329 - Discipling Our Kids Sexually w/ Kristen A. Jenson

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up? What's up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 329 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

How can we expect to teach children to read if they can't even fit inside the building?

Zoolander.

Yeah, okay.

That was actually really good.

He says, I don't want your excuses. It has to be at least three times larger than this. And it's a tiny little scale model that they're looking at.

Just a humorous part of the movie. That movie is hilarious. That. Okay.

I don't know. Do you really recommend that movie? It's. No, no question.

I don't. I don't recommend it. I just enjoyed watching it.

As always, we encourage our listeners to use personal discretion on what movies they choose to watch. But yes, there are some very quotable funny lines. Male models, too can die in a freak gasoline fight accident.

All right, so I'm interested to see how you tie Zoolander to our time together with our guest we had on Kristin A. Jensen. And here's just a quick bio, real quick. She is the author of the number one best selling book, Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Porn Proofing Today's Young Kids. She also wrote Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Junior, A Simple Plan to Protect Young Minds. And she's got a guide guidebook for professionals. She's an executive producer of Brain Defense, a digital safety Curriculum. She founded defendyoungminds.com and is the owner and CEO of Glen Cove Press. She's impressive. And look, we had her on today, too. And you can see if you're watching the video right here, her two books, Good Pictures, Bad Pictures and the Junior version.

Yeah. You know, this is a question that comes up all the time to us from parents. It's a very difficult area of life. Like, boy, how do I have conversations with my kids that no one ever had with me? And in an era where everything is changing so quickly and the devices and the phones and the Internet and how do I protect my kids? What do I do? And I think Kristen is just really a leading voice in this area. And reading is something we all do with our kids. And that's, you know, the tie to Zoolander, that's as good as it gets, is he made a quote about reading. Today we're talking about reading books. And what I love about that is it's just a very normal activity that we all do with our children that we can incorporate some tools that. That help us have that conversation in a way that's not intimidating. We don't have to get all worked up and nervous to say, okay, Joni, tomorrow night we're gonna have this special conversation. It's like, no, just, hey, could we read this book tonight and have a conversation about it? And so I think today we unpack a lot of ideas with Kristen about how to have those conversations. And even if you're a listener and you're not a parent, if you're not a parent yet, someday, you likely will be, or if it's just not in your future, you're older and sing. I think a reminder that in a lot of these topics, what we're really looking to do is shift the way our culture thinks about a topic. And so even if we don't have kids, I think we're a part of that. We're a part of an understanding of how do we help kids grow and mature and be trained in an area that most haven't been up until now. And so, yeah, I think it's a great conversation. The books are a valuable resource, and I hope it's really helpful to those in particular who are parents and are in the midst of having some of these conversations.

Yeah. And look, they're very generous. They care very deeply about discipling our kids sexually, and they actually are doing a giveaway. We do have a couple bundles that are available for both of these books. And so in order to do that, you need to follow Pure Desire on any social media platform. Also follow fendyoungminds, that's Kristen's organization. And then if you comment on this post today or anytime after, let's give you a week. If you. If you comment on the podcast post, we will pick a winner. And you guys can get some of these free resources. They are excellent. Uh, and it's something you can start doing right away. Uh, before we get into the episode with Kristen again, just subscribe to the podcast on all the major platforms. Also, follow us on social media. And with that, here's our conversation with Kristen Jensen on discipling our kids sexually. Kristen Jensen, thank you so much for joining us on the Pure Desire podcast. Super excited to have you with us.

Yeah, I'm excited to be with you, Trevor and Nick, thank you so much.

Yes.

So some people will know your name, and as someone who works, you do things like creating safety and sexual health for families, specifically for children. We're excited to have you on the show because we have a lot of parents who listen to the show and people who want to be parents who listen to the show. And this is their story, a story of sexual brokenness, pornography entering their life, and the betrayal on the other side for their partners. And so we are excited to lean into your work and your experience today. And we have your books, which we'll talk about here on display as well. But as we get going, can you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got into not only writing books, but also founding organizations on protecting kids from pornography and sexual brokenness?

Yeah, well, I can tell you that I never planned it this way. So life takes twists and turns and, and keeps it very interesting. So I about. Oh man, 12 years ago now, it's been a while and I had moved to a new city with my husband and I have three children, two daughters and one son who's waiting for us in heaven. And my daughters were kind of launched into college and I was going to go back to work and I met this woman and she had a large family. She was homeschooling, she herself was recovering. You know, had been a victim of sexual abuse as a young child and she was so like, like her goal was to raise her children so that they did not have that terrible experience. And, but the problem was, is that they had the Internet in their house, which we all do now. And her oldest got into pornography and turns out they found that he was sexually molesting his younger brothers and sisters. So it was a large family from the 14 year old down to the 4 year old. And she told me this horrendous story and I woke up the next morning and I just had this, this persistent thought that someone needed to help the young children understand the dangers of pornography. Now I'd already known that pornography could become an addiction. I didn't know a whole lot about it, but I, you know, I had a psychology, a psychologist friend who had told me a little bit about this. And so I dived into kind of researching it. First of all, I looked for books. I thought, oh, I'm going to buy a book on Amazon and I'll just send it to her and she'll have something to, you know, tell her, tell her kids. So that's kind of how it started, how I started writing. Good pictures, bad pictures.

Yeah, yeah. Because I, what I gathered from even looking at your website is that you didn't find much and that's why it was like, well, I guess I need to do research and write my own thing. Which is so cool and admirable, for sure.

Yeah. I think a lot of our listeners are probably familiar with the books, Good pictures, bad pictures. And for those, though, who maybe haven't checked them out or haven't had kids yet, it may be a difficult concept to wrap their minds around. Like, how do you have a picture book for kids about pornography without it being inappropriate? What do you actually do? So for those that haven't had a chance to read them or use them in their families, tell the listeners, listener a little bit about the book, how it works, and how it helps parents have these conversations with their kids.

Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to model a proactive mom and dad who were going to start having conversations. And so, in essence, the book models a script in a sense. Right. And so the mom starts out with, hey, let's kind of on a Sunday afternoon, sitting on the couch, looking at some. A photo album and saying, these are pictures of our friends and family and all the good times. And these are good pictures, but there are bad pictures. So. Because kids understand black and white, right? And so. But there's. So there's good and there's. There's bad. And I have been criticized for not being nuanced enough, but with children, nuance is lost on children.

Yeah, totally.

Some big sophisticated adults think that you should be nuanced with children, but it doesn't follow brain development. So anyway, so she starts this conversation, she gives her son a definition, and then later gives him a warning. You know, here's what it can become. It can become an addiction. It can also change the way you think about people and the way you treat people. But I felt like the most concrete thing about pornography and the harms of it was the addiction part. So talk about the good, the thinking brain, feeling brain, and how it can become an addiction. And then what to do when you see pornography so you can see it, recognize it, you understand that it's harmful, so you have reasons to reject it. And then you have a plan so you know exactly what to do. So a definition, a warning, and a plan. And those are the three things that are provided as the. As the book goes through these conversations, it's mostly between the mother and the son. But then the father comes in at the end and he has his own kind of analogies and ways to think about it. And so it's a way to kind of model a proactive approach and begin those conversations. Because that it should never be like, okay, check, check. We read good pictures, bad pictures, we're done. My kid knows exactly what to do.

We'll never talk about that again.

You don't have to talk about that.

That's right. Totally. Totally. Yeah.

And I think your audience totally understands that, like they get that.

And that's what we love about these books, is that they give that framework or that model of what it looks like. Because I know a lot of the people I talk to, even in my own circles, that have been through recovery or healing of some sorts, they do want to have this conversation. It's not a matter of if they want to talk to their kids, it's how that they get so wrapped up in or so maybe that becomes the biggest hurdle. And so that's what I love about your books and these resources, is that it's helping people by showing them how to do it. And it's something they can do together with their kids. They're both learning how to have this conversation at the same time. Because I do know as a parent, sometimes I want to be an expert on things before I talk to my kids about it. And what I love is that this isn't modeling. You have to have it all figured out. This is just relationship, having a conversation.

With your kid, just get started. And that's what I wanted. Like you said, anytime we are unsure of ourselves, we hesitate and we put it off and we procrastinate. Right. And you don't want to do that with this topic because you know, you want to be the first voice in there. Ideally, if you're not, it's okay, but it's ideal if you can get in there first and have those conversations, begin those conversations. So then you're a safe place. I know that this is one of my favorite stories, but there is a nine year old boy, his mom read him good pictures, bad pictures. He went to school. A couple days later on the playground, kid with a phone showed him pornography. So he was prepared. Right. And he recognized it, he knew what to do. And he went home and he told his mom and he said, I was scared, but I knew what to do. So isn't that such a gift that we can give our kids to be prepared to know exactly what to do in these situations? We prepare them for all other kinds of situations. They need to be prepared for what to do when they see or are exposed to pornography.

Well, and it's so accurate what you say, that when we're unsure, we feel timid, we put it off, we avoid, we think that's a conversation we'll have later or that's a conversation for the School or the church. And what we've talked a lot about at Pure Desire is that most of us, a vast majority of us, did not grow up in homes where this was modeled for us. And so if we've never seen anyone really have this kind of talk, we don't know what to do. And even more so, you know, for the majority of us who are, you know, not super young parents, we didn't even grow up with the Internet or smartphones or tablets or computers in the home. And so even if our parents did have good conversations, it was a very different era and the conversation was very different. And so now it's all changed. And as parents we're like, well, boy, this is a new era. What do I say? What do I do? And so as I think about your books, it sounds like parents really could, yes, obviously read it with their kids, but another option would be just to read it for themselves and to get an idea of modeling this conversation. And some parents might read it first and decide, you know what, I feel equipped now to have that conversation. Would you say that's true?

Sure. And you can, you know, I think parents do this all the time. They'll open a book and they'll read it and they're like, oh, too many words for my kids. So I'm going to just cut it down, you know, or they insert things. You know, we've all done that with a bunch of other books that we read our kids. So you can do the same thing with good pictures, bad pictures, and just know that it's an easy, comfortable way to, to get started. I know. And just to know that, you know, this is something that you can start before you begin conversations about sex. Although I would say you should start those early. But it's just a comfortable thing because you're used to reading books to your children and this is just one more of those books and they aren't freaked out about it. You might be freaked out about it, but to them it's just one more thing that you're warning them about. Right.

So yeah, okay, so you've already talked about this a little bit in the previous answer where you talked about not just a one time check the box, that it's a starting of a conversation. And so what age do you suggest that parents start this conversation about pornography with their kids? And what does that look like? How do you encourage parents to start that conversation?

Right. So I would say that, you know, when I first started writing good pictures, bad pictures, I thought, well, 7 is probably a good age. To start, they're getting in, you know, they're using devices and they're on their iPads and whatever. And then I had parents come to me and say, could you write a book for a three year old? And it was honestly the first time a mom came up to me and asked me that I was at a speaking event. It felt like something like punched me in the gut. Like I honestly like took a breath and. But then I looked around. Every kid is on an iPad that's three years old or they're, you know, so they have access to digital devices. And so I would say I'm going to answer the question with a question. And that is what age does your child have any access to the Internet at all? And if you say it's two or three, then I would say you need to start giving a gentle warning at that point. You know, when our kids are toddlers and they're starting to walk and run, they can go pretty fast, those toddlers, and they have no fear, right, because they don't have their prefrontal cortex developed and they will run out in, into the streets. We have to teach them, we have to hold them, we have to teach them stop at the curb, you know, always grab mommy's hand, you know, when we're crossing the street, or daddy's hand. So we teach toddlers about other dangers. We need to teach them if they're going to be on devices, we need to teach them about the dangers of the Internet and give them at least just a very gentle warning, but an effective warning. So that's why I wrote good pictures, bad Pictures Junior. And it's just, it makes it very simple, comfortable, easy to begin these conversations with your young children. There are no bad pictures in there. And again, it just gives kids a definition that's very age appropriate, a warning and a plan so they know exactly what to do when they're in that situation, which you just don't know when that's going to happen. If we all had crystal balls, maybe this wouldn't be necessary, but you know, we just don't.

Well, and it underscores that our role as parents, and I think we get this, that our role as a parent is to safeguard our kids, help them understand how to navigate the world. And we do that naturally in areas like, you know, crossing the street, how, you know, we need to chew our food so we don't choke. I mean, just not being in water that's too deep for kids that don't know how to swim. And I think as parents if we could look at this whole area of sexuality and pornography not as some weird other than topic that we'll get to later, but just see, oh, this is a part of life and I need to help my child at all ages in appropriate ways, navigate what's dangerous and have them see me as someone that's on their side, not mad at them or punishing them. I mean, I'm not punishing my child by telling them not to go in deep water when they're three years old. It's like, I know things and I'm protecting them. And I think if our kids, even at three, four years old, see, oh, my parent is in this role to help protect me, then it just creates that conversation all through the years. And I also think as parents, we tend to maybe underestimate how quickly our kids can pick up on things. Real quick story in our family. When my youngest son was three or four years old, we were on a family vacation and we walked into this bathroom at a hotel that had all this kind of like over all the fixtures were overlaid with gold. They're golden and it looked really kind of shiny and bright. And when we walked in together, my 4 year old looked around and went, hmm, impressive. And that word coming out of aim, impressive. I was like, I had no idea he had any concept of that word. But it was not only in his mind, he knew how to use it in a situation. Granted, it was a hotel bathroom, so it's a humorous story in our family. But to me that is just a reminder that our kids pick up on things, they're aware of things. And if we get into this mode of, oh, well, they're just little, they don't really understand, we may miss opportunities because yes, there are concepts they won't understand or don't, and that's okay. But they're picking up on a lot more than we realize. And so using those opportunities, even at 3, 4 years old, to create healthy patterns, to create an awareness, to posture ourselves is there to help. There's just a lot of wisdom behind that.

It's funny you say that because your kids are using words like impressive and mine are watching, dude, perfect. And calling their dad bro.

What up, bro.

That's so sick. And it's just like, how are you learning this stuff? But they just, they pick it up. It's so quick.

Absolutely. And sometimes our children get in front of us. There are many studies to show that parents underestimate the negative experiences their children are having online and by quite a margin. And they call it the naivete gap. It's very well studied, and they just did a study a few years ago in England and showed that 25%, an average of 25% of parents in this study thought that their kids may have seen pornography when it was more like, you know, 60 over 60%. And the gap was even wider when it came to girls. So parents, some, you know, I would say, routinely underestimate. I think people in your audience hopefully won't be doing that. But sometimes when it's your own kids, you just want to, like, I'm going to do everything right, and they won't have to deal with this, and they won't have the problems that I had. And having raised children, all children have problems and all children have challenges. And. But, you know, if we can prepare them to navigate these things ahead of time, I really believe that's going to increase the bond of trust and love between you and your child. And I've seen this happen over and over again. It's kind of one of those things. I didn't know what happened at the beginning, but I've had so many parents report that they just, you know, even when it happened and their child came to them and they were able to talk about it and kind of debrief and help that child. One of the things that we have in both books is a process that describes how to forget. I'm using air quotes, right? How to forget those bad pictures. And it's a very important digital defense skill that kids need to have so that they can really curate the things that go into their mind and help to diminish and neutralize the bad things that they may be exposed to accidentally.

Yeah. So some of the concern that we've heard from parents, Kristen, is that idea that I might inadvertently introduce ideas or concepts to my kids that they haven't thought about yet, and then it'll make them curious and they'll want to go online. And that I might, as a parent, be the cause of moving them into more bad pictures or to pornography. And so I'm sure you've heard that from parents, too. Like, how do you answer that concern that what if I accidentally am the cause of making them more curious and wanting to see more?

Right. I totally understand that fear. And I think most parents have that, and I think most moms, I don't know if they're like me. You know, anytime I could feel guilt, I felt it right? Like, oh, it's all my fault. So I would say you have two choices. In reality, you really have Two choices, and that is one. You have the. You can cross your fingers, you know, and hope and pray that, you know, your kid won't see something until, you know, the day after you decide to talk to him about it or her. So that's one plan. And I'm telling you, we've been using that plan for a long time and it's failed miserably.

Yeah.

So the other plan is to be proactive, just like you do with all the other dangers and safety situations. You're going to warn your child and you're going to help set them up. Now, will you? Are children curious? Yes, they are very curious. But that. But that means you need to actually be more proactive, not less. Right. You need to lean into it more than shy away from it, because you cannot control how the world is going to come in. Their friends, you know, the Internet, whatever they're on, even being at grandma's, grandpa's house, maybe they're not protected there, the devices. So we need to set these kids up. And I understand kids are curious, but it's so much better if they're educated when they're curious. And you can kind of, you can warn them. Now, are there kids that, no matter what you do, and you two may have a kid like this, I don't know. But no matter what you do, no matter how you say it, they're just going to go do their own thing and they will be the kid that learns by their own sad experience. But there are kids, many kids, that will learn that from instruction and from observation. Right. And they don't have to learn everything by their own sad experience. So I think that it's very much worthwhile to begin early. Get in there. You start the conversations. Then when they're hit with this, at least they have that in the back of their mind. They know that this is dangerous. I've been warned about this. And these are all the things that could happen as a result. And they have a better way to make a choice, because how can a kid make a good choice if they aren't prepared with the knowledge and the information? They can't. They really can't. None of us can.

Even if you have a kid that you know, you still do that work, you still have those conversations, and they still choose to go out and seek things out, like pornography. The thing is, is that if you were silent about that topic and then that does happen to your kid, I know for me, growing up, we didn't talk about that a lot, and the silence spoke really loudly. To me, this is not a place that we talk about this. And so I think that you're still doing due diligence there, that even if they do stray into things you've already talked about and trying to help them avoid, at least they know that if they get to a point where they have questions, we've already talked about it in our house, like, I can go to my parents and talk to them about this. And what's interesting too, what you're saying, Kristen, is this is a perspective that we take when talking to churches about addressing sexuality in general, that people are going to hear about it. Is it going to be in the church or in the Christian home, or is it going to be in culture? And I think our Christian homes and churches, like we have to say, well, then we need to start talking about it. If they're already hearing about it out here outside of, you know, this safe place of the church or our home, we need to also address it. Because the voices they're hearing from the outside may sound very different from what they want, what we want them to hear from us.

And you might also ask the question, what tends to fuel curiosity more? Is it when something is hush hush and taboo and we're acting like, oh, we don't talk about that and like there's some big secret or when there's open conversation? And I would say, obviously the first, like, the more something isn't addressed, I think that's what fuels curiosity, is there's something going on here. No one will tell me about it. When it comes up, everybody like freaks out or gets weird. There's got to be something here I need to know about versus if our parents have had open, honest conversation, they've allowed us to ask questions. I mean, I think that's always a great follow up for our kids. If we're having these types of conversations at any age is just to say, do you have any questions about that? Because for those kids who are more naturally curious, they will probably have some follow ups. And for other kids who aren't, it's like, no, that's interesting. What's for dinner? They move on. But I think if we just consider it that way, like, I'm more likely to fuel their curiosity by silence or making it taboo than I am by open conversation. That might give us the courage to lean into that open conversation.

Yeah, I have interviewed people who got into pornography as young children and they would say, you know, I had these cues coming in, right? There was something I didn't know about that I needed to know about that, I need to find out. And since my parents were, you know, silent, you know, I went and found out. Kids are resourceful, and in this day and age, it's very, very easy. In fact, pornography, they don't have to go looking for it. It's coming to them. So you're right. The more open and normalized we can make this conversation. And also, I will just say this. If we do our due diligence and we warn them and we prepare them and we open the conversation, you're going to get. You're going to. And yes, then they have the decision. They will have these choices to make. However, what I've learned is that a lot of kids feel a lot of resentment because they weren't warned. And they get trapped into this and they weren't warned. And they're like, why didn't anybody tell us about this? Why didn't. Why weren't we warned? And I can't tell you how many people have come up to me as adults and say, I wish my parents had had your books, or I wish my parents had been able to have these conversations with me as a young child. And I always know what's coming after that. When they say that to me, I always know what's coming. And it's really usually a tragic story. So we, like you said, we need to do our due diligence. I think that's the best way. Because the other way is not working. Has never worked. Right. And in all other ways, like, you know, in Christian homes, you talk about a lot of things. You know, you prepare your child to make good decisions when they come into a lot of different situations. You know, we teach them not to lie, not to steal, not to, you know, all these things. But they have to be taught, really. They have to be taught these things before they can be expected to make good choices.

Yeah. One more quick story about curiosity in our home. You know, my youngest, probably was about 10, had heard a phrase at school that he understood to be sexual in nature but didn't know what it was. And he asked me about it, and I was able to put him off for a little while. Like, hey, we'll talk about that when you're a little older. But it was clear. It came up again a short while later. Like, it was clear he was really curious. And so in the best way I could, I described what the phrase meant at an age appropriate. In an age appropriate way. But, you know, some conversation like this doesn't feel totally age appropriate. But I'll use the right anatomical, you know, body part descriptions to tell you what they're referring to. And I remember as I told, like his mouth just kind of dropped and there was this shock of like, that's what my friends are joking, like that's what they're laughing about. And to him it was so nonsensical. But I think we were able to have a little conversation about why people would joke that way or why that's become a phrase in our culture. And I think in the end it was very helpful. And what I saw as a dad is had I just said, oh, we don't talk about that here, that curiosity for him would not have gone away. Like he would have eventually asked his friends about it. And now I'm going to let other 10 year olds tell my 10 year old what it is and how's that going to go? Or he's going to Google it, he's going to look it up himself online. And heaven forbid that comes up with pictures and the kind of descriptions that are in our culture, man. So maybe that was a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation. Maybe I didn't know if it was quite age appropriate, but as I looked back and it's like, well, the conversation we did have was way better than the alternatives. And I think that's what you're saying in this area, Kristen, is maybe it's, you know, it's not easy for us to do, but it's way better than the alternatives and the impact that those alternatives can have on our kids long term.

So let's lean into that a little bit more, Kristen, because one of the chapters in Good Pictures, Bad Pictures talks about addiction. And I don't think a lot of people think, oh, that's something I need to talk to my kid about. And so why is it important for our kids at a young age to understand the idea of an addiction?

Because we are, these kids are growing up in the most addiction prone society environment ever. There are people that are brilliant, that are working very hard and getting paid very well to create games and platforms that are highly addicting. Highly addicting. I just learned something about, I mean the whole, the whole purpose behind TikTok is to get you completely addicted. And they are working night and day figuring out how to do, do it better. In fact, they instituted a filtering. So when you do a TikTok video, it automatically makes you look better. Right. And so it's so important that we recognize that we're growing up, we're raising kids in a highly addicting society. So whether it's digital addiction, screen addictions, porn addictions, and all these substance addictions. Right now we protect kids pretty well from, you know, alcohol, tobacco, you know, those kinds of things. I would say most 8 year olds can't get meth, right, unless their parents are into it. But we, but, but pornography is the thing that they can get their hands on and their eyes on and it's so easy for them. So I just think that kids need to understand the brain and how it can become addicted to anything. And really it's all the same process in the brain. It's just different ways of inputting. But it all works on the dopamine, it works on that reward system in the brain. And so we explain that to children and turns out they love to learn about their brain. They love to learn. It's interesting to them. They like to feel like they're trusted with important information. So whether your child is confronted with pornography, whether your child is confronted with addicting substances, they need to understand, in order to avoid and protect they themselves, they need to understand the whole process of addiction. And I just think that, you know, every kid needs to understand this. I mean, every. We need to understand how to keep our teeth clean. We need to understand, you know, all these things, also need to understand how to keep our brains protected and functioning so that we can grow up healthy and happy.

Yeah, yeah, I know in my own story that's something I look back on, you know, it might at my teenage years and realizing no one ever explained a concept to me of what could be developing in my brain. I think the only pattern that Church has kind of understood is that, well, you know, lust can turn into pornography and pornography can turn into affairs and you know, and then you would ruin your marriage. And it's like, well, I'm not married and I think I'll be better by then. So you just, you kind of stay in a behavior because you've been taught that it's kind of a boy thing. It's, it's about hormones and lust and isn't that kind of normal? And just this understanding of, wow, there's a chemical process taking place in my brain and there's a law of diminishing returns there. I mean, all these were things I was 30 years old before I was really starting to understand them. And I do feel like what now I may have as a teenager still made a lot of the same foolish choices. I don't know. But like you said, at least I would have been equipped with an understanding and in a deeper sense of man, what I'm doing could be damaging my own body and my own future. I think I could have taken a different tack towards why this was an important thing to tackle versus just, well, it's a bad thing. It feels bad. I should stop it. And not really having any of that understanding. So for me, it's that idea of, man, if I felt that as a teenager, how much more so might it have benefited me had I known it even prior to that and had that understanding going in to the intensity of teenage years?

Well, if my job as a parent is to disciple my kid to the point where when they leave my house, whether it's at 18 and they go to school and they do their thing, or it's they leave my house at 8 years old to go to a friend's house, that they're prepared to navigate the world around them. That's my job. And so what I'm hearing you say, Kristin, is this the language of addiction should be in our discipleship, pathway or paradigm. It should be language that we use because this is something they're going to run into at some point in their life. Whether it's, you know, addiction to screens or TV and movies or pornography or alcohol, they're going to run into situations where this can become something for them or they have people they're in relationship with that struggle with these things. And so it feels like our responsibility then at that point to use language like addiction so that they understand what's coming.

Yeah. And I've heard people say, oh, don't call it addiction. Because then it'll either make them feel so ashamed or it will make them feel like, oh, well, I'm addicted, so I can't do anything about it. Well, I don't think either of those is true. Honestly, I have talked with so many people that said, once I found out that it wasn't like I was a morally bad person. I was. I had an addiction. And now I could see a road forward. You know, I could go through a 12 step program, or I could get counseling or I could work on this and I could get out of this addiction, I could at least you know, get myself in a place where it wasn't, you know, causing me to be so dysfunctional and so ashamed. And so I think that you're right. This has to be a part of, like you said, raising our children and teaching them what they need to know, which is our job. Right. Because you've said, when they leave your house, whether they're eight or whether they're 18 or whenever you want to prepare them for the situations they're going to find themselves in, not the ones you grew up with, not the ones you wish they had, but the reality, the reality that's out there. And the reality is pornography is being pushed to kids. They are getting into it at very young ages, and they are imitating it. They're imitating it on each other. It is fueling a huge, huge skyrocketing trend of child on child, harmful sexual behavior. And if you think, if you think it's bad that your kid is seeing porn, it's much worse if your child has been harmed by another child sexually because of porn. And it's much, much worse if it's your kid that's doing that. And we just want to avoid those situations as much as possible by teaching our children and continuing these conversations. So I encourage parents to get the facts, arm the kids and continue the conversation and do that continually. That is an iterative loop that you're always educating yourself, you're always educating and arming your children, and you're always continuing those conversations. Yeah.

So Kristen, you've talked about how important it is to help our kids have an understanding of the brain. And in the book you help them understand like thinking brain and feeling brain. So why is that distinction helpful for our kids to start to begin to understand about their brain?

Because it fairly accurately describes the two major parts. Now, obviously a neurologist would say there's.

A lot more parts. Yeah, sure.

But when you're talking about addiction, if you can kind of make it simple, then, you know, you have a more primitive part of your brain, the limbic system. We call it the feeling brain. You can, you know, you can also call it the wanting brain. You know, it wants. Right, Wants. It want. You know, you're hungry, you're thirsty, you're tired, all these kinds of things that keep you, that help you survive physically. You know, that's all coming emanating from this feeling brain. The thinking brain is this prefrontal cortex. That is this front part of your brain that is, that is helping you. That's really distinguishes us as humans. You know, we have this very thick, big cortex and that's where a child grows in the ability to have self control. That's executive function. That's where all you, that's where you learn your ethics, your morals. You learn what's good, what's bad. That's all kept in that part of the brain. And like I, you know, sometimes I'll talk, talk to kids, I'll say Or youth. I'll say, you know, as a child, we. Every kid steals, right? How many of us have. I did take the kid back to the store, you know, put it back. Admit you're wrong. I did this to both with both of my daughters. You know, kids do things like they hit and they. They do other things. They put their nose. Right? They do these things. And you have to teach them not to do those things, right? You have to teach them. But that is in the thinking brain, right? Those come in the thinking brain. And so it's so important that the kids kind of have that understanding that they have these two brains. The two brains work together. But if you give an. If you get an addiction, it's that feeling brain that's taking charge. But the feeling brain doesn't know right from wrong. It just knows what it wants, right? It's like a lion chasing a cheetah, right? It just wants to eat. The lion doesn't, like, sit around thinking, well, is it really moral and ethical that I go and I kill this cheetah so I can eat? You know, it doesn't do that. So that's why it's important that. That thinking brain is developed and in control of the decisions. The decisions about how you treat other people and what you're looking at and what you're bringing into your brain.

You know, as you're talking, Kristen, what I mean. And you just said it in the last answer to educate yourself. That I think is such an important piece to discipling our kids sexually is our awareness and our education. Because I've even seen this play out a little bit in our house where because of pure desire groups that I've been through and my own recovery journey being in therapy, I've learned about the brain and how it functions and ways to rewire that brain, that when I get flooded with emotion or I get triggered or I react with my kids, I can say, here's what happened to daddy's brain. This is what's happening. And, you know, I'm really sorry for what I did. There's no excuse for it, but, you know, come back and say, look, this is what happened. Daddy felt this way. And when I feel this way, I tend to react that way, and I don't think about how it could impact other people. And so that conversation with my kids can never happen if I'm not educated on what's happening in my own brain. And it's that modeling, but also that educational piece. And so what I keep hearing you say is that as parents we have to educate ourselves if we want to use your language, arm our kids with the tools they need to be healthy.

Yes, absolutely. And it is a continual process and you don't have to sit down and spend three hours every night reading books.

And whatever, medical journals or something like that.

I don't, I don't think anyone will do that. This is why I write children's books. Because parents actually learn a lot when they're reading good pictures, bad pictures. They've come to me and say, I didn't know this about the brain, I didn't know that. And actually, even therapists use good pictures, bad pictures for their adult clients. Because it boils it down. It's so simple. When you're dealing with someone who's struggling with an addiction, you know, you don't want to give them a 500 page tome, you know, and say, read all about addiction, then you will understand your brain. No, we want it to be simple. And, and so yeah, it's so important that we understand and that we keep ourselves educated. So I would really invite everyone to come and download our guide, how to talk to kids about pornography. It's a quick start guide and it follows those steps. You know, get the facts, arm your kids and continue the conversations. We have tips for all of those things and information and then that will get you subscribed to our newsletter comes out just once a week. And we will keep you educated. We will. You know, we just have an article up there that's all about do kids deserve privacy? See, with their devices and a lot of parents feel like, oh, I should give them privacy, I should help them foster independence, blah, blah, blah. No, I mean there's myths that we debunk in that and help parents understand a better way to mentor their children as co, as digital co pilots. Right. So we really strive. That's really part of our mission is to, you know, we have this website, defend young minds and to really put out excellent, excellent articles that will help parents just drip, drip, drip every week. Just read the article. You are going to become so educated and knowledgeable and it will really help with your parenting.

Okay? So when it comes to protecting our kids from our sexualized culture and the dangers of the Internet, which we've already talked about, it's out there. And actually something I was thinking earlier too that you mentioned, you know, we teach our kids how to protect them against like alcohol or tobacco, but there's like a pay threshold that's involved with those where pornography. There isn't that threshold. And so when Trying to protect our kids from the dangers of the Internet, pornography, sexualized content everywhere. What are some of the first steps you encourage parents to take?

Well, we talked about getting yourself educated, so understanding the business model of the porn industry. We have an article about that and, and how every click, every tap, every, you know, time you are voting for, you know, pornography and also getting, you know, you're talking about as kids go into a sexualized culture. I really believe that children need to understand the difference between healthy sexuality and porn sex. Right? They're 180 degrees opposite. So if you want your child to have a healthy marriage someday or just even healthy relationships, right. You're going to want to warn them about pornography. We have an article about that talks about six or seven conversations that you should have in regards to healthy sexuality and how the porn industry shows the exact opposite. So, you know, if you believe that sexual relationship between a husband and wife should be based on mutual love and respect, then you got to know that the porn industry obviously teaches the opposite. So if we can make it very clear in the minds of our children, you know, how they're very different, right? And that gives them more information, that gives them more reasons to reject it. You know, I don't want to watch something that's showing women being violated and hurt and degraded like that. That's not how I want to show up to the world as I get older. They need to understand that it's linked with, that pornography is linked to all forms of sexual exploitation, including sex trafficking. And so you don't want to vote for sex trafficking, do you? Then we can't vote for porn. So I do recommend that parents. So I used to say, talk to your kids about sex by the age of seven. And we have an article, seven things every seven year old needs to know about sex and love. Or maybe it's love and sex anyway, and you know, seven things they should know by seven. But honestly, we've had so many people contact us on our social media, our Instagram and say that they're five year olds and heard sexual things in kindergarten. And yesterday was my grandson's, my five year old grandson's first day at kindergarten. So I'm like messaging my daughter, you know, read these books, I'm giving her books, you know, luckily she's close by and I think that it's the earlier the better. And so you've got to start early. Get it, get if you can be the first impression, right. I remember reading about a boy who, I don't know, he was he had been looking at porn for a long time and by the time his parents finally got around to talking about sex, just looked at him like they were crazy. He's like, that's not what sex is. I know all about sex. And what you're describing has nothing to do with the sex I know about. And so we want to get started early. I think kids need to be warned about pornography very early. I have many stories again, a five year old's being shown pornography on the school bus. I say every school bus in America is a triple X theater. Unfortunately, because little kids are having these devices. I heard a story about a three year old, this was very soul crushing. Three year old who had gotten a hold of a device somehow and was videotaping herself undressing. And they were very disturbed about that. But then they found videos of her trying to have sex with the dog. Now they looked into it, they did police everything and come to find out it wasn't an adult perpetrator that was grooming her, it was porn. She had been looking at porn at three.

She'd seen it online. Yeah, she was modeling it.

Yeah, she was modeling it. This is how children's brains go. We are all wired to imitate what we see adults do. That's how kids grow up and mature into adults. But if they see porn, we cannot blame them or think they're bad kids because they imitate it. And so that was a very shocking story. But if I heard it from one kid, like, I can't imagine that that is not happening to other children. So again, it's never too early really to start having these protective and defensive, you know, conversations.

Yeah, I love the idea of a grandma telling her, the grandma author telling her daughters to read my books to your grandkids.

I read them. I read them and she reads them.

That's awesome.

Here's a book that granny wrote I'd like to read to you. But no, I really love that you brought up that distinction of healthy sexuality and unhealthy because I think there is a danger. We can get so fearful for our kids and we're like pornography bad. But that can branch into sex bad. Your body bad, nudity bad. Like anything to do with sexuality. We kind of give this message of bad, scary, watch out. And we can inadvertently create kind of these feelings around our own bodies and God given sexuality that's maybe very negative. And we've talked about this, that for a lot of Christian young kids, they maybe get a message of, you know, sex is bad, dirty and wrong. And so save it for the one you love in marriage. And then it, you know, this mindset shift of, wait, now I'm married and it's all good. We haven't equipped kids well to see the two sides of it. And so I love that you brought that up because I think we want to keep that in mind as parents, that, yes, as we stand against the evils of pornography and the way that people are objectified and so harmed by it, we also want to be able to lift up the beauty of God given sexuality and our bodies and our gender and all that God created to be good and wonderful. And if our kids hear both, then we're equipping them to make those distinctions, to become discerning and not just have this mindset of, oh, it's all bad, wrong and evil. But then hopefully when I'm married, as an adult, I'll figure out the good parts. It's like, no, we really want to equip them for both.

Yeah. And something we talk about a lot here is including our own story as we're talking to our kids. Like, you know, When Daddy was 11 years old, he saw bad pictures and I didn't know who to talk to. And what I found, you know, this many years later, Daddy was still looking at it. And because of that was hurting myself and other people. And so I think that using your story as a communication tool as well to educate your kids. And at the same time, I mean, this has been a part of my story is growing up, I didn't feel like my dad was relatable. I felt like he was Superman. And now he's super wise and is an incredible man. But I didn't see much of his brokenness. And for me, I can't relate to Superman. I'm the Clark Kent in this situation. I can't go to him and say, well, I'm going through this. You must know what that's like. So I think that sharing our story can also open the door for our kids to see, look, mom and dad are not perfect. And that also says like, hey, you can talk to me about this because I've been through this before and I want to help you not make the same mistakes I did.

You already talked about that. You have a good pictures, bad pictures, junior. But maybe give a pointer or two on how are the conversations different if we're talking to a three, four or five year old versus, you know, older seven, eight, nine year old kids? What are some of the main distinctions parents should keep in mind in approaching those Conversations with the little ones.

Yeah, it's just keep it very simple, straightforward. And we don't talk about addiction in that book, but we do do the, you know, here's the age appropriate definition of pornography. And again, it's just, it really is just a definition of nudity that focuses on the private parts of the body. And to that point about not shaming kids about the private parts, we say distinctly, you know, all the parts of your body are good, all the parts, including your private parts, they're good. But it's just not safe to take pictures of them and show them to other people. It's not safe to look at those kinds of pictures. So we kind of put it in that kind of a context. Again, we have a warning. We kind of use. The kids are used to being told there's poisonous things, right. Don't eat the tide pods. And there are things that you shouldn't be eating or don't get into the pills. And these are dangerous, these can be toxic, poisonous. And there's picture poison. Right. And that's what porn is, picture poison. So we use that analogy. And then again we've got a simpler plan. In the older book we have the can do plan, which is five steps. In the simpler one, it's the turn, run, tell plan and kids. And also we have five body safety rules. Because what we're finding is that when children are able to reject pornography, they are safer, much safer from sexual abuse from another person. Right. Hands on sexual abuse. Because they recognize, oh, somebody. And I, I heard from a mom who, six year old, they, they went over to a friend's house for dinner. The toys were at the bottom of the stairs, just temporarily while they did some renovation upstairs so they kids could run down, pick out a toy and come back up. This kid was down there, six year old boy, he was looking around the toys, taking a little time. And in that time the renter in the basement came over to him, showed him gay porn on his phone and said this is really fun, you know, and started to groom him. But he recognized it because his mother had read him good pictures, bad pictures. He recognized it. And so it's a child that recognizes it and then can get themselves out of a situation. He went right upstairs and told his mom and I'm pretty sure that was the end of that dinner. But he was able to keep himself safe.

Totally.

And I've heard many other stories just like this.

Yeah.

So little children unfortunately are not always safe. And sometimes it's somebody that's in the family Sometimes it's somebody that, usually it's someone they know. But if they, if we can say, here's a clue, if they show you pornography, you get out of that situation. And that's when a parent can be more protective. So the junior one is just many fewer words and just simpler. And if you look on the thousands of reviews on Amazon, you'll see that parents are just like, this was super comfortable, you know, very comfortable and an easy conversation to begin with.

Yeah, that's awesome. We've read through both of them. I haven't read them yet to our 6 and 3 year old, but it's on our to do list. Very soon my wife and I, as school has like started up and everything.

Oh, it's a good time.

And well, and what's interesting too is my son, my 6 year old goes to a Christian school. But I'm not gonna allow myself to be naive that conversations can't happen at schools like that too. So that's definitely something to consider. And you know, as you were sharing, Kristen, I just had a conversation last night with my wife where my 6 year old for whatever reason has been touching my wife's chest just like playfully, like pushing her, tapping her, things like that. And of course he has no idea what he's doing. He's not being sexual, he's just being a goofy six year old. But she had that conversation of like, you know, please don't touch mommy's chest. Why? Because those are private parts for girls. Why? You know, all those questions. But my wife was able to just have this like, we respect other people's bodies and we don't put our hands on other people's bodies in these ways. And one of the things we're trying to figure out now is I want my kid to know that like later in life when you're married and you're, you know, your wife gives you permission to put your hands on her body, it's totally fine. You know, it's not that you can't ever touch these body parts in someone else, but right now it's not appropriate right now it's not something that's.

You teach your child. Yeah. As you teach your son about, you know, sexual intimacy, then you can say there's a time and a place and you can, I'm sure you can come up with some other analogies of, you know, would this be appropriate in this situation? No, it would not. So there are times that are appropriate and there are situations that are appropriate. And so I think that those conversations can grow out of, you know, these conversations that we have. And again, being able to teach your child, there's so much that they need to learn and you're there to teach them and you're doing a great job. I think that's awesome that you're having all those conversations with your children at such a young age.

Yeah, yeah. I think I like what you said there about teaching our children that parts of our body have purposes and that God made those purposes. And the purposes are good. And when we use our body for the purposes God created, it leads to good things. And we can make that analogy with our hands and our feet that like God made our feet to walk on. And could you imagine trying to walk on your hands? That's very hard, very difficult to do. And in the same way that our private parts have purposes and if that concept can get into our kids minds, oh, I want to use my body parts for the purposes God designed them for, then I think we're equipping them for success and for those later conversations. So. Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

Perfect. I'm going to expect a book pretty soon. Nick, that sounds really good.

Yeah, we'll work on it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I hadn't thought of being a children's author.

Yeah, well, we'll come to you for some forward or some endorsement stuff later. But you just. Verbal contract will make it happen now. But what are some other resources that parents who want to protect their kids from? Porn, the sexualized culture. What are other resources that you recommend for them that they should be aware of?

Yeah, well, besides the articles on our website and our guides, we have a wonderful guide. We have several guides about. One about helping kids learn the red flags of child abuse. We have wonderful guide like help. You know, my, my kids saw porn now what? And that is an ebook that is a compilation of our best advice from therapists and from our own experiences. And how do you, you know, if you find out that this has happened, what do you do? So we have a smart plan. So S stands for stay calm. M stands for make a plan and it goes on. And so that, that guide is a really helpful guide. I think a smart parent would want to be prepared. So definitely check that out. We have a brain defense digital safety digital curriculum. So it's video based and you can teach it in the home. There are five lessons, but a lot of people break them up into 10 lessons or 11 videos. And thankfully it's not taught by me. It's taught by the brain gang. And these are six teens that are Very positive role models. They're funny in appropriate ways and the kids just love them. It's for again, ages 7 to 11, even 5 and 6 year olds can get a lot out of it. It's a broader, more comprehensive approach to digital safety. So not just porn but habits, good digital habits. What to do when you there's bullying, if you see bullying or if it happens to you, what to do. And also you know some things about predators on oh, that's become such a huge thing. And and then just how to be a kind and honest good digital citizen. So that's all in the brain defense digital safety. You can look at on our website about that. It's a one time fee, it's very reasonable. So yeah, check that out. And again, just continue with us. We are producing great content all the time on our social channels, Instagram, Facebook and X and LinkedIn. So yeah, check us out there as well.

Yeah, like in so many areas of life, it's when we know what the resources are, when we use the tools, it really does make a difference that we don't have to do this alone as parents or grandparents. There's people that have really done their work and studied and have produced resources that are being used very effectively in homes around the country and probably around the world. And so Kristen, we're just so thrilled to have had the chance to get to chat with you today. I'm sure everyone is taking something out of this conversation to work on in their own home. The website is defendyoungminds.com and the books are Good Pictures Bad Pictures and Good Pictures Bad Pictures Junior. We highly recommend them. Are there any other ways that our audience could keep track of you and your work, Kristin, if they want to engage more and be aware of what's coming next?

Yeah, well, there's always, like I said, our social media, Instagram and Facebook, we've got good communities on that. We also have a Facebook group where parents can get in there and ask for questions and get answers. And also I just wanted to mention one other book we have. It's the Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Guidebook for Counseling Kids. And if you know therapists or anybody that counsels kids, these are 15 therapeutic interventions that and their activities. But let me tell you, parents can use this as well. They basically take Good Pictures, Bad Pictures and just do it. Really help to apply the principles in those books. And one more thing, Good Pictures Bad Pictures Junior we have a play guide that goes with this book that you can get, you can download for free from our website. If you don't see the QR code on the book, it's good pictures. It's defend your minds.com forward/junior for junior bonus. And so you can get that it was developed by play therapists and it really helps use stuffed animals and you really play out again. It's really trying to help those children solidify the concept in their minds. So it's not just a reading of the book. It's really kind of helping those children internalize the messages that are in the books.

Kristin, this has been great. I just feel like going back to some of the words you said earlier, that the plan is educate yourself, arm your kids, and then continue having the conversation. And I know that our conversation right now is going to help parents do that and even those who are listening right now who don't have kids yet. The better you educate yourself and prepare yourself to arm your kids when you do have them, the better. Kristen, we love your resources, we love the work that you're doing, and we really appreciate your time being with us today. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Trevor, Nick, Appreciate it.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from A1 is sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.