323 - Myth Busters: I Can Do This Alone

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello, it's me. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And you're listening to episode 323 that rhymed wow of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.

We just watched that movie recently.

Oh, really?

So good.

Yeah.

So that original originally is from Finding Nemo. You also do see some of that in Finding Dory, I believe as well. But.

And if, you know, if you're a father of, particularly of boys, it is a tearjerker. Man, that movie's like, ugh, very funny, very well done. Emotionally, you know, family of origin wounds.

Oh my gosh.

A father seeking us out, finding man, it's powerful.

And I would say that the seagulls who say that are also a great illustration for, for just the human nature that we all carry. Yes, sorry, hopefully I didn't ruin your intro, but we had Harry Flanagan on today. He's one of our clinicians, Father Flanagan. Been here for a really long time. And we talked about the myth that many of us believe that I can do this alone, I can do the recovery and healing journey by myself.

Yeah. And you hit on it that all of us who live in Western culture are in a very consumer driven, individualistic society that teaches us, whether we want it to or not, we're grown up to think, what's in it for me? What's best for me? What about my pleasure? What about my comfort? What can I get? Is this worth it? And it's all mine, mine, mine, me, me, me. And so even when we turn the corner maybe towards something healthy and we want to get better or make changes, individual consumeristic culture still does that. It's like, well, here's self help. Help yourself, do it by yourself. Watch these videos, follow this program, and just do it by yourself. You can get better and it doesn't really change to the empowerment of other centered living and into community. And really what I believe we're shown in scripture about what it means to live in a way that we're connected to God and others because that's what we're made for. And so I think this episode is a really powerful one to think through. What are the ways that I've maybe been shaped to think about this myth or people around me that think, well, if it's going to be, it's up to me and I shouldn't burden Others or I shouldn't bring it up. We just address a lot of the things that all of us think. And if you're listening to this episode and you're not the struggler, but you're the betrayal, betrayed spouse, you're the one who's gone through hurt and wounding. I hope this gives you some insights, and certainly in no way to ever justify or excuse behavior, but you've likely been the recipient of some of this mind, mind, mind kind of thinking, or I can do it by myself and as an outsider, like, just get help or just like, you know, stop doing that. I hope this episode maybe helps you understand where someone might be stuck and really gives you some tools and understandings that might be helpful in the journey you're on and the people you're on the journey with.

Yeah. And I mean, this is what's crazy is that this week we have an event called the Pure Desire Summit, which gives all of us really an opportunity to break out of this even more. So we talked a little bit, even toward the end of the episode, that even if you've been in recovery for a long time, it's very easy to want to isolate, to want to hide our sin, to, you know, let shame fester. And so one of the ways that we have is the summit. September 15 and 16. It's coming. It's very, very soon. And people, regardless of where they live, can now join us online. Nick. So give them your just best sales pitch, the most compelling. I'm just kidding. Why don't you tell people about the summit?

Yeah, well, you know, it's like being the one bright orange mug in a room of dark classical colors that stands out and is memorable. And people who come to the summit say that, that it's memorable because recovery can at times be a slog. It can be another, faster scale, another lesson of group, another week of making my phone calls. Or if we're the leader, like, I've got another group member that's not showing up or doing their work, and there's hard work to be done. That's the nature of recovery, that even when we're it with people, it's not an easy thing. And if it was easy, we'd have all done it a long time ago and moved on. And so we need those moments that stand out in our mind, that become a refresher, that become something that gives us new ideas, new thoughts, new reminders of why we're in this, you know, cast, vision. And we remember it, we look back on it, and that's what I hear from people is like, man, it was at this summit that I heard this speaker say this or in the lobby. I had this conversation and it changed the trajectory or our marriage. We came in a very wounded place. And when we interacted with other marriage that had survived and were thriving, we had hope. And so I think it just stands out in that way of, like, wherever you're at, there's going to be something there for you that can become a marker in your journey towards greater health and greater freedom. So we want you at the summit. We want you to get the content. We want you to be a part of it. And so, whether online or in person, we look forward to being with you this week. And, you know, lots and lots of people are probably going to listen to this episode after the summit until a friend recommended and they're listening to this sometime in December. You you know what? We're gonna have a summit coming up next year, so start making plans. We'd love to have you join us and experience the summit for yourself.

Yeah. So to register for in person, if you're in the local area or want to get over here very quickly or you want to watch it through a watch party online with you or your spouse or at a host site, just go to PureDesire.org summit and you can register there real quick. Subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't, just do it. We're on all the major platforms. You can also follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi and this full episode is up on YouTube as well. With that, here is time with Harry Flanagan on another mythbusters episode, Tackling the myth. I can do this alone. Harry Flanagan, or as you are known around here as Father Flanagan, though you're not my dad. We're great. We're just greatly excited to have. There you go. Hey, messed that up. Welcome, Harry. Glad you're here, man.

Glad to be here. And I'm glad also glad that you don't have to put up with me as a father.

Oh, well, there we go. Okay, so we're going to switch the episode to self talk today on how to better.

I thought it was going to be father wishing.

Well, we might get into that too. Okay, so Harry, you are one of and we've said this a number of times, but one of the OGs at Pure Desire. You've been here for a really long time and I've known Ted for a long time. Ted and Diane. And today we're going to tackle a myth that I think is both Present and very historical for many people is this myth that I can do this alone. I can do recovery and healing and freedom from addiction alone. And again, you're a veteran when it comes to recovery and healing. You've been through that process yourself and obviously an active clinician in this space. And so we knew you'd be the right guy to help us out with this. And as we get going, let's just start with this first question. For many of us, when we start the journey of recovery and healing, we believe this is something we can do alone. Where does this message come from? And why do we assume that this is something we can actually do by ourselves?

Well, there's. There's a twofold answer to this. One is that that the American culture, actually Western civilization culture right now, is a me culture. And ME culture has a fundamental driving force of belief that our value is based on how well we perform. And it is underneath that is a fear that if people really knew what we had thought, they really knew what we had done, they would reject us. And so. And so the way that we have protected ourselves in our culture, and we see this every time we turn on the tv. We have people who are trying to manage our image, their image of who they are. That happens in the church. You know, the old joke of pastors who stand up and talk about a conflict with the pastor's wife about where to squeeze a toothpaste, and that's about as transparent as they're going to get. So we have a culture that preaches that. But the other side of it is this. The church has not always done a good job with healing groups. And at the very core of the healing group is accountability. But one of the core phrases of accountability is this. It is given and not taken. But I see a lot of small groups that are, quote, unquote, healing groups, where advice is given when it's not asked for. Where leaders say, well, I only have a congregation of six guys, but I get to preach. Yeah. And so they feel like now they get to be the person in control. And so a part of this is that we have to create an environment where people feel safe to start disclosing their story. For some guys, they'll do it right up front at the beginning of group. For some men, it may be four months in before they get truly transparent in the group, because they have to build trust. And for us, this idea of being able to be the example of openness and transparency. You know, I was a fallen pastor. I came to my first group. I Was so shame down I could possibly be. And in the very first group I attended in the precursor to Pure Desire, which was called For Men Only, the pastor who was leading the ministry was my small group leader. And I was shocked because there was transparency amongst the whole group where the people were just disclosing to each other. And the ministry had only been three months old. And yet these men were so open and transparent that it gave me permission to start risking telling my own story.

Yeah, I think you're spot on, Harry, that we live in a culture that's very kind of me centered. And I think particularly addiction or struggles that we have turn us even further in on ourselves. And so we think, why should you do this alone? And part of it comes out of the lie we've maybe told ourselves is, well, I can stop anytime I want. So then when it comes to change, like, well, I said I could stop anytime I want, and now I'm trying and it's up to me. And just kind of that rugged individualism that we feel like, well, you know, I got myself here, I need to get myself out of here. And not realizing no, part of the reason you got where you are is because you were doing it by yourself. But another dynamic I think that happens too, is not only the question that I can do this alone. I think many men and women hear the phrase a little differently. They hear it of I should do this alone, because they feel like this topic is too messy, it's embarrassing, it's too personal. People don't want to hear that. This is kind of my own private life and I shouldn't be just bringing that to others. So I should do this alone. And I think, particularly if we grew up in very conservative, religious, faith based backgrounds, it's like, hey, we don't talk about that here. So the message might not be as much about I can do this on my own. It might be I should. That's the only way I should go do it privately, secretively. And yet again, not seeing that the approach to healing is actually part of the problem.

Well, and part of that too. I think what Harry, you were talking about is that you don't see other people doing this. Well, you see, the example that you get is you don't ever hear about the pastor who's standing up front about his struggles. And so you assume that being a healthy Christian or being a healthy follower of Jesus or being someone who's healthy sexually means you do it on your own, because you don't ever. Yeah, yeah. And I think because of that and this is what you know. And we'll talk about this, I'm sure, later in the episode, but that starts a shame cycle because then, oh, I'm not as good as the pastor or whoever else I see. Therefore, something's wrong with me, which we know perpetuates addiction.

Trevor, you and Nick are right on. I believe in my work in counseling, that until we deal with the shame, everything else becomes rather more like busy work for the people we're working with. And I'm thinking of some poor guy getting seven pillars, having no exposure to a healing community, and being terrified to begin to open up that book. And the first place he has to be accountable is with himself. Nick, I defer to you theologically, but I believe that in the course of my life, I have never experienced Jesus taking away my free will and that he always, as a phrase that Ted used with me was dignity of choice. God always gives us dignity of choice, even when we're making poor decisions.

Yep.

But I have been in churches where your dignity of choice is tried to be taken from you. And that can happen in an unhealthy small group. And that's why I'm so thrilled that we train our leaders for all the online groups, because it is so important that we have a person who is capable of healthy facilitating of the group as everyone works through their own difficulties and making it a safe place for some new man who's never been exposed to a healing community to join in.

Yeah, yeah. You got to let people come to their own answers at their own pace and not just have a dictated, here's what you will do. Because that doesn't lead to lasting change. So we're getting into it a little bit, Harry. Let's dive into kind of negating or answering this question of the myth. I can do this alone. Why can't we do recovery alone? Why aren't we capable of that kind of process?

Boy, you're right, Nick. That is a huge piece that we're only going to skim over today to get to this, but we want to talk about something called implicit memories. Implicit memories come from the limbic system. You are not consciously aware of them. There is a belief system in the deep limbic system that exists separate from your conscious brain. So when Paul says in Romans 7:15, I find the members of my body doing the very thing I don't want to do is actually the limbic system in a time of difficulty or stress taking over the brain and taking you to old coping strategies that you developed when you were very young. 90% of our personalities were formed in the first seven years of our lives. And if this was a four hour session, I could give you a great background story of my life that actually goes to 20 years before I was born, that had direct, powerful influence on my very existence when I was born, and how that has influenced me in portions of my entire life. So it says in First Corinthians 13, verse 12, a portion of that scripture says we see dimly. Well, Nick and Trevor, there are times where we, we can be pretty full of ourselves and thinking. We're thinking pretty clearly, we're seeing pretty clearly. But what we're not seeing is the backstory influences that influence our lives. We have blind spots and we have people in our healing community who love us enough to expose those blind spots to ourselves. And so this is at the very core about the renewing of the mind. But the renewing of the mind is not merely the renewing of the conscious brain. It's renewing of the whole smorgasbord of the conscious and the unconscious parts of our life. This is, remember that the limbic system, scientifically, from a biblical point of view, is what scripture in Old New Testament call our hearts. So our heart influences in ways that we don't always recognize. We're not able to even see at times. So we need people in our life to.

Ask.

Two things that create the environment that allows a community to thrive. Being a good listener is people asking me or asking you clarifying questions. And secondly, being able to express empathy for our circumstances, it doesn't justify or minimize the sin in our life, but it lets us know that contrary to what shame tells us, we're not alone. There are people who know our story and they still care about us. They still love us, they're still willing to invest in us.

Yeah, this cycle of addiction, isolation. So shame can breed isolation. Isolation can breed more fear. And then fear can just perpetuate the cycle over and over. Those three play really, really well together. And the more that we go into that, the less we want to reach out. And so I think that the only way that we can get out of that is by letting other people in is then addressing the fact that, yeah, I am afraid of relationships. We say it often here, we're wounded in relationship and healed in relationship. And so which I know we'll get into, but it's just one of the only way to break out of that is to invite someone else in. The biblical language is like, really, it's shining the light. It's not in the dark anymore. You bring these out into the light, and that's when it can be addressed and can be addressed in relationship. And one of the things that I've been chewing on probably for months now is just that idea that God's vertical love is experienced horizontally in our relationships and that they are a conduit. Our relationships are a conduit for God's love and his mercy and his discipline to come out. And it's not the only place, but that is a primary place that God's built us for. And if that's true, if we're not in community and relationship, then we're missing out on all of those things that we need to be healthy followers of Jesus and healthy people.

Yeah, well. And believing that we can do it alone is kind of making an assumption that the only problem to change here is the behavior that the bad behavior needs to stop, when really the isolation, the secrecy and the shame are just as much a part of the problem. They're like the glue that holds it all together. And so if we only are attempting to stop or change the bad behavior, but haven't broken out of isolation, secrecy and shame, either that bad behavior or addictive behavior is going to come back or something new is going to develop because we're still stuck in those same, same problems. And so that's why you can't do it alone, because the fact that you are alone and it is part of the problem itself. And so to experience holistic recovery, real healing that goes beyond just a change of behavior to a change of life, involves stepping out of those places of darkness and secrecy into places of light and community and fellowship where the healing can take place.

You know, Nick, Trevor, I love what the two of you are saying. I was speaking to a church in upstate New York for pure Desire. They had me come back for a week. And matter of fact, over the course of about four years, I had three trips back to this great church in upstate New York. And one of the services, they had two services. One Sunday morning I was speaking to both services and I asked them when God showed up in the cool of the evening, what was Adam and Eve's first response? And almost as a choir, this congregation responded. They hid. But that's not what Adam tells God. In Genesis 3. He says, I was afraid. His first response was fear. The literal word in the original language is the fear. Fear of exposure. Great definite beginning definition for shame. Right? And so undealt with sin leads to shame, which leads to secrecy, which leads to separation. It Preaches, by the way, in case any of you.

Yeah, no, we.

A quick sermon.

Yeah, right there. You're into seven pillars of freedom lesson.

That's right.

Yeah. But, but, but the. But the point is this. Sexual addiction is a coping strategy. So if it's a coping strategy, you have to ask yourself, what am I coping with? And that begins to unveil what needs to be healed for the addictive behaviors to be dissipated and removed from your life. If we think we just have to stop a bad behavior, we're going to be stagnant and stuck because it's going to be white knuckling for the rest of your life. And it will never go away because the real issue has not been resolved.

So we're already talking about fear and fear kind of lumped together with all of these. I like your visual, Nick. Glue that holds it all together. Harry, what would you say to someone who's convinced, and probably rightfully so, that doing it alone is safer? They don't want to hurt their spouse. It's embarrassing, maybe too personal or messy to bring it to others. Like, what would you say to them? How would you help them overcome those objections to really disclosing what's going on in their life?

Well, first. First, Trevor, you have to deal with the nature of an addictive personality. And most people who are addicts are not narcissists, but they all have narcissistic tendencies. And what you are actually describing is, I don't want to expose all my pain. I can't control the outcome. For me to expose my story, I have to give up control of my life. I have to give up control of how you perceive me, how I have to give up control of how I move forward in my life. Because now the significant people of my life are learning things about me that I have spent months or years or even decades hiding. And now all that's going to be exposed. And I believe that out of the shame and the fear that people are going to believe that I'm just a hypocrite and not worth investing in. And that's why the healing process, guys, is modeling the vulnerability that allows. That allows us to tell our true story of our. Not just our successes, but our struggles. And even those days when we might experience a relapse, that's really a key component. Because now they're being modeled for what it looks like to tell their story and discovering that people accept. If they accept Fred, they'll accept me. Maybe they'll accept me. But. But there. This is about self Protection. And not really about protecting their wife or their kids because their wife and their kids are already paying the price for the secret life they've been living because he's moving emotionally further and further away from his kids because he has to protect his secret.

Yeah. So good. I mean, the idea that we're driven by fear and. And that fear sometimes is what we're playing out the story like, man, if I start to tell people about my struggle, then everyone will know everything and I. I'll lose my reputation, I'll lose my career, my family will reject me, my church will reject me. And all this fear of what might happen keeps us. Because we can't do everything. We don't do anything. And it's like, well, no, maybe we're going too far down the road. Let's just think one step at a time. Who is one safe person that you could open up with and be real? And then from that relationship, could that turn into the one group where I'm learning to be real? And over time, moving out of my isolation versus if we think, well, to get real this and not do it alone means I have to stand up on stage and tell everyone everything all at once. It's like, well, yeah, I get it. No one really wants to do that, but could you take a step in the right direction to find that one person? And the other thing I thought about a lot of psychologists, human behavior, the people who study human behavior say that in life things either move from easy to hard or hard to easy. That if we continue to choose the easy way out over time, it's actually going to get much harder. Like with our health or a diet and exercise, if we always do what's easy over time, we're gonna have to do some really, really hard things because we didn't take care of our health, where vice versa, if we're willing to wade in and do the hard thing and to face it and deal with it, over time, it gets easier. And that's kind of what I think is happening in this equation for saying it's too messy. I don't want to tell people. It's like saying, I want to keep taking the easy way out. But the reality is, at some point it's going to get a whole lot harder. Harder. It's going to move from easy to hard. And we need to recognize, I'm making a choice, in a sense, to delay and amplify the hard nature of dealing with this. It's not going to go away. And so I'm just pushing it Further and letting it get bigger versus saying, boy, if I'll weigh it in and tackle it now, I can actually start to move towards health and getting better and having it, in a sense, get easier in my life.

Well, and I'm sure, Harry, you experience this in the counseling setting that telling someone or encouraging them with information oftentimes is. That doesn't necessarily break through the fear. I think there is an aspect here of telling our stories and how powerful that can be, where. No, no, no. Let me tell you what happened to me. Let me tell you about my addiction and how I isolated and the damage that I caused. But then I found healing. When I finally broke free of that isolation, I let other people in, and I started to experience healing. I feel like that that is a far more effective approach than just telling someone, oh, you're broken and you need to fix it, or you need to do this or need to do that. Telling our stories is. I think it's a more palatable explanation or proof.

Yeah. And like Harry said, it's how people can relate. People can hear in our story what's going on in theirs and go, man, if that worked for them, if that was safe for them, if they were accepted, maybe me too. And so, Harry, we're already getting into this, and we've answered it in some ways, but let's. So let's lean into that community dynamic, because it really is the opposite, maybe, of the myth. If the myth says, I can do this alone. What we're saying is we're wounded in community. We have to be healed in community. That's a common saying at pure desire. Wounded in relationship, healed in relationship. So why is that? Why is community so critical to recovery and healing?

Well, again, Nick, I want to start with the fact that we don't see ourselves very well. And a part of the healing process is breaking the denial that you have the ability to control, manage your image. Because the truth is, God, in his loving kindness, will, in one form or another, expose us. And breaking the denial that I can be in control of my recovery is important. But I think that, again, with the addictive personality, it's almost a constant in the counseling room that if I ask whether it's the husband or the wife that's addicted, if I ask them to tell me the difference between isolation and solitude, they're deer in headlights quite often, you know, and I. So being the reductionist that I am, simplify, simplify, simplify. Isolation is when I seek to escape the reality, the painful realities of my life. That's what happens when a sexual addict acts out? They're trying to escape their life.

Yeah.

Solitude is when I'm alone, but I'm facing my life. I might be doing my seven pillars work, or I might be trying to fix the faucet in the family bathroom, but I am facing the realities of my life, and I'm working forward in that. The number one sign, I believe, of an addictive personality is that desperate need for isolation. Because in isolation, they feel like they are safe because there's no one looking over their shoulder. But the truth is, it's the place where they have the least boundaries. And so it's the most dangerous place for them.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Really well said.

Yeah. I think, you know, we've talked about it a lot in. In our workbooks, and I know you talk about it, Harry, in the counseling, but the idea of replacing experiences and replacing behaviors is so important. And I think that that's what's so healing about being in group and being in community is I, you know, and I can specifically a number of times in my life where I've been honest with someone about something and I get rejected and I get shamed, and I, you know, feel that guilt and that despair in that moment. But then when I got into a pure desire group, I remember that first group, like, a number of things I would say where it's like, okay, I'm going to risk this here, because I know I've said this to before and gotten super judged for it. And you say it in the moment and you're not judged. You're loved, you're accepted, you're thanked. Thank you for sharing that. That was so affirmed in that moment, too. And my brain is like, oh, people can be safe. People can. And so in my mind, it's that replacement that is so impactful about community. Pure desire group, having a clinician or a therapist, someone walking with you because they're putting language to your experience and also affirming, like, what has happened in your life and replacing those wounds that you have in relationship with positive experiences. And the more that we do that, the less fear we carry when we're in relationship.

Both of you are referring to risking. And my favorite definition of vulnerability, I treat as a recipe. I have to be in a place of uncertainty where I don't know the outcome, but I feel internally compelled to risk. I want to save my marriage. I want to get rid of this addiction, whatever that initial move forward is. And when I do, I'm going to face my fears and anxieties and so this idea of fearless courage, courage is actually mythical. It doesn't exist for you to do something vulnerable. And I actually just blew my punchline. To be courageous requires the same things. You have to be in a place of uncertainty to be courageous. You risk knowing that you don't know the outcome and you face your fears. And if we believe that courage is a strength and not a weakness, then we need to be able to embrace vulnerability. But there's also another word that I think is an important word for the three of us, the word faith. Faith requires you to risk where you don't know the outcome. That's exactly what Hebrews 11 is all about, risking. And when we risk, we experience our uncertainties. But it's in that uncertainty that we get to exercise our faith and allow our faith to increase. So if we see faith and courage as strength, then the suggestion to our listeners today is that vulnerability is not a weakness, but vulnerability is an act of courage. It's an act of faith for you to choose to open up and begin to expose your story. But it begins with you being courageous, to recognize that you need help. And you have to acknowledge that to yourself before you can acknowledge that to anybody else.

Yeah, well, and that might begin with being around other courageous people that we're watching. Do that. That, again, is community. As I'm in an environment where people are doing the hard things and I'm watching them and learning from them and going, oh, wow, I want that in my life. And what I was thinking about is the number of proverbs that tell us, walk with the wise and you will become wise. To be around people that are doing what you want in your life is the way to see that in your life. But there's also a whole bunch of proverbs about keeping the company of fools and the danger of that. And I think, in a very real sense, most all of us would agree. There is a part of me where I am foolish. I make foolish choices. I gravitate to foolish things. There is a self inside of me. I go, what a fool I can be. And if I'm in isolation, if you think about it this way, I'm keeping the company of fools because I'm by myself. I'm avoiding hard things. And I'm listening to this voice of a fool going, yeah, don't do that. That's too hard. And I'm going to likely, just like you were saying, Harry, make poor choices. I'm going to do foolish things because I'm keeping the company of fools versus walking with the wise becoming like those who are doing the kind of things I want to do. And it's not just that I kind of hang around them like, you know, we sit together at the same church. But I think the implication of walking with the wise is that idea of doing life together. An intimate knowing of we're connected, we're sharing, we're real. And now I'm becoming like that group that I'm interacting with.

Before I had the privilege of meeting you, Nick, you were pastoring the church, and you were sincere in wanting to pastor the church, but you had a problem, and you didn't know how to deal with the problem. And originally, just like me, you tried to do it yourself. And mine was a horrible brick wall. But I've never heard about the brick wall for you. What. What was the final straw that told you you needed to go forward and get help? Maybe you were much wiser than I was. But the people who are afraid of risking, they're sincere, they want help, but they're afraid of the consequences. And there are going to be some consequences that they are going to experience that are out of their control. But what they don't believe is that the loving, caring nature of God, that his grace and mercy is still in operation in their lives, even though you carry such a judgment against yourselves. There's a. A little tool I developed in counseling that Debbie and I use. And it's a simple phrase. I'm not blank enough. You want to know what's going on limbically in your soul? Take 10 minutes and fill in all the descriptors you have about how you're not enough. I was just working with a young pastor who in 10 minutes came up with 23 items that were there. And his fear is if he told his congregation, if he told his leadership team, he would be booted out the door. He would be. He would lose fellowship. And I just heard this morning a story from one of my friends about a fellow on the east coast who got booted out, kicked out of his denomination because he challenged his father's theology, who was the head of that Christian organization. And he loses his father, he loses his pastor, he loses his community. And that is the fear of every single person who is fearing that they're going to be. When they disclose, they'll be rejected.

So we have talked a lot about the negative side or the fear, what can come from there or why that happens. But let's turn now. What are the benefits of doing recovery or healing group with other people? And why can't I mean, we've already kind of talked about why can't we do recovery groups alone? But what is so beneficial about doing it with other people?

Trevor, I want to. To balance that, because I think you're absolutely. That that's what we need to go. But. But first, understand that if you go alone, you can learn to survive with your addiction. Yeah, right. But we were created to thrive.

Amen.

Not survive. And thriving requires the intimacy of healthy relationships, healthy friendships. And so in the free will that everybody has, they are going to make a choice to either thrive with their life, which is. Nick. They're making the hard choices they need to make now so that life gets much more pleasant. You know, here I am, a fallen pastor, lost my family, and I would tell you, the last 30 years of my life have been by far and away the best 30 years of my life. And I'm sitting in a wheelchair, for heaven's sake. But I am thriving because I went on this journey of transformation, this journey of learning to thrive, to live in community where I am loved. And I have the privilege of supporting and helping other people who are going through the same process I am. They may be other addicts like me, but they also may have their own issues that are unlike me. But the fact is, we go through life supporting each other, having each other's back, and that's where we thrive. That's where a marriage thrives.

Yeah, I love it. From surviving to thriving, we were made to thrive. To me, it makes me think of the other illustration of building IKEA furniture. You know, how many of us you're looking at the description. Or maybe not even ikea, you know, maybe it's when you buy furniture from a little lesser known brand, and the instruction manual was made in China and it's been translated into English, and you're, like, looking at the pictures and the description isn't quite right. And you're trying to figure out, and if, you know, if you work hard enough long enough, eventually you build it. But it is an aggravating process. So how many of us have had that? And what do we do? We go to YouTube or somewhere and we watch a video of someone else building it. It's like. Like, oh, that's what I'm supposed to be doing. That's what they mean by part B and all that. And then how much better if you didn't even have to go to YouTube, if there was someone in the room with you going, well, this is the way here. Let's build together. I'm going to build mine, you build yours. Do it like this. Well, we'd all say, well, yeah, that'd be way better. Well, that's what we're talking about. In a group experience, you can get a book, you can follow the steps, you can try your best. But I think of the number of times in group, I'll hear a group member say a lot like, oh, I totally did that. I totally did that tool wrong. Or I misunderstood that question. I was taking that in another direction. And when someone else explains it differently, like, oh, that's helping me a lot more, that makes sense. And then, not only that, we watch someone use the tool in their life and it gives us a new idea how we could use it in our life. And suddenly there's just kind of this exponential growth. So can I survive and maybe build the shelf a little wonky and with a whole lot of time and energy? Well, probably. Or could I do it with excellence and with a mentor right by my side helping me? That's what a group experience is meant to be.

And this is again, going back to stories, like, maybe even someone's not in the room showing you how to do it. But they're like, I remember when I was putting together that piece of furniture, I really got stuck on this step. And then I realized I needed to do this. And the same thing happens in group when someone's telling their story, they're connecting dots and you're like, oh, I never thought about that I had a similar experience. Or that reminds me of a time when I was a kid and this happened to me. Or, or I had a broken relationship when I was in college or whatever. It's one of the things that this is again, and I've said this many times, one of my favorite parts of group work. And it's also why you need to do your homework in group, because your healing journey, the work that you're putting in each week will and can very much so benefit the other people in group. And I've had that happen so many times. I'm leading a group right now of young 20 guys, like 20 something guys. And, and I didn't realize how me still experiencing similar things at 35 is helping a 21 year old be like, oh, that doesn't change in life. Okay, so it's still like that.

Okay, not when I got married, that would go away.

Yeah, no. And you know, it's just. But it's something that humanizes our experience. It doesn't make, you know, it makes them seem like, oh, okay, I'm not weird, I'm not abnormal. But also, as I've been through recovery for, you know, know, a number of years longer than they have, when I make connections, I see light bulbs go off. And I love that too, when other people, you know, Nick and I even on the podcast will say things where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense. I don't probably say it because I don't sound like a dummy, but I still am like, okay, I'm making note of that and to go back to my story, but it's just so powerful. Other people's stories can be so powerful for us.

You know, you're right. I find guys, they hear somebody else's answer and they start writing in their book. They're recognizing, oh, that's me too, and they put it in. But I had a fellow in my local group who wife found a piece of pornography in his briefcase. And she said to him, that's it, one more, one more fall and I'm done. And I was just a member of this, my very first group. And one Friday night he calls me up at 11 o' clock saying, harry, my wife has gone to a women's retreat and I'm one click away from a porn site. And I know it will cost me in my marriage, but I still have the desire. And we talked till one o' clock in the morning and he finally said, harry, I'm tired. I'm not going to look at porn, I'm going to go to bed. And so I talked him to sleep, basically.

Probably not the last time, seriously, but.

We agreed that we would talk every day for six months. And one day he called me up and said, harry, I love you. I don't need to hear your voice. I'm done with our daily accountability. And two weeks ago we had an afternoon together that over 25 years of a friendship and he is still married to his wife.

Yeah, that's cool, man. What a great story and what an awesome friend you were, Harry. That's really cool. And speaking of stories, I think there's a lot of fear around sharing our stories. And I'm thinking of the person who's maybe done group or maybe they've done some counseling, they've told a few people that now they've gotten comfortable with. Okay, these people know, but for some of us, there might be that mindset of like, well, it's these four and no more. No one else is ever going to know my story. I mean, that's how I. I was at the end of my first Group like, okay, I learned to trust these six guys, praise Jesus for them, but nobody else. And it was Ted's foot in my back of like, no, you need to share your story. And so for people that feel that of, like that hurdle of sharing my story, and even if I know people are essential to my healing journey, getting to that place of sharing my story outside of maybe those couple relationships is another step. So what do you say to someone about the value of sharing your story with others and overcoming that fear?

Well, Nick, earlier in our conversation, we were talking about trying to control that self perception. And the fact is it is exhausting, but it is also teaching people who has earned a right to my story and are they trustworthy? Are they going to be a vault or the other side of it for people like the three of us is that we've heard the Holy Spirit tell us that our testimony becomes a testimony of the Gospel of Christ. And so we have become public with our testimonies, with our stories. But we have to help people to go from the shallow end to the deep end. And it begins with them discovering healthy boundaries about who has a right to my story, who doesn't have a right to my story, and helping them to walk through the beliefs that they have in place that tell them, oh, you can't tell your wife this story because once you go back into a secret life, you're going to go back to your old coping strategies and you're not going to get rid of the addictive lifestyle and you're going to go back to trying to survive instead of learning to thrive. So there is a journey. But the fact is that the three of us have known because we've all shared our testimony is I don't have to. I'm a simple guy. I don't have to worry about whether people know my story or not because I've made it public that this is my story. So I'm okay with engaging people. When I have strangers approach me. And I was in an elevator once and someone said, are you Father Flanagan? And I didn't know them. It was a young woman asking me that, and she says, I've never seen your face, but I've heard you talk before and I want to tell you how much I value your story. But I was okay with them knowing this. And here's the reason why. My addictive story is certainly a significant part of my life, but it does not define me as a person. It's a part of my life. And so my telling the honest story of my life including my addictive story helps people to understand why I am who I am. And it gives them permission to begin to say, it may be okay for me to start telling about my weaknesses, my faults, my shortcomings, the sins in my life. Yeah.

And I think that that's something that is very easily forgotten, because I'm guessing a high percentage, if not all people that are in the healing and recovery journey heard someone's story, and that is part of what compelled them to then step into their own journey. It wasn't just, you know, it wasn't like. And I'm granted, this could probably happen. Someone's struggling with porn or betrayal trauma, and they go on Google and find pure desire and great. And they have tons of faith in it. They jump in and they get healed. That's amazing. I would guess that doesn't happen all that often. You have looked at reviews of stuff or heard people talk about it or listen to the podcast or whatever, or.

Someone, you know, totally shares about it.

Yeah. And so I think that you have to remember that for you, it probably started that way. And so you need to remember how powerful that experience was for you. And the language I've used, Terry, is just, I hold my story, in some ways, can act as the key to someone else's story. It's what opens the door for them. They have to do the journey, but I can act as the key for the front door.

Yeah. Well, and that was completely my story. You know, it was Dr. Ted Roberts saying, if you don't share your story, how many men and women in your church who are struggling right now are going to keep struggling and hiding it and thinking that's what they're supposed to do. And it was compelling to see, like, my healing and my story had actually become, in a healthy way, a part of the responsibility I had had to care for others, to lead my family. Well, I mean, if. If I couldn't tell my story in other places, how could I tell my own children? I mean, you can't. You can't tell your kids then say, now don't tell anybody else. Like, you know, family secrets is. That's not a great thing. So it's just realizing, wow, this is either going to become part of my story or I'm going to have to keep acting like it doesn't exist. And that's. That's again, moving us away from healing if we're trying to act like it wasn't there. And so it doesn't mean. To your point, Harry, and I think this is the Fear that holds some people back. It doesn't mean everybody has earned the right to hear thing all the time. You know, if we think of sharing our story means pulling out my disclosure letter and reading a detailed accounting of everything I've ever done, it's like, well, no, there's maybe no one you should do that with outside of your spouse and group. It's in an appropriate way sharing enough of the reality of what was happening that you're being vulnerable and you're inviting other people to have a similar experience. And we've done other podcasts on sharing your story, telling your story. You know, how to discern what I should share and what I shouldn't. How not to glorify the past, but glorify God. You know, all these great pointers, but I think if you just start there and go, okay, that doesn't mean everybody gets to hear all of it, but it means I need to be real about enough of it that others are invited in.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And Nick, I would add that because I think that is. We should bold that statement. But along the way, there are some people who are still addicted to the protective personality. They're still addicted to image management. And now they act like they have their act together because they had their disclosure and they're not immediately acting out. But the truth is, we all still fall short of the glory of God.

Yeah. Amen.

And we all still need. We're all still in the transition process. And it may not be about sexual addiction anymore, but there are other areas, and if you want to know mine, just ask Debbie. She'll be glad to tell you the.

Detailed list with sub points in alphabetical order.

Great. We'll attach that in the show notes. So, Debbie, send us that, please. Definitely.

So it's an ongoing process of saying we're all being changed from glory to glory into his image. It's an ongoing process until I have that privileged moment where I get to look Jesus in the face. I get to see his eyes, glowing eyes, looking at me and feeling the love, the value, the care that has always been there for me. But it's my recognizing that this road of healing will last me my lifetime. And I'm still going to continue in the process of being changed into his image. And I tell people I don't want to flatline in my spiritual growth until my body flatlines.

Harry. An extension kind of off that. Last question is, what do we do if we have someone that we see in our life that needs healing and recovery, and maybe we see them Stuck in shame or fear. How do we help them? Like, we can only control ourselves, and maybe it's, you know, we've told our story and nothing's happening. Is there anything else we can do to help that person?

I think the ongoing loyalty of leaving the door open for discussion so that when they come to their breaking point, they know they have a loyal friend they can turn to, to, you know, we all want our friends and loved ones to change according to our timetable.

Yeah. Into our image.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly, Trevor. So, so, so it is. It is having the patience to. To be available, continue to model your what. What you're perceiving on your honest life is like. Like talking about the good, the bad and the ugly, all of it there. But leaving the door open for them to be willing to expose, to begin to expose their story. They're going to be like a city boy who goes to the country. Country boys will jump into the pond. City boys will put one foot in.

Yeah, we don't like the water.

Slowly go out inch by inch into the pond. That's what city boys do. And people who have never been vulnerable and transparent for the most part, are going to be the city boys who just say, I'm going to just slightly open the door, and I'm going to wait to see how you respond.

Is Harry making me feel bad for being a city boy? That's my first question.

You know, when I think of people who are stuck that we see around us and we feel like, man, they're just trying to do it in isolation. I wish I could help or I care about them. I think three simple things that come to mind. Number one, it's always good to ask permission to make sure that the strength of your relationship is strong enough that you could actually delve into this area. So to say, would it be okay if I shared an observation with you, or would it be okay if we had a conversation about this area? Because they might say, no, I don't really, really. I don't want to hear that from you. It's like, all right, great. I'm going to keep praying and just hoping. But if they give permission, you know, I think second is just to share what we're observing. Yeah. Because maybe the reason you're prompted, that is you, you know enough about what's going on to say it. It seems to me like, like you're stuck in a behavior. I he. I hear you keep. You ask for the same prayer requests, or you make the same vague references, or you seem defeated about your You. And I'm. I'm just experiencing what I'm seeing is this. And then making the suggestion. The third thing I would say is cast vision, to say, you know, it could get better, it could be different. And here, you know, you've heard my story. Here's examples, here's resources. It doesn't have to be this way. And here's why I believe that. And then kind of leaving it with them to take the step. Because you're right, Trevor. We can't do change for people. We can't make them do it. But I think if with their permission, we can share what we see and cast a vision of how it can get better, that at least equips them maybe with that same vision to go, you know what? I don't want to be here another year from now. And there is a pathway this friend or family members told me about. I think I should at least take the first step and that, you know, then it puts the ball in their court in, I think, a hopeful way. Yeah.

Which is the way it should be, for sure.

Yeah.

Michael Dye in Genesis Process says that also Nick. But he. He adds to it that self discovery is far more powerful than hearing input and advice from other people with the ported solutions. But your being able to ask those questions allows them to ponder, even if, I mean, and this happens all the time in the counseling room. I ask a question and I let them sit with it and I might not get a response for two months.

Yeah.

But they come back to that question because I was pushing a button in them that they were. And they had to go through in their own timeframe, pondering and working through that before they feel safe enough to be able to acknowledge here. Here's what I've really been thinking and feeling.

Yeah. Yeah. Creating that space and then leaving them room to walk in it. So, Harry, if people are faithful podcast listeners and are listening to this in the day or the couple of days when it comes out, and kudos to all of you because I know there's many that were part of your Tuesday rhythm or Wednesday morning or whatever it is in your week, and you're caught up, and that's awesome. And many of you aren't, that's fine, too. You might be listening to this at another time.

Still love you.

But if people are listening the week of, we are this week going to be at the Pure Desire Summer Summit. And so just share as we wrap up today. How can events like the summit gathering with other people from Pure Desire groups and community. How can that Be helpful on our healing journey and be part of us breaking out of this myth that I can do it by myself.

That happens on multiple levels. By the way, the thing I'm going to be excited about is the people who are already on the way to the summit who are listening to this as they are driving.

That's right.

They're on their road trip. They got big smiles on their faces right now. They're like they're talking about us.

Yeah. But, but I, I think that that number one, it's the reconnection with people we have a connection to. Yeah. And, and, and the, the truth is, in the American culture, for those people who are passionate, the two of you are rock stars and they get to see you in your humanity.

Yeah, that's true.

We're so sorry. We're so, so sorry.

And they get to see that, that you are not putting on, trying to manage your image or trying to manage the image of pure desire. We're still growing and we're changing and we're going to make some mistakes and we're going to have some successes, but we're going through the very same journey. We're asking for them to go on. And they get to see a community of people where the synergy of the gathering of several hundred people who are all passionate about the healing process is going to give them a momentum going home. And there are going to be people present who are. Trevor. Like you and me, because I'm a city boy, I was a suburb boy. But same thing, thing. They're dabbing their foot in pure desire.

Yeah.

Is it worth it?

Yeah.

And once they show up and they sit back and they observe and they see the passion we have and the love and affection for each other that we have, they are going to feel a desire to belong. They are going to not want to be left out of what's taking place. Yeah.

Put that guy on the promo video, man. Seriously.

Thank you, Harry.

I want to come all over again.

We're going to cut the entire episode to just that part. No, I think too, it's easy for people who are leading groups to also feel alone that they're pushing this agenda, trying to get this into their church, trying to get buy in from leadership, whatever it may be. And what's awesome, when you come to the summit, you're going to be with a lot of people who have been through that process and who are in that process and who are fighting the good fight to try to help our churches address this better. And so I think in a Lot of ways your spirits will be lifted. And I say that in no way trying to villainize the church, but we run into hurdles and challenges all the time trying to get recovery and healing groups in the church. And so just know that you're going to be joining together. And the point of the summit is to try to help you, to equip you on your own story. Yes. But also to equip you to take this to other communities in the areas of influence that you have.

Well, they're discovering that there's a bigger community.

Yeah.

They may have thought of their community as just their small group group. They may have thought their community was just their local church. And now they're beginning to see that there's a bigger picture of their community than they may have realized.

Yeah. Well, you said it earlier, that idea that we all stumble in many ways, we all have many faults and failures, and it's nice to be in a room where when we say that, everyone else goes, Yep, me too. Welcome to the club. You know, you belong. You're one of us. Us versus others. Like, well, I don't know what's wrong with you, but we don't talk about that here. It's like, no, this is who we are, and it's a good place to be when we can do life together in that way. And so, yeah, thanks for that encouragement, Harry. That's awesome.

And I mean, Harry, thank you for the conversation. I mean, this is something where we know we can't do it alone. And I can say, in my experience, even though I've been in recovery for eight years now, there are still pockets where I feel that pull to go back into isolation, to not be in communication, community. So it's always good to have these conversations that regardless of what we're going through, that we still are working to be courageous, to address that fear, to break out of isolation and in community, allow the Lord to diminish the shame and to give us that love and acceptance. So thanks for being a voice of that for us today. And we're excited to see you as well at the summit. You'll be with us this week. So thanks, Harry.

Thank you. God bless you all.

And we're. Wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal, trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or are a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.