332 - Father Wound (REPLAY)

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello.

Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 332 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my.

Co host, Nick Stumbo.

Sticks and stones can hurt my bones, but words will never hurt me. Wait, did I say it right? Sticks and stones may hurt my bones.

No, may break.

May break my bones. Man, I've already messed this intro up. Maybe we should just start over. Definitely not. We're keeping this.

I. I don't feel like I've ever had to correct you before.

Yeah, I got self conscious about the voice that I was using. I think I was trying to mimic, like kids, and then it just. It was coming out wrong and my brain kind of froze and. Yeah, no excuses.

It's not even a Friday afternoon. That's usually a Friday afternoon.

It does feel. Yeah, like Friday or something. I don't know.

Yeah.

Spoiler alert. It's a Wednesday. Okay, so today starts three weeks of re airing some of really what we would say, our oldie but goodie episodes of the podcast. We don't want people to miss these episodes. They are really, really good. And oftentimes when people start listening to the podcast, they start with some of the fresher episodes that are maybe in the feed. And we wanted to circle back to one today, which was our time with Dr. Ted Roberts, our founder on Father Wounds.

Yeah, I know you and I both have a soft spot in our hearts for the episodes we've gotten to do with Dr. Ted. And knowing that he really brings so much wisdom to the podcast and with his battle with Parkinson's, it's a lot harder for him to do. But we still have his wisdom on this one. And it's kind of. To me, it's one of those things like I think Ted is known for and that has coached so many people in understanding the impact of a father wound in their life. And I think if you're concerned about. Well, I feel like I've dealt with father wounds. I think the same principle can be applied to mother wounds or other authority kind of figures in our life, especially in growing up, that did create in us trauma. And that's back to the intro. You know, we all learned early on in life that actually words could hurt us. And maybe they didn't break our bones, but there were a lot of words that could leave lasting impact. And as we talk about. So I think clearly in this episode, for some of us, the words that Left an impact were very clear. And it's obvious, like, well, I got called these horrific things by a parent or my father. But for many others of us, we had a very positive relationship overall and don't remember, like, being yelled at or called names. And yet, as we'll hear in today's episode, there are pieces of our story where what our brain interpreted as kids or in some of those formative years, the words that were said or the words that were not said could have left a deep impact and created some of that father wound that leaves us wondering, who am I? Am who am I? Where does my identity and value come from? And I think Ted just speaks about it in a way that creates clarity but also helps us have compassion for ourselves where we've maybe missed some trauma that we're going through, and then we can construct a plan how to really heal and grow in those areas. And I would say, regardless of the current relationship we have with our father, because for some, as they listen to this, like, well, if my dad's passed away, is the chance to heal God, it's like, no, absolutely not. The focus in recovery is actually more about what we do in ourselves, not necessarily what we do in that relationship.

Yep.

And, yeah, you're right. This is just a sweet time that we had with Dr. Ted many, many episodes ago. So before we get to it, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms, and honestly, just write us a review that helps people find the podcast. Those ratings and reviews mean a lot to us. Also, follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And with that, here is our time with our founder, Dr. Ted Roberts on Father Wounds. Welcome back, Dr. Ted.

Hey, great to be back.

So if you don't know, Dr. Ted is our founder, he's a clinician, he's written a bunch of books and resources for us. And so we're glad to have him here today to help us talk through what a father wound is, how to find it if it's there, and how to address it in our lives. We're also going to talk about the idea of passing on a father wound and really what it might look like to leave a healthy legacy to our kids.

So.

So, Dr. T, you ready to go?

I'm ready.

All right, let's do it.

Let's rock and roll.

Well, Ted, I'm excited for us to be covering this topic because I know it's something that, like, in my own story, when we come to this recovery process, it's not necessarily what we expect to Lean into to really work on healing and recovery. We tend to enter into it to be more behavior focused and how do I stop these unwanted behaviors? But the father wound really is one of those crucial elements where we're going below the surface into someone's life to see what's really driving their behavior. At Pure Desire. It's a theme and topic we discuss quite a bit. But for anyone that's maybe heard the phrase and just never really thought about what it means, or maybe someone's listening to this podcast that's new to us and new to Pure Desire and they're hearing this idea of a father wound for the first time. Would you just give us kind of an overview of what is a father wound? How would you explain it to someone that's trying to understand this concept?

That's a great question, because a lot of guys come into my office and they say, I don't have any father wounds. And I'll say, well, then why are you here seeing me?

And I got a problem. I got a behavior. I can't stop.

Yeah. But all behavior is driven by beliefs that lie deep within. And the deepest beliefs that a father can communicate to is who you really are. You got a father when you end up missing something in your lives that a father can uniquely give us. Moms and dads, their ministry overlap raising the kids. There's something a dad uniquely gives us and that's in his love and mentoring and discipline gives us an understanding of our divine calling and our destiny. Dad's tendency is to challenge us to risk. Mom's tendency is to protect and care for us. And as in the risking that dad calls forth our sense of identity and mentors us in the development of our giftedness. I believe the role of a dad in our culture is particularly important because there's no recognized rite of passage. As a young man, you look at ancient cultures, they always have a rite of passage. The elders will have a rite of passage they take a man through. Once he gets on the other side, then he's recognized as a man and a warrior. Some of the crazy contemporary and some cultures around the world are really nuts. A rite of passage. One I would call it, you know, bungee jumping is for wussies. Because this in an island in South Pacific of Vanderutu, what it is, land diving. They make a hundred foot high tower and the young men dive off head first with a vine tied to their leg. And what they want to do is just barely touch the ground with their shoulders. And obviously, if you get it Set wrong, it can kill you. So that's one of the rites of passage.

I'm glad we don't do that.

I'm glad we don't do that. But there's some other ones.

It's a real pass fail experience.

Yeah.

Really not a lot of gray area in there.

No. No. So you got to get it just right. I mean, Maasai tribes in Africa, most of the rites of passage are connected with circumcision. So they invite the entire family to come. And when the boy is being circumcised, the family challenges says, if you show any weakness, we'll disown you. Because the Messiah value courage and ability to withstand pain in our culture. So a young man has the opportunity to display publicly vegan, withstand pain. But that's really not the crazy one. There's a tribe in Brazil, Moe, which they standard. A rite of passage here reaches absolute insane level because what they do is ask the young man to stick their fist in or the hand into a nest of bullet ants, which are the most painful type of ant sting you can have. And what will happen? The kid will start shaking, and the Venom lasts for 24 hours. He shows any sign of weakness, they haven't put it back in there. And that's pass or fail big time. Wow. In our culture, when you know you're a man, I put it this way, when your father says you're a man, then you're a man. Father's approval is so important in our life because you don't know who you are. You'll spend the rest of your life trying to figure out who you are. And it drives you crazy. It really sets you up for addictions. I'll never forget when the Lord challenged me to leave the flying game and enter into ministry. I went back in the squadron for the last time, and I talked to the Marines who were there. It was a Navy squadron, a marine detachment I was part of, and Major Curtis was there. And I walked in the door and he was mentoring me, and he turns back to me, and we didn't even recognize my existence. Something in me died that day. I realized how much I had been so affected by my seven abusive fathers, how much I wanted to have someone approve me. It's really a huge issue in our culture today with a father not affirming you and leave you with a sense of anger, rage, and just isolation taking over.

So I think it is really easy, especially in the culture where we talk about, you know, especially today with women. It's like, do you have Like a daddy issue, that sort of stuff. So I think that culturally, it's not unheard of, the whole idea of a father wound. But we get this question a lot. And I've asked this question at times, too. What about the mother? Is there such a thing as a mother wound or things that our mothers leave that impact us negatively?

Yeah, there's no question there's a mother wound. The problem is that the mother wound, mother, the way I like to put it this way, a mom will give you trauma bonds, a father give you trauma wounds, and a mom will drive you crazy. My good friend Ken Adams wrote two good books. One is When He Marries mom, and the other one is Silent Seduction, Core of the Of Sexual Abuse. What will happen is a mom, she'll drive you crazy. Because when my mom, she was an alcoholic, so I had to take care of her most of the time. And then this clinginess, she just kind of surround me and I react to her. And the devastating part of a mother wound is you get mad at mom and then you're caught in this guilt cycle and she drives you crazy and get mad at her. So you're just cycling on this insanity. So there's mothers wound just as much, but they're tougher to recognize because of the guilt that you have when you get mad at her. Yeah. Okay.

I like what you were saying earlier, Ted, about the rite of passage, or an initiation rite into manhood in particular. And I think we see in so many cultures, even if they're doing it in kind of some crazy ways, they at least have a way that they bestow on a young person, that you have stepped out of childhood into adulthood. And it seems like in our society, the delayed onset of adulthood, if you could put it that way, the perpetual desire to be in youth and to be young is really something plaguing us, especially in our sexual behaviors. Because we see people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s that are still trying to act like they're teenagers and have just never matured in their thinking. And I can't help but wonder if part of that is simply we never have helped a young man understand what it is to move into manhood or to womanhood, to really be an adult. And if we could recapture some of that, because I think sexually what people are doing is they're defining adulthood by what they do sexually. That for a man, if he's able to have a partner or to have sex, that's as closest thing we have in our culture to a rite of passage. But unfortunately, it Creates a very twisted view of what it means to be a man. And so just the role that a father plays. I love what you're saying that they play in ascribing to a man or a woman their sense of identity and belonging and purpose. I think to any father out there who's listening to this, it's really something for them to grab hold of, to recognize. We really play a huge role in that very much. We play a significant role in communicating that rite of passage to our children. And whether we do some official thing. Like I hear stories of friends that will take their kids on camping trips at an age appropriate time and kind of, in a sense, pass on maybe a token to them or a family heirloom, a gift. To say this, you know, you're becoming a man, you're becoming a woman. I want you to know the value I see in you whether you do something like that or not. I think just to see as parents, man, we have a real role to play here in helping our kids see themselves now as adults.

Well, I think another thing, too, that we do as a Christian culture, and I think we do it inadvertently, is we teach that the rite of passage for both men and women is when you get married. So then you become an adult, or then you. Now, are this another tier, another level of a believer, that you're experiencing God's blessing more or something like that? And I don't think that that's the intent of churches or of culture, but I think that we tend to do that. And I mean, I'm talking from experience growing up in the church, going to a Christian university like it's ring by spring, make sure you get married. Like, that's why you, you know, that's why you're a Christian, is to find a wife.

Yeah. What does that say about singles?

Right. It says that you're not enough, or you somehow there's something wrong with you. And it's just. It breeds shame. It really does.

And Jesus was single all his life. That's right. And he's the one we're following. It's kind of crazy what we do, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

Absolutely.

So, Ted, how did you discover or come across this idea of the Father wound? I'm guessing you didn't just step into ministry as a young man and carry the torch of helping people see their father wound. What did you see happening around you? Or what were some experiences that really made you realize what a big issue this is in people's lives?

Well, I think it really came to focus. Once I became a certified sexual addiction therapist, I'm trying to help all these guys, and then. And they're violently angry. I can't help them. And I finally realized I was not going to be able to help them unless I dressed their father wound. I've had so many guys walk in my office. I don't have no stinking father wound. I said, why are you so angry? I don't know. I'm just angry. He has this deep sense of anger and rage because he's never been affirmed as a human being. He's never his dad. Look at him and not just say, good ball game. You look at him and say, son, I see who you are, and I love it. And I just want to improve you. And so there's a sense of quiet. Sexual addiction is. The core is eroticized rage. And you'll see that really tied to the Father 1. Big time, big time. So once I started addressing the father wound, I could really see a lot of healing take place in men's lives.

So I know for several of those years at least, you were not only a certified sex addiction therapist, but also still a pastor. So did you bring up the father wound only in the counseling office, or how did you bring that into the church and into your ministry?

Well, by the nature of East Hill Church, we were primarily reaching unchurch people. And I talked a lot about my past with seven abusive fathers, an alcoholic mom, and I used a lot of illustrations from my life, so it naturally came out. It became a subject we talked about a lot automatically because of my past.

So your willingness as a leader to be vulnerable and process your own father wounds and be open about them, I would guess, invited others to do the same.

Exactly.

Look at, well, what have I experienced? And whether they had seven abusive stepfathers or one great father to look at, the impact was being modeled by just what you were doing in your life.

Exactly. And guys will say, I didn't have an abusive father like you did. But what will happen is, father is always there. Standard model is the father's present, but he's never affirming. He never steps into the son's life and says, son, here's what I see prophetically in your life. I see this giftedness in you, and I want to affirm it and bring it forth. Just don't say that. And there's this sense of emptiness securing their soul.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. What I hear you saying there, the encouragement I take out of it is just being intentional, you know, to. To when we see it, identify it and say it and not just assume, oh my, my kids know or, or that, that gentleman, that guy I'm working with, he, he knows how I feel about him. No, it's taking that time to say, here's what I see in you and I want to just call it out because I think God put it there and it's who you are. And yeah, don't miss those opportunities.

Well, we talk a lot about prophetic words, prophetic promises. I think it's so crucial as a dad to take some time and really meditate on the fact that God gave you these kids and he gave you a unique insight to them. What would be the prophetic word that you'd have for each of your kids as they Approach age of 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and speak in their life not to control them, but you're honestly seeing who they are in God. My daughter was ordained last weekend and God gave me a word. I said, honey, I think you're a female Daniel, and pardon me, I'm gonna fall apart, start speaking over. I said, God's going to use you to speak to secular people who are major leaders that don't know Christ. And she started weeping. I said, what were you crying for, honey? She says, well, tomorrow I'm asked to be speaking Salem, talk to some teachers in a national wow convention. I went, man, there it is just speaking that to her. So when you stand up in front of her, realize God's standing with you and you can speak boldly. Yeah. Makes a big difference in people's lives when their dad's speaking to them like that.

Yeah. When I imagine when you're speaking those promises into your kids lives, that's also a role that a mom can have. She can be doing that as well.

Yeah.

But there does seem to be a significance of that father, the dad in someone's life. So what would you say though to maybe moms that are listening, who there is no dad in the picture and they're like, who will ever speak that into the life of my children because their dad is either gone or he's just not walking with the Lord. What would you encourage the single mom to do to help her kids receive some of those promises?

Well, what I do is I'd answer the question in this way. We didn't have any grandparents when we came to East Hill Church and we didn't have any physical grandparents that we could really have the kids with. So we started asking God to give us spiritual grandparents in the church. I four or five people to step forward and they were our spiritual grandparents for our kids. It was huge. If you're a single mom and you're in church, there's some men that I think you could trust. Yeah. And you start praying and God will provide for your son, your daughter. He'll have a man who you trust with a character and integrity. Speaking in your kid's life, it'll be huge. That's the beauty of the church. You can really step in when you're not there for you.

Well, and just experientially for me, in my life, some of the most impactful things that have been said to me or been told to me have been stuff I've heard from my parents but were reinforced by outside sources. So men or women in my life who say, this is what's true, this is what I see in you, this is where you're going. And it's like, I've heard that before, but for some reason, this is the first time it makes sense. Right. And so I think that seeking those people out is going to be beneficial for anybody in the church, whether you're a single mom, a kid, or anybody who's trying to follow.

Yeah. So because usually don't listen to mom and dad when they talk to you. It's like mama, you know, like Charlie Brown's teacher. Okay.

So we've talked about this a couple times so far. Even in our time today. You know, you got a lot of people, specifically even guys who will say, I don't have a father wound. I've had a great dad. He was never abusive, still married to my mom, loves Jesus, taught me what it looks like to be a follower of Christ. So if somebody says that and that's where they're feeling, how do we know there's a father wound? How do we identify if we do have one in our life?

Well, for me, let me talk about my father wound. First of all, it was subtle, but I picked it up after a while. A strong male authority figure. I'd react one of two ways. Either I'd be a rebel, very critical of them, I confront, attack them all the time, or I'd go the opposite direction and become a sycophant. I don't want anything I could do to get their attention, their affirmation. And I got caught in a crazy cycle. And it's really crazy because if you reach out and you try to connect with a man and you're able to do that, you get real close, you'll see their what? You'll see their failures and rewards, and then you'll criticize them and you get caught in a crazy cycle. But I think the best way to figure if you've got a father wound is if there's any sense of anger in your life. If you wonder if you're married, it's real simple. Ask your wife if you're ever angry. She'll tell you. She'll tell you big time. So how do you respond to a wife when you perceive his criticism? How do you respond? I'll tell you right away if you father one. Big time. Yeah.

I think of a story several years ago, about four years ago, I went hunting with my dad and a couple of his cousins at around his same age. And I was hiking the hills of Wyoming with them and just, you know, loving the beauty of it and the mountain air. But I realized there was parts of me that felt like I was a 10, 11 year old kid, that I was with these older men that had hunted way more than I had, knew way more than I did. And it wasn't just knowledge stuff, it was my general emotion and feeling. And I kind of had this moment with the Lord as I was hiking by myself. Right. Like I'm a 36 year old man, I've led churches and organizations, I've written books, and yet I feel like I'm a little kid out here, what's going on? And I think the spirit just really revealed to me how much in my own mind I had created some of those categories where the father wound had changed how I saw myself. And actually my dad and I had some great conversations on that trip and it was really, I think, an emotionally maturing moment for me to walk through those things. But that would be my encouragement for someone who's saying, well, how do I know if I have a father wound? I'd really encourage you to think about how do you act and feel about yourself when you're around your father? Are there things you feel around him that you realize? I don't feel that. Usually when you go home to where your parents live, do you find yourself struggling with things you don't normally struggle with? Do you have like I did this mindset where all of a sudden you feel 12 again. Those are some real surefire ways to realize, boy, there's something here. Because if I feel something with my dad, whether it's fear, anger, maybe even some positive things where you feel really bold and courageous, you might be recognizing, well, I've leaned on my dad for that. And when I'm away from him, I don't feel the same Boldness. So just recognizing where do I find a different emotion or feeling or I'm acting differently. You know, we have so many guys that talk about on holidays or when they're around their family of origin, it becomes a huge battle for their sexual brokenness. Or some of those old patterns come back. Well, again, that. That's revealing that there's. There's issues there, there's emotions there, there's memories there that really, I think, can be very fruitful in addressing them and looking into what, what am I hearing, what are the messages I'm listening to that can really reveal the father wound.

I think it's important also to take that as an indication. It's really a time for you to ask your dad to affirm your manhood. In other words, what sets you up to feel like a kid again is a statement your dad never really put openly to. You say, I really see you as a man. I see you gifted in this area. I see you really released in this area. Because when you're with him, if you stated who you are in the future and who you are prophetically, that sense of living or won't be there.

Yeah.

I remember when I first realized I really had a major issue with the father when I was in working on the house, fixing the plumbing. Now when I try to fix something in our house, we have to hire someone to come and fix the fix that I fixed.

I can relate.

And so my wife walked in and she said, how you doing? And she was thinking, I could be with my. My hubby. I love to do this. She worked with her father outdoors. She loved it. That's what she was thinking. I was thinking, she doesn't think I'm going to do it right. So I said, get out of here. So I said to her, real angry, and she said, I'm getting out of here. She left the house and walked outside and got said, I want you to go back in there and talk to him. She said, I'm not gonna back in there. He tore my head off. She said, I went back in. She. I remember, I will never forget. She walked in, she said, one statement. She said, you ever notice when you work on the house, you get really angry? She turned on the left.

Just drop that bomb.

Oh, man. I pulled that knife out of my chest.

That's a great. I've never heard that strategy.

And so I went, and she's right. And I walked in and said, honey, I never had a dad show me how to fix anything. Yeah. So I'm working on the house I feel like an idiot. Yeah. So no matter what I do, I feel like an idiot. And you can ask any question. I'll think it's a criticism. I need you to help me in this. And she's helped me in it because that's the truth.

That plays out in the brokenness. Right? So like in my life, you know, like, so as you're talking, Nick, the idea of wanting approval or wanting that affirmation, for me, that's what it was. I always want the approval of my dad. And I see that play out even in my life. That when someone says something critically about me, misunderstands me, like that's the 12 year old feeling. It's like it's right back to why can't you just approve of me? And so you see it play out in the way that really your worldview is shaped and how you go about your day to day. You can identify it once you start to connect. How do I feel around my dad and how do I experience life? And those two things usually connect.

How do you feel around your dad and how do you do when you think your wife's criticizing you? How do you react? I'll show you how secure you are in who you are. Big time.

Trevor, you're doing a great job on this podcast, man. Keep it up. So we've been talking about guys and gals that feel like they had a great dad. I don't have a father wound. Let's just look at the flip side for a moment because, Ted, that's kind of your story. We have people listening that maybe never had a dad or they only had one around when they were young or their dad was pretty much absent their whole life. And so maybe they're feeling like, well, how do I identify a father one, because I'm never going to be around my father and I never knew them. Can I even have a father wound? Like, how do you help someone who really never knew their dad or never will have the opportunity to have these conversations? What kind of encouragement or direction would you give to them?

You mean discovering if they have a father wound or not is what you're asking?

Yeah. And how to address it if they realize what one is there?

Well, first of all, just look at if you're married, you got a really simple indicator if you got a father wound, your relationship with your wife will show you if you're wounded there and you're self esteem big time. And the father will determine how well you are secure in who you are in Christ, because he affirms who you are in Christ. If it's not stable, your wife will bring it out big time. That's one way you can see it now. You relate with strong male authority figures. And once you realize there's a father one, it's important that you recognize you've got one. And don't deny it. Don't push it off. You may have never seen your father. I never knew my father, although I had seven abusive stepfathers who used me for a punching bag. So how do you address it? Recognize it's there. And second of all, it's really important. Once again, the church is huge here. I ask all my clients, I say when they got a father one. I want you to pray for at least three male figures in your life. Ask God for them. Now you need three, because you get one, you'll focus on them and see all those woundedness, all his mistakes. You know, go back to the cycle again. These three guys are speaking in your life. You've identified them as a spiritual father and receive from them. And it'll start bringing a new relationship with God the Father and with yourself to other people. It changes your whole perspective on life. Really does.

Yeah. That's really good.

And I'll give some other head towards the end. I'll get some other suggestions on how to heal it.

Yeah.

So obviously the concept or the phrase the father wound isn't something we see in scripture. It's more of a modern term. But I think as we look at the Bible, we see examples of it. So when someone says, well, is this even a biblical term? What kind of things or verses stories do you point to to identify where we see the father wound in scripture?

Well, the classic one is Jacob and Esau. I mean, the classic father wounds there. They were two radically different guys. I talked about it at the men's conference. Esau was totally, radically different than Jacob. His birthday was a big hairy guy, kind of like a little baby Chewbacca when he's birthed, I guess. And he came out and Jacob's holding on his heel, and that was where he got his name. Supplanter, Deceiver, Jacob. They're radically different. Esau was kind of an outdoors guy, kind of a Duck Dynasty guy.

We love Duck Dynasty.

These guys are great. Yeah. And then Jacob was a homeboy. We didn't watch espn. He'd watch Family Shopping Channel, something like that. And their family was crazy. I mean, dad loved Esau and mom loved Jacob. And so. And anytime anyone, the kids will look at the parents and see that There weren't enough. The realest sense of the father. One will give you always a sense quietly of not being enough. Because you never had an affirmation about who you are. So it sets up a shame cycle in your life. It sets up addiction. And your parents will either propel you to pursue God's plans in your life, they'll teach you to pretend and posture. And Jacob was a. Genesis 27 is a classic illustration of it. Remember the story dad says, the oldest son, Isaac says, I want. I want to check out here. I like a good meal before I go. So could you go out and hunt and get my favorite meal and fix it for me? Remember Rebecca? Mom overheard it. She says, I want you to go steal your brother's birthright. And you know, I used to really feel sorry for Esau. I mean, pardon me, Jacob. I feel real sorry for him and the strong mother that forced him to do this. I looked at text closely. The guy was 76 years of age. It's a little late to, you know, frame your problem.

Advice from mom.

Yeah, yeah, right. And so he ended up 21 years running around, manipulating, having horrible relationships. I don't know how many guys have counseled at 50, 60, 70 years old. And they're still cut off from their family origin. They're still manipulating, trying to get themselves be okay by what they do and proceed by what they pursuing life. It's crazy. And the other side, Jacob was a passive, hostile guy. You know, he'd be real sweet and explode. But Esau is a pure rageaholic. Just pure rageaholic. And you have to ask yourself, why is anger so addictive? Because that's a key issue in this situation. I'm not making this guy's name up, but it's Dr. Kazam.

That's a great name.

Did research. He did some functional MRI scans on brains where a guy was focusing on anger. And he found out anger triggers your pleasure cycle in your brain. And then you get pleasure cycle, so you feel good and adrenaline kicks in, so you feel powerful. That's why it's so addictive. And what they both end up doing is they never ask themselves if anything, there always lies the issue of fear. You gotta ask yourself, what are you afraid of when you're angry, you build a little lies of fear. And you have to identify what's really making you angry. And Esau was just. He just acted a life and anger constantly. But God healed both of them. It's an amazing story to figure out how God healed both of them. So what do you do when you feel his anger starting to grip you? You have to understand that you are angry and realize it. Your wife will help you see it. And you need to find some pastor or leader that really understands anger and help you address it, because you'll never deal with it alone. You just can't. You can't see it. Yeah.

A couple things that come to mind. We through some stuff at church. You've been going through a book called Gospel Fluency. And one of the things that was identified was the whole. The whole topic of really your identity, being able to speak the gospel into your identity. And if you look at the way that Satan tempt Adam and Eve, it was about their eye. He was questioning who God was, if he was good enough and if they were valuable to God. So they were questioning, he was questioning their identity in God. And then also when he tempts Jesus. And Jesus obviously does a great job with the temptation. It's all about his identity if you really are the son of God. And so I think that for me, I mean, those passages are not about the father wound. But if you look at the. Really, you look at the habits of Satan, he really wants to poke at the identity. And I think that that's, in my opinion, that really is showing that there is something there. That really a father wound is something that's important because if a father is helping us create who we are in our identity and who we are in Christ, and Satan doesn't want that, he's going to attack it. And so I think that that is really just a couple of things I see in scripture as being potentially proof that the father wound is definitely a thing.

Yeah. Look at, look at chapter three in Matthew where Jesus as a sky part and dove coming down, and God says to him, you're my beloved son, who I'm well pleased. And then he goes in the desert wilderness. Who initially attacks him and Satan and where does he attack him? If you are the son of God.

That's right.

And that's why prophetic words from dads are so important. Yeah. I mean, Jesus needed boy. We need it big time.

Speak truth into our lives.

Yeah, yeah.

A couple of places in scripture I see the father wound occurring. You know, I look at the story of Saul as an example where he was head and shoulders above the rest. We know he's from a rich, influential, powerful family. He's the obvious choice to be the first king over Israel. And yet when they call him out to anoint him, he's hiding. And so it reveals there's something in his thinking that's messed up because he had all the tools. And I asked the question, why wasn't he arrogant and brash, like, oh, yeah, I'm the king. Look at me, I'm big, I'm powerful, big family. Well, if you look at Saul's story, it starts by his dad sending him out with a servant to look for donkeys. And if you're a wealthy, powerful family, why do you send the oldest son to look for donkeys? I know Scripture doesn't say it explicitly, but I think implicitly there's a message there of his value and worth that he was hearing in his mind a very different message from the realities that got him anointed king. And another example I see is actually in the Apostle Paul's life in Philippians Chapter three, where he lists the kind of things that he grew up with, that he was a Jew of Jew, a Pharisee of Pharisees, you know, understood the law, all these things he took credit for. I asked the question, where did that come from? And I think that's what was instilled in him by either his earthly father or other spiritual fathers that were saying, this is what it means to be a true man. You follow the law, you're an achiever, you're better than everybody else. Your perfection is what makes you who you are. And those are the very things Paul has to look at a couple of verses into Philippians 3 to say, you know, everything I counted as gain and now considered lost, that what I thought was important or what was communicated to me about where I should find my value and identity. That's not where it's at. It's in Christ. It's in his grace. It's what he's done for me. And I think that is a real example of the kind of transformation we all go through is looking at. Here's what was communicated to me by my earthly father or spiritual fathers or other father figures in my life about where value and identity comes from. But I'm learning to see it differently and to embrace that. That different mindset.

Yeah, great contrast to Saul is David. All the sons are lined up and. And Samuel says, do you have any other son? That's ridiculous question. He's going to have all the sons there. One's going to be select king of Israel. And he says, oh, yeah, I've got this Hocketon out in the field. It means a worthless one. His own dad didn't even consider worthless. And being worthy, being considerate in the situation yeah, but David's relationship and intimacy with God transformed him. But he had this weakness. He kept acting out. Here he's up in. Up in the palace, looking out over, and he should be out with his troops. And he said he's walking around looking for a woman. He finds Bathsheba and goes downhill from there. So he was able in his relationship with God to get some kind of healing. But there was no one in his life that really spoke relational healing and depth to him. So he's always struggling with this issue throughout his life.

So let's kind of move into that because we've identified what it is, how we figure out if it's there, and then, you know, scripturally that it is a thing. But once we've identified that a father wound is there, how do we address it? Like, is it something we have to, like, sit down and have that tough conversation with our dads? Does it happen in group? Like, what are some ways that we can really work on our father wound?

All right. Well, as I indicated, frequent indication of a father wound is anger because you're so frustrated you don't know who you are. I found a great resource called act on Life, not on Anger. I've used it for hundreds of guys. It's probably the best book I've ever found on resolving anger because it doesn't tell you to try harder. Helps you to understand what's going on in your brain when you're angry and how to be able to process it well. And the second thing I found is that it's really helpful if you realize you've got a father wound in some sense in your life, to sit down as a counselor or a pastor and write a letter to your dad. I've asked men to do this hundreds of times, and there should be three parts to the letter. Number one, tell your dad what you're thankful for, because there are no all bad dads. They tried the best they could. Okay, so it's really important that you thank him for what he did in your life, then articulate those areas where you felt wounded. And he may not even perceive he wounded you. He's just living life. I remember my daughter, she asked me to go out to breakfast one day after she had taken a number of healing classes in East Hill Church. She says, dad, I always felt like to be with you, I had to do what you wanted to do. That was the furthest thing from my life. I just broke down bald. I said, honey, I'd never been around a daughter. I didn't know what to do with a girl. I just wanted to do something. I wanted to pick the fun things. So she spoke to my life about that. I wondered. I didn't even intend to do that. So articulate those areas where you felt your dad wounded you. Then make a decision to forgive him and ask him to have a relationship with you as an adult that talks about you feeling like you're 11 year old when you were a dad. It's really important that you articulate the woundedness and you process it and establish a new relationship with your dad. Because when you have an adult relationship, it will change everything. I just had a coffee with my son yesterday. He looked at me and he said dad, you're a great dad. Thinking, seeing what you came out of. And I just sitting there crying again. And that brings us to the main area that can really heal you. If you're married. This is huge. God gave your kids to heal you. You get to be a kid. You can never be. I mean when you're 40 years old playing in the mud and flying a kite, they lock you up. When you get a kid with you, you can do it. I get to be the kid. I could never be a kid. I'd always take care of my mom. She passed out on the floor vomiting all over the place. I had to clean up. I didn't have any childhood. I got to be a kid again as Brian grew. Especially with your son. You can really see life through his eyes. It's huge. And then you get to be the dad you can never. You never had so many things. I did. And it's really important you don't. A guy in my office will say to me time again. I'm never going to be like my dad.

I don't guarantee seem exactly like the way into it. Yep.

Because he's reacting to his dad and he'll pattern himself as a rebel.

But then we're blind to what we're replicating.

Exactly. It's really important that you establish a relationship of health with yourself by being the dad that you never had. Not reacting to your dad but being healthy in a situation God gave your kids to heal you.

Yeah. So you talk about that letter that you've seen be a crucial tool. I guess one follow up question it makes me think of is should that letter always be sent? Are there situations where you recommend clients because of who their dad is or the life situation that the letter is more for your own benefit but not to send and process with them.

You must have read my notes. There are some dads you don't want to send a letter to. I've had some clients that their dads beat them up and they still try to do that. Makes it crazy. So what you do is you sit down with the pastor or the counselor you have, and you read it to your dad and he's not there. Just have an empty chair and read it to an empty chair. A lot of times dad's passed on, and that can be really powerful. I'll say Jesus will get it to him. Just say what you're feeling. It'll be a powerful time of healing for him. Huge.

So you'd suggest if. If there's fears or concerns that your father is abusive, but whether verbally or physically, better to not send the letter, better to process it with a counselor or pastor.

Exactly. But you've got to process it because it's in your soul. It's going to come out way, one way or the other. Got to process it.

But that process can't happen alone. Like, that's.

That.

That would be some practical things I would just encourage is being a part of, whether it's a group or a community that you can be honest about that stuff, whether it's a counselor or professional, someone that you can spend time with. Because you can't process that stuff alone. You have to have outside eyes looking at it.

Yeah, that's what I commented up front. I says, you can never deal with this issue alone because it's about a relationship. So you gotta have a. You're wounded in a relationship. You gotta be healed in a relationship.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah. Well, in that story I was telling earlier about the hunting trip with my dad, getting to bring up those conversations, you know, it's not easy. It's still hard to bring up something that's maybe potentially confrontational or might make them feel bad, but just the good that came out of it. And there have been other times where my dad has been the one to initiate the conversation. And what a, you know, what a blessing and a gift that is to me when he shows an openness that says, I want to continue to grow as your dad. And if there's areas that I could acknowledge something, apologize for something, I'd rather deal with it than have it be this unspoken thing between us. And I just think of, for the moms and dads out there that are listening, that that's a gift we. We give our kids, is not waiting for them to come to us with that letter or to say mom or dad, there's something I really need to talk to you about how you've hurt me, but in mature, loving, grace filled ways to go to our kids and say, are there things I've done? Are there things I've said? Are there ways I've treated you that have made you feel less than, that you're not worthy, that I'm not proud of you? Because I'd like the chance to make that right and to work through those things. So that kind of leads into our next question. Ted, is how could we, for those who are listening, that are parents or that are going to be parents, what are the kind of things that we can do to not pass on these wounds to our kids?

You have to understand a generational curse of what you're talking about. It's not some spooky spiritual thing, it's the way you think. And your kids will instinctively pick that up. I tell all the counselors about 80% of guys I counsel have a severe father wound. I always tell them it's going to take about two years, but your kids will be about two years behind you in this process. And what I love, Nick, is I love the strength that you have with your father. I see that stability in you and under pressure. It's beautiful to watch. So it's really important to understand it's primarily about the way you think. And if you're honest with your kids and vulnerable with them, they'll process through and about two years, they'll be behind you. Most of my clients, their kids are all whacked out and they're really panicky about it. Will have them sit down and write a letter to their kids from their perspective of what they've been through. Their wife or letter perspective as well. Sexual addiction, it's really important. Statistics are undeniable. Addicts will raise addictive kids and the reason they become addictive is what they saw and heard they didn't see and hear. So they're taught to be crazy and they'll act out on that. So one of the things that's really important, if you have some addictive behavior in your family, get it resolved out, get healed and sit down husband and wife and write a letter to your kids and have a counselor or pastor look at it and process it with your kids, age appropriately, but as you do that, it'll bring health in your family.

Yeah, something that I've been trying and I'm not doing an awesome job at this by any means, but I've got a son who's a year and a half. And one of the things I've been trying to do is just listening to other people's stories about their experiences and their wounds has helped me kind of fill mine out a little bit more. And so as I'm parenting, as I'm. As I'm being a dad, there have been times where my son's crying. And whether it's something stupid or he got hurt or he's not getting his way, I've started to. There've been a couple times now where I'm telling him, not, like, it's okay, stop crying, but it's okay. You can cry. Like, it's okay to be emotional. It's okay to feel the way you feel. And I don't know if he's picking it up yet quite at a year and a half, but I would rather start practicing that now and trying to make it where this I'm not. You know, I think it was Bob Vandermeer who told me he, you know, has neighbors around the area or people that are in his life that tell their kids, just dust it off, get up, don't worry about it, just move on. And I don't want my kid growing up that way. And so, you know, there are probably listeners out there who their kids aren't my kids age, but there are still things that you can do, and there's still areas that you can very simply speak truth into an identity into your kids.

One of the most significant healing times I had in my life was when Brian got hit in the head with a baseball bat, accidentally splintered and hit him in the head. And I'm holding him in my arms when we're driving the emergency room, and he's trying not to cry. And I said, brian, only strongman can cry. That's why David's psalms are so powerful. I mean, he knows how to cry big time.

Yeah.

And he began to cry like crazy. And I looked down at my hands and had my son's blood all over my hands. I finally understood. I'd never been in a real. I could always understand Jesus, but I never handled Father God because I always put one of my stepfather's faces on it. Sure, I looked down my hands and my son's blood on my hands. I finally caught the price Christ paid for us. Price God prayed, God the father paid to have his own son slaughtered on my behalf. I just fell apart and totally transformed my understanding of God's love for me.

Yeah, that's really cool. You know, I'm thinking about kind of the two extremes of parenting. We see both styles, I think frequently that on the one hand, you've got the parent who feels like they have to always be strong. They have to be the supporter, not really show weakness or emotion. And they want their kids to grow up with this stability that I've got it all figured out. And on the other end, it's called stability. It's called craziness. Well, maybe, yeah, false sense. But I think a lot of people feel that, that that's what it means to be a strong parent. Where on the other side of the spectrum, you have emotional enmeshment where a parent is just sharing too much with their kids, they're emotionally dumping on them and the kids kind of become their confidants. So what's the balance between those two? How do parents. Because I think there is something in us that we want to be strong for our kids, but not in a false way. And we want to be emotionally connected with our kids, but not in an enmeshed way. So how do we stay in a healthy place between those two extremes?

What you're talking about is emotional health is what you're asking. In other words, not being overactive and unreactive. You want to be emotionally healthy. It's really important that you process your own wounds and that you face your own issues. When you screw up, it's really important that you apologize point blank to your kids. Don't hide anything from your kids. They'll read it like crazy. And one of the things I love about teenagers is they will not put up with any bull they'll call you on at any time. That's why it's so tough. Teenagers are forcing the parents to finally grow up. You've got a couple teenagers now, don't you, Nick?

Well, just one.

There's more coming, Pipeline.

That's right. I remember I was at the dinner table one time and I said something stupid. Nikki's sitting there and she says, dad, it's not only unbiblical, but it's stupid. You're right. It's really important.

So this has been really insightful. I think it's just really helpful. I'm sure a lot of people are going to get stuff out of this episode. But Ted, we just end every episode with this whole idea of just giving an opportunity to give any final encouragement. So whether it's a guy or a gal who's listening, whether they've identified a father wound or not, when it comes to the father wound, what would be any final encouragements you'd give?

I love the passage in the Old Testament says you're the apple of God's eye. And what that literally means is the word is, you're a little man in his eye. And what that is is, have you ever been so close to someone, the light's just right, you can see the reflection of yourself in their eyes? That's what God's saying. He says, when I look at you, I see myself in you. That's what scripture says. When God looks at us, he sees Christ in us. He's not an uptight evangelical. He's not obsessed with your sin. It's really important as a parent because you'll be overwhelmed by your mistakes and the kids will just, you know, you love them so deeply and you do something stupid and wounds them, tears you apart.

Yeah.

It's really important that God does not see you as some gross sinner. He sees Christ in you, and you start giving yourself grace and not beat yourself up all the time. And then that same grace extend to your kids. Classic example. Help this one guy write a letter to his dad. His dad was really, really distant, remote. Sit down a coffee shop and started talking with his dad and handed a letter to him. His dad read it, and tears are streaming down his face. He said, I could have written this to my dad. He finally broke the generational curse. Yeah. Once you break the generational curse, a blessing of God will just flow through your family. I'm a classic example of it. Both my kids are so blessed. I can't even hardly just comprehend it at times. See my daughter or Dane and seeing her used of God. My son used God so powerfully, and I came out of such hell. There's nothing that God cannot heal if you just trust him and lean into him and get honest. You have to be honest. Your home should be a place it's okay not to be. Okay. It's okay for kids to be kids.

Yeah.

Okay. Yes. It's tough to remember when you lose it and you lose it as a dad, you get angry and get stupid. You need to repent, be honest and forthright. Yeah. There's no way you can miss it. God will keep you there. Right on the center.

Yeah. And I, you know, as I think of some final encouragement. This. This kind of work can be hard. It can be tempting to just avoid. Let me just focus on changing my behaviors. I don't know if I want to lean into this. I would just encourage for anyone that hasn't really made a point to walk through this kind of process of identifying a father wound, dealing with it. It's worthwhile. It really is worthwhile. And so don't try to move through your healing without making this a part of it. Because both the blessing, as you're pointing out, Ted, the blessing that can come into your own life as you work through this, but also what can come through you to your family and future generations, is just really incredible. So take the effort, take the time, process it with a counselor, with a group, because this is really, really valuable stuff.

Amen.

And the thing I would say, because we grow, we grow up in a if you grow up in the church or you go to church or you're a part of the Christian culture, it's just be gracious, be understanding, be gracious, be understanding. And I think that when you think of the father wound, it's easy to feel like you're blaming your father. And it's you're not blaming. You're just identifying. You're identifying the way that you have been given a worldview and the way that you see things. And it's not that your sin is contingent upon the way that your parents raised you. Your sin is still your sin, but the way it's flavored and the way that it comes out will be indicated by the way you're parented. So don't blame, but just work on identifying.

Yeah, I say don't blame, but what we're doing is reclaiming what hell stole from you. Your parents did the best they could, so you gotta be gracious to them and reclaim what hell stole from you. The enemy is the enemy. Your parents are not the enemy.

This has been awesome, Ted. Thanks so much for hanging out with us. It's really cool to really get to a place where you start to see the father wound and then you start to address it in your life. And then once you start addressing it, you see that health can be possible. You see that real change is happening, whether it's sexual, emotional, relational, spiritual health. Addressing the major wounds in our lives, always going to be beneficial for us and our family and really the community that we're a part of. So thanks for hanging out and talking with us.

Ted.

Amen. Good to be with you guys.