336 - ‘Tis The Season: Healthy Conflict

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy holidays to you. I am your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 336 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Christmas, Christmas time is here. Time for joy and time for cheer.

Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Yeah, Yeah, I still. That's my favorite part.

Oh my gosh. Do you know the more recent movies, do you know who they got to play those voices?

I don't, I haven't really kept track or anything.

It's like Justin Long, Zac Efron and then one other. It's like really big actor names. It's like why that seems so weird. So they're just gonna tweak their voice all the way up to.

Yeah, whatever.

Oh my gosh. Okay, well, I mean, I'm guessing.

Question for you, Trevor.

Ok.

Your all time most annoying Christmas song, do you have one?

It's. Yeah. Mariah Carey.

All of us. You're in the Mariah Carey camp? I am in the Feliz Navidad category.

Really?

Like that. Just like every year it's like, seriously, this is the dumbest song. It's just so repetitive. It's a combination of English and Spanish for no reason why. Just. Just drives me crazy.

You take some principled issues with it. It sounds like. Okay, so we had Ashley Jameson on today and we're in our second episode of Artist in Series and we were talking about how to handle conflict in a healthy way.

Yeah. Well, there are some people, if you try to wish them a merry Christmas from the bottom of your heart, they're not going to respond well because they're tired of what Christmas does to them in their family or maybe to a loved one. And they're just like, oh boy, here we go again. And I think we do have this hope. We talk about it a lot in the episode of We Want the nostalgic Christmas. We want it to be a time for joy, a time for cheer. We want it to have kind of that. What's fun about the Chipmunk song is I think the youthful enthusiasm of their representing little boys even though they're chipmunks. Yeah, weird thing there. But anyway, that idea like, hey, it's kids love it. It's the hope, the expectation, the joy. But if we're in conflict with people and maybe the holidays or Christmas is the time we see them, it can be very, very challenging. And so I think this episode is really intended to Give all of us some insight into how to make conflict healthy, because conflict is really inevitable. Sooner or later, we're all going to be in conflict. Whether it's, as you mentioned on the drive Christmas party, the people we see at the Christmas party, or the aftermath of, you know, what happens because we went to the Christmas party and didn't go somewhere else or we spent too much money or. Yeah, there's just so many things. So conflict is inevitable. The question becomes, is it healthy and redemptive and working as a part of our growth and recovery, or is it an unhealthy thing that actually is pulling us backwards? And I think today we give a lot of ideas for what healthy conflict might look like. And so if you hear the word conflict and you just think it's always negative, I hope you'll be open to the idea that conflict can actually be an instrumental thing that God uses in our lives for growth and for good. Yeah.

Plot twist. Okay, well, before we get into it, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms, and if you write us a review and share it with someone else, it would be like a Christmas gift to me. Also, follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. And with that, here's our second episode in our Tis the Season series on healthy conflict during the holidays. Ashley Jamison, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. And we like having you. We were just talking off air that you're like, why do you always invite me to managing struggling with the holidays? This isn't an indictment towards you. This is, we love you, we trust your voice. We know you have a lot of good things to say. So thank you for being courageous and coming back on another holiday series.

Yeah, I actually am happy and nervous to be here because when I was thinking about conflict, I'm like, I cannot handle sitting with emotions for more than 24 hours. And so if I have a problem with somebody, you're going to know quickly. And then usually, sometimes 80% of the time, that wasn't the right decision. And I should have waited and sat with those emotions a little longer. So I have a lot of history of what to do and not to do.

Perfect.

Yes.

School of hard knocks. Learn the hard way.

Okay, so the holiday season is upon us, and as we get into this time of year, there can be hurdles that tend to get in the way of our health. One of those hurdles is conflict. And you've already talked about it, Ashley, and it's not just something you deal with. It's something we all deal with, especially in this holiday season. And I'm thinking about our time with Heather Kolb in the previous episode on the series. The idea that the reason why conflict arises seems to be because there are a clashing of all these expectations that we all have coming into the holiday season and the desires and hopes that we have. So we want to talk about today how to handle when stress comes during the holidays, and then that leads to conflict. So we're going to talk through how to handle conflict in a healthy way and also how to use that to help us move in the direction of health, even during this, you know, and you said it the last episode, Nick, like, we don't want this to be the challenging season. We survive. So we're hoping that this can become a joyful season, especially in how we navigate conflict. So, Ashley, let's just start with this. What is it about the holidays that causes so much conflict? Especially when it's like you see everywhere on Hallmark, it's the most wonderful time of the year, yet conflict seems to happen so often. Why is that?

Those shows are all lies.

There's a lot of truth to that.

Hallmark and all their, like, they just want to sell you stuff. They think if you watch that, you'll go to their store and buy things. But I think the big, the biggest issues is expectations going into the holidays, and partly due to Hallmark social media seeing people's vacations and holiday pictures and how people have their place settings and the idea of, I don't even know if this is a real term, but I call it like the white knight idea. When you have a lot of stress or maybe not the best childhood or you're not having the best experience being single or with a husband you just divorced. And so you have this, like, white knight syndrome kind of thing where you think, if I just get this, if I just get this family this experience, it's going to make everything better. And so I know that's something I experienced. Like, we all have a little bit of dysfunction in our home, some of us more, some of us less. And so my childhood family of origin did not really do holidays, like, together as a family. It was really hodgepodge and the kids ran a lot of it. And so I always had this expectation that I would marry into this family that knew how to do it right. And those expectations obviously were not met. They did it differently. But I didn't get this sense of like, oh, this is how you do it. It ended up, I guess, revealing areas where I disagreed with them, like, okay, this is my dysfunction over here, but at least I'm comfortable with my dysfunction and I know how to operate in it. And now I have this new dysfunction to enter into. And so I think that's, that's a big thing. It's the same we see when people enter into marriage and they think their sex life is going to be one way or another the same thing for holidays, that we have this expectation and then when it's not met, it's, it's really disappointing. And sometimes we end up finding others to blame for that if we're not aware enough going into it.

If you think about those Hallmark movies, they actually do all involve conflict. I mean, it's so predictable. You just know the whole movie is building to something that's going to get unearthed. There's going to be a blow up, but there's always resolution. And I think that's maybe a part of what we're talking about here, is that so many of us have had a lot of holiday conflict. Things built up, they finally bubbled over. There was some kind of, you know, argument or explosion or harsh words said, but there wasn't resolution. There wasn't that opportunity where people could come back together, own their stuff. I mean, it's what honestly I think gives a lot of us those warm, fuzzy feelings. And watching that movie. And even though I know the storyline is so predictable and it happens in a hundred different movies, there's something about they figured it out, they came back together, they found a way to see eye to eye, they got through their stuff and now they're kissing in the snow and living happily ever after. And I think part of us wants that. But unless we are intentional about how we approach conflict, unless we're intentional about how we attempt to resolve it, it is likely just going to become a recurring pattern. And so I think back to the original question of like, why the holidays, why now? Why during this Christmas season? To me, the biggest thing that stands out is just that we're out of our routines. You know, when we're in our weekly routine, our work rhythms, our family rhythms, we've kind of found where does the points of tension come up. We've probably worked through the years at how to address it better or at a minimum, how to sustain and get through those tough parts of our week. But holidays just throw so many unique things from family trips to family pictures to gift buying, gift opening, travel, vacation time, staying at other people's houses, you know, sleeping in a relative's bed that has bad back support. And now you're grumpy. All those things that maybe we're not able to anticipate very well. And so it can catch us off guard. And when we're not in a healthy state of mind or in a place where we feel maybe secure or comfortable, conflict is just more likely to happen. And so I think if we're aware of that, like, hey, I'm out of my routine, things are different, conflict's probably going to happen then, rather than being panicky about it or feeling like, oh, no, Christmas is ruined because we're having some conflict, you can have this acceptance back to your idea. Ash, about expectations of, hey, I kind of expected there was going to be some conflict, and we're going to deal with it, and we can still make the best of it and have a really great Christmas season.

Yeah. And I think it does tie to our last conversation, too, about being assertive, that people don't tend to be assertive, and when they're not, then things come out sideways, when expectations aren't met or frustrations are had or there's a misunderstanding. And I. I don't know if this is true, but in my observation, the holidays tend to be like, everyone is passive aggressive, you know, level 10. It's like all of these side comments and half truths that we're telling. And I think that that's why conflict can be such a big thing.

Yeah, go back and listen to our previous episode on assertiveness so that things don't go unsaid and things get worse, please. But the focus of this podcast is on healthy conflict. And for some people, that might feel like an oxymoron or an impossibility, like, the idea that you could have healthy conflict just seems unrealistic. So let's talk about what is healthy conflict, and how would we differentiate what makes for healthy conflict versus unhealthy conflict?

Yeah, I just. I feel like it's all about the heart behind it. And so if it's just I'm having conflict or I'm engaging in conflict to be right, that would be something I'd say is unhealthy. But if I'm having conflict in order to bring about a healthier relationship or resolving tension that's in the room or it's something that I'm doing with other people's purpose or benefit in mind, I feel like to me, that becomes healthy conflict. You know, if it's something where I know that, like, and this. This happens, I know I'm not alone in this. But there are times when we're traveling to a holiday get together. And my wife and I know it's going to be stressful when we get there. And we're sort of avoiding talking about it because we don't want to have conflict and we don't want to have to have that hard conversation. But engaging in that, you know, we're in the middle of our drive over there kind of conversation that can seem like conflict is actually done for the benefit of us to have a plan when we get there, this is how we're going to handle it. And so that's healthy conflict because it's looking forward to really a healthy outcome or something that helps us better manage what's going on in our relationship. And in our context, that's just something at least Amy and I engage with. And obviously it's not comfortable, but it is one of those things that we know it's a needed conflict in order to get to that point where we can manage everything that's going on.

Yeah. And at the risk of like, talking about something so current, and then you're always worried people in your life will hear you talking about it. I kind of had something like this just happened this week where, as everybody knows, we just had our big workweek and summit. And so you can get a little bit on people overload, especially around holidays and things like that. And so I can tend to get anxiety going into a situation if I haven't had enough margin leading up to it. And one thing that I communicated with John, even this week is I'm trying to figure out why I'm feeling tension and anxiety and kind of like this passive aggressiveness in me. And I was able to sit with that and realize, like, I don't have margin right now to engage in deep conversation. And because I deep conversation myself out last week, and I'm, like, feeling depleted and just being able to verbalize that and say it and then go into this weekend acknowledging that. So that when we do have our family down this weekend, I can just almost like, preemptively go in and say, apologize. Like, I am a little bit disengaged and exhausted from the week. So if I seem kind of lower on the conversation, that's why. And that has been a reoccurring theme going into our mixed family holidays, that sometimes I don't have that capacity because entering into a relationship where it's not, I guess, just, like, easy, you know, you have your people where there's. You can just sit on the couch and, like, it doesn't feel like anything has to happen. To make it happen. It just happens. And so when I go into those other environments, it can be really hard, you know, to. To be on. And so just being aware of that and like you said, Trevor, talking about it ahead of time, because more than likely, if you've had more than one holiday with your family, you know exactly where the trigger points are. It could be, oh, after everybody eats and has some drinks, that they're starting to talk politically or religion or, you know what, at Covid or any kind of topic. Or it could be, I don't like that there's organized name tags at the seats and I have to sit by somebody.

Wow.

Nobody's gonna be the boss of who I sit by and who I talk. But there's all these things that, like, those are real examples from my life. And I'm just like, if you know me, I'm like, I do not want to be told where to sit, who to have conversations with. And so just, you know, thinking about that ahead of time and like, mentally rehearsing what is, what is okay. And that we don't have to get worked up about. We just recognize it's not our way, but we're going to be fine with it. And then what are the deal breakers? If. If Uncle Billy Joe is like, yelling at my daughter, that might be a bill, a deal breaker for me. And we talk about that, and we talk about what we'll say if that happens and what we'll do if that happens. So learning to let things go that are not a big deal is. Is going to be huge. And then we can just, like, excuse ourselves from getting worked up about it at all and not putting any drops bucket and just realizing, like, that's the way they do it. It's fine. We already mentally rehearsed this.

Yeah.

Sitting next to somebody I don't want to sit next to or.

Yeah, Billy Joe. Well, and I love the way you guys are talking about kind of being prepared ahead of time, thinking through situations before they happen. And as often as we can do that. Great. But I also. The side I was thinking of. Many times, I think holiday conflict comes upon us in a way we just did not anticipate. You know, it's the. Everybody's getting ready for church, and there's three different families and there's no one. There's not a good schedule of the bathroom, and people aren't getting in, and now they're getting tense with each other. Like, no one really thought ahead about that. Suddenly it's just happening. So in the moment like, what makes for healthy conflict? There's two things that came to mind. One is just for yourself, having some rules that you're aware of that you practice when it comes to conflict that, you know, like, I'm not going to resort to name calling. If I feel that I'm starting to raise my voice. I'm going to excuse my. I'm going to even say, like, I need to step away for a minute. I'm going to take a time. I'm going to. I've heard you talk about it, Trevor. I'm going to practice some deep breathing before I reengage. I'm going to. Some people account to a certain number before they speak their mind. Yeah. If you just have a few guardrails like that in mind that you know ahead of time for the whole season. Like, okay, if conflict comes up and it catches me off guard, I'm feeling attacked or suddenly voices are getting raised. Here are some things I'm going to practice. I think that can help conflict stay in the healthy realm. The other thing that comes to mind for me is really what is the aftermath. You know, going back to the Hallmark movies and by the way, if Hallmark movies was anybody's drinking game for eggnog, they are going to be really downing the eggnog by the end of this episode in a Hallmark movie. Like I said, it's that aftermath of coming back together, talking it out. The truth gets on the table, people come to an agreement. And obviously not every conflict will have that resolve to it that a movie can have. But I think when you're caught off guard by conflict, maybe you get emotional, maybe your voice gets raised, you say things you regret. Unhealthy conflict gets swept under the rug. Or it's just like, we all just move on and like, oh, this is what happens every year. She yells at him, I yell back. We all get involved, people leave angry, and then it's like, see you next Christmas, and we do it all over again. Well, that's unhealthy.

Yeah.

What would be healthy is the next morning a phone call or, hey, could we grab a cup of coffee? Last night? I don't like how it went and I'd like to own some things. It's approaching the right person. I think sometimes holiday conflict is because people are talking around each other or about each other and. And not to each other and able to speak the truth in love. So to me, that's maybe the biggest piece. If you find yourself in conflict and you weren't prepared and you don't Respond well, which sooner or later I think all of us will say, I didn't respond well. Yeah, it's what do you do next? What's your aftermath? What's your follow through?

And one things we haven't talked about too is just like, it's how you do it also makes it healthy or unhealthy. If it's like you, Uncle Billy Joe, you're being an idiot and I hate it when you do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, well, that you know, you know you're gonna create a rise in someone else, you know, when you do it that way. But if it's like, listen, I just want to put it out in the room. I really am not comfortable being told where to sit and who to talk to. There are people in this room that I don't get to see very often and I want to sit down and talk to them as well. And then just leaving it there. I mean, I think healthy conflict is also being open to the other side of the perspective and the conversation. And so if it's combative, probably not healthy. But if it's an open handed, still sharing your opinion and what you think and feel, I think that's helpful.

Yeah. And if you, I mean, from both perspectives, like the person who needs to engage in the conflict and the person you're wanting to talk to, if you have the understanding of that, you know, it's for under. It is for understanding. I think that takes a lot of pressure off if you're not trying to change somebody else's perspective. But there's been times, even within work, which I, I would hope that it was considered healthy conflict where I don't agree with something and I'm able to say I don't expect a change to happen here. I mean, it'd be great if it did. But at least if I verbalize this is my thoughts and feelings on this, like, I feel good that you at least know that this is how I'm feeling and thinking about that. And I just wanted you to understand my perspective, just like putting it out there, that this is my perspective, this is how it's impacting me, this is how I feel. But I'm not here to try to make you change that, you know, So, I mean, unless it's like something where you have to have a hard boundary. Yeah. Okay, so. Well, what if we're someone who is conflict avoidant? That's not me. Is it possible to handle conflict in healthy ways when we try running away from it?

Often you know, I think part of the reality is that a vast majority of us are conflict avoidant, at least in some area of our lives or with some people. I've. I've done all kinds of job interviews and conflict comes up. How do you handle conflict? And people almost always say something like, well, I'm not someone who naturally likes conflict. It's like, yeah, you and all of us. I would be actually nervous if someone said in an interview like, oh, I love conflict. I just get in there and I mean, sometimes that's because they're an unsafe person. And if they're looking forward to conflict, it's like, okay, what's going on here? Because really what creates or defines conflict is its, um. It's awkward. Yeah, it's a challenging situation. People aren't seeing eye to eye. There's disagreement, there's strong emotions. Like, those aren't things that any of us really gravitate towards. Uh, and so if you're feeling like I'm, I'm kind of conflict avoidant, like, welcome to the club. And that may be the starting point, just to take a deep breath and go, you know what? It's okay that I don't love this or want to do it. It's a hard situation. And there's. There's not an easy way to deal with hard situations. Yeah, but you can take a difficult situation and look for a better outcome. And so what I would encourage, if you just feel like, man, usually I avoid the conflict, usually I just run away from it. It never gets better, would be to ask yourself the question, what's at stake here? To identify, is it really worth it and why? To lean into this conflict and to seek a good outcome, to seek healthy conflict. Because I think there is another side of this. You know, for my wife and I, around the holidays, there have been a few certain situations that in our 23 years of marriage now, we have attempted to lean into some areas of conflict in family situations. And regardless of our approach, it has not gone well. And so there are some places we've asked that question, like, what's at stake? Is it worth it? And our answer right now is it's not. We don't have any confidence that things will get better if we continue to address this. And so we have found ways to have healthy guardrails and avoid those situations or those people. And you might be there as well. But hopefully, if you can see the other side of man, what's at stake is we could actually have a stronger relationship. Things could actually get talked about that no one seems to talk about. There could be a better connection between my spouse and I to be on the same page about this issue. So if you can see the win or the hope, then I think it gives you the courage to lean into it and look for. How can we take something that is hard and look for a good outcome out of it?

I think with that, too, if you're listing out. Here's what came to mind is listing out triggers, because Ashley said it at the top. We know the situations that are going to be triggering to us if we've ever been in this context before, and then asking the question. And I'm not to rain on, you know, Billy Joe, but let's say Billy Joe. That relationship is totally worth it. You know what I mean? It is worth the effort that it takes. List out with like. And sometimes it helps to just list it out with your spouse or with your family member, but writing it out, okay, so I know that I'm gonna stop using Billy Joe because I want people to take me seriously. But this individual who's on my family, this is worth it to me. And these are the things we tend to get into conflict around religion and football and politics. And so if those things come up, I am going to commit to sitting in that moment. I'm going to say, this is worth it. So I am going to engage in that conflict if it comes up. But then there are other relationships, like you said, Nick, where it's, like, not worth it. And so it's like, if, you know, Grandpa brings up how things were better in the Bush administration, it's like, all right, I'm not going to touch that, because that relationship isn't worth it to me right now, based on safety and boundaries. So I think listing things out, gosh, you're going to end up with, like, a spreadsheet of, like, everyone in your family. And whether they're worth it or not, one of those flowcharts, do not let them see that chart. But I think that that's still helpful because there's mental rehearsal wrapped up in that, too. And it helps you identify. This is where I should engage. This is where I shouldn't.

I think the mental rehearsal is so big because I also have a. You know, like, you have people who maybe haven't worked through their own triggers and traumas and health and recovery. They have not done any work like that. And so they're the ones that. It's always somebody else's fault. They're not going to take ownership. And that's sad to say, but that's reality. And so you kind of can have two tracks. I mean, I was joking about having a flow chart, but seriously, if you're able to go to somebody honestly and share your feelings and use I statements and. And. And they're receptive and you're able to talk through it and make a plan going forward, like my mom and I did when, you know, she wanted to badger me over and over about certain topics, I'm like, can you just tell me once and then, like, give me the dignity and respect to choose as an adult after that and when we can agree to that? Then I stopped avoiding conversations with her because I was able to remind her, like, you get your one time, and then I get to be an adult and make the decision. Now on the flip side, I have another family member. That way overstays the welcome. Like, will want to stay here, but then, like, ends up being weeks. It can be verbally abusive to me and my children. You know, just like so many things that are very, like, unsafe, abusive, addict behaviors. And I love this person. But when I tried to have the conversation of, like, I need a time frame. I want you to be welcome in my home, but I need to know when, because we have a routine. I work from home. I need privacy with my work. You know, when you come, I have to put my kids out of their room. And I don't want them really being out of their room for an indefinite amount of weeks because it causes them anxiety. I would love for you to come to the holidays, but I need to know what this looks like. Like, are you going to be here a month or are you going to be here three days? And when that wasn't received well at all, it was like, oh, you with your big boundaries and your house that you can't share with people. And, you know, it's like, oh, okay, this isn't safe. And so I had to put the boundary up of until we can have this conversation and you can respect that I'm running a family here, and I work from home and I love you to pieces, but I need to know when you're coming and when you're going. And I need to know that you're not going to get verbally abusive with me or my kids in order for you to stay. And until we can have that conversation and agreement, you can't come. And that sucks that I have to say that. But that's the. That's the line I have to draw. So I think it just, you know, it so Much of it depends on the other person of how the relationship's going to move forward. And then just big picture with going into the holidays, you, you can have Thanksgiving, like for us birthday season starts in September and then everybody October and then November and December. So it's like this four month stretch of holidays and birthdays. And so John and I have to lay all those out and say we need breaks in between. We cannot do all those things. So which ones are we going to do this year? Which ones are we going to do at our house? Because that's a different level of energy used. And then like with Hanukkah because we have two different like religions in our family, it's like there's so many things in December and so we really have to preplan scheduling margin. And then you enter in your kids Christmas things and work Christmas party. So it's a lot of planning going into the season.

Yeah.

And I think, and I would say what you're doing with that family member of setting that boundary and maintaining that is healthy conflict. I think you're already getting into the next question of what are some of the outcomes? And it sounds like the first one is sometimes it doesn't go great. Like sometimes you do get verbally abused. But what, like let's talk about some realistic what can happen outcomes when we handle conflict in a healthy way. But then also like let's talk about what we hope and what we have seen when it's handled well. Like what are the best case scenarios too?

Yeah. And I guess what you alluded to, Trevor, you know, even though this situation may not turn out the way we want it to, it doesn't mean that we didn't handle conflict in a healthy way. And I remember reading this book and it was like, you can either deal with guilt because you feel bad for telling that person no, or you can say yes. And then you deal with passive aggressiveness and resentments and these bottled up things that end up like eroding your relationship anyways. And so I, I do deal with, with guilt when I tell somebody no or have a boundary. Another example was what are we all doing for Father's Day? And it's like, well, John just got back from a fire assignment and what he wants to do for Father's Day is go fishing with the kids. So we're not really going to do a big thing. And the comment I got was, oh, the Jamesons want to have their own Father's Day that we're not invited to. And it's like, oh my God, gosh. Like, my husband just wants to go fishing with his kids. Like, why is that so bad? So healthy conflict, you just can't. You do what you can in a healthy way, and then how they respond is completely up to them. And it may determine what the next steps are. But I find that healthy conflict helps you love better. Because even with my person that can't stay the night until they can agree to these things, I. I do broken record. And so it's like, I love you. You are always welcome here. But I need to know these things, and we need to be able to agree on these things. But I love you. I would love for you to come for Thanksgiving. And it's just this broken record. And, and they may try a new approach. I'm saying they because I don't want you to know if it's a boy or girl. Not because I think they're a they, but they, they may try and never.

Yeah, we were really confused.

Go ahead.

But no, they may bring it up again or try another approach or think I forgot and be like, so it'd be great to come see, you know, the kids for Thanksgiving. It's like, okay, but we need to revisit this conversation. And it's broken record again. I love you, but I need to know. I need for my own peace of mind. I can't have this indefinite thing hanging over my head of how long you're going to be here. And so that I think it just frees you to love them more. Because before I was bold enough to have these conversations with my mom, my dad, my in laws, my friends, you know, I would just avoid conversations and just not answer the phone or make an excuse. And, and that feels gross. Like when you're lying about why you can't attend something or why you can't have people Uber, it just doesn't feel authentic. And you don't feel like you can truly love that person. There's, there's a freedom in being able to say, I love you so much, and you can't stay at my house more than four days, but I love you so much. So what are some other alternatives?

Yeah, well, and that's a lot of wisdom in that, to recognize that time does not heal all wounds. Because I think some of us do that with conflict. Like, well, it didn't go well at Christmas. We all just kind of moved on. And then six months later, they asked for the same thing. And I make an assumption that, well, it's been a while, maybe this will go better. And it's like, no, if you didn't ever really get a chance to work through that conflict, then it's, it's going to still be there, it's going to come back up. And so I think standing your ground and being that broken record, that's a really great idea. What came to mind for me, like what makes for healthy conflict or what are the outcomes? I think if it's people who are committed to trying to do healthy outcome together, like you and your spouse, you and your kids, close family members, if there's a mutual commitment to, hey, we know we're not always going to see to eye to eye, but we want to do it well. An outcome of that is people feel heard, they feel like their opinion was considered and that it was brought into the conversation. They feel valued for where they were and they feel like there was an opportunity. You mentioned it, Trevor. For that give and take. That even if maybe an initial thing doesn't go well afterwards. There was give and take, there was, help me understand. Let's share what we were feeling. Let's try to think this through from another angle. And so the outcomes of healthy conflict can be stronger relationship, a firmer sense of being a team, being on the same page. And that's obviously the goal. Now on the flip side, if it's with people who are not necessarily committed to having healthy conflict, you might not be able to look at the relationship at all. You might just need to look at yourself. And I think the outcome is feeling a sense of peace and not regret that I did say what I needed to say. I took the step I needed to take for my health or for the good of my family. And maybe it didn't go well with that person, but I'm proud of the way I approached it. That in and of itself, if you look back at conflict and have even a small sense of pride of like, wow, that was way better than I usually handle that. That's a great outcome because you're seeing growth in yourself and that's always a positive thing.

Yeah.

And it's just, I mean, it's a good time to remind people that you can control what you can control. You cannot control people's responses, but what you can control is how you handle conflict and managing your own self, which is a beast in and of itself.

Yeah. So let's lean into that situation a little bit. We've all been kind of alluding to it where we're trying to do healthy conflict. But that doesn't mean the people on the other side of it are also committed to healthy conflict. And so how do we handle these situations where maybe we feel like we did some things right, but the other person is not open to responding in a healthy way. What should we do then?

Yeah, there's. Gosh, there's just so much to this. Um, I wrote down a few things, a few different thoughts, and they might not apply to every single situation. But I know in those situations, if you have an ally, whether it's your spouse or another family member that you know is a safe person, having them around or like, knowing you can go to them if conflict happens and someone's not handling it well. And I think kind of with that, like, have a. Even if you need to rehearse it in front of the mirror, have like a phrase that gets you out of the conversation. Like, if it's getting uncomfortable and they're not handling it, just like, you know, I'm really sorry I brought this up. I'm going to go get something to drink or I'm going to use the restroom or. I don't know, something like that could be a helpful tool. But I also think if you have some time to plan ahead, like, pick out who you know doesn't handle conflict well and try not to engage in conflict. I mean, if it's something that's impacting you and other people pretty negatively, like, again, having an ally there might be helpful that you can come to someone and try to present it, you know, on a multiple people at the same time. But also just picking your spots. Like, if everyone's yelling at the table and that's the time you decide to bring up this one thing that you hate about Billy Joe or whatever, it's like, no, that's probably not the best time to do it. Like, you need to find a time. And even as I'm saying these things, like, this is a really difficult situation. It's not easy. There's not a perfect way to handle it because there's so much dynamic involved with the individual and the setting and the history that you have.

Yeah, I think you're the. What you're saying. Timing is so right. I remember at the, you know, I was always kind of like the matriarch of my family. As soon as I turned 18 and moved out, it was like, oh, we're going to Ashley. She's gonna do everything. She's gonna, like, host the Christmas and make the turkey. And I'm like, just this teenager, all stressed out of my mind with these babies running around. And. And I remember it wasn't until I was, like, 27 or something, where I finally got bold enough to be like, I cannot do all the cooking, cleaning, shopping for these events. And I. And I understand now that I kind of am the ringleader on hosting things, and it doesn't bother anymore. My sister just texted me and said, it's time for us to put our vacation request in. Are we doing things for Christmas and Thanksgiving? And I said, yes, take both days off. We'll definitely do something. And it felt good to not have this, like, trigger of, like, they always rely on me. I was, like, so happy that that was, like. It was. It was joyful to be, like, I get to provide a place for my family because they see me as that person. And so it was such a different mindset of, like, I get to offer this to them. But it was. It was a whole process. And. And I remember at the end of one year, I was so mad because my family didn't help me clean up. They didn't buy anything. They didn't make anything. I've got the roaster going in the oven. And I was just so angry. And I thought, okay, I'm not doing this this year. And it wasn't the time to do it then and, like, ruin everybody's holiday. But the next year, I was able to say, before we even start, like, asking me what's going on? I really need everybody to contribute. And they were fine with it. You know, it was not the way that I wanted it to be. And so I realized I actually had to let go of some control issues because when they would show up with the food, I'd be like, well, that's not how I would do it. And then I was like, okay, this is. This is partly them and partly me because I have control issues. And. And. And I just realized, like, it's. It's so much more enjoyable to just let people show up the way they want to show up and do things they want to do and. And not worry about every detail being the way that I want it to be. So, yeah, just thinking about that, like, maybe you have a little. You told me the other day, what is it called? After you have a thing and you do, like a. After incident.

After action report.

Yeah, after action report. Like, maybe you don't blow into your family that this year, but you go in doing the best you can, and then after the holiday, you kind of do an after action report and say, what can we do next year to make it even better? And with the intention of growing closer together. Because if we're constantly replaying negative thoughts or thinking the most negative things about the people we're hanging out with. That's going to poison us. And so, like, trying to find the things that are positive. Like, okay, we love John's family in this way, so let's lean into that. And then maybe in this other way, you know, we don't. And we have to put our family and protect our family. Like in the early years of marriage, if we're pregnant and go over there and it's great. But then by the time our kids hit toddler and they're, you know, 10 years old and 4 and 3 and they're getting into everything and it's stressful for everybody. Maybe that's the time we decide we break off and we start doing our own traditions at home. And that was such a good decision for us. And then holidays look different. Maybe Nan and Papa come by on Christmas after we do our morning thing and we don't try to go to their house for Christmas Eve or breakfast. Like there's a time when you start to grow your own family and do your own traditions and that's okay.

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate in your story, Ashley, like with your family, it sounds like you were able to approach some things that a lot of your family were willing to work with you. And we're looking at how can we make the situation better? I think for a lot of our listeners, they may find themselves in situations also where maybe that isn't being reciprocated and there is just hostility or anger or a lack of self awareness from someone that you're connected to. And I think part of that is the boundaries that we've been talking about. But really, honestly, sometimes we have to know when to walk away. And that doesn't mean permanently, it doesn't mean always and forever. But knowing where our standards are or maybe for our spouse, how to help support them, of having some awareness that this just is no longer good for us. We need to go or we need to not attend or we need to turn down the invitation. Because I think for some of us there is a tendency. We want to be a fixer and we want to just believe like, this year will be different, I'm going to try harder. And if it's not being reciprocated, you can't compensate for other people's unawareness or unwillingness to deal with conflict in a healthy way. And so some of it is making the choice of we're going to go to this party and there's probably going to be conflict with so and so. And it's probably not going to go well and I don't know how to make it go well. But we're going to do it as much as we can to minimize that and focus on the good parts. Because I think that's the reality of holidays and Christmas. Sometimes we go to things because of some people, it's the only place or time we can see them. But that also means other people are there that are maybe parts of the conflict. And so we face this real double bind of I either don't go and miss seeing someone I really want to see, or I go so I see them and risk that conflict that I don't think is redeemable. So those are hard choices and I think if you can talk through them ahead of time. But you know, Henry Cloud writes that book, Necessary Endings and the good that comes. You know, if we have a bush in our yard that's just growing like crazy and we go out and we cut off 50% of the branches, it seems like painful. Like, man, look at all these good branches that I just chopped off of this living bush. And yet we know in that scenario that the rest of the branches are all going to get healthier and they're going to produce more fruit. And there are some areas like that in our life that if there's just too much or too many people that have access to us, we may need to have some necessary endings to cut some out so that there's room for the good growth and the good relationships we want to see in our life. And so I think just have those honest conversations with yourself and people you love. Is this something we need to walk away? We need to not try to fix it. And if that's where you're at, do it with as much grace and humility as you can, but speak your truth and then let people react how they're going to react.

Yeah, I think what you said, Nick Trevor, somebody that you sent me had a question kind of regarding this. It wasn't specific to holidays, but it was like extended family issues, you know. And when I said, you know, my husband and I had to take a like three year sabbatical from his family. And she was like, I'm so relieved to hear people that work in this field and are believers and, and now have a healthier marriage say that because it feels so wrong. And you can hear, well, you're dishonoring your parents and, and you can hear these Christian things that, that make it seem like it's wrong. To put your foot down, but especially because our listeners are mostly in recovery or healing from betrayal, that in that time, that season when you're working on that, it can be even more sensitive because you don't know how family's responding. You don't know if they're blaming you. Or maybe you're just too raw emotionally in your marriage to have this extra task of managing outside relationships and has nothing to do with your family. It's just I don't have the capacity. And so giving yourself permission to say to your family, and this is the advice I gave her is you may need to say, for the next year, we're going to pull back from extra things, including holidays and social events. And. And we're just going to focus on our marriage because all of our energy needs to go on making our marriage right and trying to grow closer together. And so, you know, that's, that's what to expect for the next year. And I think that's okay that we don't do holiday things on top of maybe a very, very fractured marriage. Okay, so if we have a situation where conflict ends poorly, is it possible that it still could have been healthy conflict? Trevor kind of talked about this. How might we analyze if our response was healthy, even if the outcome was negative?

Yeah, I think this is really helpful to keep in mind, and we did kind of mention it, that just because the outcome isn't what we wanted or it seems to have gone poorly, it's entirely possible we may still have done the best we could. And to find some comfort in that, I think you got to go back to what your goals are for the conflict or the guardrails that you have to say, you know, this year my goal is not to resort to name calling and put downs. And if, if you look back at a conversation or conflict and see that I didn't do that, and normally I would have, or in the past I would have take some encouragement that I'm growing and I'm changing. So look at your response. I think of the New Testament verse that says, as far as it is up to you, live at peace with all people, that there is a recognition, there's a place where I end and you begin. And so I shouldn't be looking at your part in it. I really should analyze as far as it was up to me, did I do what I could to offer forgiveness, to ask for forgiveness, did I own what I need to own? And even if I love the way Andy Stanley brings this up in his marriage, talks about conflict, we all tend to underestimate our role in conflict. That's just human nature. It's our brain protecting us. And so if we were to draw on a pie chart, the percentage of the pie that we think is ours, most of us draw a piece. Less than half, we think, well, it's mostly them, but. And his whole point is to say, if you look at the piece of pie that you drew up, and this is what I can own, and he said, even if it's a tiny little sliver, if you will own that piece 100%, it will go farther towards resolving conflict than you ever imagined. And to me, I think that's healthy conflict. If I look at my slice and maybe I think my in law or my whoever or that person, like they did all the wrong stuff, then, yeah, I maybe said one inappropriate thing. Well, own that, seek forgiveness for that, look to do better next time with that. And if you're analyzing your response in that way, then to me, it's healthy conflict. Even if you maybe made some mistakes, own them, ask forgiveness for them, and then learn and grow, because then that's how we get better is owning those mistakes. Yeah.

I think too, the discomfort that conflict ending poorly can create in a relationship over time could actually be a catalyst for change in the right direction. And I'm not always. We're not making a blanket statement here, but if you do give it some time, there is a potential benefit down the road that if we get into this conflict and it was really uncomfortable and we both walked away really upset, just know that at least you had the conversation. At least you were honest about how you felt, or at least both of you were able to finally say something about this. You know, a lot of the stuff that I know for me that I've had conflict over is stuff that's happened in the past that we haven't talked about. And so maybe it's the first time you've actually talked about it and you yelled at each other and said things you shouldn't have and then both apologize and there's still no resolution. Just give it time that there may be some discomfort that that causes. Like, look, I really, I really do want some resolution. So I think you can trust that the Lord can use conflict to bring about restoration. Again, not a blanket statement. It's not something that's going to absolutely happen every time, but there is that possibility. I've seen that happen in my life.

Yeah. And one thing I was thinking about too, whether it's with your family that you're trying to engage in the holiday season with if that's what you're doing, or maybe it's just you and a spouse and your kids, or maybe you're a single parent and it's just you and your kids. Whatever situation it is, before the holiday season really kicks off, maybe it'd be a good idea to kind of like, have a little family powwow and be like, okay, you know, historically, we try to do all these things. We try to mesh together and marry together. All of his traditions, her traditions, what the kids want, what we see on Pinterest and Hallmark, and we try to do all these things. Maybe the kids don't care about it, maybe the parents don't care about it. Maybe your spouse doesn't care that you get up at 4 in the morning and do all these things and you're stressed about it because he's not appreciating it. And so have a meeting ahead of time to find out what is it that you really want, what is it that you really like. And so if I know that, you know, John's parents or my mom really value this one piece, then maybe I can let go of a bunch of other things that cause me stress because I'm burnt out. Or if I'm a single parent and I know my kids say, you know, after the divorce, this is the one piece that I really would like to stay the same. Or, I like when you do that. And then we can take pressure off of ourselves, and then it might be good too, as a family unit to say, okay, how do we make that happen? Can, like, what parts can each of us take? Because we can have a tendency where one person who maybe has the higher expectations is doing all these things and then getting angry when either it's not received well or they're not getting the warm, fuzzy feeling that they used to get when they were a child. And so, like, what do we want as a family? What pieces can we all take and own? And how can we make this great for each other and make it more of a collaboration versus one person doing everything? Yeah.

I was just thinking, if someone is doing an eggnog drinking game while they're listening, there's another one. She said Hallmark and then there's another one. You're welcome.

Eggnog is disgusting.

Oh, no, it is not disgusting.

Come on now.

How dare you?

The whole podcast. How dare you.

You are off the holiday podcast train now. Finally. Good for you. Right?

Okay. I figured out how to get out.

Figured out how to not get invited back.

There you go. For sure. Okay. If we have this mindset, we're going into these situations and celebrations. We're not, like, we are not going to engage conflict in an unhealthy way. We're going to manage it. We're going to do healthy. But then we get into the room and we realize we're not the only one who's able to have conflict and people are not handling it well. What should we do? Like, do we enter in? Is there anything we can do in that moment? Do we need just kind of, you know, grab a bowl of popcorn or whatever and just sit back and watch? You know, like, what's our role in helping people manage conflict in healthy ways?

This is tough because I tend to be the person in my family that is always in the middle of things.

It doesn't sound like you at all.

So I do think there's a balance. Like, I think there's a gift. If you have a personality where you have discernment and you're a really good mediator and you're able to ask good questions, like that leader type personality. I do think that's a gift. And there's certain people in the family that maybe are able to help people see each other's perspective, but that can be hard to. To know when to not get overly involved. Like, my initial thought would be, oh, stay out of it. Like, don't throw fuel on the fire. Don't gossip. Don't partner up and start scheming about Grandma May and how she always snaps at the kids for reading Harry Potter books or something like that. Like, you know, we, like, don't engage. Don't throw fuel in the fire. But at the same time, like, my mom didn't always have the healthiest conflict resolution because a lot of her childhood, like, she was never taught it. And so then when I would see conflict between her and, like, my brother or one of my sisters, and I've done all this recovery work, and I'm the only one in our little group that's done the recovery work, then I have that ability to say, can we just take a pause? What is it that you really want? You know, or, why are your feelings hurt? And so I. I think that's just a delicate thing to navigate. But I do think, you know, if you can do. Good question asking, like, instead of us blowing up here, can we just decide what, like, what's the purpose of all of us being together? What is it we want? You know, how can we do this without offending each other? But I don't Know if you can really do that without getting overly involved. So my. I guess my biggest piece of advice would be don't throw fuel in the fire. But then some people don't know what that means.

So create a rock, paper scissors tournament to decide if we're watching L for a Christmas Story. Yeah, that's a good way to solve it.

I. I was thinking about kind of the same thing, Ashley, that I think we have to be aware not to be a fixer, because sometimes we're fixing it because of our own discomfort with conflict or we want to control the situation and other people. And so some of it's learning to be okay in uncomfortable situations if it's not about us. And then if we do see an opportunity, I think asking permission is key. Like, hey, would it be okay if I said something? Would it be okay if I shared a perspective? I know this isn't, you know, I don't want to get in the middle of this. I'm not involved, but could I share something I'm seeing or that I've heard? And if they say no, like, great, back away. And like, okay, sure. What do you want to say? You know, to try to offer a perspective can be helpful, but usually only if it's wanted or invited in. So be careful with that. What I do think we can do two ideas. If others are in conflict, but it's not about us. Number one, just look at how you could help manage the environment. Because people in conflict get very myopic, meaning all they can see is the conflict. They're starting to get amped up and they're focused in on it, and they might miss that this isn't an appropriate time or place for the conflict. So I can think of an example in our family where two people are in conflict, not involving me, and I had to step in, and I really felt responsible to say there are some little ears in the room that I don't think are ready for this conversation. Would you like to go to another room, or would you like me to take them and go somewhere? And I phrased it intentionally in that way, like one of those two things is going to happen because you're not having this kind of conversation with my kids in the room. And maybe they're not even your kids. Maybe it's just there's some kids there and people aren't aware. We're starting to say some pretty serious things, and little kids are like, oh, what's going on? So managing that environment or even saying to people in conflict, like, hey, the rest of us are trying to enjoy a game here. Would you mind maybe walking outside and talking through what you are? Or do that, as you said, Ashley, like, finish that conversation another time. Because it, you know, it's not. This isn't the time or place, and maybe you don't see what's going on here, or, you know, maybe they're arguing and the roast is burning, or they're just blind to their environment. So I think you can help because you're more aware of the environment. You could help maybe say, hey, here's a better way. Could we try this? The other thing you can do is offer support, and that might be particularly like your spouse or your family member if you know they're in the middle of something, like, hey, do you need a breather to go for a walk? I can make sure I watch the kids. Or I'll cover for you. Or I'll, you know, if they're doing dishes, let me step in and finish the dishes. Why don't. Why don't you go sit down for a little bit? If you're aware that I could offer something that if someone in conflict maybe needs that space to get away or get a break or take a breather, I could be the one to offer and step in so that they have space to maybe find a healthy outlet so that they can come back in and deal with the conflict better. So rather than trying to fix the conflict, maybe you could just see how might I be a support to the people that are in it in a way that could increase the likelihood of a better outcome?

I think one of the things I struggle with the most, because you hit it on the head, that I get uncomfortable watching it. And so for me, I think, oh, I'm gonna say something funny to lighten the mood. And that's like throwing an emotional grenade in the middle of what's happening. And it tends to go really, really bad. So I would just say.

And then you become part of the conflict. You always do that. What's wrong with you? Yeah, exactly.

So just don't do that. But I think that that's. There are so many things we can do to make it so much worse. But from what I'm hearing from you guys, there are a few things we can do to at least offer ourselves as a support, something to help. But a lot of it's going to come down to reading the room, too. To what you're saying.

Reading the room. You made me think of something, Trevor. Like I said, I have somebody in my family that can be very Explosive. And one other angle I thought is sometimes if you don't say something and you know that what's going on is wrong, then the person being attacked feels betrayed by you for not stepping in. And so I do think there's that call of, like. Like you said, Nick, protecting the children. But sometimes there's. There's. There's an appropriate time to step in. And even if you don't go, like, head to head with that person who maybe is being abusive or stepping the line, but that you go up to that person who's being attacked and you say, I'm sorry this is happening to you. Let's go on a walk and at least just verbalize that. Because, I mean, there's so many studies, right. I think there's a name to it, is like, when you're watching something really terrible happen to somebody and you don't say or do anything, how awful that is. And so I know we're talking about varying levels. Like, we could just not like name tag placements, but in some situation, it is genuine abuse, whether physically, verbally, sexually, emotionally.

Yeah, totally emotionally.

Right. Where there may be something of like, this needs to stop, or I'm calling the police, or I'm sorry that happened to you. Let's go. So depending on the level, we need to make sure that people who are victims feel supported, too.

Yeah, that's a great point. That. Particularly if there's a situation where someone in conflict is clearly at a disadvantage in terms of age, power, relationship status. I mean, if there's one person in the room kind of being ganged up on by several others in an argument, it's like, whoa, I. I don't think we need to attack. So and so right now, they're really being kind of isolated here, or an adult saying maybe something to a minor or a child, or if to our spouse, because like, hey, we're one. And when you attack my spouse, I need you to know you're making me feel the same way. So places where we can create that sense of team and support for maybe the person that is at a disadvantage because of their age, their family, relationship, whatever it might be. So, Ashley, let's kind of wrap up with this. When it comes to conflict, I think for some people, this feels like a separate category from our recovery. You know, over here, we've got our recovery and our groups and the healing and trying to change behaviors and fix my marriage. And then over there, like, yeah, yeah, conflict and holidays, all that. Okay, well, why would we say that handling conflict in a Healthy way is an important part of our healing and recovery journey.

Yeah, well, I know, I know. I shared before on previous podcast episodes where John left me on Christmas Eve and then, like, didn't come back, like one o' clock in the morning. That was so traumatic and devastating, not only to me and my children, but we were in the midst of recovery and healing. And when all, like your bucket is only so big. So when all this tension is building, and especially it being condensed during the holiday season, it doesn't matter if it's conflict coming from your family or for, for work, and then throw on top of this, this huge marriage fracture, things can really hit the ceiling. And so it's important, you know, we teach a very holistic approach. Like in our unravel group where you have women addicts, we're like, sleep matters. What you're eating matters. And so I think you alluded to it earlier, Nick. If we're out of a routine because it's holiday season, we might not be going to the gym, we might not be getting enough sleep because we're freaking out about the house being perfect. We might be overspending because we want everything to be perfect. We want to buy a gift for everybody. So then we have financial stress, we have lack of sleep stressing our body, eating terrible things during the holiday, too much sugar, too much, you know, too many carbs, and so diet and then relationship conflict. I wanted to put together with that, like, decision fatigue, where you're feeling drained because you're making a lot of extra decisions during the holidays and financial things. And, and then to throw that on top of an already rough marriage is just, just like a recipe for disaster. And so when I, when I go back to the, the comment about decision fatigue, if we can pre plan as much as we can so that we're not being drained by all these decisions in the moment. And if we can schedule margin of like, recovery time so that we can get back to kind of like a base level before going into another event or holiday, then we'll be. We'll have more capacity to deal with our spouse in a way that's not so triggering. And I know that when John left me that one Christmas Eve, it was like in the moment. It was like, well, the kids and the house and so much cooking and, you know, and it's like that really wasn't what it was about at all. The next year, we were able to very, very clearly recognize that he was having built up anxiety and stress about seeing his parents about entering the holiday season. And it was just kind of coming out and landing on a. And so, you know, those are things to think about the next year of how to avoid those things.

I think too, someone who's early on in recovery really quickly realizes once they've started the recovery journey that avoiding conflict or the pain or discomfort that conflict causes is what led us to acting out and becoming, you know, addicted to sex or pornography or having affairs or whatever it may be. And not that betrayed partners can't feel the same way they absolutely can. Avoiding conflict can very easily and often does lead us to unhealthy behaviors, whether it's super hyper damaging or maybe something that seems a little bit less of a big deal, like overeating or procrastinating, things like that. So I think that the reason why this is so important is because, like, managing conflict is a double bind in this holiday season, that if we choose to do the hard thing, it sets us up to manage things in a healthier way. That we're not running away from things, but we're proactively leaning into it. So I definitely think handling conflict is a really big piece.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Unresolved conflict or conflict handled poorly is what drives us down the faster scale. It's what drives us towards needing something to cope because we didn't find a healthy outlet. So now we need something else to deal with what we're feeling. Whether it's alcohol or food or sex or whatever, you know, gaming all the things that we've used, it's driving us towards it. But healthy conflict, like, teaches our brain that I can do hard things and learn and grow because of them. And ultimately that's what recovery is all about. It's learning to do that the right thing is often the hard thing. That the challenging things in front of me, rather than avoiding them or shrinking back from them. That I have the courage, with the help of God and others around me in community, to face those things and to walk through them to a better place, rather than running away and going to my old coping pattern. So this is just one of the areas that we're saying, God, I need to learn a new way of doing life. I need to not just stop an old behavior, I need to do life differently. And part of that is I can do hard things through Christ. I can face those conversations, I can face that person, I can face that difficult part of my past or the unhad conversation, and with God's grace, hope that by going through it, it really will change that. These patterns of conflict that many of Us can get in around the holidays. Don't just come back every 12 months. It's like, no, this happened a little differently this year and maybe next year even more so and more so until we might get to the place where our life is. The Hallmark movie. No, actually, I hope not. Because ironically, in the Hallmark movie most of the people are single, which is crazy. All these attractive 30something adults that are single and find each other and fall in love. I hope you're married to the person in several years that you're currently with because you've just gotten better and better and you don't need the relational fallout of the Hallmark movie to deal with conflict better in the end. So I, I think that's my hope is that as we get better at this, it does change the future. Holidays for the good. And we really see growth, which again, I think that's the goal is growth. And this is a place we really want to see it happening.

Yeah. And I mean, just to wrap it up like you can be healthy, you can manage this season in a healthy way and this can be a joyful time. And we hope and pray that our conversation today helps you engage with the conflict. Maybe you've been putting off or some of the conflict that it's just been an itch for a while and you realize you need to enter into it. And honestly, also we hope that you would be open to conflict that comes from maybe a family member coming to you also being open to that. But we just hope that this conversation is helpful and we do believe that handling conflict is very important during the holidays and on the road to recovery and healing. Ashley, thanks for being with us. And I mean again, we do just love how honest you are, even as something that happened very recently with you. So just thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.

Yes, thank you.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others and make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. Lastly, never stop being healthy.