346 - Myth Busters: Marriage Will Fix It

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello, hello, hello, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 346 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Alakazam alakazoo. Bibbidi bobbidi boo. Cinderella. Yeah, actually, you know, just a little quick research I was doing before someone rudely interrupted me. Oh, sorry, That's. Actually, those words are used in quite a number of Disney films and now in songs. And like, those words have just kind of become known as, like. That's what you say when you're going to do something magical. You say, alakazam, alakazoo. And evidently, then stuff happens and then bippity boppity boop.

That is the. Is that the fairy godmother?

Is that.

Yeah.

Cinderella. She says those words.

Yeah.

Have you. I don't know if you've done just watching the old Disney movies now. I just experience them so differently than when I was a kid. It's just like, wow, like, that person's drinking and smoking and there's like all. I don't know, it just. It's funny. There was like a. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I've just heard there's like this dark underbelly of all the Disney movies that were made. It's just funny to me.

That's.

Yeah, well, and the things that we put in movies in the 50s, 60s and 70s do look, you know, culture changes, sentiments change. And what. What didn't catch us off guard is odd for children 50 years ago. Might. Might now and.

Right.

You know, I can only imagine what people 50 years from now are going to look back on and look at things like, you know, the. The TV shows, cartoons that our kids watch and be like, what were they thinking? Like, what's up with the blue dog and all these talking pets? And, you know, is this healthy for children? I don't know. Maybe they will. But I'm sure we're all watching stuff, too, that people won't quite understand 50 years from now.

The show Bluey contributes to my family in a positive way. I'll just put it there. Okay. So we had our clinical director, Tyler Chintzen, on, and he was talking with us about, really, this myth that we see perpetuated a lot, especially in Christian circles, that marriage will fix my problem with lust, pornography or sexual brokenness.

Yeah. And I think we can maybe, without realizing it, feel like that couple stands at the altar and as the pastor speaks, you know, the words over them, I now pronounce you husband and wife. It's kind of an alakazam alakazoo moment. Like, poof. You're magically different people who your past problems and patterns disappear because now that you have found the one, you know, that person that makes you this oneness and a new, you know, and they even kind of say those words like, you're. You're now new because you're one and you're not the same. And there's truth to that, you know, spiritually speaking, and before God, he makes us one. I mean, I don't want to undervalue that at all. But the reality is that our personal challenges, struggles, and false beliefs don't go away in that moment. And I think we really do. Hopefully the listener agrees. I think we do a good job at unpacking where that comes from and even looking at ways that, as you've heard the title Listener, you might feel like, I don't think this is really an issue for me, but you've at least come this far because you enjoy listening to the podcast. I think you might find, as we discuss it, that there are more subtle ways that this thinking enters into a marriage relationship and what we expect of our spouse, what we expect of our physical relationship. And I just think we can all learn a lot about not putting pressure on my spouse or my marriage to fix my life unless I'm doing the work to address those things. So hopefully we can break some people free of that magical thinking and see that, yes, marriage is a beautiful. The wedding is a beautiful ceremony that is honoring, I think, before God to make those declarations, but it's not a magical cure all for those things we struggle with.

Yeah. And if anything, this episode just reinforces the need for recovery, recovery groups and all of that. And so it definitely fits in the theme and the vein that we work in. So enjoy the episode with Tyler Chinson on the myth of marriage will fix it. All right, Tyler Chinson, welcome back, my friend. Good to see you.

Thank you, Trevor. Always appreciate the invite.

Yes. And for those of you watching on YouTube, we always debate on the actual color of Tyler's couch. You know, it reminds me of. Do you remember that dress that went around on social media? Like, is it black and gold or blue and black or something? It's like that. It's like, exactly like that. It's. Yeah. So I'm just gonna say from our vantage point, it looks red. He said it's as orange as orange. Can so there you go. Lighting makes a huge difference. Hey, let's not spend more time on that. Today we're tackling another myth, one that we often hear especially inside the church. There is an assumption that marriage solves our struggle with lust, pornography, sexually compulsive behaviors. And so we're going to spend our time unpacking all of that. Tyler, let's just start with this. Where does this myth that marriage will fix it come from? And why do you think it's such a widely held belief going into marriage?

You know, Trevor, culturally, I think we want it to be true. You know, we're called into relationship from the very beginning, Adam, Eve, and we often tell our youth, wait for the right person, save yourself for marriage. And, and then with that, there's a bit of an assumption that things will be perfect. Bliss and all those statements that guidance is healthy. It's not always reality. And it can set us up with an unrealistic expectation.

That's really funny. I wish I could like show our whole audience, but I wrote the. I literally wrote the word bliss on my notes because that's the word that came to mind. Like, we look ahead at marriage and we tend to see, and this is human nature, we see the best of it. Like, this is going to be great. I get to live with my best friend, be around him all the time. We can have sex whenever we want. It's just going to be this fun, wonderful, never ending adventure. And we don't look at the reality that relationships are hard, people are messy, things take work. Not only do I bring the best of myself to the marriage, I bring the worst of myself, and so do they. And when the shadow side of my life interacts with the shadow side of my spouse is like, things get hard in a hurry and we just have a really hard time thinking about that before marriage. And so we can have this myth of like, man, everything bad in my life is just going to get better. And we certainly don't want people thinking that marriage is bad or you shouldn't get married because there are, there are wonderful things about marriage. There are great things that happen in us, but a lot of the best things happen because we really put in some hard work, not because everything is just easy and blissful all the time. And so I think that's just the myth is we feel like, well, man, if I, if I'm in a state of life right now, especially if we've been, as Tyler mentioned, saving ourselves for marriage, you know, wanting to have that be the only person that we're sexually intimate with. It just feels like I'm going from a state of singleness to marriage. Like, this is going to be perfect, but we are not able to anticipate all the challenges that come along with living day to day with another human being.

Yeah, I think, too, going into it, there's an assumption that my struggle with lust, pornography, sexual brokenness, solely has to do with sex. And I think that that contributes to this myth significantly that if only I had sexual release or someone that I was able to have sex with more often and that it be under, you know, God's, like, banner of acceptance that somehow, you know, all of those things would go away. And I know that was, for me, you know, getting into marriage, I thought, oh, surely this is just. I'm not having sex problem. Not. There's something else going on much deeper. And so I know we'll unpack more of that as we get into the conversation. But I know for me, that is the. The main reason why I carried this myth going into marriage.

Yeah. So let's go a little bit deeper into that. Tyler. What. What makes this a myth? Why is it a myth? Because doesn't, you know, doesn't marriage make our desire for sex lessen when we're routinely having it with our marriage partner?

In a healthy and committed marriage, the desire for intimacy, not necessarily sex, should actually increase. And as a byproduct of that intimate nature of marriage, the physical intimacy may also increase the likelihood. Yeah, it will increase. It's just a whole different. Whole different paradigm, whole different experience when we're engaged in. In that committed relationship intimacy. It's. It's just a different ball game, if you will.

Yeah. I think too specifically for Christians who grow up with that message, you know, and then, you know, it playing out that I saved myself for marriage, that it may be the first time you're actually experiencing, you know, sex as, you know, God created it, sexual intercourse, you know, being able to do it without shame. And, you know, for me, if anything, it just widened my imagination to what could be, you know, when it came to sex. And so I think for me, it didn't lessen the desire whatsoever. It just amplified it. If anything, it just made my imagination wander and, you know, especially when it comes to my struggle with pornography that I had had. And I'm still so grateful that betrayal didn't play out and blow up my marriage that I started getting healthy before. But the expectations I had because of pornography and my struggle with it, that got copy and pasted over onto My sex life inside of marriage. And so, if anything, it actually could have. And I don't want to put this because this isn't something I put on my wife, but I think in some ways, it actually perpetuated my addiction to sex, my addiction to wanting to have an orgasm and use somebody else's body for my pleasure. And so I think it just. Yeah, it caused more issues for me than anything.

Yeah, well, you think about something we say often at pure desire, and I remember I heard it in my first year that your sexual addiction or your porn addiction has nothing to do with sex. And at first, to me, that sounded nonsensical. It's like, well, that's. What are you talking about? But then, of course, you learn in the journey that we've been using pornography or acting out sexually to. As a way to medicate pain, as a way to escape difficulty and messiness of life, as a way to numb out to things that we don't want to feel. And the reality is that in marriage, and this was my experience, like marriage, the sex becomes hopefully about that physical connection with your spouse. You like each other, you're drawn to each other. You have that freedom for physical intimacy. And that was happening while simultaneously, I still had unmet needs for what do I do with my pain? How do I escape these feelings? And it's the pattern I had taught myself for so many years before marriage. And then kind of, as you brought up Trevor, in marriage, you feel pain, you feel frustrations, you feel things that maybe actually you've never quite felt before. And your brain, your body, your heart has learned, oh, the way I deal with these is I escape. And so that pattern doesn't go away because the source of it is still present. And if we're not attentive to this is why I escaped pornography or escaped to acting out sexually. Those patterns are still there and can be concurrent with regular sexual intimacy with your spouse. Because they're kind of two. I mean, obviously they're connected and related topics. But the purpose for entering into both of them is entirely different. So both can be true. And if we don't address the unmet needs that led us into our addictive behaviors, marriage doesn't just magically make them go away.

If I can make the distinction between intimacy and sex, because those are very, very different concepts, very different experiences. In a committed marriage, sex should be intimate. Outside of that committed marriage, say, pre marriage, there's not a lot of intimacy involved. And so to learn intimacy once entering marriage can be extremely challenging.

Yeah, that's another myth we should probably tackle at another point too. Intimacy equals sex. Okay, so if marriage doesn't fix the problem of sexual brokenness or addiction, what can? This belief of this myth, when someone carries it into their marriage, someone specifically struggling, you know, when it comes to sexual purity, what can this do to them, to their marriage, if they bring it into it?

Oftentimes Trevor just increases the level of shame, like, oh my goodness, here I am and I'm still carrying this burden with me, and there must be something wrong with me. It also impacts the relational dynamic within that marriage, you know, as an individual carries that burden into marriage. And it also places additional undue pressure on the person not battling with the brokenness or compulsive behavior where unrealistic expectations may have been placed upon them as well.

Yeah, I know. That was totally my experience of, as I just described, when we're having regular sexual connection and then I'm still falling into that binge purge pattern with pornography. The shame of, like, I'm the worst person in the world because I've got a great, beautiful wife that I'm really enjoying having sex with. What is wrong with me that I would pursue these things? I was totally blind to the pattern and why I was acting out and all those reasons. So that shame sets in. And I think, and I'm grateful, I feel like God protected me from this. But I do hear it a lot from men in recovery that they can. Not only does the spouse maybe feel that pressure internally, but a lot of men may end up putting that pressure on their spouse because they think, well, if I'm still battling, it must just be. It's not frequent enough. And the danger of that cycle, man, the pain of, well, if we're only having sex twice a week and I'm still feeling lustful thoughts, we must need it every day. And I've even heard stories where men expecting of a spouse like multiple times a day because they need it to avoid lust. And it's like, wow, that's just so buying into this fallacy that, that if I just get enough of it from my spouse, I won't need anything else. And I, I mean, I wish that were true because a lot of people would have a lot easier time being healthy, but it's, it's not related. And so you can be attempting as often as you want for that sexual connection in your marriage and still not have it work out. And that's why we say this is such a myth. Because we hear those stories that for the guy or gal who's, you know, battling this myth, and they're maybe only having sexual connection with their spouse weekly or a couple times a month or even more infrequent, it might be easier for them to think, like, well, no, it's not a myth. It's just that I'm not getting it enough. And I want you to hear from me, like, we've talked to the people that they're having as much sex as they could possibly want, and they're still stuck in the pattern of sexual brokenness and acting out. And so don't, don't think that it's just your state of affairs, that if you only had it more, this wouldn't be a myth. The frequency does not make a difference.

Yeah, I think too, there's a sense of disillusionment that can happen when you get into marriage. You assume it's going to solve the problem. And then, yeah, as you guys have talked about, you can put pressure on your spouse, you can shame yourself. But also, like, something's wrong with our marriage. Like, you hear other couples talk about their sex life and then you start to compare, like, why are we not experiencing that level? Why do I still feel like I need to go outside my marriage? And so I think that it ends up. It really can be a cancer inside of a marriage that deteriorates it from the inside. Because there's something, and it is, there is something wrong. But we're placing the blame of that wrong on maybe our marriage as a whole. And I think that, man, that can devalue your view of marriage, divorce maybe becomes a quick option in your head. Maybe you're telling your friends, like, well, marriage isn't really what it's chopped up to be. Like our parents were lying to us or our pastor's lying to us or whatever. And so I think that can just create even more issues down the road.

Yeah. So, Tyler, we know you work with a lot of couples. You've sat in these moments with that front row seat of couples battling through the sexual brokenness in their marriage. And it's not just the struggling spouse that might bring this mindset. It can also be the spouse who ends up feeling betrayed. It's often the woman. And it's very true of them. I think that they may bring a similar mindset of thinking it's up to me to keep him from looking at pornography. It's up to our frequency to help him. They may be. May even have been taught in their church upbringing that my body is not my own. And while there's a. I think a beautiful, healthy application of that, when rightly understood. There's also many dangerous, manipulative ways in which that phrase has been used and left women feeling like, I have no right to say, no, it's my husband, it's my spouse, and so I need to give it to them so that they don't stray. When. When someone is operating with that kind of mindset, what. What kind of implications have you seen in the marriage when a partner is believing that myth?

There's that possibility, Nick, of losing one's identity. My identity is in this, we'll say, sexual relationship, and that just creates distance between two people. It's not authentic. It's not real. It's obligatory. Another implication of buying into the myth that marriage will fix everything is when it doesn't and disclosure occurs down the road, and that the spouse was not even clear, had no indication that this was a problem. That's when a grenade goes off in the room. And again, often the female spouse is devastated. I had no idea. I thought. I thought this. You know, I. I thought he was who he said he was. But now we're in. In this space that I didn't sign up for, and I'm being pulled into this recovery process because I feel deeply betrayed. I do want to be healthy, but I bought into the myth that this would fix everything. Yeah.

Well.

And I didn't even know what needed to be fixed.

Yeah. And if that spouse is operating under the idea that I need to meet his needs, and then I come to find out that I wasn't meeting his needs and he wasn't even telling me, I could imagine that sense of being duped, being manipulated, and that feeling of taking advantage of. Like, after all I did for you and for our marriage sexually, you still were doing that. Like, I imagine it just really increases the pain. Is that right?

Absolutely is right. And again, I've heard over and over again from a betrayed spouse. I didn't sign up for this. I had no idea. I thought I was stepping in with him with a clean slate. And so I joined with him, met him in that space. And now I'm realizing, you know, the truth has come out, and it hasn't been truthful.

Right. And it is interesting that this myth on both ends, you know, can be so challenging and shaming for both spouses. But another thing, too, I was thinking about is not only if their belief is that I just need to have more sex with my spouse in order to help because marriage is supposed to fix it, then that actually could be you subjecting yourself to like traumatizing yourself. And you know, we've talked about this too, the, like how disclosure happens, how. And not that this is like an outright form of sexual abuse, but like there is a point where it's like this pressure that I have to perform sexually for my spouse so that they don't, you know, struggle anymore, act out or have sex with other people that like your trauma profile starts to look really scary. I mean, you literally are subjecting yourself to more and more trauma over time. And in the moment you don't think that's what's happening. But if you were to, I just can tell you right now, if you look at how that person's life, you know, continues, you'll see that come out sideways in a lot of different ways. And so there isn't just shame that happens, there's actual trauma that's being experienced by the betrayed partner. It's significant.

Well, I do want to point out that I think healthy sexual connection in a marriage is helpful. It can create resiliency in our life. I think it can create a sense of bondedness and of connection, of coupleship, that it feels like man, no matter what's happening in my world, the two of us are together, like that's helpful. But at the same time, we need to recognize anywhere in my life I start to take responsibility for someone else's actions. We're in a dangerous place. And so as spouses we need the freedom. You need the freedom to hear. You are not responsible for keeping your spouse pure. You are not responsible for keeping them from making bad choices. That's their responsibility. And don't put that burden on yourself thinking if I just do X, Y or Z enough, then they'll never struggle again. Because it really opens the door to a whole lot more trauma and pain. And I think the than that self loathing of like, what's wrong with me? Why am I not enough? Because the message is if I was only enough, they wouldn't struggle. And then they struggle. So I'm left thinking it must be me and that that's just a really destructive mindset that can be healed and we can recover from. But I would also want to say I think we can keep ourselves free from us saying that's not my role, that's not my burden to carry. That needs to stay appropriately with the other person. And the other thought that just came to mind too, that we need to make sure that in marriage, even though we do have a very kind of self giving model, that's given us in scripture of like put the others needs first, you know, look to, to, to honor them. And there's a lot of truth to that. I don't think that means we lose our agency. We don't lose the freedom to say no. And I've heard some speakers talk about it to say that if, if my spouse doesn't have the freedom to say no for whatever reason, then their yes really doesn't mean much. You know. And we go to what Sheila Ray Gregoire has talked about with duty sex. And, and they're not. Their heart's not even it. They're just, they're just a body that's there physical needs. And it's like that's not. I mean you could call that something, but that's not sex as God designed or created it. That's a totally different thing. And without agency, it's not really sexual connection. Because the sexual connection that God designed involves both parties willingly coming with kind of that self sacrificing attitude. And I can't do that unless I have a choice to do it. So I think if you're engaged in anything in your marriage where you don't feel like you have agency to actually say no or, or do what you feel is healthy, it's in the long term gonna have a destructive impact on your relationship.

Yeah. And it just too. Just because it's super interesting. If you look at Sheila Rae Gregoire's research that she did, there are physical manifestations of what that trauma of duty sex does to the female body, which can hinder sexual pleasure. And honestly, the actual act of it can become more painful. There's a lot at play there. Um, let's kind of get into. And this is, you know, feel free, Tyler, to think of me putting the ball on the tee for you and handing you a very large bat with this question. But if marriage doesn't solve the problem with lust, with pornography or sexual brokenness, what's the alternative to getting healthy? What can we do? If we get married, maybe we're having frequent sex with our spouse and still it's not ridding us of this struggle.

Yeah, Trevor, thanks for the tf. Marriage likely won't fully address those issues because we know that addiction is more of a neurological issue. It's a brain problem, if you will, that has been established over the course of a number of years, typically. So what is needed to fully overcome those unhealthy, unwanted behaviors is an intentional effort really for recovery and healing and restoration. Getting to that place that God designed for Us. And that's identifying some of those core sources of the behavior. When did it begin? What were your life dynamic relational dynamics like back then? Oftentimes we can trace this behavior back to family of origin. And so it does require an intentional effort to rid oneself of the behavior, the compulsive behavior.

You know, I hope this episode speaks to anyone listening who's still single, because I think we need to hear, I shouldn't wait for marriage to deal with my stuff. I shouldn't hope it gets better, and I don't bring that pain to the marriage. And I recall, you know, when I was a young man, I was engaged, and I heard at a Bible study of man, a guy who had been married a couple of years, and he had this exact talk of like, hey, marriage isn't going to solve your struggle. You need to work on it. And to a degree, like, I believed him. I was like, okay, I've heard enough guys say that, that I don't think marriage is like this magic pill that you just take and you never lust anymore. But I still thought marriage for me was going to be part of a recovery strategy that because I'm married and I love the Lord and I'm sincere about walking in integrity, it's just. It's just going to kind of go, like, I'm going to grow up. I'm just going to grow up, and it's going to go away. It's going to wear itself out like an old pair of running shoes, and I'll just get rid of it and not need it anymore. And I found that even that little bit. So I think the reason I'm saying this is that I didn't believe this myth wholeheartedly, ever. But there was a little shade of it where I thought, yeah, but it's really gonna help me be what I finally need to kick the habit. And I think for a lot of single men and women, that may be where they're at of like, okay, I know it won't fix it, but it's sure gonna help, right? Like, it's gonna make it a whole lot easier. And I've led enough groups with married men and single men in the same group. And I can tell you, in every one of those groups, the married men are looking at the single men saying, I wish I were you. And the single men are looking at the married men saying, I wish I were you, that I could be married and working on this. And the married men are like, no, you don't. You don't want that pain. You don't want this level of hurt. You don't want to have to work through the betrayal your spouse feels. And the words they're going to use when they tell you how you're making them feel. Like, don't hang on to this thinking that somehow it gets easier in marriage because the stakes just get amplified and the pain of recovery is a lot more to work through. So I think we have to examine that myth all the way down to maybe the shades of it where we think, well, yeah, but it's going to help because it may keep us from doing the work that we need to do. So for all you singles out there, like, go all in on your healing and recovery because you'll be glad you did and it's worth it. And I think it just underscores if you're married and you're struggling rather than shaming yourself like I did of I must be the most horrible person in the world. Like, use it as that wake up call to see, oh, it's really evident that getting married didn't fix my problems. I'm going to have to be more proactive. I'm going to have to do something outside of my norm to pursue healing. Otherwise this isn't. There's nothing that can just come into my life that's going to take it away magically for me. I'm going to have to do the work. I'm going to have to apply myself to a process. And then if you do, as we've seen over and over through the lives of men and women here at Pure Desire, change is possible, but not without hard work, intention and sacrifice to really engage in your own recovery.

You know, another kind of shade I was thinking about as you mentioned was I think there's this expectation that when I get married, I'll have my spouse be my accountability partner. That, yeah, they'll help be a part of. You know, my plan to get healthy. And part of that is they can help police me. And I don't know if everyone has heard this before, but the idea that your spouse would also become your, like, mother and like, keeping up on you, making sure you're doing your responsibilities is not a role that you want them in and is absolutely not a role that they should be in because you don't want your spouse to be a police officer and always checking in on you. And so I think that that's like another shade to, you know, and I'll use it as a reinforcement to say that pure desire groups are for this exact reason to be in A community of other people following a recovery plan that's laid out for you. And I recently said it to someone just the other day that like seven pillars of freedom, compassionate warrior, an unraveled group, all of these ones that we have for people struggling, they don't actually do the work for you. They just lay the path. You walk the path, you do the work, but you do it with other people. That key are not your spouse. I think that that's such an important piece to addressing really what is motivating our behaviors because you can take medication for, you know, physical pain that you have, and it can take the pain away, but if you don't know what's causing the pain in the first place, it may never go away. And that's why we have recovery groups. That's why it's such an important process.

Trevor, that's a great point. If I could speak just for a moment about the spouse policing and being the accountability person. She, I'll say, often is in that position of when is the next lapse or relapse going to occur, and she's often on edge and it's just another form of trauma and anticipating that trauma. So I 100% agree. That is not the right situation for accountability. It's just not the right person. The spouse. And one more thing around sinkles, those men who step up, typically in their early 20s, and say, I want to be free from this burden because I don't want to carry it into my marriage. Talk about respect. I mean, that speaks to their character. It speaks to vision for the future. And I would just encourage those men jump in and give it 100%. You'll be in a much different place after you go through a healing and recovery process. And you'll. You'll be, thank you. The future you will. Thank you for sure.

Yeah, yeah. If I could also speak to that accountability piece. I think the reason a lot of spouses set up their other spouse as the accountability partner is they think, well, if they saw that I was relapsing, the pain of that would be so great that it'll keep me from ever doing it. And we think it's going to be like this magical insurance policy. And yet what we have found is there is no consequence great enough to keep you from your sin or addictive pattern. Because when we're in that place, our thinking brain is shut off, our logical brain shuts down, and the lies that kick in and say, well, I'm not going to tell anyone when no one's going to know. And I'm going to do what I want because I can't seem to avoid it. It doesn't matter, because I've admit, like they said, well, I'm going to lose my job or I'm going to do this. That consequence isn't enough because, A, you'll either find a way around it, or B, you'll still end up acting out and you'll have to face that horrible consequence. And so that's what I think happens in a lot of marriages. They invite the spouse in because they think, boy, that barrier, I'll just never break it. And then they do. If that's the only thing they're setting up, you know, if they're not actively pursuing healing in group and doing the work and making the phone calls, and then it just gets a whole lot more messy because now the spouse knows how often it's taking place, and it just really amplifies the pain. So, Tyler, one of the quotes I've heard or I'm thinking about in this episode is that there are two things primarily that change us. Pain, vision. And we've talked a lot about the pain of bringing this into marriage, what it does to our spouse, that if we live in this myth, it could be a lot of pain. But let's look now at more vision, like a vision of the future. So what can happen in our marriage if we address this and we don't believe that marriage will fix us? We get rid of that myth. What kind of outcomes might we see in our marriage? What does this recovery and healing journey offer us in terms of a better vision of the kind of relationship we could have?

Big picture, Nick. It's living out the original design for relationship, for marriage, for sexuality that the Lord created from the beginning. And. And living out in that space, living life in that space is fulfilling. It's rewarding, there's joy. And so it's living as God intended us to live. And it's a big calling, but it's also living in victory. And that's a good place. Unburdened.

Yeah. I think what came to mind for me is just you're not using sex as a medication anymore, and you're not using your spouse as a way, you know, to be your recovery plan or keep you from unwanted behavior. And just these two words came to mind. Responding versus reacting. That if you live this reactive, you know, you're talking about Tyler, a spouse being on edge all the time. When's the next shoe gonna drop? You know, have we had enough sex this month that it's like, you know, he's gonna be okay or she's gonna be okay. I think you're able to be more present with your spouse in the moment, responding to the intimacy that you're building outside of the bedroom. And then that leads into the sexual relationship. And so I think that sex becomes a healthy part of your relationship, not the dominant part of your relationship. And, yeah, I mean, I've talked about this so many different times. Perpetual eye roll from the listener. But I just think, for me, I saw all of the ways that this addiction was impacting my life. Like my emotional health, my physical health, my ability to relate to people at an intimate level outside of certain contexts. You know, there's just so many different things. So for me, this opened extra layers of healing that I could experience on a personal level that impacted not only my marriage, but also my relationship with my kids. I had this. Oh, my gosh, last night, guys, we're getting ready for bed. And for whatever reason, my four year old, he already knows how to go. He's potty trained. He can do the whole thing. But for whatever reason, he's like, dad, I have to go to the bathroom. I need your help. And I'm like, just go, you don't need my help. He's like, no. And so we have this back and forth. Well, he doesn't get on the toilet, you know, fast enough because he's yelling at me to come help, and he pees all over the bathroom. And I just got so angry. I'm, like, clenching my teeth and I raise my voice and he just, like, freaks out.

And.

And in that moment, I just like, I was like, oh, crap, like I'm hurting my kid right now. I got down on his level and I'm like, brooks, I'm so sorry. So sorry. Daddy got so frustrated and I shouldn't have treated you that way. And I was thinking about it even this morning, that I would have never responded that way. I would not have come to that quickly. I would not have tried to reconnect with my kid. I would not have owned my mistakes. And I'm even thinking about today, like, having. I want to go home and reinforce that connection even more with him. I want to make sure that he knows. And that's the kind of thing that recovery did for me, that understanding marriage doesn't fix it. Understanding, okay, there's more to this problem. And then addressing what that actual problem does has created a healthier me where I'm able to be more present to the sin in my life. And the repentance I need to take, the connections I have with my family. There's just. I mean, I could spend an hour talking about all the different ways, probably more than that, but that's, for me, is how it's played out and the. The vision I would cast for people.

What I hear in that, Trevor, is the best version of you coming forth. You know, there are moments that, you know, we haven't quite achieved that, but you're moving in that direction and that version of you is coming forth. So, well done.

I didn't tell that story for that. I mostly told you just so you know, I'm very sinful and have my own issues, but I just. There is. There's so much at stake that you don't realize this area can impact.

Yeah. Recovery is very holistic. And I would say in our experience, and I've noted this in the stories of other couples, we thought we were having good sex. It was regular, it was enjoyable, we both were in it. But I think as we look back, pre recovery, it was mostly physical connection, and it was about getting Meads net desires. But in recovery, as we started to really get traction and we were connecting emotionally and spiritually, we were able to connect on the level of our past traumas and how we brought things into the marriage. And my wife was really feeling, seen, heard and valued. There started to be a physical connection that went far deeper, that felt like that holistic, emotional, spiritual, physical connection. And it was like, wow, we thought we were having sex, but wow, it just got so much better. And not because of technique or anything else other than just we felt a soul connection. And so obviously I don't want to have a person pursuing recovery just because they're looking for better sex, but it really was an outcome of the work. And I think that's what I'm describing is that when we're doing the hard work of recovery, then our sexual connection becomes an outcome of the good stuff already happening in our relationship, not a replacement for it or a substitute for a lack of that connection. And it's really hard to describe until you get there, but like I said, I heard it enough stories that I have the confidence that when there's this deeper emotional connection that's in place prior to our physical connection, it does something. And it's worth striving for to say, man, like you mentioned, Tyler, this is the best that God created us for. This is what he designed. And I didn't realize how much I was missing it because I was just making it about Physical needs until we started to get traction in our recovery.

I. I'm reminded, Nick, of early in our marriage, my wife and I, there was a moment in intimacy that God just reveals himself. Sorry. And I looked upon her, and she looked just like an angel. Doesn't get any better. But it has gotten better. But in just. In that moment, I realized, okay, Lord, you're in this. Yeah, you got me. You got her. You have us. This is good.

That's cool. And also, don't ever apologize for crying again.

I'm telling you.

Yeah, you just. You stop it. But that is. I mean, I think you bring up a. I don't want to belabor this at all, but you brought up a good point that, like, it's good to remember that God created sex and that it is a good thing, and it's a gift, and he is in it. If you feel like God is not a part of your sex life, then you're doing it wrong, you know? And I'm sure there are many ways where that plays out day to day for us in our relationships, but just keep that in mind. For sure. Okay, so we're gonna kind of land the plane here, but we. We see how much pain this myth can bring into a marriage on an individual level in the actual coupleship itself. But let's look at it from the perspective of pastors, parents, churches. How can we make sure that we're not perpetuating this myth and we're not teaching it? And we're really revealing a couple different things. One, what marriage actually is and what sex is, and then also what breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior actually is. So what can we do to help not perpetuate this myth?

Yeah, Trevor. I think it begins with an open and authentic conversation, and that can extremely challenging. As you know, in the home, it can be challenging, but hopefully that's where it begins. At a pretty early age with our youth, we're talking about God's design for sexuality because we know if the. As the adversary gets in there, he's taken us off point. So we want to guide our children well and being real with them. And I believe our kids want open and honest communication. They may not say, yeah, bring it on, mom. Bring it on, dad. But I think they desire that and need it and just to. To provide guidance and clarity as they move forward, you know, in their early years, because we know that the producers of pornography they target those young folks. Eight to 12 years old is typically the primary target market. And if we can reach those young People and begin the conversation about healthy sexuality. We'll help them out. I think that's what we're called to do as well.

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines of prohibition versus provision. That if, if in the church or in our homes, we only focus on the prohibition of, like God said, no, don't do this. This is wrong, this is dirty. Outside of marriage, it's bad. And then, you know, our young people grow up and they're ready for marriage and now we kind of give them a thumbs up, like, well, okay, now it's all good. Go have fun and make an assumption that they're just going to figure it all out when all we've ever told them is, no, no, no, don't, don't, don't. And I think a lot of people can then feel inhibited in their sexuality, in the marriage because they haven't really been taught the provision of God's goodness and God's plan and how God made our bodies to work. And, you know, you read the Song of Solomon in the old testament, and 3,000 years ago, they didn't bat an eye about using pretty graphic description of physical intimacy that I think was intended to help prepare people in that engagement season for physical intimacy in their marriage. And so that there was a provision of God's goodness and God's plan and an understanding of it's not just all going to be easy or get better or your problems don't go away. Like, do we talk through these things or we just, do we fall into that mindset of thinking, well, my job as a parent or pastor is just to keep people from bad choices and then just expect they'll figure out the good choices on their own. And that's, I think, the way of thinking that perpetuates some of these myths because no one's really talked through the alternative of how do I stay healthy, how do I discipline my mind, how do I make good choices so that I can enjoy the provision that God has for me in the kind of marriage he created, intended. So, yeah, I just think creating environments of conversation where people know our children know I'm someone they can talk to about the good and the bad, and that at the moment of engagement, I don't just step back and then hope they figure it out. Because honestly, a lot of those young people then are turning to the Internet and advice columns and having to read up on sexual tips from, you know, magazines versus, like, well, why can't an educated parent who loves them talk a little bit about some strategies and like, here's what makes for good physical intimacy. I think if that kind of conversation, we saw that as more spiritual, that that's part of discipleship, like that would go a long ways to helping people fall into this myth and then get disillusioned or disappointed when their marriage didn't make everything better like they thought it would. So, yeah, just creating those environments I think is huge.

Totally. I think the only thing I'd add is hot take. Stop putting marriage on a pedestal. From a church perspective that it is like the culmination of becoming a Christian and the peak and the pinnacle and whatever. It's like, you know, I think about what Paul said, that like don't get married, it makes life a little bit simpler. You can maybe be more effective in ministry. Not to diminish at all the beauty. I mean, it's the picture of the relationship of Christ and the church in scripture. So obviously God values marriage significantly. But I think that in our overemphasis on marriage, it can set single people up to think that it is the solution to many of our problems. And so I think that that's just a practical way, you know, to have single people minded, you know, like, be that, have that be something that you're mindful of in your communication. Yeah, I just think not putting it on a pedestal could also be pretty helpful. Guys, from our conversation, and I know from all of our stories, this is absolutely a myth. Marriage does not solve this problem. And we because of that have groups and resources and counseling available because that's part of getting healthy in this area. And so I just, I'm thinking that maybe someone shared this, you know, episode with you, you're watching it or you're listening to it and to just say like, if that's where you're at, if you've been believing this myth and you know, are disillusioned with marriage, or maybe you're single and you're like, hold on, I thought this was how it was going to be. Maybe it's time to start your recovery journey and just recommend you go to our website, PureDesire.org and start that journey today. If you're single, if you're married, you are not going to regret the effort that you put into this process. And please, we ask you to be someone who doesn't perpetuate this myth and continue to push it forward because there are generations of people behind us. My four year old, Brooks needs to know marriage is not going to solve all of his problems. So Ty, thanks for your time. Time, man. We always appreciate having you. Not just your wisdom, but the clinical expertise that you have, too. So appreciate you, man.

Thank you, Trevor. Always appreciate the invite. And I know it's a good conversation when I drop a chair.

That's true.

Us, too.

That is true. I'll make sure. Yeah, just make sure you share it with Sherry. I want her to, like, see, like, look, babe, I cried over our relationship. All right, if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our group's resources or counseling, go to our website, PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.