342 - Honesty In Community (Principles of Recovery)

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy day to you, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 342, Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembo.

Liar. Lia. Get behind me, witch. I'm not a witch. I'm your wife. And after what you just said, I'm not even sure I want to be that anymore.

Princess Bride.

Yes, of course.

And that is. I don't know the actress. I do know that's Billy Crystal.

Yeah, I know. We all kind of know that one of Billy Crystal's most iconic, memorable roles, like, who is Miguel?

He said to lave, which means to bluff.

Yeah, yeah.

Not True love.

Yeah, that's.

Oh, man, that definitely need to watch that again. Serious question. When would you suggest letting your children watch that movie? What age?

Wow. We're looking for parenting advice now. You know, every. Every kid's different. It. It's. It's such an iconic, like, youth group movie because it was mainly clean, although there's one prevalent swear word that you could know was coming. And skip that. The violence is clearly not as realistic as some of our movies now, for sure. But. But it is. You know, there's tension. There's. There's things that could give, I think, a grade school kid nightmares if that's not the kind of thing they're into. But yeah. Yeah, I think my boys probably watched it in middle school of unusual sizes.

Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, let's move on from the parenting advice section. But we had Brent Brining on, who is one of our newest clinicians, and he's been. He's been with Pure Desire, like, doing group stuff for a long time now, and it's cool to have him on staff. We had him on. On our series of key principles of recovery, and we talked about being honest in Community.

Yeah. You know, if you've watched the Princess Bride, you know, in that scene that she is accusing her husband of lying, not because he's trying to swindle them or be dishonest, but because as she brings up that his confidence has really been shaken ever since the king's stinking son fired him, and that he's. I think he's fearful to risk or to try to help someone and find out he can't. And. And that's the accusation there. And I think in terms of what we talked about today, that's a lot of what happens. Things happen to us in life, and we get caught up in These patterns of self protection, self preservation, and really lying to ourselves first, that it's better for me, better for others, if they don't know the whole truth. And yet what we're missing in that is the kind of fullness and life and freedom that Christ has for us in living in honesty. And it really is in places of community with safe people that. That we learn to be truth tellers. We learn to see ourselves honestly and then speak the honest truth to others. And we talked today just about how that becomes such a critical part of our healing journey and that without it, this whole journey is really, really difficult to do. I mean, if not impossible, because it really is one of those fundamental starting points is that commitment to honesty.

Yeah, I'm trying to be serious. I have so many other quotes from that movie that I just want to start doing right now, like, good luck storming the castle. Do you think it'll work? That's right. Okay. But yeah, this is a great episode. And Brent gets to introduce himself a little bit too at the beginning, so you get to know him. But yeah, this is a good episode. And let's get into it. Here's our time with Brent Brining on being honest in community. Brent Brining, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast for the first time, man. We're excited to have you.

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Long time coming.

Seriously. I think I met Brent the first time you basically chauffeured us around Washington, D.C. that's right. When we were out there in April of. What was it, 19? I feel like it was 2018.

Yeah, I think we were all like, who's this Brent guy?

Who is this Brent guy? And I'll never forget, my Apple watch was tracking how much we were walking, like halfway through. My watch is basically like, are you okay? You're moving around a lot today. What's happening? But I just remember that being such a great time and it's cool to finally see because I know for you, this is a long time coming to even be on staff. Now, as a clinician at Pure Desire, you worked really hard, and we're honored to obviously have you on staff, but it's also just a cool story. So let's kind of. We'll get into your story just a little bit here so you can introduce yourself. But just a reminder for our listeners here, as we're starting 2024, we wanted to go back to the basics of recovery. And we're in week four of our five week series looking at the key principles of recovery. And today we're going to talk about really the importance of being honest in community. And this is going to focus primarily really on not just community that we have in the church or in our family, but in group, how important that piece is. But, Brent, as it is your first time on the show, just give us a rundown of who you are, your story, how you got hooked up with Pure Desire.

Yeah. Yeah. So the short version is that Pure Desire saved my life and my marriage. So going back a few years to 2012, my marriage was in a rut, really. No intimacy left in it. Very successful my career. I've been in the Navy for 22 years. Was a naval aviator. Just wrapped up a congressional fellowship up on Capitol Hill, which is what brought me to D.C. and we ended up obviously staying there for a while after. That's where we met you guys. In 2018. I was on the promotion list for captain and everything was plugging along professionally, but just inside I was just miserable and dying. And like I said that the marriage was in the tank. Didn't really feel connected to my son. And really the root cause of that was my addiction to pornography that had been going on for about 17 years. Didn't start as an addiction. Started with dabbling in it before marriage, and then once we got married, kind of went to a binge purge when I was traveling. But once the iPhone came out, probably got my first iPhone into 2009. So those couple years leading into 2012, it just really ramped up with the access and went to a. Almost everyday occurrence and really felt trapped in that, even to the point of despairing and telling God either need to heal me or take my life because I can't do this anymore.

Yeah.

Was not suicidal. I wasn't going to take my life by my own hand, but I was just. I was just at a point of desperation of wanting to get out of this but not knowing how to. And it was that point of desperation that I think really broke through my denial and. And God responded. And a couple weeks later, my pastor said this guy named Dr. Ted Roberts, you may know him, he was coming to speak to our denomination up in Christians Virginia. And pastor had no idea I was struggling like I was. I was leading the men's group in the church. I was leading worship on. On Sundays and just had this double life going that I think so many who were in ministry can identify with. Just the shame was. Was so strong. We'll get into some of the shame connections with honesty here, but yeah, with. With me. I think being at the Point of just ready for change. God stepped in and, and opened that door of opportunity. And, and that's, you know, my pastor said, hey, the guys would really benefit from this. Why don't you come with us to this conference? I came clean and said, this is, this is my story. This is what I need. And once Dr. Ted started to. To speak, everything started making sense of why I was so stuck. The noose of addiction that he talks about that just kind of traps us in addictive behaviors, the neurochemistry of the brain, all of that. And so I knew that I needed to do something about it. It's kind of funny, my connection to Dr. Ted and really goes back to that moment and, you know, Dr. Ted's story, being a Marine aviator and everything, he's an early riser, and me being a Navy guy, same thing. So I showed up at the cafeteria on campus there at 7am and no one is in the cafeteria. So I. I go through the. The food line, get my food, sit down at a table, and in comes Dr. Ted, pops down right next to me and says, tell me your story. And that that was where the relationship was, was born. So, yeah, so I went back to D.C. and said, told my pastor, well, I need help. And we didn't have any online activities going then. We didn't have any groups in the area. So I said, I think I need to lead this. Not necessarily recommended, but if that's all you got, that's what you have to work with. And so led my first group in early 2013. Told my story in front of the church and was scared to death of what the response was going to be. But seven guys said, if you're brave enough to do that, we're coming with you. That was my first group. A couple of the women in the church, instead of thinking I was sexual pariah, came up and said, we feel safe that you're willing to share about this topic. Thank you for sharing. And so that was the first group. And that was 11 years ago. And since then, I've led 12 groups. 84 guys have gone through my groups, retired in 2017, knew I wanted to do something more with my life, to continue to give back. And through the process of. Of kind of discovering that track, I got plugged into Liberty, got a master's in pastoral counseling with a focus on addiction and recovery. And then when I got a PSAP certification as a pastoral sex addiction professional, certification through the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals. And that kind of set me up to be able to come on board the peer desire clinical team. And so I put in my applications last year and been working with clients since April. So kind of a short, long story, but, yeah, it's been a long time coming to get to this point.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Well, and we're deeply grateful that you're a part of the team. And now, like so many of us, getting to use your story to help others find that same healing pathway. And as you know, as it came up in your story, and I think for many listening, if they've struggled in this area or they've watched someone struggle, they know that in sexual addiction, Getting stuck in patterns of secrecy, deception, dishonesty is just. It's really, really a common thing. And so why are those such common characteristics that go along with sexual addiction? Typically.

Yeah, these patterns of dishonesty Are common across all addictive behaviors, Whether it be a chemical addiction or behavioral addiction, like sex addiction. And often they're formed long before the addiction sets route. They actually form a big basis for the addiction. And I've had so many clients and men in my group that come across my doorstep that lying is. And covering up, and whether it be big lies or small white lies, Is just a pattern of life. And that keeps us stuck in that. Those addictive behaviors. So really, breaking through that denial and dealing with that secrecy Is the key to unlocking this whole thing. Adds to the shame reduction. And we can go into a little bit of that, how that interacts with the addiction cycle. But if we don't tackle that secrecy and start bringing what's hidden out into the open, we're never going to get free. And Ted likes to say, we're only as sick as our secrets. And that's so true. That just keeps us locked in our shame and in the isolating behaviors that just perpetuate the addiction.

Yeah, it's interesting you talked about it a little bit, Even in sharing your story, Brent, that people came up to you and thanked you for sharing your story. And I think the reason, in my mind, that the pattern of secrecy, deception, dishonesty Is because a culture of vulnerability Was not modeled for many of us in our home or in the church. And so for us, we don't know any better. I know for me, growing up, I didn't really hear much about my dad's struggles, and so I just assumed he was Superman and I'm Clark Kent. I can't relate to Superman. I've got daily struggles all the time. And so it didn't feel safe for me. And so that then led to shame, which led to pulling away, which then led to keeping secrets, being dishonest, and living in the dark in isolation. And so I think a lot of it can tie back to even the cultures that we grew up in not seeing this addressed. Oh, this isn't okay to talk about. So I guess I have to keep it to myself.

Yeah. And I think when we, we look at these topics, it can be easy for someone, whether they're kind of shaming themselves over it, or if you've been the, the, the betrayed family member or spouse or friend to just really be hurt by it. The feeling can be, man, this is just because they're a liar, they're a wicked, evil person. And I think it's helpful to maybe consider maybe another dynamic that many people stuck in sexual addiction are engaged in deception and lying because of self protection and self preservation. There's a sense of, like, I, I don't want to hurt you. And I know that when I hurt you, it's going to hurt me and it's going to be painful and awkward, like, and it seems easier. Like, I think that's what we convince ourselves. And again, again, I'm not in any way excusing or justifying. I mean, these are harmful, you know, destructive habits in any relationship, but it often is coming out of a place of, I just think this is going to make everything worse. And so as painful it is to maybe live in that double bind of secrecy, it feels maybe like the better choice until it gets so bad it can't be hidden. I think that's what we, we don't see when we're struggling in addiction, how much, just like you said, Brent, it is fueling and what we're doing and keeping us stuck. You know, I know for me, in my story too, it was this sense of, well, that was the last time. And this isn't really who I am. Like, like I wasn't trying to get away with a double life where I could hide all these, you know, my stash. And I just wanted to live in that. I really wanted to be free. And so when it would happen, it would feel like, oh, I feel horrible, I feel stupid, but that's not really who I am. That's not the essence of what I'm trying to be. And so I don't want to have to reveal that there's this part of me that's ugly and wicked and it's awkward to talk about. And since that's not really who I am, like, let's not talk about that anyway. And so it's like diverting attention to. To look over here, right? Like, look at the good part of me. Look at the part that is helpful and kind and serving and. And that's who I really am. That's what I want to be known as. So without maybe ever planning to, we get into this image management. And I think particularly in culture cultures where to, you know, to maybe be honest about things like pornography or sexual addiction feels like, you know, you're. You're taking on this mantle of something really shameful and wicked. Like nobody wants that in their life. And so there is this feeling again of self protection, like I'm gonna. I'm gonna avoid that label as long as I possibly can. And the only way to preserve that, you know, self protection is to enter into deception and lying. And so, again, I think it's just helpful to have a perspective that this isn't while. While the behaviors themselves, I think, are wicked and evil, it's often not coming out of wickedness in someone's heart, but some decisions they're making to try to preserve themselves and others from the pain and messiness of what they know is going on.

So, Brent, let's lean into that a little bit, because one of the things that is so key to a pure desire group is that piece of being honest in a group of all men, all women, who've been on the same road, on the same path that you're on. And so even though we know that there's the shared experience, there still is that fear of being honest in that context. Why is this?

Yeah, to take some language from Michael Dye. He talks about protective personalities. And we go into that. A little bit of the Seven Pillars of Freedom workbook in Pillar three, where Harry Flanagan laser labels those protective masks that we wear. Yeah, and I love Michael's language. In the Genesis process, he always asks this question. He says, why do I do the things I do? What's the benefit for me? So we always want to explore the why. There's always a why for everything that we do, whether it be good or bad. There's a reason why we do it. A lot of times it's around protection. And again, we don't set out typically to do harm to ourselves or others, but a lot of this is to. To. To avoid the pain and the discomfort of life. And we gravitate towards unhealthy ways to cope with that. And so some of these protective masks that we wear, some examples anger the hero mask, the rescuer over cheater, perfectionist, the critic. Those are all meant to create this. This bubble around ourselves that. That we can't get hurt by others. And so people coming into the group bring those masks with them, and part of the process of the group is kind of. Kind of break through that and create a safe environment where we can just be real versions of ourselves. We don't have to pose anymore. John Eldridge uses the term the poser in Wild at Heart. We don't have to be posers anymore. We can be real. We can be authentic. We can bring our true, authentic selves, our pains or sorrows. Fact that I relapsed this last week, and you come into group and you have a bunch of men or women who are going through betrayal beyond with you that understand where you're coming from because you're going through the same thing. And they can affirm you. Not. Not that we, as Nick was saying, approve of this choice of behaviors, but they can affirm you that you are. Are not dysfunctional or. Or that you are a broken person and not a reject by. By having this. Okay. Because we get in our minds that we're the only person that's dealing with this. And that's. That's where that shame thing and some of that stuff that you're talking about, Trevor, with. With how we grow up and the unintended messages we get from our families, it's not okay to.

To.

To share feelings with each other. It's just not okay to show fear or show emotion. And so some of those are overt messages, and some of them are covert messages. But in any case, we get this. This message growing up that's unsafe to be our authentic selves, and we got to pretend to be something else. And that's reinforced when we walk into church. Because, you know, what's. What's the question that's always asked, how you doing? And expected answer, I'm doing great. Yeah. You know, blessed, but. Yeah, I'm blessed. Yeah. But. But once you start, you know, talking about real life, then people just shut down because they don't know what to do with that. Yep.

And we wear those masks because we think that's what we need to do for people to accept us and like us. And. And we've listened to an idea under the surface that says if they really knew, if they knew all of your stuff, if they knew all the things you've did that you've done, they would reject you. And that fear of rejection, I think, keeps a lot of people trapped in the lies. And because we want to be accepted like we want to be a part of our social systems and our families. And if, if there's a lie that's telling us, if I'm really known, I'll be rejected and alone. No one's pursuing that way of living. And it thankfully is very often a lie that when we walk into the light in appropriate ways, you know, committed to pursuing honesty and a change of life that many of those people that we feared would reject us actually have the opportunity to affirm their love for us, to affirm their commitment to that. I'll walk through this with you. Not to act like the issues and the behaviors are fine and no big deal, that's not it at all. But to say there's going to be a sincerity of change that only happens when we can be known. And the other piece that I see and I think this was in my story. And for a lot of men, while we can maybe get to a place of acknowledging, well, yeah, a lot of people maybe struggle with lust or pornography. There's always a piece of our story that convinces us that we're uniquely bad. That somehow makes our story a little bit worse, a little bit, you know, more evil or wicked. And that fear of. And if they knew that piece, then they would know I'm really the worst of all and they'd get rid of me. And. And it's kind of that old phrase that says the devil is in the details. Right. I really think the enemy uses that against men and women to say, well, you can share this far. Yeah. But if you go all the way and what happens is we get trapped by the little bit left that nobody knows, it's just like I can't really share everything because of that little bit. And yet what I find over and over in group is like, while that little bit might be different from person to person, we all have it, right? We all have that bit of our story that, well, they don't know how often it was for me or they don't know the kind of pornography that I'm drawn to. They don't know the sorts of things that, that trigger lust and just make me feel like I'm so broken, I'm so wicked. And again, while it's different from person to person, that fear is universal. And so if we could acknowledge that and just say, man, the enemy is trying to keep us trapped in lies and fear. But if we would come out in to safe community where that's welcomed. Yeah, it really is so incredibly liberating and life giving.

And I think it's really like, just what comes to mind is how the church tends to handle specifically sexual sin. And this is not. I want to be clear, even as I'm getting into this. I'm not saying that the church is this awful place that, you know, shouldn't have people step down from ministry or remove them from positions of authority. But I will say, as someone who was struggling for 15 years of my life, sitting in church or going on to Twitter or the Internet, and seeing that another fallen pastor was ostracized from their community, and it's like, oh, okay, well, this. So whether that was the intent or not from that church, that was a message that reinforced, it's not safe to be honest about my struggles or it's not safe to ask for help. So I think in some ways, that can also perpetuate the issue. And so I think that my encouragement would not be that churches don't take the necessary steps they need to in order to protect their congregation. But I do think how. Here's what I would say. We need to think about how we're communicating it. What is being presented. How it's being presented in thinking who's going to receive this? Because there may be men or women sitting in our church that are also receiving this. So I just think a little bit more thought should also go into that, maybe help with the cultural stuff.

So, Brent, if we know this is a major struggle for people that are trying to break out of addictive patterns and destructive relationship issues, that honesty is going to be difficult. What. What does it practically look like to start taking steps to overcome that fear of being honest and being fully known by others?

I think really it's all set by the leader of the group to instill, like, in the very first weeks of the group, that culture of openness and honesty. And that starts with sharing your own story as a group leader to normalize discussion, that you're not the only one dealing with this. And I found, like, as I shared my story of how growing up, I had a dad that was emotionally disengaged, that I had a situation at age five where he beat me that was just so traumatizing to me that it created insecure attachment, that really set me up for the conditions for the addiction to show up later, that people start connecting with pieces of the story, said, yeah, that's me. And then, you know, as we. We bring it full circle, and as. As I share my recovery story and how God healed my marriage and how I married to my wife after 26 years and God has restored the intimacy in our relationship, then that gives them hope for change. And so it really starts with, you know, that. That one person, usually the group leader. And if I have a co leader, I'll have them share their story the first week as well. But taking that first courageous step to set the example. Yeah, okay. And then even as we look to pay it forward as even guys going through a group looking for opportunities to share your story, obviously in safe environments. But if you feel like your story can benefit somebody else, that opportunity to share and be open and honest can help someone else break out of that isolation as well.

Yeah. I think outside of the group context, too. And we talked about this, Nick, I think, in week one of the series when we were talking about breaking out of isolation, that find a safe person who, you know to be vulnerable, who's shared, you know, that they have struggles or is willing to be honest about where they're at in life. And there's. There's a risk involved, but you just have to try it. You just have to try being honest. And again, this isn't like, go to. Because I'll say this, even some of your closest friends may not be the safest people to tell those things to right now. And so think of that vulnerable person, you know, that safe person, and just try it. Because. And it's one of those things where it's almost like exercise. The more that you do it, the more the benefit will come, and you start to see it, and then it creates momentum. And it's like, okay, this is just how I'm gonna do life from now on, where that first, you know, anybody who's done this, when you start working out after not doing it for a long time, it's exhausting. Your body hurts, you wake up, you're like, do I really have to do this again? I really don't want to. But you kind of get momentum. But I really think it starts with picking a safe person and just trying it. And it doesn't mean you dump your entire story. It just means that maybe you're sharing one piece, something you've kind of kept in the dark or held close to your chest, that you're willing to be honest with the safe person.

Yeah. I think we know that telling someone is key. And I think, unfortunately, that's where sometimes the misguided advice of, you know, many places has been to go tell your spouse. And we go like, well, I need to tell someone. And it kind of feels like it affects them. And so we just blah all over the Spouse. And that's really not been helpful for many people because, yes, honesty needs to come into the marriage relationship, but that's not typically where you start. Like, it's finding that person that I can tell my whole story. And if it's for the first time, like, without leaving out any chapters or any details or any sentences, like, this is all of it. And with another safety, and that might be a counselor, that could be a group member, it could be someone walking the same road of you, that you're finally seeing it and facing it for yourself. Because that's one of the truths that if we're lying to others, we're also lying to ourselves. We're not able to see what we need to see. And when I can find another person or group or group of people that I can tell the whole story without anything left out, I begin to see my story differently. And in a way that when I do go to tell my spouse, I'm able to tell it in a way that's appropriate for that relationship without blame shifting, guilting them. Too much detail gaps that we remember and come back. I mean, that's the biggest thing I think that happens is we think we've told everything. And as painful and horrific as that is to the spouse, then they come back a day later and like, oh yeah, I forgot. And then a week later after a few more groups like, oh yeah, I forgot. And that is, I mean, as painful as one revelation is, the repeated revelation over time is, I think, far more damaging. So. So that's where it is in that sense, Trevor, it's like practice. It's like exercise of I need to learn to flex this honesty muscle. And as I get good at and I am confident I'm telling a truthful story without blaming, without guilting others, without leaving stuff out, then I can engage maybe in some of that relationship work that needs to happen. And you know, the other thing I would just say, because this isn't familiar territory for many of us, that's the value of doing something like a pure desire group that has not just weekly meetings where you come and share, but where you actually are doing some work outside of group. Because then part of telling the truth is just trusting the process and doing the work. And when you do the work, having that commitment to every exercise, I'm going to tell the whole truth and I'm not going to leave anything out. And I've even told guys in my group, I've said, there may be parts of your story you don't know if you're ready to share with our group yet. And that's okay. You need to write it all down though, because if you start writing your answers in the workbook, like, yeah, censoring your own writing. Because, like, I don't want to tell the groups I'm not going to write it. Like, you're really not going to heal. And so you need to write the brutal, honest, 100% truth. And if you get to group and realize some of it's not appropriate to share or you're not ready, hey, that's great. But at least start with telling yourself the whole truth. Getting into the habit of in a workbook that really is just for your benefit that you're 100% honest. And as you start to see that and become familiar with that language, then I think we learn to speak the truth to others and ultimately bring that way of truthfulness into our relationships.

Yep, that's a great point. And there's plenty of intersections during the seven pillars of freedom of where we have guys practice that leading up to the full disclosure pillar seven. And I even have the, the after my group leader and I share the first week, the next three weeks as we're going through the introduction, I'll have each of the group members share their story. I don't expect the same level of maybe as, as my story because they're still trying to figure the story out, but that gives them opportunity to, to try it out, like you're saying, Nick, and, and then be affirmed and not rejected by the group. So that's the first steps to creating that, that vulnerability and openness and honesty within the group setting.

So let's say that we're starting to develop this honesty muscle and we're starting to work it out and we're starting to get some traction in the group setting again with safe people, you know, in a, in a context like a pure desire group. How does that honesty in group start to flow out into our lives, marriages, relationships? And what should that honesty look like outside of group?

Yeah, so again, I like that analogy that you guys used of. It's kind of like trying on some shoes and practicing and getting them broken in. And, and so as the guys start to practice that in group each week to week, then it just naturally spills out into the rest of their life. And you know, there's a question that we, we ask every week. Have you lied to anyone this week, either directly or IND or directly. That's part of the group check in. And so each week they're practicing that and then that's That's a point of reflection. Okay. Have I been open, totally open and honest in all my relationships this week? And usually the guy will start, you know, round their primary relationship with their spouse if they're married and say, well, I wasn't totally open and honest about, you know, my seeking behavior, or I had relapse, I didn't tell her right away, that kind of thing. But then eventually, as it goes along that. That starts expanding. Well, you know, I told a white lie at work, or, you know, I was. Got a. A chicken or a hamburger, and I told my wife I got a chicken sandwich. And, and realizing that this. This pattern of lying is, you know, much bigger than just around their. Their addictive behavior. Actually had a guy. It's one of my clients, and we're talking about this. He said that in the previous week, he had this assignment for work, and his boss asked him, hey, did you complete this? And he said yes, knowing full well that he hadn't completed it. And he. He's like, in the moment, as it's coming out of my mouth, I'm saying, why are you saying that type of thing? And he ended up. It turned out to be not. Not a big deal. He's still able to go back with that prompting and complete the assignment and then finish it. So there's no repercussions over that. But then he just got so convicted that he wasn't totally open and honest in that relationship. They wouldn't have told his boss that. That he had lied to her and she just kind of brushed it off. But that, that's. That shows that progression of, you know, we start to self center after a while in groups, and our window of tolerance for. For both acting out and lying starts to narrow. And I think that's really the power of group to hold us accountable in these areas. And it kind of just naturally spills over. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's spot on, Brent, that we've been so focused on maybe this. This one area of our life that we've been so secretive about. We know we've been lying. And it's like when that gets out there, we feel like, oh, man, there's. There's honesty finally. And yet what we've missed is it in that desire kind of. That protective personalities, wearing a mask. We've been doing image management all over the place from, like, how we use our time. You know, why are you running late? What were you doing? And just not being aware of how that's become a way of life. And when that gets exposed. It is humming. And that's the word I was thinking about was just, this is an opportunity to develop humility. Because I know in that recovery process, there are many times I had to go back to people, to my spouse, and say, I realized I wasn't fully honest with you. And sometimes in the moment, you knew it immediately, like your story, Brent, of that guy. And sometimes you look back and go, wow, I didn't even think. Think about that. But I shaded the truth for my own benefit. And in learning to be a truth speaker, I need to go back and I need to acknowledge that and ask forgiveness. And I think there's something about that humility of, I'm not always going to do this perfectly, but I'm going to keep coming back and revisiting when I need to. It is like retraining our brain to think differently, to think truth first, and to start to see the value of, if I have nothing to hide, nothing to lose, nothing to, nothing to cover up. It's. It's a different way of life that many haven't known. And yet it does take that work that goes beyond just the sexual addiction or the struggles we've had with lust and pornography. So I. I think it's when our eyes are open to that, it's maybe taking the same level of sincerity and seriousness towards exposing all the patterns of lies in our life that we did to the. The big one that really maybe brought us into this process.

Yeah, I think to an extension of not telling secrets. Being dishonest is then beginning to honestly share your emotions, and you see how that creates intimacy in your relationships with your spouse, with your friends, with your children, then also honesty in identifying your needs. Because what's interesting is when you're able to identify that you identified your emotion, you've identified your need, and you're willing to be honest and share those things. Believe it or not, when people are more aware of your emotions and your needs, they actually want to help you and they want to come alongside you and support you. And what's funny is when those emotions and those needs in the past were not acknowledged by other people, that's some of the reason to go back into your old behavior. And so your honesty is almost going that extra step of preventing a relapse, because you're actually able to identify the things that you do need and get those things met in the way that I think God intended them to get met. And so I see it's not just outside of not keeping secrets. You start to share even more about what's really going on. And that has benefits.

Yeah.

This is a challenging couple's recovery because that can be very triggering for the spouse as the addict begins to be more honest in these other areas of lying, because then it. She activates back to the line about the sexual sin. But it's important to. To try to understand that the. The addict is working his way through this and being intentional about being open and honest about everything. So this is actually progress. It doesn't feel like it maybe.

Right.

It feels like maybe two steps backwards, but it's actually progress. And if you know her, she tries to deal with those emotions, can affirm him and that she doesn't have to be happy about it. It's kind of like when your kid comes and tells you, well, I lied about this, so I'm really disappointed that you did this, but I'm glad you told me.

Right.

If we could use some affirming language of saying, well, this is. I don't accept that, you know, and I'm glad, but I'm glad you're working on it. Yeah, that can be very helpful. Because otherwise, if the reaction is to further shame and blow up and diminish, then that just perpetuates those cycles that were established long ago that they're already stuck in. Yep.

Yeah. I mean, I would just underscore that, that when we have lies in our life, whether they're of sexual addiction nature or not, the person that it most directly affects is probably not the starting point. Because again, and I don't want people to hear me saying, oh, you don't have to tell them. That's not it at all. I just want to make sure when you tell them, you're equipped with the ability to be truthful and honest and ready to share that and not just think, well, if I just tell them, it'll break the pattern. Because often it doesn't. It is a process, and you need to start taking steps and be committed to that process even before you get to that point. And then having the support that when it goes sideways or blows up and inevitably will that, you don't just say, well, that was dumb. I'm never doing that again. That wasn't worth it. But you have people you can go back to and say, well, here's how it went and what do I do now? And they can encourage you to stay in it, to stay in this place and believe that ultimately you'll see the value and worth coming from it. So it is. It is a process. It's something that we keep working on, we keep doing. I, I think we've mentioned a lot in this series that this is an ongoing process of change and transformation. And so, Brent, just because we've, you know, started to get honest, maybe we're making progress in our journey. We've even perhaps done a full disclosure. But what is it, what does it look like to continually fight against that desire to go back to wearing a mask, to enter into half truths, to make ourself look good? How, how do we fight against some of those desires?

Like I said, this is self correcting to a degree as we're going through the recovery process and becoming healthier versions of self. I mentioned the tolerance, window shifting and narrowing of where what was just overlooked before now is like, you start becoming convicted. And a lot of this goes into what Dr. Tim Jennings says in the Conqueror series about the delta phosphorus in the brain, of how our consciousness becomes seared. That delta phosphorus is a neurochemical that reinforces the reward circuitry and desensitizes the aversion to the behavior. So as the guys start going through the groups and start establishing guardrails and boundaries, they start rewiring those neural pathways. And so we start breaking that cycle, starting new neural pathways to openness and honesty as we practice it. And then also that, you know, one of the key things that a group leader or a counselor can help you determine is, is why do I do this? Why did I lie about that cheeseburger? Or why did I, I lie to my boss when it was no big deal, but I lied anyway, and what am I trying to protect and when did that start in my life? If we can get to that point of origin of when it started, then we can often deal with the trauma, the woundedness around that that has caused this protective mass to form. And so like you said, this is a process. It's not an overnight thing or just a will to stop. But, you know, that commitment to change and commitment to the process, believing that it's going to lead me to a place where I want to be at the end is key. And that's, you know, every single part of that Seven Pillars of Freedom curriculum is meant to build on that process and take you through these steps so that by the end of that 10 months, then we're in a new place of openness and honesty. We may not be perfect, but we're not. We started.

Yeah. One of the things that I've noticed, because, you know, I'm in year, I'm soon to be into, maybe I already am I don't know. It's hard to keep track. I wish I had Brent's brain. He, like, knows 12 groups, 84 guys. This many lives saved, right? This many. You probably know how many times you've been in the air, in an airplane and all. It's amazing. I don't have that kind of brain, but in the way that I've thought through it, I've gotten to the point in a year nine of recovery where I still absolutely feel those polls for half truths to come out. And one of the things that just came to mind as we've been talking has been, what if we played the whole situation out? Okay, so I got a cheeseburger, and I told someone that I got a salad instead. Like, why? What are we trying to protect there? But then also, it's like, play it out. If I was honest with my wife, when I got home, I had a cheeseburger instead of a salad. Play that conversation out. How do you think that would go? And two things kind of come to mind there. One is you catastrophize it in your head that she's gonna be like, you big fatty. I can't believe you. You're sleeping on the couch tonight. Get out of here. Go. You know, like, I know I can do that. Tend to catastrophize this thing. And so you may end up with a reality that's actually much less than that. But at the same time, this is what I'm realizing that she may reinforce by saying her response may reinforce something I already believe about myself and carry shame with. And so if I get a cheeseburger, which I know I shouldn't, my fear is tied to the shame I actually feel. And I don't want someone else to call me out on that or to reinforce that reality. And so I think in some ways, if you play that out, that situation, you may end up getting to a point of like, oh, here's what's underneath that desire to lie, to be dishonest, to keep something that seems so simple a secret. And so I think that that would just be a suggestion. Maybe try that out. If you feel that pull to do a white lie, play it out and see what you can figure out.

Yeah, well. And even when we expose that kind of thinking, it's. It's revealing that I'm really finding my identity, value, and worth in the opinions of others, that it is what people think of me that matters most. And we know from scripture, we know that how God made us. That's not where our value, worth or identity comes from. But if we're being driven by a fear of what others think of me, it shows the ways that we've still put the opinion and value of others above maybe God's opinion in our life. And I would want to be careful to say there's no that. We're not trying to make any promise or guarantee that, hey, just tell the truth and it's not going to go as bad as you thought. Because I sure. I'm sure there's many people listening that are like, yeah, I was afraid of how it was going to go and I told the truth and I did. And it went even as bad and maybe worse than I thought.

Sure.

That sometimes facing the reality, taking responsibility is incredibly painful to you and to others. And still honesty is worth it. Facing that truth and learning to walk in truth and is, I think, just how we're invited to live, to live in this reality of a connection to who we really are and what's going on and not thinking that somehow faking it is making it better for everybody else. So that's where I was thinking along the lines of this question. I think a tool like the faster scale is really helpful because rather than just trying to sit down and go, well, what have you lied about this week? Because we may be so stuck in patterns, we don't see those real well if we sit down or doing this evaluation of where am I at on this emotional awareness inventory. Because really, the faster scale helps us see what are the fears that are driving me. And I would say that lies are often the byproduct of our fears, that what. What is driving us in fear is what makes us want to be half true about it or deceptive. And so the more you can stay connected to just the condition of your soul, where you're at in terms of your relationship with God and others, what's driving your fears, worries, doubts, that's going to help you see maybe where you're tempted to lie or where you have been living in some half truths. So I think just having that healthy rhythm of the faster scale. And then as Brent mentioned, when you do that group check in, having that routine of just, I'm committed in this group, that I'm going to tell the truth. And some weeks, maybe it's a breeze. It's like, I had a great week. I didn't lie about anyone or anything. And then other weeks it's like, I have to be honest. But if I'm in that routine that I do it week in and week out, that's where some real value starts to come. Because I think we see those patterns before they're happening and really get the strength and support of others to begin addressing them on that. That weekly basis.

Yep.

Okay, so let's wrap it up with this. And this is, you know, feel free to. It's funny, we used to do this, like, at the end of every episode. What encouragement would we give to listeners? And I think that that's really what this question is when it comes to being on honest in community, why is it so important? And why are we such advocates for honesty is so needed to have a true recovery journey?

Yeah, like I kind of led with. Honesty is the key to unlocking this whole addiction cycle. It really. The addiction really has its roots in the shame that has been mentioned during our time together. And shame is born of secrecy. And so the group provides an environment where that shame can be felt and reprocessed. As the addict is open and vulnerable. The addict begins to learn that their negative core beliefs are not true and that when they come and they are open with their group, they're not going to be rejected. And Dr. Carnes came up with a list of four native core beliefs around the addict. That I'm a bad, worthless person. No one will love me as I am. No one can meet my needs but me. And sex is my most important need. And it really goes back to what Nick said around that fear. That fear of rejection is so strong that we really hide behind the lies and dishonesty to protect ourselves because we're afraid if people really knew us, they'd reject us. And that's. That would go so deep that it takes a long time to unpackage that. But the group provides the environment to do that. So, like this study that Keystone center, their residential treatment center for sexual addiction, did, and they gave questions to a bunch of the men going through the recovery program. And the top statement that was endorsed as the single most healing aspect of recovery groups was revealing embarrassing things about myself and still being accepted by others. So group is a place where you can come and just lay it all out there. All. All the skeletons in the closet, the deepest, darkest things, the worst things you've done and still be accepted by the people in the group. And that. That's the safe place that really starts rolling back that shame of providing you a place for healing.

Yeah, I know. It's in the first chapter, the first pillar, first lesson in seven pillars, that there's that quote by M. Scott Peck that says that health is a commitment or A dedication to reality at all costs. And, you know, Ted Roberts adds to it, a radical commitment to honesty at all costs. And it, it really is just the starting point and foundation of recovery is I need to live in reality. I need to face what I need to face. I need to take responsibility for what I need to be responsible for. I need to take ownership for my actions. And I can't do any of that if I'm stuck in patterns of lying and deception. And I would want to just give one caution or, you know, kind of a disclaimer at the end. That, that, that commitment, that radical commitment to honesty doesn't mean we tell everyone everything all the time. That's good because that, that there, there is such a thing as oversharing. There is a. Such a thing as the right time and the right place, you know, the right audience that, that not everyone deserves or has earned the right to hear your whole story and every thought we have doesn't mean we've reengaged in sin. And now I should tell my spouse that I had this lustful thought. I mean, sometimes spouses feel like they ought to know that, but we've really. And that may be the topic of another podcast, but we've really tried to counsel, to say, you know, there's not a lot of value from the comes that try to share every thought you've ever had, because many of those are byproducts of sin and temptation or past fallenness or experiences that, that aren't really revealing the truth of our current struggle. They're actually kind of revealing the depth of sinfulness. And, you know, the book of Jeremiah says the human heart is desperately wicked who has measured its sinfulness. Like, if you want to know all the thoughts I've ever had, you're going to be pretty, like, probably surprised and grossed out. It's like, well, yeah, because that's what evil is. Evil's evil. And I've told guys in groups, like, even as you get a lot healthier and better, don't shame yourself if a very evil or perverse thought pops in your head because you can't clean up evil. You're not going to clean up your old nature. God said he's giving you a new heart and a new nature. He's giving you a new way of thinking. But if there's sinfulness in your life, if there's fallenness, like, it's going to be as evil as it ever was. Now, we do want to be 100% honest about decisions we make, actions we engage in you know, actual steps that we take. That's where honesty is needed. But every thought or urge or temptation from our past, like, because I've had people that in that spirit of I'm going to tell you everything, they're like, well, last night I had this dream, and here's my dream. It's like, no, don't. Your dream is not you. And that's not helpful to a spouse to hear some weird dream you had. But in our desire to be, you know, radically honest, we just think that's what it means. So I just want to encourage, be honest about actions, decisions, and do it with the right person at the right time. But don't just get into this mindset of thinking if I don't tell everybody everything, that I'm not being honest, because that's. There are extremes that we can go to that we just need to be mindful of.

A picture that comes to mind is someone who maybe breaks their foot and tries to tough it out. And people, like, they're never honest about the pain and they never go get help for it. Someone asks, like, where they go to the doctor, where are you at on the pain scale? It's like, I'm a zero. I'm fine. But over time, if that pain and you're not honest about it, that pain starts to fester and then it starts to impact other parts. You know, I think about this, like, if you ever hurt your foot and you don't go get it checked out or don't get in a cast or anything, you start walking different, which then affects your spine and your legs and your other, like. And then it creates more and more problems. And then your health, just like it all goes away because you weren't honest. And that's the picture I get that honesty is walking through the front door of now healing can actually take place because we've identified. Here's the problem. We've identified that, okay, this is where I have shame. This is where I need some work in my life. And so, yeah, I think it's really clear from really this entire conversation that honesty is such an important piece and really is. That's why we have it here in this series. It is such a key principle. And I think I would just emphasize here, too, that not just honesty, but honesty in a community that's on the same walk is so important. We've all experienced, the three of us have experienced experience, the power of pure desire groups, because we have people who have that shared experience. People are committed to the process together, and that's where we get to experience really the love of Christ in a lot of new ways that we never have because of that acceptance. So honesty is definitely the step toward that. Brent Dude, I'm just gonna tell you right now, this is not gonna be the last time you're on the show. We enjoyed having you and it's been cool to even hear your story, how you got here to Pure Desire. But just thank you man, for your time for being with us today.

Yeah, it's been great being with you.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. It helps other people find the show. If you want more information on our groups, resources, or counseling, go to PureDesire.org lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.