345 - In Sickness & In Health

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello there. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 345 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

First comes love, then comes marriage. Then comes the baby in the baby carriage.

I've never heard that before. It made me heard that. No, it makes me think, like, here's the church, here's the steeple, open the door, see all the people like those kind of things, but I know I've never heard that before.

It is. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just a children's rhyme, and I think it was meant to be done. Like, when you're skipping rope, it kind of has that rhythm.

Yeah, totally.

The kind of thing little girls would say. I remember in the playground, like, that would be what they would be jumping rope to. So maybe I'm just old enough that we did those kind of things.

And when you were a kid, hey.

Man, it was beyond your generation.

I don't know.

Let's just remind people you're only 10 years older than I am. So it's not like a lot. But also you said it, not me. So a lot happened in those 10 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Okay. So today we had Brent and Nicole brining on with us, and Brent is one of our clinicians. And Brent and Nicole really have been huge advocates of pure desire on the east coast in D.C. and then now in Florida. And, man, we got to hear some. Some pretty challenging stuff that they went through in their story, specifically around just Nicole's physical health. And they brought this topic to us today, and the title really is just talking about how to be healthy in sickness and in health in your marriage.

Yeah. You know, I think there are a lot of things in our culture, kids, rhymes, songs, movies, stories that does kind of present to us this. Fall in love, get married, have 2.5 kids, live in a big house, retire and live happily ever after. And, yeah, there'll be a few bumps along the way, but, man, marriage is the thing. And we get married and we make those vows in sickness and in health and for better, for worse. And I think for any one of us that stood at the altar, we hope we know what that means and we mean it. But until we get there, we don't realize, like, what does sickness and for worse and what are some of those seasons going to look like? And those are really times that can either fracture marriages for good or can Bring them back together in a deeper way than ever before. And I think that's what was great about today's conversation, is we got to hear Brent and Nicole kind of process, really two seasons of where the for better or worse, for sickness or in sickness and health, was challenged to say, what will this look like? To honor our vows? And obviously, you know, it took both of them with a willingness to do that. And I know some of our listeners have gone through very painful situations where they were willing, but the other one wasn't. And some of this they may feel like, man, I wish my spouse had that attitude. And we're really sorry for those situations. But for many others, and even for those that have at some point had a marriage and they end up married again, I think there's a lot here about what do we do in seasons when things aren't going the way we planned, and it's not all, you know, love and bluebirds on our shoulders, but it's the hard seasons. And sometimes, medically, as we talked about today, like, what does it take to stay connected as a couple and to keep our physical relationship in view and not just give up on physical connection as a couple? And so I'll tell listeners this is really honest, some really raw conversation by the end about physical intimacy and what does that look like? But I think it's the kind of thing that we need to hear. So if you're a younger listener, too many of us probably think Brent said in the episode, like, oh, well, not us. You know, if you're in your 20s or 30s, you don't know what the future holds. And I think there is something really valuable to starting to think through. Well, what if my spouse got cancer? What if my spouse became impotent or it was unable to have sex? What would we do? What would that look like? And so for some of us, this might be a podcast that helps us prepare, helps us develop a mindset of commitment and fidelity, where for others, maybe you're in the midst of it or you're on the other side of what happened. I just hope you'll get a lot of encouragement and ideas of how you could address whatever's going on in your relationship and that you can invite God's help and his grace into your situation.

Yeah. And one of the words they really just kept talking about was just having hope. And I think that they are a testament to that and their story. And this is absolutely a unique conversation, I think, not in the sense that this is only something they've gone through, but I don't think I've ever had a conversation like this one before. So we're sure that you're going to get a lot out of it, and so let's get into it here. Here's our time with Brent and Nicole, brining on in sickness and in health. Brent and Nicole, really excited to have you guys on the podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having us.

Yep. Happy to be here.

Our time together is really, from what I've heard from you guys, we'll cover definitely part of your story, for sure. It's actually an idea that Brent, you talked to me about originally, how to stay committed and connected, specifically in the area of sex and the idea of in sickness and in health. And there are a number of different ways our sexual relationship and marriage can be impacted. So we're going to look at a couple of those ways and talk through how couples can navigate those in healthy ways. And what's actually cool is there have been some similar things in my marriage and my relationship with my wife. And so this is actually a topic that I think will help a lot of people and I'm personally excited about. So before we kind of get into that topic, though, I know some of our Pure Desire community are familiar with you. Brent, you've been on a podcast recently. You were an rga. You're now a clinician on staff. And, you know, you guys have been doing a lot of work on the east coast. And Nicole, you might be a new face for some. So maybe, Nicole, if you could give us a breakdown, like, who are you guys? Tell us about yourselves, your marriage, your ministry, all that.

So about us. We were married in 1997. We have one son who was born in 2002. I'd say, like most couples, you know, we hit some speed bumps early on in our marriage as we adjusted to being married. But in general, things were pretty good. I can't actually recall just kind of getting into, you know, the betrayal side of stuff. When I discovered Brent was viewing pornography, kind of explained it away initially because my dad had had topless calendars. You know, my parents had cable watch rated our movies. So it's kind of the normalized thing in my, in my growing up years. But eventually, you know, the behaviors became such that it really affected how Brent and I would interact with each other. And of course, being a Navy spouse adds an. An additional layer to that because frequent moves, it's easy to feel kind of lonely. It takes time to build relationships. Most of the time, his job had him working really long Hours, and he was exhausted. At the end of the day, I wanted just to connect. And especially after having our son, I just wanted adult conversation. But a lot of times he just didn't have the capacity to do that because he was so exhausted. And then, of course, you know, the, the, you know, addictive type behaviors, the unwanted sexual behaviors, compounded that. For me, though, what I realized, kind of going eventually, was that when he would react in anger towards me about something, usually it was about sex. You know, for me, anger meant danger because in my growing up years, when my parents got angry, it was like you didn't kind of want to be around them. They. Yeah, you know, they weren't violent, but they were a little scary. And my dad was a very tall man, so when he got mad, she just kind of wanted to be in the other room.

Yeah, her dad's 6 foot 11.

Yeah, he was, he was a big guy. So just. Just by nature of that, he was intimidating. So.

Wow.

Yeah. So, you know, when, when Brent would react over something in anger, you know, my go to mechanism was just to want to run away and retreat, which of course just compounded his feelings of being abandoned or being helped me with the word here, isolated from me not having that connection. So eventually, you know, years, 15 years into our marriage, repeated betrayals, repeated discoveries or disclosures, nothing really changing, you know, lots of promises, but no real action. I had actually grown very cold towards him. I really didn't have any emotion left, no connection. In fact, I was, I had seriously considered divorce once our son graduated. I was kind of just sticking around to get our son through high school because I was a child of divorce myself, didn't want him to be that. So going to stick around until he was out of the house and considerate.

So that was kind of the time when, when I hit my rock bottom and I was. I was sensing the isolation from Nicole and came from Joshua and was just really disgusted with myself. My acting out behavior, but not knowing where to turn to get help. And that's when I was introduced to pure desire. And Dr. Ted and I shared that a little bit on the last podcast. And that was just really the changing point for me to jump into health and start my first group and start making those positive steps toward recovery. But it took quite a while. Just me going through that process, know, didn't necessarily make me an intimate person. You know, it stopped the behaviors, but the intimacy in the relationship took a while before that was restored. And even, you know, some of the healing on Nicole's side of the ledger that she needed to go through in that regard.

Yeah, I put off my own healing for years. I kind of had that mentality that I think a lot of betrayed spouses do, at least initially, that it was his problem, not mine. So it was about three years after he started his own recovery journey that I did my first betrayal and beyond group. And. And then I went on from there to lead a group or co. Lead a group and then in 2019 and lead a group in 2022. And what I found is by going through that workbook and those groups that I tapped into things that. That were in me that didn't make things better in the relationship. You know, certainly it is true that everything, you know, that Brent's problem were his problems. I didn't cause those. But, you know, I'd already like, mentioned my response to anger. That didn't really help us at all. So just learning some of that about myself, I was able to do some healing of my own. And. And then in 2017, Brent just. Brent told me he had signed us up for counseling. And I was like, really? You didn't talk to me? Thanks, but. And that was with Ted.

Here we go.

Yeah, exactly. That's kind of. I was like, really? You? No. What? But it was with Ted and Diane Roberts, and my gosh, what a blessed time that was and so much healing in that time. I actually was really thankful that he sort of held my feet to the fire and said, we're doing this well.

And then. And just something important to note about the counseling process is I didn't realize what I needed. I. I had made a decision at that point that I wanted to pursue becoming a counselor myself and joining the Pure Desire team and taking those first initial steps towards that. So I thought I was entering counseling just to glean off of Ted Roberts, but obviously God had a much bigger design for that. And there's still broken areas definitely in my life around anger and intimacy that really needed to be healed up. And that was kind of the acceleration step, I think, to the whole process of restoring the intimacy in our relationship.

Yeah.

So in your guys story, you know, we're here to unpack the. Just the impact on our physical relationship as a couple of when brokenness comes in, but also, you know, the physical side of. As we age, there are physical challenges we face. But first, let's kind of lean into the reality that when an addiction surfaces or when someone's, you know, problematic struggle with unwanted behavior comes to light and there's betrayal, that impacts the sexual relationship a couple can have. And so what are some of the ways that our sex changes or the way that we relate to one another sexually changes after a disclosure or when there's a pattern of betrayal happening in the marriage?

Yeah, I think it's important to distinguish between a full disclosure and staggered disclosure. And staggered disclosure is what most people experience of where there's bits and snippets of discovery and the confession, but not confessing the whole thing or the guy acting out and then feeling so much shame over that that then he has to tell his wife, promises he'll never do it again. And that can be very traumatic for the spouse and make her feel very unsafe. And so that translates into the sexual relationship because really the woman's ability to be present in that, which is a very vulnerable, is probably the most vulnerable will ever be, is in sexual union, is predicated on her safety. And if she's not feeling safe about the relationship because he's constantly betraying her with these, you know, what he may deem small indiscretions with looking at pornography or masturbation of not turning to her for intimacy, then that's definitely going to cascade and affect her ability to be present in the bedroom. And then he's going to sense that too and maybe feel rejected in those moments because she's not fully engaged. But the reason why she's not fully engaged is because he is, hasn't been fully engaged outside the bedroom with her. And a lot of these acting out behaviors are really centered around isolating and not being emotionally present. And you know, Dr. Tess says all the time, this is not about sex, this is about intimacy. This is an intimacy disorder. And what we turn to for artificial intimacy and comfort when really we need to be turning towards our spouse and other healthy relationships.

I mean, for me, I think the, the repeated disclosures, partial disclosure, staggered disclosures really affected me a lot in terms of my self esteem and self image. And those weren't new. Those, those, those weren't caused by Brent. They had pre existed him. I'd always struggled with kind of like my body shape and everything, but it definitely made it worse. You know, I mean, I can't compete with these airbrush perfect people that he was looking at on the screen. So yeah, so that really, that really aggravated my issues with body image and self image early on though. I think again, like I said, it was somewhat normalized in my family. And so it'd be like, well, okay, I forgive you. Because that's what you're supposed to say when people Say they're sorry. And then we'd kind of just move on like nothing had happened, which didn't really help. And so, you know, again, as this progressed, we just lost all emotional intimacy. I kind of got to the point where I was like, yeah, you're going to say you're sorry, Fine, come say you're sorry. It's going to be, you know, wash, rinse, repeat. It's going to be the same thing over and over again because I'm not really seeing anything changing. I know a lot of couples actually stop having sex after there's a discovery or disclosure. We were a little different that way. We didn't stop. Part of that was again, I think, because I just felt like I had this obligation, if you will, to still show up even though it was, you know, emotionally painful every time, but generally.

Also concerned that if you didn't show up, that that would heighten my triggers.

Yeah, yeah. So, yes, there was that and thank you for bringing that up. But generally whenever we were in, in the bedroom together, I was physically present, but I definitely was not emotionally present and sometimes very dissociated from it. Just kind of off in my own mind, just waiting for everything to be done.

Yeah, yeah. And so I did full disclosure twice. The first time wasn't good enough, but I did.

Let's do it again.

Yeah, well, I did it at the end of my first group in 2014 and you know, you just get up to P7, lesson one and you do it and there's not really much, much guidance. You know, what does this look like? Or what's the right way to do it? And so that was a page and a half, hadn't written. And then going into counseling with Ted and Diane, Rodney Wright was actually speaking at a peer desire summit and he talked about how impactful the emotional impact letter was during the disclosure process for him and his ability to maintain sobriety and understanding his wife's pain. I said we never did that. So I brought it up with Dr. Ted and he took us back through that process in its entirety. And now being on the other side of that, leading couples through this, I can't speak highly enough about Peer Desire's full disclosure process of the multi step process with the addict reading the full disclosure statement, which is basically to bring everything into the light, keep nothing hidden. And then the betrayed spouse's response and the emotional impact letter. So in her response to what he has told her, but also how his behaviors have affected her in multiple domains around her feelings of safety, in her physical Being her emotional or psychological health, the family's health, the financial health, all these different domains. And then as he's hearing this, to be able to internalize that pain that he has caused for his behaviors. What I find is that is a very strong catalyst for change for him and a motivation to continue in his recovery work of not wanting to put his wife through that again. And then also maybe the first opportunity that she's ever had to be able to voice that in a environment that's safe and to show the depth of how that's affected her. And then his emotional restitution letter, which is his response to acknowledge her pain and commitment to go forward. But you know, back to your question, Nick. That is a very healing process. It's not like it's not going to solve all the intimacy issues, but it's going to lay the foundation to allow the couple to move forward at that point. I think it's a very necessary step as we look at intimacy in the bedroom, that not going through that process. I don't think you can fully restore healthy intimacy in the bedroom until you've gone through that.

So. And as this is a part of you guys story, and you know, it's good, it's good to hear more context as we get into this next question that you guys didn't necessarily stop having sex during that process. But obviously, but obviously as you guys are getting into recovery and intimacy in other arenas is being created, I'm sure sex changed to some degree. So will you just explain kind of what that process was like and how it changed as you guys were both in your own healing journey?

Yeah, I think we, we hit a kind of a height of or. Or sexual time together right in the middle of counseling as well, halfway through counseling. And I just remember that it was great. Sex was pretty amazing. It was great during that time. It was really what was happening to us in each of the sessions that we were walking through. And we went through the connected curriculum, we went through the genesis process for change. And I think it was really from my perspective. Nicole will give her perspective in a minute. Here was about the. My ability to be emotionally vulnerable. And those exercises really take you to a deep point of reflection about self and about relationship and give you an opportunity to give words to what you're feeling. That's so hard sometimes for guys that are, you know, have challenges with intimacy. And I think that really just opened up the doors because that. That vulnerability, when Nicole saw that in me, that just went when it hurt. Even if we're Talking about some hard issues or some. Some ways, I was hurt.

She.

It just made her want to draw closer to me, which just opened up the doors for the sexual intimacy.

One of the things that I think I missed most when Brent was really struggling with his unwanted sexual behaviors was just that sense of connection. It's like, I just want to know what's going on with you. I want to know what you're thinking. I want to know what your dreams are. I. Whatever the good, the bad, the ugly, I just want to know you. And I just felt like that part was missing because he was so. He pulled away so much. He isolated so much. And the only place that he really wanted to connect during the worst of it was in the bedroom. Well, that wasn't great for me. And so again, he kind of mentioned. For the emotional impact letter, I finally had a voice to say, this was horrible. Yeah, this was horrible for me and this is why. And this is all the ways that it affected me. And like for him to have a response to that, that involved emotion. I think I remember you actually cried when you read your response back to me. And it was like, oh, okay, you're. You're feeling now. I can see that you're feeling now what I was feeling. Whereas before it was like, oh, well, you're hurting. Who cares? You know, it's. It's kind of. It was kind of more self focused for him. But certainly, yeah, the emotional connection made such a difference and, and I started to feel safe enough that I could actually be present during our lovemaking and not checked out. And really, I mean, the other thing that I think markedly changed was rather than coming in and it's about, you know, my been this many days and I need release. Which was kind of his narrative. It was like, okay, what. What can I do for you? And if you. I like in the connected workbook with the. The sexual response cycle that kind of maps it out. Like, what is it? Two and a half minutes for peak sexual arousal for a man. It takes more like 15 minutes for the woman. And you know, so I think it was Gregoire, wasn't it? Gregoire In. In.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the Gregoires in their book Good Guys, guys who create sex, they. They liken it to when you, you both go out for a four course meal.

Yeah.

And he basically finishes everything in dessert. She's finished, maybe the appetizer and salad. And he's like, okay, time to go. It's like, wait, they just brought me my steak, you know, and so. Yeah, so, so for him to focus on me. It really was great, actually, for. Yeah, it really was great.

Well, that. We got a lot of that from Ted and Diane. And, you know, Ted says, make sure you take care of your wife first. I remember that.

Yeah.

And, you know, he's talking about that arousal cycle and that if you don't make sure that she's enjoying it and receiving pleasure, it's very easy just to jump into it and be done and then left her hanging there.

And.

And if you can imagine, if guys listening to this can put them inside of the other side of that equation, and you're married for 10, 20, 30 years, that's your wife's experience, is that you're constantly getting to climax and this is the best thing ever. And she. She's rarely. Because you're not taking time to focus on her. Then it's no wonder 20 years down the road that she doesn't enjoy sex and is not really that interested.

Yeah, I love the beauty that you guys are expressing of that emotional connection of being present, feeling physically and emotionally and engaging with one another. That it's not just. I mean, that's one of the lies our culture is selling us, that sex is just bodies and sex is just pleasure. And obviously our bodies are involved in the process. But if that's all it is, it's not the kind of fulfilling experience for a married couple that God intended. And you know what I see from a lot of couples, both in disclosure or discovery or during just the years prior to that, where there's kind of that staggered disclosure, is the way that they will try to use sex to fix things. Things either by having sex or by not having sex. And just as you described, they'll think, well, if we just have sex enough, if I meet his needs enough, if we're active, there will be no need to stray. And they end up very disillusioned because they realize there's not enough sex in the world that can in and of itself, fix a problem, whereas vice versa. Some people will use a lack of sex like, well, this will show them, or then, you know, I'm punishing them. And the couple grows very apart. Distance, like the. The presence of sex or the lack of it, neither one, in and of itself is very effective in creating change. It has much more to do with what's happening outside of the bedroom in just what you're describing. Because I know there are couples that have walked through recovery and they continue to have some pattern of sexual engagement along with the strides they're taking towards Connecting emotionally, learning how to share their feelings, addressing their past, taking ownership of the pain they've caused. And I know other couples that have walked through recovery and. And had a long season of abstinence while doing that same work of addressing the pain and walking through recovery. So it's not necessarily one way or the other that is better, but it's really focusing on what do we need to do. Just, just as you guys said, to be present with one another physically and emotionally, that we're all here, we're in it for one another, and that. That really produces a season of much deeper connection than anyone has had. And so I think to share with couples, is there a right way or a wrong way? After discovery, should there be sex? Shouldn't there be? That will need to be determined by your relationship, by the safety you feel in engaging in that. But what is more important is what is happening within the relationship to rebuild trust, to have an awareness of one another's emotions and all the work that you guys are describing. So I think that just aligns really well with what we see and helps maybe give people perspective on what really do I need to be focused on in recovery, that it's not the sex. What I should really focus on is the other connection pieces. And then what happens in the bedroom will be very different couple to couple.

Yep. I agree.

Yeah. That period of abstinence would highly encourage that. The couple talk to a counselor about that. And it is a period. So it's. It's not. There's a lot of utility in the clinical side of things to take an abstinence period, but there should be ground rules and goals associated with. With that. And a lot of it is about working on self for both. Both the partners in that, and then also re. Establishing safety and security, especially for the betrayed spouse. So that at the end of that, that period, then there's a reunification that can occur. But there should be a goal of reunification. I don't believe that God's design for the marital relationship was for it to be sexless. I don't think that was his plan. Now, that's been abused, obviously. Sure. With. With, you know, people manipulating First Corinthians 7 and. And feel. Feel men feeling like they deserve this or the wife owes it to them. But I don't think that's God's design for sexist marriages.

So what. What advice would you have if someone is in a pattern like you were describing, Nicole, where maybe they're just showing up physically because they feel like they're supposed to or it's. It's kind of their marital duty. They're meeting his needs. You know, that seems to be more often the case. I. Unfortunately, we don't hear many spouses say, well, I knew I just had to meet her needs, so I just had sex, even though I wasn't engaging. Unfortunately, it usually goes the other way. If that's the pattern a couple has been used to, but now they're experiencing maybe some traction and recovery, and they're looking to reintegrate a healthier view of sex. What other steps could they take to engage physically with one another in a more meaningful way?

Well, I think the biggest thing for a betrayed spouse to want to even go there is. Brent has already said it multiple times. I've said it multiple times is that feeling of safety, that feeling that this person. That I can start to trust this person again. And in order to feel that she really needs to see her husband doing that hard work of recovery. And not just, you know, it's not just about going to group. It's going to group, doing your homework, and then starting to see changes in how he relates to the family, how he relates to her, showing empathy for her and what she's gone through, you know, practicing healthy behaviors. You know, if he gets mad, does he go away and isolate with his computer again, or is he being very open and honest and. And. And coming and wanting to talk about what made him angry? You know, just whatever it was, whatever the behavior was before that was isolating and feeding into the addiction. You need to be able to see very concrete changes on the other side. The biggest thing I think that really helped us is communication. And this sounds really like, duh, you know, of course you need to communicate, right? But it's actually harder than you think because it does involve some vulnerability. And, you know, Brent and I have talked about our desires, our needs, our expectations. We've had to hash and rehash them. Sometimes it feels like we're broken records revisiting the same thing. But it's about, you know, keeping going back and talking about things, learning continuously about the other one, about the other person when we get angry. There's a saying that I've heard tossed around. I don't know who it's attributed to, but being curious, not furious, you know, so he says something in a weird.

In a.

In kind of a way that makes me go, huh? What? Why'd you say that? Rather than getting mad, puffing up and walking away, which would have been my previous behavior, is coming in and saying, okay, I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that the way you said it. Can you say it another way, or what are you really trying to say here? Yeah, so just learning those communication techniques with one another. And.

I think. And also in the Pure Desire curriculum, they talk about sincerity, ability, durability. So I think that's kind of what Nicole is referencing there. You know, on the guy's part, the woman needs to see that he's sincere about doing this. He's committing to this process. And then she needs to see that there's some ability to do that, that meaningful change is happening. Like Nicola saying, not just going through the emotions, but, you know, is his attitude is changing, is he being more vulnerable as he's showing up emotionally to his family? Here's a big one. When she says no to sex, do you get angry still, or are you able to give her grace in that and talk through that situation, or do you get resentful? And, you know, for most of us guys, the reason is passive aggressive, is we don't say it outright, but we go stalking into our little corner, our Heidi corner, and feel sorry for ourselves because, you know, it's been seven days since we had sex, and our wife doesn't love us anymore.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I think that's one of the areas that, you know, as we shifted the intimacy in the relationship and the trust segment that she saw the most was I did not react then when she says no or not now, that I responded with compassion to that and that, you know, was. Was putting her needs above my own needs in that situation.

Yeah, that was huge. That was huge. I think it's also important to actually have a really honest conversation with each other about what you enjoy sexually. There's a couple of great questionnaires, intimacy questionnaires, at the end of the connected book as well. One for the husband, one for the wife. And it goes into pretty deep detail. But I think that's so key because I know, again, having the wife find her voice. There were. There were times during our marriage when, you know, maybe we wanted to, you know, maybe Brent suggested, let's try this. And I would be like. Part of me would say, like, well, no, I really don't want to, but I wouldn't say that. I would just be in my head and I'd go along, and then I'd be like, okay, I didn't really enjoy that. And that would be a break again, another break in our relationship, because it's like, well, I wasn't entirely comfortable with that.

So a lot of that is reenactment from the pornography the guy's been watching.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So to sit down and say, be able to say with, you know, these guided questions, like, this is what I like. I really don't like this. It again, helped make the bedroom a safe place because I knew if he knows this about me and if I know that about him, then we know kind of where our boundaries are and we won't try to cross them. Yeah.

I want to just echo personally how important that was in our recovery. You know, we'd been married over 10 years when we went through pure desire counseling and realized, like, some of those conversations maybe we'd had initially, like right around the honeymoon, around the wedding, but like, in 10 years, hadn't really talked about likes, dislikes, how often, how frequent, who initiates, what things do we feel drawn to? What, what are our hopes and dreams or desires? What are the kind of things we've wanted to do with our spouse but have never brought. And just having in a non defensive. And as we've brought up at other podcasts, like, and not right before we're expecting to go have sex. So at a time where my wife and I, the kids, were somewhere else or we were out in a private place and we could just talk with no pressure, I think Michelle and I would both say we were surprised at what we thought we knew and we didn't know because we just never talked about it. And sometimes, especially in Christian environments, we're just trained, like, be a good Christian, love Jesus, and the sex part will work itself out and you never need to talk about it. But that's, that's just not a very good relationship. I mean, I think about going back to the food analogy. It'd be like if. If your spouse does all the cooking and they always serve you a meal with onions in it and you don't like onions, but in 10 years, you've never told them. Well, in a sense, like, well, who's responsible that there's still onions in the dish? If you never said, you know, I really don't enjoy onions, oh, well, let's leave those out. Let's do something different. Like. And I think Christian couples especially need to be told, it's okay to sit down and say, I like it when you touch me here. I don't like it when you touch me this way. I don't appreciate that. I really want more of this because I think there is a part of us, hopefully in a relationship that has a measure of Health in it. We want to do what's pleasing to the other person. But if we don't know, then it's kind of on both of us. One, I need to be willing to ask and find out. But if on the flip side, too, if I'm the other spouse, I need to be vulnerable enough to share those things. So I just. From personal experience, I'd say, man, that. That seems like it should have been so obvious, but it really wasn't until we got into recovery and that became a safe conversation. So I think that's putting together two things you said, Nicole, is there both has to be vulnerability to share those things, but we have to feel safe enough with our spouse that those things will be received well and respectfully and in a way that will build our relationship.

Right.

I think, you know, the Bible's very silent on a lot of this stuff. You know, you can make some inferences into Song of Solomon and some of the language that they're using and there. But I. I think a good way to look at it is all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. You know, there's definitely some taboos, like watching pornography, definitely not good.

Yeah.

Some fantasy scenarios, not good. But for the most part, all the physical touch and stu. There's really no hard and fast guidelines on that. So that it really needs to be discussed with. With a couple. What are you comfortable with, what feels good, what doesn't, and have a conversation around it.

Yeah. And I would say if you don't have access to Connected or. Or you want a different resource. Eight Dates by John and Julie Gottman is also a really good resource. Their third chapter in there is let's Get it on. And it has questions about. About sex as well that can start these conversations.

Yeah.

Okay. So this is true and unfortunate that sexual brokenness and betrayal are not the only things that can impact our sex lives and marriage. You guys had some major life events happen that impacted this arena. What happened and how did it affect the sex area of your marriage?

Okay. Well, in 2018, I went for a routine mammogram and that right in that same appointment, was told to wait, went for an ultrasound, doctors talking over me, blah, blah, blah, blah. And two biopsies later, found out I had breast cancer. So I opted for a lumpectomy followed by radiation. My tumor happened to be very deep in my breast, which meant they had to go through a lot to get to it, which meant I have a lot of scarring and lost a lot of sensation in that particular breast. That same year, at the urging of my oncologist, I had my ovaries taken out to reduce estrogen levels. And that created instant surgical menopause, which I thought I had fully investigated what that would do to me. But I was so unprepared for just the tremendous changes in my body that would happen. It was a really hard transition. Poor sleep, memory issues, increased joint pain, and of course then all the changes in my sexual response cycle in my vagina just from the lack of estrogen. Yeah. And so, you know, intercourse became much more challenging and often painful. And then, you know, they, they throw on the anti estrogen treatments for women who have had breast cancer, which for me just exacerbated everything. And then on top of that, in late 2021 I noticed some stuff spotting which was not normal because obviously I wasn't having menstrual cycles anymore. And after a biopsy found out I had uterine cancer. So in 2022 I then underwent a hysterectomy, vaginal radiation and chemotherapy. So obviously the diagnosis themselves were pretty traumatic. The associated treatments really affected me, especially in the area of, well, I wouldn't say especially, but including in the area of my sexual health. Menopause and radiation caused vaginal atrophy and scarring. The loss of my hormones with the ovary removal affected my desire. And I tell you, I had no idea how much my estrogen contributed to my physical enjoyment of sex. The little tinglies that I used to get gone and that was really hard. I really had to grieve that because all of a sudden it's like, it's kind of like if you're a person who likes to be tickled and you're being tickled and you enjoy it and you're laughing, it's like more and more and more to being tickled and really not wanting to be. And so, you know, I really had to relearn what is pleasure for me, what is, what is pleasurable touch to me. Because what worked before and what felt good before now was not fun a lot of the times and did not really contribute to any sort of sexual excitement. Yeah. So that made it kind of hard to even want to show up. And you know, add on the depression of that I lost my hair, which self image issues, you know, don't feel very pretty bald. And so, you know, couple all that together and I, I, I really, I, I, I got pretty depressed. Which then also, you know, doesn't help in the bedroom side in either.

And one point in the middle of all this I sent a desperate email to Dr. Ted and Nicole and I were having a conversation around our sexual frequency. And she threw out that she was fine if she never had sex again. And I think looking back, this was coming out of a state of frustration that nothing was working to restore that pleasure and sex was just not enjoyable for her. But at the time, it really shook me. So I was 53 years old, trying to walk in sobriety, was facing the possibility that sex was off the table. And Ted, it is wisdom that he always throws out. He said he didn't think this was God's plan for us and to stick with it. And so I took a long walk and I realized the problem was really with my attitude. So it always comes back to what's going on with me. It was my attitude and the importance that had assigned to sexual intercourse. And I had to make the decision that the relationship is more important than the sex. And obviously we didn't get stay stuck in this because we wouldn't be on this podcast if we had. But I think that releasing this to God and turning was a turning point in our intimacy. That really when I surrendered sex as my idol, even within marriage, you can become an idol and giving it over to him and saying, I'm committed to this relationship for better, for worse, in sickness and health. I made that commitment and we're going to work our way through this. And it may just look different than it did in the past, but we'll figure out a way that was kind of. That changed my attitude. And I think that then allowed her to step in and receive from that.

Yep. And I, I actually, as I navigated the changes in my body, I festered the heck out of my physicians. Both my primary care and my oncologist got referrals to all sorts of people. I saw a social worker who also had some sex therapy training. I had a nurse practitioner who also helped with sexual issues post cancer. You know, I asked about every possible thing there was that might help. And you know, something didn't work. I just kept asking. I looked for books, devoured books on the subject. Some of the help more helpful ones for me included. Come as yous Are by Emily Nagoski. Love Worth Making. Steven Snipe by Steven Snyder. Better Sex through mindfulness by Dr. Laurie Brado. And we'd already mentioned the Good Guys Guide to Great Sex. There's also a Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex by Sheila and Keith Gregoire. They were really helpful in kind of unpacking some of this and giving me Tools to be able to work through some of the issues I had. And I'll get into that more in a little bit. A caveat here is that not all these books are written from a person, from a Christian perspective, but I basically, in reading them, I took what worked for me, you know, and use the tools which I thought were solid, and then just disregarded the parts that I either didn't think were helpful or clash with my Christian views. I also had, Thankfully, Diane introduced me to a lady she knew who was a women's health therapist, and she helped. She worked with me via Zoom a few times to kind of learn to use the mindfulness. And I know mindfulness can be a dirty word in Christian circles, but I'm just talking about learning to be present and in the moment and aware of what I'm feeling, what I'm sensing, the thoughts that I'm having. So she helped me with that and pelvic breathing, which helped me to learn to relax, which helped with some of the pain that I had it in intercourse.

Well, thank you so much, Nicole, for your transparency and vulnerability of sharing that journey. And, I mean, man, you summarized five years in five minutes. That, for us, I think, encapsulated just such tremendous pain and struggle and a journey for you guys and how beautiful that we get to enter into that with you. And, you know, I think the two sides here of Brent, your willingness to see the relationship is worth more than sex. And I'm going to invest in the relationship no matter what that means, and vice versa. Nicole, you're willing to say, I don't want to just give up on intimacy with my spouse, physical intimacy, because of this, I'm going to keep leaning in and stay present with, what can I learn? How can I grow? And I think it's amazing that you did that. And I think for a lot of couples, what comes to mind? For me, there's a part of us that wants, you know, we want to get married in our 20s or 30s or whenever we did, and we just kind of want to figure out what works on the sex style for our spouse. We just want to set it and forget it. Like, well, this is what I do. A plus B equals C, and we'll do that for the next 50 years and be fine. But you guys said, like, it changes sometimes. Our bodies change, our brains change. The season of life changes. We go through medical stuff, and I think it really does bring us back to, like, our vows and meaning, like, for better or worse, that maybe there are seasons where physical intercourse is really easy and possible. And other seasons, it's completely impossible. But I'm going to learn new ways to connect with my spouse, to value them and to figure out to the degree that's possible, what does physical connection look like in that season of life? And it might look nothing like it did 10 or 20 years ago, but maybe in that season it's exactly what you need. And being able as a couple to stay in that together versus, I do see examples where those kind of trials are exactly what forces a couple apart, because it's like they just. They aren't able to stay connected on an emotional level, to walk through it, and it just becomes about their needs or fulfillment and finding it somewhere else and how sad that is. We've probably all seen examples of that in our circles where a marriage dissolves in the midst of crisis because they didn't come back to saying, you matter more to me than our sexual relationship or what it used to look like. And we're going to walk through this together because we don't know what the future will look like, and things may return to a more normal place or this might become our new normal. And whatever it is, we're in it together. And I just love the way that you guys kind of in story form, shared, we meant our vows, and we're going to do what we can, by God's grace, to honor them through thick and thin. And so that was pretty cool to hear.

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And it actually was a statistic that. That we heard or read somewhere that prompted that kind of got me thinking about it. And then I approached Brent with the idea of doing this podcast. It was a 2009 study done by the American Cancer Society that revealed while the overall divorce rate was similar to the general population for. For people who had. For married couples where one received a serious medical diagnosis, men were seven times more likely to leave their spouse when the wife was the person who got the diagnosis. And I'm like, isn't that sad? Isn't that sad? And, I mean, my initial was. My initial feeling was sadness because, you know, feeling, feeling for those women who not only are going through this terrible thing, but now are doing it alone, but it also made me really thankful for my husband and the fact that, you know, I know it wasn't easy for Brent to make that decision to stay. I know it was not easy for him because he's had to sacrifice a lot, but we're making it work, you know, and again, you know, that's why, again, when we said if we had to title this. It would actually. It would be in sickness and in health. I mean, when you're standing on the altar at 20 years old saying those vows, you're not thinking about what it really means. I mean, you kind of are kind of bar. But you know, it.

When it's not going to happen to me.

Right. It's going to be happily ever after. And all of a sudden, like, something big happens, you know, whatever it is, you know?

Yeah.

And you suddenly have to decide, did I really mean it? Did I really mean it?

This stuff resonates with me a lot. You know, I got married in my later 20s. My wife had endometriosis, which made intercourse painful. We didn't know if we'd be able to have kids. And obviously our sex life has had to change and grow and develop over time. We didn't have the betrayal story in our marriage, so we didn't have to tackle that hurdle. But my wife recently had a similar surgery, having some significant hormonal things. And it was a preventative, which I'm grateful for, preventative surgery. But what I'm encouraged by listening to you, you guys story is that neither of you gave up. Like, both of you still put in the work and still are focused on how do we make this marriage work? How do we stay committed to each other? How do we not just give up? Because I think you could just be like, well, you know what? We're just gonna find other ways to connect, and it's just off the table forever. And I think that that can be an encouraging message for people. Maybe in situations like mine, where there are physical things, definitely people who are in situations like you guys are too, but even people who are in recovery, that if you keep doing the work and you keep focus on growing and developing as a couple and growing yourself and your understanding, I think that there's still hope in that, whatever that may look like for each couple.

So what kind of encouragement or principles might you guys give if a couple finds themselves in a similar situation, maybe because of medical reasons or other physical situations that come up? This physical intercourse is maybe impossible or at least very difficult. What advice would you give them and what steps could they take to keep leaning in on their relationship, even during that season?

And I would even throw in sexual trauma there because they say one out of five women have experienced sexual trauma in their lifetime, and that can affect her ability to feel safe in the bedroom and cause pain and intercourse. And I think whether it be that situation, a physical situation like Nicole described, where a couple Coming off of an abstinence period and like, how do we get back into the bedroom? What I would say is start slowly. Okay. Especially like for the abstinence period of going through a period of sobriety and reintegration of the marriage. That's an opportunity to repeat the courtship and maybe do it right the second time because maybe boundaries were crossed the first time. I'd recommend this is something that we did for us as we discovered. Okay, what does this look like for us as reintroducing non sexual touch? First we started using a technique called sensate focus, which is a multi step process of learning to give and receive pleasure. And that begins with non sexual touch and then slowly incorporates sexual touch and finally intercourse. Important thing on that is it's usually presented a three stage process of one time, second time, third time, but it's okay to hang out on one of those steps and to keep practicing it. And something I had to really learn as someone who had been a sex addict was to really. This is something I prayed God teach me how to receive pleasure outside of sex. Yeah, yeah, it's good. And specifically outside of intercourse because sex is, is so much bigger than intercourse. Dr. Snyder, his book Love Work may think says and really good sex, orgasm should be like dessert at the end of a good meal. Memorable perhaps, but not the reason you went out for dinner. Yeah. And so, you know, when we limit the sexual union to just intercourse and I think we're setting ourselves up for disappointment and not realizing everything that God designed in that. And again, going back to the Song of Solomon, you can kind of get a lot of the imagery of what sex should be about from looking at that book. And so for me it was putting aside that idol of what sex looks like and learning how to receive pleasure, starting with the non sexual parts of it, because that can be very pleasurable. But because we got so focused on the intercourse, we tend to ignore that, especially for the addict that goes on the shelf. And so learning that, you know, in the sense they focus is as you are, you are the person giving the non sexual touch, experiencing what that feels like. And then when you're on the receiving end, what feels that feels like. And so you're just kind of expanding the aperture there. And for the woman in this case, that really is a way to begin to feel safe. That's not all about intercourse. So I caution the couple not to jump right back into intercourse, take it slowly. And really, like Nicole had said, that emotional connection precedes the physical connection. So there's this process called simmering that Snyder talks about where it starts at, you know, when you wake up in the morning with whispering sweet nothings to a hug out the door, to a love note, to, you know, a call that I'm thinking about you. That sets the stage for what may happen later in that evening. But if the guy expects just to jump into the sack without doing any of the work to get there, then you're not setting the stage. So.

I kind of want to springboard off that as well. So we had to be really creative because like I said, I lost a lot of my physical response, physical inputs for sexual pleasure. So actually, I mean a lot of, A lot of what, A lot of what we've had to do for me is actually do more of the sensei focus of doing like, you know, I, I really like it when Brent takes his fingertips and just runs it down my arm or runs it down my leg. Nothing sexual, but that brings me pleasure. And so that became part of our, you know, our occasional lovemaking because I had to receive pleasure somehow, even though the other inputs weren't working. And that worked. That actually worked really well. And I, I like in, in Nagaski's book Come as yous Are, she says pleasure is the measure. And what I take from that is the importance of just enjoying pleasure for pleasure's sake. Yeah, you know, I'm going into the bedroom, I'm wanting to be with this person that I love. It's not about the outcome, it's about just being together with each other, of connecting. We usually spend time talking ahead of time before we even start touching each other. Because for me, that's how I wind down my brain. You know, sex is going to be very fun. If I'm doing the, you know, going through the 20 to do list, things that I still have to do when I get up, you know, and so winding down my brain and having that emotional connection. If you guys don't mind, I do want to spend a moment talking specifically to women who experience pain during intercourse. Pain is not normal. And if you have pain during intercourse, definitely talk to your partner about some non penetrative options for being intimate and seek out medical help. For example, a pelvic floor specialist can work with a woman to be more aware of their pelvic floor muscles and to strengthen those muscles and also teach you how to relax them prior to intercourse. I already mentioned the practice of mindfulness. The Better sex through mindfulness. Dr. Lori Brado's book really kind of guide you through different exercises of being Fully present in the moment. She goes through this whole thing about eating a raisin, which is just pretty mind blowing. I would have never thought to eat a raisin that way. But if you really focus on your food, it's pretty. It's. It's like you enjoy it in a whole different way. And it's the same thing with your body. If you can just tap into what you're feeling, you know, tap into that sensation of, what does it feel like when I'm tense in my pelvic floor? What does it feel like when I'm relaxed? You know, and just be. Have a lot of grace for yourself, too. I mean, if you have something that comes in that says, well, for example, you know, if you're in the middle of lovemaking and. And you can't have an orgasm, well, does that mean you're broken? No, it doesn't mean you're broken. It means it's just not working this time. Maybe you need to change the context. Maybe you need to have more foreplay. But treating. Treating even the failures, I'm putting in quotes for those who are listening to the podcast. Even the failures in the bedroom are really not failures. You want to look at that from a lens of grace and say, okay, well, let's just try something different next time. And then for postmenopausal women, obviously, one of the problems is the changes in the vaginal tissue. Vaginal estrogen is really great, and it works locally. Very little is absorbed. So even with my cancer history, my doctors have allowed me to use that, which is great. But if it's not an option, there are a number of moisturizers that can provide some relief. There's replenish that you can just buy over the counter Reverie, which is a high aluronic acid suppository, which can help as well. And then Bezwecken hydration pearls. These were all things that were recommended to me that I tried. Those are available on Amazon. If one doesn't work, try another one. Another recommendation that I received was for CBD melts. And again, this is a vaginal suppository. What the CBD can do is help relax that pelvic floor. You use it about 20 minutes before intercourse, and it can help relax so that you don't have the pain during intercourse. I know vibrators can be a taboo subject for a lot of people, sure. But I'm just going to say Ted and Diane recommended them, which kind of shocked me at the. At the time. But they. They're really great as A tool to increase the blood flow and natural lubrication. And of course, you know, there's a whole slew of different kind of lubricants. Yeah. So again, if one doesn't work, try a different one. Just with the caveat that if you are someone who uses a condom as birth control, stick to the water based ones because anything else can degrade the condom.

That was like a masterclass.

I appreciate it because I do think it's an avoided topic that people are just like, well, I guess we're not gonna have sex because it hurts versus exploring options. And obviously. And I think you need to do things only that you're comfortable with. And so if some of the things Nicole brought up are outside of your comfort or even theology, it's like, hey, no big deal. I think the point is there are things we can do to explore our sexuality that go beyond intercourse. Because we may have gotten so focused on that it has to be penis vagina that that's what sex is. And outside of that, we haven't had sex. It's like, well, no, as a married couple, there's a lot of ways we can connect sexually that may go beyond that or look different than that, especially in some seasons. And you know, the thing I was going to add, my only personal experience kind of along these lines was, you know, obviously in the recovery of my wife from pregnancies. And unfortunately, I was only in a more healthy place for our last pregnancy where there's a season of abstinence, of not able to have sex. And for the first three kids it was just like, can we hurry up and get through this so we can get back to me having sex? And it was very selfish and pleasure driven. In the fourth pregnancy or after math, I was able to finally look at what am I really looking for? Because I knew I was finally getting enough tools to know that it was more than just the pleasure. And I realized there were things like how much I value physical touch. And so it was like even just giving my wife more back rubs in that season, which she loved. It did something for me of like, we're touching, we're close, we're physical. And in a sense we're intimate as a couple in a way that we are with nobody else in the world that met a part of my need. And I also realized how much sex validated my sense of worthiness to her. Now, she didn't ever say that in sex, but I just, I had connected in my brain. Sex means I'm valuable to her and so unable to realize that and say to her, I'm looking to feel valued to you. And obviously we had babies and, like, that wasn't always easy for her. And I wouldn't say that hopefully in a selfish way, but it did communicate a need to her that then there were ways she could be aware of. I can communicate to my husband how much he means to me without having to have sex to prove it. And those things, like, I feel like we grew so much because we couldn't have sex. I had to figure out what was I really looking for. And I only bring that up to say, if you're in a season where sex is limited or impossible, it is an opportunity, like Nicole brought up, to see what can I learn about myself, about my needs, about what I'm really looking for. Because, yes, pleasure is a part of it, but it's only a part. And we have a lot of other areas we can explore and a lot of other ways we might receive pleasure that don't just have to do with intercourse. So I think there's a lot that couples can explore. That doesn't mean it's going to be an easy or straightforward journey, but I think it's worthwhile because it draws us together and it'll bring out new things in our relationship that we haven't had a chance to work out before.

Yeah. So let's. I mean, let's just end this with that. What encouragement would you have? I mean, there's just so many different people in different seasons of their recovery and their marriage. Maybe they're single and thinking about this, how am I going to integrate this into my marriage when I say I do to somebody. What encouragements do you have for our listeners around this area of navigating sexual struggles in a marriage?

Well, I think the biggest thing I would say is there's, you know, there's hope. Even when things seem very bleak. Don't give up. You know, press into each other. Take this as an opportunity to get to know your spouse in a different way. You know, we. We've used that. That little exercise, the mad, sad, glad, dread and dreams, you know, just to have conversations every day to kind of take up, take a, you know, a temperature check of how things are going with the other person. That's been really helpful. That creates some of that emotional intimacy. You know, like I said, it's. Don't give up asking. You know, if one person doesn't give you the answers, talk to somebody else. You know, research, find books that are helpful. You know, I mentioned some in during the podcast that were particularly helpful for me, read up about it. Think outside the box. You know, like. Like Nick said, it doesn't have to just be intercourse. You know, you can be together sexually and not have intercourse and still have a very wonderful experience, bonding experience with each other. So, yeah, just keep. Keep pressing in. Keep pressing in.

Yeah. I think it's worth bringing up sacrificial love in all this. And that's, you know, we say it. We. We like to quote First Corinthians 13 and marriage ceremonies. But, you know, how often do our marriages really reflect that of where we're laying down our life for the other person? And, and situations like this, it gets tough. Whether it be around betrayal, whether it be around ph is really a test of. Did those vows really mean what you said? Yeah. When. When you made them. And it's. It's really, as we say within the Christian circles, this is a covenant. This is not just a commitment. It's a covenant. And God takes these covenants very seriously. Now, I'm not, you know, this is not a theological discussion on marriage and divorce or not, but I'm just saying that it's very easy to, even within a marriage, to give up on that marriage. Even if I decide I'm not going to separate or get divorced, just to give up and to stop trying. And that's not God's best for us. And that was Ted's advice to me. That was. What he was nudging me on is like, you know, don't. Don't give up on this thing. This is not God's plan for your lives. And when we start putting the knees of the other person above our own needs in these situations, that's the opportunity for God to show up and do great things. And that's what he did in our relationship. And I just want to. I think that's why we wanted to come on this podcast, is just to give people hope that this, you know, what's happening today doesn't have to be your new normal.

Yeah.

That there can be hope. It may not look the same as what it was before. Yeah. But like Nick was talking about, we can find something that works for us. It just may not be what it was in the past.

Yeah. Great words, husbands. Love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. And, you know, you've lived that, Brent, and you've lived that, Nicole. I'm going to give of myself for the good of my spouse. And it's not easy to do, but I think when we hear a story like that, it's beautiful to see that your faith in Christ and that call to live beyond yourself really made a tangible difference in your marriage. And I, I just appreciate that message of hope. And I think a lot of people, this is maybe the first podcast of this kind they've heard along these lines. It's like, wow, I think you're going to really impact a lot of marriages. So thanks for your vulnerability and your willingness to share all that you did today.

Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having us on.

This is what I love about the podcast is that we can explore topics like this that, I mean, I don't think I've ever had a conversation like this before, you know, and just knowing that there are people who are listening who, this is their experience and maybe in this moment they finally feel seen for the first time or heard or understood. So we do, we really appreciate you guys vulnerability, your willingness to even bring this topic to the table and say, hey, we want to talk about it. And just for your time today. So thanks for being with us, guys.

Thanks for having us.

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