322 - Recovery & Healing From The Heart

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello, how are you? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 322 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Don't go breaking my heart. I won't go breaking your heart.

I am surprised. You and I were just talking before we started that. That's one that you're a little surprised you haven't used before. And that's true. That does make. I mean, I'm with you. I was like, wow, you haven't used that one before.

Yes, well, we talk about heart from time to time. And so you think it might have popped into my mind. Although truth be told, it is because ABBA soundtracks are playing at my house a lot more these days. My 15 by the time this podcast is out, 16 year old daughter has been listening to those a lot and so I'm hearing a lot of that tune. And so we talked about Heart today and that song is what popped into my. We're actually doing even an ABBA themed birthday party around Mamma Mia as well. I was gonna say.

Have you been watching that? Have you been watching that movie at all?

Has it been on the TV watching Mamma Mia again? Isn't it like five years old or. Why would I be watching it now?

If your daughter's into abba, why wouldn't she be watching Mamma Mia?

Yeah. Related to my daughter. Yes, absolutely. I thought there was a new one or something I'd missed about.

There are two of them.

Why people were watching. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Both equally cheesy.

Okay, there you go. Shots fired from Stumb. Okay, so yes, we talked about the heart today because today we are talking about the Pure Desire Summit and the theme, which is from the heart. We had Ashley Jamison on to talk about it and I mean, is this episode a push to try to help people see the value of coming to the summit? Absolutely. But it also is an episode that is about the importance of our heart in healing and recovery.

Yeah. Because if you're human, you have a heart. And we don't just mean physically. Obviously that's true. But there is a part of us that we have called heart. And even our society gets it because of the songs and poems and stories that have been written about the heart. We kind of intuitively understand there's this part of us that can't be explained by just our thinking or our brains. It's the part of Us that feels emotions and dreams. Dreams and has passions and energies and kind of that essence of who we are. And we've called it heart. And so we're looking in this episode because we all have a heart that when it comes to recovery, there's a need to pay attention to the heart. And what does that look like? And so that's something we discuss a lot in the episode, but just a part. Whether someone can come to the summit or not, that's a part of recovery. And so I think today, starting to think through that concept of heart will be helpful and really give us maybe some thoughts about what next steps can I take to make sure I'm not just focused on stopping or altering a behavior or changing a dynamic in my relationship, but really addressing issues that are happening in my heart because that's where long term change really happens.

Yeah. And this event is in a little over a week. When this episode comes out, we are really close. And so if you'd like to register, you can go to PureDesire.org summit. We'll also have that down in the show notes. But yeah, just know that this event is a yearly event that we have and we've got a lot of details in this episode about what the event will cover, who will be speaking and all of that. So definitely go and register in person, online, at a host site, whatever. Either way is totally fine with us. Also, subscribe to the podcast, you can follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And this episode is up on YouTube as well. And with that, here's our time with Ashley Jamison talking about our theme for the Pure Desire Summit from the Heart. Ashley Jameson, thanks for joining us again and being back on the podcast. We're glad to have you.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here on a Friday afternoon.

Yeah. Okay, spoiler alert. We're recording this on a Friday, so if you're listening to this on a Tuesday, I don't know if you know this. We don't record it the same day.

Who can't use some Friday attitude on a Tuesday afternoon?

Honestly, right before we started the show, I can tell you there was a lot of Friday attitude, dude. And I'm sure we caught it on film. So, okay, we are gonna have a quick conversation and I say quick. Who knows? We can all be chatty. But in a week, a little over a week, the summit is coming. The Pure Desire Summit. And in the intro you heard a little bit about the event and we're gonna unpack a little bit more. Really focused on the theme from the heart. And yes, in some ways this episode can be a promo episode for the event. But understand the reason we picked this theme is because it does connect to rec and healing. And we want you to know more about that, like why from the Heart is such an important piece to healing and recovery. And also we know that if you are on the recovery and healing journey, the summit is beneficial. It is something that is going to serve you and help you on your journey. So if just trust us, okay? Trust that this is not just going to be a promo for the summit the whole time. Okay. With that, why don't we get into with the first question, which is why did we pick the theme from the heart for the summit? That seems, I mean, last year we did all in and what did we do the year before?

Anybody remember Below the Surface?

Below the Surface, yes. And then we had the Pure Desire Virtual Summit. Which did we have?

I think that was the title was Virtual Summit.

Virtual Summit. That was our theme. That was during COVID That's right. So our fourth year from the Heart. Why did we pick the theme?

So the reason why we picked the theme is. Well, I once had this really amazing friend who was talking to me about how God does internal work first so that we can show our external fruit afterward. It's kind of like inside out, cleaning the inside of the cup first before we look at the fruit. So I was thinking about this after my very, very wise friend was talking.

About this morning at 9:00am Yep. Okay, go ahead.

OK. Just waiting for you to jump in there and you know, give yourself some props. But I think as Christians, and I know for me, who I call myself, like street Christian, you know, grew up just modeling what other families did. We tend to look at what's the list of wrongs and rights. And so I feel like this summit is really going to focus on we have to get past that, we have to go below that and not just have the Christian checklist of yes and nos, but really figure out what is going in, going on inside of our heart and what's driving our behaviors and getting to the root of why we do what we do.

Yeah. Now, when we were thinking about the theme, one of the ideas I had thrown in was A Work of Heart, which is the title of a book by author Reggie McNeil, and it's written for pastors. And what he notes in that book is how so much for pastors and leaders is often written about skill and preaching and leading and, you know, functioning with a board or leading staff and all these skill kind of based things that it does take to have some level of skill to be a pastor. But he was acknowledging that really the work we do of pastoring or leading is what comes from the heart, what comes from our character and the shaping that God wants to do there. And so he looked at four biblical heroes that we all know and rather than looking at their skill and behavior and what they did, really focused in on their heart development and their relationship with God. And I think that was what we were kind of drawn to in this theme was the idea that, yeah, when it comes to recovery, there's skill, there's tools, guardrails and boundaries and recovery action plans and faster scales and all those things we need to maybe learn and behaviors that we're modifying and working on. But if that's not accompanied and really I would say based on a deeper work of heart, something coming from the inside out, as Ashley just said, all of those tools and behaviors are only going to get us so far. It has to be what comes from the heart. You know, one of the things that I'll bring in my topic is from Proverbs where it says, you know, above all else, guard your heart, for it is the well you know, from it life springs or it's the wellspring of life. And the importance of if we're not attentive to what's happening in the heart and the heart being, you know, the seat of our will, our emotions, our desires, kind of that, that essence of who we are, if we're not paying attention to that over time, we're going to have real struggles and challenges and vice versa. If we're only changing behaviors but not also seeing a transformation of heart, none of those good things are going to last. And so I think to me, that's what this theme says about the summit and really all of our journeys is we're here as always, for long term change, you know, not just to stop a behavior, to change the way you do life. And if we're going to change the way we do life, whether we're the struggler, the betrayed hurting spouse, or a caring family member or leader that wants to help in this area, we've got to understand what God wants to do in our heart. And so recovery has to be from the heart. And I think that'll be a great theme this year. Yeah.

And I think that a lot of people, especially when they first. You know, it's funny, I got an email in my inbox today from someone who doesn't know much about us and is, I mean, naturally suspicious about what we do. And I think that one of the. My favorite things, I know this, one of my favorite things, if not the favorite thing that we do as a ministry, is we take biblical, like truth. Everything that we do is based on scripture, and it uses clinical tools on top of that to create transformation. And what's awesome about this theme is that the theme of the heart is huge in scripture. It's everywhere. And so it's something that we can develop biblically. And, you know, I'm sure I'll get into it later, but like, I'm super excited for my session too, because we're going to actually look at the physical heart and the things that that can do. So it's imagery that people are very aware of while also being super biblically rooted. So that's why I think I'm the most excited about it being this theme.

Why is heart and the concept of heart such an essential aspect of our recovery and our healing?

Well, like I said, just I started in on trying to clean up my life by just somebody give me a list of do's and don'ts and let me see if that works. But there was still some kind of incongruence with what was going on inside of me and also some of my external behaviors that I was still having. I just ended up swapping them out for ones that maybe look better, like over serving in church or having some struggles with food or control issues. But inside there was still. I still felt a little bit of war with myself. And so it wasn't until I feel like God shredded my heart through the betrayal that I felt like, okay, I can't trust anybody on this planet with my heart except for the Lord. And that's exactly, I mean, ideally where we all should be starting. We learn Jesus is our everything. Our identity is Christ. And I always thought, oh, that's just like fluffy new age happy thought, like Christian things, but full circle. That's exactly where I came back to. But I had to go through this whole process of realizing where there were closed off parts of my heart or where I did have shame in my heart that I didn't recognize as shame. I just was like, oh, the past is the past. I didn't know how some of that trauma and shame was still locked in my body and my mind and driving some of my behaviors. And so it wasn't until that crisis, like I said, where God just kind of like I felt like I laid there in front of him with my heart in pieces from John, from his betrayal, that I started to just really look at the mess I was dealing with, not only from John, but from myself. And so that was the first time I had experienced like an inside out change where I wasn't just volunteering as a camp counselor at a youth group. I wasn't just leading a women's Bible study, doing all these external Christ things that were really, really great. But it wasn't until I had this reconstruction done to my heart where I felt confident in who I was and I did have this identity in Christ, and I did feel fully whole in who I was, even with the messy parts. But I was not ashamed of those messy parts anymore that I was like, I have to share this with everybody. And so it was, it really did show me that when you don't have shame and when you take care of the things that are broken or damaged deep down, then you can live freely. And so I feel like the work I've been able to do in helping others since that time far out seeds the 15 plus work I was trying to do out of my own efforts. Because somebody gave me a list of what it looks like to be a witness, to be an evangelist, to be a servant. And now it just comes naturally out of what God has done through my heart.

I think it's also important because Scripture brings it up consistently. I mean, I think of Ezekiel, I think of Jeremiah, where it talks about it in the Old Testament. Obviously you quoted Proverbs 4, Nick. Like it is something that transformation of who we are and what we do starts with a new heart. You know, the Old Testament calling it taking God takes out our heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh or a heart that is alive. And I think that that's just why it's so important. But it also makes me think about what Jesus said in the New Testament. You know, maybe you're not sleeping with somebody who isn't your spouse, but if you have lust in your heart for that person, then you've committed adultery already. Or if you have hatred in your heart toward a brother, you've murdered them. So, like, that's significant. I mean, that says that it's not. It has so much less to do with what you're doing externally and more to do with what's going on internally. And I think to your point too, nick of Proverbs 4 is like, that says that if we don't take care of our heart, if we don't guard it, if we don't keep it, then bad fruit is Going to come from it. So we know that there's a tie there between what's going on internally and what I do with my hands.

Yeah, it's like an illustration of our car that if all we do is pay attention to the external, we wash it every week. We put on special wax. We're always vacuuming the upholstery. We get it detailed. Anytime there's a little dent, we get some kind of polish or dent remover, and, man, the car just looks immaculate. But if we never change the oil or there is a, you know, a valve that is slipped in the engine, Sooner or later, that car will be absolutely worthless because it will break down and not be any good. And that's really a parallel to what can happen in life, because we can work really hard on behaviors and cleaning up on the outside, and everyone looks and goes, man, your life looks amazing. But if something is off and unaddressed on the inside, it will eventually go sideways. And in those moments, to others, it can feel like suddenly, suddenly their marriage went off the rails or suddenly. Well, it's not suddenly. It's just that that's the moment that what was going on in the inside finally came out and happened on the outside. And then it looks tragic. And so this is our effort in recovery to say, man, we have to pay as much, if not more attention to those inner workings. And it is a challenge for us because those inner workings are more messy. It's less straightforward. It takes more time. I mean, the value for me to go home today and wash my car is in 20 minutes, I can step back and go, dang, that's looking good. I make a difference, and it's clear what I need to do. But if you told me, you know, go home and do upkeep on your engine, I'm like, you know, like, don't I need a garage with a lift? And I need special wrenches? And, like, that's not really my thing. And we might feel that way about our life, too. It's easier to. Like you said, Ashley, just tell me what to do. Tell me what to fix, Tell me what to stop, And I'm gonna work really hard to stop it, to fix it, to change it. But if someone says, well, man, work on your heart. Okay, okay. Like, you know, it's not as straightforward, and it takes time, and it is a process. And that's why I think whether we're in day one of recovery or decade 20 or decade two, that'd be a lot of decades. You are really committed to recovery. You know, if we're on day one or year 20, this work of our heart, working on our heart, paying attention to our heart, is an ongoing process that will just always. There's always something we can do. And so that's why I'm really encouraged, like, about this podcast or the summit coming up is there's something for everyone because this is a work we all need to do.

So, like, let's get into that then. What? Like, cool theme. Get it that we're doing this event. We can see the theme in scripture, but how will our exploration at the summit of this theme help the people who come in their recovery and in their healing?

Yes, this is good. So I was thinking about this, and you know, when we talk about holistic healing, which really, I love how Rodney's like, don't I just give the same six messages all the time? Yeah, I just read that because, like, what we do at Pure Desire, we know it works. We need to have the biblical aspect. We need to have community. We need to have understanding of the science of what's happening in us. And so, you know, whether it's below the surface or all in, like, we're always going to tell you, you need group, you need holistic health, you need all of these things. And so when it applies to digging into our heart, I love the idea of holistic healing is all of it. We tend to say, Christians, if you pray harder, read more Bible, you attend church every Sunday, but we forget that sometimes you need a nap and a taco and to go on a walk with a friend and all these other things that help contribute to our mental and physical health. And so when I think of. And this is going to be a trigger word for you, Trevor, going part time, I was really having some cognitive dissonance in there because my mind. So I think of, like, my mind and my heart are the two. You know, that means, like, two separate modes of thinking that are at conflict with each other, and it causes discomfort. And so that's how I know that something is off in my. Like, in my inner workings, is when I'm constantly feeling that unsettled feeling that discomfort. And I remember even when I was telling Nick, I'm, like, crying, and I'm like, I know this sounds so girly, but I can just feel it in my heart and my gut. And, you know, like, but it's true. It's very true that we sometimes ignore that because we're checking all the boxes. We're like, okay, I'm reading to my kids. I'm going to work. I'm going to church. But if you slow down enough to let the Holy Spirit wrestle or tend, I think of your tattoo that you want to get of God tending to your heart.

Mine, not Nick's. Nick. It's not Nick's tattoo.

I'm pointing like, everybody can see me. Trevor. I toss up my hand. But if we slow down enough to let God really tend to our heart and show us, do I need more church? Do I need community? Do I need a taco? Do I need to slow down at work? Do I need. Because it all interconnects with each other, just like our body systems do that if I'm running ragged, my heart has no margin for other people. It has no margin even for me. And so that's why our group process is so slow. Because it's not one thing. If you think of it like, in six quadrants of, like, I need to financially take care of myself. I need to physically take care of myself. I need emotionally. Just like our heart has different parts and our body has different parts, we need to make sure that we're not just pouring all of our resources into one area. And that's the beauty of group and community, is that we can kind of lay it all out there and say, where are one of my buckets needing some attention? Or where do I need to divert some other resources so that I'm not fatigued in this area and then being a monster to my kids in this area? And so. So I think it all plays together that we just need to slow down and kind of like. I mean, gross, but, like, have an autopsy. Like, where are we shallow here? Where do we need to do some cleanup or some care and some love to our heart?

Yeah, hopefully not an autopsy, because that's typically after you're dead. You know, we could go in for, like, an exam, you know, maybe an mri, some. Let's have a. It's an assessment while we're still alive. What I hear you saying is when we do that work on the inside, it will eventually lead to change of behaviors or maybe something that we take on, but not just because we're managing behavior, but because we really see, like you said, how it's all connected. What I was thinking about is how so many of us have grown up in the church world and we heard a lot about the heart. You know, invite Jesus into your heart is maybe one of the first things some of us heard as little kids. And so Lord Jesus, come into my heart. And have we ever really thought about what that means it probably for many people just is like, well, on the inside, in my thinking, I now believe and trust Jesus. But what is this concept of a heart? And how does these concepts and principles of recovery actually connect to this biblical concept of heart and the work that God wants to do in us? And that's what I'm excited about in terms of exploring this theme at the summit, is how I think it will bridge the gap for a lot of people between scripture and their faith, tradition, and recovery. And where is heart an essential component, not only in what we were taught, maybe as kids in Sunday school, but why is heart so crucial now? And what does it look like in recovery to continue to invite Jesus into my heart and into my will, my emotions, my desires? How do I actually do that? What does that look like? I think that would be a big focus of our time together.

Yeah. And listen, Heather Kolb is gonna be speaking from the main stage at this event. And so I can just tell you, you're gonna learn there is so much about the connection between our brain and our heart that makes impact in our life. And I mean, no offense to you or anybody else that's been on, but Heather seems to be the most popular guest we have on the podcast. People absolutely love hearing her talk about it. But that's what I love is not just her session, but having Barbara Steffens and Nate Larkin and you and I, Nick, like, we're gonna expand our understanding of how important it is that we care for our heart and then expand our definition of what it looks like to care for our heart. And, yeah, it's gonna be awesome. I mean, I'm gonna be there because I have to be. But also, I'm excited to be around this and to hear this content, because we're looking at it from all these different angles. And that's why the breakouts are so cool. And important is we have all these different perspectives and different angles that we're looking at this theme and trying to help us advance in our own journey.

Yeah. And it's funny that Nick brought up the church thing about letting Jesus in your heart. Cause I remember hearing the message of, like, okay, you have a house in your heart, in which. Which rooms are you closing off to Jesus? And you need to let him in all the rooms. And I'm just like. Feels so invasive. But I also. I'm like, I don't know. You know? You don't know what you don't know. And so it wasn't even until I went through this process of like the whole healing process and having that community and good resource to say, oh, there is an area I'm not being completely vulnerable with because I don't think we always know that we're holding parts of our heart back.

Yeah, stop living in a four bedroom and just get a studio apartment. Let Jesus live in there.

Yeah, yeah. Well, every, every metaphor has a breaking point. So some of, yeah, we want to hold on to what's valuable. And where I think that's what we might find is some of the metaphors we've been given about the heart that aren't from scripture but are just ways we've kind of Christianese to the heart. We might realize that's not that helpful. It's not really helping me see the work that God wants to do in my life. And so where we may to let go of some of what we've learned, that can be a healthy thing. So one of the big reasons we do the summit, Ashley, each year is the way that it creates community. The number of people I hear say that I just felt like I was in a room with people that understood me, that they got me, they understood what my spouse and I are going through or the journey that I'm on. And that sense of larger community more than just maybe the one person I've been meeting with or even the group. So being with others that are on that same journey as we are is so helpful. And why is that? Why is community so important to the care of our heart?

Well, I mean, a couple reasons I can think of. Some say that the antidote to guilt and shame is empathy. And when you're at the summit, you are like flooded with people who, you just know, these are my people, they get what I'm going through. You have no shame. You can just listen and have a diverse group of people there as well as a diverse group of speakers. Because even in our small groups, if it's at church, sometimes those, those can be still very like minded. If it's the same community that you're from or you know, you have your group and it, and it's great. But coming to summit is like expanding that diversity and expanding that insight because we all have blind spots. And so it gives you an opportunity to, to just maybe look at things from a different perspective or shift your paradigm a little bit in some areas. For me, it kind of reminds me of like this is an exhausting race that we're running for recovery. I hear that all the time in the groups I run of like, I'm just tired of doing. I'm tired of working. And so I always think of the Summit as like the little booster on the Mario kart track, like, give you a little turbo. I don't even like video games, but I like Mario. But that's what I think of it as. Even me as a staff person, even though I have to be there, I end up crying half the time.

And just 3/4 of the time. Don't lie. It's 3/4 of the time, 3/4 of the time.

And it just really a rally. It's really a chance to see where the next level is. I'm leading an unraveled group right now, and I'm going through it for the fourth or fifth time. And I used a different pen color every time. And I'm like, wow, looking at the different five things that I've been working on, or the same thing that I've been working on for five years. But looking at the four different issues, I can go through once for sex addiction, and then I can go through once for anger, and then I can go through the next onion layer. Might be procrastination or constantly feeling like I'm needing something. And so when you're at the Summit, I think it does just give you a chance to stop and think, how am I doing? Where, you know, where am I at my recovery? And maybe you've kind of gotten bored or you just need some extra encouragement. You're going to get all that at the Summit. You're going to figure out what your next steps are. You're going to get encouragement. You're going to feel your shame come down. All the things happen at Summit. Yeah.

And it's a place where you're not. The Summit is a place where you're going to be in the room, in the same physical space, whether it's online or at a host site or here in Oregon with people who have been on the same journey and who get it. I know I experience this sometimes and I hear it from people all the time, that they just. They have people in their church or in their community who just don't understand how important addressing this issue is. They don't have people who are open to doing groups like this. They diminish pornography or sexual brokenness or don't even believe trauma is a thing or whatever. And this is a time when you can come in and those blinders are off. Everyone there knows the work that needs to be done. They know that wounds are so impactful. They know trauma can totally wreck your life. They know how important it is to pursue resources that work. And I think that that's one of the biggest reasons why community is so helpful. Because just what you're saying, Ashley, it can be so exhausting. It is exhausting. One of our clinicians, we were at a staff prayer thing just last week and what was said was, I am so tired of recovery right now. And it's just like, I think everyone in the room is like, yep, got that. But this is a place where you can realize you're not alone. You're doing this event, you're meeting people, you're rubbing shoulders with them that are on the same journey you are and know that. And you can encourage each other in ways that people who don't understand the journey can't.

Yeah. And speaking beyond the summit itself, because I know many people listening to this podcast will be hearing it after the summit or not able to come, and hopefully they'll still consider watching the videos or streaming it in some way. But going back just to the question about community, and why is community, other people sharing a similar passion or a similar journey, why is that so critical to the heart? And I think of two things. The first dynamic that you already mentioned, Ashley, kind of that empathy piece of at a heart level, we're really made for community, for other people, for relationships. And to try to do heart work in isolation is almost comical because the whole purpose of heart is about connection and relationship and sharing and giving love and, you know, receiving friendship and expressing friendship. I mean, that's all tied up in heart. And so to think I can do this heart level work without people around me, I'm like, well, good luck with that. You're kind of missing the point of working on your heart. So, yes, there's definitely things we do on our own. There's places that in our private world, in our walk with Jesus, whatever we choose to do for maybe like devotions or meditation or journaling, like, yes, there's pieces we do on our own, but to never branch into community with that, it's really going to limit the kind of work we can do. And so community and the heart go hand in hand. And the other thing I just thought about why community is so essential to our growth of our heart, is in some ways our heart and mind can be working against each other or can be actually blocking one another and especially the mind blocking the heart. Because if the mind is really all about our logic, our reasoning, our thinking process, we have developed ways of, like, rationalizing what we believe. We've developed blind spots around some of Our trauma and our story that, hey, this makes sense to me. But it's because I can't live two stories and compare them. I only know my own story. And I've maybe got these blind spots that I just explain away. I've got mental kind of gymnastics I do that make me go back into the same patterns. So all those areas, if I'm trying to do heart apart from community, my mind is going to keep getting in the way. And obviously the goal is that our mind and heart are in unison. That what I think and how I feel are kind of this connected pattern, as I'm sure Heather will probably talk about in some cognitive behavioral therapy there. But the reality is most of us don't live in that ideal where our heart and our mind are in sync. They are out of sync. And sure, there are some ways that we're consciously aware of it, but I think there's a whole lot of ways we don't really see it because it's what we've become used to. And it's that idea of we don't tend to smell our own odors. Like, when you're in your house, your house smells like your house always smells. And you don't walk in and go, oh, this smells like. Like X, Y and Z. But you invite friends over. You said, what does our house smell like? They could say, oh, you know, lavender, or you guys just made cookies or vanilla, or this must be the kind of laundry soap that you use, because your.

Or lack thereof.

Yeah, or lack thereof. You live on a hog farm. I've told that story before. You know, you're not able to pick up on what you always see. And that's the danger with our heart is I think we've gotten used to patterns that are. That our mind makes sense of. But other people in love and in community can come and help us see the work. They can be like that mirror that's turned on us to see the work that needs to be done. And so that community can happen, yes, in the relationships we have in the summit or in our group or with family members. But it's just inviting people into those deeper spaces to say, help me see what I maybe not able to see. Yep.

So. And it's good, Nick, that you bring that up, too, because it's not. The summit is not the place that you get healing. But the summit is a gathering of people who have experienced some level of healing and want more of it that come together. But right when people leave that event, you're just going to be on the same journey. Again, we're hoping this creates a lot of that encouragement. And part of that is we think through who we bring in to speak. And so who's speaking? What are the sessions? What can people expect and look forward to?

Yeah, I mean, we have a huge lineup. I would say not only is it encouragement, but I really see a lot of people go to the summit and then and get new ideas and new motivation, and that's always what I'm excited about. And so we get to have Dr. Barbara Steffens here this year, and we're very excited about her. She'll be speaking, of course. She's expert on betrayal, trauma, and so speaking from that betrayed spouse's perspective and what's going on there. And then we'll have Nate Larkin, and he'll be talking about isolation, bringing that to collaboration. We also will have our very own Nick Stimpo, Trevor, and Heather on the main stage. That's always good. Nick's waving everybody. Look. And then I think even our lineup of breakout sessions is phenomenal. So we'll have things for the next helping the next generation. We'll have things for your sex life. What do you do with the couple that's just kind of stuck in that middle area? Like, maybe the initial crisis is over, but they're needing to work through some of those nuanced behaviors and frustrations that can be really hard for people. We'll have a session on learning what kind of masks we may put on and taking those off. We'll have a session for singles, how to reintegrate back into your family and friends, because sometimes you do need a little bit of distance as you're healing. Or maybe your family and friends are not the safest people. Maybe some of them were involved in whatever brought you here in the first place. So what does that reintegration look like? But we will certainly have something for everybody, in my opinion. And then we'll have a special session for Q and A with Nick, which is always really fun for people to be able to ask questions and pick his brain about pure desire.

Only if you go in person, though, we will not have that one available online.

So I wasn't even meaning to pitch that.

Get in here. And I just. So we don't, you know, sweep over. Another huge person we have coming is Adrian Hickman. Dr. Adrian Hickman is also speaking a breakout.

Does he want to be called a huge person?

I was thinking about that, too. I mean, he is a big guy. I almost made the comment, like, I.

Don'T need physically, everybody needs.

Very big hands. He's like this Arkansas farmer.

I mean, he shakes your hand and he.

That man shakes your hand.

I've never shaken his hand yet.

Lucky. You want to get on his bad side.

I just. Yeah, I feel like that those hands have held so many dead animals over the years. No, but he is so many dead hearts. If you haven't listened, listened. 281. I want to say episode 281. I could be wrong. If I'm right, someone give me a prize. But we had him on and he's one of the. On the speaking faculty for ITAP and is an incredible man. We're excited to have him and he'll be speaking from the main stage next year's summit, so keep that in mind. But yeah, we've got a lot of stuff that we're talking about. I'm excited for people.

Yeah, it's going to be good. And on top of all that, just the interactions that we have with others who are in the room or even if we're watching virtually, I know people are doing watch parties, going to the host sites or maybe you and a couple of friends or you and a spouse. It's the connection of, ah, let's talk about this together, that I think creates momentum because we get, we get some ideas and if they only land in our heart and stay there, that's one thing. But when we talk them out, we discuss, you know, I think the value of hearing a session and then, you know, everyone walks to lunch somewhere and you sit at a table and you're talking it through. It just, it takes it to another level entirely. And so I think that's always a highlight, is how we're able to take what the speakers say and then together in community, translate it into action and into next steps.

Yeah, absolutely.

We forgot to talk about the mc.

Oh, oh, yeah, okay. Sorry. Here, let me tackle this one. So for people who have been also. Yeah. And also, I'll just say this. I know some people. You're not gonna see me in an emcee role this year. I know some people are gonna be disappointed. Don't worry, I have better people to step in and take over. Ashley Jameson and Emmanuel Garraway will be emceeing the event. And you guys are both fun, you're both super competent and you're going to help us transition really, really well.

Yes. Okay, thanks.

So if we haven't given people reason enough, as we're moving towards the close of this episode, what would we say is Maybe our final reason or piece of advice. Why would we encourage everyone to attend, either online or in person, the Pure Desire Summit?

Okay, so I know for me, if I don't attend something in person or online, I won't watch it. I have so many things in my queue that I've purchased, and they're still sitting there. Every time a reminder comes up that says, schedule a time to watch this, I push it out like three months. And so go, because then you'll actually watch it. It's way more fun. I think it's a chance to invite people, too. I had once told people at a session that I give John the option. I'm like, this is such a good book for either, let's say our marriage or parenting or just spirituality, sex life. And I'm like, you can either listen to me, give you a summary of the entire book, or just buy it for yourself. He's like, I'll buy it. I'll buy it. And so you should come to the summit. You don't have to listen to me for the next, like, five days talk about it. But I do think it's a really good opportunity to bring people, especially if you know somebody that needs it. It's gonna be such a good, safe place for care for them. And then also, you just learn more when you can regurgitate it real time with people in the hallways and the connection and networking. If you're in person, you get to hang out with our awesome team. We have so many staff. All of our staff will be there pretty much minus one or two. Most of us will give you a hug. Don't hug, Heather. Most of us will give you high five. We'll want to talk to you, encourage you. And so it's just really fun because when we get to meet you in person and when we get to say hi to you or maybe you're online, you'll be with Sarah. She'll be your emcee and moderator online. It just gives us connection as we work with you and partner with you throughout the year to help you with your next steps or leading a group or whatever it is you may need. So there's, I think, so many reasons to join.

Yeah. And I know that we keep saying it, but I just. I remember when I first started in recovery and you go back to church and you don't. You don't experience the same kind of communication, conversation, understanding. But then when you and I still, to this day, when I meet someone, I can tell if they've done work or not. I can tell if they've been in recovery, if they've been in group, if they've been in therapy, the length language they use, the vulnerability that they express, the type of questions that they ask, the awareness they have. And those are my favorite type of relationships, because there's this shared language that we have where this person, just because they've been through the same journey or, you know, a version of the same journey I have, it makes them so much safer. Like, I'm so much more willing to share my story with that person or ask questions in dialogue. And you can learn so much from that. And I really think that that's the biggest reason why the summit is such an impactful event and why you should go is because you're going to get that exponentially by doing that, by going in person or watching online with a watch party or going to a host site, you're going to get that experience where, like, I still talk about conferences I went to when I was on staff at a church. Those were just such meaningful experiences where we had that together. And so to then cap it off with, I get to rub shoulders with all these people who are not only going to encourage me, but get it, and I'm not going to feel like a crazy person trying to explain somebod why our brain matters and why recovery is important. It's just a really powerful experience.

Yeah. When I think of the summit, to me, a word that comes to mind is family. I know that can be used in a trite way, but I think it's true. It's healthy family. It's people that love being together, the ones we've gotten to know. We love seeing each other. We catch up. It's not dysfunctional family where half the people get up and leave in the middle of the meal because they're angry. It's healthy family learning to do life together. And there's just something special about it. But, you know, I also recognize the timing of this. You know, it's maybe unlikely if a person isn't planning to come in person already, that they're going to be able to figure all that out. And so that virtual option, I think, is powerful. And here's what I would say, because I know for many of you who listen, part of the reason you listen to this podcast is because it's a safe place where people are having conversations. You don't get to hear other places. And for you, it is a form of community. It's remembering that you're a part of something bigger. And that's What I would encourage you with the summit, that if you've been busy working on your recovery or your A group and maybe just starting, you've kind of got your head down on your recovery. And at times it can feel like, is it just me and these four other guys? Like, I think we're the only people in the world that care about this topic. Maybe we're the only ones that struggle or the only ones that actually are trying to stop, or is it really worth doing? And the summit is an opportunity to kind of be able to lift your eyes up and see like, oh, wow, there's something bigger happening here. Because we talk about it at Pure Desire. We really feel that we're a part of a movement within the church that is really coming back to understanding what is biblical integrity all about. And it's not just something that we preach on and tell people, you know, don't do it, save it for marriage. But it's really a wholeness initiative of understanding my brain and my body and how they connect and how my sexuality is given from God but gets distorted by sin and Satan and how all of these pieces fit together into a healthy way of living. Most of us aren't hearing those kind of things in the regular interactions we're having in our homes or our church churches, but it is a regular part of what happens at Pure Desire. And I think when you're at the summit, there's just this refreshment of, oh, I'm not alone, there's something happening. There's a movement in the church and it's only just beginning. And I get to be a part of it on the front end. And I think that's what the summit can do for you. And so if in any way you're feeling a little isolated or a little weary or a little on your own in this journey, the summit is for you. And I believe you'll be hugely encouraged, Encouraged by what you see and what you hear.

Yes. And we want you to come to this event in person, online, at a host site. Go to peertoesire.org summit and register. And like Ashley said, like, register and watch it, experience it in the moment, if you can. We obviously want you to come to the event for sure. We know it's going to be an amazing time. We're really excited about it. But what we love too about the summit is it's a yearly thing.

Thing.

And the reason why we do it yearly is because recovery and healing never stops. It's always moving forward. We're always. Whether it's you know, I'm finally gotten sobriety in one area and now I'm living in health. Well, guess what, there are other things to work on as well and so we know this event is going to catch you right where you're at and help you. And so we hope that you join us, that you get to see Ashley and Emmanuel on stage and Sarah online and you get to meet Heather and not hug her for sure. So we, yeah, we're really excited. And Ashley, Ashley, thanks for helping us chat through this theme and encouraging people to join us at the summit.

Yeah, I hope to see lots of people.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from a wanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.