325 - The 5 Brain Bugs

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy day, listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 325 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Do or do not. There is no try.

Okay. I am so excited for what Dwight is gonna do with this YouTube short. I just am so excited. So I'm trying to, trying to pull it together.

Pull it together, man. Now you know the reason for my face. I'm not a great impersonator. So I had to like, try to get into a mindset and think, okay, how do I make that voice? What, what does it sound?

How do I act like a small green.

It's probably nothing like it, but Yoda was. Yeah, it was my Yoda.

It was Yoda. I mean, I've heard worse. I think it's the first thought, the second one, for whatever reason, my father in law, my kids repeat this all the time, but he always does Yoda's voice but says, a Gemini you will be. And I don't know why, I don't know where that comes from, but my kids come home and are like, a Gemini you will be. And it's like, oh my gosh, what's happening? Okay, anyways, Star wars is amazing. Probably my favorite franchise of all time. And yes, it's better than Star Trek, no question. Now that hot take's out of the way, we had Richmore on today to really talk through something and maybe Dwight can go to the front facing camera here. Compassionate Warrior, our newest resource for men who've been through seven pillars of freedom. This is the follow up resource to that. We talked about something in there that Dr. Ted has written and they're the five brain bugs.

Yes. Well, in the Compassionate Warrior, Dr. Ted Roberts and his wife Diane and one of our clinicians, Robert Vandermeer, all write and some of the narrative they use is what we call the hero's journey or the warrior's journey of walking through this process of change. And so throughout the workbook, there are movie references including Star wars and Yoda. And so I wanted to give a nod to that. But it's also, I think, a recognition of what we're talking about, the brain bugs of when it comes to recovery. Like, we don't want to do it halfway. We don't want to say, well, I'll try to not relapse anymore. Like, try that with your spouse and see how I'm going to Try not to like, okay, great, see you later. It really is like, either be in recovery and be all in. And we talk about it, like, make this your priority or just don't do it. Because it's not something that works if you go halfway. And I think what we have found for a lot of people is they make some initial progress. They think, oh, I'm free. This is the best I've ever been. I'm good to go. And a little ways down the road, maybe months or even years, they're back into an old pattern. They're like, what happened? And it may be that they got beyond that initial recovery and now they're not really all in anymore. They're just kind of trying to maintain, and it's not working. And so the Compassionate Warrior is a great resource that helps people think through that whole process. But in the episode today, we really wanted to specifically get into five things that Dr. Ted found in working with these clients that would come back to him after a year of being away or five years of being away and say, I relapsed again. What's going on? These were the things he just saw to be consistently happening in people's lives. And, you know, quick story about this, why I'm so excited that the Compassionate Warrior has come out. When I came to pure desire seven years ago, Dr. Ted was telling me that he was writing a book about the five brain bugs, and simultaneously he was writing a study on the book of Romans. And I'm like, that's great. I don't know how we're going to use either of those, but let me know. Basically said, when you're done, give me the rough draft and we'll review it.

Sure.

Well, he kept writing and working, and for Anyone that knows Dr. Ted, he's a very reflective guy that goes to the Lord with all things. And about a year or two into that, he came to me and said, I really feel like God has put it on my heart to combine these ideas that they go together. I hadn't seen it before. And so the Compassionate Warrior became a combination of these relapse prevention tools that he was working on and a study of our character and godliness through the book of Romans. And so you're actually going to see those things woven throughout the book. And so I just thought it was neat that today we could kind of give a nod to one half of the origin of the workbook by talking through those five brain bugs.

Yeah. And we would just. I'll just take this second here just to say that this resource is out now. And if you have been through seven pillars of freedom, if you have been through it once or twice, maybe even if you've been through the living free resource that we have, this is a resource that lifts your eyes from just the sexual struggles you have. And you talked about in the episode today really looks at legacy, who we are as people stepping more into who God's created us to be. So if you are interested in getting a copy or joining an online group, you can go to PureDesire.org Compassionate Warrior and before we get to the episode, a couple things. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can also follow us on social media, your desirepdmi on all the major platforms. And with that, here is our time with Rich Moore on the five brain Bugs. Rich, welcome back to the podcast, man. Glad to have you.

Glad to be here.

And I mean, let's just call it out because you've already said it a couple times today that if anybody has ever watched on YouTube, which plug, plug, plug, go watch on YouTube. This is the first time you're not wearing a black polo on the podcast.

It's the first time for anything. I didn't.

He has a podcast outfit.

He does.

You do.

You're wearing the PD shirt.

Black is very slimming when you're a big guy. Yeah.

And it's just a good color. I know when people ask me what my favorite color is, it's like gray. That's not really a color. It's shade. Yeah, it's like a shade. I'm like, well, you're not really a friend, someone I know. So. Okay. So over the years of running groups and I would say even in us personally, all three of us walking through our own recovery after a good season of sexual health, sometimes a relapse can just happen out of nowhere. And this is something that I would say probably in the last like year or two, we've talked a lot about on staff. Stuff has definitely come up about this, about wanting to address it. And I think that this is something that causes confusion, it causes shame, and for sure causes relational injury. Like I thought we were at a certain point that we're not. So today we're gonna talk about why this happens. And Dr. Ted has this thing called the five brain bugs and they're actually in our newest resource, which I have right here, the Compassionate Warrior. It's our follow up resource to the seven pillars of freedom for men. And he talks these five brain bugs, which I don't even Know if they're actually labeled that in the resource itself, but they show up multiple times throughout it. And so we wanted to talk about these brain bugs, which are things that get in the way of lasting freedom. And so we wanted to have you on Rich and really just have a roundtable conversation about this. These things that happen in our recovery journey kind of later into recovery, and then also these brain bugs and how to work through these. So, as kind of already mentioned in the recovery journey, many of us might have this season of freedom, a lot of traction. We're making a lot of movement in our sexual health, and then a relapse sort of just happens out of nowhere. Why does this happen?

Yeah, what I was thinking about in this question is that while freedom we talk about lasting freedom is possible, it's not guaranteed that there's not. It's kind of that arrival mindset versus being on a journey that we kind of get this idea that I'm going to arrive at a place of freedom and victory and I won't struggle anymore. And we certainly can have freedom and we can have victory, but to not struggle anymore ever, would imply that, like, we've ceased to be men with brains and a fallen nature and that we've somehow arrived in perfection. And so, you know, the question says out of nowhere. But as we've seen in every story, it's never out of nowhere. Just like our addiction or our earlier struggle wasn't out of nowhere. We learned that there were patterns associated with it. We learned that there. This had become a way of coping with pain or medicating, you know, strong emotions in our life. And that pornography or whatever we were doing sexually was really the outcome or what we were using to handle those problems, not necessarily the problem itself. And I. I think when we go through a period of freedom, the temptation can be that we're now somehow above those things. And yet what I see happening is sometimes old patterns can come back because a person is in a new season. Like maybe they change jobs or they start having kids, or kids leave the home, or they move, they take on more responsibilities, and they may re engage in some old patterns that because they're not as attentive to it, they've forgotten that they're old patterns or what can happen a lot, too, when we, you know, walk down the faster scale, letter F, that first step, one of the things under that letter is overconfidence. And we think, oh, I can be on these sites or watch these kind of movies or go to these places and not be affected anymore. And if we're doing that in kind of ignorance that I'm ever going to struggle again. Guys or gals can find themselves veering back into old behaviors or maybe even at other times having new behaviors come in, but for some of the same old reasons that they're still looking for something to make themselves feel good about themselves or a way to deal with performance anxiety about am I good enough? Am I achieving? Or how they're dealing with failure. It's just, I think, a common thing that we see when we really take our eye off of the recovery ball. And it's one of the things we say that we don't believe that a person has to be in group every week for the rest of their lives. But we do believe that in a sense, we're all in recovery for the rest of our lives. And that means we're learning to be authentic with God, ourselves and others. We're aware of our struggles and challenges and have a mindfulness that I have the ability to me, it's one of the great things about the traditional AA statement is they've got one that says, I have the capacity to go back into my addiction. That doesn't mean I'm still an addict, but a self awareness to say under pressure or under pain or if I'm in isolation, I have the capacity to go back there. And I think when people have relapses that quote unquote, come out of nowhere, it's because they've just lost sight of some of these things and allowed unhealthy behaviors to come in and been overconfident, that, oh, this time I'll be able to handle them differently. And then they find themselves back where they said they would never go.

Yeah. And I would just add to that. The biggest thing is when we get to that part where it's almost like the quote, we've arrived type mentality, it's like, oh, I don't need to do this anymore. We just stop using the tools. And then so like you said, Nick, out of nowhere, in reality, those signs have been there for a long time and you've just ignored them because you're not using the tools. If you were in a group or in community even, even if you're not in a group but you're still around guys and they know you well enough, they're going to see those signs. But a lot of times I hear it all the time when guys have been in groups, led groups, and they take a long period of time off, say, hey, I'm at A good spot. I'm going to take a break. And then they call me back a year or two after that and they're like, yeah, I've just kind of fallen apart. And so in talking with them, they just say, yeah, I just stopped using the tools because I thought I was at a place where I didn't have to focus on it all the time. And like you said, relapse can happen anytime. Whether you're brand new in this or 25 years in this, it's just, it'll creep up. And as long as you, as long as you pack your tools away, it's like you're going out there blind. Yeah. You don't have the support that you need.

Yeah. I think another thing too is that motivation changes. Like when we first start in recovery crisis is a really good motivator. Like my spouse is going to leave me or I'm destroying my family or I've lost my job or yeah, like, whatever it could be. And then once you get that traction and it is that totally that arrival mindset where it's like, whoa, I don't have the crisis anymore. Like, it's okay for me to start watching rated R movies that maybe have some risky stuff or listening to music that has, you know, sexual language in there or whatever it may be. And I think that we start to feel that shift in motivation, but don't shift with it. We don't find new ways of like, you know, the motivation. And this is what I love about Compassionate Warrior is it's lifting our eyes from just the sexual struggles that we had, but also, like, who is the person you want to become? Like, you know, what are your dreams? What are the God given visions that you have? What are things that you want to move toward, not just things you want to move away from. And I feel like that is definitely one of the biggest reasons it could happen.

Yeah. So we want to jump into Dr. Ted's five brain bugs. And as I mentioned in the introduction, Ted developed these just because he was meeting with men routinely that like, hey, I counseled with you five years ago. And then they call up and say, ted, help me, I need to come back. And he was just seeing some predictable patterns. And so we're going to talk about those here. And he called them, you know, the five brain bugs. To mean, like, there's something that gets in our head and kind of has an unhealthy effect and we've got to face it down and change the narrative. So to talk about the first one, Rich, the first Brain bug that he identified is when we're pursuing health with less passion than we pursued the addiction. What do we mean by that one?

Yeah, you know, I love this question. Literally seeing it just a few minutes ago, which is great.

We are so better prepared, rich than that. Don't let the people know we just kind of pulled this one. Okay, go ahead.

But yeah, I do love this question. And as I was thinking about it, to start on the addiction side, as most of you know, just from the podcast and hear my story, basically full blown addict by the age of 12 and then abusing my niece, but really about 16. My focus was to make as much money as I can so I can get in the topless bars and clubs. So when you talk about pursuing your addiction, I did everything I can during the week so I can have money to go blow on the weekend and, and just wreck my Life and basically 16 to 20. So for about four years I did that non stop every week. I mean, I can't recall a weekend usually or a Friday or Saturday night, sometimes even during the week that I wasn't in a club somewhere. And to me at that time, that was easy because it was like, I just got to go make money. I have no responsibilities. I'm going to go blow it on this, on these clubs and these girls and stuff like that. So to me, it was a lot easier to do that. And now when you look at coming into group and starting this process, it's a whole different type of passion. And it's not easy. Just when you start. We just got done doing something that everybody, that society says it's okay to do. And so it was easy for us. Now I'm doing something that, that is counter intuitive to what, what society says. And now I'm choosing to work on something and to have that same level of passion is really difficult at the beginning. For some guys, it could take a couple years.

Yeah.

You know, and then once you get to that point when you experience that healing, when the light kind of finally like switches on and you're like, oh, I get it, then that passion really starts to ignite in you and it's like, okay, how can I take what I did for 20, 30, 40 years and duplicate that into helping others? And eventually that happens for some guys. I mean, that's what I love about what I do. It's like I can put as much passion or more into my work because I know what the ministry has done for me through this. But you have to learn how to do it. It's really difficult.

Yeah. I mean, what I was thinking as you were saying that was like, it's like swimming upstream. Like, you know, you jump in and the water's taking you. Like, you know, and we all know this who've been in addiction. Like, there were a couple choices we made, but they were really easy choices, and they created, like, more fun, more enjoyment, not realizing all the consequences it was causing. But now we turned around, and we're swimming upstream. And it's funny, because I would say that pursuing health takes more passion than it even did when we pursued addiction. And so thinking that in eight weeks, going through a study or watching videos or, you know, doing a reading plan of the Bible, in eight weeks, I'm gonna undo 20 years of addiction. Like, if I were to put it in any other context, people would be like, you're. You're a moron. Like, there's no way that's gonna happen. And so I think that that's what Dr. Ted's talking about in this one, is that it takes just as much, if not more, probably more effort to then pursue health rather than addiction. And to assume it's gonna be easy is crazy.

Yeah. There's a way that our victory can set us up for failure. Because it does feel like for most people, I would say, in group and in counseling, we hear them say things like, I've never had this much freedom. I've never gone this long without acting out before. This is different. I changed. And that's awesome. And that victory should be celebrated. But it can make us feel like we've done the work and now we're there, and then we can find that, oh, long term. Some of those things haven't changed because it does take time. It does take a repeated, consistent effort in the same direction to create that lasting new pattern and really live in a different way long term. I remember there's a great quote about, how do people go broke? And the person says, at first, a little bit at a time, and then all at once that it's kind of this idea that we gradually, gradually keep moving towards something, and then there's kind of a tipping point that it's like, oh, I think addiction was like that. We just kept taking little steps to go deeper and deeper and deeper, and then we were lost in. And it's like, oh, my goodness, I need help. And to remember that in some ways, recovery happens the same way. It's like it just. You keep working a little, a little. A little, a little. And then there are moments it comes, like, all at Once we feel like, man, I'm at a new place of freedom. I'm at a new place of liberty. I'm good. But we need to keep in mind that little by little by little, and kind of ask the classic question, too, like, what direction are you moving in? Because you're either getting better. You know, we've all done this in sports. Coach has said, you're either getting better or you're getting worse. Every day you're getting better, you're getting worse, and it's like, so practice hard. Honestly, as a teenager, that never meant a lick. You practice hard, Coach. But, yeah, now as adults, like, I totally get that. Like, am I moving towards health? Because if I'm not moving towards health, I'm sliding back towards my addiction. And that may be what this is kind of implying. Like, if. If we're not putting energy into health without meaning to, we're putting it back into our addiction. And. And over time, it's going to catch up with us. So we've got to continue to pursue health, to pursue freedom, and do it over the course of years and decades, just like many of us did in pursuing our old behav.

Yeah. Often we've talked about, you know, the right thing is a hard thing to do. It's much easier just to live your life in sin.

Do what comes easy.

And when you choose for health, it is difficult. Like you said, like swimming upstream.

Totally. Yep.

Okay. This the second bed bug, we call them. Oh, sorry. Let me start over.

That's triggering to me right now. Thank you. By the way, we have bedbugs at our house right now. Okay. Cutting that out, by the way. Leave it in. People need to know we're real people to you. It's funny.

Okay. All right. The. The second brain bug that we're talking about is believing sexual addiction is just about our sexual struggles.

Yeah, I. So, I mean, that's one of the things that we learn pretty early on in recovery in pure desire groups, is that sexual addiction is not about sex. It's not about how sexual you are or if you're like a pervert or whatever or have this high sex drive. Sexual addiction is a behavior that we've learned to use as a medication to numb out pain and trauma. And I think that as we go in recovery. And this is what's funny, like, I think growing up, one of my bigger wounds was feeling like I wasn't heard or feeling like I wasn't. My perspective wasn't cared for. And, Nick, you kind of talked about it earlier that Once I had kids, there are literally these physical manifestations of things that don't care about your wants or your perspectives. And so it was as if this new context, revealing to me the wounds I thought I had worked on, like, I thought I'd, you know, but it's this new creature that's just poking you in the eye, you know. And so I think that that's part of it, is understanding that those pain points, those trauma, you know, traumas you have, or the wounds that you haven't necessarily, they haven't gone away, you've maybe dealt with them, but they're being maybe poked or rubbed up against as another way. Like, I've had a pastor and a counselors say that if there's an open wound there, when you rub up against it, it like, hurts. And so there are things, there's new things that rub up against it. And so I think that that is why this becomes a brain bug, is because you just assume, because I've gotten some health sexually, that therefore the things that were motivating me to pursue that behavior in the first place aren't there anymore. And they are.

Yeah. The way I hear this come up is when guys or gals are kind of counting sobriety, and that's their main focus of it's been X number of days. And I haven't acted out, I haven't looked at porn in 14 months, I haven't relapsed in a year. And that's great. But if that's their primary and only focus, and in some ways, maybe culturally, AA groups set us up for that a little bit. You know, the coins and no, I'm two years sober. It's so focused on the behavior we're maybe missing that some of the deeper stuff is still in process. So if we haven't learned healthy ways to deal with our anger, if we haven't learned how to be emotionally vulnerable with our spouse, if we haven't developed practices of healthy connection and friendship with other men or other women or with our own kids, if we haven't learned to tell our story with vulnerability, vulnerability and truth and owning our past, then we're really not that healthy. We're just free of the behavior. So I think that's where people get stuck in, well, it's been so long, I thought I was good to go. And then they come back around and realize, oh, there's more under the surface. And that's what I love about the Compassionate Warrior, honestly, is I think it's going to take you into a lot of those things in more ways even than the seven pillars of freedom did for men, that it's going to help you unpack. Am I really creating lasting health or just counting sobriety days? Because it's important to be sober, don't get me wrong there. But we want to see that it's a much bigger picture of health that we're moving towards.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I, as I was going through the compassionate warrior and kind of looking through it, I remember telling Heather, I was like, I think I was in the second or third lesson in the tools. I'm like, I go to her and I'm like, okay, this is difficult. I think I need some more counseling. And like I said, I've been doing this for years. And it's like you deal with like the sexual stuff. Right. But maybe I haven't dealt with a lot of the family of origin stuff and a lot of other pain. So you either medicate with porn, masturbation or drugs or alcohol, whatever food, whatever it is, we just, it's just another coping mechanism that we're using. And if we don't, like you said, if we're not willing to face the pain from the past, we're just going to keep, you know, acting out and then that we talk about comorbidity. We're just going to keep trading one. Oh, I can't look at porn anymore. So, well, I'm going to turn to food. Well, I can't eat more. So you just keep cycling through them.

It's like you ping pong back and forth between those old behaviors.

Yeah. And you can even find behaviors that aren't necessarily bad or negative at the outset, but they become that if you're not careful, habit forming.

Yeah.

Okay. So the third brain bug is not taking full responsibility for how we've wounded and hurt those we love. Just an easy, simple one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, again, I see this is an area where we can become overly behavior focused that we feel like, well, I did things that hurt my spouse, kids, friends, whatever, and now I'm not doing those things. Look how much better I am. And so you should be better too. And we assume that it's just the presence of the behavior that hurt them. So now in the absence of the behavior, everything's okay. And yet we're maybe missing that they're still some safety issues they need to work through or trauma that we've created or trust issues that rebuilding that. You know, when we say that recovery is a three to five year process and we say this all the time. We don't mean that stopping the behavior is three to five years, but that long term relational recovery is actually the slowest and last piece to come fully around. So you might be a full year into sobriety and no acting out, and you feel like your spouse, it's still like the first week. And you're like, well, what the heck? I'm not acting out, but you're missing. The pain that's caused is a significant relational fracture. And it may take more than you think, and it may take things that are different than you think to really heal. And so I think it's part of the humility that can come in recovery that we don't want to beat ourselves up over that. Like, man, look what I did. I'm a terrible person because it can become another reason for shame. But to take ownership of man. I remember the mantra I used to tell myself was like, I caused this in our marriage and I need to continue to help work it out no matter how long it takes. And if at two years, there's something my wife still needs for me to address, I've got to be open to that. Because I caused that pain. I created those trust issues. I remember it was something in my three circles that there was a guardrail there that because it had been a couple of years, I was like, ah, I think I'm good to go. And then I'd crossed a guardrail. Not in anything sexual, but just creating a trust issue with my wife. And she was very angry. And I was like, what the heck? I'm doing so good. And she was like, these are your guardrails. Like, you agreed to them. And when I see you break them, it hurts our trust. And it was kind of a reminder, like, oh, yeah. Even though we were two years into really successful recovery, it didn't mean her heart was just now resilient to any kind of flippant decision I made. So I think it's just that willingness to take ownership and to take that long view, to say, I will work on this, this as long as it takes. You know, and many of us say that in the first month, like, I'll do whatever it takes to earn your trust back. But if at 18 months or two years or four years, they're still not trusting us, we forget that statement. You know, maybe we need to tell ourselves again, you know what? I said I would do whatever it takes. And if we're at year three and she still needs my help or he still needs to earn my trust again, okay, I'm going to do whatever it takes.

I'm glad you said that, Nick, because I'm just thinking of. I can't even tell you how many phone calls I get with guys saying, I'm doing so good and my wife is not here yet or she's just not at that level. And I really hope that the guys that are watching this really pay attention to that because oftentimes they get so frustrated with their wives. It's like, I'm trying to calm them down. Say, listen, she may not be at the level for you for quite some time, but that doesn't mean your recovery has to stop. And then because a lot of times they get into like, like blaming them because now they're angry with them because they feel that their wives should be at this certain level, you know, and like you said, even in the first couple weeks, I'm like, sorry, man, it may take her a year or so to get there or longer. And for some, for some gals, they don't really ever get to that point where they can fully trust again. You know, it's a process. But I think the guys have to just. I tell them to just kind of pump the brakes on putting pressure on them because the more pressure you put on them, it really becomes this, like, well, look at me now. So it's like performance instead of actually taking ownership. I'm doing this because I got caught. It's like, no, you're doing this because you need to do this and go through it for yourself. And so they have this performance, hey, look at me now. And their wives don't want to see performance. They want to just see true healing take place and not a bunch of fancy words.

You know, it's interesting. So part of my story, I did bring addiction. Like, I had started recovery before I got married, and so we didn't have like a huge, you know, disclosure, discovery moment. But just even recently, like within the last year, I have gotten into cocktails, just like making them. I like the mixology piece of it. And there have been multiple times where my wife will like, and I have like a plan, right? Like, how many nights a week that I can do it and how many drinks. And so, like, you know, I have a plan. But I noticed there are some times where I didn't feel follow the plan. And even though, like, it didn't play out in my marriage, my sexual addiction, we had this big blow up. We've had multiple conversations where she's like, when I see you, like, make a plan and then you don't follow it, that makes me nervous. Like, you were an addict in this area. And even though it's not sexual, it's still, you know, addiction. And so I think that we also need to expand our view of this of, like, the carryover effect of our sexual addiction may fall in other areas. Like, it could be how often you exercise, it could be your use of alcohol, it could be food. It could be the way you treat your kids, thinking not just in that sexual area, but also your being an addict communicates a lot about habits and whether you can earn trust. And so it's just interesting that if I'm. I would just say in relationship that if you are able to, like, create habits, create goals, create guidelines for how you're doing things in life and follow those even if they're not in the sexual realm, that that still does build trust in this area.

And it's helpful to keep in mind what Harry Flanagan says in the Seven Pillars of Freedom about his story, that I am not responsible for the choices they make because of their pain, that that's where they have to take ownership. But I do still need to be responsible for the pain I've caused and the hurt and the fracture in the relationship. And so I think that's an important distinction that we're not trying to tell people that if your spouse is lying off the handle and throwing things and saying outrageous things like, well, that's all my fault. It's like, okay, the anger that I've caused is legit, but how they're using that anger, I'm not responsible for that. So we want to take ownership that it's caused pain. That pain may take longer to work through than we think, but then also have some healthy separation that I can only control what I can control. And that leads us into the fourth brain bug, Trevor. It's that the idea of trying to control our life by controlling people around me or controlling relationships with those we love. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, I think really for the addict when he's controlling his spouse, well, one, that's because if he keeps a tight grip on her, it's easier for him. And the example I can use that I hear a lot of, and this is actually one heard recently, but it happens a lot is when you have, like, if. If the betrayed spouse wants to go to her family's house, but he's always. He always has to be with her. When they go to church, they go to their family's house because they know stuff's going on and as long as he's around, then she can't say anything. And then when that happens and it's like really controlling every moment. So then that way he feels like he's got a pulse on where she's at, and then. Then he can lie his way through his recovery or what's going on. And then oftentimes out of that becomes gaslighting. Then now the spouse feels like she's the problem. So I see it a lot, and it's a typical behavior for a lot of addicts, because if I'm in control, then I can't, quote, get in trouble. I mean, that's how we think, right?

And I mean, if you look at addiction, it really is just trying to control the situation. Like, you're trying to create safety and security for yourself when you're pursuing it. And then. And once you don't have those things, it's a lot easier to work on other people than it is yourself. And so if I can manage you. Because I think one of the things, too, and I've learned this in my own story, that seeing big emotions from other people and emotions that I don't like. So, like anger or sadness or even fear, worry, anxiety, all that stuff, those are things that used to motivate me to go to unwanted behaviors. And so if I see that in my wife that she's getting fearful and anger, I'll just go in and be like, oh, you're not anxious? Don't worry. Here's this. I'll fix this, solve that problem. And it's not even necessarily something that is. I mean, I could say, well, the Bible says not to worry, so it can come from a good place, maybe. But my motivation is not about my wife and helping her. My motivation is about me, serving me. And so I think that that's what I think of when I hear this, is that I'm trying to manage the relationships around me so that I'm okay. And when that happens, I mean, that feels like danger zone a little bit.

Yeah. Well, it's just like another form of codependency of saying, I'm not okay unless you're okay. And it's a way of saying, well, I'm not really in recovery or I'm not doing good unless you're doing good and you're in recovery. And so I may need to feel like I've got to control or manipulate the situation to prove that I'm doing good and I'm in recovery. And yet that very action itself shows that there's Still a lot of unhealth. What I find is that sometimes we make other people the barometer of our recovery.

Totally.

So if my kids are well behaved and everything's good in the home, it's like, well, look how great we're doing. I'm so much better. But if my kids act out of line, I can get fearful that it reflects on me. And now I've got to try to control them because of. Not because I really care about them, but because of what I'm feeling. It reflects on me. And the same in my marriage that if it seems like we're not getting along or I'm not getting the respect I need need that it impacts maybe how people will see me in my marriage. And so anytime we realize we're in a situation where I'm more worried about someone's behavior because of how it reflects on me than I'm actually worried about pursuing their good for their sake. It's probably a byproduct of my addiction. Even in what I might perceive to be, well, I'm relatively healthy. But if I'm still trying to control other people to maintain health, it just shows that there's still some unhealth hidden underneath there and it's worth unpacking.

Yep. Yeah. And there's just so much shame tied to that. Which leads us into the. The final brain bug is the persistent message of shame.

Yeah. So I've experienced this personally where, you know, I'm eight years into recovery, and I wouldn't call myself a seasoned veteran, but, like, that's, you know, I've been in it for a while, but, man, there are days, moments, choices that I make where I'm like, I should be so much further than this. Why am I making this stupid decision? Like, you know, Instagram reels. I know that those are problem. Am I on them again? Just mindless. Like, this is a landmine and I'm just mindlessly wandering through it. I think about those things, and those are the times that shame pops up again. For me at least. More. The most prevalent is when I'm not communicating clearly to my wife or I'm blowing up at my kids, or I'm making stupid decisions and not paying attention to my guardrails. And that message of, you've been in here for eight years and you still haven't figured it out. You should be better than this. That's one for sure. That message of shame always seems to creep in. And then another one that I've had to deal with throughout my journey is like, if you were sexually healthy and you didn't have this addiction. Your wife would want to have sex with you all the time. And I don't know if you've been in marriage before or you've met, you know, regular people, but I don't. At least I'm not gonna say, okay, I'm not gonna get into that. But basically it's not that way. Like, you know what I mean? I remember a friend of mine once, I had lost a bunch of weight and he was like, oh, I bet your wife can't keep her hands off you. And I was like, oh, she can. She totally can. And it wasn't. And that's like, for me, at that moment, I remember feeling a lot of shame because it felt like a character statement toward me or like that I'm not desired or wanted. And I think that when we take, especially in the realm of our sexuality and we like project that onto our value or how much we're loved or how much we're cared for by our spirit, I think we get into really messy situations because like, you know, my wife has had some significant surgeries and stuff that are impacting her body. And I would say that's a big reason why, you know, if we're not having sex, it usually has something to do with her body and what's going on. The season of life we're in. But it's easy for me for that voice of shame to come back up. It's like, oh, it's because you're, you know, you don't look like you used to or you should be further along. And if you were further along, then she would want to have sex with you more. And so it's like those every. And this is just the way that the enemy works. Every opening it feels, feels like shame can just pop in. And if we're not aware that that's going to happen and aware of the most consistent messages we tend to get in that, then I don't think we'll take any steps forward in combating the shame.

Yeah, it's to remember that shame is a double edged sword because shame can be what keeps someone locked in their addictive pattern or acting out because they feel so bad about what they're doing and they feel worthless. And if people knew I was doing this, they'd reject me. So I'm locked in shame, which actually perpetuates me continuing to do the very things I feel shameful about. About. But on the other hand, shame can be what drives us into those behaviors as a Way to medicate what we're feeling. And it might not be shame that has anything to do with sexual sin or acting out. It may be shame, like you're saying, Trevor, because many of us are kind of perfectionists or we're performance oriented, that we find our worth and value in how well we perform, or we have expectations of what we should be like as a parent, a spouse, a worker, what, you know, whatever roles we have in this world. And if we don't live up to our own standards, then that voice of shame says, well, what's wrong with you? Why don't you have it all together? And then that little blinking red light in the back of our brain starts to go off and say, you know what makes you feel better when you feel this way? Do you know what we used to do? Because the shame messages sometimes are the same. So our brain is associated. Like, oh, when I hear this message, there's this old place that I ran to. And I think that catches some people off guard that they're like, I totally was not feeling sexual or tempted at all. And I had this day at work and this thing went on. And as I drove home, I drove by that store where I knew I used to buy magazines and like the trigger just came on like a wave. And what was going on? I, I thought I was over that. It's like, well, maybe it wasn't a sexual temptation. It was that little voice of shame saying, we know how to make this better. We know a little way to run away from it and we can get caught back up in medicating shame for all the, you know, same reasons as before. Even if maybe the entry point was different. So just to be aware of that double edged sword of shame that just because you've dealt with the sexual sh. Shame doesn't mean you've completely learned to respond appropriately to shame messages that can come from other areas.

Yeah, and I, I, as you were talking about that, I just, I mean, there's literally not a day that goes by, and I've said this before in podcasts that I don't, I don't think about what I did and then what happened to me. And then the enemy uses everything that I did and constantly reminder. He's just constantly like throwing, it's like, it's like fishing, like fly fishing. He's just constantly throwing that fly out, trying to get me to bite on it. And then I realize what's happening. I'm like, okay, I see what you're doing. And this. Then I turn to, well, like we talked about, like, you know, the, the, the relapse, you know, are coming out of nowhere. Well, when we see it, it's like, no, I see what you're doing. So the. I'm going to lean on these tools, so I'm not going to focus on that fly. I'm just going to let it go. It's very difficult.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think it comes up several places in the new workbook that I really appreciated where we do do maybe have those curses or things we've believed about ourselves that I will never be worthy of, or I have permanently disqualified myself from, or because of my past, I will never get to. And they're kind of these now and forever statements that maybe a part of us believes, well, that also is shame. And if we're finding that on a daily basis something is coming, say, well, you'll never get to have the marriage you wanted. It's like, well, I don't know. I don't know what kind of marriage I'll get to have. But I'm not going to listen to a voice of shame that condemns me forever because of my past. So it's just calling those out. And I think taking them to people that love us and can help us work through them, pray over them, speak against them, you know, invite God's truth into them, because those can be very, very deadly. And like I said, I think in the workbook, Ted and the other authors address that in a couple of places.

Yeah. Okay. So these are all good things to keep in mind, obviously, as we're going through our recovery journey. But what, I mean, just thinking through what we've talked about, what are some encouragement, encouragements that we give people when trying to address these brain bugs.

You know, I think the thing that comes to mind for me as we wrap up is really looking at what is your goal? What do you want on this journey? Because I think a lot of us start into it and really our goal is stop the pain, stop the behavior, stop hurting people, stop this crazy cycle that I'm so sick of. And that's okay to start there, but if that's the only goal we ever had and we've been clean and sober for a year or two, then we're kind of like, well, well, I'm good. I did the thing and I did the group and I'm moving on. And then we find we're back. And so this study, and even if you're a woman and can't go through the study or if you choose not to use the Workbook, that's fine. My encouragement to you is the same to say there has to be a goal in your life large enough to continue to pursue things like, I want to be the kind of dad my kids are proud of. I want to build a marriage that I'm proud of. I want to build a lifestyle of how health that I can encourage other people. I want to be a mentor to the younger generation, like something kind of big picture that continues to motivate us to say, I'm moving in a direction. And, yeah, my sexual health is a part of that, but it's just a part, because when that is, what's motivating us is this big picture vision. The Workbook talks a lot about legacy and our future and what we'll be known for and what we're leaving behind, what we're building into others that then becomes way bigger than just. Just have I avoided relapse? And ironically, because we're not just focusing on avoiding relapse, we're focusing on something bigger in the big picture. We avoid relapse. So ask yourself that question. What's my goal? What am I really trying to do in life? And if I never got beyond getting free of porn, well, it's time to do some hard work and really evaluate what am I after now.

Yeah, I just think it's like, for me, it's like I look at my kids and the relationship I have with my kids, it's pretty. Pretty great and continuing to grow because there was a long time where I didn't have access to them when I was younger, you know, when I was still on probation and stuff like that.

I was in your car on Friday last week, and your daughter called you like, 14 times while we were in the car.

Yes.

And it was like, seriously? And she had, like, this problem she was going through, and she's calling you, and it was like, so that was cool. So I got to see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the relationship. And I wouldn't have been that dad if I didn't choose recovery.

Yeah.

And it's really cool to see my kids respond. They both read my book. I talk to them every day, sometimes 14 days. 14, 14 times in an hour drive.

We were in the middle of, like, a great conversation about leadership and all this stuff. It's like, oh, there's Courtney again. She's gone again.

But I think I wouldn't be the type of dad and husband I am if I didn't choose recruitment, recovery. And I think the second piece of that is. Is it. This isn't for every guy, but you go through, you experience health, and then you get to a point where like, hey, I'm. I am good. And then you may never be in group again, but you still use the tools. You're still in rewalk and recovery. But for a lot of guy. For me, I'll be leading groups forever because I, I want, I hope that I can pass on just stuff that I've learned and walk through so the next guys can experience the healing that I have. I mean, that's all part of it. It's like, I think it's selfish, in my opinion. It's like if I go through recovery and just keep recovery to myself and not pass it on to these guys that really need help. And, I mean, that's why we show up to work all the time. So your family relationship with your family, and then you talked about others outside. There's nothing better than being in a group and seeing guys experience recovery, and it just changes their lives and they're just like, eternally grateful for the ministry. It's just, it's awesome to see.

I went back, I'm going back to the illustration earlier of like, swimming upstream. If you have someone who's a stronger swimmer than you and is helping you go, the journey can be a whole lot easier for you. It's still going to take a lot of work. Like, they can't swim for you, but they're telling you where to go and what the right way to do it is. And so, yeah, I think that that's awesome. The other thing I was thinking about was just being proactive and hyper aware. And the passage first Peter 5, 8. Stay alert. Watch out for your great enemy, the dev. He prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. And like, the devil is incredibly intelligent and knows that these are like landmines and ways we can get tripped up. And, you know, sometimes it starts with shame, sometimes it starts with control. You know, there's all these different ways that our enemy can work against it. And so I think always being aware, like, watch out. Like, stay alert. Don't just coast, because you can't coast your way to health. Like, you can coast your way back into addictive behaviors and unhealth, but you can't coast your way into health. And so I think that that in a lot of ways starts with our posture. When we start the day, are we just like, well, we'll just kind of go through the day, or is it like, no, I know that I've got an enemy that's working against me and so how do I work against him?

Yeah, you can only coast so far until you stop.

That is true. That is true. So guys, this has been a great conversation and I'll just say for any man who has been through seven pills pillars of freedom to go check out compassionate warrior puredesire.org compassionatewarrior we'll have that in the show notes. But we also know that for any women that listen to this episode, this is not just a man's thing. Like these are bugs that get into the system and keep us from pursuing for their health. So again, we did pull this one together pretty quick, but I think the episode went pretty well. So Rich, thanks for being flexible and for joining us man. Appreciate it. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal, Trauma view or someone you know needs recovery and healing. Go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. And make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well to see Rich's shirt. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.