344 - The Order Of Intimacy w/ Phil & Priscilla Fretwell

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 344 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

And step and step and step and kick and kick and kick.

I think I know where you're going.

Step and step.

Yeah, I have no idea what that is, but I think I know where you're going with the intro.

Ah, well, that's good. It's a good start.

So help.

You know, I think the guy's name from the 80s that made all the workout videos, was it Gene Simmons?

No, Gene Simmons is the singer. It's Richard.

What?

Richard Simmons.

Richard Simmons.

Richard Simmons, yeah. Gene Simmons is the kiss guy. Yeah, yeah. Long tongue. Different guy.

Yeah.

Slightly different hairstyle. It's.

It was the Richard Simmons curly hair, kind of like a little bald on top. It was always a crack up. But, you know, he was kind of the forerunner of the exercise videos.

And thank, thank you, Dwight, for filling.

That in for us, our producer, stepping and kicking. And did you know that Pauly Shore.

Is in a movie and he's playing Richard Simmons?

He sounds like a great actor for Richard Simmons.

Oh, my gosh. I just don't even. Anyways, okay, so as you said, spirit you use, you have this. I think many people know the spiritual gift almost of being able to tie that in. But we had Phil and Priscilla Fretwell on and they have a marriage ministry called Savage Marriage, and they have a book, they have a study guide, they have a podcast, podcast, all of that. But one of the things they talk about in their resources is the order of intimacy, how it develops. And we had them on really specifically to talk about that.

Yeah, actually a couple of ways that this intro could connect that there are, I think, some steps to intimacy as God designed and really created to happen in a marriage, relationships. And if we've never thought about it, like, we may be really getting things out of order and experiencing maybe some unhealth or a lack of connection that we've never quite been able to piece together until we think through it in this lens. And it's like, oh, if we would take some steps and follow this pattern, there might be some real health that comes from it. The other thing that made me think of steps was because I think for many couples, what brings them to our podcast, to pure desire, what's probably got them checking out this episode is they're in recovery over sexual betrayal. Sexual addiction, someone's struggle with pornography or acting out in the marriage. And when you're in that season, the crisis is what gets you going. And it really is, we need to stop a behavior. We need to address the pain. We need to experience change. And we have a lot of couples that come and, you know, he does Seven Pillars, and she does Betrayal and Beyond, or she does Unravel and he does a Hope for Men study. And they're both growing individually, they're both making strides that the behavior is starting to change. And then there comes this moment. It's like, now, what. What's the next step? Where do we go from here? Because we're starting to get some traction, but we don't have a clear pathway to start to come back together. And so we've had couples that'll use the Sexual Integrity 101 video series to watch that together or the Connected Workbook. But that's an area where for Pure Desire, we've been able to network with a lot of other marriage ministries because we feel like in some ways, that's the lane marriage ministries run in. And we're here to kind of get you to that point where you. You're healthy enough to re engage in really taking that marriage deeper with all of the principles you've learned in your Pure Desire group. And so I think Phil and Priscilla are just one great example of that. Some trusted resources that we could say, hey, check out their workbook, check out their material, because they're going to help you as you've developed that traction in your own recovery and as a couple started to work through the pain and the behavior itself to go to that next step. And so I think today you'll really catch a little flavor for why we like them and why we like the material. And hopefully you'll be able to consider using their workbook or their book or their podcast as another resource in your marriage toolkit.

Yeah. And again, we'll have links to those in the show notes, but let's just get into our time with Phil and Priscilla Fretwell on the order of intimacy. All right, Phil and Priscilla, thank you for being with us, and welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Thank you. We're glad to be here. Great to connect with you guys.

So, Phil, you and I connected not that long ago. You guys have a ministry called Savage Marriage, and we have right here. Dwight, go to the long shot here so they can see it. You guys have a book and a workbook called Savage Marriage, and you've written a number of resources on marriage, we wanted to explore a topic specifically that you guys cover in your material. And Phil, it's one of the ones you and I talked about. It's the order of intimacy, which I think is such an interesting topic and is something maybe, well, not even maybe. Many people misunderstand intimacy in general, let alone the order of how it's developed and created in relationships. So we're excited to spend some time together with you guys. But as this is the first time on our show, maybe listeners don't know about you guys, your ministry, your resources. Will you just tell us about yourselves and the ministry you both have?

We've been married for 34 years, right?

34, 35.

35. We're on our 35th year. And there it was nip and tuck.

There, but we made it.

But we made it to 35. And we have five children and three grandchildren and three of our kids are married. So yeah, we have a big full house and our last two in our home are teenagers.

I never thought I'd be where I am in life and still have teenagers at home. So we're making this like a full life journey of raising kids.

Did you see what he did? He didn't say how old is. He just said the season of life. Very. That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah. But our journey, you know, we've had 35 years of marriage, but for 28 years we were really religious hypocrites. We really were. Because I was living a life of immorality the whole time for 28 years that started with pornography, but then wound up with massage parlors. And all this time I'm elder in our church, chairman of the elders. And we're really trying to live a perfect looking life during that whole time.

Yeah. And you would think that I didn't have any problems, but I did too. Not as extreme as Phil's, but I definitely was a self righteous hypocrite. Also, I did not have a relation, an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus. I had a perfunctory relationship of going to church and being very involved in anything with church. But inside my heart, my soul, there was a lot of pain and in isolation from God and from people.

So about seven years ago, God really rescued our marriage. And I shared all my life with Priscilla that things she didn't know about. And then also with all our kids, our extended family, our church family and God really just put us on a completely different area of intimacy, which is a great topic for today.

And tell us a little bit too about what does Savage, sorry, Savage Marriage. Do you guys. Do you coach couples? Do you counsel? Do you do events? Is it just writing? Like, tell us a little bit about how your ministry helps couples.

Yeah, so it started with some small groups at our house and it really was like a year and a half after I came clean. And God, just really, it happened so fast. We were really shocked. But we started leading some small groups and then we were encouraged to write some books. And so we put out a book. We put out a study guide.

We did the study guide first and then the book.

Yeah, people told us we did it in bad order, but, you know, we did what we did and so we did that and then we. So today we coach couples, we speak at conferences and events, and we've recently started doing some things with singles, which has really, really been fantastic. It's so much better to. And more rewarding to speak to people that have three or five years of sexual baggage instead of 30 or 50.

Yeah, for sure.

And so that's been really, really, really great.

I know Dr. Ted Roberts, who founded Pure Desire, would always say that when people came to him in their 50s and beyond and they're battling through decades of sexual struggles and addiction, he said it felt like he had to take a two by four to their soul to get them to wake up to what the patterns where they're in. Because it's just the longer you've been in it, the harder it is to see how deep it goes. And anyway, that's another conversation for another day. We want to jump in to this topic of intimacy and we've touched on it on a couple of podcasts. But I think a lot of people have never really defined or thought about what the definition of intimacy is. They may think it's synonymous with sex. And so let's just start there. How do you guys define intimacy, particularly in the context of marriage?

Yeah, so we would say that intimacy is a trip inside of each other and it's a sharing of what that is. It has to be of something that's going on on the inside. And you know, even the beginning when God said it's not good for man to be alone, we think that means proximity. But there's lots of people that have proximity to one another that still feel very alone, for sure. And that's, that's kind of where we were. And so it's a trip inside. And it's also knowing what our, our beliefs are, our feelings, our desires, it's being fully known. And I think that that idea of fully known really Starts addressing our biggest fear. And it was mine, you know, because of this whole time I'm living this immoral lifestyle. We don't have an intimacy. We're doing a lot of stuff together. But I'm afraid of letting her really know me, because if she does, she might not. Might not love me.

And I think it went both ways, too. I mean, in the 28 years that we had been married, I did not want him to see all the, you know, dents and scratches on me, of what life had thrown at me and my upbringing, or just the pain and the hurt from my. My singleness. So I didn't want him to see who I was inside.

So if you look at our life during this 28 years, we had a lot of activity, but I would say really not much intimacy in that. And what we started learning is that, you know, there's a verse in. I think it's 1st Samuel that says, man looks on the outward appearance and God looks at the heart. And we started praying that we would see each other and others like God sees them, and he says that we are open and laid bare to him. And so that's what we really started doing, is we started asking God to help us see what was on the inside.

Yeah, it is. We've talked about it on a number of episodes, just how intimacy is so misunderstood that really, when people think of intimacy, they think of sex primarily, which, again, would talk about your, you know, what you just said, that activity does not equal intimacy. You can be having sex all of the time, and it's great, and you are experiencing pleasure together. But that doesn't mean intimacy is actually happening.

Right, Right.

It's more of a connection. Right. I mean, we can have a connection through sports. You know, intellectually, we can have a connection.

And.

And sometimes, you know, you look that up on Google and it. And it. And they equate that to intimacy. But we see intimacy as being something so much more deeper, of knowing who we are in the inside that no one else knows. And it's really. It's opening yourself up and being bare in front of each other. And, you know, I will tell you, like, we mentioned that we're working with some singles, and what we have realizes that single people really are surprised at this message because it hasn't been talked about.

Yeah.

Not even with a premarital. Stuff. Right. You don't talk about, hey, you need to bear yourself one. You need to be so open that your spouse, who you're going on a journey with for a lifetime, will know you in the deepest part of who you are. They will know all your pains and all your, all your, all the, all the weaknesses that you have and all your strengths that they will be there walking side by side with you. And this is how God intended us to be and not this because we were so superficial. Right?

Yeah.

I mean we, we dated and came, came through the whole religious thing of, you know, saved yourself from marriage and all that stuff. Right.

Well, Priscilla saved herself. I didn't save her. I just want to be clear on that.

But the thing is that we're not really prepared to take this journey with someone else and say this is a person who you will be so open with that no one will know you like this person will.

Yeah. It really is a journey. We think it happens in three areas. It's a spirit, a soul and a body experience. And I understood body. I understood a little bit of soul, the mind, the will and the emotions. I did not understand the spiritual part of it at all. Even though we were really religious people.

Yeah.

If you would have seen us, you would have thought we were the most religious people, you know. But it was all a lot of hypocrisy and self righteousness. It really, really.

It was a mask.

It was a mask and it did not produce the intimacy.

Yes.

With us or with other people.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that you've connected our lack of intimacy to that idea of fear that what keeps us from being more intimate in our marriage relationship is often fear. Fear of rejection, fear of being known, fear of embarrassment, fear, you know, all these different fears. And why I think that's important is because if we can identify that one of the reasons I'm not experiencing intimacy in my marriage is because of fear, then like in any area of life, we don't want fear to drive us. And we think often of we need to face our fear and with God and others walk into those areas because if we just turn away from the fear, it's actually running our life in the background. And so I think for many people that may be a starting point of just some self awareness and maybe with trusted friends to say the reason I'm not more open, the reason I don't bear my soul with my spouse, is because I'm afraid. I have a lot of fear around what that will do or feel like. And then asking for others to help you process that fear so that you can begin to lean into intimacy.

Yeah. Nick, it's interesting. In our journey, you know, we had a disclosure point like many guys do that are involved in this. But that was not the most fearful part of the journey. I mean, it was fearful. It was terrible. Right. But walking back to things that had happened earlier in my life, even getting back to. As a childhood, we always talk about it as our take it to the grave list. I had three things on my take it at the grave, less which. And to tell her about that stuff, I couldn't even hardly talk. And so we got to a place where the Lord convinced me that I really wanted to be fully known by Priscilla. I was going to have to tell her, and so I couldn't hardly talk. Do you remember that, Priscilla?

That's right. He was just like, his lips were quivering and he just wanted to get something else, but he. He just couldn't, you know? And, you know, and at that moment, after he told me his take it to the grave list, it was, you know, the Holy Spirit just said, rosalie, you need to tell him yours. You know, don't. Don't let this moment pass without you saying, I've had. I have something to share, too.

Yeah.

And it was. It was amazing to see how God came in and worked in that area of our life, but also the coincidence of us having the same thing.

So she. So the three things on my take it to the grave list were the same three things on her take it.

To the grave that I didn't want to tell us.

See, what the enemy tells you in the middle of this and evaluating your shame is you are the only person that deals with us. Instead of it being common, which is what it says in First Corinthians 10:13, we believe we are weird and perverted and unusual, and if we say this, they won't love me or respect me, and it keeps it all buried.

So you guys talk about this, and I love that we're spending some time on intimacy in general, just so people have a good understanding of it. But in your resources, you really unpack that there is an order to establishing intimacy, a pattern or a rhythm or flow of creating intimacy, specifically in marriage. So this may sound like a funny way to start. We're not going to start with what the actual order is and should be. I want you to talk about what are the common mistakes in the ordering of intimacy that we often see. And this could be in our upbringing. It could be what is communicated from the platform at church. But what is the common assumption in regards to the order of intimacy in marriage?

Yeah, I mean, you know, we have this mindset, right, What Phil just mentioned of a hookah culture. You Know, and so what we've. And I think that's just the new word, but I think it's been around forever. You know, in our days it was a one night stand. Now it's a hookup culture. And but the thing is, is that we have disconnected because of this cultural narrative of that you can disconnect your body from your spirit and your emotion. That that's where we are. We're in a disconnected state that we can do things that, that we believe will not affect the other two.

Yeah. And we, we experienced this even in our dating life. I mean, Priscilla and I started good. We really did. We didn't date that long, but I knew she was a missionary's kid and we didn't kiss till we got engaged. And then we had only a 12 week engagement. So you would say what can happen in 12 weeks? Well, let me tell you a lot.

Yes.

And so, so, so the 12 weeks were full of temptation and struggle and everything else. Right. And yeah, we, we waited for intercourse till we got married, but we let our minds set on something else. So now we enter marriage thinking that we had prepared with some type of spiritual foundation and we completely reversed it in 12 weeks. So we enter marriage into a situation where our intimacy now is based on our feelings, our lust, our pain, passions, our desires. And as you know, that stuff will last about 12 or 18 months. And then you've got something else you've got to deal with. You got, you got real life. And I think that happens to many, many, many couples.

Yeah. I've heard a pastor say that God designed our sexual intimacy or our sexual union to be like the dessert at the end of the meal. But now we're treating it like the appetizer. And it's no wonder we can't get the main course right because we've got it out of order. And that's what I hear you describing is we so prioritize that like the point of getting married is that now we can have sex. And that's kind of what married couples do. That's the main difference between a married couple and an unmarried couple. So we can get so focused on that that we miss the depth of relationship that God is really inviting us to experience. And what I expect we're going to get to in a minute, kind of the right ordering of intimacy.

Yeah, yeah. We're putting a lot of weight on the sexual part and not on anything else. And the thing that's going to get us through life is not the sexual. Yeah, it's the spiritual and the emotional.

Well. And it leaves a lot of couples feeling kind of disillusioned or even deceived. Like, you know, I saved myself for marriage. Then we had sex, and it's not that great. It's. Or it's not feeling good, or it's not what I thought it would be. And then they wonder, did I. Did I marry the right person, or is there something wrong with me? And all these questions because we've so. We've so prioritized sex that if it's not working, then we think the marriage isn't working versus getting things in right perspective can be a real difference maker.

Totally. And I was just sharing this. Our executive team went on a trip together recently, and I was talking about this. We had a dinner, and someone asked the question, like, what has parenting taught you about life and your relationship with the Lord? And one of the things that came to mind was that recently my wife has told me that the way that I treat my kids, especially when she's around, impacts our intimacy. And I would think that it'd actually be the opposite. Like, how we interact is like a starting place of our intimacy, and then it plays out from there. But what I've been understanding is that there are these other things outside of just my relationship with my wife that impact the intimacy that her and I can have. And so to put it in the context of our conversation, I am in some way misordering the flow of intimacy. Then I'm assuming that it starts with just my relationship with my wife when it's like, well, no, that's actually not true. Because if. Let's just say to Nick's point, that if sex is the dessert, well, the appetizer may actually be how I interact with my family on any given day or that week leading up to maybe a time we were going to initiate sex together. And so for me, it has frustratingly created reality in my life where this is something I have to address and I have to think through this. So you guys didn't know, but this episode I've really been looking forward to because I'm hoping that you minister to me today.

Well, it's a great example, and I think part of my own trip into that, Trevor, is me thinking the same thing you were thinking, that if I can just make this good between Priscilla and me, then there's sex at the end of the day. Right. But I think what I've started to understand now is a lot more affects her and in living with her in an understanding way. First Peter. Three, seven, I've had to learn that it's other stuff. It's her whole day and I might not be involved in it at all. But it's other things that are impacting her, that have caused her anxiety or whatever it is. All that stuff will play out in her sexually. Us guys can compartmentalize all this stuff, right? But our wives are much more intricate in that. And I never understood that very well.

Well, let's help Trevor out here a little bit and talk about the right ordering of intimacy. What does that look like? And could you kind of take some time to define each type of intimacy as you're referring to it?

Sure, sure. So we would see it as spirit, soul and body, and in that order. And if you remember in the beginning. So this is really. Everybody always goes back to Genesis and talks about this stuff, right? But after Adam and Eve were created, he says, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Right? And then it go. The next verses say, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. And that's a very familiar verse. Right. But we have to go back and say, for what reason? And if so, like, if we asked a young couple today, why are you going to leave your parents and marry your wife? They would say, well, she's good looking and we have fun together and stuff like that. But at this point, Adam and Eve have no emotional relationship and they have really no sexual relationship. And God is saying for this reason. What reason is it is because at the very beginning, I think Adam and Eve saw that the hand of God had put them where they were and that they were established together and that was their unification. And he established that the spiritual intimacy, the spiritual understanding of that we were created by God for this purpose is what is, what can be the ultimate foundation of the marriage. And so then we find later he says they were naked and unashamed. And that's kind of an emotional type of statement because shame is felt in your emotions. So that's kind of a picture of the emotional intimacy. Then we have later there was a sexual intimacy. And we believe that that's the way that God established it at the beginning. And that's the way it should, should occur between husbands and wives. But I will tell you, I think it's funny, I heard a young pastor tell me this. I think 30 or 35 years ago, I don't even think I was married. I think I was single. And he made a statement and said he did not believe that hardly any couples were spiritually Intimate with one another. And I didn't really understand what that meant at the time, but now I do. And I think what it is is that when we talk about spiritual intimacy, most people want to take that and translate that to spiritual activities like going to church, praying together, and reading your Bible. But we did a bunch of those stuff.

Yeah, we did that in the 28. And. And. But the thing is, is that we. We also see that this is a journey that we have with one another. And, you know, the question that God asked in the garden and he asked in other places in scripture is, where are you? You know, are we asking each other that question? Where are you?

Where's your heart?

Where's your heart? Where are you speak. Where are you spiritually? Where. What is God showing you? Where are the things that God is pressing on your heart that says, you know, he's telling me that I, I got a problem with this. You know, one of our problems that we deal with together and that we always talk about is. And that's pride. Okay. Which we don't like to talk about pride. You know, it's like, let's not talk about.

Right.

But we have a problem with pride and, you know, our pride. And we, we look at pride like a stick, right? You have the person who knows it all.

That was. That was me.

That was him. And then the person who just wants to be in the background and just kind of don't notice me, that was me. Right? So we both have issues with pride, and we both have to go into the middle of this stick and say, where is it that God wants me to be? Because I. It's not good for me to be a worm, and it's not good for him to be a. Know it all.

But.

So this, these are the questions that we ask each other. It's like, what is. What is God showing you? What is he speaking to you about? And then we're very forthcoming in our. In. In those areas.

So the spiritual intimacy is one that's hard for people to get their arms around without reducing it to activity. And so we describe it like this. It's a journey towards intimacy with God that we are going to share with each other. Yeah. And. And no, even like people say, are you intimate? I don't think. See, the. When you make it an absolute like that, that means you are fully known. I don't think anybody is, because we don't even hardly know ourselves.

And we change and we change.

So. So what we've got is we have a journey together towards intimacy. This idea of what, where is God taking me? Where am I? Where am I going? Where have I been? Where am I and where am I going? You know, those questions. And we share that together. And now we've started to develop some spiritual intimacy.

Yeah, I love that, too, because there's a vulnerability at each level. You know, I think you talked about Adam and Eve. They were naked and unashamed. There was also a physical vulnerability. There was nothing. Keeping who I am secret or in the dark from you. You see all. But I think that's the same thing emotionally. And what you're talking about, too, is spiritually, that there is this openness, there is this availability that you can see into me. And that's one of the ways that we say it here at Pure Desire. Our friend Rodney Wright says it all the time. Intimacy is into me, you see, and it's that idea of just openness, vulnerability. You can see everything.

And so if you take that to the spiritual realm, right, it's kind of like, let me see into you, you know, the working of God in you.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and so it includes, like, reading your Bible together and praying. But see, those. Those things are not the object. Those things are a means for the intimacy. Because, see, you can. You can read your Bible together and still not be intimate, which is where we were.

Well, I wasn't even reading the Bible.

But I was reading some.

Yeah, Well, I really appreciate that you unpacked that, because I think a lot of couples do struggle with that concept of spiritual intimacy. In particular, it's like, well, I don't really know what that is. And I've heard people say I should pray with my spouse every day. And for many of us, that's a real challenge. You start having kids and careers and busy schedules and finding that time to pray together can be very hit or miss. And I think then there can be a lot of shame of, like, well, we're not spiritually intimate because we're not. We're not doing the activities together. But really, it is that sense of, am I growing in Christ and looking for ways to encourage my spouse out of that and fuel their growth in Christ? And are we just continually seeing ways that we put Christ at the center of our marriage? And I know one of the ways for me that I have to come back to that and that I would define a spiritual intimacy are like, the ways when I choose to serve my spouse out of love for Christ, because I'm not doing it for her. I'm not doing it to get brownie points or any of that. But sometimes I do, and sometimes those are my motives. But if I just can come back to that place, like Christ, help me to love my wife like you do, like you love the church. That's what we're called to in Ephesians 5. I think that's a real sense of spiritual intimacy. When I am. I am trying to grow towards my spouse in the strength of Christ doing the things he calls me to do. Like, there's something there that goes beyond just emotional connection or physical connection. It's like there is a Christ empowerment in our relationship that I am leaning into that as a part of what's making us close. And that doesn't mean that every moment, even your spouse is aware of it or receptive of it, but that those moments matter a lot. And then like you say, the physical, not the. The practical things like reading your Bible together, praying together, going to church together, those are good. You know, we don't want anyone to hear, don't do that.

Right.

Those are good. But if that's all we're relying on, as you've brought up so well, we can really miss the heart of what a spiritual intimacy is all about.

Yes. Yeah. Well, well said, Nick. That is so much. Right.

So let's say a couple is listening to this and they're like, oh, yeah, we totally get this order wrong. What does it look like to address that and the word reset? Like, how do you reset intimacy in your marriage? And what tools do you guys recommend that people can implement in their marriage to help create the right order?

Well, you know, I think you have to. Like, in our marriage, we had to evaluate what. What our marriage looked like. Right. In the 28. And we both were determined that we did not want this kind of marriage anymore because it was very mediocre and we had things go. I mean, like we said before, it looked like we had everything put together, but we didn't really, inside of. In our hearts, we did not have it all together. And I think that you have to come. You have to come back and you have to look at what has happened in the past, and this is not the direction I want to go anymore. And so there, there has to be a switch that you do that you have determined in your heart this is not how it's going to be.

Yeah, I think when we went back and looked at that, you know, the, the coming claim event, which so many people focus on and everything, it was much more than just coming clean with what I had done. I mean, it really has to go back to an unpacking of who I've been and what drove it, what were the roots. If I just focus on behaviors, it's not really going to get underneath it. So we had to go back and start resetting some of this stuff. And to reset, that means you got to take some of the idols off the table that have been on the table. And so for me, I mean, yes, sex was one of them, but there was more than that as well. And I. My work situation was out of control. It was all about me. It was where I got a lot of my pride and issues with my ego and everything else, but it was also my reputation. And that was probably one of the biggest things, you know, that. That was really fueling me. So you got to pull these idols off the table. I mean, we'll have a lot. Sometimes a couple will come to us, and the woman will say, you know, he's not watching porn or masturbating anymore, but he's still a jerk, you know, and so you've got to get these other things addressed to improve your marriage. Just stopping offensive behaviors won't necessarily make the marriage any better. You've got to drill down into the deeper areas. And so for us, I had to go back and start taking some of this stuff off the table. And I did. I switched positions at work. I eventually left that firm and just reset all those different things that were out there all in response to what we were doing here.

Yeah. I mean, and one of the other things that we took off the table was sex, because in the. When we were going through recovery, that was the last thing I wanted.

So she says, we took it off the table. Priscilla took it off the table, rightfully.

So that boundary is yours to set. Yes.

So, you know, so we took. We took sex off the table because that was probably the area that I carried a lot of misunderstanding from my. From my growing up years. You know, my experience wasn't right. My beliefs weren't. Weren't correct in that. And so we took that off the table because that was an area that God had to work in both of our lives. And. And, you know, the thing is, is that we depend so much on sex. Right. Like we said that before, but if we take that off the table, what do you have left? You know, you don't. All you have is emotional and spiritual. And so that was where we went to. We said, let. Let's go back to this and look at where we are emotionally and what is it that God wants to do in Our life spiritually together.

Yeah. I think that's such a great reminder of why many couples in a season of disclosure and repair and regrowth of the relationship will take sex off the table. There is an element of safety. And when do both spouses feel safe to re engage and feel like they can trust what the other person is thinking about and doing? But I think that other element of it gives you an opportunity to lean into parts of your relationship that were really to lean into parts of your relationship that are maybe really underdeveloped. Because for many of us, and I would include myself in this, we so prioritized the sexual connection and even tracking, like, did it happen once this week or twice? Or could we maybe get to three times? And how do I make that happen? And it was all about the sex, but kind of missing. Am I really connecting with my wife's heart? Am I connecting with her soul and her spirit? Do I care about what's going on in that part of her life? And if all our energy is driven towards the physical moment of connection, then we've missed a richness that I know we found in our marriage as well, because it's like, okay, we need to deprioritize this so that we can really begin to explore some other areas that have kind of just gone unaddressed in our relationship. And we found just what you're explaining, that there was so much more there in terms of richness and fun and depth of relationship. It was like, wow, we didn't know what we were missing until we started to have some of these other areas. Really. And I appreciate you said earlier, too, that. Not that. Okay, now we've all got it perfect now. It's all figured out. No, we're still learning, we're still growing. But I know those areas are a lot further along now than they were when our disclosure took place. So. Yeah, I just. I hear and have experienced the truth that you guys are talking about.

Yeah, yeah. We always say we haven't arrived, but praise the Lord, we aren't where we were, you know, And. And I think the arrival will be maybe in heaven. I don't know. You know, it. But here, it's a journey.

If you guys arrive before you get to glory, write a book, sell a ton of them, because everyone's gonna know, need to know how to arrive. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, I. I think. I think we. We want so much to have everything now. Right. Because we're instantaneous. Everything has to be now. And. And this is a journey. And it is time. It takes so much time and involvement that you just see, you know, little by little, we are changing together. And it's not. Oh, yeah, we're there. And I think people want it to be instantaneous. And it's not. It's a journey like our journey with God. It's a journey with each other.

Yeah. Well. And the only time we've ever really arrived is on our GPS when it tells us you've arrived. But other than that, we're on a journey. We're in process. So tell us a little bit about what that might look like for a couple that is trying to analyze. Are we growing in our intimacy in all these areas? What might be some of the fruit of true intimacy growing in someone's life? And do you have any tools that you would recommend for helping couples work on that in their marriages?

Sure. Yeah. I tell you, one of the things that we've seen really change between the two of us is our ability to share temptations together. And that's a tough one for people that have offended one another, especially with betrayal or sexual issues. Right. But early on, I realized that if I was going to get in front of a lot of these temptations and issues, I was going to have to engage Priscilla. We engage one another. We call our each other battle partners now. And so if I'm in a place of temptation, early on, we used to have a code. So I would send her a text message, and it was the little praying hands emoji. And that was if I was having a thought or a temptation or a struggle. And so, like, early on, if I was riding around town, I rode past a massage parlor. It might bring back a past memory. And I would send her a quick praying hands emoji, and she would send me back, like, little googly eyes, I love you. I'm praying for you. And I'd forget about it. I really would. I'd get home and I would ask.

Him, what was the praying hands about? And he would share with me what happened.

Yeah. And. And we still walk through it in this level. I mean, just the other day, we had gone to a little Brazilian grocery store that Priscilla wanted. Wanted to go to and hadn't been there before. We pulled into the Plaza in Park, and I looked on the right, and there was a massage parlor that I had been to years ago, and I got triggered. I turned off the car, and she started to get out. And I said, listen, I need to talk to you right now because I'm getting triggered. And she said, by what? And I said, that massage parlor right there, I've been into that and it's just pulling up memories that I don't want to have in my head.

And I said, hey, well, you know what, I'm ready to go in there and tell them about Jesus. Do you want to go with me?

And I said, no, I don't want to go under any circumstances. But, but see, what that did is it put us on a place where we can now come to the most intimate part of ourselves, which is our desires. Yeah, our desires and our temptations, you know, and stuff like this and things that we don't want to have. And so we are able to operate at a level like that. And this happens in multiple places for us. You know, even going into the gym where you running into somebody that a trigger for you or something like that.

Yeah, I mean, we just, we just talk almost every time we leave the gym. We say, so did it, did you get triggered?

Yeah, but most of the time is no, but see, we think this is the essence of what God said. It's not good for man to be alone. I am no longer alone in my thoughts and temptations, you know, and yeah, I could go call a buddy and tell a buddy, but a buddy isn't around me as much. And frankly, my buddies are not going to be nearly as offended as Priscilla is going to be. And so for me to be able to walk into this relationship with Priscilla and pull her in that tight and trust her with that, with my, with my emotions in the middle of that has been an amazing experience.

You know, another thing that we have done too, and that is with our trauma of our past, right. We, we kind of knew, kind of like by fact, this happened to me. I just want you to know I said that three years into our marriage, hey, this happened just for you to know. And that's all he knew. Right. And so for 28 years I'm living with this stuff and not wanting to come forth with it.

Right.

And so after we, after he came clean, after I came clean and stuff, we, you know, it's. I think it was like four years ago I walked through the trauma of my past and I shared all the details of what happened and who it was, where I was, everything of what happened. And I will tell you, it is the first time that I ever shared that much about something that was traumatic to me.

Yeah.

But you know, we both cried and we grieved for what was lost as a six year old.

Yeah.

And I had never done that before. Nobody knew Right. And. And for him to come alongside me and cry and pray for me. Ah, that was amazing. Because that was a no go before, you know, but feeling safe and being vulnerable to share that, that is what we're, that's what we're talking about is having that place of intimacy that you can share anything with that person.

Well, it.

And still know that they love you and they're not going to reject you.

Yes. Well, it, it allows us to walk out of our shame because our shame tells us you are not worthy to reflect the image of God. And if you believe that on the inside, it is really, really hard to move forward in your relationship.

One of the things I hear as you guys are sharing and really this entire response to this question is, and I want to point this out, that, but being honest, being vulnerable, revealing weaknesses that we have, like cause saying I used to be in that massage parlor, that can be viewed as like a weakness or a knock against you. And there is a ton of risk and really courage is required in order to be fully transparent, to say, hey, look, this happened when I was six years old. Because it's one of those things where when it's out and someone else knows it, you have no more control of that narrative. You have no more control of that reality. And so I think what you guys are saying, and I just want people to be aware that intimacy requires risk. It requires opening up and revealing and you having no idea whether good or bad how someone's going to respond. But in order to get to intimacy, it has to have that. I'm revealing weakness. I'm revealing something that I'm afraid to show you. I'm letting you into a place that I'm nervous about letting anyone else into. And I think that it's important to just know that in order to get to intimacy, you have to walk through that.

Yeah, well said, Trevor. And we felt a lot of those emotions.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. Well, when it comes to sharing, you know, that level of our desires and temptations with one another, it occurs to me that, you know, it takes two people who are experiencing a level of health in their recovery. Because Priscilla, you had to be healthy enough to receive those praying hands emojis or to have Phil sharing with you things that were triggering him. Because there's a possibility at certain seasons in your recovery it might have been equally triggering for you. And all the anger's back and all the feelings of rejection and what was wrong with me. And so I just wanted to say that because I think for some couples, maybe when they heard you guys talking about it, they felt like, wow, we're not there. And I want to just say, that's okay if you're not there yet. If you don't want to hear about their temptations or desires, that's. That's perfectly normal. And there are many, you know, people in recovery that for a season, and sometimes the season can be a long time. Those desires and temptations need to be shared in the group, in their seven pillars group, or their unraveled group, with a group of trusted men or a group of trusted women that, that's the place to go to that level. Because the person you're married to is the one you've wounded so deeply. And so they may not be ready to receive that. And if, again, if that's where your relationship is at, don't shame yourself for not being like Phil and Priscilla yet. Just realize, oh, there's still some layers of healing that we're working through in that area. But that also doesn't mean you have to wait to experience some of this intimacy until that level comes. Because right now what you could be focusing on, like, as I think back to that first year of recovery for my wife and I, for me, it was a lot about just learning to be real about my emotions, that when I was feeling like a failure at work, my go to is like, well, I just need to act like I'm fine and everything's good, but to go home and tell my wife, I feel like I'm failing. I feel like a bad pastor. I feel like I've let my staff down. Whatever I was feeling like, that's not something I had ever been taught to do, had been modeled for me or that I wanted to do because like you said, Trevor, it felt like weakness. And so for us, like using a tool like the faster scale for that emotional awareness and check in, I know other couples use things like Thanos. Just a tool that I could come and say, I'm struggling with a feeling of worthlessness, failure, rejection, how a friend treated me. That was a new level of intimacy in our marriage. And so I wanted to say to listeners, if you're not ready to maybe share the temptation desires like Phil and Priscilla just talked about do look for other areas where you can start to open doors of your life that really you haven't because you've been wearing a mask, because you've been protective, because you've just felt like, well, I've got to act strong and no one needs to, to know that I'm having doubts or Worries or fears. Because when you and your spouse start to connect, and this is maybe more on the emotional level, like when you're connecting about the doubts and fears you have as a parent, as someone in your career, as a friend, that really becomes a connection point with your spouse that they can encourage and pray and support. And we just found such tremendous growth there as a couple that then could eventually lead you into the growth where you might be at a place where you could share. Hey, I'm feeling tempted today. And not have your spouse back. Oh, my God. You know, in you of front, flying off the handle over it.

And I'm thinking, too, just in kind of in line with our conversation, that that would make sense that if you're not ready to establish sexual intimacy also, because I think what I'm hearing is that, you know, Phil, you being able to say, hey, I'm triggered right now sexually, and Priscilla, to you then be able to receive that there is a level of sexual intimacy and healing that you guys have established already that you're basing that off of, where maybe as you're talking about, you know, and you guys have already mentioned, maybe it is more spiritual intimacy to start or emotional or that soul intimacy that you guys are talking about, that if you're early on in recovery, focus on those two areas, knowing that eventually you will get to the sexual arena and intimacy can then be reset or rebuilt there.

Well, I just want to say, Nick, that that is like seven years out. Okay. But I will tell you that initially there were quite a few meltdowns.

All right.

With all of this, especially when I got triggered and I thought things were happening, and they get all twisted in my head. I just want you to know it hasn't always been like that. There have been quite a few times that I felt like grabbing him by the neck and shaking.

Yeah. And that's a learning process. I think, for all of us that if you're the spouse that's been betrayed or experienced those feelings of discovery from what your spouse has done, and you think you're ready, but then they share something, and it spins you out. Like, that's okay to share that. Say, like, you know what? I'm not as ready as I thought. And let's make an adjustment because that just leans back into what you guys already said. This is a journey. We're in process together, and you're not gonna get it perfectly every time there. It's two steps forward, one step back. And if you're in a season where it feels like one step back and you don't wanna hear some things and say, tell that to your group. Like, okay, that's just part of the experience of learning together how to be intimate, how to be real. And I think God uses all those moments.

Yeah, I think you're right. And even in the times where we maybe got ahead of ourselves and. Or I got ahead of myself. Right. God still used that because I was able to see what my sin was doing to her based on her visceral reaction. And so many women will be reserved in this. And the guys are going like, well, it doesn't seem like it really affected her very much. I guess it's not that bad. And I will tell you after my disclosure, and I have no doubt on what my sin did to her. She made it abundantly clear. And that's a good picture in my mind of what my sin has done to my wife and makes me steer clear of it.

Yeah. Amen. Well, amen to that.

Okay, guys, this has been awesome. I really do think this is a super great conversation. And I think anyone who's listening will absolutely start to evaluate what. Where they are in each of these arenas of intimacy and where to reorder that. But you guys have, as you've mentioned, a ministry resources, a podcast. How can people keep up with you, keep in touch with you, go follow you, all of that?

Sure. Well, they can go to our website@savagemarriageministries.com and join our savage community. And we do put out podcasts periodically. We're actually releasing our book right now on our podcast on audio, chapter by chapter.

Nice.

Some people said that is a ridiculous thing to do. Phil, you. Aren't you trying to sell these books? Well, we're trying to really create a message for people, and we realize some people don't buy books and they listen. So. Yeah, I think we've got eight. Eight chapters out there right now. Yeah, something like that. On our podcast.

Go listen. Go check it out.

Yeah, seriously great stuff. And I would just say, as someone who listens to audiobooks, you can't underline in an audiobook, which is why you buy the physical copy. But. So, yeah, we'll make sure that we have all that in the show notes so that you can keep up with Phil and Priscilla. Guys, thank you so much for your marriage ministry, what you guys are doing through your resources and for being with us today. Thank you.

Well, thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us on. Great discussion with you guys.

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