347 - Living UnDEFILED w/ Matt McCaulley & Kevin Whisman

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello. Hello.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 347 of the Pure Desire Podcast here. Joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Here's the pitch. There's a drive, deep center field, going, going, gone. A home run.

Okay, so let's just get to it. I mean, that's any announcer from any level of baseball where home runs are hit. Today is an episode that we did with Matt McCully and Kevin Wisman, who are the director and the producer and actually writer of a film that we have partnered with called Undefiled. And we partnered with them in some unique ways as a follow up to this film. And so we had them on today to talk about the study we did together called Living Undefiled.

Yeah, so, you know, baseball's a great sport, great sport. It's a sport that you and I both love. And it's definitely the theme of the movie. And so then we incorporated that into the, the follow up study as well. But what I like about the imagery too of baseball is, you know, so much of baseball is a percentages game. You know, if you bat.300, if you get three hits out of every 10, you're a potential hall of Famer. Like, that's really, really good. And not everybody gets a hit every time. And I think the film, as you're going to hear about today, a lot of it revolves around drawing some connections between these two themes of pornography and sexual brokenness. And then the social issue of human trafficking, and in particular sex trafficking and the vulnerability of women and children to sex trafficking. And I think in our culture, and maybe especially in church culture, we really like to keep those separate and think there's no connection, there's no relationship. But just like when a pitcher throws a ball, if a batter swings enough, sooner or later he makes contact. And there's an imagery there that not every guy who struggles with sexual addiction or pornography is going to end up becoming engaged in sex trafficking and buying sex, but some do. There is a percentage. There's a link that of those who struggle, this is a progression that happens. And if we really want to combat what's happening in our world as a society with sex trafficking, we have to be able to look at the roots of it that really come back to pornography and just the sexual desires of men. And that's not to stereotype it, but to say that that is an area in our culture where the percentage of women who are buying sex or engaging in sex trafficking as the buyer is infinitesimally small. It is men who are the buyers. And if we want to stop sex trafficking, we need to help men get healthy. And I think that's really what this film is meant to depict, is all the connections. And then our follow up study is to just get people thinking through how do we begin taking steps, whether it's healing ourselves, healing people in our community, being a part of culture change, just to create that conversation around some topics that are not easy to discuss. So if you like baseball, a lot of baseball theme in the movie, but it's a pretty serious topic that I hope really gets people thinking and I know they'll really enjoy getting to hear from our friends. We've really enjoyed getting to know these guys and be a part of the whole process. They're deeply engaged in it and that's, I think what I admire is just their passion for this project and putting this message in front of more people. And so it's, I thought it was a really fun interview.

Yeah.

So let's get to it. Here's our time with Matt McCully and Kevin Wisman discussing their film Undefiled. Matt McCully, Kevin Wisman. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

Thank you, thank you. It's great to be here.

We have, we've had a relationship now for what, at least a year. How long has it been though? When did.

Several years.

You came. Yeah, you came to the summit a couple years ago and then. Yep. And so you guys have just done the small, like short term project only taken what, how many years has the project taken overall?

We're going on six, I think six years.

All right, cool.

Yeah.

So there's a film that's coming out you guys are a part of called Undefiled, coming out From Lie to Life Films, which we'll talk a little bit about today. Matt, you wrote and directed it. Kevin, you wrote on it as well, but produced. Did you write anything? Come on, man.

It would have been nothing without his.

Do you have an IMDb profile? It's the serious question.

I think I do, actually.

There you go. You absolutely wrote on it then. Fantastic. And then to add to that, we actually with you guys recorded a follow up series called Living Undefiled, which we'll talk a little bit about as well to this. And so we're gonna talk about the film, the messages in it, how individuals and churches can use the film to really start conversations and we'll talk about the themes and Everything. But then also talk about the follow up study and how people can use that to help in the areas we'll discuss today. But let's get this out of the gate. What is undefiled about. Give us the pitch for the film. You've been shopping it around, right for. Yeah. So this shouldn't be hard for you.

Yeah. You want the elevator pitch? Yeah, sure.

Give it to me.

The ten second. Yeah, we haven't actually done that since we were trying to raise money for it and that's been like what, five or six years ago. But essentially the, the short elevator pitch is that it is about a guy. Like all films, you know, you can say it's about a guy, right, that.

That there was a man.

Yeah, it was a man. That's right. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

It's about a guy who is a independent league baseball player. He's, he's aging, he struggles with addiction, he struggles with, you know, a checkered past. And through a very odd circumstance, he gets an opportunity to finally be in the major leagues, be in major league baseball. And unfortunately, he, in the midst of that, he discovers a team secret that's just so horrific he has to make some decisions. And one of those decisions could cost a young girl her life. And that all plays out in the film. The film is really, I would say, about the heart. It's about a person's heart and it's about the connection between porn and trafficking, which you don't see very often as well. So those are some of the major themes.

Anything to add?

No. He did a great job. I can't.

I mean, you wrote on it, so if you've got anything, he edits it.

All, you know, so it's great.

You know, I got to read this script as you were saying, I think like two and a half years ago or so. And, and I think what drew me in was what you just said. The connection between pornography use, sex trafficking, and how I've described it to people is that the main character is really passionate about making a difference in the world, doing something good to help someone else, while realizing he's battling with elements of the same thing that he's trying to fight against in the world. And that conundrum of, well, wait a minute, if I'm on some level veering into those same paths, who am I to help? And just the conflict that he faces in and with himself, I think is something that a lot of our audience can relate to because we do tend to feel passionate maybe about the things that have been our vices the very things that we've wrestled with, we are interested in seeing them eradicated in the world. But sometimes that means turning the mirror into our own life first. And so I think you get to see his struggle a lot. And I think that's what will help connect people to the movie is kind of watching the choices that he's faced with.

And I like that there's an exploration too of his family of origin and how that struggle plays out. Because it's not just this isolated aspect of life, but it plays out in all of his relationships, past and present.

Yeah, he's a very difficult past. And I think a lot of people are gonna relate to Mitch.

Mitch is his name.

Mitch is his name.

Mitch is the guy.

Mitch is the guy. That's right.

Yeah.

So it's not every day that someone decides to make a film along these lines. I mean, topics like sex trafficking, though thankfully are discussed more in our world, are still, you know, let's say, on the fringes of our society. I mean, for sure on the fringes of what most churches want to discuss and talk about. So where did this idea come from? And why did you feel like it was needed, a needed topic to address in a film?

So it started really for me in my own personal journey, but also in 2008 when an individual first came to me and said, I have a problem with pornography. And it was really my first introduction into anybody identifying it as a problem and getting to know that individual, getting to know the resources that were available at that time 15 years ago, realizing that there's a lot in this field of study now, and we're growing and there are more important things that are becoming available. But some of the things that were missing were things I felt specifically than for the church. A lot of the people that I had been meeting with over the years were in full time ministry and they were not addressing the problem within the church because they were dealing with the problem themselves. So I really was hoping to be able to come together, to be able to put a resource together that would just give people something to talk about to start the conversation.

Sure. And this movie will definitely give you something to talk about.

We hope so.

I mean, that's, you know, and I know we've talked about like Sound of Freedom and other films that have come out. This is a topic that it seems like. And what I actually love about the topic in general is it's something that not just the church seems passionate about, that this is a topic that can transcend just being in Christian circles. It is something that the world is also passionate about, or at least pockets of the world are passionate about. So, yeah, we're hoping that helps.

And didn't you say to me, kevin, and I hope this is true, because otherwise we might have to cut it out.

We'll just know. We'll quote him right now.

This is what you said. Didn't you say that the character in the movie, Mitch, is like a conglomeration of a lot of stories you've heard directly from people, like actual real life things that then were put into a caricature in the movie?

Yeah, yeah. Every bit of Mitch's story I've heard in some form or fashion from people that have been brave enough to come into the counseling office and have conversations.

With me, which, if you've struggled in this area at all, you will relate to an aspect of his story. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I imagine when you start writing and developing a film on this, you learn some things about, you know, there's research involved. Right. It's not just, I'm not an expert on sex trafficking, but I'm writing a movie, see what happens. Right? There's a little bit of learning and research involved. So what are some of the things you guys did learn about sex trafficking and its connection to sexual brokenness while writing the film?

Yeah, I think, you know, Kevin, when he and I first started, every week, maybe we had coffee there for a couple months. And a lot of that was you teaching me, you know, about the cycle of shame and things that I had never heard before. And, you know, I. I learned a lot through that. But as he did that, I started talking to people in the film industry, you know, what they thought about this subject. And, you know, we had a producer, one producer, who said, you'll never make a movie about that subject ever. Don't. Just don't stay away. Go, run.

Wow.

We had.

Hopefully he's listening right now.

No names.

He did it.

But, you know, and I had another person who told me, who was also in the industry, who said, I don't understand why you're making a movie about that. It's not a big deal. There's nothing there. You know, and those things actually motivated me, like, okay, we need to dig into this.

I think in the world of sex trafficking, that was one of the things that was, again, coming into my office. I had people that I was working with that were actually in the field of rescue and the impact that that was even having on their families as they were doing the rescue work and then getting to know Some of those individuals that actually had been rescued and hearing their stories and my heart began to change. Not just for, you know, men that were dealing with it, but then even, oddly enough of the people that were actually doing the trafficking. Because when you get to know the people that are doing the trafficking of like man, stories matter and our stories matter and, and being able to learn about that and then to even just the stories that come from all of that. As you're talking with people that Matt was able to work into the script.

Kevin set us up early on. That's been quite early on, I think, with to talk to a real life trafficking survivor. And that blew me like that blew the doors off of my mind. You see movies and you see things and everything's kind of, for lack of a better term, cliche. There's the white van and all kind of stuff. And her story was not that at all. You know, she was kind of wooed by some guy that was like a boyfriend and bought her things, made her feel good, eventually reeled her in, got her on drugs and it's the end of the story. And that's the way it happens, it seems like most often. And I didn't realize any of that.

Yeah, that was one of the things I really enjoyed about getting to work alongside you guys on the follow up study. Because, you know, obviously Pure Desire focuses on sexual brokenness and addiction and pornography use and all the things related to that. But sex trafficking isn't necessarily a topic we've delved into a lot. And so for the follow up study to be able to meet and interview, you know, I think of two people in particular in the study. People hear from a trafficking survivor and hearing in her story that a lot of it was as an adult. Because I, I think we tend to think about sex trafficking victims often as minors and that certainly can be the case. But in those situations it's like, well, that the issue is that they're powerless, so we've got to help rescue them. But if an adult is in that situation, they're probably doing it by choice. It's like a lifestyle they've gotten into. But to hear her story, she was, I feel, just as much trapped as an adult as she would have been had she been a child. That there were systems put in place that really kept her enslaved and not able to just walk away from it because one day she decided there was a better life for. And so I think that was helpful to realize this. This isn't just kids that we need to protect, which we absolutely do, but that there's also adults that have gotten caught up in something that they don't really know how to extricate themselves from unless others come alongside. And that led to one of the other conversations was with someone from the national center on sexual exploitation, Dr. Michael Shively. And hearing him talk about. And I don't know how much of this we put in the film. It was maybe even more the conversations I had with him leading up to and on the side. He's a very talkative fellow who would like to share his passions, how important legislation is in this area to really understand what's going on, how sex trafficking organizations, and what's sad to realize is they have a lot of money. And if you have a lot of money, you can apply a lot of pressure to political systems. And especially maybe in smaller communities or states that are a little more off the radar, they are very actively working to try to decriminalize prostitution in a way that would actually open the door for them as pimps and traffickers. And. And we hear some of it like, oh, yeah, we need to make sure that these women or children caught up in it aren't punished. And that's absolutely true, but that's just the vein they're putting it under so that what you don't realize, it's actually just going to remove all the barriers and make it much, much easier for them to suck in vulnerable people, really enslave them in trafficking and profit from them. And so I think that's one of my hopes is I do feel in the church there's thankfully a heart and a sentiment to battle trafficking. And we tend to think of the individual, which is important, but also to think through. There are legislative things happening right now, even at the city council level, because what they're trying to do, and just to say this quickly, like, they try to get some laws passed at a city council level, because then they can go to the county and the state and say, well, look, you've already got these cities that have passed it. It's no big deal. It's happening all around the state. Just pass it at a state level. And so pretty soon something that we think, well, that's just, you know, that's never going to be a thing in my state. Like, well, it might be. And so I think to get educated in this area, it's eye opening. And you realize, man, there. There's a lot happening and there's a lot we can do to be a part of making a difference.

I think one of the Things too, after, like watching the film, being a part of the study and even having follow up conversations is that no one wakes up one day and is like, I want to be a trafficker. Like, that's not something that happens overnight. And that's one of the things I think is important is, you know, Mitch in his journey gets to the point where that could very well happen in his story. Like he's close enough based on past decisions to make that happen in his life. And so I think that that's an important thing. I mean, I love story and, you know, film and all of that. And so for me, I nerd out on like, there has to be a progression of that character. But that's also how it happens in life, that you make decisions that create this pattern that then turn into this big thing too. And so I like seeing the connection there, that it's not just these evil people who it was their dream to become a trafficker. It's brokenness after brokenness after brokenness that leads someone there.

Yeah. And I think we follow actually three characters. You know, there's the main character, Mitch, but there's also two other guys. And you see a parallel. They're all at different point along that spectrum that you're talking about. And you know, without getting too much away, you know, that you can see, well, this guy's a little further than this guy and this guy's almost, you know, all the way to the end. So.

Yeah, yeah. So don't give too much away. But let's talk about kind of the film from a broader perspective. What do you hope when people watch this, what do you hope they take away from it?

Yeah.

For me, it's really. Since Kevin and I started the whole thing, started all the talks, you know, we were as a production company looking for something that, yes, we want to entertain. That's great. But we want something that is going to stir people up in a sense. And you know, through that stirring is when change start, the door opens for change.

Yeah.

And that was our main goal. And so, yeah, it's entertaining. We want to make something that's fun to watch and good to watch, but at the same time kind of open that door to discussions and change. And that's what we wanted.

Yeah, absolutely. Conversation is really what I want to be able to have with people. So my hope is conversation will come from this. And through conversation then is the education because you don't realize it's the condition of our hearts. And when our hearts are broken, we go to broken places and we hide there. And my desire is just to bring more people into the light. And the only way we can do that is by offering them some type of invitation. So my hope is that Undefiled will be an invitation to bring people further into the light.

Yeah. When I think about our involvement, you know, as great as the Sound of Freedom movie was, I think for some people it does further a perception that this is happening over there somewhere else. Foreign countries, vulnerable populations, and yes, we should be passionate about it, but almost leaves people thinking, well, thank goodness that doesn't happen here. And what this movie I think does is create some reality of this is kind of a thing that can happen anywhere. And when you see this story, it's like, oh, maybe that is happening in my minor league baseball team that happens to be in the city I live close to. Or these kinds of things are normalized here in America. And if we can begin to embrace that idea, then I think we can have the conversations. Our eyes are open. We say, it's not just over there, it's here too. And maybe it looks different than it might in a foreign country, but it is happening. And it's happening often right in our cities, under our noses, in places we might not even expect. But if we start to have that awareness, then we can have the conversations that lead to change and being proactive in this area.

Yeah. So it's again, just to recap, it's not every day someone's like, I want to write a film on sex trafficking and then spend however many thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to then produce it and do all of. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, I could go on. I didn't want to tell you how much, tell everyone how much you budgeted. But it's also not super common and we see it from time to time, but it's not common for a film to then also spend probably more just thousands of dollars on doing a follow up study for that. What was you guys heart behind that? I mean, what was the focus and the hope for that too?

It was from the start. So if we were to go back to the very beginning of this little coffee shop that Matt and I would meet in, in the very beginning, I was wanting to be able to have some resources available for people to be able to be educated and to grow and to lead them on a healing path. And it was Matt's idea of like, hey, maybe we could do it this way. We could get more eyes on it.

Spent thousands of dollars, even more hours.

Thousands and thousands.

And I don't know if you've ever had coffee late in the afternoon.

The more coffee we had, the more thousands gained.

Yeah, it just grew and grew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was actually a part of the plan from the very beginning, is wanting to be able to make it as accessible to anybody and everybody as possible.

Yeah. We actually started coming up, we came up with the idea of a funnel. If you look at a funnel, you know, you have a wide end at the top and you have a narrow end at the bottom. And you know that bottom end is where these resources are and where Pure Desire, you know, all their resources and their knowledge and their expertise are. But we need something big and wide at the top to funnel people into where they need to be. And that's the way we saw the film. But like Kevin said, the whole purpose of that was to get them to those resources.

I'll share a funny story with that. I think too, of like, it was the podcast that you guys had did or completed with Jenna Remorsema. Yeah, I had just watched that then too. And I'd reached out then to Jenna and just like, hey, we're working on.

This project, Internal Family Systems.

It was, yes. And it was her then that led me me to you guys. Because in the beginning I was like, oh, no, I can do this. I can create all these resources. We can get this information out. It's like, man, I had no idea how much help we would actually need. So it's funny story.

Yeah. And I think you brought up, Matt, that funnel idea in our first conversation. And I think that's really what appealed to us as a ministry and at Pure Desire was the feeling that it can be challenging to get churches, pastors, parents to open up the topic of sexuality, let alone pornography or the messiness of what's happening in our world with sex trafficking. And yet on the other side of the equation, people can watch a movie, and there's all kinds of movies out there and all kinds of topics, and it doesn't take a lot of mental energy to sit down and go, oh, let's check out this movie. And that thought of, what if we could get thousands and thousands of eyeballs after the thousands and thousands of dollars, if we can get them on a movie that just gets them thinking and gets that ball rolling to say, man, I feel like I don't know as much about this as I thought I did, maybe I should check out a little bit more. And so then having them take that next step into a pretty low bar video series that we created where we tried to keep the videos pretty straightforward, short enough in length that it's not going to occupy days to get through it and just gets you thinking even more. And to get then maybe someone through that to go, man, this is identifying with things in my life. I need to take the next step, whether it's helping others or, or getting in a group or going and talking to my church. And if we get people, I think that's the strategy here, that the more people we get to see the film to get into the top of the funnel, some, as the Lord leads are going to go through to the bottom of the funnel and end up in a group or in counseling or seeking help for their own story or for someone they love. And to me that's a win. That's what we're after. And so if we can get, like I said, as many possible into the top, I just know statistically will get people that are actually taking steps now. Will everyone who sees a movie do something about it? No. I mean I'm sure there'll be.

And they'll be plenty of people heavily judged.

Yeah. That watch movie and they're like, oh, what's on next? Turn the channel. But for others it might be that spark or that idea that gets them to finally step into something that perhaps they've been avoiding.

Yeah. And creativity and story is able to like sneak in past any defenses where if you hear, oh, there's this study on how sex trafficking ties to pornography, it's like, well, that doesn't really sound interesting to me, but a story could draw you in for sure.

Absolutely.

We've partnered together to create a follow up film study called the Living Undefiled series. What are some of the topics or themes that the study covers? What can people expect as they move maybe from the movie into the follow up study?

Yeah, I think one of the things that the film touches on pretty well but needs more explanation via the follow up study is the connection between pornography, sex trafficking and all that entails and just how the human, how the heart and your heart condition can lead there and can progress to that point. And I think the follow up study does an amazing job of that with interviews, as you said, through, you know, from an ex porn star, from a sex trafficking victim and others and so.

And even these community agencies then too. That's one of the things I was excited about actually. And I hadn't had that part in the vision of being able to, okay, so maybe this isn't your battle, your struggle, but you know someone or you love someone that does. And like, what can you begin to do? And what can you begin to do at a community level? What can you begin to do as a city, as a church, as a civil organization? How can we stand up, be able to help people, but help rescue people?

Yeah, because we also had Dr. John Fobert on there and you already talked about Dr. Shively as well. And listening to them was incredible. Like hearing them not just because hearing the story from the former porn performer and the traffic survivor, those were, I mean, soul crushing and really, really powerful. But also hearing the research side was so interesting and I feel like that's what makes this study really, really well done is because it is that balanced approach. I would also mention that we were at Luther Williams Field, which is like what, the second oldest major league stadium. Kev, you, me and Nick, we played catch on the field that Jackie Robinson played catch on and Ted Williams and Pete Rose. And so as baseball fans, we kind of geeked out on that too.

I committed several errors just like people on the field had done.

We tried to play catch.

Right.

Oh my gosh.

Oh, overthrew the first baseman again. Sorry, Trevor.

Oh, we didn't, did we put that in there? We had to put that in a study. Right.

I think the follow up study does it personalizes it. Because when you see a movie there can be a temptation to go, oh, this is just a story, it's not real. But then you hear from the sex trafficking survivor and the ex porn star and the activists that are working to end sex trafficking, it's like. And then you hear our stories and it creates, I hope that bridge for people to see this is something happening. And now I understand my place in the story. And I think with that you called it soul crushing to hear their stories. I would also add, I think, very soul uplifting, 100%. Because the survivor, the former porn star, both have a pretty incredible story of redemption, of how different life is now that God's been at work and the ways that community has changed their life. And so I think that's what will motivate people to move forward, to say, man, if change is happening in these extreme stories, why not in my life as well? I think it'll also really help people unpack some of the themes that we talk about quite a bit at Pure Desire. But for those that maybe are just seeing a movie like this for the first time, making some connections between family of origin issues or past traumas and their current problems and seeing how all that fits together, having kind of an understanding of our brain and how sex impacts the brain and leads into some of these patterns. And then just understanding the message and the power of shame, that often just kind of goes. It's an under the radar kind of thing where people can carry the shame of what they've done, how they feel about themselves. And until we're able to surface it and put into words what we're feeling, it can continue to kind of subvert or really damage someone's life. And so I think seeing shame and what's happening are just some of the really powerful themes people are going to encounter through the video series.

Yeah. And just for information for those listening, Nick, myself, Ashley Jamison and Heather Kolb were the primary teachers on that. And so this is very much up bar. I mean, you were, you were, you were interviewed. Can you believe we called you an expert?

Just kidding. He had some great content that was.

And you were also wearing a puffy vest in like 100 degree heat. I just did not under. You were in a sweatshirt, too. I did not know how you did it. The fact that you didn't sweat on the actual study is incredible. Anyways, we clearly had a good time shooting it and it was a lot of fun and it is great content. What are you hoping, like, how can churches, individuals use the film? And then that funnel of the Living Undefiled series, what are your hopes that churches would do in using that? Like, think of, like, how would they use it? And then what are the outcomes you hope to see in those communities?

I think I would love to see Undefiled weekends or Living Undefiled weekends. And I think the film itself would be a great intro to that. So we have a Friday night film watching everybody come. And it's really. I don't think it's officially rated yet, but anybody of any age, I think, could watch it and be totally fine with it, of being able to watch it. And then that leads into further conversations that would lead into the material then of life group studies. I think it could even be a series that churches could host and sponsor. That's how I would really. Now give me a little bit more coffee and I can come up with even greater dreams.

I could see, like canvassing the neighborhood, you know, on a Thursday or a Friday, you know, showing the film on Saturday and just being a great kickoff for maybe a church that doesn't necessarily have an easy time talking. This is just an easy invitation for them to talk through the subject.

Yeah. You know, Kevin said, anyone of any age, I would clarify. I wouldn't call It a family film.

That's why you're not in charge of ratings.

There are definitely some mature themes not presented in a graphic way or explicit or, you know, there's not language and violence.

It.

So it's not that. But there are questions that if your kids haven't been exposed to much or had many of those conversations at home, it's definitely going to create them. So just be aware of that with grade school age kids and below, obviously that they may be a little confused by some of it. But if you've got kids that are watching the average PG13 movie today, there's absolutely nothing that's going to be introduced there that isn't fairly commonplace I think in some movies. So that to me is to answer the question as I see it, I think to have churches use it to start the conversation and we've talked about it a lot, that it is hard to announce anything to do with sexuality and not have people go put up the walls and whoop, I gotta mow the lawn that night. Or we're busy because it feels maybe too personal. But I think if it's a movie where it's like here we're just gonna watch a movie and this is a movie night, it's for anyone that wants to come, anyone that wants to, you know, maybe have some great conversation, be really intrigued by something they hear about and learn about, just come watch the movie. That's it feels to me like again that funnel or that low bar of entrance to go, let's just come and watch and see what God does from there. That you may not, you know, as some leaders hear about the follow up film study and then funneling that into pure desire groups. I mean that's a whole system that we can absolutely help a church that's ready to implement a ministry and to help men and women in this area. I mean that's what pure desire does and that's what the film is intended to lead people into. But if you're not doing much that can feel like that's like going from 0 to 60 in one second. Like hold, like hold the fort here. And if that's where you're at, that to me is the value of the movie. Like just plan a movie night or at one of your next men's events just say we're going to watch this film. Or when you're taking people on a retreat, spend one of the afternoons and watch the film. And if you have no other plans to use it beyond that, at least you're starting the conversation. And maybe even for you, it's by the end of the movie that you decide, you know what? We do want to take some people through this living undefiled study. We're going to start a couple of small groups. I mean, I think that's the vision I have, is maybe using the funnel illustration, a large number of people watch the film and at the end you offer say, hey, for any that are interested, we're going to do some living undefiled groups. Maybe you do one for women and one for men so that, you know, genders can talk a little more deeply along the lines of things that are specific to them. And then out of that, you might look to have a few recovery, those long term groups starting your church. So even as we talked about, you know, the film itself being a funnel, it can be within your own church, a way to funnel people into a significant recovery ministry. And again, so the more people you can get into the room or the auditorium or to the park or wherever you're going to show it, you have the opportunity then that some will be ready. Now, will everyone who shows up and sits in a chair say, sign me up for the group? No, but we wouldn't expect that. But some will. And so if you do have a thought of, okay, coming out of this, we're going to launch a few living undefiled groups. You know, that's the next step. And then from there I think the Holy Spirit will lead you and it really could be a significant start of ministry in your church.

When we talk about it all the time on the podcast, that people have a hard time bringing the idea of pure desire groups to their church or their leaders, that feels like we have to create this program and start running it and all the work and hours that are involved. But this makes it like that bite sized, like here's a movie and then a follow up study. And that follow up study very much leads into, here's what you can do to help in this area. And so I think it also is a tool in the hands of a volunteer inside of a church that they can bring this sort of thing to their leadership. And that's more plug and play from the beginning.

Yeah, absolutely.

So what are ways that people can be in touch with what's happening with the film, get updates, stream it, or stay in touch with Light of Life films and other projects that you guys might be working on?

Yeah, great question. The release date for the film is coming very quickly and so stay tuned to that. I think you can probably get that information through Pure Desire.

We will have it on the show. Notes.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And definitely. So stay in touch there. You can also go to lightoflifefilms.com and all that information will be there. Facebook. Facebook.com undefiled movie. Great place. And all the information of how to get the film in your hands will be there.

Yep. And we'll put the trailer on there if you want to share it. There's gonna be a lot. Definitely there, guys. I know. Six years. It's a long time. That's a long time to do anything. Been parenting for six years. And gosh, that's so. I can't imagine. And that's probably cost me thousands and thousands of dollars, too. But like, we. Our heart and our hope is that the Lord is going to use this film, that the f. Like the conversations you were having at the coffee shop. The Lord's using that. And that the Lord's going to use the writing and the actual production of it and then now the release to really start that conversation. What you were saying, Kev, that's really our hope, is that this will do that. And we appreciate you involving us, including us in that process, too, of trying to be that solution toward the bottom of the funnel for people, because we know a lot of people are hurting. And again, this topic is transcendent. A lot of people see it and want to help in the area and also know that one of the best ways you can is by working on your own sexual health. And so thank you so much for doing all the work. We didn't. We didn't really have to do any of the work for the film. So thanks for doing that and including us and for being with us today.

Appreciate it.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Thanks for having us. And thanks for being a part of it.

Yeah. Anytime you want us to go back to Luther Williams Field and make errors on the infield, I'm your guy.

Nick's your guy.

Nick's your guy.

That's right. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal, trauma. If you or someone you know needs recovery and healing, go to PureDesire.org and begin the journey today. If you like this episode or a fan of the podcast, please share it with others. Make sure to check out the full episode on YouTube as well. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

SA.