324 - Help! I’m In A Sexless Marriage.

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up? What's up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 324 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

No soup for you. Come back one year.

Oh, my Lord. No soup for you. It's like, there, but I can't. I can't do it. I can't picture it.

That is from a Seinfeld episode, the Soup Nazi.

Okay, not what I was thinking, so. And I know. Here it comes. Ready? Judgment. I have not actually watched maybe like three.

Like a late 80s, early 90s.

I know, but it's a classic. That's like saying, you know, I've never seen Terminator.

It's like, well, it's like me saying, I didn't watch much Samford and Sons. And it's like, well, it was late 70s. I was born. Like, I just, you know, it's not.

Your era, so I appreciate you trying to soften the blow, but I shame myself for not watching Seinfeld. I feel like even Dwight, one of.

Our producers, you know, we were in New York City recently with some of our major donors, and we went to New York Deli, and it was a little bit like that. Like you were intimidated. If I order wrong, I'm going to be shamed and pumped. In fact, the menu actually said, order mayonnaise at your own peril, because they were so proud of their Reuben that they're like, you don't put mayo on that. Like, what's wrong with you? So, yeah, it's actually more real than I realized.

Well tied in. I'm interested to see how this plays out. We had Heather Kolb, our content manager, on today, and really we're talking about the situation where someone's like, help. I'm in a sexless marriage.

Yeah, well. And I think some people feel like they made mistakes or a mistake. And then a Soup Nazi said to them, you know, no soup for you.

No sex for you.

They took sex off the table. And now they're trying to figure out, like, I don't really know how to get my way back.

Yes.

I wasn't given any. Just like in the Seinfeld episode, it's like, go away. Come back in a year. It's like, what do I do with that? Yeah. And so I think today's episode, we're just trying to maybe demystify some of it, that there's a Lot of reasons this. A sexless marriage can happen. And there are a lot of strategies or solutions that we can pursue that. It's as comes up in the episode a lot today. There's not one thing and there's not one way, and. And we need to just be able to take a step back and take a deep breath and maybe see this from a fresh perspective. And I hope that's what we're able to do today, especially if we've now got a lot of fear because we feel like we messed up and it's off the table and it's all our fault. And now what do I do?

Yeah.

And I think today's episode can provide a lot of hope and encouragement and some practical things that wherever you're at, you could start working on even today.

Yeah. I'm just going to be honest. That was one of the best intros you've done. That was one of my favorites.

Well done.

And the tie in.

I apologize if anyone's offended by the word Nazi. That's a. That was the Seinfeld word for it.

So, I mean, that's.

We don't mean to make any actual connection to actual Nazis whatsoever.

Okay. So before we get into it, this is a great episode. But real quick, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms, and you can follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi. And with that, here's our conversation with Heather Kolb on being in a sexless marriage. Heather, welcome back. Thanks for being with us again.

Thank you for having me back.

Do you want to be honest and tell everyone who's listening why you just said, I'm not really sure what's going to come out of my mouth in this episode today. Tell us where you're at.

No.

Okay, good, good.

Okay, good, good. Boundaries.

Those are good to ask questions ahead of time, like, see if. Should I bring this up on the air?

No, this is perfect when you're trying to catch somebody. Anyways, one of the topics that let me just give some backstory, we had to pull some of these episodes together very quickly today. And so these are definitely things that we are ready to talk about. But it is something that, yeah, we may feel a little bit, like, fresh in mind, you know, off the top of the head. But these are definitely, like, one of the topics we get asked about regularly. And Nick and I were just talking about this even more recently is this topic that we're on today, which is sexless marriages. And this can be sexless marriages that are, like, after Discovery during and or after disclosure, but then also just after the recovery has been going on and the healing has been going on. What does it look like to manage relationships, marriages, that sex isn't a frequent or even. I don't know what a better word would be, not necessarily frequent, but isn't really something that's present in the relationship. And so this is something where couples can feel really uncomfortable or even fearful about re engaging, especially if there's been a period of no sex. And so we're going to talk about how to navigate these seasons in marriage. The first question is really just again, we hear regularly from couples where sex is happening. Rarely, if ever is this common. I think is the first question why or why not? And then what are some of the reasons that this happens in marriages?

So I don't want to necessarily say that this is common. However, I think there are definitely seasons just in life that would cause or would create circumstances where having sex on a regular basis is going to be harder for a couple. Things like definitely seasons of stress when you have a new baby, you know, those kind of life experiences. I think even for some couples who are. Even when they have, like their kids are teenagers, young adults, there's a lot of busyness that they're coming and going, and even their schedules don't seem to really align. I think that that's where sometimes the. The pattern of regular intimacy gets disrupted for couples. Definitely as couples get older, you know, during, like when women go through menopause, that can create a huge dis for a couple's sex life. So I think that there are reasons why it happens. I don't know if there's a way to say that yes, this is common or yes, it's okay in these situations, but I definitely can say that as far as like, human life experiences and our behavior patterns when it comes to sex, I think there are reasons why sometimes sex rarely happens.

Yeah, I would say in my experience, it is more common than we think. I would hesitate to put a number on it because I haven't done research. Research and maybe others have, but it is an area. I think that just as we've talked about often that pornography is taboo in the church, sexuality is taboo. I think there is assumptions that if you're in a healthy Christian marriage and doing the right things, well, you're having sex and no one's asking, are you not having sex? And how long has it been? And I think that is actually more common than we expect. And that'd be based on people I talked to Men I've been with in groups that just say things like, we just don't anymore, or she has no interest or says she has no drive or no desire. And I've heard that at different ages, different seasons of life, I think some couples have just found a lot of difficulty around it, whether it's related to a struggle with pornography or not. Sometimes it's just been related to physical difficulties or disconnects in the marriage, or maybe even trauma or abuse that was brought into the relationship, where for any variety of reasons, one spouse or the other just finds that it's not something they're interested in and they choose not to engage, maybe at all, or it's only happening maybe a few times a year. So I. I think it's more common than we would. Than we realize, and that would just be based on kind of the idea. It's. I think it's vastly underreported because it's not comfortable to talk about. Because especially if, you know, to stereotype a little bit here, especially for the man in the marriage and in the way our culture is, there is maybe an expectation of male sexuality that would include, you know, I'm having good sex in my marriage, and if I'm not the presumption of what's wrong, why isn't this happening? So I think for a lot of men in particular, it's probably easier just to not bring up than to admit, oh, it's been years since we've connected sexually. So, yeah. And I agree with Heather. I think there's a lot of reasons, and that's kind of what we're going to talk about today. A lot that goes into it. It's not just like, oh, this just change this one thing, and it's all going to get better. It's like, this is a complex issue, and so we want to kind of give it that approach of, all right, let's try to talk about what might be going on. Yeah.

And I think one thing that I would say, based on my experience with leading groups, having conversations even in my own marriage, is that that discomfort of communicating about this topic. I think sometimes couples can slip into just bad habits of not talking about it. And because we don't know how to talk about it or how to bring it up, we just don't. And then that means that our sex life doesn't improve or doesn't get better. It just kind of slips into these. And not necessarily that seasons of not having sex are bad, but there be bad reasons to be in a season where you're not having sex in your marriage. And I think communication is one of those things for sure.

So to maybe create a foundation for that, would we say that sex in marriage is important? And why would we say sex in marriage is important?

I think this is a great question. And I've heard this from a lot of women who have either their own struggle with, with pornography or other sexual behaviors and women who have been betrayed. It seems like once they recognize the physiology that goes into sex, I mean, God's design for sex, why he tells us about this unique relationship that a husband and a wife have and that when they have sex and when they achieve orgasm, that their brain and body are creating all of these chemicals, like this chemical cockpit that was uniquely designed for them to be able to bond in this relationship that we don't have with anybody else outside of our marriage relationship, which I think that that in and of itself would make it really important. It's like if we have this one single relationship that we only have this experience with in our entire life, why would we not work really hard to protect it and understand it and recognize that God designed it for something that was really amazing for both husband and wife? And so I think that just even understanding that the chemicals that our brain creates when we achieve orgasm with our spouse were uniquely designed so that we would bond to our spouse, that would create like mate guarding behaviors in men and it would create nesting behaviors in women. And that those things would cause, would create contentment in the relationship, that they wouldn't need to go outside of the relationship to find that feeling because it's being created when they have sex in their marriage. And so that's what I think that a lot of people don't understand is that it's like, oh, well, I don't really want to have sex, but I'll watch a show. And it's like, well, okay, you could do that, but you're not nearly going to get the same chemical cocktail and feeling and experience that you get when you know when you're having sex with your husband. And I'm just saying that in the context of like, health, not in a betrayal situation and not when recovery and healing hasn't taken place. But I'm just saying that after you've done all that work and you're to a place where sex is possible in the relationship, that this is why I think that it's important.

You know, something that I've been thinking about too, and I've talked to my wife about this, that during sex it often, especially with today, in the distracted world that we live in, even in the season of life that we have with two kids, sometimes sex feels like the only time I have all of my wife's attention. And I know that your brain can be thinking about other things and in other places, but it's something where there is an aspect of it where you have to be very present. And I think that that's very beneficial for relationships. And with this question too, I think back to Genesis where they were both naked and unashamed, that there's this like, here's me in all of makeup and all of my. I don't mean makeup like actual makeup. I mean like how my body's made up. It still doesn't sound right, you know what I mean? But this idea of vulnerability and transparency and like, I don't have anything between me and you. And I think that that too goes a long way in marriages. And feeling close and intimate with your spouse.

Well, and when we say that we believe sex is important in marriage, I think we have to be careful to clarify what we mean by sex, because I think that's actually the problem that has been created in marriage is sex has essentially become a one sided fulfillment of my needs. And you're here to meet my needs. And in that scenario, it's easy, or at least easier to see why maybe one spouse would conclude, I'm not in for that anymore. You know, it's just, you know, giving you this high. It doesn't feel good for me. My needs aren't being met or even considered. And if there's been, especially if there's been a fracture in the relationship, that hurting or betrayed spouse might feel like, I don't need that anymore. And so when we say sex is important in marriage, just like you were describing Heather, there are some assumptions we're making about an effort or at least a desire that the couple has, that it be mutually satisfying, that it consider the needs and desires of both, that both couples walk away feeling like there was something in it that brought pleasure or joy, satisfaction for me. And that doesn't mean every time has to be the same way or every single time both couples will have the same experience. I mean, we all know that sexuality and marriage, a dance. And sometimes one leads and sometimes the other, and sometimes it's great for both and sometimes it's not. And I mean, that's the reality of the ups and downs of connection. But if at least the goal and the desire of the couple is we're in it for each other, we're looking for mutually satisfying, enjoying times, then we would say, yes, absolutely. Sex is a very significant part of the relationship because of what Heather described about the physiology of our body and our brains and the connection hormones and the exclusivity of that moment and just all the things that God designed it to be at the stages of marriage, then. Yes, but that may be part of the underlying issue here with some sexless marriages is what a person is defining as sex is really getting my needs met, and it's the other person's job, too. And if that's all that's happening, well, there may be some really significant roadblocks that are keeping sex from happening.

Yeah. So, I mean, in our line of work, we know that this happens, that discovery and disclosure happen where there is a sexual addiction or there is sexual betrayal that's taken place. What is the impact of discovery and or disclosure on a married couple's sex life? And how is that aspect of their marriage damaged?

So again, when we talk about sex within the context of marriage, you have this unique relationship that you only have with one other person, and it's safe and you trust it and you can depend on it. And it's all of these really great things. And then betrayal happens, and everything that you thought or everything that went into that experience is gone. Those feelings can be. I mean, really, in a lot of ways, they're gone. And so the couple then goes through this recovery process. But really, part of that is then rescripting or redescribing or defining this experience because it can't ever be what it was before. That's just. You can't ever put the genie back in the bottle. But what you can do is get healing for both spouses. Right? Betrayal is a huge experience, and so healing has to take place. But it also is just looking at it and thinking, okay, we can either go back to what we had before that sex before, or we can create something new that is all of those things that we want, that is mutually satisfying and is safe and that I can trust. But you have to be willing to go through the process to rebuild that. Otherwise it's not going to happen. And one of the things that. That they have found with partners, betrayed partners, is that when disclosure or discovery happens, that then immediately they don't feel safe. And what's interesting about that is that it might not be. I mean, it might be months before they can even verbalize what safe is going to look like now. You know what I mean? Because you've ripped away all of these Things that they thought were true. And so then, even in their own mind, they're having to redefine what all of these things mean and recreate a situation that makes those things even possible, if that makes sense. And so I think that when betrayal happens, it really does disrupt all of the things that a couple seem to share together. And in the process of rebuilding that, I think what happens first is this emotional connection that in a lot of times, you know, sex is even taken off the table because it's beneficial for both partners or both spouses. But then also just, like, redefining what it means. What does it look like for me to feel safe? What does that even mean that the room has to look like? You know what I mean? There's a lot that goes into this process, and I think that it is one of the most traumatizing experiences is betrayal by somebody you trusted. And so the path, the exact path of what that looks like for each couple is gonna be totally different. But I think the most important thing is to recognize that it is possible that even after betrayal, that you could have a really thriving sexual relationship. But it's gonna take time to get there, and it's gonna really take more of a strategic look at not only navigating the relationship, but also deciding, what is this gonna look like for us going forward? Because in a lot of ways, you kind of wipe the slate clean, and you get to decide, you know what I mean? You get to recreate something that could be so much more beneficial and pleasurable and rewarding to you as a couple going forward. But it's going to take that work.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's good to emphasize that in discovery, in, you know, a process of disclosure, every couple is different and unique. And some couples may be able to re engage quite quickly on a physical level, while others, it might be much, much longer. And one is not right and one wrong. It's just unique to that couple, to their story, to their family of origin issues, to things already present in the marriage prior to the discovery. I mean, for a couple couples, the discovery is just kind of the unveiling of a lot of unhealth that was already in the relationship. And so maybe their sexual connection was already strained. And then discovery happens. And for the discovering spouse, it's like, well, this is why. This is part of why things have been so hard between us. And now their interest in re engaging is going to be probably much more delayed than a couple that's maybe had some level of health. And then the discovery happens in A way that's being handled well and there's, you know, good group engagement and signs of hope and recovery like that couple might re engage much, much sooner. So I think we do want to release any couple from a well, are we doing it right? It is what you said, Heather. If to them it feels right and to both spouses, they feel safe, they feel comfortable, they feel ready, then the timing is kind of immaterial at that point. But it does occur to me that that's a big part of why we rewrote Betrayal and beyond. Because we have seen and research has shown how significant safety is for that betrayed or wounded spouse who is saying, am I safe? And it's not appropriate for them to be trying to re engage physically if they've not been able to answer that question for themselves and to allow their brain and their body to come back to a place of engaging in that activity in a way that feels right and comfortable and safe to them. So everyone is different. But that is a season of life where we've seen it would be appropriate for there to be a time where there isn't sex. And we really want to reject what maybe some even well intentioned churches or pastors have taught it like, well, you just need to go home and have more sex and fix this because that's why he's straying or she is straying. And it's like that actually might be contributing to the unhealth. And so there are some expectations around this could be a really good season to hit pause. And if you have questions about what's right for your marriage, for your situation, I mean, that's why Christian certified sex addiction counselors exist. That's why pure desire does what we do. Because we know how messy this can be. We know how difficult it can be to navigate. And if you're stuck wondering what's right for us, it's really a perfect time or season to reach out to someone that does have expertise in this area.

I think it's important to bring up that if you're in this situation right now where you've discovery or disclosures just happened, or you're in this season after that, to not compare yourself. I mean, you brought it up, Nick. Like this isn't a, oh, we're not doing what this couple's doing or we're not quite where that couple is. I'll just say this. You have no idea where each couple is at. Like there are people who, I mean, and we see this all the time where like someone has this huge addiction Or a divorce happens out of nowhere is what it seems like. But it's like, no, there was a lot of dysfunction for a while. And so just be really careful that we're not comparing, because what's healthy for your relationship is what's healthy for your relationship. And I think one of the easiest ways to, I would say, get in the way or create hurdles for the healing and restoration of your relationship is to project the comparison of other relationships, or what you perceive to be what other relationships are like, onto your own.

Well, and if you're in group with a person, you may know, because you just said you have no idea, well, you might have a really good idea happening. And I think that's a real thing. There is. I've seen, like, group envy when you're with a person in group and you just feel like we're both kind of doing the same work, but in their marriage, their wife is just totally supportive and grateful for what they're doing. And my wife is, like, cold and ignoring me. And there can be the comparison even of our situation seems similar, our effort level seems similar, but our marriages are very different. And that's where, like, yeah, we have to be careful. And I've told guys this. In group, you have to live your own story. You don't get to live in someone else's. And maybe you don't like certain parts of your story, but that's the only story you get to live in. And the more you get busy trying to ask God, why isn't my story like theirs? You're removing yourself from your own narrative. So it's an encouragement. Like, yeah, parts of it you may not like, but I also believe God is in that, and he's at work, and you can trust him. And so live in your story, even if it means maybe you're not comparing well to someone that you know. You kind of do know their story. And it's like, this isn't fair. Well, God knows that, too. And he'll work, I think, in the uniqueness of your situation.

Absolutely.

So, Heather, what if someone is in a marriage and this is, again, kind of assuming that there is an awareness if we want to work towards mutual satisfaction, enjoyment in sexuality, but they are able to acknowledge I am the spouse that really has no interest in sex anymore, or it's really happening very, very infrequently, only once in a while when they want to. What might we say to someone who's in that position in the marriage that just isn't interested anymore? What. What encouragement would you offer what steps might they consider?

So this is an interesting question because there could be a lot of reasons why somebody isn't even interested in sex. And some of it could be related to trauma, some of it could be physically. I know that for a lot of women that sometimes having sex is painful and, and that's not normal. And I guess that too, I would ask a backup question would be why is it that I want to have sex with my husband, but there's all of these things that are kind of stacking up against me and I don't know where to start? Or is it that I just really don't have any drive? And so sometimes I think that it could be a million things, right? And. And I guess that it would be to kind of sort it out and see what it is. Because if it's something that's physical, then you could go see a doctor. You know, if you want to restore that part of your relationship with your spouse, you could go to a doctor and investigate what it is. If it's something that you think maybe could be trauma related or that having sex or physical connection like that is triggering, then you could go and see a counselor who specializes in, you know, those kind of like sex abuse or sexual relationships and even look at it that way, trying to uncover or discover maybe something that happened to you that isn't even something that you are consciously aware of, but maybe could be inhibiting. I know that there are a lot of women who will. They never really enjoyed sex to begin with in their relationship, and then they go through menopause and then they're like, oh great, now I don't even have to. You know what I mean? And that to me is, I think is frequent, is something that happens commonly. But then it's a little bit sad to me why somebody wasn't even having good sex, you know, and so. And that it really comes back to that whole communication thing that we were talking about, you know, that women like at women's conferences we always do this huge thing on sex and we tell women about their bodies and these are your erogenous zones and these are, you know, this is how you can, you know, have great sex. And then women will come up and say, can you tell me those again? I want to write those down. Can you? You know, because I think sometimes for women, they don't even know, you know what I mean? They weren't raised in an environment where they even knew what they liked or didn't like, didn't like. And then they.

Or were given Permission to feel those things.

Exactly right? And then they get in a marriage relationship, and it's like, okay, well, this is more of the same. And so this isn't fun, and I don't know how to communicate this. And I'm just gonna make my grocery list in my head while we're having sex until it's over. And then. You know what I mean? And so I think that there are a million reasons why somebody could behave the way that they behave. I guess my bigger point would be, if it's something that you want. If it's something that you want to be part of your relationship, then I would invest in that. I remember one time being at a conference, and a woman, she came up to me in between. I was at the book table, and she just started telling me her story. She had been widowed, and then she had been married and divorced. And she was telling me that she's pretty much gotten to a point where she doesn't really even need a relationship with a man, and she's not pursuing it, and she's telling me all the reasons why. And then her eyes are starting to water up, and she's now tearing up. And that is distress. You know what I mean? That is not somebody who is even believing the words that are coming out of her mouth. That is somebody who is.

They're trying to convince themselves, even, right.

I don't need this in my relationship. And yet, physiologically, you're showing me something that reveals more truth about your heart than the words you're saying. And so I guess that I would take that kind of approach is that if this is something that. Even if sex in your relationship is distressing, but you want to figure it out, figure it out. You know what I mean? There are a lot of people out there, professionals, who can help explore this with you so that you don't have to live forever this way if you want to. I don't know if that really even.

Explains women making grocery lists in their head. Like, have you heard that from someone? Or. That's a very oddly specific comment.

It is oddly specific, and we're moving on.

Okay, So I think, oh, geez, that's my aunt, man. So I think what I'm getting from your answer is, like, just do something. Because I think you can very easily make a case biblically that God created sex for marriage and it to be something that is beneficial for a relationship and beneficial for each spouse in a marriage. And so I think that my answer is just do something like sitting on your hands and expecting Time to either resolve the issue or the desire from my spouse or to just all of a sudden, one day it just snaps and I'm like, oh, okay, now I want it again. I think that that is not a wise solution. I think doing something. And I think that that's oftentimes, at least in conversations I've been a part of, the struggle is, well, then what? You know, Because I think that's what we don't do. And I know for me, growing up in the church culture I had, I didn't feel like there were great examples of what that looked like. And so using what you brought to mind is great, because just doing something, I think is going to help at least us move in the right direction.

Well, and I know I've heard from couples where the one spouse, you know, that we're talking about in this question, they've just kind of given up. It's like, I just, I just don't want to. I have no interest. And they've maybe resigned themselves and their marriage. Like, we're just. If we never have sex again, I don't care. And that can be maybe a sad place to be. And I would just encourage you, if that's how you feel like, to own it, be real. Like, I just don't want to. But I would ask the question, are you willing to ask yourself the why question? Question? Well, why not? When I say that if I'm not even willing to explore why not, then I'm kind of shutting down a part of my relationship that we do see in scripture, that we do see. God made our bodies for, God designed our brains for. And so at least be willing to say, well, why not? And maybe as you unpack that in your journal with a friend, with a therapist, with someone you trust, you find out some answers that, well, I just have a lot of fear around it. Okay, address that fear year, or it's been painful or it's never felt good. I've never felt like my needs were considered in the marriage bed with my spouse. And if you arrive at some of that why and you're willing to, I think that would be a really important next step to communicate to your spouse and at least give them that information to say, honestly, I'm not interested in sex because I feel like you never care about how it feels for me. And just having more sex isn't going to fix a. So it may at least clue your spouse in to an area they could, in humility, start to address and ask back to you, well, how could we work on that. What would be some baby steps in that direction? Because hopefully if you're listening to this podcast and you're the one who just feels like, I don't care if we ever have sex, there's some part of you that wants to make it work, and there's something in your spouse that they're also wanting to work on something they may be just drowning, feeling like. Like, I don't even know what to start on because I ask if we can have sex and I just get, no, I'm never interested. And I don't really know why. I was thinking, too, of this episode. Ben Franklin's the one who said, for every problem, there is a solution that is simple, clear, and wrong. And I think sometimes we can have that mindset when it comes to sex and marriage. Like, if we just did this one thing different. Or if you would only. Or if I would only. And I think what Heather's brought up in several of these answers is this is often very complex and layered and multifaceted. And so you may need to deal with that it hasn't felt good physically and that there's unresolved trauma from your past and your needs aren't being met. And maybe you don't understand your body to the degree that would help you function well in sex. So if you feel like, well, I don't think there is any one thing. I'd say, well, yeah, that's kind of how we are as human beings to think it's just one thing. It'd be great if that's all it was, but it's probably multifaceted. But I would just encourage you, the more you can unpack that, even if you're not having it, your goal to be, I hope soon we start having great sex again. Your goal is just to understand yourself and what's driving your motives. I think you're going to learn some healthy things that you will at least have some tools to work on and to grow in.

Yeah. And I would just. I want to circle back really quick with all of this. This is never going to ask you to do things that make you feel unsafe. Like, we're not asking you to open yourself up to those things, but there is gonna be a risk in re engaging. And so I think finding that balance between is this risky and uncomfortable versus is this safe or unsafe? Finding that balance. Because you do need to do what keeps you safe and feeling safe if you wanna reengage in this. Okay, so let's look at the other side. We already looked at if Someone is the one who has zero or very little interest in sexual. What should the spouse do if they're married to someone who just doesn't have the drive or, yeah. Is just not interested in sex?

So I think that that is a really hard place to be. And depending on the condition of the relationship, because this isn't. Again, there's all of these things that are going into the same pot, so to speak. And so it might even be that. That you have a conversation with your spouse and say, you know what? This is what I've noticed. This is a pattern that I see in our relationship. Do you see that changing in the future? Do you? You know what I mean? Because I think that information is helpful, and I always think that asking questions is helpful. Because then if your spouse comes back and says, yes, I mean, yes, I would like to have a sexual relationship, but we've had all of these things and I don't know how to work past that, then great, then you have a place to work from. If your spouse comes back and says, no, you know, I'm really not interested in that anymore. I would be fine if we never have sex. I still think that's helpful information. But then you have some decisions to make. You know that. What does that look like for you, being in a relationship with somebody who has made it clear that they'd never intend to have sex with you again? And so what are you going to do? You know, where are you gonna get the support and the counsel and everything else that you're going to need to make healthy decisions for you going forward? Does that make sense? Yeah, because I know it's really hard when you can't say, okay, here it is, abc, and you're good, because it isn't. It doesn't work that way, like you said, Nick, that the human experience doesn't work that way.

Well, and we've talked about it on a lot of the podcasts that we can't make someone else change. And I think if we're the ones that want sex in the marriage and it's not happening, we have to be careful that we're not getting into that mindset of, if I just did the right things, turned the right dials, had the right behaviors, then we'll get sex. I can make them change. You could be doing a lot of the right things, and there's things going on that are outside of your control. And in any marriage situation, when someone is stuck in a place where you feel like there's something that they're choosing that's significantly hindering our relationship and I can't make them change. You know, there are some principles or ideas we would give to anyone in that situation that are consistent. We'd say, like you said, Heather, you need support. You need people in your life that you can go to to help understand how do I work through this. And you really need to have a dedication to taking this to God in prayer to say, lord, I can't change their heart heart. I can't change how they feel. Would you help me know how to act in the best way, what I should do about it, what my response should be? And I think too maybe backing off from that a little bit. There are oftentimes when I see in these situations more that the spouse can do than they realize. Because sometimes the attitude is like, hey, I've been sober for six months or X number of days. I did group like you wanted me to. I'm not looking at porn anymore, so now we should have sex. That it's almost this entitlement earned it. Doesn't she see how much I've grown? Now we should have sex. And yet maybe in the situations I'm thinking of, often that spouse is missing that. There are still some pretty huge areas for the spouse that are not getting addressed. Whether it's emotional connection, date nights, help with the kids. I mean, just sometimes things like, well, yeah, yeah, but, but I'm, I'm not looking at porn. So we should have sex. And if you kind of have that arrival mentality or entitlement mentality, that's a good thing to check at the door and say, the goal here isn't that I get sex. Again, for me is your motive. I really want my spouse and I to have a mutually edifying intimacy and connection physically. I want it for both of us. Because if you just want it for you and she or he's turning you down, like, well, you know, maybe your feelings are hurt and you need to go process that. But it was about you anyway. And that's not what God created sex for in the marriage. So. And I get that none of us have totally pure motives, but at a minimum, you should see that, oh, my goal here needs to be for us. And I hear a lot of guys in group that under the surface I can realize their goal is for me getting what I need. And if that's where you're at, you've still got work to do. Honestly too. Even while, you know, you're maybe hoping that, that some growth happens in the relationship.

Have you guys ever had Those situations where you ask a question and you're sure you're not gonna get a legit answer, just like, why does this happen? And then someone says something and you're just like, oh, okay, I guess that makes sense. I had one of those recently in regards to this topic with my wife, and she's like, I don't think you realize that how you interact with our boys and when you get angry, how that impacts our intimacy. I was one of those, like, oh, geez, okay. Like, thanks for being honest. You know, like, okay. But I just. I feel like that curiosity has served me well and realizing, you know, just as an example, Nick, of what you're talking about, that there are things outside of even my relationship with my wife that directly impact my relationship with my wife. And so if I get angry or I lash out at my kids or I'm having a bad attitude, like. Like, that impacts everyone around me, not just me and my sons. It impacts even my ability to connect with my wife. So I think I would just say, on a personal level, doing that is gonna be beneficial. And it may be things that you've never thought of before. It's like, what does it have to do with? Like, it's just our kids, you know, but it definitely is connected. And then I think I just. I keep thinking about what Bob Vandermeer has said so many times in his sessions, and then even on the podcast, like. And he asked the question this way. So just stay with me. And if you get upset about it, you can be upset at Bob. But he was just like, if you don't have sex, you're gonna die. No. You know, but there is that reality that, like, love is sacrificial and that there are other ways to intimately connect with your spouse and get those needs met. Is sex a need? I don't know if it's a need. I think that it's a gift from the Lord that if done well and with mutual benefit to both spouses, can be beautiful and amazing. But if a relationship isn't having sex, that doesn't necessarily mean the relationship has to be dead. And so I just say, like, there is an aspect of when you're in relationship and you're loving somebody, it's even when things are not going the way you want it to. And so just to bring that perspective in, that this is a way, that this may be a season where we love and serve our spouse and come alongside them in different ways, hopefully, as we're both pursuing the answer to why. Why are we not having sex, why isn't this a part? And so, yeah, I think that's important to just keep in mind.

I would say at times sex might feel like a need, but that doesn't make it a need because you can live a satisfying, single celibate life and never have sex. And we believe that, and we think Scripture teaches that. And so that alone should say, oh, it's not a need, because there are single people that have, for very godly reasons, forsaken that in their life, and they're not lesser for it. So if we can get out of that mindset of it's a need, it's a desire, and it's a good desire in my marriage, then I can work towards it, hopefully in humility. So, Trevor, you're starting to get into this. But Heather, let's kind of come to this idea that if sex is off the table for any number of reasons, whether there's been disclosure or there's just a season of sexlessness, or there's physical things going on, there's maybe someone's just had a baby. I mean, all the reasons that are out there. What are other things that couples can focus on to build intimacy in their marriage and connection that go beyond just the physical side of having sex?

Yeah. So this is one of those things too, that I think sometimes couples have to be a little bit creative. But we have said a lot. It's in our curriculum, we've said it on podcasts, that emotional intimacy has to precede physical intimacy. And I think that sometimes when there are seasons that for whatever reason couples are not engaging in sex, that it really gives them an opportunity, a great opportunity to build into their emotional relational connection. And some of that could be even things like going through or even using like emotional intelligence to communicate, like, how are you feeling today? And using feeling words, not I feel like the laundry is never gonna be done forever. You know, not something like that. But just to say I feel overwhelmed or I feel excited or I feel, you know, those kind of that language just to communicate better, to build out your emotional vocabulary. I think also spending time working on non sexual touch is huge. It's a huge, huge thing, I think in couples, and especially if the relationship has been fractured in some way. And really, I think sometimes it has to take the form of saying, is it okay if I hold your hand tonight when we're out on our date night? You know, those kind of things, asking permission because I'm going to reach into your personal space. Right. And we've had issues in this area. And so can I have your permission to hold your hand tonight when we're out? Those kind of things. And I think that that communicates a lot to a spouse that you're. Because that takes trust. Also things like. And I know this one sounds kind of weird, but it really can be a really positive experience. But not many people know that your head and the top of your head is a really, really intimate area of your body. I mean, think about that for a minute. How many times or who do you let somebody, I mean, who gets to touch the top of your head?

One person.

Right, right. It's very intimate space. And so even doing things that are non sexual, like wash your wife's hair, you know, something like that, something that is going to have this intimacy to it, but it's not leading to sex. And it really has more to do with trust. Do I trust you enough to be that close to me, to be in my intimate space like that? You know, I think all of those kind of things can be really helpful. Moving a couple into a place where they do feel safe and they are building trust. And even if it's small things, you know, and these incremental things, I think that people find that when they do those things consistently that it really does create a really powerful foundation for change. And it really. But it's slow. Sometimes it's slow. And people don't like that so much. But I think that it can be a really powerful tool in redefining and recreating a relationship that's going to lead to physical intimacy.

You talked about at the beginning, like, it'll kind of vary from couple to couple. And just some examples of things I found that build intimacy is. And they may seem silly and not connected to intimacy at all, but I've realized that they are that. Like we have these apple trees in our front yard, that the apples are bad and they drop all over. And if they get bad, then we have bees and it's this whole stupid thing. What I've realized is that when I go out and I see him and I pick him up, whether I'm with Amy or not, like that grows our intimacy. She feels seen, she feels valued, she feels cared for. We have blackberries all over our property. It's just. It's awesome. And the fact that God made something that could hurt you so bad but tastes so good is unbelievable. There's a theology book that's a good illustration. Oh, gosh, that is perfect. But doing that as a family, and that's what's interesting. Too is being intimate in that way with your spouse doesn't just have to include just you two. Like when the four of us go out, our two boys, me and my wife go out and do that, it fills my wife's bucket, you know, obviously full of blackberries. But also emotionally or knowing that like sometimes there'll be dishes in the sink. And even if she's there or not, the fact that I did them, I'm still pouring into my relationship by doing that. And these are not ways to pat me on the back. These are just ways I've identified that if I'm feeling disconnected or distant from my wife, I just do these things and I'm taking steps toward her in that sense. And I feel like even things outside of physical touch or words or things like that, it can be small things that you do and maybe more acts of service, things that you can do that really can pour into that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we do have to. We have to guard against the thought that if I just do enough good things, then I'll earn or deserve. We've talked about that. But on the other hand, there, there is a need to be attentive to what your spouse likes and needs. And when you do those things, it shows care for them. And I think when we consistently see someone caring for us, it does open our heart to them. And so in your relationship, just to ask the question, what do we do to show care and attentiveness to one another? Or what can. If I'm the only one of our coupleship that listens to this podcast, what can I do to show care and attentiveness to my spouse? You know, for us, it's regular date nights where we get out of the house, we get away from the kids and the chores and the jobs, and we go somewhere and it could be somewhere, you know, cheap and easy, or it might be somewhere more expensive and nice. The goal though, is to get out and just focus on us again. That is so, so huge for my wife. You know, and you've talked about Trevor, that non. That non sexual touch of saying to our spouse, I would like to give you a back rub. And I don't want it to lead to sex. In fact, I'm not going to let it. That is not the expect expectation here. I really would just. Could I just rub your back? And that may be a brand new thing where our spouse is like, really? Are you sure? Yeah.

And you're like, I don't know yet.

So practicing things like that, taking initiative to serve them In a way that you don't normally doing emotional check ins like we've talked about on other podcast episodes of sharing your faster skill with one another, doing a fanos check in to get into some of the how are you doing without the expectation that that's just the prerequisite or the appetizer to sex, it's like, no, the goal is to build intimacy and connection. And then as we've said, if that leads to sex, then sex is the icing on the cake. It's the dessert, it's the cherry on top. But what we're really trying to build is connection and intimacy. And we've just seen over and over that if that's the goal and that's happening in a healthy way, sex seems to start to flow out of that without trying to make it a whole. Are you in the mood or not? It's like, it's just part of now our coupleship. And I think that's what we should all be after.

Yeah. So when it comes to re engaging with sex, what are our encouragements? Like, what are things that we encourage couples to do? Things to be aware of because you don't want to. It's almost one of those things that as you re engage, you don't want to do it in a wrong way. Maybe like too soon or. I don't want to answer the question before we even get to a picture. But just how do we encourage couples when it comes to re engaging sexually?

I think sometimes having an outside voice is helpful. Even depending on what has happened in the relationship and what they've gone through as a couple, having a counselor who can help with that can be a really helpful piece of the process. I know that sometimes when people have maybe not even had very satisfying sex and then something happens to fracture the relationship and when it comes time to reengage in sex, they wanna do it well. I know that they have gone to like even a sex therapist, which can be really helpful because that's somebody who basically specializes in the act of sex that could help couples in a way that maybe they're not gonna get from like a CSAT or a PSAP or the, you know, pastor counselor person. So I just think that there are other resources out there that can be really helpful. And I also know that we've talked about other things like if you're doing this as a couple that you want to reengage in sex, it's okay to have sex with the lights on and don't have an expectation that this is going to Be the best sex I've ever had because I've gone without for so long because it's probably not going to be. But it really is more about meeting the other person's need, being there, being present in the situation, you know, all of those different things. And even if you get to a point where it's like, okay, I don't feel safe right now, it's okay for you to say, say that out loud and stop the process. And I think that we find that sometimes, especially with partners, where it's like the idea of it is fine, but then they get into the situation and it's triggering again, and they have to give themselves permission to just say, it's okay if I stop this. And it's not the end of the world. And, you know, it's just part of the process.

Well, and in some ways, it's like, we need to go back and maybe relearn principles that if we did pre marriage counseling, we might have gotten some coach in how to have healthy sexual connection. I think of it like a good crime scene. They're always looking for the person who has motive, means, and opportunity. Right, That's. Heather likes this because she's into all her crime scenes.

She freaking loves it.

You want to find that person. And all three have to be true. And in a positive sense, for good sexual connection, there needs to be motive. You know, desire, feelings from the spouse for it, a motive. There need to be means. Is there energy? Are the physical preparation, you know, having time to take a shower or put on clean clothes. I mean, the reality is some guys work really hard, sweaty jobs. And if they come home thinking, my wife's just totally going to be in the mood, when there's not means for it, it's like, come on, bro, address those things. But, you know, in reality, when we've been married a few years or 10 years or 20 years, we may be so into our routines that we just assume, well, that's my wife. We have sex and we've forgotten to pay attention to some of those things. And then opportunity. Is there time? Is there a locked door? Are the mental doors in someone's brain about, where are the kids? What are they doing? Are those doors shut so that there is an opportunity to just focus on the two of us? And if you're not, like, if I were to ask someone, listening, well, what puts your wife or your husband, what makes them feel like having sex? And if your answer is, I don't really know, well, you've got some homework to do because You've just gotten into a mode of, well, we're married, so we should have sex. And if it's not happening, maybe it's because you're stuck in that mode and you need to go backwards in time and relearn. Like, what. What creates the right mood for us? What creates the right environment and opportunity? What gives us the right time? What does my wife want me to look or smell or feel like? You know, I mean, I can say for us, if I haven't shaved in a couple of days, the likelihood of physical connection is just not there.

Which is just a shame because I think you look good with a beard, Nick. I've said that many times.

It's just a reality, but. But it's a truth of our marriage and our connection. Like, I just. I know that's important. And so if I come in, you know, at the end of a long day, and I've got a couple days beard going, and I just expect my wife's gonna be okay with that, then I'm. I'm not really paying attention to what she has communicated. She likes. Because she's like, don't kiss me. Like, what, kid? I don't like that. And, you know, any. And for more for her, it's like. And you know that.

Yeah.

So why don't you do the things that, you know, I. I mean, I think we gotta pay attention to that too.

Yeah. So what I'm hearing is shower and shave.

Sometimes it is the simple things, Trevor. It is.

That is, I think, communication back to that again. And I think in that, too, the thought of. Embrace the awkwardness. Like, if you haven't had sex in a while, it is gonna be awkward, and even the communication about it will feel awkward. And that's okay. Like, because again, this is a relationship that should be the safest one in the world. And so you should be able to, like, laugh about things and feel awkward and weird, but know that I'm with someone that that's okay to be that way with. And I think that those are two important things other than the shower and the shave part. So those are important, too.

So at what point, Heather, would you suggest that a couple look to outside help that you would say, boy, here's some kind of pointers for when calling a therapist. Meeting with a counselor, getting some input is really necessary.

If they've gone through the healing process, like the recovery and healing process, and things are not improving on their own, then I would definitely consider some outside help. I know that, and we've talked about that. It's very common that when betrayal has happened in a relationship that they'll take sex off the table for 90 days. I've also heard of situations where if one person can't seem to maintain sobriety, right, and there's continued relapse, then every time that they relapse, they add time to that timeline. And that can be, I think, even distressing for the couple in general. And so I think that when those kind of things are happening and when you can see that the not having sex is creating other big issues in the relationship, that where it's just like, okay, we feel like we're getting buried alive and we're never gonna come out of this. This hole and we need some help. I think that that's when bringing in an outside voice can be really helpful. It's interesting because sometimes, and especially when we find ourselves in these situations, is that my ability? So, for example, if I'm trying to figure out what it is that's going to make me feel safe or help me trust my spouse or move me in a direction that's going to help me to want to have sex with him, but I keep processing it in my same wounded, betrayed brain. I'm only ever gonna come up with the same solutions. You know what I mean? And so sometimes we need that outside objective voice to really give our brain something else to think about, to insert something different and new and something that we wouldn't think of on our own but into the equation to make it all make sense. And I think that that's the value that comes from when we allow other people to speak into our lives or to give us counsel and these kind of things, is that it really is kind of adding more to what we're able to come up with or what we're capable of on our own.

Yeah. I just think of if you're stuck or you're spinning on something over and over again, I mean, what's the. Like, what's so negative about going to get help? You know, if I have, like a nagging back issue that continues on and on and on, and everything I've tried by myself doesn't work. I mean, if I went to the doctor, no one would be like, well, that was dumb. Why'd you do that? Like, good, I'm glad that you did. And I think the same is true here. If you just. If you have something that's painful or, you know, is an issue in your relationship or doesn't quite seem like it should be, or it is the way that it should be. Then if you're stuck in spinning, go, like, go somewhere. And maybe it doesn't start with a counselor. Maybe it's a pastor or maybe it's a. A group member. But, I mean, counseling is always something that we recommend.

Yeah. I thought of two situations where I would say definitely pursue outside help. Number one is if you can't talk about it without fighting about it, if you can't engage in this without one or both of you getting pretty amped pretty fast, it's like, okay, we need some outside input here because we're, you know, the stuck isn't just one of us stuck. Like, our relationship is stuck in a pattern that it's so triggering. Someone's got to talk us through a different way of getting into this. The other scenario I thought of is that if the spouse who doesn't want to have sex wants outside help, you should do it. I mean, honestly, if you're in a situation where they don't want to have sex, but they're saying, could we go meet with the counselor? And you're saying no, then, buddy, you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

Counseling, Right?

Like, honestly, you need to turn off the podcast and just go make the phone call because your spouse is giving you something they think might help. A doorway that you could walk through. And if you're rejecting and saying, oh, we don't need that. We just need to start having sex. Like, you're. You're showing in your response that you're not ready to pay attention to their needs. You're showing by your resistance that you don't really want to grow. And it's. It's probably creating fear for your spouse. It's just going to be more of the same. And so if the spouse that doesn't want sex wants outside help, go for it. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. And there are really great people out there that can create some real momentum in your relationship. So please don't be resistant if they're asking for help.

This is such. And we know this. This is such a difficult season because you can feel stuck. You're unsure of what to do. Both spouses on either side unsure of what it looks like to move forward. But we definitely hope our conversation today was helpful just to maybe even kickstart some new thinking or some new conversations, because there are seasons where this is totally normal and. And it's. And it's okay to do that. But then there are seasons where something. It's clear something else is going on, and so we just hope that from our conversation today you take away an encouragement to evaluate if this is your situation, where are you at? Are you in that good season and you're reworking on your relationship? Or are you in a season that we really need to press into this more and figure out what's going on? So head, thanks for your time and your thoughts today. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Peer to Desire is here to help you take back your life from a wanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy. It.