340 - Addressing Our Shame (Principles of Recovery)

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello.

Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 340 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I'm a bad guy.

Billie Eilish.

Duh.

I feel like it's with the music ones where I like. There's a pause in the song and I start to enter into conversation. You're like, nope, Nick's still going, okay, drop back out, Pull back out.

Here we go.

Here we go. It's part of our friendly banter that, yes, you know music. Well, you tend to get those. And typically I'm. I'm willing to sing more than you're hoping I will. It is probably what's going on. You're like, okay, cut.

Good. You know what?

I already got it.

Move on.

I don't know if you know this. I've gotten feedback like, hey, guys, cut down your intros. And. And it's like. But you'd miss out on the gold that we have right here. This is a perfect example.

You know that button on your phone, it's like, skip. Just hit it a couple of times. You'll be into the episode because for some people, they're like, that's my favorite part. So we're sorry. We can't please everyone.

We can't make everyone happy.

We can't.

Okay. So speaking of. I guess, no, I'm not gonna try to do that. Anyways, we had Rodney Wright on, and we're in our Principles of Recovery series. We're in week two, and we talked about addressing our shame.

Yes. Loving this series. And you know, the title and the. The name of that song, I'm a Bad Guy, I think is a refrain that many people walk around with, and there is a part of their soul that says, duh.

Yeah.

Like in my trauma or my woundedness, I'm going, there's something wrong with me. I'm a bad guy. And when it comes out in addiction or hurting others, there's maybe a part. It's like, well, yeah, that's. That's who I am. That's what I do. I don't. I don't know how to overcome it. And we've maybe missed that. Those are messages of shame that, as we talk about today, may have gotten planted a long time ago. And rather than saying, duh, we need to be able to go, wait, where did that message come from? Because that's not who The Christ of the Bible and the God who made me says about me, and I believe those things are more true. So where is this message coming from? And, you know, unfortunately, we don't question those messages often enough. And, you know, it's a very catchy tune, so people. People might be singing it. It ironically. The song itself is about someone very troubled, you know, probably addicted, Abused.

Yeah.

And the words aren't great about the kind of life they're living, but I think that's a reality. Maybe for us. Our life isn't as overt as what those lyrics describe, but the internal messages can be just as. As violent about ourselves. And so that. That song, in an odd way, whenever I hear it, I again catch you too. And I kind of like the beat, but I. There's always a little part of me that grieves for the writer and wondering, like, is that. Is there some truth about her experience in this world that are being expressed in those lyrics? Because that, I think, does describe how a lot of people feel about themselves. And so, yeah, we live in a world that can be dominated by shame. And I think this is a vital topic that we really wrestle with and say, how can I invite Christ and others into healing this part of my story?

And even just. I'm just noticing now, even as you're talking about it, this is a topic you can talk a lot about because it's so prevalent, and it really is something that's so important to address our shame when it comes to the recovery journey. So let's get into our time with Rodney Wright on addressing our shame. Rodney Wright, welcome back to the podcast, man. Thanks for being with us.

Thank you.

Always honored to be here live and in person.

And in person. And for those of you who have been paying attention, we did have Rodney back after the ending.

You said this could be the last episode. I wasn't sure. I'm grateful for the redemptive work of God in all of our lives. And even the podcast directors, we're always. There's a piece of Rod that we could work with here.

We can work with it.

We can work with it.

We can work with it. All right, so we are now into January of 2024, and as we start the new year again, this is us going back to some of the basics of recovery. We're in week two of five week series looking at the key principles of the recovery journey. And today we're gonna look at one of the biggest enemies of recovery, which is shame. And shame is a topic that we talk about a Lot of. And it's for good reason. Shame is one of the most detrimental things to the recovery journey pursuing sexual health. So let's start with this. What is shame, and why is it so damaging to us and our health?

Well, I think that shame in many ways is rooted in fear. It's that sense of not wanting to be seen, not wanting to be exposed, not wanting for people to really know kind of who you are or what's going on inside of your life. So out of that, we kind of hide. You know, it was their first response in Genesis. You know, they went and hid something was. It was almost like a spell was cast or something made them not see their sense of worth and value. And so I think shame really speaks to that big lie. I don't know if I'm defining it, but maybe speaking all around it, it speaks to that big lie that says, intrinsically, you're not worthy of love and acceptance. Intrinsically, somehow your mistake that you made or struggle or pain or traumatic experience in disqualifies you from love and acceptance and the journey of healing. And so I really think, again, this is going back to. For me, sin is that lie that deceives our ability to see the truth about ourselves and the truth about God and how God views us and our human brokenness. And really kind of, you know, it taints the heart of the divine toward, no, no, no, step into the light. The exposure is only to heal you, not to destroy you.

Yeah. To me, the real problem becomes when what we do is translated into who we are. Because I think some would argue there are healthy dynamics of shame, in a sense, that when we do something that breaks relationship with God and others, I think we are intended to feel what some would call shame and guilt, and shame sometimes get wrapped together there. But when Adam and Eve, I think, initially felt shame in Genesis 3 over breaking God's one law, it says they felt shame. And several of the Old Testament prophets kind of call out Israel for not having any shame over her behavior of idolatry and adultery and turning away from God. It's like, is there no shame in Israel? And in that regard, shame is meant to be a response of, I'm feeling this emotion of having turned away from God and other people, and it's meant to be redemptive to bring me back to what I ought to do.

But.

But where it becomes dangerous, and we see it in Genesis 3, is that very quickly the shame we feel begins to define who we are. Because Adam and Eve's shame caused them to cover up and to hide from each other by putting on clothing and from God by physically hiding in the garden because they believed in doing something wrong. There's now something wrong with me. And that's the kind of shame that keeps us trapped and perpetuates cycles of addiction. Is when what I do that I do these bad things or wrong things or hurtful things or things I've promised God or others I wouldn't do anymore now becomes a sense of identity, of it's because there's something wrong with me. I'm the thing that is wrong. And as long as we're stuck in a thought pattern that there's something wrong with me and who I am, in a sense, we will act in accordance with what we believe to be most true about ourselves. And so if I am a shameful person, I will likely do shameful things because I just believe that's kind of a product of who I am. And until we can get into that root lie about our identity, our value and our worth, as you're saying, Rodney, addiction or any kind of problematic behavior is going to be really hard to change long term. And that's ultimately what we're after, is long term change, not just band aid approaches.

And you. Well said. I think there is some different thoughts between guilt and shame. Guilt is I did something wrong and I'm aware of it. And that guilt leads me then to take positive action. Shame is maybe I did something wrong and it cast a negative light on who I am and. And I'm less likely to take action. So in some ways, semantics. But I think the ultimate thing is that there is a negative piece of shame that entraps us and keeps us stuck and doesn't help us move forward in recovery. And so that's a part of just really seeing the clarity of our identity and grateful for groups and resources that people are there to say, we see you, we know you, and we love you, and there's a place for you to heal here.

He's already jumping to the healing. So we can't go that far. We'll get there.

This is such a big healing fan. It just oozes out of me. It's just premature healing happening already in the room here for sure.

Let's talk about some of the sources of shame. Like where does this tend to develop in people's lives?

Well, I think when I was a little kid, I remember the church lady saying, shame on you. That old adage. Or they used to say that as a motivator to try to help people Move forward. And I heard one person use the phrase shame off you, you know, as an antidote to that. But it could happen many times just as a little kid in our family of origin and how those family systems, how safe they are, how much they focus on growth, not necessarily perfection and sense of like, as a kid, how open were you when you made a mistake? You could go to mom and dad, they were the safest people. They provided a framework for you or school or siblings or whatever it may be. I think there can be just a lot of traumatic things that happen in life that somehow create fear in us where we don't feel like it's socially or culturally acceptable to be open about something. And that's where for me, there were so many wonderful aspects about my faith upbringing that I'm thankful for, but it wasn't perfect. So many great things about my family of origin, but it wasn't perfect. And my kids are going to say the same thing about me, you know, But I think just trying to be as healthy or move toward a healthy place as we can as individuals, as families. But I think many times it happens at a young age where we don't feel safe. And for whatever reason, the culture doesn't make it a safe place to move toward healing family, individuals, even religious cultures for leaders.

Yeah, it's funny, I mean, surely as a parent I have made my sons feel shame. But I've also seen moments where he specifically our almost seven year old, is at the point where he does something wrong and he runs away in shame. He feels it. He, you know, senses that. I think, you know, it's just. It's part of the fall, I think, in some aspects. But it's just, it is, it goes back to that belief that I'm not good enough and I'm now dirty and unlovable. And it's interesting too. What's playing out is the human condition of shame is my son does something that yeah, sure is wrong and we need to address it. But there's embarrassment that's also tied with that. And then running away from relationship. I want to be away. I don't want other people to see it. And there are times too, we go into his room, like, what's going on? Like, talk to us about what's happening. It's like, no, I don't want, you know, it's like shoving people away. And so I think in some ways it can develop just. And it's not like it's Amy and I's fault that Brady has felt shame. I Think that there's some of that.

Each kid can respond differently.

Yeah, but I'm confronting. I also think that some of that stuff can reinforce it. Like, you know, you have something, you make a bad decision and then, you know, I remember specifically with shame tied to sexuality, that story I've told of asking my mom what the F word meant. And her reaction communicated to me, what I interpreted was, it's not okay to talk about this. You should be ashamed about that, asking that question. And so shame almost puts this like identity statement over even themes in life. Not just me, but, oh, okay, this is something we should be ashamed about.

Yeah.

It's amazing how early in life those patterns can develop. In fact, brain research would suggest that some of these patterns of shame do begin before we have conscious memory of where it came from. And I mean, it's funny to me, like I can see it happening with my dog because we have had a dog now for three years. And early on, you in a sense shame your dog, if it poops in the house, eats your furniture. Like, bad dog. What? You know, and Bentley would get punished. And if I use that tone of voice, even now to my dog Bentley, like, his ears will droop, his head goes like, cone of shame. Yeah, he's internalized. Like, I've been a bad dog.

Right.

Right now I think the same thing kind of happens to us as human children that in part of parents trying to protect us and raise us and help us learn not to poop in the house. Things like that. We're told like, bad kid, don't do that, what's wrong with you? And in an ideal world, we would grow into healthy relationships that teach us to distinguish. You're not a bad person, you're a good God made person who sometimes does bad things. But most of us didn't have language for that, let alone in ourselves, in our. So we can hold on to those ideas of I'm a bad person, I do bad things, I'm dirty, I'm in the way, I'm unwanted. And maybe they were communicated to us even inadvertently as infants, as young children. And we just keep building on that structure because we don't have a perfect Christ centered culture around us that teaches us to distinguish our identity and value from those bad things. And so we just have these patterns and you can hear it in people's stories. And probably for those listening, if you've really worked on unpacking your story and you say, where can you first identify feeling like I'm not good enough? And they'll Go way back. And as they tell that story, it's like, was that the first time you think they felt that? It's like, well, probably not. It's just the first one I remember. And so we're carrying this message of, I'm not good enough. I'm unworthy. And it just becomes this elevator music in our soul saying, there's something wrong with me. And the beauty is, when we address it, man, it can be a whole new tune that plays in our lives.

Yeah. And as adults get healthier, we know how to respond to peers as well as kids, grandkids in a much healthier framework. And I think that's just growth in our humanity. I think, Nick, you remind me of that. I didn't poop inside the house, as far as I know, but I did in my pants growing up learning. But I did have a time where my brother and I, we share the story. Streaking up and down the neighborhood in the 70s as kids, and that's the first time I can remember feeling shame. And good parents love me. But it wasn't about training and guiding. It wasn't about saying, nudity is okay here, but not here. It was more of that, don't you do that. That's bad. That's wrong. That's evil, and trying to get that out of us. But I think it gave a message that I didn't really need or know how to process in that regard.

And it's interesting, too. Something that I've identified in my parenting is there are times when I have a big reaction that has far less to do with what was done and more of my fear that this may become a pattern where I've heard. I think it's Bob Vandermeer, one of our clinicians, talking about his son in the bath. Or I've even experienced this with my sons where they'll play with their penis, and it's like, whoa. What do you. Stop? Don't you know? It's like, he's 2 years old. He has no idea what he's doing.

Yeah. Natural curiosity.

Yeah. Don't get afraid of the pattern that may happen later. Like, be in the moment right now. And so what's interesting, though, is that big reaction can reinforce shame from our kids. And so I think that's something we have to be aware of, too.

You know, my daughter recently was doing the same thing, bathing our grandson and said, oh, it looks like you discovered God gave you a toy on the outside. You know, just ha, ha, ha, ha, tongue in cheek, but really just not Making such a big deal.

Totally.

But just, hey, yeah, God gave you nerve endings, and that's kind of how that is. And I think the more we don't are so reactionary, but move toward that educational base of appropriate, inappropriate. Yeah, but man, yeah, Bob hits it so right. I remember. I remember just my parenting being afraid. Being afraid, you know, that your kids are going to make wrong choices.

So let's look at this a little bit more in context of our sexual behavior, sexual brokenness. What are some ways that shame keeps us stuck in those behaviors?

Well, I think it gets us stuck because we're just afraid. Fear, you know, I go back to perfect love casts out fear. And I think just when you learn to. I have a secret and I got by with it and nobody knows, then I'm going to try to just manage this on my own. And I don't always ask what makes that make sense from our Adrian Hickman would say, or I don't really take a deep dive to say, hmm, I wonder why I keep doing this. I wonder if there's something underneath this that's driving me to cope this way. But I think it's just fear of being known. Shame just kind of keeps us in bondage to the fear of, again, if people know me, would they really love me? And then that sets the trap of addiction, and we just kind of keep running that play until what we're doing isn't working any longer, the pain gets too greater, or we get caught. And sometimes that's the best gift. It is. Because then we can turn and kind of start to begin to deal with the shame. And, you know, for me, either you're going to kill me or I kill you, but one of us is going to die here, you know, because I'm seeking help and moving forward to try to. To try to heal my soul in that regard.

Yeah, I think you're right on that. That fear of, well, this is just who I am, and I don't want to tell people or show people because then they'll reject me and I'll. I'll not only be stuck in a bad behavior, I'll be alone. And. And so we get in this pattern of I've got to put my best foot forward and hide all the rest and. And not let myself be seen or. Or. Or really valued for who I am. And yet that's ultimately what we need for healing and recovery, really, from any behavior. But I think particularly in something as personal and private as our sexuality, like, we need to be known and seen for who we are. But fear keeps us trapped. And we can think. I even hear it in people's stories that this battle like to not go back into the old behavior. They'll say things like, you know, I gave in because that's just ultimately who I am or what I do or what, you know, they misinterpret desire. It's like, well, because I have these desires or lusts and I give in to them. It's like, that just must be who I am. I'm just kind of a dirty person or I like those things. What's wrong with me? And no one has helped them challenge the assumptions they have that that's not who you are, that's not your identity. You're not living out your true God, given he didn't make you that way. There are realities of living in a broken, sinful, fallen world. The pain that happens to us as kids, the patterns we learn, but all of that. I love the language that Jenna Reimersma has used when she talks about all of us being made in the image of God and that sin is less about bad things, but it's like something covers over that mirror of our truly reflecting God's image in us. And that would be, I think, a good definition of shame, too, that this stuff crowds in and we can't see.

Who we really are, distorts our vision.

And then we get stuck in the patterns that kind of perpetuate who we think we are when it's not the truth.

Right?

Yeah. And the only way to get out of unhealthy behaviors is to admit that it's there and ask for help or seek help. And shame keeps us from that. Because at some point in our story, we learned it's not okay to talk about this. It's not okay to admit I struggle. It's not okay to ask for help. You know, And, Nick, you talked about it in our previous episode when we talked about isolation. Like, we're almost taught culturally that you can do this by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps on your own. The Lone Ranger. That's how we do it. When in reality, that's never the way God designs us to heal or become more sanctified. It's always in relationship with him and other people. But shame keeps us away from that. And I keep going back to what we've already talked about. It's fear. It's fear of rejection, fear of someone reinforcing. That is dirty. You are gross. You are unlovable. And, I mean, that's why we get Stuck is because we don't want to experience the same thing we've already experienced in life.

Another adage is, fake it till you make it. And I think that's such a big lie. We kind of say it. Tongue in cheek is a funny thing, but it's really a sad thing. Faking it doesn't help you or anybody else around you when you have to cover up and hide. And so the more we can learn to create authentic communities to say, this is where I'm at, and I'm either stuck or need help to move forward, boy, that's actually, to me, a really wonderful place, because I think that creates joy in the heart of the divine, because we're learning how to trust, and learning love is breaking down those walls to see our true identity.

So maybe one of the reasons we don't deal with shame as serious as we should, as we might be listening to another lie that says, well, this is just about me. It's only impacting me. And I don't want to, you know, bring it up, burden others. But, Rodney, what are ways that you have seen that shame impacts our relationships, our spouses, our kids? When. When we're carrying shame? How is that inevitably impacting others?

Well, Traci would just always say to me, what you model is more important than what you say. So sometimes if you don't even really see it. But. But I think for me, I've shared my story many times on the podcast, but I found sobriety from behavior, but still had a lot of shame connected to my sexual addiction or to pornography and acting out. And so, boy, that shame, I think, was a piece of my journey for a while. And I think it did affect my kids in the sense of just. I couldn't go there to talk about it as freely as I could, or it maybe impeded me from living in fear, I hope they don't, or walking on eggsh around that subject matter. And that's why I'm just going to go back to do a shameless plug. Shameless. Here's that word. But that's where, when I started Pure Desire in our local church in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho, and I shared my story with our congregation about my journey of healing 16 years ago. And then I led groups, and then the Christ in Nick began to speak. Whoa. The Christ in Nick began to speak to the brokenness in me and the Christ in Trevor, the groups of Joe and John and these guys, it really began to heal the shame of, like, wow, I can be loved. And it lifted for me. And so that's what I'm saying. And then guys would say, nothing has discipled me better in my faith in these seven pillar groups, because they've really found that, wow, I can be seen and known and love. And so it was community for me, that really healed that shame. And I think it does affect. I mean, you know, to hear one of my kids say, dad, I wouldn't be this long on my recovery if it weren't for you. Thank you for leading the way in your authenticity. I now can look at some of the things in my life and, you know, that's probably. That was probably one of my proudest days as a dad when my son could look me in the eyes and say that to me. You know, I'm farther along because of your authenticity. And you're being real. I mean, what more do you want? You know, that you can help your kids really know how to love themselves well and grow in that.

Yeah. You know, too, it's one of those things that our own view of ourself or even our. Our own family of origin can often get projected onto the Lord. And so it's easy for us to see. Well, if I can't even love myself, surely God can't love me. Or oftentimes shame would say to us, too. And I think it's the same thing in Genesis 3. They're running away because they're afraid of God, that God won't be loving to them even though they did this bad thing. And so I think that it absolutely becomes a hurdle to experience relationship with the Lord. It also creates secrecy and creates isolation and pulling away from community and relationship, which, if you've ever been in a relationship where you see that play out, you know, you may not know what's going on, but you feel that. You feel someone pulling away in relationship. And I really do think another way that it negatively impacts our community is that we're not able to be ourselves. And as we're able to be ourselves and use our gifting and the unique perspective, you know, maybe God has given us that other people are losing out on that. Like, you know, God has gifted us and designed us in ways that we're supposed to, like iron sharpening iron. This we need you to be.

You need nick to be 100% me.

It keeps me from being me, which keeps someone else from potentially growing and vice versa.

Yeah.

I think one other aspect of how shame impacts relationships is it really can twist relationships because of what we're trying to get from them. So if you Think about this being an identity issue and we're meant to find our core identity and who God made us to be and being made new in Christ. But I'm carrying around a false identity of I'm not good enough, I don't have what it takes. Yeah, I know for me as like a people pleaser and being something I really struggled with, what I was doing in those relationships was trying to get you to help me feel like I was good enough. More like I did have what it takes. And if I wasn't getting that from you, particularly if we were friends or you were my wife or, or people I was leading as a pastor, like I would find myself making decisions to try to pull that out of. Like am I enough? Do I have what it takes? Do you love me? Do you value me? Not realizing that ultimately that was a shame message that I was trying to fix through others.

Right.

That really needed to be addressed first with Christ. And others can be a part of our healing, but not if what we're trying to get from them is am I good enough or do I have what it takes? Like that has to get answered in a deeper way so that then when I'm in relationship with others, I, I know I'm good enough in Christ. And whether you think that or not, I mean, yeah, it's still going to bother me. I still have some people pleasing tendencies. But I don't need you to identify who I am anymore. And it really makes a difference.

You had the courage to take a deep dive and go there and ask those questions about why do I do what I do? Where's that coming from? And so your recovery, your groups, the things you're giving yourself to have really helped you in that process. And I think, yea, that you've invested in yourself enough to discover and learn and grow. And I think that's what we'd like all of our listeners to do is say yeah, you're worthy of help, go get it.

So let's talk about that then. When we've identified areas of shame, obviously there's shame that gets carried around sexual brokenness. What does it practically look like to address our shame? Like how do we attack it? How do we break it down? What are practical ways people can.

Well for me it's showing up around people that I can be real with. And so you know, your addiction maybe has a certain level of shame, but I found shame even around just parenting. And you know, Trevor, you mentioned this about Bob Vandermeer and just all of us that are parents but there's that. That sense of, like, I even felt shame sometimes about feeling uncomfortable feelings. Like when I just feel negative emotions. I don't want to say negative, but emotions that cause discomfort, and I don't want to feel those even. Even about this anniversary last year of my dad's death. 28th November was a year, and I was having a rough day, and I felt all kinds of grief, more than I even did the day he died. And I went to the Hillsborough Airport because I was working out of Portland at those times, and sat at the airport and watched his funeral and cried. And I just felt awful. And I thought to myself, old Rodney would have stayed in. I can't let anybody know I'm feeling this. And so I'm just looking for dopamine. So I would have looked and said, okay, where's the nearest dopamine? Right? And I didn't do that. I allowed myself to grieve. I called a couple of my buddies and said, hey, this is what I feel today, and I really feel it. And I don't want to, but I know it's good for me to let this out. And I was saying that because the next day I was talking to Tracy, and I said, you know, as I was reflecting on that anniversary of my dad's death, I really had compassion for young Rodney. He just didn't know any better. Whenever he had anything that made him feel insecure, sad, any kind of shame, man, he just ran to the nearest dopamine outlet and just tried to feel better instantly. And so grateful that, wow, we can still learn and grow, and I can even show up. And so even today, I called a friend, Martin from Canada, and we processed parenting together. And I was just so great that I could just show up and say, martin, hey, this is Rodney. Just want to do a check in with you and how you doing? And this is what's going on, but not have to pretend. So the more you can get around those kind of relationships. And that's why we just take such a big view about recovery movement and about the work of showing up and being real with people. And I'm grateful for our office here at Pure Desire. You know, back in 2023, I got to work there at the end of the year, and I really enjoy that. Of course, Nick was on sabbatical for a while, but I love this environment, and I found it to be really great because it's a place where we can just be real and honest.

I don't know if you know this, Nick, but He camped in your office the whole time.

And I gave him permission.

I did. Yes, exactly. I just dream what it would be like to be next to stumbling at. No, no, this is Nick's boots, not mine. This is not my seat.

It's just the space. I happen.

Yeah, it was great. But that's what I'm saying, Nick. Just being around people where you can do that and. And I think when you get that and you. You feel that it's okay to be real, man, it. It. It doubles down and reinforces that.

Yeah. I mean, for us, we can't underscore enough how important the group environment is, and particularly one that's structured like a pure desire group, where the expectation is that we're here to be real and go all the way to the core and not, you know, not just kind of play around the edges authenticity. When you show up in a group where, you know, that's not only invited, but even to a degree, expected. I mean, it's. It's like the classic AA group. It's like, well, if you walked in the room, it's because you got a story to tell and we're not here to just shoot the breeze, like, tell your story. And I think a pure desire group is that because when we identify those stories of shame, pockets of shame in our life, and we have the freedom to tell that whole story and that cohesive narrative of what led to what and seeing what's created kind of my patterns, that really gives us some tools to begin addressing it, to changing those messages, inviting others into the process. And, you know, I would say it's. It's ongoing. You know, I realize one of the things I'm dealing with is we have our oldest daughters in college now, and she's attending a private institution, which is expensive. And I can have shame messages of if I was only good enough as an entrepreneur, a businessman, investing my money, spending money like I should be able to pay for her college because she's really stressed about loans and finances and all that. And rather than just being kind of present with her, I find I can get really, really anxious. And I'm just now identifying in these months like, oh, it's because I hear a little shame message that does connect with some of my family's origin of being, you know, my dad pastoring a church of 20 people and having to work on the side, and I mean, them just scrambling to make ends meet. And some of those feelings of like, man, to be a real successful person is to provide for all my family's needs. And now that I feel like I can't because college is dang expensive, it's like, oh, is there something wrong with me? And just, you know, in those moments like, oh, we can learn a ton about shame and yet still have things that trigger it. So I think just staying aware of that and being able to process it with people and coming back to, that's not who I am. That's not my identity. But there's a reason I'm feeling this now. Let's process it and work through it so that I can be supported of my daughter as she makes these decisions. And there are hard decisions she'll have to make about how much loans she wants to take out.

But.

But if I enter into it with shame, it's just going to make the whole situation worse. Versus if I'm like, hey, I'm here to help. What can we do? Here's our limits. Financially, we can help some. Not much, but some we can do with. And, yeah, then we can figure out together what to do. So, yeah, I just. I'd say it's an ongoing process.

I appreciate you talking about that, Nick and your daughter. I just have to share this story. I was at Nick's house back in 23. We had our Christmas party, and I got to be around Carter, Nick's son, who's. He's like 6 foot 9. Not quite, but he's close to 6 foot 9. I've been 6 foot 9 and he's a swimmer. And so I came up to him. Carter. Carter's the older one, Luke's the younger one. And I said, carter, I knew you were. You were only like six foot one way back in first grade, you know, because he's so tall and so, you know, just really growing into. So I had a handsome, strong young man. But that sense of like, even in families, providing his dads or even in those little pieces, Nick, I mean, way to go. Because I think that just. It keeps us showing up and being real and giving voice to it and continuing to just grow. I mean, we may have voices that we fight all through life. I don't know that it ever ends, but we can all. We can. We can build a resilient muscle that's strong. When we hear it, we can identify it. Isn't that recovery? I mean, it's not like you're one and done. It's like, oh, I hear it. I know where I'm at.

I get out.

I don't stay in it. It doesn't affect me long.

I think the only Thing I'd add is just that shame seems to grow best in the dark. And the way to address it and to break free from it is to bring it into the light.

Yes.

Is in relationship. Being honest, I feel like is just one of the. And again, really scary. Super scary. Especially if it's a massive struggle you have or you know it's gonna hurt people when they find out. But honesty bring it into the light.

Yeah. Yeah. So let's say we're making some progress in that maybe we've done group or we're starting to have friendships where we're able to really open up and be real. And we. We maybe feel like we're getting some traction on shame. What are the ways we might identify? Just like we've been talking about that we could see shame creeping into other areas of our life. And how could we create a way of life where we were just continually working through our shame if it's something that might be with us, you know, as something we're working through for all our lives? What does that look like, Rodney?

Well, I go back to my recovery group takes me back right to seven pillars, and I talk to my guys about our commitment to change. What is it we're working on that creates self awareness in us? For me, it's like meditation, listening, prayer. That's a really great centering exercise for me to do every day. I did one today. I was telling Trevor I felt a little anxiety yesterday. So trying to figure out what that was about. Set in some listening prayer, just some meditation and just kind of getting ahold of some pieces of that. And I think the more you're just self aware is really a good tool for healing in general. What's that about? What's driving that? That I feel. And then with who or how can I process that in a healthy way? In our addictive behavior, we cope as we get healthy. We still have things that trigger us or that are difficult or that remind us of old patterns. But to me, self awareness has been such a wonderful gift of what I've learned. And so my commitment to change is all about creating self awareness. Oh, what am I doing to invest in me? How am I doing? It's that centering kind of exercise that I think is really important. And so that would just be one thing I would offer.

When I first went on my weight loss journey, I remember there were times we were still living with our in laws that I had lost, think I'd lost all the weight and I'd go to the. I'd go to the pantry. And I honestly would look around and see if anyone was near me. And I'd sneak Oreos. I'd eat like two or three Oreos and then, like, walk away. It's like, oh, no one saw me. And it's so funny. It's not funny, but it is. Because, like, no one was gonna turn the corner and be like, what are you doing? Get out of those Oreos. How dare you know? No one been like, oreos, can I have some? You know, that's the response. But yet I had so much shame. And what identified it for me was the secrecy that I didn't want other people to know about this. And so half truths, lies, secrecy, deception. That for me, when that starts to creep in or the desire to do those things, that's like, there's shame here. Like, it's very, very clear that I want to hide something here. And so we need to figure out what that is. And there have been hobbies or different things that I've gotten into that are not necessarily bad things, but there have been times where I feel like I need to keep it from my wife or not tell her the whole truth or is where it's like, okay, there's shame wrapped up here, and we gotta explore that. And so I think that that is how we identify. At least in my experience, how you identify shame is where are you feeling a pull to be secret or to lie or be deceptive? And then what are ways? You're like, what areas are you pulling away from relationship?

And I would say even secret with emotions. Hey, I say, nick, how are you doing? Trevor, how you doing? Because I really want to know. And we just say fine when we're not really doing fine.

Not usually. I usually say, how much time do you have?

Yeah, exactly. Well, and I think there's a real beauty in that too. Not just not secrets of behavior, but honest about what I'm processing right now.

Yeah. Because we think we always have to be okay. Yeah.

And I've been on trips with both of you guys where you, one or the other, we pull each other aside and say, hey, I'm processing this right now. Would you mind helping me navigate through this or thinking through what's going on here?

I think two areas that come to mind for me of kind of paying attention to where shame might be creeping back in. Number one is self talk, and two is anger. I think we all have some self talk messages maybe we're susceptible to. You're such an idiot. What's wrong with you? You're A loser. I'm worthless. I'm always going to be a failure. And there can be any number of things. I mean it could be a work meeting, it could be maybe some kind of exercise thing. You just feel like you're not improving in. Maybe it's a diet and exercise sort of thing. And if you hear a message going, oh, I'm so worthless. Or for me it's the, you know, what's wrong with you? And I have to pause and go, okay, first there's nothing wrong with me because Christ made me and I'm his and I'm sealed by his blood and kind of remind myself some of that truth. But then it's like, but there's something I'm feeling that makes me react this way and is it fear of failure? You know, whatever it is. So I think your self talk. We all maybe have some of those trigger words that our brain should go, wait a minute. I only say that to myself when I'm feeling some shame.

Right.

The other thing, anger. I think anger is a way of projecting or protecting ourselves from shame with, in relationship to others. That and I feel it, you know, most with my wife and family because they're around me most that when I'm starting to get an anger reaction it's usually shame based if they've made me feel something about me that I don't like. So I pushed back, you know, on them overreaction. And maybe I don't even say it out loud because for me I've. In the kind of worlds I've grown up in, I've learned to be a pretty contained individual. But I might have a lot of anger inside that I'm hearing and thinking things about you now that it's like then if I said them out loud it'd be very hurtful. But even there it's like, okay, wow. I don't think of that my wife or kids that way. I don't think of you that way. Where are those words and that level of anger coming from? They've probably touched on some shame. And rather than trying to fix them, it's an opportunity to look at how can I clean some stuff off of my mirror and because they've exposed something there. So just where is anger and self talk?

Does your anger ever come out in a tone, Nick? Tracy would say mine comes out in a tone. It's a tone that I take. You know, for me it can be.

A lack of tone. It can be silent like dad's. You might just quietly cleaning the kitchen and not talking to anybody.

That's a real thing. That's a real thing. My family also knows I grunt. I'll just like. Like that they'll make fun of me. They totally will. They'll walk around the house.

She says. Rod talks in staccato language. Just that, you know, she goes, I can just tell. You know, sometimes I get shamed when something breaks. Like last night I came home and a fuse was blown, and I did my three things. I know. And it didn't fix it. And, you know, I'm just. And. And I just kind of feel like if I was smart enough, I could fix this, you know? And I remember one time. Well, multiple times, but we just have a phrase that says, you can't have all the gifts. And it just kind of really. It helps. Just like when you're not good at something or something's not going the way you want, you can just say, well, Nick, you have so many other gifts that helping the whole world transform, so you're not good at whatever. You know, it's kind of a way of just lightening that load.

Something I just want to. Before we move on to the next question, is just knowing that a sense of curiosity, I think, helps in this arena if you want to create a life that is continually identifying and working on your shame. You asked the question earlier from Adrian Hickman. What makes this make sense? That is a great question to ask. Why am I getting angry right now? Why am I grunting around the house? Why am I angry? Washing the dishes right now? What's going on? That posture of curiosity will lead us to finding those answers, being able to identify it. Okay, so this is a good one, too. And I think this question is helpful because we. I know for sure it's a lot easier to see the shame playing out in someone else's life than it is for mine. If we see shame in someone else's life that's manifesting in a way that's hurting them or keeping them or limiting them from something like group member, spouse, can we help? Or is it better to just let them figure that out on their own? What's our role in that?

You know, I think you can help and by sometimes just creating an atmosphere of safety, and sometimes we create atmospheres of safety by our own vulnerability. So, again, just focusing on our own journey about some of the things maybe we're embarrassed about or some of the things that we felt shame over in our life. Again, it's all about timing and the right way to say it and when to say it. And how to say it, but I just think about authenticity and vulnerability, just even about this is what I'm feeling today. And I'm feeling angry, overwhelmed, insecure. So I think if you model that kind of atmosphere as a human being in your group or in your marriage or with your kids, I think that itself is a great way to open the door. Because then they would perceive, oh, dad or Rodney are my group leader boy, he was real honest about his challenges of being a parent. And so that was really eye opening just to hear him say that. And so maybe you're offering a pathway for someone else to walk down.

Yeah, I think when we're feeling maybe stuck in some shame, if we think about what's the kind of person I want to go to, who would I like to share that with, who do I feel would be present with me, carry a burden, not criticize or make light of, but just be in it with me. And then to kind of turn that to say, well, how can I be that for someone else? How can I be the kind of person that when they're ready, they know I'm safe? And that may be saying something of just like, hey, it's seems like you're wrestling with some stuff, and I just want you to know whatever it is, I'm here would love to support you, care about you. And I think the more we know someone, when it's a spouse or a close friend, we may have a pretty good idea of what some of their shame messages are. And to be able to maybe with curiosity, bring up like, hey, I'm wondering if what just transpired made you feel like you're not being heard or your voice doesn't matter, because I know. And without saying that to them, because I know that's what you really struggle with. I know that is one of their shame messages. So it's. It's maybe putting into words what they're not ready to in a way that just says, how can I help? What can I do? Or if I'm the one that maybe created it, say, I'm sorry if I created a sense that your opinion didn't matter just then, I know that's not what I want you to feel or those sorts of things. So just asking again, what do I want when I'm feeling that? And then how could I be that for someone else?

This just played out. And I don't think she'd be embarrassed if I share this. And if you are, when you listen to this, just.

Well, just call her.

Betty. Yeah, just text me, babe. But my wife just started a non profit.

We better not call his wife Betty.

Yeah, we better not be.

That's true.

He got specific about him. Nope, nope. Amy, I love you. So she started a nonprofit that is creating these like larger than life portrait sessions for critically ill kids. And it's this beautiful heart that she has. The Lord's done amazing stuff already. She just did her second shoot not that long ago. And it was, I think it was the day after the shoot. They brought in like mini horses and they brought in all this rodeo and they did it this. It was amazing what they put together. And the family is just like over the moon. The mom and dad are just so pumped. The girl had a great time. She didn't love the mini horses as much, but she had a great time. But Amy was beating herself up and I could tell and I did just that. I was just like, what is it about? Like this? Like what? Like, tell me, you know, what's going on. She's like, oh, I just don't really like the pictures. They didn't end up the way I wanted them to. The coloring was bad. And you know, she gets into the technical stuff. I don't, I'm not that smart with that stuff. But. And I, and then I asked a question, sort of a leading question. It was like, well, how did the family, did they like them? You know, and it was one of those questions that I was kind of putting the bumper lanes kind of in a certain direction. And that question helped her like identify and hear herself say they loved it. Which, you know, and then we ended up talking about that's why she's doing this ministry is for that experience with the family, not so that she'll like the pictures. And she does that with me too. Like this is a two way street. But I think that that's just a practical application of asking those questions to try to navigate that. I wish I did that as well and as often as I like, but I don't.

Well, and I think, you know, for me, just if your gift is encouragement, I always like to see the good that I see in other people and call it out. Because sometimes when your self talk, Nick is neg. I know that because I have that self talk that I have to deal with. I could be pretty black and white. So just someone saying, hey, I see what you're doing and what you bring to the table. Our family, our marriage, this work, organization, whatever it may be, you make our group a better group because you show up here. I think just that voice of Encouragement sometimes is just great to hear of. Like, okay, that's all I need. You know, it's just that little voice of encouragement. So that's just a small way for me of trying to combat those voices of shame in people.

Yeah. Yep. Reminding people in any way we can they don't have to be perfect to be loved, to get our love, that we're people in process too. I think, as you mentioned, that kind of, that modeling of, hey, I'm. I deal with stuff, I know what that feels like, and I'm here when you need an ear that can be so valuable. So as. As we kind of wrap up this key principle of recovery, what. What are some thoughts we'd want to leave people with, Rodney, about? Why is addressing our shame so important to the recovery journey?

I think it's just people of faith. We would just say it's what the scriptures call the healing of our souls. It's. You know, I recently did a talk on healing Jehovah Rapha, the Lord who heals and seeing healing not just physically, but in mentally, emotionally, relationally, such larger aspects of life. Because I think at the end of the day, you know, death is something we're all going to face, but it's so beautiful when we can face some of those internal things before we die. And I think it's that when we do that and we start to heal on the inside, to me, I find that's the greatest gift we give to those in our world is healing on the inside and really transforming into other centered self, giving love and seeing our worth and value so we can proclaim the worth and value of others. You are the beloved of God. You're worthy of love. And I'm excited to see what Christ has for you and why you're in this world and how you're going to make his kingdom established here and now. And to me, that's the older I get, the more I just say, yeah, that's. That's truly helping our kids. Nick, that's way more than a college education. That's way more than resources or, you know, certain things is just that sense of, like, that internal healing. And so that's why I say to my guys, I've been in recovery for 26 years. Why would I stop now? There's still more to do. And I love when I see, you know, the tribal elders still growing and still being humble enough to learn and grow and still learning pieces of the puzzle. And we have a number of those that are connected to our ministry on a lot of Facets who serve and give and whether it's board members or in development, and they just. It's fun to watch them still growing and learning and having those kind of relationships.

You know, I think shame is important to address because in order for us to really pursue our own healing, we have to believe at some level we're worth that effort, that we are lovable enough to be honest with other people, that the Lord cares for us so deeply that he's created a path toward freedom away from this. And I really do think that that's why addressing our shame, like, to me, this was the one thing that once this. Once I learned how to unlock this, it's like, it was almost like this brand. Like, you know, you used to play video games, you go to the next level. It was like a new level opened up. I'd never played before. It was almost like I'm playing a brand new game I've never seen before. And it's unbelievable. There's so many opportunities and possibilities. And once shame, once I got a taste of that, it was like, I need more of this. I need more of being honest in community and people accepting me. I need to create this culture everywhere I go, you know, like. And so I think that that's why it's just so important. I know in my own story, it was the one thing that once that switch got flipped, it was like, okay, now I know where we're going. I can see where we're headed.

Yeah, that's awesome. I think I'll probably bring this up in every one of these episodes on these five key principles. But it's really, again, asking the question, what is the point of our recovery? It's not just to be free of a behavior, but I would define it. It's really coming to a place where we're able to see ourselves as God sees us, and we're able to live as he invited us and made us to live in the this world. And ultimately, I don't think that's a completed process until eternity and perfection. But along the way, that's what recovery is for. So we can live fully into that. And we're not going to arrive there if we're still dealing with shame messages that cause us to believe I'm bad, there's something wrong with me, I'm no good, I'm worthless. And so it's allowing God to deal with that shame in a way that creates the freedom you're describing, Trevor. I mean, I've mentioned Adam and eve in Genesis 3, you know, the Beautiful thing that sometimes gets missed in our preaching because we, you know, just focus on the front half. And then it's like, oh, there's these unfortunate curses. And we maybe don't get to the end of the chapter, but it's at the end of the chapter that God takes the skin of an animal. And as I think about it, that's the first death in our universe was God putting one of his creation to death so that he could cover Adam and Eve, that God could clothe them. And I really think that is a picture in the Old Testament of the covering of Christ. Beautiful. That is ours. You know, the New Testament says that God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us, Incarnation, so that we might become the righteousness of God. And that's a beautiful biblical verse that says God, through Jesus, opened a pathway for us to see ourselves as he made and designed us to be. And that's freedom. That's, you know, that's life and relationship for eternity. And if that's the goal of our recovery, then it's like, well, the only way to get there is to let God and through often other people, heal my shame so that I can live the ways he's called and made me to live.

That's flat good preaching right there.

That is an excellent way to end.

One friend said it this way, God has such a high view of humanity that God became one of us. And that incarnation, that's exactly what Nick said. The incarnation, to me is the good news that. That it's not that you can receive Christ into your life. The good news is that Christ has received you into His. He got you. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. And so we've been fully embraced by God in Jesus. And, wow, what a great way to heal our shame. And Jesus did that and everyone he touched and everyone he met. We've shared all those stories here before. But anyway, how fun to be with you guys. And I just want to say thank you for, first of all, not letting me read the ending of this podcast. Trevor's got that I can't have all the gifts. We know that about Rod Wright, but I just want to say thank you, guys, as a board member, as an employee, as somebody that really loves this organization. This continues to be a place where my shame is being healed. And I'm just so thankful to be in relationship with you guys and Justin and everyone up and down the halls here and just the people that work here. And I just think it's a beautiful environment. That God's continuing to help us create and be a part of. So thank you. Thank you guys very much. It means a lot.

Yeah. And thanks for being with us today. Appreciate it, man. If you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our group's resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.