326 - Telling Your Story Effectively

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Good morning, or whatever time it is for you. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. You're listening to episode 326 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Surely you can't be serious. I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

I. I saw our producer Justin over there mouthing it as you were saying it. I've heard it before, but I could not tell you what it's from.

It is from a classic 1980s comedy called Airplane.

And you knew that we're the same age and you know that that's good. That shows how cultured you are now. Sheltered. And how much I hate my parents. I'm kidding. I have seen some of that movie. It's like off the wall.

It's crazy.

Yeah, right.

For sure. Double entendre. Lots of that kind of humor. I don't think I've ever seen the whole thing either. I've just seen bits and pieces. And that line.

Leslie Nielsen is that way in almost everything that he's in too. Right. The Naked Gun. I'd seen that one. That was a pretty good one. Okay, so interesting to see where we're going here with this, but we had John Beguman, our donor development manager, and he was on. And we walked through a framework on really telling your story effectively.

Yeah, well, as you know, Trevor, I suspect that one of my spiritual gifts, a hidden spiritual gift, maybe it's not hidden anymore. Ability to connect nearly any illustration to any topic. And this being from the movie Airplane, you know, airplanes are the place where Christians stereotypically tell stories about like, and I sat on this airplane and I led this person to Christ and I told my story. And I think that's wonderful. And as you'll hear in the episode, that is just not me. Like, I get on an airplane and it's usually earbuds in Leave me alone, because I've been already doing work. Or it's super early in the morning and I'm headed to an event and I'm. I'm getting work done. I'm focused. It's just not. And maybe God has to do a work in my heart. I'm open to that, but it's not my space. But for a lot of speakers, that's like the typical place you tell your story is to the captive audience in the seat next to you on an airplane. And that's a lot of what we talk about today. Is just like, when do we tell our story and how do we tell it in a way that is compelling, that's appropriate, that's grace filled and compassionate. And it doesn't have to be on an airplane. It might be in our group or our small group or with a friend at church or someone that's invited us out to lunch. Just looking for those opportunities to use God's done in our life to potentially encourage or cast that same vision to someone else. And if, if it is on an airplane, as John brings up, great. But please, please don't confine yourself to that.

That's right. And John and Rodney, who are both in our advancement department, are the guys that go up and meet the pilots and then end up getting.

And you hear them telling their story from four rows away. It's like, oh, oh, Lord, I just heard pornography.

Louder, please.

The chair.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, this is a really good. I mean, it's not just something where you have to be an extrovert to tell your story. And that's clear through the, through the episode. It is definitely a good one. Before we get to it, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Also, follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And with that, let's get to our conversation with John Beguman on telling your story effectively. All right, Johnny B. Welcome back to the podcast, man. Glad to have you.

Yeah, honored to be here.

One thing that we constantly emphasize at Pure Desire, we talk about it all the time, is the power of story. And I mean, I say story and it's like a trigger word of happiness for you. We know how powerful and effective sharing our story can be in our own development of our story, but then also helping others find hope, freedom, and healing. So with our time today, we're gonna explore a framework that really you use. And you are on a lot of calls with donors. You're sharing your story a lot. I would almost say it's one of your spiritual gifts is sharing your story. And I share a wall with him, so I hear that gift being in a good way. But we want to look at that framework that you use. So, yeah, exploring this framework, we want to do it in a way, too, that would take, you know, maybe hours or weeks, not years. You and I even this morning were talking that, you know, someone might have 70 years to span to tell that story. And you can't sit down and tell someone 70 years in an hour. And so the whole idea today is trying to look at how we relatively Quickly but effectively tell our story to other people. And as I already mentioned with you in your role, you tell your story to a lot of people and you hear a lot of people's stories. What is it about our personal story that's so powerful and encouraging to other people?

This is by far one of my favorite parts of my roles. You have already mentioned that, as we both know. Would you repeat that again?

I'm not sure we got it.

This is my favorite part of my.

Job, and it's good that it is, because otherwise he would hate his job 100%.

I say for the longest time on the top of my whiteboard, if you had come into my room, you would have saw the words that said your story matters at the very top. Which the question that then begs to be asked is, why? Why does your story matter? And I would say it's simply because it's God's story. It's the story of redemption that he's writing in our lives. And he loves to write stories of redemption. He loves to use the weak things to shame the strong. I love that verse in First Corinthians. And then he goes on to say that it's our weakness. That quite literally is his power made perfect. In fact, his power rests on us in our weakness. And so regarding why is story powerful? Because our weakness, quite literally in this paradoxical way, is thing that is God's strength in our life. And so for me, I think it allows others to relate. It allows others to empathize with us because we're all weak, we're all broken. We're all messed up in this fallen world. And Dan Allender actually says, to be like Jesus means that we must enter the complexity of both dignity and depravity because we are made in the image of God. Yes, glorious, and yet we are also have taken on Adam and Eve's hiding, which leads to ruin. And so we are glorious ruins and we are bent glory, all in the same context, which is kind of wild to me. But it was actually with working with David Robbins at Family Life, he would often say that if the goal of the Christian life is dependence, then that means that weakness is our greatest advantage. And so for me, I think when I get to connect with donors, there's something so profound about saying, here's the worst part of my story that maybe I would have never told to anybody. But that integration of sexual brokenness makes us human. And this is where the power of God rests on us. And then the encouragement piece is just simply, I'm willing To go along with you. I'll come along beside you and I'll let you know my brokenness. I would love to hear yours. I'd love to listen and then just simply dream of God. What do you want to do? What if our greatest calling could be in our greatest area of pain? And I love to allow people, myself included, to begin to dream the dreams of God in their greatest points of pain. And all of a sudden, an hour later, I'm like, wait, what do you. Where do you live? Like, all we've talked about is your brokenness. And yet it's just so profound. There is something so beautiful and connecting through story.

Yeah. When I was a pastor and we taught, like, evangelism seminars, we would emphasize the power of story because it's something you really can't argue with. You know, if someone starts spouting out stats, it's like, well, where'd you get those stats? Or I'm sure that's, you know, those have been skewed because of this or that or even science anymore. You know, obviously we've seen in our culture, people argue with science, and was it legit or was it. Did it have an agenda behind it? But when you just shared, this is what happened in my life. This is what I experienced, no one's gonna go, well, that's not true. That's not what you experienced. If we have any level of credibility with a person, they feel like, wow, that's really incredible that happened to you. And I think in a very society that's become just incredibly relativist, like, whatever you believe is your belief. Our belief about our story actually really speaks to someone. And I think there's something intuitive about another person's story. We're naturally. Because God wired us for relations, we're naturally looking for connection in someone's story. So if you use stats or science or even scripture to be like, well, this is wrong, and here's why you should change, it's like, okay, great. But if you tell your story, I think the other person's brain is looking for those points to go, oh, I know what you've been through. I've experienced some of that. And so I think it's just really powerful to create connection in a time where some of those truths that we've all camped on, especially in our faith, for a long, long time, don't always mean as much to another person. So whether we're sharing our story with someone that has a similar one and creating connection or trying to share our story with family or friends, or people, that this is kind of a new step of vulnerability for us, that that story is powerful and will create, I think, more engagement and curiosity than if we just tell people the stats and the latest, you know, story we heard in the media about, you know, someone using porn or sex trafficking or whatever, you know, there's a lot of sensational stuff happening. We can talk about that, but it won't necessarily create the curiosity for people to want to engage and go deeper with us.

I've heard it said too, that our brains are created to process information through a story framework. And I think that it's really easy to see that a large portion of scripture is narrative story, and that's how God chooses to communicate through his written word. But then also it's what Jesus used most, at least in his primary teachings we see are parables. And so, yeah, it's not the personal story of Jesus, but it is telling through the lens of story. And I think that, and I've actually heard an author say this, that if you tell a story or a narrative, what people might reject this, maybe more to what you were saying, what people might reject if you were just to present it as a principle up front. If you tell your story, it sneaks in past their defenses and then is able to expand and they're able to maybe palate that a little bit better and a little cleaner. So there's a lot even to the neuroscience of story that just. It's amazing.

Yeah, well, it lights up both part of our brains because it's word and it's, you know, creativity. And so our right and left brain are listening versus you just go into stats and data. You get their left brain, but you.

Gotta engage in the classroom again, like, I'm starting to like, yeah, wind down here. Yeah.

So, John, I know that as you share your story or as you coach other people to share stories, like at our annual fundraising dinner, that you're often following a three, kind of a three phase or a three category approach. So let's talk about that a little bit. The first phase of that is to explore what life was like before you encountered healing through Jesus and resources like pure desire. So why, what kind of questions help guide telling that part of our story? What do we need to know about telling the before side of our story?

Totally. Yeah. There's a handful of questions that I might ask somebody, but I think some of my top, maybe my top three, the first one just being what was your family of origin like specifically in the lens of sexuality? Did you grow up in A family that talked openly about sexuality. And if you did, can I meet you? Because there's not a whole lot of us. That wasn't my family of origin context. And so I think the implicit messages, whether that was communicated non verbally, verbally wasn't stated. What was stated from the church and our family of origin really sets the stage for what's about to happen. My second question that I love to ask is simply, when were you exposed to porn? Or when did sexual brokenness enter your story? Because it's not always exposure to porn, whether that's abuse or harassment or molestation. There's a lot of different ways in which sexual brokenness can enter the narrative. But something even in the real world, if I can take it there for a second, something that I've found asking somebody, when were you exposed to porn? Really kind of beats them to the punch and I think lessens the shame because I'm assuming already that you've probably been exposed. And even just owning, like, I was exposed to porn at this age, that then set a trajectory of. And so I've actually found that question to be really helpful even outside of the walls of pure desire or story work. And then my third question that I love to ask is simply, how. When did the truth about sexual brokenness come out? And so for some of them, it was in an interview. That's my story regarding, hey, I love to work as a campus missionary for crew. And they're like, hey, hey, hey, hold on, you know, what about this? Because you're talking a lot about sexual brokenness and addiction to porn, but we don't know if you're fully healed. But for a lot of people, it's in marriage, it's the spouse who found what I was looking at, whether that's browser history. It was a spouse that found an email. It was so many different ways. And so I think that moment is really what leads you into the second portion. But that moment seems to be kind of the fulcrum. So, yeah, family of origin, that's number one. Number two is when was exposure sexual brokenness introduced? And then when was it revealed? When did it come out?

Yeah, you and I have spent a lot of time talking about. We use a specific framework called the story brand framework. And what you do is you have a character, and the first thing that you talk about in any story is the problem. And so you're identifying the problem, because every good story has a problem. And this is, I'm gonna try not nerd out too much. But like, I'm very much into movies and storytelling and screenwriting and all that, that if you just have a character who there's no problems, the entire story, it's not a story. And no one's gonna watch that movie, no one's gonna read that book. It's just like, give me something, you know? And so it's that idea of challenge or struggle that what it does is it creates that new arc of is this person really going to address this? Is this person really going to become who we think they can be or who they want to be? And so I think that this aspect of this three part kind of framework is really just establishing like, my life wasn't perfect. Here is where the problem was. And to your point, it's just pointing a finger to. And now let's talk about what the solution is to that problem.

Well, in pure desire, we use the phrase a lot. A cohesive narrative telling a cohesive narrative. And so it's really looking at, in those before parts of our story, what are the pieces that connect the dots to everything else. I think sometimes when I hear people tell their story, they feel this need to give us everything. Like, well, I was born in such and such place. And you're like, whoa, okay, you look.

At the jerk, by the way, I was born a poor black child. Something like that.

I guess if someone started that way. But no, you just, you feel like they're trying to give you the whole picture. It's like, okay, if you write your own book someday, give us all that. But if you're telling your story, you maybe have 10 minutes on an airplane, or you've got five minutes in front of your church, or maybe you're with a friend and you've got half an hour. But in general, you don't get to tell everything. So really look at what was the problem that connects to the solution and the story and emphasize kind of telling more about those parts. And I would say without being careful not to glorify the past, because I think that's a huge kind of dilemma. I see in Christianity a lot that it's a little bit of the car accident effect. Like, this is ugly and I don't want to look, but I can't look away. And people will spend 80% of their time talking about their sin and all the stuff they did. And that might be intriguing, but it's kind of like that's really not the point. And if we spend 80% of our time there, we've actually missed the point of stories. Like you were saying, John yes, we want to create connection points. We want to be honest and truthful without being graphic or gory. But we want to make sure we're not glorifying sin. We're just, we're. We're setting the stage for the real parts of the story. So I try to tell people, like, try to set the stage quickly because at the end of the day, I don't need to know the breadth and depth and intricacies of your struggle. What I would like to know a whole lot about is how did you encounter change? What did it look like? And that's what we're about to talk about.

Well, and that balance too, between. Because I've heard people tell stories where it's like, well, I was struggling and it was hard, but God met me. And it's like, well, what were you struggling with?

It's so vague.

Help me, please. Yeah. Was it alcohol? Was it gambling? Was it, you know, whatever it may be. And so I think that being honest, but to your point, not like embellishing too much onto that. So finding that balance, I think is important in this first part.

Well, what I think is so cool about the first portion this before is it really, I think invites the curiosity and compassion to hold, hey, where did you come from? And how did that inform your story? And if we can begin to understand what informed it, we can also begin to start dreaming how to go back to rewrite, to shift the lies or the set beliefs that weren't of God and say, no, no, no, no, that wasn't true. And we get to go backwards to go forwards. That to me is so beautiful.

Well, and for all of us that have been through a pure desire group, we've understood the way that past pain trauma experiences created the avenue for struggle. And I think if we can tell that part of our story that's actually very intriguing for people outside of a group because it's like, wow, I never even, I thought it was just eye opening. Porn is porn. But like, when I tell my story, I'll emphasize growing up in a home with three siblings that were all close in age and feeling that need to like, get attention out is where a lot of my performance needs came from. And finding that if I didn't perform well and I felt bad about myself in lust, fantasy and eventually pornography, I always felt good. I always, you know, was the perfect performer, so to speak. And linking that in my story, I think makes people kind of start to connect dots and go, oh, so it's not, you know, it's not just A guy thing. It's not just something that. Because we're, you know, we got all these hormones, like there's actually connection points. Then I think you've got them stirred up thinking, well, what might my story be? How does my story connect? And that's, I think, pretty cool. And you see light bulbs go on even as you tell your story.

So good.

And that leads into the second part and again to that idea you're creating, that curiosity. And so the second category is sharing how Jesus message of hope, freedom and healing transformed you. So what are some ways that you've seen work or that you would suggest people share this part of their story?

Totally. And I'd just maybe couch it with the word compassion. I was on a phone call with a donor, and I kid you not, it was an hour and a half. At one point, I just considered putting myself on mute. I'm like, you don't need me to have this conversation. But an hour and a half later, he shared three words that have radically changed the way I think about this journey of becoming like Jesus in the way of our sexuality. And the three words were curiosity, compassion, and courage. And I think those three words actually overlay really, really well of can you be curious about the before? Can you be compassionate for the during as you're working this out? And then can you be courageous to go and partner with what Jesus calling you to do? But regarding compassion, this ability to co suffer, whether that's with yourself or with others, my first question might catch maybe our audience off guard a little bit. It's simply, how did you hear about pure desire? Because it's not everybody in their dog that's walking around, you know, talking about the seven pillars and betrayal and beyond, or like it was on the bulletin. Now there are churches and places like that, but for a lot of people, it was. I heard from a friend, it was, we were in crisis. I know we've used the analogy of our building before, and the front door quite literally is crisis. The amount of people who are calling in the moment of pain. And they've Google searched. I need Christian help regarding sexual addiction. And so then they land on our doorstep and I think inviting people to go back to think, oh yeah, like it was actually in pain or crisis. Again, that moment of discovery that I then began the journey. Where did you begin? Is really important. And what was that first step? Because if you can understand your first step, you can then give that potentially away to others. So that's number one. Number two is just. Were there specific mile markers on your journey. I'd love to share a story. So I jumped into counseling in 2020 and shout out to Jason Carsons. He's one of our Peer Desire clinicians. He's incredible. And I'm sitting in an office called the Hope center in Plano, Texas, while working for Josh Bedell Ministry, which is underneath cru. And he looks at me and says, do you believe objective truth? And I'm like, jason, I work for Josh McDowell. He's literally an apologist. He staked his whole life on objective truth, that the Bible and the word of God is his words. And I said, I think if I, like, say no, he, like, materializes out of the wall and slaps me like, you know, Josh McDowell. Yeah. I don't know what's gonna happen if I say no. And so, of course, I say yes. And then Jason Carsons, in a moment that I'll never forget, looked me in the eyes and says, no, you don't. He said, no, you don't. Not in the moment of temptation, you don't. He said, because in the moment of temptation, you bow to your feelings and you worship them as if they were God. And I had this kind of almost out of body experience, like Dr. Strange, you know, when he gets knocked out of his metaphysical body, he's like. He's like floating behind him. And I'm like, who is this guy? He's a hypocrite. And then, you know, reality crashes and boom, that's me. And that's a moment in my story that I'll never forget, when I saw the duplicity so clearly of I'm saying one thing, but I'm doing another, and my actions are indicating what I really believe, because we act upon what we believe. So, again, the second question is, are there mile markers in your story? Moments that you look back and say, something changed, something happened. And then the third question in this category that I think is really important is, what did that feel like? What was your experience again? How specific can you be? I think specificity, however you say that.

Word, authenticity, it's hard.

That's a hard word.

It's.

Yeah.

And authenticity are really important in the journey because if we're broad and generic and say, I fell, I tripped, I stumbled. What does that even mean?

Now I'm doing better.

Yeah, let's name it. And again, not to glorify it.

Yeah.

But that others might say, hey, me too. That's a powerful moment. Yeah.

I love what you're saying about those mile markers or those kind of trademark moments or I call them a lot like the aha moments it's asking of ourselves. The question, like, where did I start to turn the corner? Like, where did I start to change? Because I think for so many of us, we have experienced the roller coaster or the, you know, the wheel of just round and round, the same thing. Binge purge, repeat, binge purge, repeat. And that's, I think, common for people that have struggles, whether it's again, porn or gambling or food or workaholism, like, like, we do better for a while, things get rough, we're back where we started, we try harder. And so to have someone express like, this is where I began to break free. This is where God revealed something to me that I hadn't seen before or in a way I hadn't understood, and things really began to change. What I think we might underscore is how significant that is to people that might still be stuck in some kind of roller coaster or binge purge cycle. Because when you're in it, there is a part of you that really believes, this is the time. Like, this is the time I'm going to try hard enough, the stars are aligned, I'll be free. But if they're honest with themselves, they're like, well, but I haven't really changed yet. What's going to make a difference? And then they hear your story and it's like, oh, that's different. I've not heard that before. I don't really think I've heard someone going down that road. And so when you can share those pieces, even if it's not necessarily going to be what they experience, I think it does create a vision of, of hope, of a future that can be different. And it's not just that someone tried hard enough that, gosh darn it, they finally made it. I'm proud of them. It's like, no, you encountered God in a new way. You experienced his love and grace and strength and were able to apply it in your life in ways that actually are creating some effective growth and change, that's what needs to be glorified. That's what needs to be brought out. Because it's not common. And when it does happen, I would hope that any one of us would hear something like that and realize, well, that's a reason to celebrate. Like, man, look what God did in this life. Look what God did in my life. And then having a person believe, and that's what he can do in my life too.

Yeah.

And I think with this too specifically, if you're talking to people who are Christians, which, you know, a lot of us grow up in a context, a culture where it's information equals transformation. If you just read your Bible, you'll become more like Jesus. And I think it's important in this aspect to share not just truths that you know are legit, but also experiences that reinforced it. I mean, for me, I remember the first time I shared my full disclosure, shared that one thing I was never gonna share that same sex experience I had when I was, you know, a young guy. And I remember the experience I had when two guys turned to me and said, me too. And I remember the shame, like, dripping off of me, completely falling off of me. And that, you know, to Nick, what you said at the top of the episode, like, no one can argue that experience with me. No one can argue what I felt or what I experienced in that moment. But also that reinforces both sides of our brain that it's not just, I know this is true, it's I know this is true, and I experience something on a horizontal level in relationship with God's people that reinforce that reality. So I think that's an important piece in this, is making sure that sharing experiences, things that actually happened to us, in us, around us, is shared.

Praise God for that moment.

Yeah.

So we talked about the before and being able to articulate that, explaining the experience we're having or the during, the turning point, the mile markers. Now let's talk about the after. So in the final category of describing what life is like after experiencing healing from brokenness or betrayal, trauma, what are some of the guidelines for fleshing out this part of our story?

This is by far my favorite part, because our stories of vulnerability, at the beginning of naming it specifically, really do dispel shame and begin to cast this vision of hope. Hope that something could really change. This is the moment where that gets so cemented. And now I have this set hope. And so as I began in my role, getting to call donors, I remember a mentor had said, john, just ask him, what's the story? What's the story now? He was thinking, behind the gift. But as I began to ask that question, of course, the answers weren't necessarily about generosity. The answ were about what God had done. I was here. This is what happened. And this is where I'm at now. And I had a mentor say, john, you must ask every single donor, who were you before and who were you after? Because movements. And again, I think pure desire is much more of a movement of healing, not just a ministry and a building, but A movement that is not just the US but the nations. Movements change things. And Jesus, the person of Jesus walks into room and calls people by their name, and things begin to change. And so the question of who were you before and who are you after? I literally just recently had somebody on a zoom call say, john, my world was black and white before, and now everything is in vivid color. Like, I didn't know what living really was. I didn't know what to. I didn't know how to feel. I didn't know how to name emotions. And now I know what I'm feeling, and I know how to name emotions. I'm having hard and honest conversations with my wife. And we're not perfect because it's not a destination, but we are in the direction of change. And I'm going to. Can we just get that story on blast? That's incredible. And I think we probably, if we're being honest, had similar experiences. I remember reading Unwanted in My Recovery Journey by Jay Stringer, and he's talking about sensuality. And of course, that had been kind of like a bad word, you know, growing up in my Christian context. And it was here where I'm going, man, like, I can light a candle and enjoy the smell like that. Before I was like, ah, that's. That's kind of weird. But in the process, and afterwards, I'm going, no, no. Like, God's given me senses. And. And as a single who's pursuing celibacy and not necessarily this ton of sexuality in my life in that regards, like, there are other ways in which I can engage the senses that God has given me by enjoying a walk, feeling the rain, seeing the trees, smelling the world that God has created. And so that's question number one. Who are you before and who are you now becoming? And then number two is just simply, what are you passionate about and what has God called you to? Because the reality is we enter into rooms with strengths and weaknesses. And again, I would just dare anybody to believe that our weaknesses are really where God wants to do his best work. And so it's often in these places of pain, whether that's identifying them in pillar three, lesson one, your top 10 pain moments, or just throughout the process and saying, God, what if you could do something with this? God, could you redeem this? And if you could redeem this. And I would tell that story the rest of my life. In the same way that the woman at the well finds out that Jesus knows she has all these other husbands. Like, oh, my gosh, what should have been A moment of shame becomes a moment of being known and seen and loved. And what does she do? She goes back. And the lady who has all this pain now becomes the storyteller.

Did you hear?

I met the man who knew everything. And she starts telling everybody. This passion is birthed out of knowing and meeting the person of Jesus in her great pain. So, yeah, what are you passionate about? And what has God called you to?

I just want to be clear, when John says he's pursuing celibacy, that he doesn't mean lifelong. So gals that are out there, you know, don't. Don't hold back, please. Temporary condition.

Justin, put his number in the show.

I'll help you out with that, John, please.

That is good. Okay, so I think in just a couple things to add to that, I feel like one of the things we can do is almost, like, breeze through this part where it's like. We're almost minimizing it, where it's like, and God saved me, and it's great, and my life's awesome. It's like, you gotta be specific on what the problem was. You gotta be specific about what helped you. And then you gotta be specific about what it looks like now. But I feel like even more important than that. And, man, this is something me and my wife really try to do, the community we're around tries to do, but it's difficult at times because we live in a world that glorifies being shiny and looking good and having everything seem presentable, but to not tie everything in a bow, it's like, oh, my marriage is just. We're crushing it now, and financially we're great. And parenting easy. No to any of those things. You know, to still say that even though God has healed me in this area and I have hope, I have freedom, I have healing in this area. That doesn't mean that there aren't other parts of brokenness in my life.

I've got to say this. As we were going through the PSAP training, Marnie Faree. And if you guys haven't heard of her, please look her up. She's incredible. I know you guys are very familiar with her, and she has an incredible story of addiction, of betrayal, and everything in between. And during the training, she shared her story for an hour and a half, and now this was a good hour and a half. I was very attuned and very aware of what was going on. And she got to the end, and we were just blown away. The 50 people on the zoom call. And, you know, we're all Muted, but we're clapping and we're raising our hands. We're all celebrating what God has done. And after the applause, it kind of died. She unmuted and she said something I'll never forget again. Another mile marker. In my story, she said, I have been healed in so many ways, and I am healing. And that is our story. I need you to know what God has done. And I also need you to know that I'm still trusting him to do so much more. And I don't think it's because we're so broken. I think it's because he's so good that he can't stop coming after our brokenness. And yes, we are broken. But, yes, he is so good, and he wants to write stories of redemption in our lives. And so, yes, I've been healed, and yes, I am still in the process of healing.

Yeah, we've all been a little poisoned by American storytelling and the classic. And they all lived happily ever after, right? Because if you see a movie, typically it's crisis resolution credits. And there's always this part of me, it's like, I'd like to see crisis resolution. And then what happens? What does life look like? Because that is the reality of our journey, that we are still human. We are still living in a fallen world. And being a human being is complex. It can be messy, it can be challenging. And so I think to process with people how my story of change is being lived out, even imperfectly, can encourage them, like, oh, I could get there, too, because we talk about this a lot, that it's not that arrival mindset. It's the mentality of, you're on a journey, we're growing, we're in process. So maintaining that posture of humility, of vulnerability, of growth, of change. And what I don't think we realize is that that is a lot more endearing to people than we know. There's a part of us that maybe feels like, well, I had the bad story, I got over it. Now I'm all better. And in some ways, that's just reverting back to our performance way of thinking. Or that I find my value in being good enough, that if I now everything's bright and shiny, I'm all better. It's like, no, actually, when I can say, you know, I still really can wrestle from time to time with finding my value in how well I perform or my paycheck or my job title or if I'm a good parent. So when my kids act up, I start to shame myself. And then I think people can kind of take a deep breath and go, like, oh, okay, this is real. But the change is still real. Like, I'm still pursuing the change in a good way amidst a life that can be very difficult in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I think talking about those two things, John, like, what does life look like now? And so much that vision piece of, like, what am I passionate about? What do I think God's called me to? What? But, you know, in group a lot, we talk about the legacy that we want to leave behind and how important that is, because it does become kind of that new, you know, North Star, that standard. This is where I'm headed. This is where my journey is taking me. And, yeah, along the way, there's speed bumps and roadblocks and difficulties, but I now know where I'm headed. Where maybe before, all I knew was how to take care of myself. Now it's like I've got a bigger vision of my life, and I'm captured by it. And I think that kind of propels someone along with us, too. Like, yeah, me, I wanted. I want something like that, too. And theirs might be different than ours, but that sense of I was made for a purpose, I think is on all of our hearts. So sharing that is just so, so important.

Yeah. I was just thinking, Nick, as you were saying that I had a friend recently tell me I'd still look at porn if I could. Like, he was just honest. He was like, I still. Like, that's tempting. I still want to do it. Still being able to be raw and not a sense of glorifying it by any means, but still just saying it sounds like.

Acknowledging like, there's a ton of dopamine there. Dopamine feels good.

And I don't feel good right now, so. Okay, so. And I love this question, John, mostly because you and I have had this conversation so many times, and the question is, like, what if we feel like we've already told our story or maybe even like, we've told it a lot and we're starting to feel kind of that hangover. Can we tell our story too much or too often?

Yeah. My first thought is no. And I want to give a caveat to that. I would just say, how can we not share the story that God is writing now? I think there are ways in which we can share it. That would be inappropriate. Oversharing. That might be too much. I mean, just to let you guys into a little bit of my own journey. A part of that was I used to tell people they'd say, like, wait, you're living in Oregon. Like, how did you get here? And I would say, it's a long story. One word, God. And I would totally bait and switch them. I didn't really know I was doing it, but I was of tell me your story. And then it's just like, I was addicted to porn and Jesus saved me, and now I'm doing this. And I just wanted so desperately to be known and seen a good desire, but it was coming out in a bad way. And now it's, oh, I work for a nonprofit. And giving them the dignity of choice to say, what's the nonprofit? And then I say, pure desire. And they say, again, giving them the dignity of choice. What does pure desire do? And then talking about how we help people break free from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal, trauma. And they're like, whoa, that's deep. And I'm like, yeah, it is. And it's a piece of my story. And I might simply say I struggled with porn addiction in high school, and I found a lot of healing through Jesus and through relationship with others. And pure desire was a big part of that story. And so I think. I just know. I don't think you can share your story too much, because I really hope it's God's glory in and through your life. And I hope his name is praised every single time you say it, and that people truly see the power at hand. That he is a God who takes ashes and makes beauty, that he takes dry bones and makes armies, that he takes attics and makes those who've healed and recovered are in that process and can do the same for others. And so I don't think there is, but there can be some unhealthy ways that we might lean towards oversharing or simply being like, don't ask that guy, or, don't talk to that guy. So let's do it in appropriate ways.

Well, in the book of Revelation, it says they overcame them by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. And so if the word of our testimony and what Christ is done in our life is that powerful, it would make total sense that the enemy of our souls wants to quash that, wants to take away the desire to share that, to give us kind of a been there, done that feeling about it. And, you know, I know that I can feel that way sometimes. I've shared my story in a lot of ways and places, and it's like, well, I'm sure everybody's heard my story, and it's Kind of old news to me and I'm tired of sharing it. I mean, because honestly, you can get that way, like when you speak, like, this is what I always talk about. But. But I know there are ways and places that God has reminded me. Like for a lot of people in the room, wherever I'm at, most of them haven't heard my story. Even those that have don't remember it near to the degree that I think they do. And there's always kind of an aspect or a dynamic that I think is different when I tell it. So it's trying to be aware of, like, what's my environment? Who am I telling it to? Is it one on one? Is it in a large group? And what about this environment might be more conducive to, you know, focusing more on family of origin or focusing more on the, you know, kind of how sports played into my story, or focusing more on, you know, my dynamics with the church and being in leadership. Like, wherever you're at, I think you learn the more you tell your story, the more you kind of learn. You can, you can morph it a little bit. Still telling all a true story, but highlighting other parts more than others because you just have a sense this is what's going to connect with this audience. And something too. I felt like God told me early on about, you know, this part of my life sharing your story is that he said, if you'll be faithful to tell your story, I will be faithful to use it. And I think there's a sense that's true for all of us that our job is to tell the story. And if the whole room doesn't, you know, stand up and applaud or fall on their knees in repentance, like we're not there to manage the response, that's God's work, that's the spirit in people's hearts. But if we can be faithful, whether the environment is small, one on one, or we get to stand on a stage where like, Lord, I'm going to authentically and vulnerably share my story and I pray that you would impact hearts and lives and then that, that can take off us, that can take off of us some of the pressure to feel like, well, I don't know if my story's powerful enough, I don't think I'll share it. It's like, well, that's not really your job. Just share your story. So I think when the door is there, walk through it in appropriate ways, in appropriate timeframe. You know, if, if you're One on one with someone on an airplane. Maybe don't give them the two hour version if they didn't really ask for that. Maybe start with the 2 minute version and let them ask questions.

You're referencing airplanes? Because I share my story.

John is very good at that. I am not. I would be much more likely to do it in other environments. Totally. But that's what I'm just saying, kind of read the room is a phrase we've used. And if you have the opportunity to share longer and deeper, it's with a friend, it's someone that has asked, man, help me understand how this is even possible. Could I tell you my story versus, you know, meeting a stranger at Starbucks and you got a minute. So that's, I think, the beauty too of what we've talked about, the before, during and after. If you've got a clear idea of the main idea of those three sections, I think you can tell your story in a minute or an hour because you've got your anchors and you could just share your anchors in a minute and bam, bam, bam. This is what God did. Or you can tell all the backstory. So it's, I think, really useful to have that in mind.

Yeah. Nick, you made me think of something. This last weekend I was at the Global Leadership Summit and Dallas Jenkins, who's the director of the TV show the Chosen, used the analogy that it's not our job to feed the 5,000, it's our job to bring the loaves and fishes. I thought that was just an amazing, amazing illustration and obviously visual from Scripture. I think for me, and this is something, and I alluded to it at the beginning of the question and I think I'm having even a little bit of self discovery right now. Like on this podcast, I share so much of my life and like when people listen to stuff, I'm not telling stories from what happened like years ago. I'm. Most of the time I'm telling you stuff that's happened in the last week of my life. And so I feel like I have this vulnerability hangover sometimes where I walk out and someone wants to know information. I'm like, but I'm just so tired right now. I just don't want to share.

This should be episode 219.

There is a reality to that where it's like, oh, just go listen to this, you know, or just go listen to that. But I think that there is that element too of trusting that in that moment the Lord might want to use, you know, even when you're really tired and you're tired of telling the same story again, use it in a new and fresh way. And I got to do better at that, I think.

Two thoughts. First, I just want to say thank you to both of you for sharing your authentic stories on a week in and week out basis. Like, you're talking about, like, when I get to connect with donors and man, what a privilege and an honor to do so and to hear the stories that God is writing. So many of them say. I feel like I know Nick and Trevor. And so just as a kudos to you guys of like, this is a place where you guys are being real and honest. And then Nick, to your point of if you'll be faithful to share it, I'll be faithful to use it. I was just reminded last year, getting to fly to North Dakota and to get to speak and kind of use my story in a new context in a small town church. And it was supposed to be just for youth group. Sorry, just for the youth kids. But they were like, man, we should make this a whole church wide event. I had shared a snippet of my story and they're like, is that what you're sharing tonight? And they're like, we're inviting everybody. And they invited everybody. I'm like, my audience just changed drastically. Here we go. And yet I got to share it maybe in front of 30, 40 people. Wasn't a ton. The weekend came and went. I was flying out of this small town in North Dakota and there was one guy in the airport. And of course you guys know me. I walk in, I'm like, yes, he's mine. You know, like, I get 20, 30 minutes, I get a captive audience and I walk up and I'm like, I'm like, hey, my name's John. And he goes, oh, I know. I'm like, whoa, what? And he goes, I was there Friday night and I heard your story and I went home and I told my wife of 36 years something I had never told her. And I'm like, now, like crying in this airport, like, what? Like, God, are you serious? And he goes, it was really painful. He goes, but I think there's a lot of hope on the other side. And I just walked away going, man, God, like, you're so insanely incredible at doing things that I can't ask, think, or imagine. And so just as an encouragement to the audience, like, we never know. We never know who's in the crowd. We never know what God is doing.

Yeah. So for a lot of people, telling their story is fearful Intimidating. And I hope today we've given them a lot of courage and ideas and like that sense of, of you can do this, don't overcomplicate it. But for people on the other end of the spectrum, there is a little bit of like any opportunity, like here I go. So what kind of guidance would you give them on how might we know if the situation is right? Like how do we read the room and get a sense for. Is this an open door to share my story? What kind of guidance would you give there?

Yeah, I think safety is really important and I think what we experience within a group context, whether that's betrayal and beyond unraveled, seven pillars, living free. Is that sense of confidentiality, the memo of understanding. We all have kind of a baseline. Of course you're not going to get that in the real world. And so I don't know what categories or how you would maybe define safety, but let's define if this person is safe. I find myself sharing my story most often in a one on one context over coffee. After usually I'll say something about pure desire. And the other young adult that's looking me in the eyes is like, can we have coffee? I'm like, yeah, that'd be awesome, let's do it. And then we share stories in this safe place. And so yeah, assess the safety. I don't think it's always necessarily the right place. And then secondly, this is gonna be maybe a little bit of left turn. But I just want people to know that we're talking about your story of healing. This isn't the fullness of your story, this is just a portion of it. There is so much to what God is doing. And so please don't limit yourself to think I'm just a story of sexual brokenness. And it's just about my like what about financial and what about like career and there are so many other stories that God is weaving in our lives. And so please don't feel boxed of like I guess I just have to share my sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma with everybody. No, that's not always true. So yeah, I think I'd assess the safety of the person. It's really important to have an attuned listener. And I think the beauty of having somebody who is safe, who is attuned, who enters into our story, they can often play the role of new eyes and new perspective. And actually our stories are being shaped as we share them, which is why it's so important because we are all in progress. And as we share it, somebody Goes, wait, you said this? Or Ted's famous line, hey, can you unpack that for me? And I think that's the really beautiful part about sharing our story with safe people. That in the same way that we can't smell the smell of our homes, we're inviting somebody who isn't nose blind into our story. Hey, I smelled this and that's not normal. And you're like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea. Because I've lived in that story. And so I think it's really important to invite outside people into the story. But, yeah, to make sure that they're safe. So I don't know if you guys have thoughts around safety.

I just was thinking, you and I have had this conversation before about almost repurposing the three Circles tool that we use for relapse prevention and doing it in a way where it's. You have your inner circle of people that know everything. You have a middle circle of people that know most of your story, and then an outer circle that you're not safe with those people. You don't necessarily need to. And I think you and I, when we've talked about it, that when we live in secrecy and shame, that there's this easy. What tends to happen when you get into recovery and healing is it feels like this, like, hard shift to the other direction. Like, everyone get in my kitchen. Everyone's in the inner circle. And I think that that can do damage to yourself. I think it can do damage to the people you're talking to. And so. So I think the one thing you need to consider is just time. Who deserves to be in that inner circle and who deserves to hear your whole story and boundaries and don't just consider your safety, but also, is this person ready to hear this part of my story?

So true.

Yeah, I think it's good to test the waters, so to speak. I find myself a lot when people ask, what do you do? Say, I work at Pure Desire. I direct a non profit. And if they follow up with like, oh, that's interesting. How'd you get involved there? I'll say hi to watching out of my own addiction. And my wife and I found incredible healing through Pure Desire. And if that sparks curiosity and they ask more, it's like, oh, okay, this is the open door. Or sometimes it's like, oh, you know, hard left turn, change the subject, thank you.

And they turn away.

Okay. You know, not the right time or place. And so wherever you're at, unless someone has invited you to jump into the deep end don't just jump into the deep end. Maybe start with a few things. And if it's sparking questions, curiosity, like, okay, I can wade in deeper. The other thing that I'm always just trying to think of in those situations is if I'm not sure, just ask. Like, say, you know, I've had quite a story of healing from addiction in my own life. Would it be okay if I shared that and giving them that dignity to say, you know, I'd love to another time and can't really right now, or, you know, it's rare, I think, for someone to turn that down. But even in asking, you're giving them kind of that opportunity to say no. And even if in politeness they say yes, it's like, well, I said yes. So, okay, they're gonna listen, they're gonna be impacted by it. But yeah, if you're not sure, just ask. And I think their response will really give you clarity on how much to share and really create that opportunity in those circumstances.

Yeah. So let's wrap it up then. What? When you think about someone who's trying to, you know, and obviously it could be an hour, it could be over weeks and years, or it could just be a three minute conversation in a coffee line. What final encouragements would we give people in using this three piece kind of framework to tell our stories effectively?

Yeah, I'd say the simpler the better. To start like we're talking about, there is that center circle that all in that four secrets top 10 pain matrix of addiction, you go down the list and that's not for everybody. But I just say, keep it really simple. There was a before, and that could be as simple as I struggled with pornography in high school. I then came in contact with pure desire and began to realize that porn wasn't my problem. It was just the poor solution to the pain. And I began to walk in greater lengths of freedom and healing. And then the after is I felt called to share my story of sexual brokenness so that the next generation might know Jesus and not addiction. That's my story.

That's 15 seconds.

That was 15 seconds. So where's the 15 second version again? And I think sometimes when someone says, what's your story? It can feel overwhelming. There can be a lot of anxiety. What are they asking? How long do I have to tell you?

What do you want from me?

Yeah, what do you want?

For sure?

What if it was just as simple as, again, a before, during, after. And so whether that's through the lens of curiosity, like, hey, can you Be curious and honest of what was before, compassionate to care enough for what was in between and now courageous enough to share that story. And I think just one last maybe question that I think is really helpful instead of approaching it with what was wrong with me, what happened to me. That is such a pivotal question. From judgment to compassion. And so as somebody saying, what's your story? Just, yeah, this is what's happened to me. This is where I've been and this is where I'm at now. Please share the hope. Like, they need the hope. They need the hope.

Yeah. I love the idea that we need to write it down, we need to write it out. You know, this can be messy area and sometimes we start sharing, it's just like, oh, and this. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, I need to tell you this. And we're just all over the place. And that can actually make us fearful to share our story. Because it's like, where do I start? It's just this jumble of all these thoughts, experiences. Well, writing your story kind of forces you to create some continuity, some flow, and then to look at it. And if you realize you've got 19 pages, well, there's probably one or two people on the planet that need to hear the 19 page version. It's then looking at, okay, how could I pare this down to a page or two? How can I make it manageable? And after you've written it out, and I know this sounds funny, but like practice it, Go to your group or your spouse or a close friend that knows most of the story and say, hey, I've written it up, could I share with you and does it make sense? Is it cohesive and what I think is amazing. When we start to do that, we will find all these times where coincidentally someone asked me about my story or you'll never believe it. I had this chance to tell someone, it was just this huge coincidence and it's like, well, well, was it? Or was it that now we were prepared, we felt confident, it was on our minds and we saw an opportunity where before we would have been maybe too fearful and we would have just let it pass us by. But now there's all these coincidences where I get to share my story because I'm ready. So if you don't feel ready, but you've never really written it down or thought it through or practiced it, that's probably why. And if you just take some of those simple steps, like tonight, start working on your story, start writing it out, or maybe you did it in Group and haven't looked at it since you did it six months ago. Like, go back to that rough draft and start to refine, Start to think about what could I actually say if I was in a conversation with a friend who didn't know this story at all? And practice that. And then I believe God just has a way of opening those doors that you'll get to use it. So take that first step and see what happens.

Yeah, I got two things. One is, like, use current situations and language, like, in context. Like, I think sometimes you hear leaders or you're listening to them share or talk, and they're talking about all these things that happened in the past. It's like, yeah, yeah, I get that you're awesome, but do you struggle with stuff now? Can you help me understand? So I think that there's. That can go a long way.

And then I met Jesus, and then I became Jesus. So I'm all good.

When we get to heaven, I'll be in line first. But yeah, anyways, I think that's the first one is using some of that current stuff. But then I don't know if you guys have experienced. I'm sure you have experienced this. When someone's telling you their story and you can tell they want something from you, you can tell there's an agenda here or there's a hook on the end, and it's like, okay, I'm just gonna shrink back over here. I think telling our stories without having an agenda. Like, just knowing that if someone asks or wants to know, I'm just sharing and almost let that person guide where you go. If they have more questions, great. If they turn away and like, that guy's weird. He works for a porn ministry. Go, great, that's fine. Move on. But don't go into it with like, I am going to wield my story in a way that's going to change this person's life, and I'm not going to accept failure. It's like, well, who's that about then? And so I think keeping that in.

Mind, you know, quick story. I was at the gym one time, and a guy was being friendly, making conversation, but then he asked, you know, he got like. You could tell his demeanor change. He's like, how satisfied would you say you are with your life? And there was this little red warning light that went off because I'd actually sat through a sales presentation, and that's what they taught. Like, so just ask people at the gym how satisfied. Then I'm like. And I just immediately. The kind of smarmy, sales pitchy. I was just trying to, like, run away from this guy. I'm like, don't try to sell me your product, because I'm really not.

You're running away super satisfied.

Super satisfied. Yeah.

I was like, actually, I'm really. I said, I'm really generally happy. I'm not looking for more. And you could tell, like, he wanted to go into my pitch, his pitch, But I had an answer. I think when we are super excited about pure desire or a story like this, to remember, as you've been saying, John, for some people, it's a foreign smell. It's still like, there's maybe a ton of fear in their life. This is a huge pocket of shame. They're maybe around people that have no idea what they're. You might not even know what they're struggling with. And so if you get hesitation, fearfulness, it's okay. Like, don't be sales pitchy. Just like you've said, John, be compassionate, be gracious, be kind, and be patient. That. That may not be the moment that you could still share your story, knowing that if the reaction you get is kind of like, oh, thanks, good, and they walk away like, oh, well, that didn't. I thought it was going to create some great response. Well, maybe they're processing some things at a level way deeper than you realize. So, Nick, just share the story, but don't be a sales pitch. I guess why I brought that up.

Yes. Literally last year, and we can close here. Last year, I was sharing with two dudes over some pizza. We had recently met. We were newer to the city, and I shared my story pretty openly and pretty vulnerably. And me and my roommate got in the car and my roommate was like, what was that? We were getting to know one another, and I'm like, dude, those guys were so closed off and they were so. They didn't share at all. Like, I just have such a high expectation. And again, sometimes I have to remember the world in which I live in regarding work isn't necessarily the world that other people are living in. Yeah, yeah, right. And honestly, in some ways, it was really prideful and really arrogant on my end because I was expecting them to be so open and so honest. And it was a year later that reality really crashed for me and honestly just got emotional. You're sharing, Nick, because this guy and I, one of those guys that was sitting there not being open, gets in a car. We get in a car together, go to lunch after church, and he looks at me, he Goes, gosh. He goes, john, I've been running from you for a long time.

Time.

I'm like, what? And he goes, we have the exact same story. And he goes. And a year ago, when you shared it, it was so frustrating because the amount of hope that you found and amount of stuff that you have, and he just sat there comparing himself the whole time. He goes, I need exactly what you have, and I don't know how to get it. And it was just like this really, like, whoa, moment of like, man. God, forgive me for the times I haven't been gracious. Forgive me for the times where I haven't shown mercy. Forgive me for the times I've been so arrogant and prideful to think that the world should go exactly how I want it to go. And so he's now in a group and it's like, really cool to watch what God is doing in his life. So, yeah.

Yeah. So this framework is super simple. And we know that it's effective, clearly, with your job. And we know that. And we, we know that this conversation is going to be helpful if you're thinking about how to tell your story, because this is something that's pretty customizable as well. But just using this before, during and after approach. And John, we appreciate the hours you spend with people. We appreciate your time and helping us unpack this framework. Thanks for being here.

Yeah.

So grateful.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from a wanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube well as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.