328 - How To Find A Counselor

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 328 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick stumbo.

I'm sailing. Dr. Marvin. I'm sailing.

Oh, my gosh. It. If you haven't seen that movie, I have so much judgment toward you, and I just would like to publicly shame anybody. No. So what about Bob? It's one of Bill Murray's. I would argue the best Bill Murray ever. Would you argue that? Do you think that's his best?

You know, I'm not even that familiar with Bill Murray that I could think of a whole bunch of other ones. I mean, Groundhog Day is the other one. Yeah, those two.

Ghostbusters, Caddyshack.

I was never a huge Ghostbusters fan.

His character in Caddy Shack, I wouldn't.

Call Caddyshack his film.

It's not. But he's ground.

And what about Bob Are like. Those are all his humor. The whole thing's focused around him.

So good. So good. Okay, so we. You'll get that reference maybe later in the episode. Just so you throw it in there for people. But we had Rodney Wright, our advancement specialist, on to talk about. Really. It's a piece of his story, finding a therapist. But today's episode is really on how to find a counselor.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and in the movie, what about Bob? That concept of sailing was terrifying to Bob. And if you've seen the movie, you know, he's literally tied to the mast so they could get him on the boat.

But.

But he tried something new. He got into an area, a territory that he was really uncomfortable with, had a lot of fear around, but he did it. And when he did, it created a lot of excitement and joy and became some humor in the movie. And I think that's what we're addressing today when it comes to finding a counselor or a therapist, that for those of us that are maybe on this side of it, that we've done it, it's become a regular part of our story. It makes total sense. But it's easy to forget that we've never visited a counselor. It can be intimidating. It's like there's hurdles to overcome. There's unknowns. As we joke about today, there's all these initials behind their names, and what do those mean? And which ones are for me? And I hope that today's podcast just encourages people. You don't have to get tied to the mast to get out there into something new and actually find some benefit from it. That can lead to a lot of life change. And that's Rodney's story. It's my story. It's your story of just the tremendous benefit and help that came when someone that was trained in this area was given permission to be a part of our journey. And so if you've never taken that step, we hope today really encouraged you to consider it. And for those of you that are in counseling or have done it, that it's also encouraging to you of why I did this and what kind of encouragement might I offer to others? Because we bring it up a lot in the episode. Very often it's word of mouth. It's what someone else experienced, the healing that they found, and someone's saying, hey, you should call so and so. That can be the very thing that gives that person the final push over that barrier to say, okay, I'm going to call a therapist. So, yeah, great episode. Fun to have Rodney on, and I think people will get a lot out of it.

Yeah. And we had him in studio, which is great. So make sure you check out the YouTube link as well. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can also follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And with that, here's our conversation with Rodney Wright on how to find a counselor. Rodney Wright, welcome back. We have him in studio. Nick, that doesn't happen Studio right here. I know you're usually online audio quality suspect, but today it's not gonna be.

It's gonna make it harder to do any volume adjustments without.

That is true.

Being on video.

That is true.

Do I tend to be loud on video? No. No, not at all. Yeah, my mom said I was born loud, but anyway, you know, yeah, it's probably true.

Let's keep going. All right. Okay. So for some of us on the healing and recovery journey, the idea of counseling and therapy becomes, I think, a really good option to consider. But we've gotten questions, and it seems like more recently, I've been getting questions coming in on the podcast thread of how do I find a therapist? How do I find a counselor if this is what I want to do? And we know that this is part of your story, how you started recovery, and so wanted to just kind of press into your experience. And now that you've been on the recovery journey for a long time.

Yes, 26 years.

Yeah. So let's just. Let's jump in here when it comes to counseling. When it comes to therapy, especially for Christians, there can be an aversion to that or a negative reaction to that. Why do you think this tends to happen in the church? And why would we encourage counseling and therapy as an effective tool in this arena?

Maybe some of it comes just from the world of psychology, thinking that somehow the study of the brain or the mind is somehow, you know, worldly. We wouldn't think about that, about any other of the healing professions, like a physical doctor or something along those lines. So I think it just got some negative rap, at least in my upbringing. Growing up, Jesus was the answer for everything. As I say, your car broke down, just talk to Jesus, you know what I mean? Rather than call the mechanic or the plumber or whatever. So to me, sometimes my faith world was just very simple. And as I continue to follow Christ, I realize that God's help is coming through all kinds of individuals in this world if we're open to hearing it and seeing it. And sometimes it pushes back on our paradigm sometimes, if we're not used to thinking that all healing happens within the church, within the local church, within a local church service within an hour and a half on whatever time that service is. Or in my paradigm, it was the response time, Come down here and be sincere, to the front of the building building, which we called the altar, and it would all be taken care of.

Which was the last hour and a half of the service, probably for you.

Response time.

Yeah, for sure.

We logged some hours.

Trust me.

I tell people, I got plenty of punch cards. I've logged a lot of hours in church. If anybody needs to attend a weekend service, I got some cards for you.

I wonder if some of this wasn't just on the practical side, too, that for many decades the mental health profession and particular Christian therapists and counselors weren't as prevalent as I think we're seeing tremendous growth in it now. And so if you think back even a couple hundred years ago in our country, when a medical doctor wouldn't have been as easy to get to, it might have required time and effort and energy. And so you only went when someone was really sick. Like, everything else just got dealt with at home. And so I wonder for a lot of Christian families, you know, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, if some of that wasn't happening, like, there aren't that many counselors, we don't really know where to find them. So unless you're really bad, you just deal with it at home. And I think, or in the church or in your Community of friends. And I think that's maybe the reality of the kind of church I grew up in. I didn't ever hear anybody bad mouth counseling or say, you shouldn't do it. But the only people I knew who had gone had really extreme stories, you know, abuse, going through a divorce, kind of those traumatic big things that we hear about. We're like, well, yeah, you probably need a counselor. But for that quote, unquote little stuff like our personal sins and problems and struggles, like, well, you just deal with that on your own. And if we kind of grew up with that mentality, it may be hard to break out of the idea that, no, there can actually be a lot of health. Just like you said about going to a medical doctor. I mean, now it's common practice that people go to a medical doctor just for checkups. There can be absolutely nothing wrong with them. But they're just going in to see how things are going, get some blood work done. And what if we could make that paradigm shift with counselors and therapists? That I'm not waiting until there's a major catastrophe in my life. I'm just kind of checking in on my mental health, my relationships, the things I'm doing to move forward in my life and grow and looking for some outside perspective. And I think if we begin to see counselors and therapists through that light, then we can integrate it into our faith, into our faith communities, and not just see it as that one extreme thing for people who are, quote, unquote, really bad.

And Nick and Trevor with just the evolution of society. Just think about how much we've learned about the brain, the neuroscience of the brain. I think it's beautiful that it's all affirming what scripture teaches about the renewing of our mind and actually kind of elevating the value of that. And so 100 years ago, when my grandfather was navigating some real trauma, he didn't have anyone to go to.0 for anyone to talk to or process that.

Yeah, my therapist has said to me that really all therapy is, is just someone else putting language to your experience. And you know what I told him when we first started was, I feel like this is just gonna be me vomiting all over the table and you're gonna kinda help me parse out what is what and show me what's where. And that's not a really great analogy when talking to your therapist about the therapy he's doing. But I've just seen that, that it's something that he is able to affirm Me and has tools to help me process and ask really good questions. And so really it is maintenance just for your brain, for your heart, for, you know, your experience. And so I think that that's why it's such an effective tool is you have this unbiased third party speaking into hearing about helping you navigate your experience in your life. And I think that that's always beneficial.

And for those of us in faith based worlds, just see it as discipleship, if that label helps you better. Another mature individual is paying someone to disciple, helping you to grow.

Yeah, that's a good model, by the way.

Well, sure. I'm just saying, you know, because I think that really that's how we grow. The Christ in someone else typically speaks to the brokenness in me. And so when you recognize that typically we are the body of Christ, then typically we help one another grow. But sometimes that's not our spiritual framework where we see a counselor's office as being a part of our spirituality. So just again, that holistic approach to how we heal as people, I think you can just see the worth and value it sure was for me 26 years ago. That's my story. We can dive into that as much as you want. But boy, I was grateful for God to point that out to me, but I thought only broken people went to those guys. And then I felt the trinity say all at once, yeah, Rod, and that's you. And I was so scared. The therapists I saw, he was a sexual trauma assessment treatment therapist. So in my pentecostal world, that was just so way out of the context. But man, that was one of the really one. It was. It was one of the most beneficial steps I've taken in my life toward my own healing and investing in myself. And so if any I could say to anything, to anybody, it would be, you're worth getting help, you know, go, go get it. And that might be God's way of just stretching your way of seeing how the Holy Spirit could lead you to people and resources that would help you.

So, Rodney, what are some signs that you might look to to know that we might need counseling or therapy?

Well, I think if you feel like I'm doing the same thing over and over and not getting different results, which was my, you know, it's a lot of us for binge and purge, using coping behaviors, overwhelmed with anxiety or feeling like I can't really get to a healthy state of being and being overwhelmed. You've tried other resources. You might want to just find out somebody who deals with those areas and can help you take that next step or begin to take a dive into what's going on. And just like anything else in life, if the cough doesn't go away, check with the cough specialist, the doctor, and see what's going on.

I remember when I started therapy, I was not in crisis. I didn't feel like I needed it. But it was within two months of starting that then crisis entered my life. And so it was like. Was like God's gift to start this at the time. But I just remember feeling like I wanted it. Like I wanted to have that conversation with someone who didn't know all of the, like, small details of my life. And I don't rub shoulders with them in any other way that they can objectively look at my life. And I felt like for me, that was a good enough reason to do it. I just. I wanted it and I wanted to explore it. Because what's great is you can decide that you don't want to meet with your therapist anymore. You have freedom to do that. But I just felt like I want to be the type of person that allows experts to speak into my life, allows people who know more about all of the stuff that goes on inside of me than I do and can help bring to your point, some of.

That discipleship stuff, Trevor, I think that's. What's the word I'm looking for. That's a gift that culture has brought you where you see it on a very proactive, positive perspective. Where in my world. Right. I'm 56, so my world was different. It wasn't proactive, it wasn't positive, it wasn't vogue. It was like, man, this is only what the messed up people went to. Especially anything around human sexuality. Right. So I think that's the benefit of society continuing to evolve. The church growing, God's leading us to, like, yeah, taking care of yourself on all kinds of levels would be a really good thing to do. And isn't it great where you hear people going to get help and you're like, way to go. I'm so glad you're doing that. Versus I wonder what's wrong with Trevor or, you know, did you hear Rodney seeing a therapist about sexuality? You know what I mean? Whatever, you know.

Yeah. That's where I would say, you know, if you have a heartbeat and you're breathing, you could probably see a therapist. And we said that, like, everyone would benefit at some point in their story to sit down with someone that can help them analyze, understand. On a practical level, I might say, if you Have a difficulty answering the question, what things about your family of origin or your early development years have created problems or challenges for you in your current present day? And you're like, well, I'm not sure. I've never thought about it, man. That's what therapists are there to do, is help you understand the connections and the ways that your story pieces together. Because as we've talked so much on this podcast, when we can make sense of our story, when we can understand what happened to us and how it impacted us, even if we grew up in a relatively good, solid Christian home, as we all know, can be very wounding, we need to understand that we've been impacted by it in ways that we're probably still living out today in unhealthy ways. And so a therapist, a counselor can just be there to help us unpack that in ways that really are difficult to do on your own. The other thing that I would say, if you're looking at, well, how do I know if I need a counselor or therapist? You know, a lot of what Rodney said is spot on. But. But I would say if you have taken steps into community and to group, because we get that a lot at Pure Desire. People say, well, I just, I'm doing group at my church, I'm doing group online. Those are great steps. But if you find that you've taken that and you're still getting continually triggered by something or really wrestling with some unresolved anger, that's where having that expert opinion, a professional who can kind of look into the situation is really helpful. And then the final thing I would say that I don't know if we've mentioned is just if you're facing significant relationship disturbance, your marriage is really tanking. Things are very, very difficult at home. I just feel like no matter how much good work you can do on your own, if your relationship is really in peril, having a neutral third party, or even better, like we do at Pure Desire, having two neutral third parties, one for each of you that can speak into your situation is, I think, an absolute must. Because I always said as a pastor, I thought couples came in for care or counseling five years too late, that the patterns of unhealth in their marriage that were driving them apart were usually about five years in the rearview mirror. They just wake waited and waited and waited. And sometimes by the time they came in, they were at that point that it was irredeemable, truly, or right on the brink of it. And so I would just say, man, if you're having continual troubles in your marriage, go get help. Get a counselor to speak into it, because you really just need that outside perspective to work through. Some of the things you're facing.

Makes me think about what you say all the time is that healthy people seek help. And oftentimes we feel like seeking help is what makes us seem unhealthy, but it's actually the opposite.

Think about the parent that can say to the kids, hey, mom and I, or dad and I are gonna go to see our counselor this week. We'll be back. You're actually modeling something really healthy for your kids. And when you have problems, little Johnny and Sally, we want you to go seek help, too. You know what I mean? Rather than somehow, what's wrong? We're investing in us.

Okay, so you've already brought up the part of your story, and I can never remember what his designation is, this therapist that you see.

Oh, his title. Yeah. Say it again. Sexual Trauma Assessment Treatment Therapist.

Okay, so what I love.

I had to. I had to abbreviate it on the chat because I couldn't even write that language. I was so. Had so much shame around it is.

That you've known Justin for five years and you call him Jason every once.

In a while, but I know Harrison, his son. And Harrison's birthday's coming up, by the way.

Listen, let's get finished the thought. I have never heard you misspeak his title, your therapist title. It blows my mind that you can remember that. It's just. It's amazing. Okay, so you talked about that.

Yeah.

How did you originally find him? And how did you get hooked up with this therapist?

So, you know, it was interesting for me, Trevor. I was a young pastor in a church, and I loved God and I really wanted to change, but the way I perceived my faith wasn't transforming me. I'll say it that way, because I don't ever want to validate the life, death, and resurrection of Christ or who God is, or the body of Christ. Sometimes I just think we have a distorted view, and some of that's our own brokenness, and some of that's just how it gets handed to us. So when my praying, reading the Bible, more confessing to people who I thought would really were significant, that I thought were spiritually mature to help me, when none of that stuff helped, I was really at a desperate place. And I said to God, could you lead me to people and resources that could help me? That was my prayer, and I would challenge anyone to listen. Make that your sincere prayer, but just be open to Who God may lead you, it may be outside of your box. So that was my prayer. And I was sitting in a Sunday service wearing a suit and tie like good pastors do back in the 90s. And I felt as if a spotlight was on the drummer, the guy playing the drums in our church. And I felt as if the prompting in my heart, go see him. And I knew that he had led groups there in the basement of the church back in those days for people with sexual addiction. But I didn't have that problem. I just had a problem that was reoccurring frequently for over a decade. But anyway. Yeah, exactly. But guys, I'll never forget. It was just one of those sacred moments. And I've had maybe four of them, five of them in my life where you just know that. You know that something's prompting you beyond yourself, which the language I would give it is. You feel the Holy Spirit prompting you to participate in something that's beyond you. That can be very helpful. And so, again, I was just, no way. I could never go see him. That's for messed up people. And that yet I knew that I knew. So his office was in Salem, Oregon. And I remember going in, he had, like, an access door in the alley. So it was, you know, I felt like I was sneaking into a porn shop or something, you know what I mean? Like, with my hat pulled down low and glasses on, you know? But it was kind of like, man, it was just. It was kind of scary. Honestly, it was so scary in my religious bubble. And I asked him when I got in there, told him why I'm here. And I said, will you pray for me? And he said, no. And then he used a profane word. And I thought, holy Spirit, are you sure this is the right guy? I was like, john the Baptist, is this the one? Or should we look for someone else? You know? But he was just deconstructing some of my religious framework that wasn't helpful. He later said, rod, I will pray for you, but not right this second. You think prayer's magic, but there's your part in God's part. And so I found somebody that was competent as well as compassionate. That's a Bob Vandermeer line that I love, that I hear him say all the time. So I felt like he wasn't someone that didn't know. We went through some Patrick Carnes resources, and I learned about my sexual addiction cycle. And then I worked through all my negative sexual history with him, at least all that I could recall. And it wasn't about, you know, I like to say I went in on Tuesday hoping to be fixed by Friday to look good on Sunday. Right. And it turned into a three year relationship which was such just a paradigm shift for me about, oh, this is about growth and maturity, not about instant. It's about retraining the brain, renewing the mind. And I was really dealt with a lot of my thinking errors, my cognitive distortions about myself, about God and about others. We talk about that a lot at Pure Desire. So that was the work of repentance. That's what I say to my guys in my seven pillar group, hey, let's do some repentance together. Because I may have a, a thinking error that you can point out to me and speak the truth and then I can repent, I can change my thinking and trust the better way. So that's where this guy was really helpful for me.

This is where I appreciate, Rodney, that your story and mine are very different because yours started out of your own desire and then engaged with your wife later.

Correct.

Where I was kind of on the flip side that my wife was already aware of my behavior, was deeply wounded by it to a point that I was unaware of. How deeply wounded. And so we heard an offer to meet with a Christian counselor that ended up being Dr. Ted Rock Roberts at a conference. And my initial response was the same though. Yeah, I don't need that. I mean, yeah, I've got an occasional problem and my wife is deeply wounded and she's talked about leaving me, but I don't need. Yeah, right, I don't need that. Yeah, but my wife heard and she said we need that. I think you need to go talk to them. And I would just bring up that perspective. If your spouse or other people in your life that truly love you and care about you have suggested, I think you need that. I think that would benefit us. I think that'd be a benefit to you rather than getting kind of that self reliant. I can do this myself. Don't tell me what to do. Which I get. I get that reaction completely, trust me. But it is a moment of humility to say, huh? People in my life that know me well and watch what I do, that have seen me in my real life are saying, check this out, you know, that's a huge indication and for me became the story of how I got started. So all that say if you're not at a place where you're interested personally, but others have suggested it kindly, then there's probably something in there they're seeing and you'd be wise not to reject that, but be open to their loving direction and support.

Yeah, I think, you know, I think this is something that. It's so funny to me that we can, like, go online and Google how to do so many different things, but there's something terrifying about Googling, like, well, number one, help for sexual addiction. And I also think finding a therapist or a counselor. And I think that. I think for me was like, well, I don't know where to start. This is ridiculous. How do I, you know, I didn't have.

Have a.

Like, you know, God put a spotlight on the drummer at church and, you know, I wouldn't talk to him.

Sure.

But I think that what I've experienced is that there's usually someone you know in your network that has been to somebody that trusts somebody. And I think that that's, like, the importance.

I didn't know how to Google. We weren't Googling back in my era. And we didn't know how to just do YouTube, know how to. How do I fix my sexual addiction YouTube video.

I did the right to say that, but. Okay, you said it. Your words.

I'm an old man, Trevor.

But I would say that just find somebody. Just look and find. Because I think there's some. And I know that. And Dennis, you know who you are. You sent me this question on an email. I know part of his email was talking about, like, how do I know if they're, you know, and we'll get into this. Like, how do I know it's the right person? How do I know that they'll be a good fit?

Sure.

And the answer is, you don't. And it's the same thing. You don't get to pick your doctor most of the times when you go. But if you don't like him, you can find another one. But it's that you've gone to the doctor. It's that you're starting to get care and you're starting to get that understanding that's important.

So let's jump into that how for a lot of people, this is new territory. It's not something they've gotten much familiarity with. How do we go about finding a good counselor? And in addition, like, how do we know if we need a biblical counselor, a therapist, a sex addiction therapist, a sexual trauma assessment treatment professional. There's a lot of titles and acronyms. How would you guide someone to know where to start?

I think that's a great question. Think of it this way. You're going to need another Individual to help you. If you can just simplify it in that framework. There's a lot of different disciplines out there. There's coaching, there's spiritual direction, there's therapy. And within therapy there's a lot of different veins of how can mental health therapy, addiction, trauma, addiction. So there's a lot of different spectrums of individuals that could help you. It's not always going to look the same for everybody. I think there's a couple criterias that first of all just compatibility or that you feel like the person. I always say likability creates some form of credibility. So if you just can't stand the person's personality or the individual's tone of voice or they just, you know, it may not even be them. It's just how it resonates with you. It's okay to turn the page. But I do think competency is really important as well. My mechanic happened to be a person of faith, but I don't have to go to a Christian mechanic. I go to someone who's competent to know how to help my car run better. For some of our listeners, that may not work for you. You may say, wait a minute, I only go to biblical mechanics, right? Or Christian mechanics or whatever. I have maybe a different framework for that. But I'm just saying compet on what we're working with is really important to me because I think truth is truth no matter where the source comes from. It's either true or it isn't true. And I think God's the source of all truth. So I would just say that making sure that the individual is competent. I have found that not everybody doing religious counseling always has a level of competency. That's what I appreciate about pure desire as an organization. I'll say this, as a board member as well as a donor, I love to give back to an organization where we value competency and we're clinically informed as well as being biblically Christ centered. And I think that's really good. But those are two things I look for, you know, connection, competency. And does this seem to, you know, what have you heard?

Well, because I think that you can have biblical counselors that are also, you know, credentialed in certain areas and have that you can have that overlap. But I think when I think of this question like, as well as non.

Biblical counselors who are healthy and have that.

Absolutely, my therapist is not a biblical counselor, but he happens to be a Christian. And so. So you may run into that. But I think for you it's like, what are you looking for and what are you most comfortable with? If you are comfortable with going to a biblical counselor and you want to better understand how the principles of scripture relate to your life or how to become a better husband and serve your wife, whatever it may be, that's one thing. But if you know that you're experiencing depression and you have trauma in your life and there's significant reactions that you're having, I think that it's okay to look for a specific specialty or focus of somebody. And that's what's so great about. There's this thing, Rodney, called Google. You go on and you can type in.

John, put that on my Rodney's Tool page, would you, please? John?

That's a real thing. I've heard about it.

Exactly. Oh, it's a real thing.

It's almost like the secret menu here. But you can type in like sex therapist or you can type in. Unless you have accountability software, think of someone else searching that for you. But you could also do trauma, or you could. Whatever it may be. And so I think that that that is a really simple step. But if you know that there's significant hurdles you're running into, ask the question of what am I comfortable with and what specialty or focus do I want this therapy to have, and then pursue people who have that.

Yeah. The truth is there are a lot of acronyms out there, and we joke about it, and you may not know initially what all those different words and letters mean, but it is worth your time, I think, to explore it a little bit.

Absolutely.

Because as Trevor's pointing out, if we recognize there's. There's a specific area we'd like help, just like in the medical profession. Yeah, there's value in going to your general practice doctor up front or maybe get a recommendation. But if you've got severe foot pain or back pain or an earache, at some point you need to sit with someone that that's their area of specialty.

Exactly right.

And I think that's what we've seen just in therapy and counseling, that if someone has been not only specifically trained in that area, but works extensively with that population, they're just going to have a whole lot more insight to bring that. A general practitioner, though, they mean well and they're for you, they may just not have the level of insights that you want. And so if you find, you know, you Google someone and you see they've got all these letters behind their name, you can look them up, you can see where that training's from. And I Would say, and we'll get into this more in another question. But there are different types of training. And some I think we would affirm and say, man, that's really solid. But there are others, if you read just a little bit about, you'd be like, that feels like a very. Listen to your heart sexual health than I am looking for. I don't think that's the kind of therapist I want. So don't let the Just like in the medical field, there's a abbreviation for everything for doctors too. But you probably have figured out what a lot of them are because you know what you're looking for. And so take a little bit of time, do some homework. And I think you'll find that there are some pretty clear distinctions you can figure out fairly quickly and then go. The other thing I'd say is when you think you've maybe found someone. Almost every therapist or counselor has a profile page that will describe their education, education, their licensures, their trainings. And you could glance through that and probably get a pretty good sense of, wow, this person really knows what they're doing.

You went to Oregon State University? I don't think I can do that.

I think the kind of training they got resonates well with what I'm looking for.

Correct.

Versus maybe you see someone else. And the titles are like, yeah, well, I don't even understand half that. I don't think this is what I'm looking for. And that'd be okay to then keep looking.

And Nick, I did not have a Pure Desire group 26 years ago. And so for me, everything I work through, like my arousal template, we work through that with my therapist. But I would have loved to have a community of other men that I'm navigating this with and a curriculum that's helping me even understand that at a different level together. So, you know, for me, I had to learn. You know, I thought everybody needed a therapist at one point. Not everybody does, but boy, there's sure benefit. But if you can do both, if you can do group work and therapy work, boy, together, I think they can really be great.

So we talked a lot in that question about, you know, the kinds of therapists and discerning some of that. But real practical here. Rodney, what would you suggest? You know, not everyone's going to wait for the light on the drummer and the holy spirit to go talk to that person. What practical stuff.

It happened to me, though.

I'm just saying I totally believe you. And I know there's other stories. This is How I found a counselor. But how would you explain tongues later? Thank you. How would you practically suggest someone go about getting started with a counselor and taking those initial steps?

Well, first of all, maybe you know someone in your family of origin or your friendship or your work environment that is vulnerable enough to say, I sought help for a problem I've had in life. That's sometimes a trusted friend, someone that you feel like is vulnerable with their own story and really doesn't have any shame around seeking help. Those are always good people that I find that will tend to lead you away. You could go to our website, actually. Pure Desire is a wonderful way to begin to look, especially in our field that you can just. You can come and get a free assessment from one of our clinicians, and if they can help you, they will. And they'll also point you to other resources that are out there. So there's a number of things. Check with your local church, maybe in the pastoral care department. They have a list of resources at your congregation, someone specific in your area. We can do a lot through telecare these days, through zoom and all that type of thing. Check your insurance. I didn't have insurance. I paid $70 an hour back in those days. And that was a lot of diapers for those three kids of mine. So anyway. But it was worth the investment. So there's a lot of factors involved about where you should look and how. And again, not to under, spiritualize or over, but just ask God, lead me to people and resources. Maybe this podcast could be an answer to that prayer as far as guiding you to someone that could help.

Yeah.

I think one of the fears when looking for a therapist is, how do I know they're good or they're bad? And I think that the simple answer is, you don't. But I think that, well, I would say you don't know if they're good or bad, and it's okay to have an initial session and then evaluate. I know with my therapist it was that, like, let's have a consultation, let's Talk for about 15 minutes, and we'll see, like. And what was interesting is he said, we'll see if I feel good about helping you, and you'll see if you feel good about me helping you. And so it wasn't just like, if you sign up, I'm ready to go. He was also evaluating, am I a.

Good fit for you?

Are we a fit? But I also think, like, if and when you enter into that space with your counselor, with your therapist, whatever it is to not have these big expectations of this. Exactly how it'll go. I was just having a conversation this last weekend with a friend who was saying that she wasn't really loving therapy because she would get in, and sometimes. Oh, it's funny. I was just having this conversation just this last weekend that it was. Sometimes we get into the session, and I don't really have anything to talk about, and I'm like, yeah, and then what happens? And she kind of was exploring a little bit more, and I told her about my experience where there have been times that happens where I'm like, jacob, I don't got anything today. And he's like, all right, well, let's poke around. Like, how's work going? You know, how's stuff going with Amy? How's stuff with the boys? How are you doing taking care of yourself? And we'll find one. And then it's just like with Rodney. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, God, Rodney.

Wow, here we go.

But there are so many times where I thought, I'm just gonna make this passing comment and move on to what I want to talk about. And then 50 minutes later, we're still talking about that same thing. And so I think that finding one and evaluating one, like, just start sure and then evaluate, but make sure that you're not putting the standard of we have to talk about exactly what I want to talk about. Again, it's this. This is the visual that comes to mind. It's like telling a sherpa who's been up the mountain a thousand times and you've never been up once, telling him where to go on the mountain to get you to the top. That, like, he is gonna take you places. You're not really sure what we're doing here. Why are we going back down the mountain to go back up the mountain, but that there's. This person is an expert, and they know what they're doing. They have the training.

I think that's hard for a lot of us, is to let go of letting someone trust us.

But to your point, again, is it hard to trust a mechanic when you hand your car in?

Nope.

The answer is no.

Not Auto Center Northwest Coeur d', Alene, Idaho. Government Avenue, who is sponsored by Kenny. Kenny, thank you for your support in our banquet this year. We look forward to you.

We'll bill him later for the time.

Exactly. No, it's not at all. It's not at all because you trust. There's a trust level. You know, I have a mechanic in everywhere. I live honestly and I have their number. And if before anything I call anybody, I call that guy and say, I'm in Mexico. Can I do this here? What do you recommend? Right. So I just think you have to trust somebody that's more competent than you and knows things more than you well.

And that's some direction we've given people who call in. And maybe doing Pure Desire counseling doesn't work for them. Or sometimes we do have a little bit of a wait is to look at the organizations that have certified people you do trust. And so we direct people to ITAP to find other CSATs, certified sex addiction therapists. And you can find them located all across the country. And that means they've received the same training as Pure Desire.

Yeah.

And again, you can look at profiles and their bios and see get kind of a feel for them. On the other side, on Betrayal and Betrayed partners, we've recommended AppapSats. You can find counselors and therapists that have been AppapSats trained to be really betrayal sensitive. And so maybe finding that in your local area is a good starting point because I know both appsats and ITAP have a search function. You know, find a therapist in your area. And so. So rather than just going to Google, go to a page of a training organization that you've heard about or trust and use their search function because then they'll show you everybody in their area that's in good standing that they've certified. And that may be a logical starting point just to get real practical. And I know we've directed people to that kind of resource. At some point we really hope to have an affiliate network page. We do have some suggestions, but when you're talking about the whole country, they're kind of few and far between right now because we just haven't had the manpower or resources to develop all of that. So we're often just directing people to those websites and having them search from there.

Totally. And one of the things that you might find on either ITAP or appsats, their listserv is that there may be clinicians, therapists who are not Christians. And so that's an important question I think that we address in this conversation is is it important, essential to have a therapist or a clinician who follows Jesus, or is there value in having someone outside of our faith practice to be helping us as well?

Yeah. Are you asking that as a question?

I am asking that as a question.

Well, you don't have to agree with my answer. Let me start with that. I give you permission to think.

Done. Yeah.

Okay, great. Yeah, done. But in my opinion, no, you want someone that's competent in the issues. But I really believe that the incarnation was a wonderful gift when God embraced humanity and that God's truth can somehow flow through all kinds of individuals when their hearts open to pursuing truth and helping. And again, you've heard me say it, you know, I don't have to have a Christian plumber or a Christian, you know, whatever. I just want someone that's really competent that can kind of help me in these regards and that has taken God's truth or wisdom. They may even announce God's truth, but they've taken truth.

And let me speak to maybe some of the fear that maybe motivates that. Is that what I want? Like having someone who's not a Christian poking around in my engine, in my car, no big deal. But the idea of letting someone in, and I think this is whether it's legit or not, a fear of letting some psychologist or some therapist that isn't a Christian in my mind or in my soul poking around that there's that fear.

Sure.

Can you speak to that?

Well, it would be like a heart doctor or as we get older, there's other procedures we have to have done.

I think I know what you're talking about.

So yeah, there's a trust level. And so again, this is where you're kind of discerning. Just like if I had cancer and there were four cancer options for me to go get help, I'm going to discern what might be the best one for me. And is this a caring, trustworthy individual? What is their record state, who has been with them before? You're going to use some discernment about that regard. On the other side of that, I would really caution people who maybe would go to just a zealous pastor who has such a heart to help every human being in the world, but doesn't really have a level of competency to understand trauma or understand how trauma affects addiction, or understand the neuroscience of the brain or some of these things that are really integral about abuse. So for me, when I was pastoral care in my role, I always stuck within my education and my experience. Even last week, someone came to me and said, rodney, I heard you can really help people. And after just a 30 minute conversation, I said, let me point you to the Pure Desire website. They have trained clinicians that can help you. If I can be a coach and a cheerleader, you're welcome to call me and here's my cell, right? And I'll point you. But this is what I'm not competent to do. But there are people that are. And so I think that's just a piece of that. Good hearted Christians are not always your most competent people to really help you. So discern. Again, it's a discerning process. Don't you think so, Justin? Does that make sense?

I like how you're using, you know, use discernment and look for competency because I do think those are better maybe guidance than just Christian or unchristian. You know, in Rodney's story, he had grown up in a Christian home, was serving in a good church, had a godly wife shout out to Tracy.

Yes.

So he was surrounded by a lot of really good Christian community. So his need to maybe find therapy from another Christian voice was probably a lot less than if someone was in a totally different situation who maybe is from their family's not Christian. They're not in many circles of Christian friends. They may be a little more cautious of what kind of input am I going to get in this area of my life? So some discernment there. I know in my own story what the Pure Desire counseling team was able to do for me. Obviously they were coming from a Christian perspective and I was a pastor and grew up in the church. But what I had was a huge disconnect between a lot of my struggles and my family faith. And so because they were coming from a faith perspective, they were able to help me kind of piece together things that I had been keeping up integration, the things I had been keeping very separate versus. I think a secular counselor may not have had that focus. And could that still have happened? Well, sure, I just would have had to do it on my own. But I think competency is so important because the truth is we can get bad advice in the secular world and we can get bad advice in the Christian world. I mean, how many couples have we heard say, yeah, we went to our pastor or went to our church's counselor, counselor, and their first question is, well, are you giving him enough sex? How available are you to him to meet his needs? And it's like we've learned so many ways that that's perpetuating hurt, it's perpetuating addiction and not helping. But Christian counselors are still saying that all over the country. On the flip side, you can go to secular counselors that are going to say, oh, you guys should be watching porn together, that'll spice up your love life. Or oh, it doesn't really matter. I mean, you should encourage him to watch porn because at Least he's not cheating. Like, so there are viewpoints like that that are hurtful too. So you could be hurt in either way and I think you could be helped in either place. But there really is asking those questions of am I going to someone who's competent in this area and do I discern this is going to be a good environment for me?

Does this seem healthy? Does this seem helpful?

If not, then be willing to maybe make a change, which is kind of what the next question is all about. Are we ready to go there?

Yeah.

Yeah, do it.

So, Rodney, at what point would we say, is it, is it okay to change count counselors? Why and when would we choose to do that?

Well, change counselors. It might be that if you, if you haven't seen the movie, please go watch what about Bob? Bill Murray. Yeah, probably Bill Murray and Dr. Leo Marvin. It's classic. And such a good movie. It's classic. But you know, sometimes the counselor may say, rodney, I think you're ready for someone else. You know what I mean? Or sometimes you may discern, I've been here, they've helped me. Part of that piece is sometimes we just expect too much out of one person. This one counselor is going to heal everything about me and I'm not seeming to get what I need. It may be like you've done what you needed to do. It's okay. You know, they're not always meant to be there forever. So you might discern that it's time to move on because they've helped you to a certain level. Or you might discern that this isn't benefiting me and the juice isn't worth the squeeze, whether it's cost prohibitive or just time wise. The other time, I think a healthy counselor who knows their limits, or they may discern. I think there's. I'm going to have to refer you to Dr. Leo Marvin. He's an expert, something along those lines. So I think it's both ways. Just discerning and maybe you can get help. Now, a good counselor, in my opinion, will help you build a support network group. So you're not leaning just on one individual. Again, that's why I just say, man, if you can get counseling and be in a group, be in that healing community. Now you got six guys that are speaking, hopefully, or six gals that are encouraging. And there's different pieces of counseling that we can get from others as well.

Well, and I think there can become an unhealthy relationship that you're sort of talking about with A therapist where my health is somehow codependent on this therapist or counselor. And like, no, no, no, I can't do life without you. When in reality, counseling is equipping you to do life on your own. It's just giving you tools to manage it in a healthy way. Because even though I've done therapy for a couple years, my therapist has not once made a decision for me. I have made the decisions, but they may be fueled by conversations we've had or tools he's helped me with. And so, yeah, and we've had that conversation already where it's like, hey, look, things have died down a little bit. It feels like you got a good, you know, grasp on life right. Right now. Like, let's take a break and circle back in six months. And that's okay. Sure, that's totally okay. Also, you're not married to this person, so if you want to change, you totally can. Or insurance drops, or it's too, you know, cost too much money, whatever it may be. But the point, again, is you're having someone put language to your experience and equip you with tools to manage life on your own. And so the hope is, eventually you may not need therapy.

And sometimes, to do your point, we put all the eggs in one basket. I'm going to go see this one individual. They're going to take care of everything, and they disappoint you. That may not be on them. It may be on you. So adjusting expectations about, is this helpful? I'm going to continue or I'm not going to continue?

We already talked about a couple of big red flags that maybe after the first session you realize, oh, wow, this was not the kind of person I thought, if they told us, you just need to have sex more, that'll fix your problems. Or they told us, watch porn together. Okay, changing counselors.

Correct.

So there may be some of those initial adjustments, but I would also guard against being too quick to feel like, well, they. They just. They can't help me or I'm not connecting with them. I think sometimes, particularly if we are the ones struggling or we've been in addiction, we may have trust issues. We may be living in a level of denial or minimization or rationalization. And very often the therapist or the counselor is going to be the one to start poking at those areas and trying to pull back the covers that we've held down and expose some things to the light and talk about, like, that is not fun. I mean, I remember times in my counseling with Dr. Ted, I was Just like, I do not like this man. And I think I want to punch him. But, you know, you, good luck. I know.

I'm thinking about how that would have gone.

You stayed. I'm gonna sit in it, and I'm gonna be uncomfortable. And sometimes it was just because my wife would knew if I quit or walked away. So you stayed in. And, boy, then I start to see how much that was me and my reaction. And I think I've just heard a lot of guys like, oh, that counselor didn't know what he's talking about. And as I hear what they were referring to, I was like, well, actually, I think he was really calling out your stuff in a way that made you very uncomfortable. Or you didn't feel like he took your side. You felt like they took your wife's side and said, you've got some hard work to do, and so you bagged out. And I just would encourage you if. What's motivating you to change. Counselors, I didn't like what they are asking me to do. And others would say, boy, that sounds like a really good exercise, actually. Or, I didn't like the truth. They spoke into my life. And a friend would say, actually, that sounds pretty true. You need to stay. You need to work through trust issues. You need to work through commitment issues that may be part of what you're facing. So I'm not trying to say you have to stay with the counselor forever and always, no matter what. These guys gave some great ideas of when we might change, but I would also say just be aware that part of why you need a therapist is actually gonna make it hard at times for you to sit and stay with that therapist. So I would really recommend before you make changes, if you're in a good place with your spouse, talk it over with them. And if you've got a group, talk it over with them. And at a minimum, go to a good friend and say, here's something that happened with my therapist. I think they're the wrong fit for me. What do you think?

Right.

And if they go, well, I've been saying the same thing for three years. I think you should listen, then you should stay. But if they're like, wow, they. That. That doesn't sound like a great fit for you. I. Yeah, I think you should explore other options, then that can really confirm taking that next step.

And Nick, to that point, maybe a therapist will use language that you're not used to, and so the language itself will scare you. Rodney.

I need addiction.

Yeah, Rodney, exactly. Or Rodney I think you need to evolve, or we're going to use meditation as a way of centering you. For some Christians, those evolution, centering, meditation, those are, like, scary words. Right. And that's all a part of just. That's all a part of maturity.

Right.

Listening, prayer. Right. They're spiritual words. They're just saying it in a different way. So sometimes language scares us rather than just breathing and maybe trusting a competent person to lead us down those roads.

Sometimes recovery does have its own language, and it should take a little while to feel comfortable with it. So give it some time.

Yep.

I would just say, though, that I have experienced this, that a good therapist will move away from that language if you express that it's something that's challenging. Like, for me, there have been times where we talked about ifs internal family systems, and I'm like, jacob, I can't right now. I don't understand it. It feels like it gets in my way and I get tripped up on it. And so he literally changed the model we were doing and tried something else because he knew there was that block. And so a good therapist will do that, because a good therapist knows it's not about them. It's about you and your treatment. And so maybe use that, too when considering. Okay, so wrap up. This is a pretty traditional question we have, but just what final encouragements might we have for someone who maybe is evaluating? Do I need counseling? And then what it looks like to step into that?

Well, I just would say, first of all, if you're a therapist listening to this podcast. Podcast.

Thank you.

For you.

I can't. Yeah. Very thankful for you. And I can't think of a better place for you to invest into than pure desire. Because we're. We're championing your work that you're doing, and so we're better together. So I even want to get my therapist on the podcast one of these days. I think it would be really fun.

Absolutely.

To say, oh, Rodney was really messed up. You guys don't even know. Trust me, he's way better than you. If you only knew him 26 years ago.

But he.

Here's the deal. You know, my therapist now gives to pure desire and helps this work. Isn't that beautiful? Because he even says, wow, we need more voices like this in the world. Right? So, I mean, that's. It's beautiful when you can say, we're all on the same team. We're all trying to help. Let's partner together. But I would just, you know, it's going to be My simple one line, you're worthy of love, and getting help is a sign of your strength. And just continue to look for those resources. How God might direct your steps in whatever situation you find yourself in.

I think of the story where people are wondering, am I really saved? And the response to them to say, the fact that you're wondering if you're saved may be evidence that you're saved, because someone who has no salvation typically isn't even thinking about whether or not they're saved because it makes no sense to them. So the fact that your heart and mind are alive enough to God and eternity and the need for salvation may be evidence that there is something there. And I say that because I think it could apply to the question of do I need a counselor? If you're aware enough that there's stuff going on in your life that you're even asking, do I need a counselor? Maybe that in and of itself is evidence that you should consider going to see a counselor. Because on the flip side of that is, what have you got to lose, right? I mean, maybe you invest a couple hundred bucks into something that that session. Like, I don't think that's for me. I mean, I've wasted a couple hundred bucks on a lot of things. I mean, I signed up for a timeshare once and that was like, man, there went a whole lot of money and we had to sell it and get out of it. I look at that mistake and go, I. I tried something there because I thought it could be good for me.

Sure, sure, sure.

And it turned out not to be a good fit for us. And so we got out of it. And. And I would just say the same about counseling. Like, maybe in the end it's not a great fit for you, but you're really not going to know unless you start and look into it. And if at the end of the day it was a waste, quote, unquote. Okay, so you're a couple hundred bucks short, but at least now you have. Have more perspective and you may know what to look for next time.

So at least there's not an annual maintenance fee with counseling.

Like timeshares.

Exactly.

I would say there's an annual maintenance fee. If you don't get help, the fees start to pile up.

So that's a sermon right there.

I would just give you that encouragement. Like, if you're asking the question, maybe you already have enough evidence to go give it a shot and then just see how God uses it.

Sure, sure.

And I think that we all would benefit from Having someone make sense of our experience, someone be able to say, you know, that's actually really normal. Or, you know, I can see why you would respond that way because you and I have talked about how your dad used to treat you when you were a kid. Or, I mean, hey, have we considered maybe why your wife is responding that way? So it's just someone who can consistently put a new lens over your filter so that you can see what's really going on. Because we're ultimately after. Reality is what we're after.

The reality is we're really talking about a healthy relationship that knows how to help us.

Yeah.

And sometimes that's a counselor, and sometimes it's not. So don't feel like if you haven't seen a counselor, something's wrong with you. Sometimes it's a counselor, and don't be afraid of that. But sometimes it's just finding that competent, trusted friend that you can say, please speak into my process. And they may have resources that can help you. Sometimes people need financial counseling because they're really messed up. Sometimes they just need Dave Ramsey's book and program and they can figure it out. So, again, this is where I'm grateful for the work that Pure Desire is doing in providing group work and material, as well as pointing people to experts in the field of mental health, in the field of addiction and trauma, where you're not alone in your search, there's people and resources that can help you.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Rodney, it was awesome having you. Appreciate you sharing more of your story and being able to really dive into the front end.

Absolutely.

And how you found your. I'm not even gonna say his title, but that one guy who you met in the back alley. Exactly. But thanks, man, for being here. Appreciate it.

Yeah, for sure. Great to be here. And if you're ever in Coeur d', Alene, it's Auto Center Northwest and Melt's extreme grilled cheese McCarthy. Tell him Rodney sent you and get your discount. Okay.

And on that note. On that note, wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from one of sexual behavior and total charm you. If you or someone you know needs recovery. Here, why don't you read?

If you or someone you know needs recommendations recovery, then let's get you help. Call Trevor. Trevor's cell number is. No, we want to help you. PureDesire.org wherever you add on your journey, we want to help you take your life back from sexual addiction or betrayal trauma. PureDesire.org come to our. Just come. We're here to help you.

There you go.

Just look us up online.

Hey, give me this.

I just want people.

People to know. Come here.

Give me, like, this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share with others. Make sure to check it out. Philip said YouTube, lastly or not. Don't ever stop being healthy.

Ever stop being healthy.

And there'll never be an episode like this again. And this is. This is my last podcast. So I want to say it was great being here, and I'll never be invited back again. Okay. All right. Check Leo Marvin. Dr. Marvin. Dr. Leo Marvin. I think that's a wrap. Sam.