343 - Preventing Relapse (Principles of Recovery)

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Good morning, good afternoon, maybe even good evening. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 343 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stembo.

Houston, we've had a problem here.

We've had a problem.

Did you know that's the original actual quote?

I don't believe it.

We've had a problem. Not we have a problem.

Then why did they change?

Sounds better in the movies probably. You know when Tom Hanks said it. Houston, we have a problem.

Paul. 13.

Yeah, which really like they should have known when you gave it the number 13. Like even hotels skip that floor in a lot of them do. Okay, so why don't they just jump it?

I don't know, do they? Cause they're. Do launches actually come out of Houston? Cause I know a lot of launches come out of Florida. Are there also like, is Houston just where it is or do actual launches?

That's a good question.

Dwight is shaking his head. What do you got?

I'm not like a NASA genius, but I assume there's a NASA base in Houston, but the launch may have still happened.

Okay.

In Florida.

He says he'll tell me later. I want the information now. Okay.

Dwight's on the interactive podcast.

Thanks. I know. Which is some shows actually have. Don't get any ideas, Dwight, but some shows have mics for their producers. Anyways, we had Mike Maxwell on to close out our Principles of Recovery series. And we were talking about preventing relapse.

Yeah, I think an important consideration that healing is not just a one time process that we are continuing to heal. And what we need to take into account is on this journey, we're human. No matter how healthy we get, we don't cease to be human. And as humans we have limits. We have emotions and moods and good days and bad days. And so there are things that come up that we just need to have a plan and be ready. And I think of that quote, you know, Houston, we have a problem. You know, NASA had a problem. Yeah, thank you. NASA had thought through a multitude, you know, of what ifs and what then and now what do we do? And you know, if you watch the Tom Hanks movie, the uniqueness of their problems, like they hadn't really thought about what we do if this occurs. And so a whole team of people started to go to work on how do we solve a problem. And because they had a team in place and they had a methodology to employ. They were able to come up with some solutions. And I think that kind of speaks to our recovery plan, is that this isn't just, okay, you and your journal get away and figure out how to avoid relapse, it's how do I make sure I stay connected, like we've talked about in the other weeks here in these recovery principles, to a team of people that are going to help me problem solve that as my journey goes and as I get further and further into healing, as things come up, I've got people I can turn to, I've got tools that work for me and I can implement solutions. And it doesn't mean the mission has to crash and burn, that I can continue on the mission that God has given me. So I think today is great. Whether you're in day one of recovery or year 15, we are looking at just how do we stay healthy, how do we keep in flight and doing the things God's called us to? And that's part of that, is being aware of how do we prevent relapse.

I would just say if you are listening to this episode and maybe you're driving, there may be times where you want to pause it, pull over and write it down because there are some really good liners in here as well. We had a good time with Mike, so let's just get into it. Here's our last episode in the Principles of Recovery series with Mike Maxwell on preventing relapse. Mike Maxwell, thanks for being back with us, man.

Thanks, man. I'm usually on the other side of the wall in the bat cave.

That's right. That's right. It's been a while since we've had you, but it's good to have you back.

Yeah, thanks. Good to be back.

The bat cave. I like that.

It is kind of a bat cave. It's a loud bat cave too, because you have the AC unit up there too.

It's always just the neighbor revving his interest.

Oh, my gosh.

And that's what our book binding machine.

That is true. Or. Or is it Bob who plays the really loud clogging. Yeah, clogging music. It's a real thing.

People music.

Oh, okay.

And if you remember watching Home Alone, like the. The polka band there that John Candy leaves. That's like their music right there.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, let's not talk about. Well, actually, let's just use this opportunity to say that your donations help us find a better home. I will just say that. Okay, let's get into this is the last episode in the Principles of Recovery series that we've been doing. This is a five week series that we started going all the way through January. And today we're gonna look at how to create sexual health for the long haul. And the part that we're really talking about is what does it look like to prevent relapse as we keep going.

By the way, I have the perfect intro song for Nick.

You do?

Okay.

Okay.

Oops, I did it again.

There we go.

I'm hoping you'll sing it a little on the nose.

I mean, you've got other ones that are on the nose.

Yeah.

Last episode was Liar. When we're talking about honesty, that's pretty on the nose.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right, Mike. I think it's a great. That's a great idea. And listen, if Nick doesn't use it, I can just have them do it in post. Just put it in. It's perfect. The intro music, because we don't charge anything. Right, guys? We could totally do that. You can tell that it's a Friday afternoon while we're recording. So let's. Let's jump in just to make sure that we're, like, setting the stage. Right. How would we define relapse? Let's be really clear on what it is.

Well, the first thing I think of is three circles. Right. Is that inner circle. However, as I had this discussion with John, we were talking about it, I think that circle expands as you progress in your sobriety. So what might have been a relapse for me, what might have been a victory for me in year one, is now part of my relapse circle. You know, so because you're talking about.

The three circles tool.

Yeah.

From our recovery resources. And that the middle circle is identifying what relapse is. Yeah.

Free tool on our website. Download it now.

Yeah. Plug, plug, plug.

Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting because we had this discussion, it was actually quite good, of what is lapse? Relapse. Right. And so we just had a great conversation. So initially I would say it's that behavior in the inner circle that you say you don't want to engage in. That that's where your boundaries are.

Yeah, yeah. And when you say something that used to be a victory, you would now think of as a relapse, do you mean like the person who says, well, I, you know, I only went this far to that provocative site, but I didn't go all the way into pornography like I did in the past. And so initially, like, hey, that's Progress. But now it's like, hey, that even that initial step I think of as a relapse because I've defined that for me it's somewhere I don't want to go anymore. That's exactly what you're hitting at.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's using the definition of, you know, from the faster scale of returning to places that I promised God, myself or others I won't go back to. And that that could be, you know, the obvious things like pornography and masturbation, obviously physical affairs. But. But there are many, many other things that someone has identified as part of their destructive pattern. And they've realized even over time that the more I grow in health, the more clear I am that these are just not practices I can engage in in a healthy way. And so for us then that can become a relapse. And I think it does underscore too, especially as we move into healing. You know, initially the thought of relapse is so maybe frightening. If we're on the verge of losing our marriage, it's so embarrassing. Like we're attacking our recovery with this intensity that it's like, I don't ever want to relapse because all the fear associated with it. But I think there is something over time, not to ever say like relapse becomes okay, but if we are defining relapse differently as just anything that's part of that pattern, we might see that I need those things as reminders. I need them to be in that middle circle so I don't downplay them. And I'm not so much afraid of relapse itself, what will happen. I'm just afraid of reverting to my old unhealthy pattern. So I know that's like a small distinction because I think initially it's like, avoid this behavior, avoid going to that one place. And really it's like, no, what? I want to avoid moving away from health. And so I need to maybe add to what a relapse is so that I'm taking steps towards health and recovery long before I do go to some of those old unhealthy places.

Yeah. Because what comes to mind asking this question, and even what you guys have already said, it's like if someone who has a drug addiction or someone who's is addicted to alcohol, a relapse isn't just a one time thing. It ends up, you go on this bender where it's this extended thing and you're now living the same way that you used to before you started your recovery process. And so I think that that's what it is, is we already have these neuropathways in our brain, and so it's like lighting those up again. And our brain just goes on a cruise control. And we may get to the point where, you know, one relapse really means, like, three or four weeks of behavior, of stuff that we've been trying to stop doing. So I think that that's what you're talking about, is that it can really set you up for getting back into that old lifestyle you've been working really hard to get out of.

It's really interesting you brought that up, because I was talking to John and I said, I view a relapse kind of like I'm in a relay race, and I fall down. I immediately brush myself off. I get up and I continue running. That would be a lapse. I would say a relapse would be I fall down. I see a donut shop off to.

The side of the road.

I wander off to the donut shop, buy a dozen donuts, go into the alley and eat them, and someone has to come grab me and go, you got to get back in the race.

You're still in the race, dude.

Yeah, It's a very specific example.

I don't know, Mike.

Have you done that before Yesterday? I'm not sure. Yeah.

So let's talk about, you know, in recovery, what are some of the tools or elements of an effective plan that we would encourage someone to put in place for preventing relapse?

Yeah. So, you know, as you think about preventing a relapse prevention plan or something along those lines, the first thing I thought of is that awareness that initially takes place when you come into a group breaking that denial that I am an addict. I remember that first group going, I do not want to say I'm an addict. I just want to say I have a problem, and if I can quit looking at pornography in two or three weeks, I'm going to be good. So I think, you know, part of the process is becoming aware that I am an addict. Identifying my triggers, understanding my woundedness, my trauma, learning about the nature of addiction, recognizing the warning signs of cravings that lead to behavior, the effect on me, my personal health, and the harm that I'm causing to those around me. As I was thinking about this, I thought about those three questions that you ask. How long have you been doing this? Have you tried to quit? And who is it hurting? You know, and I think that's one of those things is we believe, or I believed. I'm not hurting anybody. Really? Yeah.

I think the only thing I'd add to the awareness thing is just understanding our patterns. Like, where that pattern starts, we talk about in seven pillars of freedom, the matrix of addiction. So what does that pattern look like? And that kind of. Once I start this first step, I don't even have to think about it. I'm already at relapse. And so trying to identify that definitely triggers. But then also I think part of it is identifying what replacement behaviors we're putting in place of those unwanted behaviors. What am I doing instead? And we used to talk about this in our events, I think of this video. Maybe we can put it in the show notes of this guy trying to teach himself how to ride a bike the wrong way. When he turns to the left, the bike goes right and vice versa. And how it took him a really long time to relearn that. And that idea that actually is in the video, he tries to ride a regular bicycle after learning this other way. And it takes him a while. He cannot do it. But then once he figures it out, it's like you watch his brain just click all the way back in. And so one of the things is that our brain is actually not able to forget habits. It's actually scientific. It's the way it works. You have to put something else in place in order to stop that habit. So I think that's another piece, too. So it's replacement behaviors.

Yeah. It's interesting, as we were talking about it yesterday, John and I, you know, when you go through group, you do certain things over and over and over. I have to do my faster scale. I have to do my check in. You do it 52 weeks almost, if it takes you that long. And you're like, why do I have to do this silly exercise every single week? But then what happens after you leave group, you begin to immediately go. I think I'm speeding up. And it's because you've ingrained it into your process over 52 weeks.

Yeah. What I was thinking about is one of the additional tools we have in some of our workbooks that we call the matrix of addiction. And it's where we have people really think through just what you were saying, Trevor, what is their pattern? And it's not only the actions, but what I think is so valuable, the excuses that accompany it. And beginning to recognize when I go into that old, unhealthy behavior, it's not an isolated incident. I remember when I started recovery, that was my fear of relapse because I thought it Looked like an inverted ekg that I would just be going along and then, boop, there'd be a relapse, like a heartbeat, but down, down into relapse. Then I'd be right back up and go along and boop, down into relapse. And then I saw that. Oh, it's never been that. There's always a pattern of, whether it's procrastination or, you know, excessive use of social media or just scrolling online and wasting time avoiding maybe a hard conversation. And I was taking these steps down. That was step one or the beginning of recognizing. But then it's associating the excuse. And so, like, let's say I'm wasting time online reading sports articles, which in and of itself, it's not bad to read about sports. There was nothing particularly triggering or provocative about those articles. But for me, if I was wasting time, the excuse was, oh, I just need this for now, or I just don't feel like hard work. And what helped me is that when I would hear myself making those statements in my own thinking, that began to be like a trigger warning or a red flag alert of, hey, this is your pattern. Not only the behavior you're doing, but what you're starting to tell yourself of. I just need this for now. I can control it. I won't go too far. And connecting the specific action and excuse just, I think, exposed a whole system that had maybe been there a lot longer and deeper than I realized, but also gave me some checkpoints much earlier on the journey to say, I need to reach out to someone, I need to change my circumstance. I need to implement a guardrail here. And that became then a much more effective plan than just waiting until, you know, all those wheels are turning towards the old pattern or behavior.

Yeah. So we're talking around a couple of these different tools, um, already. So let's just be really specific. What are tools we suggest men and women use when preventing relapse, when working toward that? And then how do we best use those tools?

Yeah, I mean, immediately. The faster scale is one of the ones that we really drill into the guys. And then as you go through the group three circles to help identify your guardrails, which is one of the things Nick was talking about, is those areas where I'm edging towards something. And I think one of the things I heard you say in a previous podcast that I thought was so interesting, Nick's, is being in that guardrail is not necessarily a relapse, but if you stay there long enough, you will end up in relapse. And so, you know, identifying what those guardrails are and becoming aware of them and then recognizing am I? Because some of those. Those things that they're on the edge, there could be healthy behaviors, but they can also be used as a form of numbing. When I was in counseling, my counselor forbid me from reading books for a while because he said that's part of your way of escaping, is you read books under the guise of self help, looking for something you think is missing. And so he said, you can only read the books I give you. And so there's a lot of what you might call white addictive behavior that can look good and it can be good, but it can also be a form of medicating. And I think becoming aware of that and recognizing that I am reading these sport pages or looking at videos or numbing out and binge watching TV because I'm trying to escape how I feel.

Yeah, I think having that relapse prevention plan three circles tool is clear where you've identified what a relapse is. You've identified your guardrails, you've identified your healthy behaviors. And another tool that we've seen be crucial is the recovery action plan. Or I think in some places too, it's been called a recovery relapse prevention plan.

No, there's like a. It used to be called safety plan.

Yeah, safety plan. I feel like in the unraveled we maybe have another name for it. But anyway, it's the same concept is it's defining ahead of time what are the steps I'm going to take proactively when I'm recovering from a relapse and it includes some natural and logical consequences that I have agreed to enter into it as a way of retraining my brain and teaching myself that this matters. And I don't want to go here and it's hurtful to other people. And so I want to kind of feel the hurt to me in ways that actually cause me to grow because my brain doesn't like to experience pain. And a lot of times when we're stuck in an addictive pattern, the only real pain we've experienced is our own guilt and shame and maybe that fear of people finding out. But then after a few days, maybe that goes away and we forget all those commitments we've made. But when we actually have to, you know, provide for our spouse to go on a day retreat for some health and recovery, when we have to sleep on the couch for a month because our spouse doesn't feel safe with us in the bedroom when we have to, you know, donate all of what we would normally spend on our hobbies or something for fun, when we have to donate that to a nonprofit that fights sex trafficking, those are things that now we feel in a different way. And the brain begins to connect the dots that when we're tempted to relapse or go to that behavior, the brain goes, whoa, this isn't. This isn't worth it. Because I already know. I've said, I will tell my group and my spouse and my pastor within 24 hours. I've agreed, I'll take these steps. And it's just like, well, suddenly the reasons of, well, it's not that big of a deal. It's like, no, it is. It is a big deal. And knowing it's there, it's kind of the Murphy's Law, like, if you have it, you won't need it, but if you don't have it, you'll wish you did, because then there's just not kind of the parameters in place to help you. So I think that. And honestly, a relapse prevention tool that we don't think of that way often enough is those regular phone calls to others that are on the recovery journey with us because we get too stuck in the habit. And, I mean, I know I fall into this where we just think, I'm doing fine. I don't need to make phone calls. I don't really want to spend time on this. But it's those regular phone calls when we're doing well that gets us in the pattern enough that when we do start to slip towards something unhealthy, we're already in the pattern of phone calls. So we're like, I need to call and talk to someone about this. Because what I have found is when we're not regularly making phone calls and we think, well, when I really need someone, I'll reach out. The truth is, once we get there, we don't. We come up with other reasons that they'll be busy, or I don't want to bother them, or I don't really need them, and we don't make the calls when we really do need it. And so that tool of, like, make your regular group phone calls week in and week out, especially when you don't need them, because that's going to set you up to actually make them when you do.

I think just another kind of peripheral one, too, is just accountability software. Having that's another good thing to have in your toolkit. And even as I say that Just to be clear that, like, all of the tools we're talking about, it's not just using just one, it's using them together in concert that actually does help. And the reason why I say that is because oftentimes, even before I started recovery, I thought accountability software was the recovery plan, and it's not. So these need to be used in conjunction with each other.

Yeah. Just a side note there. One of the guys in my group, part of his recovery action plan was that he had to go shoe shopping with his wife for two hours every time he had a failure. So he was really motivated to not do that.

You know what's funny is that sounds amazing to me. I'd love to go.

He really found that disturbing, huh? Yeah.

He's like, oh, my God, it's the worst thing ever. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

Well, hey, I say whatever it takes to communicate to your heart and your brain. We don't want to go there again. You know, as we've been discussing in this series, Mike, breaking out of isolation, being honest in community, are really important in this journey. And those are things that we can't do alone. We need others. And so how do others play a role in our plan to prevent relapse?

You know, they play a huge role. I wanted to share this story. When I first got in group, we were going through the book the Cure, and it's a parable. And one of the big ahas I got out of that book is when we have hidden sin in our life, we can't receive love because we know that the love that's being offered is uninformed. And so it was in that group for the first time, that I had actually exposed my deepest, darkest fears. And these guys still loved me. And it changed my whole life. That one thing changed my whole life. You know, the Bible says that we. We can love because we receive love from him first. The challenge is when we can't receive it, though, it doesn't flow through us. So it was after that healing that came from these guys loving me, even though they knew all about me, that I began to have a heart for wanting to help other guys.

Yeah.

And it changed my whole life. That was. Honestly, in my journey, that was probably one of the most pivotal moments, is recognizing that.

Aha.

That I have exposed this hidden sin, and people still chose to love me and release the shame and allowed me to love others.

And everyone who's listening to the show, I'm guaranteed, has heard me talk about my first time really sharing my full story. And it was, it was absolutely healing. Where it was something that was so lacking, which was, you know, fear of rejection or not being accepted. I received it in that moment in group when I shared my entire story, even the dark, you know, pockets of it. And that was. That was huge. And so it. And we've said this a lot, you know, at Pure Desire, not just on the show, but that idea that God's vertical love is expressed horizontally through relationships with his people. And so that's such an important piece. But also, like in group too, there are times where, you know, Nick, you've talked about this a lot. Blind spots, like, they're there because we can't see them. And so other people are like, hey, I don't know if you've noticed this, but you keep saying this and that's not actually what happened. Or I don't know if you realize that when you do this specific behavior, it actually takes you to the next behavior, which is the start of your, you know, of your whole pattern, you know, and then you go into relapse. And so I think it's important to have people there for that too. And then it's still. One of my favorite parts of group is seeing revelation come from other people sharing their story in group.

Amen.

They say something and it's like, oh, crap, I hadn't thought of it that way. Or you know what? I have the same experience. I didn't realize. And it's that idea of other people are helping you self actualize what has happened in your life in your own patterns and your own trauma. And so I feel like you can't do that without other people being in that group setting.

Even to this day, you know, I think I'm 12 years out from the initial start of this journey. 11 or 12. I love being in group because hearing these guys come in in their pain and begin to start this journey reminds me of where I was. And it's. I need that because it's easy to, over time, like Nick was talking about, you begin to let your guard down and you maybe coast. And my mentor used to say, there's only one way to coast. It's downhill. So you got to constantly be progressing forward.

That's good.

Yeah.

I think the power of other people too, and community is that it's just really easy if we're trying to do it by ourself to change the rules when it's convenient for us. You know, if I haven't really communicated to others my boundaries and guardrails or my commitments, maybe 95% of the time I'm fine holding those on my own. But when I'm in that place where my thinking's a little distorted, I've had a rough day, I'm looking for something to feel better. Those self imposed rules go out the window real fast. And to be like, well, you know, I'll pick up fresh next time versus if I know, hey, at group, I've committed to telling the truth and I'm going to be there in three days and I will have to tell them about this because I'm saying I'm going to be accountable to you. It just changes the equation. Or if I've told someone I'm making these regular calls to them to be accountable. Accountability takes it out of something that we're just controlling ourselves. I've talked about it as giving the keys of our recovery to someone else. We still have to be responsible for our actions and behaviors and moving forward. But in terms of the key where we can change a rule or a guardrail or how we use the Internet or the places we go that maybe have been part of our old story when we just say, I don't make that choice, I don't trust myself to make that choice because I've proven that I'm not trustworthy on my own. And that's not an admission like a failure or weakness. That's an admission of my need for others. And the truth is God made us with a need for others. God made us. Galatians 6:2 that we're called to bear one another's burdens, to help each other carry that load and not think I can just do it by myself. And so when we've made commitments to others and we've shown them, we've invited them into it, it just, it changes the equation from, well, it's me and my rules and then I change them when I want to. To being. No, I've. I've got a community of people that know what I'm working towards and that I'm going to report to. And now I'm just more easily. I wouldn't say easily. I'm, I'm. I have a greater likelihood that I will stick to that plan when I really don't feel like it.

For whatever reason. This came to mind just years ago. I felt like the Lord gave me the phrase specifically to Galatians 6 share to bear. I have to first share in order for other people to bear that burden with me. And that's just always been. It's funny, I can think of three Friends who make fun of me and always quote those three words to me. But it is really, really important.

No, I'm going to join them.

Well, and you can lift so much more when you're with other people. You know, it's just. It's amazing.

You know, as you were talking, Nick, it reminded me of when, before I ever really got in group. But I knew I had a problem. I was like, just like you said, I need accountability software that's going to solve this problem. So I got Netnanny. I don't even know if they're still around.

That just sounds like an old tech company.

I put netnanny on my computer and you know, you're like, okay, I've got it nailed down. And a week later you're like, nobody's home. I'm circling the laptop. I'm just going to put the password in, right? Turn it off. I'll look at porn. And then. So you do that a couple times and you're like, I can't trust myself. Just like you said. So what I did was I created like a 25 random digit password and I put it in and then I burned the piece of paper. It kept the Net nanny on there. But that's why.

That's white knuckling right there. That's a definition of white knuckling.

The thing was, I did not want to tell anybody.

Right.

That was my desperate attempt to try and stop my behavior by myself.

Right?

Yeah.

Okay. So a big piece of preventing relapse, and we've already talked a little bit about this, is finding replacement behaviors for our addictive ones. So what are good replacement behaviors and how do we prioritize those as we go through our recovery journey?

You know, I'm thinking the outer circle and the three circles. All you this healthy behaviors. And it's so interesting in group, when guys do this exercise, they can. They can fill the center out really quick. They can kind of fill out the center one, but then they get that out of the outer ring and it's like, I don't know what to put in.

Yeah, go to church, read my Bible.

Right. Devo life, you know, So, I mean, the way I'd prioritize those things initially are those basic health needs. Your sleep diet and then your family pickleball. Family time, pickleball, exercise. By the way, Heidi had her first tournament today. She lost all four games.

Oh, no.

I knew pickleball was coming in here some way.

If you weren't gonna bring it up, I had to throw it in there. I Know you and like, what is it? A couple other guys from the office.

You and the whole nation are like becoming pickleball crazed. And I'm. I, like, I'm the only one not.

I don't think it's becoming. I think it is like the crazes there.

Anyways, anyway, so, you know, I would start.

We digress.

Those basic health behaviors, your family, your connection with your family and your kids. You know, one of the things I thought about as I. When I think about that outer circle and one of the books I read as I was going through this journey early on, before I was remarried, was the Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller. And what I took out of that was this woman and these children that God gives you are a gift from him. It's his daughter, and those children are his children. And the way you treat them and serve them is an act of worship. So I, I've tried to incorporate that in my attitude because I. I'm a pretty selfish guy, right? We've been reaping selfish behavior all our lives. So I try to incorporate. Incorporate that in there. And then, of course, beyond that, you know, there's hobbies, and we all have different hobbies. You know, some people run. I even know a guy who makes candles. You know, all kinds of crazy.

He's talking about you and me, by the way.

I just want to clarify. I am not the candle guy.

Hey, I am just for information. I make my own candles.

You know, one of the things I try to encourage people in groups to think about is that coping in and of itself is not bad. In fact, there are ways in which coping is a normal human reaction to things that I'm not sure how to carry in the moment, what to do about. And for all of us, we're going to hit points in life where we're just like, I'm overwhelmed and I'm not sure where to go. And sometimes in those moments, for legitimate reasons, we don't feel, especially if we're maybe not a people person or as extroverted, or maybe we've been extroverted all day and we're just kind of drained. And if all of our recovery plans involve other people, which I want to say, other people are always helpful, but I think sooner or later we might hit points where we're just like, I feel like coping. And so I said, identify. What are things you can cope with that don't lead to your old unhealthy behavior. Now, I'll give an example. For me, it was times I've had Different periods in my life where I struggle with falling asleep. And so if I'm up alone late at night in the house, that obviously could be a temptation zone. But I had to define, well, what are something I can do that doesn't require me to maybe get ahold of another person at midnight, doesn't require me to leave my house to try to pursue a hobby. So I have things like there's DVDs that we own that are safe, non sexually triggering. And when I'm just in that place, like for whatever reason I can't sleep, I can throw on the Lord of the Rings or, you know, a Jason Bourne movie or something, you know, maybe for others that's not your thing or your kind of movie, but something that does allow me just to unwind, not have to engage. But I also know I'm not triggered to then go do the next thing. And so for you, it might be cranking up the jazz music with a glass of wine in your hand. For someone else, it might be taking a hot shower or a bath. For someone else, it might be just getting to take a nap. I mean, you've got to have not only. Yeah, you've got to have not only those coping behaviors that are proactive, like getting exercise and calling a group member. And I think when we're on our game and we're nailing it, those things are so helpful. But you are going to hit those moments where it's just like nothing like proactive. It all feels like too much work. And our brain kind of gravitates to easy, simple. And I think answering for yourself, when I get in that mode, here are actually some safe coping things that I enjoy, but they're not triggering for me. And for every person that might look different, but it's like, oh, okay, I'm going to do that. Because in that moment of temptation when you've got an alternative that you also enjoy. You know, we hear Rodney on the podcast a lot, really joke about dopamine. But at a brain level, it's true. Partly your brain is seeking some dopamine to get kind of a pick me up. And so if it can be something just like a good old movie or a song or, or heaven forbid, even eating that donut or drinking that cup of coffee, like, if that is keeping you from a much more destructive pattern, I'd rather you drink the coffee or eat the donut than go back to your addictive behavior. And I think your spouses and friends would agree, like, let's find the ones that don't cause long term pain and damage to our relationships, but that keep you in a safe place.

I think there's stuff too you can do to be proactive in the sense of scheduling. Like if you schedule something, it gets done. And I think it's important that we do put on our calendar. I am going to go do this self care behavior on Wednesday at 6pm and I mean obviously you want to have those things that maybe when you're in a situation where you don't know what to do, it's, you need to have both. But I think that scheduling it is also a really important thing. And I've run into situations where you have to have that conversation with your spouse or with your family to make sure you're not cutting, you know, you're not isolating or pulling away. But if you can be proactive and schedule those things too. Because I think especially when you're on the road to recovery, there's something I know for me that feels selfish about self care or asking for it. And then also we've had these patterns of not prioritizing us and our health and what we need. And so it's not a muscle we've developed. And I think scheduling will help us lean into that more.

You know, you reminded me, Nick, as you were talking when I was going through counseling, my counselor one day said, I want to, I want to give you a scenario. Let's say you walk into Starbucks for your morning coffee and you're in line and you notice that the girl in front of you has a body type that's ringing your bell and she smells really good and you start to fantasize about what does she look like? And oh, you know, she's, she'd be always sexual. You just start going there. And he said, what do you do? What, what are you going to do? He said, you feel the chemical flesh. You guys know what I'm talking about, where it's like I feel that flush. I'm like getting, you know, aroused. He's like, what do you do? What would you normally do in your old behavior? I said, well, I'd probably just imagine what she was like and probably take that home sometime later and masturbate. He goes, well, okay, what, what other things could you do to flush those chemicals? He said, because if you can sit with that long enough and flush the chemicals, your brain will come back. And so we talked through a couple of things, but one of the exercises that he gave me that was so helpful, he goes, when you feel that way, what I want you to do is I want you to begin to notice, like, the crack in the sidewalk or the picture of the color of that flower or the smell of the air. And he goes, do you know what I'm doing? And I said, well, I think you're trying to make me be present. And he said, that's exactly what I'm doing. He goes, you can't be in a fantasy world and present at the same time. So he said, I'm trying to bring you back to being present. And that little trick has helped me so many times. And particularly for me, it probably the strongest one is smell. Like if I walk outside and I breathe in and smell the air, our air has a smell. It smells clean and crisp and delicious, you know, and it has really helped me because, you know, his. His whole thing was, you can live in the fantasy of the past or you can live in the fantasy of the future, but you can't be present with either one. And I like that. It has been so helpful for me.

You've got some zingers today, dude. You've been hanging out with some cool people.

You know, that's one of the things I've. I've practiced said to people in conferences of using imagination for our good. Because I think the enemy or our sinful nature, whatever you want to think of that as, uses our imagination against us. But we want to remember imagination is a gift from God. It's God given that we can imagine anything. And so unfortunately, we've just been imagining things that take us towards the fantasy. And I've said to men in particular, like, just imagine the full. Like, go further with, don't stop it. Like, well, we hooked up and it was this amazing experience. Like, well, then imagine you have to go tell your kids that you're moving out of the house to go be with this other woman and imagine the look on their faces. And imagine that this woman is vindictive. And every night when you come home from work, she's just going to berate you for things you don't do. She's going to make you feel terrible. She's going to cheat on you. She's an alcoholic. And it's like there's a part. It's like, well, I don't know if that's true. It's like, well, yeah, you don't know if the other stuff that you've been thinking about is true either. It's just your brain has learned to gravitate to that good stuff. Like, just start imagining a different story to the Point where your brain's like, ugh, I don't want it. I don't want that. Like, I guess what. I guess what I have is okay, I think maybe I'll stick with that and not. So use your imagination in ways that do propel you to what you want and what God has already given you and towards gratitude, rather than letting imagination only be a tool of the enemy. So I think there are. But I also agree, being grounded in reality. And if, if you do have imagination, like, we'll just use it in ways that. That support you and not work against you.

That's good.

That was one of the other tricks that I. And I can't remember if I got this from Greg, my counselor or not, but when I'd see a beautiful girl, he goes, don't deny that she's beautiful. She is beautiful, but she's not the one God gave you. Yeah, right. And then express gratitude for the wife that you have and the good qualities that she.

Attractive people are never going away. They're not going away. There's never going to be in a world of.

What are we at? 8 billion people? Like, you're going to just see someone that you find attractive sooner or later?

Yes, yes.

You know, Mike, I think this is a crucial question for a lot of our listeners where recovery in that initial zone, you know, we're. We're focused. We're, you know, we're maybe overcoming some pain of exposure, being caught, found out we've hit rock bottom, whatever that has meant in our story. And there can be tremendous growth and momentum. And then we do, sooner or later, everyone arrives at a place that's like, man, I've. I've really changed. And there can be in that kind of season, a tendency for our focus on recovery to start to wane. Because maybe the reasons that drove us into it, kicking the behavior, healing a relationship we feel like are happening. And so we start to lose focus. And we unfortunately hear that a lot of people that are in that two to five years of recovery that start to have a pattern of some relapses coming back in. So what can we do to avoid that happening? If we have experienced a season of health and freedom and are now maybe in that in between place of not wanting to slip backwards.

Yeah. Let me preface this with kind of a backstory here. In the way I think when I was going through my addiction, and I still think this way is, I read the verse in Proverbs that says, those who worship idol or those who make idols become like them. And I read that, and I went, what idol am I making? And it came to me that I'm making an idol of lust. And in doing so, I've become increasingly lustful and increasingly selfish. You know, in the New Testament says, God will not be mocked. Whatever a man sows, that will, he also reap. And so I began to think, okay, if I'm sowing seeds of lust and selfishness, how do I reverse that? And I began to think about, I have to find ways to give back. And so the way I look at this is I go, I can lead a group. I can start serving my wife and my children in an intentional way. I can lead a group, which is. I think I referenced this before, is part of the reason I love leading a group is because it keeps the woundedness fresh, because I see the pain that people are going through, and it makes me go, don't ever go back there. You don't want to go back. Look at what you have. You don't want to lose that. You could serve in your church. I encourage guys to serve in their church in some way or find a way to invest in other people so that it's not about you. Because I think that the behaviors, those guardrail behaviors that we are engaging in, are increasingly selfish. And ultimately, like you said, they will lead us back to relapse. And so if we can focus on others and ways to give back and invest in other people, I think that's probably the primary way, at least in my own life, that I've tried to keep the passion.

Just personally, I literally thought the same thing, because I think that. And I've experienced this over the last few years where it becomes far less about what I do or what I used to do. And now my motivation has changed to who am I becoming like? And what you're talking about, too, is legacy. What am I passing on? And so, like, focusing on not only who I'm becoming, but the ministry that I now have with the story that I have with. With the work that I've done. And I think that that's something I've been exploring over the last couple of years really has just been this idea that you create a lot of momentum at the beginning because there's crisis and there's pain. That's like, I just disclosed what's been going on. And there's this hyper motivation. I could lose my marriage or my job or my family if I don't do it. And then when crisis dies down, it's just kind of like, cool. I'm Just kind of chilling. And that's where that coasting can happen. And so I think that in that we have to make sure our motivation changes too. It's not just how do I heal all this brokenness that I've, you know, I'm sowing with my decisions. And now think about who am I becoming? What kind of trajectory am I setting, what kind of father, spouse, you know, friend, co worker do I want to be? And so I love that because it's shifting the perspective, not just what I'm doing, but I'm thinking about what kind of legacy I'm now leaving behind me.

Yeah, the other thing, you know, my mentor shout out to Nathan had always said, you don't wait to fortify the walls until the enemy is attacking. You know, you fortify or build. You prepare for the enemy when you're strong. And so knowing that I'm human and, you know, temptation never goes away, like you said, beautiful people are all around us. They're going to be there forever, and temptation is always there. We are human. We're broken. And so you just have to go, I'm capable. I'm one decision away from really screwing up and relapsing. And then I have to tell my wife and all the pain and suffering that comes along with that. And so you just go, I have to plan for failure when I'm strong, plan to defend against it while I'm strong.

Well, we've talked about the tool several times already, but I think that three Circles tool is a lifetime tool. And we might want to start calling it something different, like, because relapse prevention, it's like, well, I'm not that worried about relapse because I've been doing so well. Okay, well, that may be a little overconfidence, but if you'd like, you know, call it your healthy living plan, call it your, you know, lifetime growth plan that shows. Here's the activities that bring me a sense of peace and fulfillment and purpose. Here's the activities I have to avoid because for me, they represent old, unhealthy patterns. And here are my ongoing lifelong commitments to things I've covenanted to, covenanted to God, myself, and others that I don't want to do. I'm not going back there. And I've really encouraged people that should be a monthly, at least thing of a document you review, you know, just for your personal health. Like, hey, a checkpoint. How am I doing? What steps am I taking? How am I staying active and fresh? And if you realize there's areas you've started to slip, you know, being able to take those to other people and have conversations. Because when that plan is in front of you and it's something you're building around and it includes, you know, those faith elements of how are you growing in Christ and inviting the power of God into your life and leaning on the Holy Spirit and, you know, being a person of prayer and in the word of God, like, when those, like you say, Trevor, those become more about who am I becoming, what am I leaning into? And I do keep in mind the things that I have to be cautious with. Those two together, you know, keep me on that road towards growth and recovery. You know, I just heard recently, boy, I wish I could remember works. I'd love to give credit where credit's due, but someone said, it doesn't matter how far down the road I go, the ditch is always the same distance away.

Nate Larkin. Nate Larkin says that.

Was that a Nate Larkin? Because we can be so far in recovery, but that ditch is still a couple decisions, even though we're healthy. And another way, I've thought about it because sometimes I can feel this performance orientation. I know shocker of like, well, I've grown so much. Why do I still need guardrails? Right? It feels like I'm a kid, like, that needs bumpers on my bowling alley. I was like, I should be able to just bowl without that. And I've thought about that. The higher you get up on a mountain, guardrails become more important, not less, because the distance of the fall is a lot further and the pain it causes is much deeper. And so it may not be, you know, when I'm driving up over the Mount Hood area and over a mountain pass, it's not that I'm terrified I'm going to run off the road, but those are the places I'm really glad there are guardrails. I'm really glad at those heights that there's something to keep me safe, even though, Lord willing, I will never need them. So rather than in our growth, starting to regret, why do I need guardrails? It just becomes a byproduct of my wisdom that I just don't want to assume I'm going to be safe because I'm getting higher up in responsibilities in life and people that look up to me. And so just being okay with, like, this is my way of life and it will be forever. I'm not going to ever outgrow this need for a growth plan and guardrails. And that's not a sign of Immaturity or weakness. It's just humility and understanding. I'm human and I'm not perfect. And so if we see that, I think we can accept some of those tools as helpful guides for the rest of our life.

Yeah, it's so good. That is really good.

I don't know if you guys have thought of it this way before, but the three circles tool could almost be like a rule of life. You know that monastic practice of like putting structure around. This is the way I will live my life. That really you could look at it that way. That it is something. Absolutely. That's a good one of the things.

I would love to See in pillar 7 of 7 Pillars going forward is more of a legacy focus, you know, identifying who I am, almost like creating a mission statement for your life. Saying these are the values. Identifying the values that are important to me, how I'm going to live these out, how I'm going to incorporate them into the decisions that I make going forward.

Or if only we had like a follow up workbook to the seven Pillars where men could like go into some of those themes.

We do Passionate Warrior.

Yeah.

Hey, that's a great title.

The Compassionate warrior does unpack more of those themes. So beautiful. Highly recommend that for men that have done seven pillars.

Didn't have to pay me for that.

No, that's right.

That was a great.

Yep, that's right.

You are now on the marketing team. Mike, Congratulations. Okay, so it may be obviously a no brainer and even just because of our conversation why it's important, but let's just silver line it right now. Like why is it important to put a plan in place to prevent relapse on the recovery journey?

I mean, I think we touched on before. We are human. No matter. No one's perfect. You know, temptation is going to come. It's not going away. You're going to be hungry, angry, lonely, tired and the devil's going to hit you and you're going to have a choice to make. Are you going to make those phone calls or what are you going to do to run away or are you just going to give in? And so I think it's just, you know, I was thinking of this. I'm like trying to be a pastor here, right? It's like do it. Aware, prepare, beware.

Right, so say them again, repeat them.

Aware, prepare, beware. So you, you become aware. You prepare knowing that you are weak and then you're wary, looking for the dangers. You're vigilant because they are around you. All the time.

Yeah, I think it's kind of the idea of why would a, you know, experienced mountaineer backpacker have a safety first aid kit in their backpack? It's not that they plan to get hurt and plan to do something foolish, but they also know that there's dangers out there. There's things they're going to run into, and there's that thought of it's better to be prepared than not at all. You know, we use it on one of our tools where we say, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. No, those who. Yeah, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. Yeah, I'm saying, I get it, all the words are too close. It's too close of a quote for me. But yeah, just it's like if we think we're never going to need it, we're not being the problem isn't just not having it. It's not being aware that there are dangers lurking in this world. You know, First Peter 5, that your enemy, the devil, you know, a real enemy, he says, is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. And if we believe what the Bible says, like we have to believe there's an enemy that would like to crush our souls and devour them. And who's that going to happen to? Well, I'll tell you, it's someone who's not prepared, not being honest, not in community, not aware of their weaknesses, and staying humble to others. So it just. There's wisdom in having a plan and Lord willing, some of those things we won't need because we do continue to mature and grow. And the things that we find appealing will change. Our appetites start to change and become more glorifying to God and honoring of him. But we still are human beings and we have to have an awareness that there are dangers in this world. And the more prepared I am, the less likely that it's going to be something that trips me up and causes a lot of damage.

Nobody likes insurance till you need it.

That's true. Just a thing I'd add, I guess, is just that on a biological level, your brain never forgets that pathway. Like it may have been a superhighway and now looks like a highway from the walking dead, but it's still a highway. And if you start going down that path, your brain's gonna be like, oh, yeah, I remember this. And it's gonna want to reinforce it. And so I think that we just, even at a biological level, being aware that we need to be vigilant, experience.

That even now you're, you know, doing something on the News site and 40 hottest in a full wives pops up on their head and you're like, I. I really would like to click, you know.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah. And again, it is true. But why? But, like, knowing that something as simple as that is an attack is coming from the enemy that wants to trip us up.

Get in.

Yeah.

So keeping the whole chocolate cake, Mike, you've had so. I'm telling you, man, so many zingers today, dude. I. I'm all for it.

I think the guy maybe needs to go have dinner, too. Donuts, cake.

I have been dieting.

That's fair. No, but, yeah. Thank you for wrapping us up on this last episode of this series. I think this has been awesome and it's been great to have you back with us.

So thanks for being so much fun.

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