335 - ‘Tis The Season: Being Assertive

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy December, people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 335 of Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Knock, knock.

Who's there?

Melvin, the interrupting cow.

Melvin, the interrupting cow. I've never heard the cow have a name. I've heard interrupting cow, but Melvin, Huh? Interesting.

I just always have heard Melvin or. Yeah, some unique name.

Feels like a Midwest.

It's like you need to throw that in to kind of throw them off for what's about to happen, because then they're focused more on the name and not the interrupting cow part.

Fair enough.

Yes. Thank you for playing along. Appreciate it.

Glad to. Glad to. We had Heather Kolb, our content manager, neuroscience expert, author extraordinaire. You can put all those in there if you want, but we had her to talk about this new series that we're starting in the holiday season called Tis the Season, and we talked about today being assertive.

Yes. Sorry, that wasn't a holiday joke. I mean, maybe I could have started with Jingle, Jingle or something like that.

I see a connection.

Yeah. I mean, the connection is, I think for a lot of us, we maybe have grown up or in our past felt like assertiveness means butting in, interrupting, putting ourselves into people's business or conversations, and it's kind of like, whoa, back off. But I think as we discussed today, there's so much value in understanding what assertiveness is. And isn't that it doesn't have to be aggressive or rude, but understanding how to let our voice be heard in appropriate ways actually can be a really significant part of our growth and development as a person and in relationships. And so if you saw the title of this episode, it's like, assertive. What's the big deal about that? I think you're honestly going to be surprised at how significant this practice is in creating healthy relationships around us. So love the conversation. Obviously, we always love Heather's perspective, and I think we all could really grow in this area of being able to speak our truth and be assertive in a way that leads to healthy growth and change in relationships.

Absolutely. Couple things before we get to it. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Please subscribe. Subscribe. Share Maybe this episode with someone. Don't be passive aggressive in how you share it. Maybe be assertive in how you share it. Also. Follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi and with that, here is our first episode in our Tis the Season series on being assertive during the holidays. Heather Cole, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me back.

We are in full swing holiday season right now. And as I say that, I can hear some people cheering and saying, I've been listening to Christmas music for like three months and I hear other, other people sort of like myself just groaning like, oh, Christmas. But either way, the holiday season comes back every single year and we wanted to look at ways how to stay healthy and manage all that comes with it. And this has kind of become a staple. We've done this a few times now where around this time of year we have a series that's focused on it. And it's because it can be a trigger season. I remember Dr. Ted saying that way, way back in earlier episodes. So in the past we've kind of looked, in my opinion, looking at the episodes, a little bit more of a negative Ben to the season and how to manage it. This year I wanted to look more at a proactive way to maintain health and safety during the holiday season. And this is the Tis the Season series. And the first one is on being assertive. When I say that word, I sort of know what I mean, but I think a lot of people are in the same boat. So just to create a baseline, what is the definition of being assertive? What does it mean and look like to be assertive?

So being assertive is our ability and usually you see this in communication more than anything else, but it's our ability to be open and honest with our thoughts and our feelings and able to communicate that with other people that we have relationship with. And really it comes out in the way that we're able to be calm and clear in our expectations and really even concise and in being able to communicate that this is what I want or I need. Because we also somebody who's assertive also recognizes that other people who I have relationship with that they can't read my mind, they don't know what I expect or what I want or need unless I communicate this in a healthy way to them. And there's another aspect to it that also says that because I value myself, I see my worth and that my feelings and my thoughts and feelings matter. I also then recognize that whoever I'm talking with so that you that I'm going to be respectful of you and I'm going to listen well. And because I recognize that your thoughts and feelings are also that they have value and so it really is this way of behaving and communicating in a way that is very reciprocal and interactive with those that we have relationship with. Does that make sense?

I think I would have traditionally thought of the word assertive or assertiveness as being slightly negative and maybe associated with people who were just really kind of brash and talkative or arrogant, like they're always asserting themselves into other people's conversations or business. And yet it was actually in my first time, through the Seven Pillars of Freedom, that Harry Flanagan talks about assertiveness and really helped me see the positive side of what it is to let my voice be heard, to be able to speak honestly and openly about what I'm feeling or what my hopes or expectations are, and then being able to leave that with other people to respond in the way they seem best. And so I actually pulled out the seven pillars of how Harry Flanagan defines it. And I think he just got it from Wikipedia or Google or something like that. But in the Seven Pillars of Freedom, he says assertiveness can be defined as the quality of being self assured and confident with, without being aggressive. And I like that combination. I'm self assured, I'm confident in who I am, what I'm trying to say, but I'm not being aggressive or rude or boastful in the way I come about. He goes on to say, we want men seven pillars, so we want people to learn the concept of being assertive. Control seeks to manipulate another person's choices. Assertiveness simply allows others to hear your point of view while they retain the right to think or interpret the facts as they see fit. And I think that's just really helpful. And I would say for those who know Harry Flanagan, it's something I've seen in his life a lot. His willingness to speak openly and yet calmly and kindly. Things that aren't always maybe popular or he knows that. This may not be something you want to hear, but I think it needs to be said about something I'm experiencing as part of the team or I'm seeing within the ministry. And it's honestly been helpful to me to have someone that really is practicing assertiveness of saying what they think, saying what they see, but doing it a way that is not forceful or manipulative in any way, trying or trying to control other people. So it's, yeah, I think an area I've learned a lot about, but I'm excited that we're going to talk more about it in this episode.

Yeah. And that was my hope. My hope was that we could flesh out what assertive means, because I think there is that negative bent to it that people assume the same thing, where it is an aggressive, harsh kind of thing. So. And I know we're going to unpack it more, but that was definitely some of the heart behind it.

Yeah. So what might be reasons that we aren't assertive? What keeps us from sharing openly and honestly about our needs or our wants in certain situations?

So I think there's a lot that goes into this. I think there are personality types that tend to be more passive just in general, or people who are shy, and so they are gonna be less likely to be assertive. I think there are times when we were raised in an environment where being assertive wasn't valued at all. And so we were basically. When we wanted to express how we were thinking or feeling about something, we got shut down. Or we were raised in an oppressive environment. And so maybe that wasn't a freedom that we used. And I just think, too, that recognizing that being assertive is a learned skill, it's a learned behavior. None of us are born with this capacity, and yet it develops through our life experiences and everything that we've been through that really contribute to our ability to be assertive. But those are a couple reasons why I think somebody would not be assertive totally.

I think fear of people's response, too. I think especially if in those environments you're talking about that maybe were oppressive or meaningful, we weren't given room or space to share our wants and needs. I also think there are times when we do share and we are assertive and it's a negative experience, and so we don't want to recreate that scenario again. But then also, I just. I think that being assertive can often create conflict, or for some people, has often created conflict. And that fear of conflict and not wanting to be in that discomfort, I think is a really good deterrent to being assertive.

Yeah. The environments we grew up in, I think, say a lot about this, like you were mentioning, Heather. And I think in a way, religious organizations can fall into this category where we encourage a unity that's maybe a false unity, where keeping the peace, you know, not making waves, not being the, you know, the sore thumb that sticks out and is complaining about things. It's like, well, I just won't say anything. Well, I'll just. Better to get along than to make an issue of it. And yet we don't realize that it really is creating a false peace. And because very often those situations, people who Are choosing not to be assertive are then going and grumbling or complaining to the wrong people. They're spreading rumors. It's becoming this undercurrent of dissatisfaction because no one was assertive. And so it's like, well, we look unified, maybe from the outside, but inside things are actually getting worse. And if we grew up in environments where that was just kind of encouraged, like keep the peace, get along, we might not have seen healthy examples of being assertive, which, honestly is somewhat ironic because when you think about Jesus in so many ways, he was assertive, and appropriately so, without controlling, without anger, without manipulation. But he said what needed to be said. He spoke the truth. He called people out. He called people to integrity and to honesty and to dealing with their stuff. Even had very harsh words for the other religious leaders. You know, he didn't keep the peace. He was here to create peace. And I think that's part of what assertiveness helps us think through is the difference between keeping peace or creating peace. That in keeping peace, we choose not to be assertive. But if we want to truly create peace, assertiveness may be required.

Yeah, yeah. So I know we touched on this a little bit already, but I wanted to flesh it out a little bit more. Some people can see being assertive as the same thing, as being aggressive or really forward. Are they the same that forward and aggressive and assertive? And if they're not, what is the difference? Let's flush this out a little bit.

So being assertive is not the same as being aggressive. And one of the best ways that I like to think about it is that if behavior exists on a continuum, and on one side we have someone who is passive, and on the other side we have somebody who is aggressive, then being assertive basically falls in the middle that we can have our thoughts and opinions, because again, it comes from this place of having confidence or being valued in who we are and. And really being able to express or give voice to our thoughts and feelings. But even if you recognize some of the differences in that, people who are passive usually don't say much or they go along with the whatever the group wants to do kind of thing. But even over time, with people who are more passive, they might begin to feel resentful that they. Even though they've chosen not to have a voice in something, but it really can end up being a submissive stance that they didn't intend to keep, that they find themselves over committing to things, saying yes to things when they really wanted to say no. But all of that then becomes a really negative experience for them. Or you have people on the other side who are aggressive, that somewhere in their experiences, they learned that the only way for me to have a voice is that I'm going to yell and. And I'm going to be more of a bully in my form of communication. And I'm going to make sure that not only are my thoughts and feelings expressed, but that really in doing so, or the manner in which I do it is going to make the other person feel like they're wrong, that everything that you're wrong, you're stupid, you're this, you're that. And so I think that really, when it comes to identifying these behaviors, that some of them become very clear. Like, I've been in situations where I'm having a conversation with somebody who I have a relationship with, and probably nine times out of 10 or more, they interrupt. People who interrupt. That's an aggressive form of communication. Because when you're assertive, you're saying, because I recognize that I have value and worth, I'm going to respect you, and I'm going to give you that support, same value and worth. And so when we're having a conversation, I'm going to listen to what you're saying, and I'm not going to interrupt you, and I'm not going to quickly reload my thoughts so that I'm ready as soon as you decide to take a breath. But it's all of these things that you can even start to recognize in other people's behaviors. And most of the time, somebody who's too passive or too aggressive in their form of communication, then those end up being really negative experiences like you talked about earlier, Trevor. And so being assertive then draws back to this idea of being confident and calm and concise and very clear in your form of communication. That really does end up being something that is a shared experience with the people that you're around.

Yeah, it occurs to me that you could be aggressive or assertive using the exact same words that someone being aggressive often will also power up, as you mentioned, Heather, raise their voice, or yellow, maybe even get bigger, stand up, move, lean in their posture, their facial expressions. And so if you're having a conversation about, like, where to go out to eat, I could say kind of simply, I don't want to go to that restaurant to let my voice and opinion be heard. Or I can get a little like, I don't want to go to that restaurant. You know, it's like, now it's clear if you disagree with me, we're going to have an even bigger problem and now it's going to get amplified. So I think it's just being aware of what's my demeanor as I speak my truth and say it with confidence. And also on the back end, do I leave that door open for dialogue? Because I think if we're being aggressive, those same words are shutting the door. And you mentioned this, Heather, like it's closing down the opportunity for a back and forth. So I can be assertive and say, I don't want to go to that restaurant, but how are you feeling? And so I've stated my truth, now I'm looking for yours. We're going to go back and forth and maybe in the end I'm able to say that wouldn't be my pick, but I can see you want to go there and I'm glad, I'm glad I'll find something I like. Let's go there. But if I'm aggressive, it's like, either go where I want or we're not going to go anywhere. And that, that really becomes again, controlling and manipulation in a lot of conversations.

And it is interesting that as you give yourself more value, your voice, your needs, your wants, that how that can easily open your eyes to the needs and wants of the other person too. That I'm one, I'm maybe another episode down the road like where assertive and empathy connect because I can see that connection or it leading to that. The more assertive we can become if we're more aware of other people's needs and wants, that can help grow our own empathy too. I don't know.

So if we aren't normally assertive and I think for people listening, they can probably find themselves on that continuum. You were talking about that for some people, they maybe recognize I go into aggression too quick and I need to learn to maybe scale it back and learn healthy assertiveness. But many others listening probably would say, but I'm more on the passive end. I tend to just let others do what they want. I don't speak up. If we're more in that category, how could we practice or learn appropriate assertiveness?

This is a great question because I always think that since this is a learned behavior, we definitely need to practice it and we need to practice it with safe people and in safe environments. And I have found that as I've learned to be more assertive, that one of the best places for me to learn was like in a restaurant or ordering coffee or something. I've noticed with people who are so passive that they will even avoid going to a certain restaurant because they don't want to have the conversation. Like, maybe that with every single meal they serve this certain kind of soup, but the person doesn't like that kind of soup, but is not assertive enough to say, you know what? Could I get salad instead? Because that would be a huge risk for them. And so it is taking the opportunity to practice those kind of things. I've noticed, too, in restaurants that eating out at restaurants is just challenging for me because I have a bunch of food allergies. But if I order something and it comes out wrong, which happens a lot, people who are more passive, they'll just eat it anyway, or they'll figure out how to make it work. People who are more aggressive usually will become angry and they exchange words or even yell a little bit like, why can't you be shameful?

Maybe shame the person.

Exactly. And then an assertive person is going to say, oh, you know what? I didn't know this had dairy, and I thought I ordered it that way. Would it be possible to get something without dairy? You know what I mean? And you have this positive, polite exchange with somebody that's clear. And most of the time, people are like, oh, I didn't catch that. I'm so sorry. Let me fix that for you. But again, it has to do with this interaction more than it has to do with either I'm just going to accept my life and that they got it wrong again, and I'm not going to say anything about it, or I'm going to get angry. But it isn't any of those things. It's just recognizing that we make mistakes. All of us do. We're human. But yet how can we have this exchange that's not gonna end up in conflict, that's not gonna end up in anybody getting their feelings hurt, but is gonna be a positive experience and really proactive to making sure that our needs and expectations are met.

I was thinking that. And this might sound silly, but you could just. With another person or a couple people say, I would like to work on being assertive. Is it okay if I practice with you guys? And it's funny, one of the things that helps make goals more, you know, doable is making them known to other people. And so I'm just thinking if you have a couple people in group or you have, you know, a spouse or even people inside your family where you're like, I realize I'm not very assertive, and it's something I want to Work on, can we, like, can we practice it and even set up that if I come off as aggressive, will you tell me? And then it's almost like you're deciding the rules of the game before you ever play. And then once you get into it, then it's like someone's like, oh, that's right, you're practicing being assertive. Thank you for doing that. Or yeah, you totally did come off as aggressive. And I know that that may seem silly, but, like, the question is so interesting to me because what are ways of practicing? It's practicing, like, that's how you do it. So maybe creating that environment with people around you that are safe, that you can do that in that safe environment with them.

Yeah, which. And I'm just going to say that that's a very good suggestion. And especially if. If what you're practicing to say is something that really could end up being a conflict or even has become a conflict in a relationship beforehand. And that goes along with that whole idea of visualization, too, of just like practicing what this actually could look like, especially if it's gone sideways in the past.

Yeah, well. And if you warn other people or those safe people that you're around to say, hey, I'm working on this, I'm practicing, you may find that they will actually affirm that desire because it's very likely that safe people in your life, people that love you and care about you, they know your tendency towards passiveness, and it probably is helpful to them to see you be more assertive. And they've likely seen some of the downside of others being passive. And like, why didn't you just tell me you didn't want to go that place? Or why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you speak up? Because then later, if it does become a conflict or grumbling or I never wanted to go there to begin with, or whatever comes out, I think for people that are around you, they would have preferred your assertiveness. And you might not see that because you've typically seen it as a bad thing. But if you tell them, hey, this is something I work on, they might affirm you and say, man, I would really appreciate that. That would be great. I'm excited that you're taking the step because I think it will help in a lot of situations. And then the other thing that came to mind in terms of practice, I think we can identify places in our life where we tend to gravitate towards pass. You know, Heather mentioned restaurants, but I think all of us probably have places. Even if sometimes we tend to be more outspoken or aggressive, we probably have places where we go a little bit into that passive category. And it might be with our families that we gather with around Christmas. It could be when we're on trips, it could be with certain relatives or parents. It may be in a work situation. It could be related to how we use vacation time or spirit. There's just any number of places. If we looked at our life, if we looked at our week, we might realize, man, here's an area where I am always feeling something or more often than not. And I rarely if ever say anything. Okay, what could I do? How could I, in that specific area, take one step towards assertiveness? And maybe that's the plan also, that you could tell other people to say, you know, at work, I'm always being given this task that's not my job. And I don't think my supervisor realizes how much time it's taking or adding to my plate. My goal is this week, if I'm asked, I'm at least going to ask them if they realize that it's a three hour job, that that's how long it takes or you know, something along those lines that then you're kind of planning because you know yourself well enough to see. Just like Heather said about restaurants, when I go there, I just kind of go into passive mode and it never works out well. I'm going to try to do things differently and again, maybe that will happen with some of the holiday gatherings. You kind of know where you're going to go quiet. So have a plan, communicate it to others and then try to take that one step.

Now, it's good to practice and we obviously want you to. This is part. I mean, all three of us here too need to practice this as well. But when we start to practice this, we can get some mixed reactions, especially from people who, you know, because what Nick was saying, there may be people who are just like, oh, thank God, you're finally telling us what you think. Okay, yeah, just bring on the opinions, tell me your needs and wants, that then there are gonna be other people where it's like, you're not normally like this. Why are you all of a sudden your opinion came out of nowhere. When we do get those and maybe there's backlash or negative mixed reactions, whatever. How do we respond to that? Like, how do we handle that when we know being assertive is healthy for us, but we're getting that negative in return?

Yeah, this is a great question. Because anytime that we tend to disrupt the status quo initially, we are going to get a little bit of hurt feelings, maybe. Even though that's never our intent. We're not intentionally trying to hurt somebody's feelings. And yet we need to make changes sometimes that for our own physical and mental health, that is going to require us to be more assertive. And so I think it really is. And it depends on the relationship, too, because sometimes you do need to offer some form of an explanation. And like we've talked about, during the holidays, this is a great opportunity to practice being assertive. Because it's a busy season, especially as it gets closer to Christmas, we usually have all of these different events that we're going to go to. And at what point does it become an unrealistic expectation? Like, if I have to pack up my kids and go to three different family events in the same day? That just seems like a lot for anyone. It is a lot.

It's a lot of food, too.

It is.

But being able to say that, okay, I can see how, you know, talk with your spouse. I can see that we could do these two things pretty easily, and they're close together, and it's not going to be very much effort. But this other one, maybe we should have an assertive conversation with that person and say, you know what? We just have a lot going on on this day. Would it be possible for us to get together sometime during the week after Christmas when things slow down doing that kind of thing? Because a lot of people, even though it might not meet their expectations, if you have that same level of respect with that person, then to be able to. For them to say, oh, yeah, I can see how that would be a lot for you and your kids. And sure, let's just set something up after Christmas. But sometimes even, like we've already mentioned, depending on the relationship, that could be a lot of risk, and they might not even receive it very well. And it might get to a point where you have to say, I really. You know what? That's just gonna be too much for us. So we're not gonna be there on that. But if you guys have space in your week, next week, let us know and we'll try to work something out. You know, where you just have to say, where you're not really shutting the door, but at the same time, you're saying, I'm not really gonna engage in this conversation anymore, because I don't think I have to, because I've already made this decision, and it's best for me and my family to do what we've decided. But I'm open to when you have something that is receptive to say or that you have to. If you want to continue this conversation, I'm happy to have it with you.

Yeah, having the because with your statement helps that I, if we're being assertive, to say, you know, I don't want to go there because here's things going on, here's the level of stress in my life, here's other things going on around that same situation that you might not be aware of. Because very often when we're assertive with some of our reasoning and people are able to see, like, oh, I can understand better what's going on. I didn't realize that that is, you know, more likely, I think, to create a positive outcome. But what else I was thinking about is I don't think we should ever assume that if we're assertive or we speak up and someone has a negative reaction that we did the wrong thing or that we shouldn't have been assertive. And that may be a real battle. If we're not accustomed to being very assertive and especially if we're a people pleaser, you know, raise our hands in the room that wants everybody to like us all the time and approve of everything we. And then we speak up and maybe share a boundary or something we're not willing to do, or an opinion that's not popular and people disapprove. It's like, oh, I did something wrong. I shouldn't have said that. No, maybe that is what you needed to do. So I think just not assuming. And if there is some negative feedback, being able to reflect on that, maybe take it to someone else and say, man, I spoke up at a work meeting and this is the way it went. And it created kind of some negativity. Did I do the wrong thing? And I think others who care about you and are safe could give you that feedback of no, that that needed to be said. And I think it's actually going to create really healthy conversation. And then you could respond and know, like, oh, okay, that was a good thing. Or if you were practicing assertiveness in a way that did cross the line or go a little too far, a friend can help analyze that too. Well, you know, this was really healthy. But when you went on and said, because you're stupid, I think that kind of derailed the conversation. You know, obviously that's, that's an extreme example, but we might be taking the right steps, but take it a little too far or not realize that we did veer into something that got to be kind of a personal put down. So, yeah, just having others that can give us that feedback to either affirm no that you were right on. I really appreciated that. Or, hey, here's maybe a way next time it could have been a little better received.

Yeah, I think too, doing some mental rehearsal, preparing yourself for receiving disappointment. Because obviously, Heather's you were sharing. I was thinking the holidays are really a time of clashing expectations for so many people. And so when, even when you handle it so perfectly, you don't call them stupid, you give them a good. Because, you know, even then someone could still be super disappointed. Like, oh, we've been planning this all year, like, so bummed you couldn't make it. And so I think doing some mental rehearsal on your end of, like, look, I may get this. So let's think about what that would look like and how I can respond in the moment, because I think that's one of the things that keeps us from being assertive. I don't want to disappoint people. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want to let them down. And maybe that is what's happening. But that still doesn't make you being assertive bad. So I think playing that out a little bit in your head could be helpful in preparation for those conversations.

I think you can also be a little bit proactive with this. I know that I've taken this approach with my sons, especially as they've gotten older and they get married, because holidays, the way that we used to celebrate holidays, is not gonna look the same once they get married. And I recognize that. And I also remember being that mom with young kids and having to go all of these places, and really, it's sucking the joy out of this.

It's as if these people forgot what it's like to have small children.

Right? And then also with having military sons where the holidays are just another day and they've been deployed over the holidays. And so I think that my expectations have always been to give my kids permission to do whatever works best for them. And I've even been setting this up for the last three years of saying, I love that we can do this together, but when you have kids. Because kids are a game changer. But when you have kids, just know that I'm going to be flexible and, you know, and that you guys get to do what's best for you. And so this holiday season is the first one with a grandbaby and even the Last couple years, being able to say, you know, if Christmas Eve or Christmas Day doesn't work, but yet the 26th or the 27th works, where everybody's back in town or whatever, then great, I'll have that day. And it's great to even just not necessarily have those clashing expectations, but to be proactive in seeing that it's reasonable to expect that as my sons get married, as they have children, it's gonna change our holiday season. And yet I don't want it to be a negative thing. So how can we keep it positive even in the midst of it?

Yeah, I like what you're saying there, that you're basically giving other people permission to be assertive. You're inviting it. You're saying, I want you to tell me your needs. I want you to speak up about the reality of your situation. I want you to tell me if I'm overstepping or creating unrealistic expectations. Please speak up. And so I think if we do feel like people around us maybe do wrestle with being assertive, we know they tend to go passive or they just. They want to be a pleaser. That's a role we can play to help. And so thinking of the why to do this, because we have talked about that, it might not be easy, it might create conflict. So why do this? How does being assertive help us on our recovery and healing journey?

So you already mentioned one of the key things earlier when you talked about boundaries, because people who have. Who are more assertive, they tend to have really healthy boundaries because they recognize that if I value myself, if I value my wants and needs, then I need to have boundaries that are going to protect my wants and needs, if that makes sense. And so they have really healthy boundaries and are pretty good at communicating those boundaries in a way that is effective and doesn't create divisiveness in relationships. But the more that I think about assertiveness, assertiveness, it seems like it carries this package of things that we talk about all the time, like having boundaries, having a growth mindset, being able to communicate in a way that really does preserve relationship, that it doesn't cause conflict, that really all of those things, being more emotionally intelligent, I think all of those things, the more that we learn the value of being assertive and how it really does protect us and it protects our relationships, you can kind of see this, I don't know, this bubble of all of these things that work together to create this. I don't know if it's an ease, but it does seem to make you recognize the value of being assertive totally.

And being assertive is like entering into a double bind, because you know that it's a lot easier to be passive in the moment, but then you also know if you're not assertive that then you may feel discomfort later. And I just. As you were answering, I was writing down that, like, lack of being assertive can equal potential discomfort. And we see that with people who are, like, overly passive, it tends to blow up later down the road. But when we feel that discomfort, that's what led us to unhealthy behaviors in the first place. Like that, you know, it's, like, incongruent inside, and we don't know how to deal with it. And so a way to get rid of that feeling is to numb out with pornography or acting out or whatever may be. And so definitely on the recovery side, being assertive can be that proactive thing that you're doing to actually manage what's happened to you in the past when you lack to be assertive. And so I think it's actually a recovery tool in some ways, being assertive, because it actually keeps you out of those difficult, sticky situations where you get triggered emotionally or things happen that would once cause you to go to those unhealthy behaviors.

Yeah, you were talking about boundaries, Heather, and I want to go back to that, because I think when we use the language of boundaries, a lot of us maybe go towards, well, that's for the betrayed spouse. The one that's been infringed on has had harmful things done to them in the relationship. They need those healthy boundaries, not only with their struggling spouse, but with others and, you know, learning to have their voice. And all of that's true, but I just wanted to bring up that the same need exists for people who struggle or have had addiction to be able to be assertive and have boundaries about what they need. Because going back to what you said, Trevor, it is a lack of having our needs met that leads us into unhealthy behavior. We've talked about it a lot, and Ben Bennett says it on the podcast that pornography or other forms of acting out sexually are illegitimate ways of meeting legitimate needs. Well, if we don't know how to be assertive and express our legitimate needs, then we will continue to go towards illegitimate ways of meeting it. And so when we've got those guardrails in our life that keep us from those unhealthy behaviors and we maybe feel ourselves gravitating towards them or starting to hit guardrails that we've set up around our behavior. It's in being assertive that we can tell others what we need or what's going on inside and be able to say to someone, you know, I'm really just looking for some affirmation. And that doesn't mean, you know, your spouse can always be the one to meet it, but you can think through, boy, if I need affirmation, if I need a sense of being reminded who I am, where can I go to get that? Is it to the word of God? Is it to friends that encourage me? Is it doing an activity or a hobby that kind of makes me feel good about my skill set? That might look like a whole lot of things, but if I'm not assertive to say what I need, I will probably, in isolation, find less healthy ways to meet that need. So assertiveness and boundaries are key, whether you are the betrayed spouse or the one who's been struggling and battled with addiction.

Yeah, yeah. And I really appreciate that you brought in seven pillars and talked about assertiveness in that it is also in unraveled and betrayal and beyond and the compassionate warrior where we talk about. Because it is really a skill set that has a lot of value in recovery and healing.

So like many areas of life, we are more likely to do an activity if we know not only is it for us, but also that it helps others, that it goes beyond just, you know, me to what, what could this do for my family, my relationship? So let's talk about that a little bit. How does our choice to be assertive potentially help our marriage, our family and friends around us?

I think that it's the same way that we talk about with people who are in recovery and healing, that you work on your healing first and that there really is a little bit of this trickle down or this overflow that happens when we start to get healthy. Then it seems to affect all these different areas in our life and especially our relationships. And I think that when we practice assertiveness, even though we've talked about how it could be a little bit divisive at first, especially if you've always been the passive one in the relationship and now you're making changes in that. But I think in the long run, it really is one of those things that the more that we practice it and the more that we even see, see how effective it can be in promoting healthy relationships, that it does tend to be something that people notice about us.

Totally.

Yeah.

And it's something we can do in our families. I mean, I think of something my therapist told me that we like basically the script that we've been given with our family of origin. It gives us the perfect ability to recreate that exact same situation in our current family. And I remember a time where I thought that was like. I thought that what I went through perfectly equipped me to create the exact opposite. And he's like, no, no, no. It equips you to make the exact same thing happen in your house. And this is a way to counteract that. If you grew up in that oppressive environment, the lack of safety in your house, to be assertive. If you start being assertive in your own home, that creates a place where everyone's voice is accepted at the table. Everyone's needs and wants are important and are valued. So I think it's also something that we can do to change the trajectory of our family and the health of our family. If we can begin to be assertive. And like you said, it's going to trickle down to people around us.

And if we think about it, we've defined intimacy not as just physical closeness, but intimacy is that knowing and being known. It's that being able to bring my whole self and finding that that is good enough, that that's accepted, that people love me for who I am. And when we're not assertive, we are tending to keep parts of ourself back, parts of our truth back, part of what we're experiencing we're not sharing with others. And it will hinder our ability to be close to others. And so I think if we can see assertiveness in that way of, like, for my spouse, with my kids, if I'm willing to speak confidently about what I'm feeling or needing or seeing, and do it in a kind and respectful way, I'm actually letting them see me and letting them know me. And that creates connection, that creates relationship. And I. I think even in. I think about our marriage ways that my wife very much grew up in a home where opinions were not welcomed. She was the middle child, so her voice got lost in between an older brother and younger sister that were much more needy in terms of parental attention. Growing up, my wife was kind of the perfect child. Always got her homework done, those kind of things. So she really didn't learn to let her voice be heard. And then she gets married to a guy that has plans and does his own thing and struggles with addiction. And I think she just fell into some of those patterns early in our marriage. So much of our recovery for her was just about letting her Voice, be heard, being able to speak up about what she liked, didn't like, wanted, dreamed of. So not only did that help her, I think grow as a person. I feel like it's maybe the main way that our marriage has grown because I feel like we know each other so much better, we do things so much more often that I know is really something she wants to do, not just she's doing it because it was my plan and idea. So if you feel any of that in your own marriage, I think just realize that it's not only for your growth, it's going to create momentum in your marriage because you're not just going with the flow and doing what they want. You're really participating co equally in building that life and building that family. And really that's what relationship is about, is being co equals in something together. If you can be assertive, you could really see that begin to happen.

So let's land the plane then. And this is, you know, you can be a final encouragement, whatever you want it to be here. But why is it so important to each of us and our encouragement to our listeners to be assertive during the holiday season?

We've kind of already talked a little bit about this, but I think that it's a time of year that is busy beyond our normal tasks and even events. And it seems to carry a little bit more stress. Even if it's. It's positive stress, it still is stress that affects us physically and mentally. And I just think that for us to be able to be assertive, not in a selfish way to think about what do I want this holiday season to look like? How is it gonna benefit my kids and my spouse and even just all of our family in general to be more assertive. I just think that there's so much value in taking that first step. And we've already talked about practicing things. This doesn't mean that you're gonna have to practice it with every single person that invites you to a family event. But if there's something that, like you were saying, Nick, that tends to be something that every single year this is just a stressful environment. And I just go and I show up and I don't say anything. Maybe this year you're gonna take that one opportunity to practice with safe people and be able to say something out loud that is assertive, but just so that you can share your needs and wants in a way that is healthy and not get kind of walked on during the holiday season or overlooked or any of those things that sometimes happen. During this busy season, I find it.

Funny and kind of sad how often during Christmas or the holiday season, I will hear people say something like, well, let's just get through Christmas, or, let's just get through the holidays. And it's like, when did that become the goal? And if that's what we're doing year after year, year, maybe it's because there's not assertiveness happening to create healthy change or a better rhythm. And so you are just getting through and not saying anything in ways that could help. And so if you feel that, like, maybe this year when you hear yourself saying, let's just get through Christmas, it could be a little warning light of going, wait a minute, why do I keep saying that? What about it is. Am I unwilling to maybe face something or deal with something that. That, yeah, maybe creates a little initial challenge, but could make things a whole lot better. The other side, I would say, about why it's so important at Christmas and holidays is there is something very real about when we gather with family, particularly our family of origin, that there can be a tendency to revert to old ways or former ways of thinking. I mean, you may literally be going to your family home and sleeping in a bedroom that you grew up in as a kid. And there is a part of your brain that kind of clicks back to being, you know, 10, 12, or 14 or whatever age you kind of most identify with in that home. And you may shift into a mode of just, well, mom does her thing, dad does his thing, my brother's fight, whatever has happened keeps happening. And if you're not assertive, you're not going to grow. You're going to go back to that place and go potentially back to unhealthy behaviors. And so being assertive means being an adult. Being an assertive means acting your age in a good way. And it might mean saying things to family like, you know, I'm 30 now. I don't. I don't like that the way I did when I was 12. Could we talk about a different way to do this or, you know, this tradition made total sense when we were all four and five. We're not anymore. Why are we still doing this? Because it's actually really awkward or uncomfortable.

I don't like taking pictures in the.

Bathtub anymore, whatever the conversation might be. Hopefully it's not to that extreme. But every family has its oddities. I just think that is the value of you're not that age anymore. And if you find your brain reverting back there, the danger is the same unhealthy behaviors that you dealt with then could come back. So being assertive keeps us present, and I think it helps us mature in those relationships where, honestly, we may need it most.

The picture I got is just if more voices are given weight and value, then more people would have more joy during this season. Like, yeah, you know, mom or dad might not have everything they wanted happening, but that means that maybe, you know, sibling one and sibling two finally were assertive and they're doing things they want to do. And so I'm thinking instead of this, like, you know, it's almost like this uneven kind of weighted system, everyone's kind of getting a voice at the table. And so I can see that being a way that we can bring more joy to the season, especially when we're around family of origin and celebrations. If more people's voices were given value and they were willing to share it, then we could have more fun together. And we like fun. Fun's great, especially around this holiday. Okay, so tis the season to stay healthy. That's very clear. We really want this to be true and we really hope. What we just talked about about with that last question is what your season is like, that being assertive is helpful for you in your context, and that it brings more joy. We do hope and pray this conversation helps you to take the courage, because we do think it takes courage to be assertive during the holiday season. And it, as we talked about, is an important piece of recovery and healing journey. So, Heather, thanks for joining us talking about assertiveness.

Thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help you take back your life from a wanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being helpful.