330 - Stories From The Church: Eastview Christian Church

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 330 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, my noisy co host over there, Nick Stumbo.

Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation.

It's. It's not, but it sounds like a.

Liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

I mean, you're using your.

I don't know what else happens in the quote.

I mean, it sounds like you're doing your jfk, but you're not. Who is that, Nick?

Well, you know who it is, right?

Yes.

Okay, good. Yeah, that's. I mean, what I assume from the couple of tapes I've heard that's Abraham Lincoln doing the famous.

Is that your. What's his name that played him in the Lincoln movie? Anybody? Anybody? Daniel Day Lewis? Is that your Daniel Day Lewis?

I've never seen the movie, so I couldn't tell you.

It's so good. It's so good. Okay, well, I. Then that's the Gettysburg Address.

It is, correct, yes.

So tie in the Gettysburg Address to our episode today. Your JFK doing the Gettysburg Address. Into our episode, we had Stuart Blade and Cooper Smith, who are two pastors at East View Christian Church in Normal, Illinois. And we had another episode. We talked to them about stories from the church.

And by the way, I think a JFK would be a lot more nasally than that. That's more the deep Lincoln resonance. As you hopefully know, Abraham Lincoln is from Illinois. So there's one connection. There we go. But another connection I was thinking about, I've heard that Lincoln wrote a lot of that, like on a little notepad on his way in the carriage to the address. It wasn't in the moment, something he thought of as that particularly inspir. And yet for some reason, it's become kind of this monumental speech from the war that now kids in, like my daughter in eighth grade had to memorize it and was part of a school assignment. And we hear it everywhere. And I think that's what stood out to me a lot in today's conversation is you've got two guys that just got involved in pure desire groups that were already functioning at their church because of God's story in their lives and probably at the time had no idea the significance that was going to take on as God would use them and their story to become part of what was happening at the church. And now, several years later, they're both a part of helping lead groups and raise up new leaders and be a part of creating that culture in their church. And I think it's a testimony that a lot of us need to hear. Because in any significant moment, especially in this area of sexual addiction and recovery, the particular moments maybe don't seem all that significant or special. You know, when I choose to take ownership of a relapse, or I write up my first recovery action plan and share it with my spouse, or I commit to my three circles tool, all of those things in the moment can just feel like, well, it's just part of the process. And yet we look back and it's some of those moments that God uses in deeply significant ways in our story and in the same regard, in our church's story. So those small steps that we take really can become a part of the story of what God wants to do in our church. And I think we get to hear that a lot from these guys today at East View.

Probably one of your better intros and connections.

Well done.

All right. Yeah, glad to hear that.

It is a great time.

It sounds like you didn't think it was one of my better imitations, though, and that's okay.

Hey, that's not what I said. Take what I was saying at face value. Before we get into our time with Stuart and Cooper, who? You're gonna love them, they're great. Subscribe to the podcast. Also, hey, share this episode on social media with somebody. Maybe text the link to somebody, I don't know, encourage somebody today that they can bring pure desire to their church. Also, follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi on all the major platforms. And with that, here is another episode in our new series, Stories from the Church with Stuart Blade and Cooper Smith of East View Christian Church. Stuart Blade and Cooper Smith, thanks for being with us, guys. And for the first time on the podcast, appreciate you guys being with us.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Good to be here.

Okay, so you guys are pastors at East View Christian Church. And where is East View Christian Church for our listeners?

It's in Normal, Illinois. We're like two hours south of Chicago. 155.

That's what it's called. Normal.

Just a normal.

That is correct. Normal church.

Oh, my gosh. That's amazing. Well, today we're continuing our series called Stories from the Church. You guys are the second episode in this kind of ongoing series and we're gonna explore you guys experience at East View of implementing Pure Desire groups and really talking about it from the front and the culture and all that you guys have experienced in this. And so again for you guys and for our listeners, this is an episode where we're trying to show everyone that it's not perfect, show that this kind of implementation doesn't always work super clean or smoothly, but it is something that's worth the effort. So let's just jump in really quick here and how about you guys established who you are, what role you have and how long you've been at East View.

So my name is Cooper Smith. My role at the church is the high school worship pastor. But I've been, I'm just starting, I'm in my fifth year on staff now, but I actually grew up at this church as a pastor's kid and so I've been here at the church since I was three and kind of grew up going to this church and growing up through the youth group and getting to pour back into the ministries that shaped me. And so, but part of my job too is like I've been so like today I'll be able to talk a lot from the student perspective and our student groups and kind of the work we've done there.

So yeah. So then my journey with this church is my wife and I started going here in 2012 after our discovery and ended up finding myself at a pastor's office where I thought I was would experience a lot of shame. And I actually got the opposite and he connected me with an accountability partner. And then in 2013 I found myself with my accountability partner leading a freshman group of boys for small groups. And that is how I got to know Cooper Smith. Cooper was in my small group through high school from his freshman to senior year.

That's cool.

And that's just one of those cool things that we where this relationship has continued. So I was a full time firefighter for 14 years and then I ended up resigning from the fire department and came here full time in 2019 and I serve as the associate pastor of small groups here at the church.

So today we just want to get into the groups at East View Church. So talk a little bit about how did the church first become aware of Pure Desire or start using Pure Desire resources. When did that happen? How? Give us kind of an overview of that.

Yeah, that's honestly a great question. And we did some research to try and locate and the best I can do is I think 20 years ago somebody came and found out about Pure Desire and then a volunteer just started launching The Conquer series group. It wasn't long after that they started Seven Pillars. Years after that Betrayal and Beyond started. But essentially those were part of our care group model. We had care groups on Thursday night and Betrayal and Beyond and Seven Pillars and the Conqueror series were all a part of that care group model. Yeah.

That's super cool. I know it was something that, you know, that many years ago it must have been something where you guys connected with Dr. Ted and somebody got, you know, at that point, what wasn't it? For men only and for women only. And so. Yeah, that's cool to hear the history there. I'm just curious, Cooper, growing up in the church, was it something that you remember as a kid hearing about from the stage or knowing about ministries like this?

Yeah, no, that's, that's a great question. So I, this was something that, a part, a huge part of my story when I was a student and I think and there were, there were opportunities for me to, to share and to be open and to experience grace and to feel like I'm not the only one, like I'm not alone. But there weren't, there weren't like, there weren't groups like that. We had that when I was in high school. And so from there we've recently been able to. So about a year and a half ago, I don't exactly remember what prompted this. I think this is something that I've been passionate about since it's part of my story. And so we had these things called Fight Nights about a year and a half ago and Stuart was really helpful and really helped us get these going. But we were re hosted high school students, all guys and girls and we had them show up to our sanctuary on a Sunday night in our, at our church and we showed the, the brain. Was it Brain Heart World from Fight the Drug?

Yeah.

And we broke off into groups from there. Guys and girl, guys groups, girls groups separately with leaders. And then that would. That kind of started the conversation. And then since then we've done some smart, we've done some SI 101 groups living free. And then we're hopefully going to be. We're in the process of adding groups for the, for high school girls as well. And so we've definitely had lots of bumps along the way and But I'm excited for what God's going to do through these groups or continue through these groups.

Yeah. So let's get into some of those bumps. I mean I think that knowing the church and the culture, this is not a topic that it's like, it gets brought up and everyone's like, oh, yep, we're going to do that. Everyone, let's just jump on board. So what were some of the initial hurdles that East View ran into when starting to implement language about sexual brokenness and sexual health, betrayal, trauma, and then really starting groups too? What were those hurdles?

Yeah, I'll speak into this a little bit. Just going back to that original question. That's one of our hurdles is just getting advertisement out, getting the word out about these groups. And one of the things that we've been doing recently to overcome that is I've just been going and visiting counseling offices and ask, hey, do you have like, like a team meeting time that you guys come together and then like come to find out, they're like, yeah, we do. On Monday at noon, we all just have this big meeting. And so I, I just asked, can I get 20 minutes of that time and going and just announcing our groups, letting them know the types of groups that we have. They get to know me, get to know my heart. And that has been one of the most. I mean, sadly, one lady has been attending our church for 20 years, was a counselor at this office, and she's like, why is this the first time I'm hearing about these groups? And that's just like, that's kind of like one of those hurdles that we have of just how do we continue to beat the drum to get the word out about these. The other thing that we've had a lot of success with, and I don't know if these are going to show, but like we got these business cards printed up. And so it's, it's one for every group. So we currently we have seven Pillars, Betrayal and Beyond, Hope for Men Unraveled and the Conqueror series. And for a really cheap price, we got business cards made for every single one. And we've been dropping those off at counselors offices in town as well.

Wow.

Just because we believe the church is the, the place where you can find healing and in the group context with these, with this material, we've just seen that happen time and time again. Coop, anything for you.

Yeah. And again, like I, I just kind of speak from a student perspective. So we have, we have a, we have a, this is just for context. Our youth group, we have about.

On.

Any Sunday, you know, we have 250 to 300 high school students and then same with junior high. But still it's, it's a tough. And we, it's a tough thing to get these, to get these Groups off the ground for several reasons, but one of them is just like, again, this is just a conversation that is a little bit more taboo in the church, obviously. I mean, I don't even know if that needs to be said.

But.

But with, you know, it just takes awareness and it takes. But I think for me, a big struggle for. That's been for me is that like, this is not. And I think a lot of pastors may relate to this, but this is not in my job description to. To. To like, to help like, run with these groups. Worship leader. I'm a worship pastor. I do music and then. And I lead other things as well. And this is something I'm really honored to like, shout out to the guys that I lead. I've really loved. I know they'll probably listen to this and I'm just really grateful for them and. But yeah, and I would say that for me, something that's been hard is just finding the capacity to pour into these groups and recruiting leaders and all of that. Like, I would like to be able to now, however, I will say we. Reese, like just now, recently, I've just. My plate is just growing and so I. We are bringing on a ministry partner who's really passionate about this as well. And he's going to be doing a lot of the grunt work, which is. Which is really cool and really awesome that we have that ability. And so we're working. That's. We're still trying to. It's like we've run into problems. We're trying to find solutions to. To combat those problems.

So, yeah, that leader was somebody who's been through pillars, and as he went through pillars, high school ministry was his passion. So that was a really cool thing for us to just say, all right, you've been through this material. Now take it to the high school and run with it. So other ones that I would say were just getting leaders, I would give you guys a kudos to the group leader training. We've made that a requirement for our group leaders. And that. That honestly was such a blessing for me because that just took something off my plate of getting somebody trained and getting them ready to leave. So we had the kind of like, you guys have your requirements of. You've been through the material. Six months of sobriety. Whoever your leader was, they sign you to sign you off to be a leader. And then we make them as best we can, we try to make them a co leader. And then we've just tagged on there the group leader training. And as soon as they get their certificate, they send that in. If they paid for it themselves, we just reimburse them the $60 and send that right back to them as a thank you for completing that. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, that's an awesome way to support your leaders. And what, you know, what I appreciate about your guys story, knowing a little bit of it myself, is that there have been a history of groups for a long time at East View Church. But even like as you guys said in one of your first answers, you weren't a part of that. You know, you were not in the church or kids at the time. But someone had a vision, someone started a culture within the church of having groups. And I know you're at a larger church where that hasn't always been embraced like at the main stage level and hasn't been like the core theme that our church is going after. And I think that's an encouragement to a lot of our listeners because they're maybe in the place that you are. Although I know you guys are starting to experience more successes now and we'll get into that. But for a lot of people that are doing groups, they're in similar places where God did something in their life, they're starting groups at their church, but they feel like, man, we just can't get our staff, our pastor to announce this from the stage or you know, they won't put us on the website and they get really discouraged by that. And yet I think in some ways, some ways East View Church is a real testament to the power of motivated volunteers. People who are willing to continue to operate kind of under maybe the larger structure of a church, but to be kind of a subset, a ministry that's having a deep impact, even if for a long time it hasn't been embraced by the whole church staff. Because you know, let's face it, the larger a church gets, the more it has on its radar, the more it has on its plate, the more there is to announce and some focus is just, just don't make their way up that, that scale right away. And yet at East View there were people that persisted and just kept leading groups, kept, you know, passing it off to the next so that when you guys came to the church or were old enough to be in group, there was still this culture happening. And so I just, I kind of paused to say that to those who are listening that feel like, man, it's just us, our pastor's not really supporting us. What do we do? Just to say to you, there's a lot of impact that you're having. And as you'll hear in a little bit here, over time, that does start to influence the church culture in larger ways.

And I wanted to say, like, as I'm listening to you guys talk about these hurdles, like one of my. I mean, the whole heart of pure desire is not to create little pure desires around, you know, the world. It's to equip the church to do the work of the ministry in their church. And so I hear you guys have these hurdles, then you come up with really creative solutions. You know, finding a counselor's office or offices and you know, getting face to face time with them, creating business cards with QR codes that create not secrecy, but create confidentiality for people to look into these groups. So I applaud East View on the work that you're doing, and I hope that this is an encouragement too, to churches that are listening. This is not something you have to wait on pure desire to solve your problems. You can be creative and customize it to your community.

Yeah, yeah. I would say we're standing on the shoulders of giants that quote, I think it's Isaac Newton. There are guys who paved the way and we're just pass. We're carrying on the torch of what guys before us had done. And I'm just. What they did was a lot of hard work, and I want to just recognize those guys for that as well.

Totally.

So tell us a little bit more about that challenge of having groups that are operating at a church but not necessarily having like the stage presence or getting announced. Because I know you shared with me, Stuart, like a while ago, hey, for the first time from the stage, we're getting an announcement. This is so exciting. But talk a little bit more about the challenge when you don't have maybe leadership at the top that's blowing the trumpet for groups, if you will. How have you addressed that challenge and what have you seen to be successful when that wasn't happening?

I would say the most success we had was just through people sharing their own story and then what Christ had done through their story. And in 2020, we got an event. We snuck it in right before COVID and we had a men's morning. So 120 guys came and I just shared my testimony and had that opportunity. And then we talked about seven pillars and the groups, and that gave a lot of guys freedom to feel safety of sharing their story and then also being like a. This is a safe topic to talk about, even if it's not yours. I just had coffee with a dad the other day. So his son is. He. They found pornography. And so that talk from 2020 made him remember, hey. And I got a text and said, hey, can we grab coffee? And so just the willingness to share your story just opens up doors within the church.

Yeah, I had a. I also had a similar moment.

I.

It's a year and a half ago, potentially. You know, I'm leading worship. And I. And I. You know, it's in the. When you're in the back of the room and you're listening to. You know, you're listening to the sermon, and you're feeling this conviction, your heart starts pounding. You're like, no, Lord. Like, I'm not. I'm not sharing that. And then you're like, no, yeah, you are. So I go up. I share about my own struggle about being addicted to pornography when I was younger. And I think that has. That has been. I just wouldn't underestimate. I can't underestimate that. The impact that that had, because, like, I've had conversations and originate from that. I've had people that probably still remember me saying that, because that's such a. That's such a big thing. I think people. People will remember that. And that's been. Yeah, just kind of an example from. From where I've been at as well. Sharing your story.

I think so many churches feel like they have to have, you know, and Nick and I have been pastors, you know, and there's this pressure that I have to, like, it has to be a sermon series, and it has to be so well thought out, and the graphics have to be perfect, and we have to do all this research. It's like, well, we don't really have time to do all that, so let's just, you know, not talk about it. But what you guys are saying is it's just sharing your story, just getting someone who has a little bit of traction, who, you know, is pursuing resources that are helping, and they're just opening up and sharing. And that is something I think any church can do. You can have someone get on stage and share for 90 seconds, and that 90 seconds can open a door for so many people to step into their own journey.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well. And what I've seen in so many people's stories, I mean, yeah, if your church is wholly embracing groups and they're announcing them from stage and it's prevalent on the website, that's wonderful. But even in those cases, what I would remind listeners is that typically for someone to take that step, to actually admit, I need a group I'd like to talk to someone. I'm looking for help. It almost always involves someone else. Encouraged them, hey, I did this group or this worked in my life. Because in this area where there are so many unknowns, there's so much fear associated with, like you said, Stuart, I'm going to go talk to someone and I'm just going to get shamed or blacklisted for my problems. And even if I'm hearing, oh, there's these groups, it often takes that personal touch of someone saying, you know, I've been where you are. I took that step. It's made a difference for me. And so even if you're not getting the stage announcements, you have that ability. It doesn't have to be all or none. You can really impact people by saying, could I share what happened in my story, what happened for my wife and I? And very often that will be the conversation. Not, you know, not the slick promotion or the video. Those things can help. But it will often be the personal connection that is what gets someone into group or that ends up having them call our office looking for counseling. And we'll ask, you know, why did you call on the counseling intake? And it's like someone I know, a friend, a family member told me about what they experienced, and so I'm going to try it out. So, yeah, that sharing of your story is very, very powerful.

Yeah. I would just add some of the hurdles that we've also had, which others just say, we're right there with you. We launched Unraveled, and then we launched Hope for Men. Unraveled was two years ago, and then Hope for Men was in the past year. And we really grappled with that because Seven Pillars was more established. Betrayal beyond was more established. We had people who had been through the material. Unraveled was. We collected enough stories and then just said, okay, can we form a group? And we're just going to walk you through that group. And so just keeping in contact with the leader when they had questions, like, especially, like, faster scale, double bind, just being available to answer those questions. And then Hope for Men, same thing. It was me just going through with the leader of the group. And we just started chapter by chapter. We started with Hope for Men and we got to about chapter 12 and then had a recommendation, just use the new Betrayal and Beyond material. And we ended up, the guys are doing that and they're loving it and they're writing feedback to send to you guys for the creation of a workbook for Men. When it comes to Betrayal and Beyond. So those are two hurdles and just amazing to see God work through that.

Yeah, it's cool. It's cool to hear because I feel like you guys aren't sitting on your hands. Like, you're just trying it. You know, you're getting in there and it's not going to be. Because I know there's a pressure there in ministry for things to be, like, clean and crisp and go smoothly. And like, you know, anybody who's been in ministry knows that's not how it goes. Like, it's messy and it's complicated and so good for you guys doing that. That is definitely amazing. The, like, other side, like, what has been some of the biggest successes that you guys have seen from group, from this being a part of East View's culture and DNA.

I think, you know, as we're, as we're continuing to get our student groups kind of off the ground, I think, you know, we've had. I remember back at the fight nights, you know, we had. I think we. I heard from a female staffer that said that they had girls share stuff in the groups that they've never shared before. And I think that that's a. That's a really, That's a really cool thing, obviously. And then also I think that this provides these groups the curriculum because, like, we're going through living free with, with some of our upperclassmen guys. And I feel like that place of grace in that space is just when you're young, when you're like in, in high school, before you get married, before you're in a relationship, before you're engaged, like, kind of even taking those, like, doing that before you're in a marriage setting, I think is really. Is really helpful and also just provides, like, it could have been really. It would have been helpful for me to have that place when I was in high school. And it was, it was really helpful for. I think it's just good for these guys to be able to process these really hard things with people who are in the same boat, who understands. And I think for churches to not feel the pressure, it's like, it's like, I feel like sobriety does not necessarily. If there's, if there's. No sobriety right away, it doesn't mean that there's failure. It means that sometimes it just takes some time. I was on a zoom call with some other people and they said that I was like, oh, that's really helpful because I'm really, really proud of the guys that have been through our groups because of the Work that they've put in. And, and it's just cool to see. It's just good. It's just cool for them. Good for them to have that space. So.

Yeah. So let's see. Successes. We have some tremendous support from two CSATs who attend our church. And from 2020, they. They really poured into me specifically by telling me about something called PSAPs. And I had no clue about PSAP, but ended up going and getting PSAP certified in the middle of COVID So started that in person in 2020. And then since 2020, we have that care group model where we had a seven pillars group and a betrayal and beyond group. And I think Cooper and I just counted Yesterday, we're at 15 Pure Desire groups, and that's Conquer series, Living Free. Well, I don't need to list them. You guys know the groups that we're running?

Groups?

Yeah, we went from two to 15 in about three years. And that just. That shows that we're having success. The business cards are working. People are. Who don't even go to our church are coming and they're finding healing. And then our biggest push is now take this back to your church. Who do I need to have a conversation with at your church to help you start those groups there? We do group leader training. So the second Sunday of the month, we're meeting with our, with our, with our leaders. And then the CSATs attend that as well to pour into our group leaders. And then, I mean, you literally get to see individuals, you get to see marriages, you get to see families just absolutely restored. And I don't know who you had on the podcast the other day, but he was talking about divorce of like, the impact that we can make if we can stop the divorces, like how the ripple effect that. That having there, Like, I just see that as just one of the just deepest successes that we have of just like just being part of Christ's redemptive story in marriages. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's incredible what happens with that multiplying effect. And we often think in this area it's kind of a small group or it's maybe even one on one that healing happens. It's like, well, you know, how many people can we really impact? I'm just meeting with this one other guy, and I remember in the seven Pillars of Freedom, in an older version, it used to ask in one of the last lessons, like, how many men are you trusting God for to impact with your story? And it was like, over the next year and three years and five years And I remember writing down the five year number like I had hoped I could impact maybe 100 men. And I thought that was a huge number. And I remember going through several groups and seeing that again and looking back and realizing that not that I had met with all these men one on one, but that the number of men I had been able to impact because we had done groups at our church and those groups had multiplied and then other churches in our town had heard about it and they had started groups and, and I'd been able to share my story in front of our church and then been invited. You know, I started out, it was in the thousands of people who had been impacted. And that doesn't mean every single one of them had gone through group and their life was changed. And they'd say it was because of me, but it was to say there had been impact there that I never would have seen coming. And so when you guys say, you know, two groups now up to 15, I think that's the same mindset of when we run a group and we invest in it and we lead people well towards wholeness, it multiplies. And so if two groups the next year becomes four, and granted it's not always perfect math, there will be attrition or leaders that stop leading for various reasons. But 4 to 8 to 16, it starts to get exciting pretty fast when you realize, wow, we're kind of on this bell curve that could take off. So I would say to someone, if you're more in the place of, well, right now my story is impacting one other person. Okay, well you're kind of at that bottom side, which is okay, one becoming two, but to stay faithful, to do what God calls you to do, because two become four and eight. And as it multiplies, man, it can grow at some point. And you guys now are starting to see that exponential growth of, wow, we're just getting to invite so many people in because so many people have been trained. But that happened over time.

Yeah. And it does take time.

Yeah. I was just going to say, I think if you guys started having these conversations 10, 15 years ago, I think some people assume that a large church who's been having groups for 15 years would have hundreds of groups and it's just blowing up. And it's like, look, 15 maybe doesn't sound like. And I know for me, when I first started groups, it's like, I want 45 groups in this 200 person church. Let's do. You know, it's like, okay, calm down. It's not gonna happen, right? I've clearly never been good at math, but I think that it's important I keep coming back to it. I can't get away from it. But I think it's cool to hear that you guys have a significantly sized church and that 15, that's solid, but it's also not. You have 150 groups. And so to keep that in mind, regardless of, you know, wherever you are listening right now and the size of your church, that the fact that you're having groups creates that opportunity for that exponential growth for sure.

And just to give some people some encouragement of this, when I came on, I was like, Cooper, where none of my job description was anything related to pure desire, that was under a different pastor who had the care groups. And then in 2020, once I was trained in the PSAP, they said, you know what? We're going to give this ministry under you. And then 10% of like my job description. And then with the group growth, it's been like, okay, let's move 30% of what you're doing to, to be allocated to this. And that's just showing like, the more that we've poured into it and invested in it, the more the church is saying, you know what this is, this is valuable enough, we're going to start putting your time towards this. That's been a such an encouragement.

It's amazing.

So what are ways that you guys have seen your pure desire groups make an impact on your church and maybe even on your community at large there in Normal, Illinois, that's just not going.

To get old for you, is it?

You know, we live near boring, so we, like my wife, my wife teaches at a boring school. You guys go to a normal church. It's all good.

Yeah, I think we've kind of been hitting on it. So on my wall over there, I have the number, which again is not. But John Begman said one equals at 2,621,440. And that idea is that if I lead a group for one year and one guy out of like that five guys who are in the group, if he becomes a leader and for the next 19 years he leads one, and then that just trickles down, like that's the impact. And so for me, 10 months is a long time to lead a group. This is, this is slow. It's fun. It's sad. It's, it's, it's just heartbreaking at times. And when you walk with somebody's story to do that for 10 months, is it. I Come back into my office after group and I just look at that number and that. That's the impact that I say, you know what? Like, today was just two hours of my time, but come. Come down the road 20 years from now, if, if we continue and stay faithful, that's the impact that we're going to have. And that number is way out, outside, outgrows our community, our town. So that's just what we're going after. That number there is my motivation to just keep going, to have the impact on our community.

Yeah. And I think our goal is to. In our student. In our student area is just to create this, to be a part of our culture. Like our culture is, you know, where they shouldn't be surprised. Like in a couple weeks we have a couple of our. Of our leaders for our high school groups. They're going to get interviewed on stage during service. And the goal is just like that they wouldn't be surprised to hear, you know, that, that, that that's a normal conversation. I think that we're getting there and just that groups continue to grow, that people know that there are groups available, even if. Even if they're not necessarily in one or necessarily need to be in one. But just I think for us, the goal. And I think we're getting there, but we still, you know, obviously we still have work to do just to get that to be a part of our constant conversation that students walk in, that they're aware of this to an extent if they're around a decent amount.

So, yeah, what I'm most encouraged about Cooper is that for him, where we're at in the adult world, we're typically reactive. And with high school, there's a lot that's taking place where we're actually being proactive in ministry. And maybe at that point we're preventing what. I mean, what we see within our pillars and betrayal and beyond those type of groups, our goal, one of the things that we're really excited about, we're already in talk with Rodney and Tracy about coming out and even our. So Cooper's with student ministry. Then there's our kids. And we're looking at having them coming out and just doing a night for parents on how to talk with your kids about sex. So. So even that is something where we'll just get the word out to our community and let everyone know, hey, this is the place we're having the conversation. Come be part of the conversation.

Yeah. And that's Rodney and Traci write. And they did write that book. We'll put that in the show notes, but they do travel around to churches and give a parent training. So if your church is interested, you can reach out to us. Absolutely. You know, one of the things you guys talked about with the initial hurdles, and it sounds like it still may be an ongoing challenge, which is very normal for churches, is recruiting and training group leaders. So how have you done that? What are the ways that maybe some of the issues you've seen with it? What are the solutions you guys have come up with to make sure we still have group leaders at East View?

Yeah. So again, the group leader training, we have your church membership, and we have that for five people is what we are currently at. But. And that has. Honestly, not only do we have it for our five, but then we have. We have more leaders than that. I think I'm at 20 leaders at this point. And just for them to go through the group leader training, that. That is hands down, that's the number one. I learned a lot from just going through that myself. I didn't have that. And then I went through the group leader training, and I remember going back to my groups literally the next week and say, things are changing this week. I've been doing it wrong in certain areas, and these are the changes that we're going to start making. And that was so humbling for me because one of the guys was like, well, let's start over. I'm like, okay, let's not get that drastic.

But no.

We'Re doing it this way. We're going to do it. As you guys say, you pay the dumb tax. Learn from the people who have paid the dumb tax.

Yeah. I think it was for me from Dave Ferguson, who pastors a church in Chicago, and he always uses the four initials. I see. And you. And that idea of saying to someone, I see something in you. I see in you. Because I think when we're leading a group or we're maybe helping oversee a number of groups, it's very common that people that are in their story are focused on their journey, especially early on, as they should be, are not thinking about, oh, I could lead this group someday. In fact, most of us, I mean, even my story, it's like I just wanted to fix it. I wanted to get it out of my life and my marriage so that my wife would be happy and our marriage would be better. But I was not dreaming about leading groups and telling my church. It's like I wanted to move on and be better and forget it. But it really took other people in my story. Saying, you know, Nick, you could make an impact with your story on other people. This could be a game changer for people in your church. If you told your story, who else could you help? And it started to get these wheels turning of looking outside of my own story and looking at other people to go, oh, yeah, okay, let's think about that. What would that look like? How would that work? I mean, obviously I was a pastor, and so my story is a little different than someone who's not. But I think that same principle so applies when we're looking for group leaders. And what I feel like I've heard from you, Stuart, of doing is just identifying those people in group and then not just hoping that maybe they'll one day offer to volunteer, but actually coming alongside of them and saying, hey, I see something in you. I see that you have a passion for this. It seems like God's really at work in your heart. I think you could help lead a group or you could take one. You have the maturity and the ability. And that might be. It may seem obvious to you, but I will tell you, they're probably not thinking about it now. There is the occasional person that is. They're feeling led, they're feeling inspired, and sometimes in those cases, we actually have to pull that person back because sometimes they're too eager to lead and not focused enough on their own story. But in general, I think it does take us coming alongside someone and saying, you can do this. Have you thought about it? Have you prayed about it? And that may be what gets the ball rolling for them to become the next group leader. Because if no one ever says anything, they're going to get better, move on with their life, and be glad that they didn't have to, you know, tell too many people about their story. But if you can come alongside and tell them that, I think they'll begin to have a vision for it.

And it's clear that East View is you guys are focused on equipping people and giving them the opportunity to step into it. And I think that that goes a long way at any church, any size, that if you're willing to put time, energy, and resource behind creating opportunity for people and then equipping them to step into those, I think is significant.

Yeah. And you guys are reminding me. There's one of the groups that I lead. A guy showed leadership qualities literally from day one, and just to text him after group and say, hey, I see this in you, that has been so affirming. Like, whenever we lead a group and somebody asks A great question or points something out, like there's just like, hey, that's great quality for leadership. The other thing is there are times where we can be on vacation and so I'll still say, hey guys, still meet, just do check ins. And just for that one guy to say, hey, I want to put you in charge of this week and you're going to be the one that's guiding the group in check ins. And just to see them shine in that moment, that's a really cool opportunity. And then the co leader is one that, that's a double bind right there. Because we have people at this point, they're signed up, they're waiting for the next group to launch. And we've kind of said, you know what, before we're sending somebody off on their own to do this. We want you to experience be a co leader first. And I kind of relate this to myself when I was an emt, Basics, I was a basic for four years before I became a paramedic. And what I wasn't doing a lot of was I wasn't watching what the paramedic was doing. I was just making sure that I was doing the job of a basic and doing my job really well. And then when I became a paramedic, it was kind of this eye opening experience of I should have been paying.

Attention to you guys, what was I doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the reality is that was not my job. And so when somebody's in group, it's not their job to watch what the, how the leader leads. It's their job to focus on themselves and find healing. And so by doing the co leading, that's where we enter that stage of just, hey, like, I'm gonna lead. Yeah. Yep. And then I'm gonna give you opportunity to lead. And then you, you do like as you've been taught. And then we process through that, we talk about it, but that it's slow, but it's just, it's been so intentional that it's been really great. Yeah, yeah.

So talk a little bit about how you guys see church oversight working. And I know that you've got two layers here, which is great. How, how would you recommend that pastors who are over you, you know, how are you led by other pastors above you on staff? But also you guys are both on staff. So what role do you take as pastoral leaders in overseeing the groups beneath you? So just talk a little bit about pastoral oversight and how does it work both for the leaders above you and then the leadership that you're providing as a pastor.

All right, what you got, Coop?

Yeah, I would say the biggest thing. So my. My boss, the high school pastor who preaches on Sundays, this is something that he doesn't know. This is just not a part of his story. And so I think for me, it started with explaining to him being like, hey, like, this is what it's like to have this type of addiction. And he was like, I had no idea. You know, And I think that that was a helpful conversation to have to be like, hey, it's not just a try harder. Just don't do it. Mention it for five seconds in a sermon once every six months and then think that that's hitting the mark. And there's no fault to anybody that does that. It's just, it's a part of. Obviously, it's just a knowledge and awareness thing. And so. And in the last. Since I've talked with him and just kind of explained, he's done a great job of just making that a part of his language, talking about it in the pulpit. And I think that has been really helpful from a student perspective. And then also, I think for me, again, like I said, my job description, this is not in my job description. And in seasons of busyness and seasons of, like, we're just having a lot of staff transition right now just with. As churches do. And so my job is going to increase a bit here in this, this fall. And so it was really, we had an opportunity where God provided a leader for us to be. For me to be like, hey, like, can you take and run with this? Because he's passionate and he's going to do a great job. And so as someone that's not in my job description, as I'm sure there are people who are listening to this, that, that this is extra stuff for them to do. And it's an honor to do it. But sometimes it becomes. Sometimes it's, you know, you just wish you could invest more into it.

I would say for myself, I am absolutely blessed by my director. He's, in fact, he's part of my recovery action plan of if I were to have a relapse, like, he is my notification, like, so wife would be first. And then within 24 hours, I'm having that conversation with him. So that was, man, that's a courageous step. But I can't emphasize it enough of, like, what that opened up for us as conversations for the future was absolutely amazing. And just the, the accountability that we have with one another, just from one of us saying, hey, I'm going to include you in this part of my life. And for him, like, that vulnerability, just, vulnerability begets vulnerability. And that has been a huge blessing when it goes down. I really just want to emphasize to my leaders, don't, like, if you have a relapse, like, I kind of rob. What's his name, Dob. Shoots porn, free radio. He's like, good. Now what did you learn? And so let's do that, and let's do the analysis tool, and let's, let's go through this. But if we want to really move away from shame, then we have to create that safe place for our leaders and not just be like, well, you can't do this, and if you do, you're out of leadership. No. Like, what does that look like for them to have accountability? Just as I want to have accountability. One of the. When I went and presented our groups, one of the. That was one of the questions for the counselors. Like, okay, well, if you're saying this for other people, what's your own accountability look like? And just for me to just rattle, like, here's my recovery action plan. I don't have any shame about that. Like, because God has done such an amazing work here that I, I'll tell it to whoever's asking. You want to know. Like, this is how I am safeguarding. This is how I hold myself accountable. Yeah.

And Stuart's a part of my recovery action plan. So, I mean, it's, yeah. We just trying to. Because we know. We know how it is. It's just important to have that accountability.

Yeah.

Ministry.

I love that the counselors were like, prove it. And you're like, all right, cool. Here you go.

Oh, yeah, that's.

What's up.

Yeah.

Oh, and that recovery action plan was. I mean, literally just laid it out. Like, I was like, these are my natural consequences. These are my logical consequences. Like the. I want you to know I am living this out. Like, I love this ministry. Not only do I love this ministry, but I, I, I, I apply it. I'm not just saying it from somewhere. It's. No, it's real for me. Yeah.

And that's when Stuart got offered a job as one of the counselors of the practice product. Okay, so you guys are both pastors at East View. And so, and I love this question because as pastors, you're thinking through, if someone were to approach you, how would you encourage them? So let's say someone is not on staff but wants to bring pure desire to their church. What is the best way to introduce it to their pastors and leaders to get buy in.

I, I come back to just, if we, if we don't share what God has done, I feel like we're doing a disservice to what the work of Christ within us. And I'm kind of like, David, I'm that dude that like I will tell you how ridiculous I have been in my life because it's only going to glorify God. And so the more that you learn about the mess of my life, the more it just shows of God's redemptive story. And I think that has been one of the biggest successes that we've had. We're in a season, we're just in a hard season of ministry, to be honest with you, at our church. And as we're walking through this, even the pure desire language has been part of like as we've experienced betrayal, like premature forgiveness, accountability. Like all those things have come up in conversations here. And it like as when that becomes just part of the culture of your church, it, it is something that's incredible. And so for other churches, like this is absolutely an amazing ministry and that's our goal, is that we do that for like we've. In my Monday night group, half the guys don't even go to our church. And so we're entering into. So we're in six, three next week, the two week or six, three. And as we finish, we're still having the, we're already having those conversations of saying, okay, who do I need to go talk to to take this and bring this to your church? Because we. I want you to take this and you present, you share your story. I'll be right there beside you in that meeting and then let's talk about how we roll this out.

Yeah. Something that comes to mind for me when you're sharing with pastors is I think there is an element, and you were all to this Stuart, that the more we've done our work and keep doing our work and it's like I'm just, I'm all in for myself and then I'm sharing about the groups out of that story and hopefully from a place of ongoing humility and brokenness and not feeling. I think sometimes when we're trying to talk to a church, we maybe feel the need to like prove it and be a little puffed up of like, well, I'm so great now. And we almost come across in a false perfection that a pastor can pick up on, like, okay, what's really going on? Are you really living this out or we go in our excitement too early. I think I experienced that as a pastor. If someone came to me all excited about a new idea, and there's something I've been doing the last couple of months, there's a part of me like, okay, chill and come back in a year. And if you're still that excited, then let's talk. Because I wanted to know that it was more than just the next fad or thing. And so if you are in that place, man, this is so good. My church needs it so bad. But you're in your third month of grooving. Like, the best thing you can do is, like, go to group, stay in group, do all your work, do extra work, make all your phone calls, lean into your recovery so that when you go talk to your pastor, it's hopefully been 10 months to a year, you're at the tail end of that group or starting the second group, and you're still in a posture of learning and growing. I'll just tell you, as someone that used to have people come to me and pitch a new ministry idea, that would mean a lot more to me of, there's some seasoning here. They're still invested in it, they're still humble about it, and they're just inviting me to consider an opportunity as opposed to telling me what I need to do as the pastor to help our people, because that would make my defenses go up. So I think just be aware that your posture about healing does speak a lot, even when you go to talk to your pastor.

And, I mean, we've all been there at some point in our life, if we've been in the church or get excited about something where it's like, you almost get so excited about the idea that you forget about why you're doing it in the first place. Like, I want this. I want everyone to experience this. It's like, chill, bro. You haven't even experienced it yet. You're in week two of sexual integrity 101. Like, give it a. Give it a minute. But I love that. That reminder, Nick, that it is really important to, like, in a lot of ways, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, that you can't argue someone's story. You can argue someone's theology or perspective on something, but if someone shares their story, you can't be like, no, you didn't like. And so that idea that if I actually lean into healing and recovery and I have that story, that becomes not great language, but almost becomes a weapon that you can use to fight for other people, to step into recovery and healing. And that's something I've heard from both of you guys so far. A lot in this episode is how important story is.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I like that it's not until pillar seven that we're talking about those next steps. Like, so it's not mentioned in the beginning of saying, hey, what are you, like, what are you doing next? Now that comes like, all right, we're four weeks away. What's next for you?

So, guys, really appreciate your story, what you're doing at East View, that you guys are living it. You're leaning into helping others as well. What kind of encouragement would you want to give to churches or to church leadership when it comes to the value of having pure desire in their church? Like, from your experience, how would you just elevate this for others to say, man, this is worth the time and investment? Even if, as you guys said, like, even if it's not in your job description, why is it worth leaning into this?

Yeah, I think, again, I speak from a. From a student ministries perspective, but, you know, like, you look at our culture and I don't think any. This is not a surprise to anybody. This is not new info, obviously, but we're just the culture. I don't know if it's ever been more sexualized here in America. And, you know, from a student side, you have. Have 11 through 18 year olds, 17 year olds growing up in this. And, you know, as a church, how can we provide a place for. For students to process through those deep addictive struggles that they're having? And, you know, when you think about it like, this is the. For students, this is the future of the church. Like, this is, you know, our, you know, our. In 20 years, our senior pastor, 25 years senior pastor of East View is probably in high school. They're in school right now today. And how can we set the church up for healing? By starting it now and starting groups. And so that's a really. That's exciting. It's exciting to see what God is willing to do through that. So, yeah.

Oh, man, I have made many mistakes along the way. I even go back to thinking about leading Cooper's group in high school and just. I was in year one, like, just finished year one of my recovery journey. And at that point, man, I was just. I was not. I was not. I was an advice giver. I was doing things the wrong way, but God still used it. And so in that one, it's just like, God will like to think God can't make like just beauty out of our own. Like, just the way in which we do things. Like, God still redeemed. He still redeems. He still takes what, like our best attempts. And he can, he can work his glory through that. And so even for this relationship with Cooper, I remember going to his parents house and I'm sure they were just sitting there saying, like, oh my gosh, can we get a different small group leader? Who is this guy?

No, sure.

But just if we continue to lean in to what God is doing, that is my encouragement. Like, just continue to share how God is currently and actively working. I don't sit there and say, 10 years ago at disclosure, God was at work. Like, no, God's at work yesterday, he's at work today. In my recovery journey, this is one of this, this is our day off. And my wife and I just like on Fridays, all of our kids are in school, which is a huge win. And just going out to coffee with one another, just celebrating, even with my wife about the redemption and restoration within our marriage has been such an encouragement. And my life verse. So you guys have team 58. So shout out to team 58. I am, I partake in team 58. I'm like your single donator. I'm not a home run hitter, but my life verse is from Isaiah 42. And it says this. I'm just going to read it. It says, I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prisons, those who have sat in darkness. And that's what we get to do. Like, we get to bring the light into the darkness. And when I drew my road to recovery, it was just me in a pit in darkness, and I just didn't have the tools. I drew a bunch of ladders of how I had tried harder to get out of the pit. And that just was a failure. And yet here I am, like, because of the light that was given to me, I get to continuously pass this light on to other people. And that has been. It gives me hope, it gives me passion, it gives me a great joy to be a part of this work in the church.

Man, I, like, I was just thinking about where you guys are at. I mean, I know you've mentioned a couple times that ministry's challenging right now. Obviously, you know, the world, being sexualized, coming out of COVID all these things, those are just, you know, the typical challenges. But you guys are faithful. Like, you guys clearly are passionate about this and are working really hard. And, you know, I love. I love what you're both doing, but Cooper, with you, man, just like pouring into the Next generation with and like having the forethought that someone that I'm in group with right now leading this high schooler might be our lead pastor in 20 years. Like that. I love that vision that you guys have. And so I hope you guys, from where we sit, you're crushing it. And I hope you guys can sense that and feel that from us that you guys are doing an amazing job. And, I mean, there's a reason why we wanted you guys on this episode because you guys are doing hard work and you guys are seeing some success, and we wanted other people to see that and catch a vision that they can do it, too. So we really appreciate you guys and the work that you're doing at East View.

Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you.

And honestly, I'll say this too. Thanks for being with us and thanks for being a host site from our recent summit. And you guys just, like, you guys are locked in. And I'm not going to put your emails or phone numbers on the show notes, even though there are probably lots of people. But you got a church website you guys could check out. But either way, thank you so much for both of you to be with us today. Appreciate it.

Thank you. Trevor, Nick.

Yeah, thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, PureDesire is here to help you take back your life from the one of sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. Lastly, never stop being healthy.

SA.