327 - Recovery & Healing Milestones

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Good morning, or whatever time it is for you. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 327 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbu.

Just when I think you couldn't possibly get any dumber, you go out and totally redeem yourself.

I should totally know this. It's not dumb and dumber, is it?

It is a dumb and dumber. Yeah.

Because that's. Yeah. Okay. All right, all right. I can go to sleep and at peace tonight.

It's when he goes out and he sells their shagging wagon, the one that's covered like a dog, and buys that tiny little moped for their trip across country. And he doesn't.

He, like. Because they drive to Aspen, right. And then they get there and he's like, you had a separate pair of.

Gloves the whole time. They're both freezing, and there's icicles coming out of their nostrils, and he pees.

That's the best. Oh, that's so funny. Okay. So Dumb and Dumber. Interested to see how that ties into the episode today, but we had Ashley Jamison on. She's our associate director of women's groups, and we talked about really, it's milestones in the recovery and healing journey.

Yeah. Well, the truth is, Trevor, that in this journey, most of us have done some pretty dumb stuff and had spouses that would say, yeah, dumb and dumber in terms of the behaviors and choices and addiction. And so in recovery, we're looking for, what does redemption look like? What does it look like to undo, to unravel, to unlearn our past and in a new way be able to mark and celebrate? Hey, we're moving in a different direction. I'm not the person that I used to be. And here are some ways that we can actually mark or put a stake down and say, this is different. This has changed. And maybe even in some ways, say, and it's been this long or this much growth. And so that's what made me think of that illustration of just, we've done dumb stuff, but we're looking to redeem ourselves. And so how do we celebrate when we do see that redemption is happening and even make that something that we're able to do in a community kind of way, whether with our spouse or our group, that marking those milestones can be a significant part of that redemption journey.

Yeah. And I think it was a significant conversation. We all talked about it toward the end, too. Just how fun that conversation was and how creative and unique it was. And I would just use this opportunity to say that was, as you'll hear in the episode, this is someone who sent in this topic suggestion. And I'm just saying, I see these, I take them in. We make episodes out of it. So if you have topic suggestions, please just send them to podcasturedesire.org and we'll get those on the list. And before we get to today's episode, just make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Also, write us a review. It helps helps other people find the podcast. And also you can follow us on social media at puredesirepdmi. And with that, here's our conversation with Ashley Jamison on recovery and healing milestones. Ashley Jameson. Oh, you go.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Go. Ready, go.

Take two. Ashley Jameson, welcome back. We're glad to have you with us. Thanks for being here.

I am so excited to be here.

If people. I think people do know. I think people know how awkward your introductions are, but this one was like, times 10. Anyways. Okay, so today, here's the reality. The journey of healing and recovery is a tough one. We all know that. And regardless of our effort, some seasons just seem to be stagnant and feel like we're not gaining any process. Sometimes these seasons can just feel like they go on forever. And one of the ways to combat this feeling is to identify milestones. And so, as the three of us have been on either the recovery or the betrayal healing journey, we just want to spend time unpacking milestones and this idea. And I will say this was a topic sent in by a listener. And so we really appreciate that. Yeah. And listen, if you don't think I try to respond to as many of those emails as I can, I do read all of them and I put them in a podcast folder and when I come in my email inbox, and then when we come time to do more episodes, I always look at that, so.

Or you pawn it off on other people.

Okay, that's not what today's about.

I've gotten a few of those emails.

Yeah, that is fair. Delegation is healthy. Okay.

Oh, okay. Delegation.

Yeah, yeah, duh. Okay, so it's clearly a Friday afternoon when we're recording this. Okay. On the journey of healing and recovery. And again, we've maybe already answered this question, but let's flesh it out. Is identifying celebrating milestones really important? Why or why not?

Yes, it is so important. I'm going to try to Answer this question without revealing all of Trevor's secrets. But part one to this answer is yes. It's so important because when we hit milestones, it gives us motivation to change, like traction. It's like the snowball, you know, the snowball effect. It gets rolling and then, and then other things start falling into place and everything's so interconnected. That's why when we do well with eating, oftentimes we'll do better with exercise. Well, we're just more aware because it really is all that addict brain connected. And so getting a little bit of a milestone or victory can motivate our brains for change, but then it also gives us hope. You know, if you've been stuck in a pattern for decades and you hit a milestone, you start to believe I really can change. And we, we all know deep down into like the 8, 10 year mark of our journey that our thoughts control so much of what we do. And so reaching those milestones really triggers those thoughts to say, I can do this. I made it this far. The part that I was going to like reveal some of your secrets is for not everybody knows, but Trevor and I are always communicating about like diet and eating and so is Justin behind the camera because we want to be aware of like healthy relationship with food. And so there's lots of times where it's like I'm stuck. So if you're stuck and you haven't reached a milestone, that's where it's so important to figure out what's one little like baby thing you can just bite size milestone that you can accomplish just to get yourself moving again. And it's really incredible how that ends up working. And I'm sure if anybody's struggled with food or alcohol or anything, when you do like hit a new number on a scale or you go a certain amount of days without drinking, that it gives you this new encouragement.

Yeah. As I think about this question, I think it really matters what the milestone is that we're celebrating. And we'll talk about some of the dangers in another question. But I think there are a lot of programs that get overly focused on a certain number of just simply the behavior. But there are many, many other milestones that I think are worth marking and then to make sure we're celebrating them, not just knowing, oh, it's okay this happened, it's like, no, this is a really good thing. And I was writing down a couple of examples, like maybe noticing how much we've grown in a disagreement with our spouse that we don't get reactive and leave the room or blow up or make a rude comment. We're like, wow, that's growth. That's a milestone. That's an achievement to note and celebrate. There's something happening here that now I'm excited about. Or maybe it's recognizing in a part of our day there's something we would typically have been dishonest about or. Or we would have typically created some deception around. But instead we're choosing to be vulnerable and honest and open. Like, those are milestones that I think are worth marking, kind of noting and seeing. This is something. I mean, that's when we travel. What is a milestone? It's to note growth. It's to note that we've made some progress. And so there are a lot of things about the journey that we could celebrate. The other thing I find is helpful about celebrating milestones is if it helps us remember our why not just keeping track of a number or how many days it's been, but being able to look at the it's been this many days since I have been honoring my marriage. It's been this long since I've put my relationships first, that I've prioritized my health over avoidance. Whatever kind of things come to mind for us when we think of our why we want to celebrate those milestones of this is another season. One other thing I've thought of, just because I've heard it from a lot of group members, is when they go through a significant season like the holidays or a summer vacation or a Mother's Day, that maybe in the past they know this is every single year led to a relapse or to a train wreck or to a family argument. And if you can mark like, man, it's been two years since that's happened, or this is the first Christmas where I haven't, you know, fill in the blank. Those are milestones. And even if it's the first one, it's like, that's an achievement. That's something to mark and celebrate because you're able to see growth in your life and maybe in your relationships.

Yeah. And I think what's so great about having milestones and being able to identify and celebrate them is that there are going, I promise you, there are going to be seasons in recovery that feel stagnant. There are going to be times where you feel like you're not making these huge leaps and bounds that maybe you were making in seasons past. And so to remember that these are encouragement tools that you can look back and be like, oh, no, no, no, I have come a long way. Look how far I've come. Look at this thing and this thing and this thing that I've accomplished. And so in those moments, it helps us to keep our perspective headed in the right direction. Because when we are stagnant, it feels a lot easier to just turn back and go to where we've been before. And so these can be extremely helpful tools when it comes to needing encouragement in those rough seasons.

Yeah. And as you were saying that, Trevor, it made me think of. I mean, you recently got to listen to, I forget his name, the author of Atomic Habits. And I've been reading that book, that whole 1%. So sometimes if we're feeling a little discouraged or just getting going, it's not big milestones, but it's just each day we're striving to do a little bit better, feed the good part of our brain a little more than we did yesterday. And even that can be a big deal.

So for men and women that are in recovery, Ashley, as we deal with most often from sexual addiction or healing from betrayal, trauma, is a certain length of sobriety a good milestone and why or why not?

Yes, I would say that. And I'm not the brain expert that will have to be somebody else. But in many, many books, I'm a book junkie in my own experience, my own personal life, what I see in groups and then also in trainings that we do for recertifications. I often hear that 90 days is a key milestone. I know that when John was going through his therapy, the counselor who was an expert in the brain was explaining that if he can abstain from a few things, one was porn and another was video games. Thank the Lord. And he said, what happens is that that neural pathway that lights up when you use those things. And he did say porn and video games are on the same wavelength, that it quiets down and it like, kind of atrophies enough, like, loses control enough so that then he can do the deep work of getting to the root. And so I personally have quit many, many things, many times. And I do notice too, that after a few abstaining from something, it's not so much about the number. It's about giving my brain space back. And that everything we do takes up mental real estate. And we get something called decision fatigue because we're constantly tug of waring with our addiction and. And trying, or another phrase would be like white knuckling it, that we're thinking about it so much. And so to give ourselves a chance to really quiet that noise in our brain and free up that space. Then we can do the heavy lifting of getting to the reason of why we do what we do.

And that's exactly what I was thinking, is that at first, yes, I think a length of sobriety or a length of your partner not acting out is a good milestone to have. But to be careful that that doesn't become the gauge on whether you're making progress or you're getting healthy or not. Because we know that after like, a year or two, you may relapse again. That may happen, and that's a part of a lot of people's stories where new life circumstances come in or a new traumatic happens or something triggers something that you thought you dealt with, but you haven't. And then a relapse happens or a lapse happens. And if you're leveraging the length of sobriety as the biggest milestone, then in those moments, your journey's crushed. But if you're able to look at it and identify that it is healthy, yes, we do want sobriety. That is part of the equation. But understand that that cannot become the why. The why is not how long can I be sober? The why is a healthy relationship and being a good friend and being a good parent and being emotionally present and healthy. And so, yes, it's okay to have that as long as it doesn't morph into the why of what we're doing.

Yeah, that's kind of my answer, too, that to me, this is a yes and a no, because I think it's a danger that can make people overly focused on a behavior. And we've talked so much about how a behavior is just the outcome of deeper things. And if we're not addressing the deeper things in addition to the behavior, we may not actually be making progress. We may just be learning a different way to cope with our pain or trauma or circumstances. And so it's kind of the classic example that a lot of people are aware of that the guy who's going to AA says, It's been 4,938 days since my last drink, but at every possible opportunity, he's outside smoking cigarettes, he's got terrible eating habits or all these other things, but, man, haven't had a drink, and it's like, good for you. But has anything really changed at a deeper level? So I think that's where we want to be cautious of. If all I'm doing is counting days since my last relapse, but my relationships aren't improving, I'm not learning to live in honesty and vulnerability. I'm not practicing health in other areas of my life. I'm really not going to get that far. So we have to be cautious of that. But on the flip side, to not be aware of progress at all in terms of milestones or marking those days could also be equally dangerous. And I think this is less common. But I have heard examples where someone is almost deluding themselves into feeling good about their progress. Like, man, my relationships are improving and I'm spending more time with the Lord and I still relapse every two weeks. But this is good and this is good and they want to kind of gloss over, well, I haven't really changed much of the habit. Maybe the circumstances of how I'm responding to it are getting better and those are good. But you also would want to look at, well, why am I not getting traction there? So it's kind of this delicate balance of, yes, it's a way that we can mark traction and see there's progress, but it's not the only thing and it's not the only indicator of health that's coming in our life. So I think if we see that with some wisdom, it can really be helpful. The other thing I thought about with milestones that we want to be careful tracking sobriety is looking forward. Because maybe someone in group says, man, it's been six years since I last relapsed and we're in our first month and we're going to six years. I can never make that. And when we look forward, it can be hard to know how can I get there? Versus really the value of milestones is being able to look back and celebrate how far we've come. But when we're sitting in our seat looking forward, we can only do recovery one day at a time. You can't be thinking about how I'm going to get to that five year mark today. You've got to be thinking about how do I make those choices today and then get up and do it again tomorrow? And that idea that recovery is a one day at a time process. So just make sure in maybe thinking of milestones or looking forward to them, you don't miss that. You can only do recovery in this day in order to get to those milestones.

So let's press into that then. What are some examples of milestones for men and women in recovery from sexual addiction or unwanted sexual behaviors? What do those look like?

Well, you know, to piggyback off a little bit of what Nick was saying. Yes, it is important to understand physiologically what happens to our bodies? Like. Like he was saying, even, like, with the alcohol situation of we don't want to just count days. So that balance of, you know, there are, like, physiological things that happen after week one, week two, week three, week in our bodies when we're giving up something we've been addicted to. And that's why we show brain scans and things like that. And so that's good to be aware, but have the mentality of, instead of uncounting, you know, maybe you're counting down days because you're quitting something for a while, or you're counting up days, just really shifting your mind to, I want to live as healthy and in touch as I can right now and for forever. And so milestones, I think that are really good are things that focus around that, like recognizing, yes, after so many days, things get easier. And for milestones, we want it to be things like, do I instantly reach for the phone now when I'm triggered, rather than going to isolate? Am I sharing honestly and quickly? Like, a huge milestone is if you've hidden and, you know, lied and manipulated over your addiction for years. Years. When you relapse or stumble, do you automatically pick up and call your group and you tell your spouse, you know, quickly do you get your recovery action plan out? That's. That's a big victory. I mean, I would say as a leader of betrayed spouses, that's probably the number one thing that spouses look for and celebrate is that my husband in my group, my husband told me right away that is what they're looking for, is that honesty, actively engaging in recovery. So, yeah, not just having a number, but if you're just detoxing, which is like, phase one, you know, you get all the alcohol out of the house, but then phase two has to be getting to the root of why we go for those things in the first place. And so you can't simply just stop looking at porn or acting out. You have to be engaging in recovery. And so when I see my husband doing that, or even myself, that I'm. You know, we get lazy. Sometimes even I do. And so when I'm in a season of working hard and engaging my recovery and either in a group or leading a group, I know that I'm. I'm doing well for myself. Being mentally present is a huge one. I. I didn't realize that John wasn't very mentally present for the first four years of our marriage until I experienced it. And I'm like, this is what it looks like when you're like looking at me and listening completely. And I can tell like it's one of the biggest tells is like why are your eyes glassed over? Like why are you literally walking out of the room when I'm mid sentence? And I do know I talk a lot. So some of that's on me. And then just self awareness, being able to say instead of being like the kids are stressing me out, I just need to leave and get some time. That was kind of an old response for us, for me and for John when we were very addictive. But people be able to say like I'm feeling exhausted or I'm feeling pressure because of work or you know, I let go of my routine. So now things are building up and I think I need to like sit down and figure out what I need. That kind of language to me was showing me that things were changing. And then the last couple that I can think of are that you see your relationships are increasing with God and with others you're not spending so much time isolating and that you're actually escaping before the trigger takes over. And so I would say sharing honestly and seeing John or myself be able to use tools like the escape plan or see things coming and make adjustments ahead of time are probably like my very favorite things about recovery. Is that really clear self awareness and then the follow through to use the tools that we've learned.

Yeah, I know for my wife and I, we still look at our marriage and refer to it often as before pure desire and after pure desire. And there is kind of a marking of how long has that been. And it's not necessarily about tracking any one thing but just a way to remember we do marriage differently now. And sometimes to speak into that and say we, that's, that's our old way. That's what we used to do. That's before we were aware of a lot of these things and those are the unhealthy habits we're moving away from. This is how we do it now. And so I think reminding yourself of that by just marking this is a point in time we decided we're going to make change. I decided I'm going to make change. And whether you've been without relapse in that whole time or not, I think you can still mark it's been X number of months or years since we've started this journey and we're still on it and God's still at work. So I think that's a helpful one. I mean we've already talked about sobriety I think it is good to just track as a way to encourage yourself. Hey, I did it for 60 days. Why can't I go 61 and 65? And so that's useful. I think for some guys it's how much time they've spent in group or helping lead groups that that becomes significant to say, man, look how God is beginning to use my story. It's now been three years of helping other men or some who have tracked. It's been, you know, I've helped 18 men in my groups on this same journey. So God has taken my one story and multiplied it 18 times over. I think that's a milestone that we can mark. I already mentioned things like relationship health, of being able to celebrate. We were able to have a disagreement and work through it and identify our emotional reactions and share those and not go to that old unhealthy place. So I think that's the kind of milestones we could celebrate. And just the time that we've been able to go without some of those old unhealthy coping mechanisms like video gaming or social media or going to certain parts of town or just the kind of stores that were a part of our pattern and being able to just look and see, you know what, my life is just as good without those things. I haven't needed them in my life. And I think taking courage to keep moving forward and then that can give us some wisdom. If there are activities we look at some point bringing back into our life, we can kind of reflect on the time without them and determine, is this really something I want to pick back up? Because some of those things that we miss early, early on and we start to count, man, it's been X number of days since I've been on that social media site. Then a person gets to several months or a year down the road and they look at it and go, you know what, I don't miss it anymore. I don't want to go back to where I was always engaged in that and checking every day and facing possible triggers. So I think just marking those things as well can be a useful part of the process.

Yeah. And to go back to, I think something you said at the beginning, Nick, is that a milestone is evidence of growth. It's evidence of direction that has been taken. And so it can be so flexible to where you are in your journey, like what you've been through. I think for me it's like identifying bad habits, like the fact that I'm able to say, oh, doing that is not helpful for Me, it's not helpful for my relationship. That in and of itself can be a milestone. Habits that you do create can totally be it. And this is something I encourage my group members, too. Like, when they're triggered by something and they reach out, that is a milestone to be celebrated. Because before when you were triggered, you had no idea. I don't have any idea why I'm going down the faster scale. I don't even know what the faster scale is like now. The fact that you can do that is a healthy thing. And so I think what I would say to this question is, like, we can give you examples until we're blue in the face, but this is gonna be customizable to you and your journey. And you can make a milestone out of anything as long as you know it's something that's reminding you of the direction and growth you've taken.

Yeah. And can I say too, like, to. I mean, I'm going to do a shameless plug for groups. But this is why group is so important for a couple reasons. Because we can be so stuck in our pain that sometimes it does take a friend and not to minimize or, like, downplay our pain, but sometimes when a friend says, it's amazing that he told you because he's never told you before, or they point out something, that's growth, that's change, and that's different. Or. Or you go through group the second time, or you go through as a co leader the second time, and you're looking at your answers from the year before when you first went through and you were hurting so badly. Like, when I look at my journals, I am like, I cannot even believe I was that bad. It doesn't even seem like it's the same person anymore. And that's happened every year. Like, oh, that's where I was last year. And like, you're saying a lot of times it's not numbers. It's like, I was really struggling with anger last year. I was really struggling with sexual intimacy because of the betrayal. And it's amazing to see how different things are and we forget. And I think that's why we hear over and over from, you know, people that came far before us that it's so good to write things down and to write praise reports down and to write our struggles down because we will look back at those and see how far God has taken us through those things.

Yeah. So, Ashley, for those who are the spouse of a struggler, an addict, what should their role be in their spouse's milestones? Like, what sort of things could a betrayed spouse be looking for? And should they be keeping track of these milestones or should they leave that more to their spouse who's in recovery?

I think it's a little bit of both. And again, this is why group is important. Because we can't teach somebody what to look for, how much to engage in their spouses. Like in one episode, it literally takes a whole group because for one spouse it may be very necessary that, that her husband, you know, I may have a spouse in my group where her husband it, it's a safety thing for him to share his location because maybe he was acting out with females before or prostitution and then a milestone for her. Maybe I actually don't want the location anymore because we've gotten to this place. Or I don't need passwords to things anymore because I realize when I go into those, it creates more anxiety. That was my story of like, I came to a place where I didn't want so much information anymore because I felt safe. I felt like I was trusting his behaviors and we were having enough engagement for me to feel like we are making good progress. I can tell he's healing and now these things are actually creating more chaos and more anxiety for me. And so it's really nuanced in what we need. And the milestone that one spouse looks for may be completely different than what another one looks for. But, but what I would say is that in those early years, share those things. And so, you know, I told John, like when I wake up and I see you, you know, reading like a growth book or in your Bible or journaling, it is so it just like gives me this peace that I don't get when I wake up and see you playing video games. And not, not that it's all about like that it's about the video games. It's just, it's for me, after being married to him for 14 years, it shows me where his mindset is. Is he going to start the day like in this slow, very intentional, self aware way, or is he like waking up and like needing something right away? Like needing a hit of something right away. And so those have become little indicators for me. So I say when I see you reading your Bible and not like checking it off, but like see you actually like enjoying your time with the Lord and like listening to the Holy Spirit when he's not defensive. That was like, like you're saying Nick pre. Pure desire. And after not being defensive and being able to articulate where he's at on the Faster scale and what and how his thoughts and feelings are connecting. Taking ownership of the pain that has been caused because of this or even the time and money we've had to spend on recovery. When we first started was like, I'm not an addict and I don't have daddy issues. Like, he really thought that and so did I because I'm like, ew, gross. Why is porn related to your dad? That just sounds so gross. Like, understand what daddy issues mean? Like, it just sounds all weird. But then after like a year, we're like, I have daddy issues and I'm addicted to porn. Because you understand that it's really not about the sex. And so just taking owner ownership. And then for him, like acknowledging triggers. There's times now where we'll be out somewhere and he'll say, I'm wondering if you're triggered and if you are, I'm sorry. Because he just recognizes like an environment or something. And I think that is so just mature in his healing and his recovery to recognize that, to verbalize it and then to share with me. So yeah, it's going to be different for every spouse. But those kinds of things.

Yeah, the three that I wrote down were just like honesty and small things. I know that that's been helpful for my wife. And that's just like not even recovery focus. It's just honesty and small daily things. I think you can also, as a betrayed partner, use the milestone of how long your spouse has been in group, like how long they've been at this recovery journey. Keeping that in mind. And then I think, I don't know, this one can be a little bit fuzzy. But I just thought consistency and check ins, like if you're consistently checking in every single week and you have something where you're going through the faster scale or fanos or whatever, these different tools you can use. As long as there's a weekly check in, you can also create a milestone out of that. We've been doing this for three months or nine months or two years, that kind of thing. I think those are some simple things too that just show there's a direction that's being taken by the struggling spouse. And I think that that can bring safety and support to a betrayed partner.

Yeah, I think in some ways tracking sobriety may almost be more important for the spouse than it is the addict or struggler themselves. Because as we talked about, the addict or struggler could get maybe too focused on just that behavior. But for the spouse, that is some certainty they want, that's some peace of Mind. And we talked about using a tool like Fanos and the S of Fanos is sobriety, current length of sobriety. And if you're willing to do that, whether it's daily or even weekly, having those check ins with your spouse and being able to share. It's been, you know, three months since my last relapse or I'm however many number of days, then your spouse doesn't have to ask you. And I think that's really important for them that they're able to kind of keep where like, okay, it's been four months, maybe there's some change happening and I can start to, you know, look for some other signs of growth and not just be hyper focused on, is he going to hurt me again with a relapse? Is she going to act out again? So I do think there is value in that. Just because like I said, when someone has been betrayed by these issues and these behaviors, they are wondering how soon is this going to happen again? Is it going to happen again? And so being willing to continue to report on that, continue to say how you're doing, may give them the confidence as they start to see milestones happening. That's more valuable to them than it is even to you as the struggle. Yeah.

So Ashley, just because like, let's look at the other side of this because yes, we want to look at milestones from a betrayed partner's perspective to their struggling spouse. But there also can be milestones for that betrayed partner, evidences that they have grown or they've taken steps in their healing. What are some examples of those?

So Nick kind of touched on it for a minute with the communication, but I was going to say when you use the tools, whether it's your own plans, escape plan, recovery action plan, faster scale thanos, whatever you're using, if you use that before your spouse has to beg, like you relapse, you know, there's been times where John has relapsed and I'm like, get your recovery action plan out. Call Rodney, call the counselor, call you. Like, that's so exhausting. And that doesn't really show me that he's taking ownership of his recovery. And then there's been times where it's like, like, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. He's honest, he's right on it. And then he's like, this is what I've done. I called my group, I called my accountability, I set an appointment for counseling, I did a crash site analysis. Like, that's very attractive and it shows growth because I don't expect him to be perfect forever and I don't expect me to be perfect. And so when we're able to use our tools without the spouse having to kind of police it or like nag to death, that is really big. And then for John, a huge thing for him was when he started recognizing how important self care was and taking that time, he started doing better. And so before when I'd say, well, why don't you go do something if you need a break? And it's like, well, I can't because I have to work and I have to blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, your self care is so important for you to be able to keep dealing with this crazy clown circus family. And now when he's able to say, I think I'm needing a break, I think I need to be compressed, I think I need to recharge because he's an introvert, I'm happily, you know, willing to jump in and take the kids. So that's been a something for me to look at too. And then all the other things we've said, like articulating your thoughts and feelings, communicating honestly and timely, seeing that he's increasing in relationship and, and so really trust the behaviors and not so much the words because, you know, if you've been told things and maybe lied to, blamed, experienced them being in denial or gaslighting, it's really hard to know that they're healing. And so I shared this before on a podcast, but one of the things that helped put things on paper for me because I'm such a logical, pragmatic kind of thinker, was to take Dawn's three circles and to say, like, for a betrayed spouse, we never saw what was happening in the middle most of the time. I mean, we didn't really see them acting out with porn or with fairs or whatever it was, but we did often see what was happening in the middle circle. Staying up too late, too many video games, too much drinking, cussing, going out to bars with friends or, or whatever it may be, not taking good self care. So we usually saw the middle circle and the outer circle, but never the inner. And so if you, if our husband is then, or you know, the addict spouse is then making progress, then we really need to see them spending more time in that outer circle. And so me just simply looking at his three circles and saying, you're spending a lot of time in the middle circle. And that's what I saw when you're relapsing, so how am I Supposed to know the difference. If both. Both cases, whether you're relapsing or not, you're in the middle circle. And so just. Just seeing him be in that outer circle more is what I can look for. And that put some language on it for me instead of just like, having this, like, touchy feeling like, oh, do I trust him? Do I not? It gave me something to look at.

Yeah. I think some of the milestones a betrayed spouse might look at are similar to the addict in terms of their group involvement. How long have I been engaged in my own healing? And those aren't always the same timeframe as their spouse or how many other women or how many other men have I helped in their story because of what God's doing in my life? And. And kind of seeing, like, man, it's been three years and X number of groups and X number of women or this many men that I'm helping. And that I think just really reminds us that the way that God takes our challenges, takes our pain and uses them for good. But I also think for a lot of betrayed spouses having milestones around, finding their voice, I know how important this was for my wife of feeling like she had gained some tools and understanding of how to have healthy personal boundaries and not to allow, whether it was me or other family members to run those over and make her feel devalued or diminished. Having the ability to stand up for herself in appropriate ways. I think that was something she was kind of marking of like, this is the new me. This is how I can react and I can do it in grace and love, but I can still be firm and have boundaries. And that's kind of a milestone marker for her of the way it's changed a lot of relationships in her life, and not always in. That doesn't mean they're all good. Because sometimes when we create boundaries and stand up for ourselves, others that are used to having their way don't know how to respond to that. So that may be a caution. Also, is not necessarily looking at success what we might always define as success around us in terms of relationships or other people agreeing with it, to mark it as a milestone for us that if it's healthy for us, it's creating space where we have good, healthy boundaries. That's a good thing. Even if there may be others that it's caused a little bit of friction with.

A few that come to mind for me are maybe you are sharing your story publicly for the first time with someone else that says that there's been Some ownership. I think scheduling, self care and actually following through for a betrayed partner is another milestone and then another one. And this is. Ashley, forgive me if you said this, you might have mentioned kind of around it, but the idea that if your spouse. If you're the betrayed partner and your spouse says, hey, I'm gonna go out to dinner with some friends, or I'm gonna go golfing, or I'm gonna go whatever, and you don't immediately get triggered or you don't think, oh, my gosh, you know what's gonna happen. And feeling the need to, like, ask questions and make sure you know all the information, that's a milestone. If you can be like, okay, have fun. We'll see you later. Like, that is a huge milestone. And so. And I was even thinking this one, too. This is not for every betrayed partner. But, I mean, sexual intimacy re. Engaging sexually can be a milestone. You finally feel safe enough that you can enter into this space again with your spouse. Now that some betrayed partners want to have sex right away, some want years, you know, or months without it. And so there's a spectrum there. But that could also be a gauge.

Yeah, I'm super glad that you guys answered all that, because I was totally reading the wrong answer to that question. So I, like, you guys know, I never. I usually don't ever, like, write my answers down. I'm always like, I know this stuff. That's why they're having me on the podcast. But my brain has been so, like, on this trip for tomorrow that we're taking that I'm like, I should jot down some notes. And then I read the totally wrong one. So. Good job speaking up for the betrayed spouses. You guys did such a good job.

Okay. I mean, shows we're learning.

Yeah.

Would you like to, you know, read the actual answer you wrote down for this question?

I was just gonna say, like, you guys covered it. I mean, exactly. Like, obviously, it sounds like you guys have betrayed spouses in your life, but the sex thing, like, I've articulated that with John. Like, I. I can re. Engage, but I'm not totally there the way I used to be. And feeling safe and vulnerable the way I used to be. It takes me sometimes, like, a good year. And then I remember the first time John went on a fire assignment, and he was in Arizona, and he had to pick up this woman because it doesn't work for a Christian ministry. Works for the government who thinks it's okay for males and females.

Right.

Okay.

Okay. Sorry. So he. He picked up the Female went to the airport. They flew to Arizona together, got a rental car, went to the same hotel. Separate rooms, right? But this hotel had, like, happy hour, free drinks. And so I was like, like, oh, my gosh, Trigger the whole time. Like, there was nothing I could do to not be triggered. I was a disaster, and I was using all my tools, but I just, like, could not get untriggered. The following year, a similar trip happened. And I didn't even, like, think about that experience until he got back. And then it just hit me, like, oh, my gosh. I like, oh, my God. It was so huge for me that I hadn't even, like, thought about it. I didn't ask, like, if there was girls there. And it was so freeing to know that, like, again, that milestone gave me energy to keep going, because I was like, I don't have to actually live in a prison for the rest of my life. You guys covered it.

And I think it's good to point out, Ashley, that your calm about that trip wasn't because of ignorance, because I think some spouses want that of just like, well, I just want it to be out of sight, out of mind. I don't want to think about it. That. That's not what you're saying. You're saying it was a byproduct of the health in your relationship, the growth in your life, the growth in John, the level of transparency had with you, that you were at a place of trust. And being able to trust our spouse is very different than just some blind ignorance that we don't want to know. And so, yeah, that's beautiful the way that happened in your relationship, though. So we covered a few of these already. But, Ashley, from your perspective, is there a time when recognizing milestones or tracking those could be bad or a dangerous thing for someone in recovery?

Yes. So when one, there's that whole mentality of, like, oh, I've been there, got the T shirt, done that. That overconfidence, which is on a faster scale, like, oh, I've been through groups, so I'm good. I don't need it anymore. That can be a danger. I have asthma. Sorry. And then I. I battled with. Before I got married, I was all about life. Like, okay, give me the checklist to be a good Christian, because nobody. And this is what we hear lots when we work with people. What were taught taught me how to, like, be a messy person and love Christ and what that looks like when it's in progress. All I heard was, purity culture, or before Christ, your life is this and after Christ, then this, and there was testimony night, and you're supposed to be just, like, delivered. And so I was under that deliverance, like, teaching that I shouldn't be struggling anymore. And so. So I really did, like, pull out the Christian checklist and make sure I wasn't doing any of those things. And. And, you know, when we talk about the dangers of just checking off dates for milestone, my addiction before marrying John, it was like every year I would fall off the wagon. It's like every year I would end up, like, relapsing with a guy and. And I wouldn't see myself as an addict. And so then when I got married to John, I was like, oh, I don't need those behaviors anymore. Or when I got pregnant, I was like, I don't need those eating disorders anymore because I have a baby. But I never really dealt with the root. I just had this checklist of, like, now I need my life to look like this. I need to look married. I need to not go to the bars. I need to not, you know, like, I need to not do these things because I'm married. But I didn't know for four years until we hit pure desire and everything blew up that I was still living very much as an addiction. It just came out differently as, like, Christian kind of, okay, things like shopping and, you know, being controlling and, like, that hyper vigilance and. And, oh, huge amounts of anxiety that I didn't recognize I had until I went through the process of healing. And so I had just switched behaviors, switched checklists. Like, okay, this is the checklist for being cool in the world, and this is the checklist for being a full Christian. But it wasn't until I got to the bottom. And so I think that's where that could be a danger is like, oh, I don't go to the bars anymore. I don't sleep with people anymore. But it was still such a disaster.

Yeah, I'm going to go back to what I said earlier, too. If it becomes your why, that's when it becomes the problem. Because then. So if your milestone is the length of sobriety and you then relapse, it's like, oh, okay, well, now I have to start all over. Or, you know, it's funny is that when you relapse, if your own. If the only milestone you have is the number of days, it is unbelievably easy to justify relapsing again at day one or day two when you're starting over than it is if you. Nine months in and so it's like, you have to understand that if you're leveraging at that, you know, at that point or that, you know, length of sobriety, that's not setting you up for success. But also, like, it's just. There's shame, there's discouragement that can come in, and that doesn't motivate you to get back on the bandwagon. But if you have. That's not a good word. I don't like bandwagon, but you guys know what I mean. But if me becoming more emotionally present or safe and secure for my spouse is my why, then for me, I still have something I can work toward. I haven't just ruined the whole thing. I can still work toward those things even though a lapse or relapse happens. So, again, yes, it can totally become bad if it becomes your why.

Yeah. What I was thinking about is that if protecting the milestone becomes more important than our integrity. Integrity or honesty, we're in trouble. And it's kind of like the sports metaphor. If a guy has, like, a number of games started. Streak. And you hear an announcer say, man, I. He really seems banged up. I think the only reason he's out there is to protect his streak. You know, he's maybe even actually hurting his team or jeopardizing his own health. Because, like, man, I've got 58 games in a row and it's gonna be 59. Even though I really should get help and maybe go see a doctor, protecting the street can actually start to hurt us more than being open and honest and real.

Unless you're Cal R. Ripken. Yes.

Yeah. And I think there's obviously examples like that, but that's what I'm trying to say. Tech. What you did, Trevor, that when it becomes a part of our identity, if I'm the guy that I never overeat and then I have a binge and I overeat, I'm going to be really tempted to hide that because I've wrapped it up in my identity as. Or I'm the guy that always gets his exercise in. I'm the person that always spends time every morning in devotion. So if I sleep in one day and forget, I might not tell anybody because, like, well, I don't want to ruin my reputation. And I just think that's really dangerous when those numbers or reputation pieces actually matter more than what's going on inside, because then we've lost sight of the journey altogether. That it's not about the milestones. The milestones are to mark what it is all about which is our journey towards greater wholeness, greater health, and finding our identity truly in Christ and who God's made us to be. And as we know in our faith, our identity in Christ is totally separate of our performance. And so if we're making our identity about our performance in any way, we're missing really the point of our faith in Christ and what he does in terms of securing our identity. So I think those are just things we have to watch out for, because that can be a temptation at, you know, day 30, I hit the 30 day mark. Or that could be a temptation at year 20, because now it's like, well, look how long it's been. And I don't want to have to go through that mental exercise of flipping the chart back to zero and how much I've lost. And it's like, well, if we're so attached to it that we may just have to let go of the milestone.

Yeah. And I remember when I was leading my first group, I felt that there was pressure building that if I were to relapse, I've ruined this, or I somehow am not gonna be a good group leader or other guys in my group will relapse or whatever. It's like, yeah, it's just not. That's not the kind of like, that's not recovery. That's white knuckle that is trying to.

And pastors too. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, So I think a natural question flowing out of this is, does relapse, if it happens, does that negate any previous milestones? And if it does happen, does that mean that we start over?

No, it does not make you start over.

Emphatically, no.

No, no. But wait. And no, it does not make you start over. And though there may be irreparable damage as far as consequence, because we're always responsible for our consequences. So if you've been working on a healing journey and recovery for five years, and then let's say you have a trauma in your life and you don't handle the stress right, you don't use your tools and you go hire a prostitute, you may lose your marriage, you may lose your job, you may lose something, but it doesn't mean that you need to go back to day one and you're the same exact person. Person as you were when you started. What it means is you need to do a deep dive into that relapse and try to get some feedback and information on why that happened. And John and I saw this happen many times where he was, you know, Sober for a year and a half when we first started because the tools were so fresh and new. And then he had these three relapses, like about a year and a half in that were kind of a couple months apart. And by the third one, him talking it out with his group. That's why group is so important. He was able to connect it always to when he was with his family. And so his performance anxiety, his pressure, some of his childhood lies were still swirling around. And that was such good feedback. It didn't mean we had to start. He wasn't in the same place as he was when he started. It meant we're a year and a half in. You had some relapses. We did a crash site analysis on that. And now we can put in proactive tools going forward. And guess what? He started doing well because he would have a plan leading up to seeing his parents, during the time he's with his parents, being aware of the lies he was believing, rewriting and reframing those experiences, hearing his guys encouragement in his head. And then after spending time with his parents, he would have a plan to not be alone, not isolate, do something that reminds him of who he is in Christ. And the other visual I can give is because I, I love like the science. I that's. That is what got me on board with this whole, like, idea that sex addiction was a thing is understanding the brain science to it. And so when I'm struggling with addiction or one of my many things I've worked on, I like to think of like, even if I mess up, it is that whole kind of metaphor of like, well, if you have a white dog and a black dog, which one gets bigger, which one's bigger? And it's whichever one you feed more. And so we hear that that with addiction you can have rats, like super freeways in your brain that you've created. And that there is neuroplastic plasticity where you can change it. And one image, like, I guess an imagery that's been, you know, painted is that you're running through a trail or a forest or a path that's beaten down. And that's the rut you've created through addiction. And what you're trying to do is go against and retrain your brain to beat down a new path. And so if you're running down the path and you're doing good with your recovery, and maybe you stumble off, off, and you're in some treacherous territory, it's still okay to get back on and start going and Then be aware of what happened and learn from it. You wouldn't keep going down that unbeaten path again. You know, and I know those who have been to our. Our live Pure Desire conferences, and they've seen my backwards bicycle videos. Justin, can you add that in the notes if it's. If it's copyright? Okay. That. You know how he would say, I had to first. First learn how to ride the backwards bicycle. So you did first unlearn how to ride the regular bicycle to learn the backwards bicycle. And then when he was in Amsterdam and you tried to ride a regular bicycle, he's like, wait, my brain doesn't know how to do this. And that's what I feel like happens with recovery is like, we retrain our brains, and if we have a relapse, that's our opportunity to either get back on what we learned or we're going to start getting our brain going in that same old rut that we used to be in. So, yeah, no, you don't start at the beginning, but it may have some damages that you gotta face.

Yeah. Now if we've been counting days, we may have to go back to zero. I mean, we don't get to act like it didn't happen. That's true. No, it's still been 6,000 days since my last relapse. And our spouse is like, I thought you said it was last month. So there may be. If we're into the counting days. Yeah, you might have to restart. But what I would say about that, it does not negate progress. Because what I hear for a lot of men like that I've worked with in groups, they're saying things like, man, I made it a year, and I've never gone that long in my whole adult life without relapse. So it's like, well, even if you had a bad spell or something happen and you relapse, take courage from that year and say to yourself, if I made it a year this time, is there any reason I couldn't go two or three or the rest of my life? Because you've seen you have the ability to do it. And that's part of. Of what I think we battle when we're stuck, is we think. I don't think it's possible. Right. Like, we may even say, this is just the thorn in my flesh. I'm gonna have this till I die. It's like me and the Apostle Paul just. I asked for God to take it away, and he did. And so I'm just always gonna struggle like, well, no, if You've had a streak and seen success. Maybe there's a setback, but take courage from what happened and then look to learn. As Ashley said, learn and grow, that the next time will be even longer or maybe the next time it will be lasting because we. We don't know in a positive sense. You don't know when it's truly been your last relapse. You won't know until you get to the end of your life and look back and go, wow, that date in August of 2023 was actually my last relapse. And I had no idea that that would be the last time I gave in, because I got up the next day, I looked back at what I'd learned. I restarted some healthy habits, I reengaged my group, and I just kept moving forward, trusting God a day at a time. And Maybe it'll be 50 years down the road you'll go, that was the last one. Isn't that awesome? So the truth is we're all counting back from some amount, right? And Whether it was one month ago or one year ago or 10 years ago, we all hope it's the last one. And so a relapse does not negate progress, even if you may have to start recounting. So that's again why I say, don't get so hung up on the number that you're on that you lose sight of the growth and the change that you're looking for.

Yeah, I've been having conversations in my group. I've got some younger guys in my group right now, and that's one of the things I've said and I've tried to draw this out, that, yes, I understand that you're discouraged that you relapsed this week, but remember that when you started group, you would relapse three or four weeks in a row and go on this huge binge and have no idea what was causing it and not tell anybody. And here you are right now. Yeah, you relapsed, but you also reached out by the phone that day. You let the group know what happened. You showed up to group the next week, you identified where you were on the. The scale, you circled back to your recovery action plan, and you then updated your three circles. That's significant progress. Like, there are people out there relapsing right now that have never thought to do that and have no idea that that's what they should be doing. And so, yeah, absolutely not. And I would say we've said this a number of times on the podcast that you can Leverage a relapse for significant growth and momentum. Not when it happens, because it doesn't have to, but if it happens, you can use that to then catapult another season of significant growth in your recovery.

Yeah. So, Ashley, as we look to wrap things up today, what are some creative examples or ways that men and women could celebrate milestones or milestones that they could celebrate as they continue on this journey?

I think one of the biggest ways I know Diane would say it all the time when I was early in, in my healing journey is that she would say her number one indicator that a woman is doing well in, like, Betrayal and Beyond and Healing from Betrayal is that they do share their story. And so, as scary as it is, I think being able to share your story on some level and whatever that looks like for you is probably the most fulfilling way to, to celebrate that you're now able to help somebody along with what you've received help in. And even just something simple that stays in the four walls of my own house. I remember years praying for patience and wisdom with how to parent my kids, and I was so angry, and I was reading all the parenting books, and it wasn't until I went through my own healing that I'm like, oh, this is all making so much more sense. And now I'm able to parent in a way that's transparent, without shame and without fear, because I realized a lot of my anger with my children was actually coming out of fear. Fear that they wouldn't turn out right, fear that I'd screw them up, fear that they were going to struggle because they weren't being obedient or whatever it is. And so I think when you can start sprinkling your story in and sharing it and, and feeling that kind of prompting to say me too to somebody when they come along and be able to give them a hand up, is a huge way to celebrate. And then of course, there's fun things that some of our groups do where they'll pamper themselves at the end of group or they'll, you know, I know one of John's groups, they did their last group out on the boat and they went to dinner and, you know, there's those kinds of things of you're celebrating that you're investing in something that's so important. It's not that, okay, check the group off. I'm done. Because normally we need to keep, keep working. But it's, it is a milestone that I did the hard work. Honestly, I don't even know if I had ever finished A small group curriculum because it kind of drives me crazy to not be the leader of things. Until I went through Betrayal and Beyond and then I. That was a milestone for me. It was my very first ever, like, anything Christian, like, book devotional that I had finished workbook. And so I was celebrating that, like, hey, I can complete something. I can commit and I can, I can commit to a group. And that was a celebration to me by the time my first Betrayal and Beyond group was done.

Yeah, I think you can do like, number of groups you've been in and or led. I think that that's a good. And I've. We even have Mike Maxwell on staff. Has this like, I don't know, this chart. He's like, he loves Excel sheets. I don't know if it doesn't make any sense to me, but that's his celebration. He's made this chart of like, if he leads one person into their. Like, help someone accomplish like freedom and start walking in health and then they lead a group and then someone from their group leads a group, like, he'll have impacted a million people over like a certain number of years. And I think that that's huge. And so I think that if you can track that, I think that's awesome. I also think a milestone is when you take some of the tools you've learned in recovery and you're using them in other areas. Ashley alluded to, like, we're in a group that it's just really just a text thread with a few people where we're talking about our relationship with food and we're using a lot of the tools that we use in group. We're using to that. And so we're thinking through how that impacts our relationship with food. And then. And I also think just how self care habits are now maybe a part of your life or how you want them to become a part of your life to then, like, look, oh, wow, I used to not take care of my body, but now I'm eating clean or I'm exercising three times a week or I've decided to pick up running, which I don't know why you would do that, but there's just so many different things that you can do with that too. Because we know holistically that matters, like what we do to take care of ourselves holistically matters. So I think you can do that too. That might be a creative way.

Yeah, I think Ashley already mentioned something that's really creative and that's going back and reading old journals or workbooks. I know I've got my first workbook from 13 years ago, and there have been times I pick up certain lessons and reread them, and some of my answers are consistent. It's like, yep, that's still something I have to watch out for. But then there are other things I read. It's like, wow, I've totally forgotten about that. I didn't remember that's part of my struggle. Or that you used to be a trigger, or that's something that used to really hurt me. And now it's just there's been healing there to the point that I've kind of forgotten about those places. And so I think that's always been an encouragement to me to see, yeah, I'm still in group. And, yeah, I'm still. I feel like some weeks on the faster scale, I'm just pushing repeat. You know, I kind of had the same week that I've had a thousand times. Because we all do have our patterns that we go through emotionally and the things that can get us down or overwhelmed or burdened. But on the other side, some of the ways we've reacted or the behaviors, the things we struggle with, I really do think change in lasting ways. And sometimes reading an old journal or workbook can really bring that back to mind to go, wow, I've come a long ways. Thank you, Lord. Thank you for what you've done in my life. I know on the celebration side, I've seen people do things like get tattoos to commemorate it. If you're into that sort of thing.

I want to be in that group. Let's be in that group.

Talk to Ben Bennett. Ben Bennett's got a story for everyone on his arm, and most of it's related to his recovery and what God's done in his life. I know couples that have taken trips. It's almost like they're re celebrating their marriage of it's been two years. We're a different couple than we were. And we're going on a trip to mark this. And I mean, whether it's just a weekend away or a big cruise, I mean, that's up to you. But something as a couple that you could mark. We are not who we used to be. And look at the growth that we've gone through. You know, there's the typical carrying around a challenge coin or a pin or something in your pocket. I appreciate that in different seasons of my life, where I've got something that daily, kind of even in a moment by moment can remind me what I'm working for and why and that I'm in a different place. So it's that milestone that's like always there with you. Because milestones don't have to just be that I get to the 10 year mark or the 1 year mark or whatever it is. It may just be a day by day reminder of I'm making different choices, I'm making progress and you know, an opportunity to pray and thank God for what he's doing and ask him to continue to lead you. And so whatever that might look like, a milestone might be something really small. Like, man, today was a good day. One more good day. Thank you, Lord. And however you want to mark that, I think if it's significant to you, it's going to work. It's going to help remind your brain and your soul of the traction you're making and to stay on that path.

Yeah, they're so important. I was just thinking like it's not about what we've accomplished. It's about recognizing who we're becoming. And I think that that' that's why milestones are so significant. And we know that recovery and like recovery from addiction, healing from betrayal can be just a really difficult journey. There are times where it's extremely difficult and it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. And so we hope that our conversation today helped you not only identify milestones, but encourage you to celebrate them because that is a significant part to maintaining that momentum and continuing your healing. So, Ashley, Ashley, thanks for just being here. I love that you can speak to both the. I love how unhealthy you were once with both being an addict and then also the betrayal side. But you speak from experience and expertise. Really appreciate your time.

Yeah, this is a fun episode. Thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.