341 - Healing Our Trauma (Principles of Recovery)

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello.

Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 341 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

We're not gonna take it. No, we ain't gonna take it. We're not gonna take it anymore.

I don't know if the camera is, like, catching your full face and I'm sad if it didn't because. Yeah, it wasn't just you singing. It was the look on your face, the intensity.

Yeah, you can't sing that without, like, some. Some angst behind it.

I don't know if I know. That's like an old 80s song, is it not?

Yeah, yeah. Very good.

I don't know who sung it.

What year do you think? 86, 84. 1984. That was the classic American rock band, Twisted Sister.

That's right.

Who I'm sure looked even more aggressive than I did when they originally sang it.

I'm sure. And they were probably on aggressive drugs too, at the time. That's fine. We don't need to judge them from here. I was just thinking too, We've done this 341 times, and spoiler alert for anybody. We have a couple in the can that we're waiting for things to happen to then release. So maybe like 3:45. Are you getting tired at all of doing these? I just want to check in. We've done this many, many times.

Like, are you asking about the podcast?

Yeah.

The podcast or the introductions or.

No, the intros are great. I think they're great. I'm fine. I'm here for those.

Yeah, I haven't really. That's. That seems like a question I'd have to think about.

Okay.

I mean, we. What we value is having these conversations. And I think today's topic especially, it's one of the. Man, we're. We're all dealing with stuff. And I think that's what I love about doing the podcast, is we're having conversations that when people tune in, maybe initially they feel like, oh, I don't know if this applies to me, then it's like, oh, yeah, that applies to me. And we have a lot in common, a lot we can work on. And that recovery really is something that. That we can do. And so I hope it continues to provide encouragement for totally 341more episodes to come.

And I don't want anyone thinking I'm second guessing being here. That has Nothing to do with that. I just want to, you know, quick chat.

Yeah, I didn't know. What's, like, motivating you, Trevor? What's that question about?

I haven't had coffee today. That's motivating me. Okay, so we are in week three of our Principles of Recovery series, and we had Heather Colbert, content manager, on to talk about healing our trauma.

Yeah, you know, trauma is something that happens to all of us. And for many people, anger is kind of a trauma response of like, I'm not going to take that anymore. And. And we actually can make vows to ourselves like, I'm never going to let someone else hurt me. I'm never going to be in a position where I feel weak. I'm never going to, you know, it's kind of this, oh, I'm going to overcome it, and I'm going to be a powerful person. And honestly, that's driven a lot of successful careers of people who are masking and avoiding their trauma by just saying, I'm not going to take it anymore. I'm going to rise above it. And while there may be something to be said for rising above your trauma, what I think we look at today is how much more powerful it is if we can recognize it and heal it and see that we can really grow in these areas. And incidentally, that song I thought of it was a big part of my high school football football experience. That was always one of the pre game, you know, hype songs. And high school football was probably part of my trauma story of navigating a lot of different things with team sports and fears of failure and performance and getting yelled at by coaches. And I do think, especially in those days, my trauma response was anger and trying to be bigger than it and stronger than it. And it may have served me well, like on the football field, but. But beyond that, it did not serve me well as an adult or a husband or a father. I actually had to get into those wounds and traumas that were driving me, and rather than just being angry about them, unpack them in ways that led to growth. So whatever it is for our listeners, it might not have been high school football for you. The song you would sing would maybe be more about avoidance or driving the car down the road, some country songs. But I think we all have some of those trauma messages where we might see, I haven't always handled this the best, and maybe I could learn a better way to deal with my trauma.

I bet you that we could thank trauma for both Twisted Sister and the song we're not gonna take. And I bet you if they and.

Probably like 90% of the country western songs are out there.

All right, well, let's get into our conversation. Here's our time with Heather Kolb on healing our trauma. Heather Cole, welcome back. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me back.

So we're still toward the beginning of 2024, and I'm sure there are some people who are just like, oh, still already, because some years start that way. But we are starting by going back to the basics of recovery. We're looking at over really a five week span, principles of recovery. And so we're in week three now, and we're going to look today at really what I think is one of the biggest enemies of a recovery journey, which is trauma. And one of the things that makes us unique as a ministry is our understanding and emphasis on trauma and its impact with how it relates to or informs our sexuality. So let's just start here. What is trauma and how would we define it?

So I've heard this definition several times where somebody will say that we'll have a traumatic experience, but the feelings that we take away from it, what we carry from that traumatic experience, that that in itself is trauma. And I really like that definition because I think that it helps to explain that why trauma seems to be so unique to each person and why there isn't necessarily one way to define trauma in and of itself. But I think if we look practically at what that means is that it really is when somebody, something happens to somebody, they're left with that feeling. But that feeling in and of itself overwhelms their capacity to function on a regular basis, even function the way that they did before experiencing that traumatic event. Does that make sense?

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I've always liked the quote, and I know we've used it on the podcast, but I think in this episode, it needs to be repeated by Dr. Gabor Mate, that says trauma is not what happened to us. Trauma is what happened inside of us. And so there's really a whole range of things that can create trauma. And I think what you just said, Heather, is why so often in a pure desire group or in our process with people, we are all going back to early years. And I know some people feel like, oh, you know, what's my childhood got to do with it? Or I want to focus on the current problem. But it's exactly because we were children with developing brains that things happen to us. And our mental capacity, our emotional capacity, our relational capacity hadn't developed to the point to know what to do with it. And so we may have fairly routine things from the outside. If someone were to look at it and say, well, that seems fairly minor or routine, that may be a part of our trauma story because it happened at a time in our life when we were a child that our brain didn't know what to do with it or how to handle what happened. And so it became kind of a trauma inducing moment that inside of us we began to hold onto things or make decisions about things or as I'm sure we'll talk about in the episode, our brain internally began to make decisions about how to stay safe, what to do to feel protected and how to avoid that situation again. And that's where trauma has a lingering impact because that part of the brain doesn't tell time. It doesn't have a clock or a calendar. It doesn't go, oh, it's been five years now, we're safe. It says, no, this, this may be needed the rest of my life and I'm going to store it in a place where I never forget. And when we start to think about those things, it becomes evident that, oh, it's not just what happened to me, it's what happened inside of me. It's how I processed what was happening around me.

And what's interesting, too off what you were saying, that our brain keeps track of it, that is a design thing from the Lord, that it's a way that we are able to stay alive. Like if we touch a hot stove and it hurts, our brain is like, okay, don't do that again. That hurts. That sucks. Let's, you know, step away. And trauma is the same way. And I know in this conversation we're going to unpack how that plays out. But yeah, it isn't a bad design that your brain holds on to trauma like that, but it can be bad and have bad impact.

Yeah. Which is why we're talking about it today that we've seen trauma to be just a major part of the recovery journey. And so, Heather, let's talk about that a little bit. Why is trauma and in particular healing our trauma? Because we want to focus on that. We're not just here to rehash it and relive it. We're really trying to focus on healing our trauma. Why is that so tied to recovery and the healing journey?

Well, I think we've already touched on this a little bit in, in just recognizing that when those things happen to us, especially in our early years, there are things that are stored in our brain for various reasons. But I think that as we continue to live out our lives and especially into adult life, we can see, if we are honest with ourselves, we can see where those pressure points, where those traumas, where we become triggered in a way that is an indication that something is not right. That this thing, whatever this thing is, that it keeps showing up in all these different areas, and even to the point where I know that I have gotten to a point where I recognize it, I know there's something there, but I'm not ready to deal with it yet. And so I will, on purpose, shove it down. But I also know that then that's going to play a role in my ability to move forward in my healing, because it keeps popping up for a reason, because it's probably time for me to deal with that, and I'm just not ready to deal with it. So it can become really a huge stumbling block if you're not willing to address it.

Yeah, I was just having a conversation with a couple guys who are leading a group. One of them was just in my most recent seven Pillars group. And there was a guy in our group who, whenever someone would share something really traumatic or really painful, a deep wounding, that this group member would react like laughing or kind of like a, you know, like one of those kind of things. And it got to the point where I was sharing and I don't know, this probably isn't good. This why this section isn't in the group leader training course. But I like, reacted in the moment. Like, you laugh every time I bring this story up. What is going on? You know? And I eventually was like, I think this is a response to trauma. And we were able to unpack it. But what I found and what. Well, really what he found through kind of that conversation was that humor was something he found to then mask that pain or that difficulty. And there was stuff that had happened early in his life with his dad that was really, really difficult for him. And his escape was to go to humor. And so when it comes to recovery, it's the same thing. We find something to mask that pain and that difficulty. And so if we don't know what that mask is covering up, what pain or difficulty is really underneath, then we can't ever heal from that thing. Now, I don't know if he's healed from laughing at people sharing their deepest, darkest truths or whatever, but it was just a. Because I think sometimes understanding it not just focused or emphasized in sexual addiction, but looking at it even outside of that can help us Understand even more our addiction and how that plays out because of trauma.

Yeah, Interesting connection we found out earlier. Well, I guess it was last year that our oldest daughter's trauma response is laughter. Because we had a situation where we were on a hike with the three of us, my wife and I, and her. And my wife fell in a way that was kind of dramatic and a little frightening. And our daughter was laughing. And I'm like, why are you laughing? She's like, I don't know. And we did get to process it. Like, we're all okay now. And my wife was okay, thankfully. But it was scary for a minute. And so I've got this huge concern and someone's laughing. You're like, what is going on? But that's a good point. That when our brain doesn't know what to do, it may respond in ways we're not really even sure why. And rather than beating ourselves up about it, it's learning to pay attention to, oh, I'm, I'm handling this in a way that I'm maybe not comfortable with, but that's just what my brain has kind of learned to do. And the thought I was just considering as we talk about why it's so important to the healing journey. And it's because we have seen that healthy relationships, safe relationships, are a huge part of the recovery process and of living in a way of health. And the issue with trauma is that trauma creates messages in our thinking that impact relationships negatively because we're trying to stay safe, so we don't trust people, we're trying to protect ourselves so we don't risk. And relationship involves risk. And so as long as trauma is driving our thinking around relationships, we're not going to enter into the kind of relationships that really heal us and create a healthy way of life as mature, well functioning human beings that are following Christ and trying to live out of who he says we are. And so we've got to identify the trauma that created the messages so that we can have the tools to learn healthy patterns of relationship as God designed us for. To be in that safe, loving intimacy both with him and with other people. And so I think that's what I found in group. People are kind of so those light bulb moments, those aha moments, like, wow, I've never realized how that moment created maybe a vow in my soul where I said, I'm not going to trust men anymore. I'm not going to trust authority figures. I'm not going to trust the church. I'm not going to. I am not Going to risk vulnerability. And that's been impacting them ever since that moment. So when we start to see that and begin to heal it, it just opens a whole new way of doing relationships.

Yeah. And I think one of the things I saw play out in this group member was that he didn't really see a divorce being traumatic. And I think a lot, especially people in the church, and I won't say a lot, but there are a number of people in the church who grow up thinking that trauma is just someone close to you dying or sexual abuse or rape or something like, awful. Like the top, top things that we, you know, are afraid of happening. The trauma is so much more than that. And I think we go back to that. Your quote earlier, Nick, with Gabor, Mate, like, saying that it's happened. What's. What happens inside of you that makes it traumatic? So what are some examples of trauma that many of us have experienced that maybe we might not think, oh, that's trauma.

Mm. So. And I love this question because I think that each of us could make a huge long list of, not only from our own personal experiences. Right. But if we look at it through that lens, that it's what we take with us that we carry away from the event, then I think. Cause I actually did make a list for this. And so maybe it's when a parent forgets to pick you up from something, Being bullied, trying out for a team, and then you don't make it. That can be a devastating blow to people. Teased relentlessly by a sibling, Being pressured to do sexual things with friends, parents getting divorced, losing a pet, being yelled at, just being yelled out in general, but especially being yelled at by an authority figure. Getting picked last for team sports, man, I didn't realize until recently that. That. That I have a little bit of something with that. And in my unraveled group, we were going through some of those things, but I remembered that, you know, just being a girl and being small and, you know, but sometimes those elementary school recess traumas, you know, they're big. They are. They're real. Having an absent parent, and I think that this one is unique. I've known people with this. That their parent died when they were little, and they're like, well, I. That's not really a trauma. I barely even remember it. I barely even. You know. But you recognize that they have huge abandonment issues, even though part of their brain can say, this wasn't trauma. I mean, he didn't choose to die, but yet this is what happened. But the way that it impacted their life is huge. You know what I mean? And so I think that that's one of the reasons why, too, that we have a tendency to maybe even minimize our trauma sometimes because it isn't the death of a loved one and it isn't rape, and it isn't this big t trauma experience. But it's a million of these little things that we can retrieve in a moment's notice, you know what I mean? That they're in our brain. They're stuck there for a reason. And so I find that to be one of the telling things about whether something is actually traumatic.

Yeah. And we want to remember that trauma is both things that happen to us, but also things that didn't happen to us. And that's what I love about your list, Heather, is that included both that there are traumas of infringement, of I was called a name, I was hurt, I was bullied. But there was what we call, like, a trauma of abandonment that I came home and my parents weren't there, or I was left for hours and hours with no support or help. I was, you know, not given care in moments when I appropriately needed care. And so my brain had to figure out, you're on your own. I remember once in the counseling process, when my wife and I were walking through it, that I asked the counselor, I said, well, what, you know, what can qualify as trauma? And their response, I've always remembered they said, anything that happened to us that is outside of what God intended in the Garden of Eden, that in a sense, there was a perfect order to creation and care and relationships and God's presence, you know, Adam and Eve, God's present with them, walking with them in the garden. And then when sin and fallenness and brokenness enters into the world, there is a divide in that relationship, not only with God, but with one another. And now all sorts of things happen to us or don't happen to us that in a perfect world designed by God, we could expect would happen. Well, anything outside of that has the capacity to create trauma. And that doesn't mean it all will, but that it all has that capacity to be something our brain interprets as dangerous, unsafe, something to be avoided. And I think, too, in this whole area, it can be helpful to remember that we only got to live our experience. And it's natural for us to think our experience was normal. Right. So we didn't get to grow up in 10 different houses and compare them. And you may have had examples where you went and visited someone's home and realized, wow, they do things very differently. Maybe in a way that's healthy or unhealthy. But all that to say, when we grow up as kids, what we experience, we've just defined as normal. And it might be in a group scenario. And we've seen this happen a lot where someone will say something like, oh, I just thought that was normal. I just thought that's how everybody's family functioned. I just thought that's what parents were like or what dads did or what mom said, or. It never occurred to me that maybe that was really hurtful in my experience. And so also, you know, just the disclaimer. That doesn't mean we're trying to blame mom and dad. We're not trying to villainize anyone in our life. We're just trying to understand and interpret what happened to us and it. And, you know, the other person's blame or not. That's another topic for another podcast. The focus is what did this do to me? And then having the tools to start working through and processing that trauma.

Yeah, if you can remember, like, details about what happened, there's a problem. There's a really good chance that it was traumatic. I can remember and I've told this story many times, but, like, fourth grade, middle of a math test. Math test at Phonics factory. Mrs. Foster, who's my teacher, wouldn't let me go to the bathroom. I'm sitting next to Brittany Ekstrom and Rachel Northcraft. If you're listening. You didn't know you were part of my trauma. But, like, I. And I peed my pants and that moment was so bad, you know, and we'll get into, like, the messages. You can learn from that. But I can remember who was sitting around me, the color of the chairs, who my teacher was, what grade I was in, how my dad, you know, responded when it all happened. And I get. Honestly, it's funny, too. I've told this story recently during a session at church that I remember when I was 5 years old in kindergarten, I had a crush on a girl named Abigail, and she walked out the door holding hands with Kenny. And that was traumatic to me at 5 years old because I can remember what I smelled. I remember what I saw. Come on, jerk. But it's so. I think that that might be helpful when you're trying to explore if you haven't. What is traumatic, what isn't in my past is it's. Well, what are those painful moments that you seem to remember? A lot of those details that weren't really maybe important to what Happened.

Yeah. So I think that's a good question for us to get into, because maybe for some who are listening, this is a newer concept, or maybe it's something they've heard about, but kind of thought, well, Christians don't struggle with that, or that's, you know, we come to Jesus, he heals that. Right. And it's like, oh, maybe there's more. I need to unpack. So if someone was trying to recognize, you know, Trevor, I think gave a great idea there of. We can remember an incredible level of detail about something from decades ago. But, Heather, what are other ways we might recognize signs of trauma in our life? And why does it always seem to revolve around younger years, childhood kind of experiences?

Yeah. So these, in my mind, are kind of two a little bit separate questions, I think. Trevor, your example was really good. Being able to remember specific details about a situation, even though the situation itself felt maybe trivial in the big scheme of things, but the way that it impacted you and what it left you would. Is huge. Another one would be recognizing when somebody's response to a situation doesn't match the situation. So we've talked about that. Either it's way extreme or it's even below what would be considered a normal.

It's a disproportionate response, for sure.

Yeah. Okay. That, to me, is always a big thing. Also, when you notice that somebody's core characteristics, like things that you've known about this person that have always been very steady are changing, and even if it's a change that isn't a rapid thing, it definitely is something to pay attention to. And this. I even noticed this this morning with a coworker in the office, that this person is usually very energetic, has a lot to say, very optimistic. And so when I walked by and said, you know, how are you doing? The response was, I'm hanging in there. Now, I don't think I've ever heard that response from this person in the amount of years that I've known this person. But for me, that's an indication that, okay, something is going on with this person for sure. But if that became a pervasive pattern of behavior, then it needs to be looked at, because the core characteristics of this individual were not evident in that moment. And so. And it could be even that this afternoon we have a conversation and everything is back to normal. Okay, good. No red flag anymore. But when you start to notice somebody that you have a relationship with that their behaviors are extremely different than what you've observed before, then that's a huge red flag. And a lot of times we'll see that even in extremes. So somebody who used to be super social, really outgoing, loved going to do things with their friends, is now saying no to everything and isolating. And we can even notice this in our children. You know, as parents, we want to know our kids really well. And if we pay attention, we'll know when something happened at school, or we'll know when there's something that's ongoing that they're reluctant to tell us about, but their behaviors are changing in a significant way. So I think that that is an important piece to all of this. And the other part of this is the impact that it has on our brain, you know, for sure. And Nick, you kind of touched on this earlier about how when it has to do with our younger years, that there are parts of our brains that are fully developed that are capturing that information so that we can survive. Because a lot of times when we experience trauma, there's a fear element to it which then stays part of our limbic response to it. But I think even recognizing that for an adult who has had some of these experiences, or even experiences trauma as an adult, there are literally parts of their brain that shut down, you know, that they're not even functioning because of this trauma response. And so there is a lot that goes into being able to recognize the behaviors, but also understanding that it's not just in what we can see, but it's understanding what's happening in their brain that's going to contribute to future behaviors.

Yeah, I think that it's easy to look at it and see the like, over response. Like, okay, it's easy to identify that. But I think we have to be just as aware of an under response where something that's really difficult or scary or traumatic in and of itself, there's this response that almost seems to not even acknowledge what happened that is also a trauma response. And so I feel like that's something that I've had to learn a little bit too, that if something's difficult and I end up being like, hyper dismissive of it, then there's something else going on in me that I gotta. I gotta unpack and we'll get into how we do that. But I just feel like that's something that can be missed, is like, oh, they're fine. It didn't actually hurt that much. It's like, well, that's not necessarily what's happening. Maybe that is a trauma response, that there isn't this big reaction.

What we're Talking about here has a lot to do with the limbic response of the brain. It's the fight, flight, or freeze response. And that is such a huge indicator of when I find that, as we might call it, I'm going limbic. I'm going into fight mode. I'm getting angry. There's aggression, there's kind of amped up. I'm really defensive. I'm going into flight mode. I just want to run away, disappear, hide, leave the room, drive away. Or that freeze mode of feeling paralyzed, can't think, can't function. That's an indicator. There's a pattern here or a pathway that leads back to a wound and a trauma. And I think that we miss it because sometimes people might feel like, well, that's just the way I am. I just get angry, or I just worry a lot. I just avoid conflict. It's like, well, there is a reason why for you, that particular area creates that response. Because you've probably noticed not everyone responds to that topic the same way you do. So there's something in your life that made that topic. And there are certainly consistencies of things like conflict, money problems, painful situations, people yelling. Like, there are maybe commonalities that a lot of people will have a similar response. But that's because we've seen that that can be traumatic. And I think what we want to help people do is if you see the present reaction is just start tracing it back and asking the question of where might this have developed in my life? When do I recall first feeling this way? And what we'll probably get back to is some memories where we are tempted to dismiss them is like, well, that was just kid stuff. Or that was just childhood. That was just my family. That was just the way my mom was. It's like, well, yeah, exactly. When you were six years old and your brain didn't understand all that, that's what your brain began to latch onto and learn. And so when we see the patterns, I think that becomes really instrumental. And the other thing I would just say is like, what wakes you up at night? Or what keeps you up at night when everything starts to quiet down? And you use kind of the phrase earlier, Heather, like, what starts to bubble to the surface? And now your brain's going, oh, no. And what about. Well, that is probably a current concern that you could link back to past trauma if you spent some time thinking, why is it always this topic? Why is it this fear about my children making bad decisions or about going bankrupt or about, you know, getting exposed as a failure at work, or what is it for you that's creating that unresolved fear? And you could probably find that at the root of it is trauma, and likely from early years or from childhood.

Right. So once we've identified it, and I think, you know, our answers have given people enough to maybe start that, what does it actually look like? What are those initial steps to healing trauma?

My first one is always counseling. And I know that that is challenging for some people, but I think that when we have. When we start to become aware that we have traumatic experiences or we have trauma that we're living with, it can be difficult to even want to go to a friend and say, you know, I started to recognize this about myself, and so will you help me with this? Because a friend is going to maybe be helpful, but at the same time, they're not going to have as much experience or expertise or even a way to guide you to really what needs to happen next. And so I always think that counseling is a good first step, and especially if it's something that you realize that the trauma that you've experienced or that you're living with is probably big trauma, even if it might be little things over time, that a lot of times that can be a really good first step. And that could even be counseling with, you know, a mental health professional, but also in a counselor at your church or something, but just somebody who could start to explore that with you yourself. And the reason why I mentioned counseling or even talking with somebody else is that if I try to process something in my own head, I'm only going to come up with the same answers that I always come up with. Right. I need somebody else to speak into my situation in a fresh way, give me a fresh perspective and allow me to think about my situation differently than I would come up with by myself. Does that make sense? I also think that if we try to process these things by ourselves, we're more likely to be more dismissive and just play it down rather than really want to get to the core of what's creating this trauma.

Yeah.

And again, that's why we talk over and over about the value of groups. And in the group process, with pure desire, you're going to have ample opportunities to start processing trauma, naming it, understanding it, and with others, maybe seeing it from a different lens. Yeah. I think a pattern that we've seen in terms of healing it, that is really. And it kind of sounds like steps, but it really can be a fluid process, and it can be something we go through multiple times in Healing. But, you know, that first step of just naming what happened, like recognizing something in your life that was traumatic, and maybe it's going back and finally naming that my dad's workaholism created a lot of abandonment, fear for me. And so you've named and recognized there was something that created trauma. And then I think it's to acknowledge that that was painful. And it's okay that you're not blaming yourself now or, you know, shaming yourself for feeling bad. Like, it's okay that I felt hurt by that, that I felt some loss. There was a wound there. And it's. It's kind of that grieving process of acknowledging this was hurtful. So we've named it, we've acknowledged it. And then that processing of, you know, what did this make me feel? That's where I think, particularly the counselor, a group member, a trusted friend that we can walk through. This is what I remember feeling.

This is.

And in that process, too, it's beginning to invite, where was God in those moments? You know, where was. Where was Christ? As you were feeling that, like, oh, he was with me. And, you know, people have even had ways of kind of walking through that experience and sensing that Jesus was sitting there next to me or he was holding my hand. And another tool I've seen in that area is, and this is kind of a Jenna Reimersma tool of, like, the Altogether U book of speaking to your inner child, speaking to that part of you that maybe is still kind of stuck at that age and saying, I'm sorry you felt that loss. And thank you for holding this pain from me for so long. Thank you for partnering in that area. And now we're going to work together to heal and learn that we're safe, you know, and we can trust people again and we can take steps. And all that, I think, is engaged in processing what happened, what we felt, and, and where were the. The helpful things? Where was Christ in that moment? What were we, you know, maybe seeing that we were. We survived, you know, and that could be a way of encouraging, like, yeah, I made it through some really hard stuff, like, I can do hard things. You know, that's always an important lesson in the seven pillars of freedom. When we have guys talk about their get up off the floor moments, like, where in your past did you make hard decisions and you survived, you took the next step and you can do it again. And then, you know, the ultimate step or fourth step is really, then how do we start using those points of pain to help others? Because who's more gifted to speak to someone who's stuck in a place of fear or anger or doubt than someone who's walked through it themselves. And beginning to use the parts of your story that maybe you've tried to hide and ignore, to use those as a part of how you're encouraging and helping others, that really is kind of the full, the full circle moment of using your trauma now to be a part of your strength and your story.

Yeah, I also think it's important to identify where you see that trauma being poked currently in your life. I mean, I'm a dad of two young boys and so it feels like they have trauma pokers they're carrying around every day. But I think identifying that too is helpful in addressing it because it helps me to prepare for those moments. What if I know that they're coming and then practice doing it differently? Not having that overreaction of anger, that underreaction of pulling away and being dismissive. So I think that finding opportunities to have replacement experiences is ultimately how our brain will heal and how that trauma will heal. And so if you can identify where are these traumas being hit in my life and what are plans of a, of attack or action in those moments, that I can do it differently. I think that that's what will start the healing.

So for some people, Heather, they maybe they go to the counseling, they do the group, they start to identify trauma, you know, they dig in, they're starting to do some of this work. And I think there's a part of all of us that would want that to be a one and done process or at a minimum, confined to a short season of life. Like, I'm going to get in, I'm going to deal with it and I'm like, move on. But the reality is it tends to be an ongoing process, doesn't it? So talk a little bit about what does that process look like of ongoing recovering from trauma and why does it tend to be something that we just have to keep walking out and can't just fix all at once?

Yeah, I would love it. I mean, I would love it if it was a one and done thing. But I can tell you from experience that I have, I mean, I was in counseling 20 years ago and did a lot of recovery work and have done work since then. But I know that there are still times when something comes up, something that is an old, old wound that I think that I've processed. But when it comes up in a significant way, in a way that where I even catch myself and think Wow. I didn't even know that was there anymore. Then it just reminds me that I need to still be doing work. The great thing about that, though, is that I have tools, you know, now I have tools so that when something triggers me and I'm, you know, responding to that trauma in a way that is not beneficial to me or the people around me, that then I can use my things. I have my safe people, I have the tools, I have the faster scale. I have these other things to really get a bird's eye view of what's going on, and so I can respond appropriately. Recently, I've had a couple new things that I know that and I've talked about it with. I've done all the things, and it still is there and it still is prominent. And so I know that I need to, at some point, get into counseling so I can unearth this and figure out where it's coming from, which I haven't done yet. So it's on the list and get on it. Right. But that's why I say that it is really. It is an ongoing process, and it's a good mindset to have to recognize that the trauma that I'm experiencing today, it may not impact me this same way forever. But if I recognize that my journey toward health is going to be until I go to be with the Lord, then be willing to address the things when they come up. Because we really only hurt ourselves when we're unwilling to do the hard work sometimes to figure out what's causing us to be trauma triggered.

You know, it's interesting, too. I think, obviously, we know that life, you know, develops and seasons change. And like, when I first started recovery, we didn't have kids. And now that I do, and it's like, maybe I've learned how to manage situations or the context of my life in a pretty healthy way. But then when something comes in and changes, that there are new scenarios and situations I'm experiencing. And so I think there's a little bit of like, well, I thought I dealt with this. What is going on? You know, what happened? I think it's actually far more normal than we make it seem like it's just maybe that same, you know, like, if my kid's carrying around a trauma poker or whatever, like, maybe it was getting poked from the front. But then there's this new context in life that I'm now getting hit from the side on that, and I'm like, whoa, hold on. What's going on? And so I think that it's important to not like lose sight or feel like you've graduated from that trauma, whatever it might be, but just know that it makes you very normal if context and season of life changes and these traumas can get hit in different ways.

Yeah, well, it's an area where I think considering the human brain is helpful because this, you know, that survival brain is really the most powerful part of how our brain functions so that when we need it, we can survive. And so it, it connects to all of our systems in all these ways. And then you look at the billions of neurons that are in our brain and have learned to fire in all these patterns. And as we're getting healthy, I think the imagery is that those pathways aren't being used in our brain, but in a sense they're still there. And so, as you mentioned, Trevor, when you go through something, you feel something in a new way, those patterns and those neurons are like, oh, we remember this and we know how to fire here and create this anxiety and this neurochemical so we can react in the right way. And it's like, okay, this is going to take time, because it's not just, well, this happened and I feel this and now I fix it. It's like there are this intricate web of how our brain is learning to respond and adapt. And so it's a healing process. And I think about it too, through the lens of the only human that has ever been perfectly unburdened of all their trauma is Jesus. That in his fully God, fully human state, he definitely experienced things that to you and I would have been traumatic, but was able in the maturity and in the wisdom of God that he had and was, he was able to live free of those burdens. And so I think about, for us, if we consider, and I think for most of the listeners of this podcast, you know, we consider that Christ likeness is always an ongoing journey, that that's a pathway that we're not going to complete until we step into a perfect eternity because we're just human and God is always doing a work in us. Well, if we can accept that that pattern, that process takes time and is ongoing, I think we can maybe look at trauma the same way that it's not just a problem to solve and fix and be done with. It's a part of the human experience. It's part of the tension we live with in a fallen world, that our brain has experienced hard things and holds onto it, but we can continue to heal. And it's not to say that we're going to be struggling with it the same way every year for the rest of our lives. There's growth, there's healing, there's ways we look back and go, man, I have come a long ways. But to be fully unburdened of all impact of trauma in our life, I just. I think we'd say, man, that's similar to the process of becoming like Christ. It's going to take me my lifetime and the more I grow in it, the healthier I'll be and the more I'll help people around me. But even then, I'm still going to have more to grow in. And in a way that might be exciting to us to say, I get to keep using these things, you know, that the enemy may be intended to harm me. I get to keep using them to create good and growth and more health because I have something to learn from. Right? I mean, growth happens because there's a tension, because there's something to be learned. And if, if we could fix our trauma all at once, I think maybe we'd stop growing because there'd be nothing to learn from anymore. So what if we shifted our mindset? Think, you know, this is kind of a good thing, that I can use my trauma to keep growing and then God can use that in my life to help others. So maybe a new perspective there.

Totally. And I think that we've talked about this already in the episode, but I think that one of the ways that that happens best, that growth is in relationship. And so, okay, role do others play in healing our trauma?

Probably a significant role. And especially if we are not only in group, that we're doing all of the things in group and taking advantage of those relationships with other people who are on the same journey as we are, but also with having those safe friends, you know, those safe people in our lives. That I know that I have two people in my life that I can send a text that it doesn't even have to have punctuation or anything, which.

Is hard for you.

I know it is hard for me, but that I can send an urgent kind of text and they will know. They will know that, okay, this is where she's at. This is what she needs. Even if she says she doesn't need this, this is what I'm gonna do.

No punctuations.

I know something is very wrong.

Abbreviations. Oh, no.

But I think that it's. That kind of thing is really important because. And especially I know for me that when I start to feel triggered by trauma, I immediately go inside my head and I isolate and so if I am willing to at least even just send that text in the first place, then they know how to respond. And a lot of times, too, that. And I always know the way that somebody took my text is if they text me back or if they call me. If they call me, then it's like, okay, we're in this. We're going there, and that's. We're going to just deal with this. So I think that people having people who help you is significant.

Dr. Kurt Thompson says that we're all born into this world looking for someone, looking for us, and we never stop. And there is something about the way God designed our brain and soul to work that we want to be seen. And ultimately that fully happens in him and in Christ. But it's part of that need of relationship that is woven into the fabric of our being that we want to truly be seen. And when we're carrying trauma and pain, I think it creates a little separation that people don't really know they've not seen. Maybe I don't even see it. But if we're able to open up our trauma to others and we feel really seen in a new way, and we feel safe and we feel, you know, the words Kurt Thompson uses, we feel soothed and secure in that relationship. It does something profound in us to heal that trauma, to heal that place of uncertainty and fear and, you know, the need to run. It's like, oh, I'm. I am safe here and with these people. And because I'm. I'm known and I'm seen, it does something to just change how I view myself. And really, that it's like, again, I'm just saying we're made for people to see us that way, and when they see us, that it does something in us. And so that's the point, I think, of opening up trauma with others is we're letting ourselves be seen in a new way. And it really does do something to change us and alter the way we see ourselves.

Just a little sharing for my life currently. It's interesting. There's you. Heather asked me a question early this week, an observation of how challenging work has been over the last couple of months. And it made me pause because you could see it and I couldn't. I think I. After reflecting, I definitely could feel some of that stuff, but I didn't see it the way that you saw it. And so you put words to it. And of course I, you know, maybe whispered a swear word under my breath and I was like, crap. Now I have to Address this. Okay. But, like, through the. Even through this week, just thinking it through, I've been able to evaluate, okay, what is this tied to? When did I start feeling this way? And I was able to tie it to over a year ago when my wife had a major surgery and things that were going on and this feeling of, like, pulling away and people aren't safe and I don't have control. And so I think the reason why I bring that up is because that without relationship, without you knowing me and knowing what I've gone through, you couldn't identify something that was going on in me that I otherwise would never have put words to. I probably would have, like, floundered my way through finding some sort of version of it. But you were able to, because you had the perspective, you're able to point it out, say, hey, this is. This is something that's going on. I'm not sure what it all is, but I see it and I think you should look into it. And yeah, I mean, I'm only a week in. I'll let you know. But it's still. That is the role of relationship and identifying pain and trauma.

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's having an opportunity to re. Experience relationships as God intended them. Yeah. And in a healthy way. Like you said earlier, replacement, replacing some of the lies or the message of the early trauma. I think we all wish that trauma only happened in the past or only happened in our childhood years, but the reality is that all of us at some point are going to go through something in our current adult life that is traumatic. And so, Heather, what are thoughts about how we can respond well and begin addressing and healing trauma, even maybe while we're in the midst of it as adults?

So I think the process, in a lot of ways is going to look the same. However, if we've been already in group, in recovery, doing the work, we're going to have some of those tools already in place that we can start implementing. We're going to probably have safe people in our. In our lives that we can talk to. I think the other thing that happens is that we have the opportunity to not only connect what we're going through right now with previous experiences that we've had, but we most likely have a fully developed brain, and so we have the opportunity to utilize that. Because I don't know, like, I know that for me, when something happens that's out of the blue that I'm feeling triggered, then my limbic response seems to be very automatic, but yet I can talk myself off the ledge kind of quickly or I can go to the people that know me that can help with that. And so I think that that is definitely an advantage to. To being an adult. When we experience hard things, because we probably have a fully functioning brain, we're more likely have to have the language to explain what's happening, whereas children often don't have even the language to understand what's. What they're experiencing. And so I think that those are huge advantages.

But.

But the process and a lot of the tools that we would use, I think are going to be very similar.

The three things that came to mind for me, and we've already kind of touched on at least some of them. But talking to safe people, when something comes up, I also think that's the first one. The second one would be leaving space for you to feel your emotions, because when you're in trauma, you don't really do that. You kind of go to feeling safe, pulling away, finding security. And emotions at times don't feel like they're safe. I know that's my experience. So feel your emotions, whether that's journaling or talking to someone about them, just voicing them. And the third one is self care. If you've been in recovery, you know how important that is that you're finding activities, hobbies, things that help you. There's this weird balance between. It helps you kind of disengage from the normal rhythms of life. And in some ways that can feel like isolation. It's not. It's more of the solitude piece. You're pulling away so that you can do something that is beneficial for you. And self care could be anything from reading a book, going on a walk, exercise time with friends. Maybe it's, you know, you like to crochet. Do it. Crochet your heart out. You know, like it's finding something that it's funny. I was just. I actually just met yesterday with Bob Vandermeer, who's one of our clinicians, and he literally whittles wood and crafts things, and it's so cool, and I'm so jealous that I don't know how to do that. He's probably going to text me after he listens to this and say, I'll teach you, but just finding stuff that cares for yourself. So talking to safe people, finding feeling your emotions, and creating rhythms of self care, I think are ways that we can address trauma if it happens right now. Yeah.

I think a key is that we learned that it's okay to be vulnerable, that it's There are people, like, you're saying, safe people where we can be vulnerable to say, I'm not doing well, I need help. I'm experiencing fear or anger or doubt and knowing there are people we can take that to who will not reject, shame, criticize and. And that may not be people we've always thought of. If, depending on our spouse or family members or even a pastoral figure, it's like, well, that's who I'm supposed to tell. If that hasn't always been a safe experience, who do I know? I could say I'm just really afraid in work or in this relationship that will receive that and help you process. There's just something about what that does for you. I think of the story that Rodney told on the podcast just a week or two ago about the difference of being at a funeral and how he. He knows that earlier in his life, he would have felt the need, you know, to be strong. I'm the pastor. People look up to me. I'm supposed to be, you know, only grieve appropriately versus said. This time I was just, like, I was a wreck. I was a mess. And I didn't worry about how people felt or thought about me because, like, that I needed to grieve and to be there and to let that be kind of a traumatic, sad thing, but how much healthier that was for him. And I'm like, yeah, I think that's all of us like that. To be in a situation, be able to say, I'm scared and I don't like this, and have someone go, I understand. I'm here with you. It's like, oh, I think that's what our brain is looking for in trauma, is that I'm not alone, I'm supported, I'm safe. And so we can't really get that if we don't express what we're feeling, if we don't express what we're going through. So it's choosing vulnerability. And if you're not sure who that safe person is, I think that's why, again, pure desire counselor. Pure desire group. That's what we've designed them to be, is those places where you can be vulnerable and have others go, thank you for sharing. We're glad you're here. We love your honesty and we're with you. And you can find that. I think.

And I think the thing too with that is that with the pure desire group resources, with counselors, you are using things that have a level of competency that can help you. It's not just a Friend who says, man, that's really hard. I'm really sorry. But also can maybe help you dig into what's going on here. Where does this trauma come from? Why do you react this way? How can this play out in a better way? And that's what's so important about having some recovery system or a counselor, therapist, someone. And obviously we offer those here, and so we do recommend those. But something that has some level of clinical work, some competency, some understanding of trauma will definitely help it go above and beyond.

Well, this is a subject we could spend a lot of time on, and we could do a whole series on trauma and recovery. But as we think through this as a significant principle of recovery, what final thoughts, Heather, would we want to give just about the significance of facing trauma as a part of our recovery process?

I would probably just encourage people to lean in, to not be afraid, to, you know, investigate what that would look like, to take some of those steps toward healing. And the other thing, we have just collectively mentioned a lot of different traumatic experiences. And so if somebody's listening to this and thinking, oh, my gosh, I have all of those, I need to find a cancer. Right. But just to keep. Be mindful that it's going to take time. Choose kind of one thing as your significant thing that you want to start working on. And I am very certain that in the process, it will unfold and reveal a lot of other things that will be really healing in that process. But it just is, do something and lean in. Don't be afraid.

The phrase that came to mind is that we can't heal the what if we don't know the why. And I feel like that's just an important thing with understanding how to. Specifically in recovery, why I'm going to sexually acting out why I. Pornography and masturbation and, you know, having affairs or whatever, whatever it may look like, if we don't understand why we started doing that in the first place, or the pains and wounds that motivated that, then we'll never be able to break free from those things. Because maybe we can, like, white knuckle our way into stopping the behavior, but if we haven't healed the wounds that are there when it gets poked in a different way, I mean, that's game over. We could be starting back from square one. So, again, understand the why so that you can heal the what.

Yeah, I think for me, it's the image of the iceberg that comes to mind and what you're describing, Trevor, that. That our behaviors or the outcomes of trauma in our life that are maybe leading us to do things we're not super happy about. That's just the above the water things that we can see. And, and that's still important. It still matters. Like, we do want to address negative behaviors. We want to address ways that we're maybe not functioning well in relationships, but those outward external behaviors are just a small piece of the much bigger picture of what's happening below the surface. And trauma really is that below the surface work. And what I would say about it as a final encouragement is the way that it can yield results in so many areas of your life. You know, yes, it does impact your recovery story and could help you heal from betrayal you're walking through or could help you heal from an addictive pattern that you're trying to overcome. But when you start facing your trauma, I think you're going to start looking around at your life and go saying, wow, this is making me a healthier person here. I'm functioning better as a parent. I'm, I'm a more at peace co worker. I'm less reactive. I'm not being driven by this. And, and you might even feel like, but I wasn't even working on that. Well, no, but you're doing just what Trevor said. You're, you're figuring out your why and it's, and how it's been impacting everything. And you probably have seen it connected to maybe one specific behavior or story that you're really working on, but it, it's connected to everything. And so there is again an opportunity here to experience some personal growth that maybe you haven't seen because of how significant trauma is and how we react to life. So there's a ton of great work that can be done there. You don't have to do it alone. And it really can be something that fuels your growth for a long time to come.

Yeah, we hope our conversation really does help you see that trauma is something that exists in your life and that you definitely have what it takes to find healing, that it is absolutely possible. So, Heather, thanks for your time with us. I know this is one of your favorite topics, so thanks for being here.

Thank you.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share with somebody and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.