full on listening to us. And hopefully we can remain safe and kind of walk into that next season with them along with their peers, and be able to discuss what they're learning or talking about with their peers as well.

And they're hearing sexual language, not in a derogatory way or a dishonoring way, but they're hearing sexual language in a normalized, healthy way of communicating it.

Yeah, I know for us, our boys watch stuff on Disney. They got great shows on there that they watch. And, man, at the time of this recording, we're recording this in June, and that's Pride Month. And so everywhere, including on Disney, including on the kids profiles on that app that they're pushing LGBTQ stuff. And I'm not even taking a stance on that. I mean, I think we take a biblical stance on that anyway. But just that is a sexualized narrative that is being presented to my kid. And so that is something that I need to be aware of. And that's something that monitoring is really important. And so I think that that's why Even Brooks, my 3 year old, he's seeing that and getting exposed to that. And now he can string sentences together, but he still needs a translator. So it's not like he can totally articulate everything. But in reality, I still need to be addressing that to some level with him. Him, if he asks questions, if he hears his brother ask questions about it or sees it. And so I think that that's, you know, for us practically why we have to start addressing it so early.

One of the fears that you expressed earlier, Traci, as a parent, was overexposing your kids, you know, giving them too much information too soon. And I'm really of the conviction that if our heart is to help our kids and to train them, it's not possible to overexpose them. Because if we're doing it for the right motives, what I think about is our kids are going to hear these words and concepts somewhere for the first time. And I feel like, well, wouldn't it be the best possible situation if the first time and place they heard it is from mom and dad, even if their little brain didn't comprehend what it was? And what I've seen in my kids, if there's a concept or word that they're not really ready to understand, we can have the conversation. It just kind of goes over their head, huh? But even, you know, words like sex and penis and pornography and having just a quick explanation of what that is at an age appropriate level now, it's like their brains, they've got a framework for it. I know the word, I've heard about it. And so if then on the bus or at some function another four year old is using that word, they're like, oh, I've talked about that with mom and dad. Or I feel safe asking mom and dad what that means. And I just, I don't think overexposure is possible if we're doing it for the reasons to love and to train and to guide our children, because we're helping them create a healthy framework. And even in the toddler years, that's needed for parts of the body, you know, starting to understand the differences between boys and girls. I mean, those are places that a three year old is starting to be aware of. My body if, you know, if they've got a little sister, just those conversations come up. Our bodies are different. What a great opportunity with even a toddler to age appropriately. Explain that.

Yeah, and you're talking about education, and I don't. Sometimes we even use the word exposure, which kind of has a negative term. But education is very positive, you know, and it's true. You use phrases that your kids won't understand. Someday my grandson Louis may look at me and say, oh, that's what strategic nerve endings were.

Okay.

Gosh.

He may just laugh and say, I always use that word, strategic nerve endings. Now I know what he's talking about.

And everyone who's heard Rodney speak said amen, because we've heard that. Okay, so we're getting into the age appropriate stuff. And that's a phrase that we use a lot here at Pure Desire. I know it's a phrase you guys use a lot in your book and then in your teachings as well. So let's just say we want to have conversations around the topic of sex with our kids that are maybe in the 7 to 9 range or maybe even younger. What does that phrase age appropriate look like? What does it sound like?

Well, many times it's not exactly for every family, depending on if it's the oldest or the youngest, sometimes a younger child will maybe learn quicker because of their older siblings. Again, it's more of the building blocks, but I think definitely in age 7 to 9, you've talked to them about the importance of bonding and connection. They're learning how to feel safe with family and share feelings. They're learning how to identify their genitals and explain about them. They've learned potty training. They've learned what's appropriate as far as privacy. What are my private parts that only I touch or When I'm in the bathroom or taking a shower, I don't expose them to other people. But then I think it's explaining pornography, what it is when people show their body parts in a picture and that that would be a bad picture. And so they have a definition of what pornography is and what to do if you see it, you know, and in. In the book Good Picture, Bad Picture, they talk about turning and running and telling, you know, a safe person and about not keeping secrets if you see a bad picture. And again, this is where parent safety is so important that. That parents knowing how to train and guide instead of shame and punish. Because when your child of the little girl at seven or the little boy at seven sees pornography, sometimes that can be shocking to us as a parent. Like I did something wrong or. Or they did something wrong and inadvertently we can create. We can express shame. When we need to express safety, we can express anger. Trace says this a lot. Tracy. We should be mad at the pornographer, not at the child, you know, because the child is just exposed and then us being loving and nurturing and thank you for showing that. And that would be considered a bad picture, huh? We would want to put clothes on that person and helping them know that you're safe and that. That we should not keep any secrets of bad pictures. That's a great way of helping them navigate through what can be traumatic now in the porn industry, unfortunately, that's a big piece.

It's just that, you know, there are certain things that we want to go hide. We're not sure how our parents going to respond. So we're creating that environment where it feels safe and where. Where we don't have secrets. You know, I always would say like a difference between a surprise, a birthday is a surprise and a secret. Right. And so your kids learning at that little age. And then I think sometimes just talking about, in a more broad sense, when something makes you feel yucky in your stomach, like icky feeling or something you see coming and talking to mom and dad, because it might. The first time, it might not be something sexual or it might just. It might be, but they don't understand it. But as they get older, the understanding of, like, oh, when I kind of have that sense of discomfort or shame or somebody said something to me, I go and talk to my parent about it or my safe person in my world.

I know one of the go to questions for us when our boys were that age in particular, and I think to a degree with our girls, but it seemed more important and prevalent with Our boys, it's just asking questions about their day and saying things like are any of the kids at recess joking about things you don't understand? Have you heard any words that you never heard before with, was there any conversations where friends laughed about something and you didn't know what they meant? And trying to create opportunity that when those experiences happen. Because I don't think we can prepare our kids for every circumstance they're ever going to walk into, but that we've created at home, healthy dialogue about, hey, let's talk about it, let me help be that source that is safe to come to isn't going to shame you and say what were you thinking? How dare you say that word now? It's like, oh, let's talk about what that means. And so being involved in your kid's life to ask those questions so that you're a partner with them in exploring our world, not that person they need to avoid because they felt like they get in trouble anytime they bring it up. And the other thing I've seen us do a lot is just trying to look for the opportunities that our world presents. And so when our kids have asked, well hey can we watch this show? And if we look at it, we don't just say, oh that's a bad show, we're not going to watch it it. But as opposed to, you know, it looks like in this movie there's scenes where they choose not to wear enough clothing and they're doing things that we don't think are appropriate for an unmarried couple to be doing. And that's not healthy for us to see. We've even talked about that that can become something that our brain wants to see more of because even if it's wrong that our, there's things that our brain can get hooked on and we've even talked about just like if we take a drug that our brain can want more of it because it makes us feel something. And I think even at 7, 8, 9 years old, our boys were able understand like oh, okay, yeah, that I mean I've just seen they don't naturally want to do something that's going to be harmful for them. And if mom and dad in kind of a normal non shaming way have just said we don't think that's going to be a healthy choice for us, they've been able to understand and make that a part of their decision making process. Now as I see them in their teenage years go, oh, I don't think this is appropriate for us. In fact, I've Heard my older son say that a lot to my younger son. I don't think this is appropriate for us to watch. And so just I think they've inherited some of that language. Not just this is bad and it's don't do it. Because I feel like that's the environment I grew up in. This is bad, don't do it. So my little brain was going, well, why? What's so bad? I need that Curiosity was actually fueled by the not knowing. So taking opportunities and talking about them.

It's funny you say that my older son when. Because they're not allowed to watch YouTube without one of the parents in the room because of ads. And if anything I should probably just pay for YouTube Premium so I don't have to do this anymore. But anyways, totally different topic. But I've seen this where Brady will be like, brooks, don't look. It's a commercial. And they'll like turn around and they won't look. And so he's helping his little brother. So I love seeing that because it's like, oh, he is paying attention when we tell him, you know, to do that. But I think a couple of practical things we've been doing for sure are using the biological terms. Also been talking to specifically our 6 year old Brady about boundaries. Like sometimes he like puts his body on his brother's body and he's not doing anything sexual, he's just being a rowdy six year old. And if you know Brady, you know, he's very rowdy. But you know, saying like, we don't put our bodies or our body parts on other people, like that's just not what we do. And eventually we'll have a conversation where it's like, well we do, we can do that if we're given permission. And it's in, you know, the context that God designed it for. But another thing too, Brady's been. And it's just cause he's comfortable in his house. Like he'll go to the bathroom and then he'll walk out, you know, from the bathroom naked, without putting his clothes on. And it's like, buddy, this is becoming not appropriate if people are over at our house. Like we don't show other people our private parts. Like you know, trying to not have him feel like naked equals being shamed. But at the same time understanding like this is not something that everybody gets to see. Like you don't get to like, if mom and dad are home, that's fine, great, whatever. But if we have people over, buddy.

Put your pants on, yeah, redirecting and not overshaming, I think is really great. That you use that language, I think is really good.

So one of the statements you guys make that I think you're known for and has helped a lot of people is that idea that we're not looking to have one 100 minute conversation, but 101 minute conversations all along the way in helping just talk to their kids about sex. So tell us a little more about what that looks like and can you give some practical ideas on what do these one minute conversations look like along the way?

They could be things like. That's a great question. I wish when I was your age I could have asked my mom and dad that question, but I didn't feel safe to ask that question, so. Or this is how pornography hurts the brain. Because when I was young I saw it and it really hurt my brain and it didn't help me to manage my sexuality better. Or again, they could just be a number of things that could be age appropriate. And I always think a sense of humor is good. Don't be afraid to laugh at yourself or to think of things in a way that kind of just brings joy in the conversation.

And I think utilizing just those everyday things like you were talking about Nick watching a television show, maybe you're watching it with them, then you get to have conversation about it. If you got making a snack, walking the dog, whatever. Those are more like relaxed times when you're already relating where you can have the conversation. I think definitely when we're driving in a car because like, especially they get older, we're facing forward, we don't have to face each other and have this intense conversation. We can have more of a casual conversation about things. So it's time to bring up. Yeah, you might feel a little more uncomfortable.

I remember when I was a youth pastor, I had a close friend of mine who's also a youth pastor, and he said instead of sitting down, like knee to knee, reading your Bible with these students, like go take them to Target and like go walk around and go shopping and then let the organic conversation happen there where you're talking about your relationship with the Lord. And I've noticed this, even with Brady specifically, that if we're playing soccer or we're doing something outside or doing something like building a Lego, those are the times where he can be locked into something sort of distracting but is engaged with the conversation more so than like, hey, will you sit down and talk with me? He's like, no, I want to go outside. You know, I want to go play soccer. I want to go to something else. And so I've realized that those are opportunities that I can lean into for conversations like this. And I think it's important to say this too. It's not like every, every time we have an opportunity to talk to our kids, it has to be about sex or it has to be about a body part or whatever. But just know that sometimes it's okay to bring that up and make that kind of like the normal. It's in the normal Rolodex of topics that you're discussing with your kids.

Right.

And every family is going to be a little different.

Totally.

So you're gonna have some kids that ask a million questions and some kids that never ask questions, you know, and so you got to get creative. You have some parents that are really comfortable talking about a lot of things and some parents that are uncomfortable. So it's kind of just like working within your family dynamic to say just being intentional. Again that word, like we got to educate ourselves. Be intentional.

Look, be silent. I think that's the takeaway I want you to give. Don't. Your silence will communicate something. So don't be silent. And there are resources that can help you. Kind of hand holding, as Tracy says, just to navigate these conversations, you know.

Yeah, you use the word building blocks, Rodney. And I think about the one minute conversations, the way they can become building blocks and things certain. So one of the things I'm doing right now with my boys who are 14 and 11 is to have conversations that go like this. Hey, you know, we've talked about that. YouTube can sometimes have inappropriate videos and we need to be careful of that. And you said that hasn't happened. But I'm just wondering, it's been a while since we've talked about it. Has anything come up or anything we need to talk about? And typically their answer is no, but I really am. The main reason I'm bringing it up is an opportunity to say, oh, that's awesome. But I just want to remind you like I'm here and if anything comes up, I hope you feel safe to talk to me. Cause I'd rather help and talk about it than have you feel like you have to hide something or pretend it didn't happen. And I think looking for opportunities to reaffirm, I'm safe. It's OK to bring up. And if we just say it one time and then never say it again, I think there can be questions like, well, I know my dad said I could bring it up, but that was the only time we talked about it. It's been a year. Just looking for moments. Say, I just want to remind you, you can come to me with that and I'm not going to punish you. I'm going to help you and we're going to strategize how to. Because I want you to be able to play your games or watch your dude per videos. We'll strategize how to use those in a healthy way together.

Nick, my dad would have never. Who, who died five months ago. My dad would have never understood the word scrolling.

Yeah, right.

I was watching YouTube shorts, you know, and I was scrolling. There's Trevor Windsor doing a Pure Desire podcast. But the next one was inappropriate.

Yeah.

So you know what dad did? Dad realized, hey, that's inappropriate. And I manage my technology. Sometimes I see things inappropriate. Not that I'm looking for them them, but I see them too and I have to make a decision. So sometimes even just modeling what we model for our kids and how we're. How we're seeing that rather than my dad must never see things. My dad must never feel that way.

Good connection. Yes.

Yeah. Making that connection with our vulnerability as they get older. I think that's even the conversation, Nick, at your boys's age about how to navigate masturbation. Just even talking about that subject and again not being silent. But how did I navigate it? Was it helpful or not helpful? What information did I get and not get about that? Where can it really cause a lot of problems and how do we navigate that? And again, these are sometimes so difficult conversations to have for parents because why we never have a context to hear these in any way that would be healthy or provide a framework to navigate gate.

Totally.

I think what you said, Nick, to reminder that it's uncomfortable for our kids too. So even if we've had the conversation, you know, and they kind they know or they're making an attempt at it, they're going to be exposed to something and it's an uncomfortable conversation for them. So us bringing it up again, I think that's a great point. We did a parent training one time and a 13 year old girl came out and she said what I learned tonight is this is uncomfortable for my parents and it's uncomfortable for me.

Yeah, we're all in the same boat.

Yeah, seriously, that's all take away.

We both want to. And she kind of said we both want to talk about it, but we're both uncomfortable. So kind of knowing that.

And Nick, I know that you're a Hunter Nick with you grew up hunting. So like hunter safety, learning about how to manage or handle a firearm or drivers Ed, you know, you're teaching your kids how to drive now. So there's great respect and there's great fear. Learning how to shift and you get nervous. So there's a lot of things in life that are building blocks that create that learning, you know, rhythm.

Absolutely. Okay. So this year for Amy and I was new, Brady was in school full time. And so I know a lot of parents have kids in school and not everyone goes to Christian schools. Sometimes our kids are spending time with people who are not Christians or don't share the same values with our kids going to school and having those relationships and that exposure to other values and other perspectives.

Perspectives.

Can we actually protect them from the world's perspective when it comes to sexuality?

I was thinking just the word protect. Maybe a better words would be train and guide. You know, we're trying to protect but we really, what we really know is they are going to be exposed. Our, our world is all around us and when we are, you know, so to speak, protecting. And so how are we training and guiding them, them.

And this is where values, which I really love that term values, is where we start teaching our kids. One of the values is we love people who have different values than us. People don't have to have our same value in order for us to show them love and respect. And I think that's really good when they come home and say my friend Billy has two dads or two moms. So again, this is where we can embrace value. But one of our values is, is we treat people in a Christ honoring way. Everybody has dignity, worth and value. Even though their values may be different than ours in all kinds of subject matters. One of those could be sexuality or honesty or work ethic or what? Fill in the blank. Right.

And respect is an important word because that also respecting other people's values, respecting our own bodies, respecting other other people's bodies and choices right there talks a about then what they're going to be exposed to when they learn about respect. How do I respect me? How do I respect and love other people? That'll take you right up, right up through middle school and high school. Right when I'm making choices, if I have learned to be a respectful person that cares about other people's feelings and about their choices, then respects a really powerful value that we have in our family, in our home.

And it's okay for you to disagree with someone's values, just do it in a way that shows respect, reinforcing. It's not disrespectful to have a different view. It's not disrespectful to say, I don't see it that way. But again, just remaining respectful to the individual.

Yeah. What we're trying to do is change the perspective that our primary role as parents is to keep the big bad world away from my kids. I think that's maybe been the model of 20 years ago and, and I think we're at a day and age where you can't. That our kids are going to be in the world. And you might say, well, no, I can, you know, we're not going to have the Internet. We're not going to use cable tv. I mean, we've worked with a number of Amish communities and I can tell you the Amish are as addicted and beyond than what you might expect. You could have your kids in Christian school, a homeschool co op, like with the way the Internet and devices are so integrated into our world and we're in such a sex saturated culture, like we're going to face it. And so I think if as parents we change the mindset from my primary role is to keep the big bad world away to my primary role is, as Traci said, is to train and guide them into navigating this world and being actively with them in that we're going to be a lot more successful. And I would go back to what I said again about who's creating the framework for our kids. If we're waiting for it to come up at school and just hoping it doesn't, we're going to be behind the eight ball the whole time. But if we assume like, man, my kids are going to hear about the summer, I'd rather they hear about it from me. Let's just start talking then. You're equipping them that when that idea comes into their brain, it's not a new idea. They're like, I've got this framework. Mom and dad talked about this. I kind of know where to put this.

You've established the narrative, Nick. That's exactly right. You as a parent have established a narrative.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make healthy choices. I'm not saying just willy nilly put your kids into any environment and just, oh, they'll be fine. Like, yes, be discerning about where your kids go. But I just want to encourage a parent to consider. Consider. I don't think you can choose your environments for your kids so well that it's not going to come up. And if that's your goal, then you're probably going to be oblivious to what they are facing and you're not going to be the person they come to.

Yeah, Nick, I got to say this because I'm bursting on the inside with a big old grin here, because I went to Christian schools my whole life, and I had siblings that didn't. Then as an older. In my 20s, my mom found out that I struggled with pornography. And she had this classic line where she said, oh, my God, all these years I prayed for the wrong kid. So she assumed that just because you go to a Christian school, you're in church, you have this Christian environment, that that kid's not going to struggle. And I kind of go back to the story of the prodigal son. One was in the home, one was outside, but both kids struggled. So don't assume that somehow your little environment is going to keep your kid from having any struggle in life. That's just a part of our.

The phrase I heard a lot growing up was in the world, but not of the world. And I think inadvertently, the emphasis was on the not of the world, forgetting that that even though we're not of this world, we're still living in it, we're still exposed to it. Every single day. I listen to things on the way to work. I see things on the Internet. I have experiences with people who don't have the same values as I do. And so I think that that's the idea, because this wasn't training Guy, but my thought was, can I protect. No. Can I equip them with the tools? Yes. I can give them the tools to manage being not of the world while still living in it. And so I think just emphasizing that this world's not going anywhere, you know, we're always going to have to live in it.

So, Rodney and Traci, one of the challenges that I think some of our listeners have is they feel like their childhood was a mess, their sexuality is a mess, they've made lots of bad choices, and maybe they're moving towards recovery, but they still feel like, man, I've struggled with addiction or I've had affairs. These have been my issues. And that can create a voice for them that feels like, who am I, you know, to try to help my kids? Who am I to say anything to them? What would you say to that parent? Can they help their kids be sexually healthy? Even if they look at their track record and say, my track record was Mostly unhealthy. What. What opportunities do they have to still create sexual health in their children?

Well, first of all, invest in your own healing wherever you are in your journey, and realize that that is one of the best gifts you can give your kid is you learning how to value love and redeem your good. You're God given good sexuality. And whether that is abuse or addiction or abortion or affairs or all those things that can kind of, kind of damage our view of ourselves. Redeeming, that's the, the part of the gospel that I really love, is the redemption of these things. That the enemy is meant to destroy our life. God can redeem and. And now we can become healthy people. The other aspect of that I would simply say is like, like it's just busting this misnomer that there's a perfect parenting model out there. And if you do A, B and C, then your kid's going to turn out like D. I like to say, you know, Adam and Eve had three parents. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You know, and if anybody was going to grow kids God's way, it was going to be God, right? And Adam and Eve had struggle. So just saying that struggle is a part of our journey. And this is, you know, the last chapter of our book is Never Turning Away Way, and that it's being there with our kids in their struggle. And isn't that the heart of the gospel? God enters our condition to say you're not alone, assumes, you know, our nature, and then ultimately redeems. And so that's. I think that's the example we're given in Scripture, is that we walk with our kids in this process.

And I think parents can be really hard on themselves. So I hear that a lot just in, in our clinical program too, of just like, because I struggled with pornography and then my kid was exposed and this is my fault, and we brought it in the home. There's just a lot of being really hard on ourselves sometimes. And I think just living long enough now and working with enough couples, it's like our kids are going to be exposed. There are some that it's going to be more of a problem for than others. There are some that even when we are guiding them and we are doing all the steps we know to take, make. It's just going to be a bigger struggle. And so how do we help them then be able to talk about it when there is a mistake or when they, you know, they do make choices that don't go with their values or with their family's values? How do we help them own it? How do we help them move through it? I think that's just such an important piece because we can't assume that they're not going to make any mistakes. And we also, like, we're trying to help them. And there's going to be some of them that when we walk with them, they do walk well through this, and they walk through it in a healthy way.

Way.

But every kid is going to be a little bit different. And so just understanding that as parents and kind of like taking that shame out of our parenting, right, of beating ourselves up, we're going to do the very best that we know how to do.

We didn't write our book because we. We didn't make any mistakes sexually. We didn't write our book because our kids navigated this perfectly. Our book just came out of wishing we would have had somebody to hold our hands, as Tracy would say, and help navigate. So this is really what it's about. It's about let's all learn and be a part of a communal learning where we can grow and move our kids healthier, a healthy direction.

I think it's funny, as you guys were sharing, this idea came up of this experience I had with Brady. This was not that long ago. It was actually. We were on. We were headed to your daughter's graduation party. And Brady's writing out, like, a note. Cause he loves to do.

Do that.

And he makes a mistake, you know, as he's writing with a crayon on a green piece of paper. And it's like, well, I would make mistakes if I wrote with crayon, too. But he, like, freaks out and is just, like, so upset at himself. And I'm like, buddy, it's okay. Like, we can flip the page over. We could cross it out. And he's like, I always make mistakes. Parents don't make mistakes. Adults don't make mistakes. And I'm like, oh, buddy, I make mistakes all the time. And what's interesting as the reason why this comes up is like, that wasn't a sexual conversation, but that conversation was establishing a principle that will get drawn out in his sexuality in that conversation, that if he knows that daddy is just as much in process as he is, I still have stuff I gotta grow in. I still have things I struggle with. I still make mistakes. When coloring with crayons, then that sets up that safety that we've been talking about so much that, you know. And again, I have to. And I love what you said earlier, Nick. Continue to reinforce that Continue to reinforce that it's not a one time conversation, but just know that the conversations you have outside of this topic too can reinforce the safety that we're looking for inside this conversation.

What I would say to that parent is that honesty and humility always speak louder than perfection and performance.

Totally.

So when we go to our kids and say, I didn't navigate this well, but I want to help be a person that I didn't have in my life for you now, I think we have to be careful that we don't do it out of fear. Then like, man, I was really messed up. So I'm so afraid that you're going to be messed up and I don't want you to turn out like me. And if we're parenting out of that fear of like, don't become like me, I don't know that that's healthy, but just kind of having that humility of like, hey, I'm doing some work now that I wish I would have been aware of at your age. And so I'm working on this and that's why I'm being open with you and I'm just trying to help guide in ways that no one ever did for me.

A little five year old boy asked his dad, dad, do you think Jesus ever made any mistakes? And the dad thought for a second and said, that's a great question. What do you think? Think? And the little boy paused and said, well dad, if he never made mistakes, how did he learn anything? That's a pretty great question of a response from a five year old boy. And sometimes just seeing that mistakes aren't sin, they're just a part of our learning, like learning how to walk, learning how to spell your name, you know, they're just a part of our learning and growing.

Yeah, what you said, Trevor, just about. It's kind of like how it just works out into all these areas. And that's kind of how how our book is, is it's really about family systems and family structures. And like what I was thinking with this question is something Rod says about don't let a problem become a pattern. Well, that's like, that's like all of areas of life, right? But it's looking through the lens of sexuality. So today we're looking through the lens of sexuality. But these are principles that go out into all areas of our life. And so I love that you made that connection, Trevor, that like when you're talking to him, you're not bringing up sex or sexuality, you're just saying this principle Right here is going to go into that area of his life as we look at that.

Yeah. Okay. So there are probably people listening who have kids that are no longer considered younger. So maybe not in the 7 to 9 range, maybe in the teenage years, maybe even adult kids that are listening. Is it too late for those parents and what can they do, if at all to address this issue with kids who aren't younger anymore, who are not in that age, each group, Nothing.

It's too late. What's the next question?

That's all the time we have for you today. Let's see. Oh, wow.

Thanks for tuning in.

Yeah, seriously.

I think vulnerability comes to mind as our kids get older, we can be more vulnerable about our own stories. So if you haven't been had open communication with them, your own just taking on some humility and sharing some of your story and your struggles, that really goes a long way with kids and it really opens, that's what I've seen in our home. It really opens them up. And I mean I, Rodney talked about it earlier. We were young parents with not a lot of, you know, a lot, not a lot of help going into that. So we sort of learned as our kids grew, our conversations have gotten more open as they've gotten older and we kind of continue to grow with them and to have that more open conversation.

Yeah, I think just like humility looks good on all of us and humility is just here's my weaknesses and here's my strengths. Not false humility, but true humility. So does learning and growing. And so I think it's beautiful when they can watch a 55 year old dad still learn and grow or, or a 40 year old dad or a 30 year old mom. So that growing and learning, it, it's a mindset that we take. It's not about perfection, it's about growing. That's why I love when 70 year olds join our groups because they want to be healthier. I'm like, yeah, we're not waiting until you're in your 80s. 80s is hard and 90s is almost impossible, you know, to do this work. So way to get a jump start. Today is the day that we have today. So today why don't you start learning and growing. Be, be humble, find good resources that can help you, you and you'll be amazed at the, at the gift you're going to leave your kids.

What I would say is that there's never a bad time to do a good thing. Now there might have been a better time you might have wished you'd have started when they were young. But we can't look at that and go, well, I didn't start when they're young, so, you know, I guess my time has passed. It's having that humility, like you said, Traci, to walk into their lives and in a gentle, gracious way, to say, hey, I feel like I really should have been involved more in this area, and I'm sorry that I wasn't. But I'm in a place now. I'm learning some things and growing, and I just, I want to start that conversation. And maybe they're 17 or 27 or whatever age, and their reaction to it, depending on the person, could be varied. They may not be super interested, but I think it communicates to them more than we realize when we say, I'm sorry, I wasn't engaged. I'd like to be a part of the conversation now. And if and when you're ready, I want you to know I would love to be a part of having some of these conversations. It's a good thing to do, and maybe you didn't do it earlier, but there's never a bad time to do a good thing.

That's a beautiful quote.

And you're also talking about modeling. So then if they see you, whatever area it is in your life, it could be financial, it could be as a couple, we're getting some support and help. Could be a lot of things where they just seem, oh, my parents are still growing, still learning. I think that opens up to more conversations as well.

Tracy would often remind me of that. When our kids were young, younger, what we model is more important than what we say. Keep modeling.

Yeah. So good.

It became a mantra for us.

So good. Well, anything?

Nope.

Let's keep going.

Okay. This has just been a fantastic conversation. I know it'll be super helpful to parents of all ages out there. Obviously, we'd love to have them pick up your guys's book if they haven't yet. How to talk with your kids about sex. You can get it@puredesire.org it's available in different versions and soon in Spanish. We're getting really close to that now.

That they're in Mexico.

In addition to that, Rodney, Tracy, what other books resources are out there that you two would suggest parents check out?

Well, there's a couple authors that I think have really done well on this. One of them is the Pinners, Cliff and Joyce Pinner. They have some books out, families facts about sex that I think are good. Richard Dobbins has Some good books on feeling things and on sexuality and then the Christian Guide for Learning about Sex. I think those are. That's a series, the books that you can get and we've noted some of these in the back of our book and so you could look at those resources and get them. But anything I recommend that if mom and dad can read it out loud together, whatever book they get, that is going to start more conversation when you hear those words, words and you just become familiar with familiarizing yourself with those conversations.

We talked about good pictures, bad pictures. I think that's. That one's a really relevant one, you know, for the time that we live in. And then some definitely some at different ages and stages for the parent and for the kids.

There's a. Another good book is Space at the Table by Brad Harper. He's written a wonderful book. Has a son that has different values on sexuality than him. And I think that he does a great job learning how to love someone with different values.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. The author of Good Pictures, Bad Pictures has a website called Defend Young Minds. Would really recommend that website. Defend Young Minds. A lot of resources and tools for parents on there. Someone from a cultural perspective is called Culture Reframed. That's Gail Dines website and she has a ton on there about what's happening in our culture and resources for parents. Not a Christian source, but I think some of this navigating a hyper sexualized culture and giving really good guidance to parents. So again, that's Culture Reframed. And the third one I'd recommend is another website called Protect Young Eyes. So you got Defend Young Minds and Protect Young eyes. That's Chris McKenna who's been on staff with Covenant Eyes and has done a lot of work just on how parents can navigate technology and from a Christian perspective. So that one is Protect Young Eyes. Those are the three, three that. That I've utilized and think have some really good resources for parents.

Absolutely. Okay. We are writing all that in the show notes vigorously over here.

I can tell Rodney's about to blow.

Up if he doesn't say, oh, go ahead, Rodney.

Sorry. Keep laughing with your kids. Keep releasing dopamine in their brain. Keep them having meaningful experiences in life. Be present. That's the best gift you can give your kid is being present with, with them and let them feel healthy. Dopamine in the brain.

I say absolutely. Okay, well, Rodney, Tracy, we love you guys. You guys are clearly very educated and have tons of wisdom on this and we're so appreciative of the conversation and your time. So thanks for being with us.

Thank you. Nice.

Honored to be a piece of this puzzle.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today day. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.