349 - PTSD & Betrayal

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello there. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 349 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

We all live in a yellow submarine.

Oh, wow.

A yellow submarine. The yellow submarine we. Sorry.

Is that the Beatles?

Yeah. You know, ironically, it is. Which even as I was singing it, I was thinking they wrote some really great music, and this is not one of them.

Honestly, it feels like the, like, theme song of a children's show.

It does. It's a little Sunday Schoolish. If you could work the Bible in there, it would be totally. The kind of song that I sang.

Before Sunday school Is a kid. The same, like, rhythm that you just sang it at is like, the wise man built his house.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

Yeah, that is good. That's funny, too, because my son, he goes to a private Christian school in first grade, and he comes home singing songs like that all of the time. And I'm just like, they still sing that in schools now.

It's crazy. Well, it's because the teachers did it when they were kids and they're trying to think, what could we do today? Like, hey, I've got this great song.

I'll teach the kids. Perpetual cycle of Christian songs.

Yeah.

Okay, so. And I don't want to say that we had, like, a sad or really, like, unfortunate conversation or anything like that. I just think that the topic today was a little bit more somber, a little bit, I think, more dense, maybe. We talked about. We had Heather Colbon to talk about the play between sexual betrayal, betrayal, trauma, and ptsd.

Yeah, and PTSD and trauma are. They're kind of a heavy topic, and the reasons that people experience them are typically because of very painful, hard things. And so I think today's episode really can give people an understanding of what PTSD might look at and what does hope look like, if that's what we're walking through. And to think of the intro, I thought about that. In my life, I can't think of anything much more traumatic than being on a yellow submarine, because I don't know if it would cause me ptsd, but it would definitely combine two of my fears, which is drowning in water and confined spaces. So to be in a really confined space underwater, I don't know how I would do. So, thankfully, as far as I understand my life, I've not battled ptsd. I mean, there's definitely Been some traumatic things, but have seen PTSD in people around me, and I know that it's a major deal. And I think today Heather just. She's a great guest. I mean, if our listeners know her, they love her. And I think she brought a lot of insight and hope today to this topic.

Yeah, for sure. It is a good conversation. And Heather was the right person to have it with, too. She did a lot of research and put some thought into it. So this is going to be a good conversation. If you're experiencing PTSD or have in the past, this is for you. And if you know someone who is experiencing it or has, this is also for you. So I think you are gonna enjoy the episode and our conversation. So let's get to it right now. Here is our time with Heather Kolb on betrayal and ptsd. Heather Kolb, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me back.

So this is a topic and a conversation that you and I had touched on. I wanna say. It was over a year ago. We'd had a conversation about this, about the connection between betrayal trauma and ptsd, the overlap, the. The interplay of these two things, how one can maybe affect the other. And so we're just gonna explore that experience today because our hope is that people who have experienced betrayal trauma can better understand are they experiencing PTSD and what to do with it? Because I think we know this now more than ever in our world. PTSD is a real thing. It isn't just when you go to war, this is what happens. And so I think it's something that we wanna have that conversation and help equip some people today. So, like I said, betrayal trauma, I think we hear a lot that it shares some similar components to PTSD or post traumatic stress disorder. But we want to flesh this out a little bit. So can you just kind of lay the groundwork? What is ptsd?

Sure. So PTSD is basically a disorder where a person has difficulty recovering after they have either experienced or witnessed a terrifying event. So think of it in the way that somebody has. There's an incident that happens, and because of that, they experience a dramatic shift in probably all aspects of their life. So physically, mentally, emotionally, all of it then becomes skewed because of this one event. And, you know, we talk about it a little bit, especially when we talk about betrayal trauma, but it really is something that's quite common in the U.S. in fact, they estimate that there are probably 3 million cases every year in the United States. So it really is something that's More.

Common than, I think, like, new cases. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. So it is. It's out there, and it's real, and it definitely impacts people's lives.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we're talking about the kind of events and. Or exposure to events that really our brains were just not designed to handle. And so the brain and body are internalizing some experiences in ways that we haven't always been taught well how to respond to it. And I know different people are impacted differently, and I think that's one of the things that in our society maybe makes some pockets more skeptical of it, because it's like, well, people might say, well, I went through something similar, and I'm fine. What's wrong with you? And I think in this area especially, we want to guard against trying to, as we've said on a lot of podcasts, you know, trying to judge or compare someone's trauma and say, well, that wasn't that bad. You should be okay, because really, we don't know their story. And I would. I would assume, Heather, that oftentimes PTSD can often be a result of the way it connects to. To past trauma, and it's kind of amplifying other feelings and emotions already present. And we just don't know what someone's going through. We don't know their past. We don't know the whole story. And so I think for the listener, that's maybe even as we get into this topic, like, oh, boy, here we go. Pts, Like, I've been through hard stuff, and I'm fine. Well, maybe you are, and we thank God for that. But that doesn't illegitimize or undercut what someone else may be going through. And that's the goal today, is just to really get into that more. So as we look at the topic, Heather, how would someone know if they're actually experiencing PTSD versus what we might classically just call trauma? And I know PTSD is like an elevated form of trauma, so how could someone know if they're reacting to trauma to that level? What symptoms would they look for?

So some of the symptoms can be immediate, and then there's. Some can be delayed. And I think that a lot of that is environment and what's happening in their brain that is gonna determine whether or not they have this early onset of these kind of behaviors or if it's something that ends up showing up later. But there's actually a lot of symptoms that someone can experience. And in our New Betrayal and Beyond, in chapter two, we cover a lot of this In a lot of depth, which might be helpful to somebody. But some symptoms are intrusive thoughts, reliving the event, having recurring nightmares, either of the event or just nightmares in general, emotional distress, being disengaged or isolating in a way that maybe the person didn't do before, um, less interest in activities or things that they used to enjoy, um, negative self talk or low self esteem, feeling numb, feeling helpless, um, and then even like behaviorally, sleep disturbances, insomnia, becoming hyper vigilant about everything, like looking for danger in your environment, having that be something that's content, um, constant, easily started, self destructive behaviors, trouble concentrating, irritable, angry, aggressive. And what you're looking for specifically is things that didn't either didn't exist in this person or didn't exist to this extent before this incident happened. So this is going to be something that is, that's new. Even if somebody maybe to some extent has maybe mood swings or something that is just part of their personality or part of their temperament, what you're looking for in these symptoms is something that is more extreme, that's more exaggerated, that didn't exist to the degree that it does now. And so I think that that is really an important clarifier. When we're looking at different symptoms.

One of the things I've seen play out. I don't know if I've had this personally in my life, but one of the things I've seen with some friends is something happens. And then even in circumstances that come up or difficult situations or conversations happen, this person now is overreacting or underreacting to a dramatic level in the sense of something awful happens and they just seem so calm and there's nothing almost, they become numb to that. And that's always something I look for, I think in myself. And then also it's funny, we were just in a meeting, the three of us actually this week where. And it wasn't ptsd, but it was this awareness of I am overreacting right now, what is happening. And I think what I'm imagining is someone who has ptsd, they're not actually able to think that clearly in that they get locked into those new kind of patterns or manifestations that you're talking about. But that's something that I think from the outside, you know, looking at someone else, that may be something to look at too, that they're either underreacting to a situation where it would usually, you know, be a much bigger reaction, or they're overreacting. This is not this big thing Normally. And now it's this huge thing for this person. Yeah. Okay, so. And this, I think this is a good question too, because I think a lot of people do experience a lot of anxiety, whether it's a high or low grade. And I have people close to me who've experienced panic attacks. So how would a betrayed partner know if the anxiety they're feeling or maybe the panic attacks that they're experiencing are related to PTSD or a manifestation of it?

Yeah, that's a great question, because what you're looking for is time and severity. That's what I would say, is that if you have something, because it's very common for all of us to have something that happens and either something big or something small, and we react to it and we carry that for a little while, but it shouldn't necessarily be something that is impacting us to a degree that we can't function anymore. So what you're looking at is, is this starting to become a pervasive pattern of behavior? Meaning that this is starting, you know, we're on month three or month four and month five. And not only is there not any reprieve from the symptoms, but I'm getting worse, you know, that I can't sleep at night, I can't, you know, that's what you're looking for. Also. Are you getting to, I mean, are you getting better in some ways? Like maybe you might be getting better in certain ways, but then at nighttime you're still distressed or something like that. And so it really is, I think, looking at the difference between whether or not someone has just experienced trauma from betrayal or discovery or disclosure, all of that, and then actually it becoming something that would be diagnosed as post traumatic stress disorder.

That was something I had kind of a follow up question on, you know, the fact that it is a disorder, that means that it's something that like requires attention and treatment, whatever that may look like. Is that what makes post traumatic stress disorder an actual disorder? Is that like the frequency of how often that it happens or that it is consistent over a long period of time? Is that like basically help me understand what makes it a disorder itself and not just a response, a regular response to trauma? Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does make sense because you're looking at something that is to some degree didn't exist before the incident. So this wasn't a part of someone's world before that. But then also that it's totally dysregulating them and disrupting their ability to function as they did before this incident happened. And the nice thing, too, with some of these things, and there's a lot that goes into this, but when you have something like this, they. The possibility for treatment is there. You know what I mean? Cause there's a lot of people who experience various forms of ptsd and. And they go through a treatment plan and they have counseling and they come out the other side doing well, and they have tools and they have strategies and they can cope with life. And so then even when something else happens, they're not nearly gonna find themselves in that same place. And so I think that all of that kind of goes into this idea of that what makes this actually a disorder and something that we need to look at and take seriously, because it's not. It's not going to get better on its own without some form of intervention, if that makes sense.

So in regards to what we do and how we help people, discovery of pornography in a relationship, an affair, I mean, that always seems like it's very traumatic. There's a lot of things you've been talking about, and this is going a little off script here. When someone is in that discovery of what their spouse is doing, is it always causing ptsd, would you say frequently? Or is it. Is it only in rare cases? I know a lot of our listeners have been through discovery, and they're maybe right now asking, like, okay, was it ptsd or is it just. Well, that was extreme trauma, but we're moving forward. Like, what does. Just back to my question. I'd say, is discovery frequently leads to PTSD, or is it just really depend?

I am so glad that you asked this, because in Dr. Steffan's research that was published in 2006, her research showed that of the women who were in that study, that they experienced almost the entire criteria for diagnosing PTSD following disclosure or discovery, and that was 70%, almost 70% of those women in the study had. Could meet the criteria for ptsd. And so I just think that that is really telling about the impact of. Of how discovery and disclosure and that whole process of betrayal impacts the partner. But I also think that it's probable that those numbers are underreported, even so, because I think that we just are not. Even as a society, we don't pay a lot of attention to our mental health, and we tend to just do what we can do in survival mode and get through it and get to the other side and never think of it again. And so. But if you could even say that based on that research, that at almost 70%. It was like 69.9% of the women would have met the criteria for PTSD. That's amazing.

Yeah. And that's. I think what I was thinking through is I. There's probably both ends of the spectrum here that. And I know Dr. Steffens talks about this like, you don't want to force a woman, or a man, for that matter, into trauma recovery if they're not feeling traumatized.

Right.

Because for a certain percentage, and some of it may be denial and they're just not ready. But for others, it's like, you know, just their makeup, their background, how they view the world, how they view themselves, how they've learned to view sex. They're not traumatized by it, and their recovery or their couple journey forward will look very different. Now, I think a majority of spouses do feel some level of trauma, but I think the other end of the extreme is perhaps especially common for Christians, where we feel like, well, I'm not supposed to be this hurt, or I can't have a disorder because Jesus is the Prince of peace, and he promised if I cast my anxiety on him, he cares for me and he'll take it away. We can have a little bit of that magical thinking, which I don't want to discount that. I think sometimes God in the Holy Spirit in people's life can do that. Or we've had examples where people were in incredible trauma and then just have this overwhelming peace come over them and praise God for that experience. But I think it's in some ways normative that we can be experiencing some really heavy stuff, even to the level of ptsd. And we've got to make sure whether it's ourselves personally in our internal talk or if we're working or trying to help someone, that we don't get into that mode of downplaying everything of like, well, you should be okay. You've got faith, right? I mean, Jesus can overcome this. And just to point out, I think it's entirely possible to have strong faith in Christ, to believe that God heals, that he's my rock, he's my refuge, he's my salvation. All the wonderful things that the Bible says, we can believe those and be impacted by betrayal, trauma to the level it's creating ptsd, and that that shouldn't be a shaming thing. That shouldn't be a. There's something somehow defunct or wrong with me that I'm experiencing it to that level. It's one of those. And you guys know it's not a favorite phrase of Mine. But it seems to apply here, like, it is what it is. If you have all these symptoms, if your body and brain are reacting this way like it's ptsd. And let's not keep ourselves, as you said, as. Let's not keep ourselves from the care that's out there, from the pathways that are available to create traction here, because we're resistant to wanting that label or thinking that that somehow undermines our faith.

Yeah, it's good.

So as someone is processing this and we're thinking about ptsd, what. What might we look for in terms of behaviors? How does this come out in relationships? I mean, you talked about symptoms, but maybe symptoms are the first step, and then behaviors are the outcomes. So what might someone see in their behaviors if they're dealing with ptsd and in particular, what's happening in their relationships?

And this, I think, would be quite telling. Again, you're looking at an escalation in severity. So it might turn out to be something that, you know, your partner is angry and is disengaged. And those are all very normal things. But let's say that you leave the house in the morning, and your wife is sitting at the table and looking out the window, and you come home six hours later, and your wife is sitting at the table looking out the window. Something is wrong with that. You know, if you. If someone. If a partner has gotten to a place where they're just. They're numb and they're filled with hopelessness or, you know, and they can't even get out of their head enough to do the things that they normally have to do because they just are. Because their brain. The alarm in their brain is. Is going off, and they can't get past that something is wrong. Then that. That's not a normal behavior. Or. I've heard one person. They described it this way, that before discovery and disclosure, their wife was just super sweet and kind and this godly woman and, you know, and spoke nice things to everyone. And then after this, they started to see this change in this person to where, I mean, she was angry and she was yelling and she was using profanity and, I mean, things that this person had never done before. And even to the point where they described that. I couldn't believe the dark words coming out of her mouth. Okay, something is wrong. You know that if you notice that this extreme change in someone's behavior, then it's probably not just a normal trauma response that someone's gonna get over after a little bit of time has passed. That's not gonna be helpful. Does that make sense? And so, I mean those are just some of the things that you could experience. Or if they're going off and leaving the kids with somebody else all day, which they've never done before, and you don't know where they are, but they're at the local bar all day long, you know what I mean? And engaging in these self destructive behaviors and they never did that before. And so it's looking at those kind of things that even if those are happening early on, it's, it's good to get help early on, you know what I mean? Because it's only going to get more distracted.

Yeah. So one of the symptoms you mentioned, just to circle back to it about depression, because I think a lot of people that have experienced betrayal and realizing the relationship that they have, the marriage they have, isn't what they thought that feelings of depression, even periods of depression may be fairly common. So is depression, because that's, I think a big kind of deal in our society is depression very often like ptsd, like do they go hand in hand or is it possible that you could be dealing with depression because of the betrayal, but it's not at the level of ptsd. How would you help people think about depression as that kind of sign?

Yeah, so I think that it's very normal to experience depression after discovery or disclosure. In fact, even to be in a season of depression where maybe you don't necessarily the whole entire time like you're able to engage in your normal activities, but then when you're alone or when it gets quiet at night or you have this kind of, this background of depression going on in your head that nobody else sees back in. Right. I think that those all can be very, very common behaviors. Again, when it ends up going into like the PTSD arena is when you, when a person can't get out of that. Right. And so what you're looking for is something that is not just the common things, that of depression, the common symptoms of depression that a partner could experience after discovery or disclosure. But it's more of when you're getting into where are they depressed all day and it's coming out in their language and they're unable to function and take care of their normal things. And, and again, looking at it from a pervasive pattern of behavior, is this starting to become their norm or is this something that, okay, I see it showing up on Friday nights or at different times or specific times, but then it's not necessarily overwhelming their life, if that makes sense.

Because it Feels like you're talking about. The word that keeps coming to mind is just extreme, that there is an extreme reaction to this. There's an extreme difference in behavior. And I know you're going to love this question. And the people who nerd out on the brain stuff are also going to love it, which is many of us. But from a brain perspective, can you explain what parts of the brain are impacted and what PTSD does to our brain as far as how it functions?

Yeah. So this is going to really focus on the limbic system, which is funny to me because we. Not funny. Interesting to me because we talk about this in the context of addiction a lot. And so some of these terms are going to be familiar, but their function is going to look a little bit different. And so it mostly involves the amygdala, the hippocampus, and the prefrontal cortex. And what's gonna happen is that because basically when a partner has a disclosure, or goes through disclosure, has a discovery, any of those things, the amygdala is gonna signal that alarm, much like it does with our fight or flight response to danger. And so our amygdala activity is going to increase. And especially where it comes to, like, we've been talking about fear and anxiety and panic and some of these things that are going to kind of ramp us up a little bit. But the other thing that's going to happen is that the hippocampus, which is all about our memory formation and retention, that is going to decrease in its ability. And so then you're going to be, like, in this panic, alarmed state, but you're not going to be able to remember things. It's almost like the stress and there's. And this is very complex system. And so I'm only just giving you a little bit, but, you know, all of these things are gonna start happening that are going to decrease your memory, ramp up your emotional response to things, and then also because of that, it's gonna inhibit the connection that our limbic system has with our prefrontal cortex. So basically, our prefrontal cortex isn't going to be helping us. So our decision making, planning, impulse control, rational thought, all of those things aren't gonna be. That's not gonna be connected to what we're feeling now.

So are you saying that we are more often limbically responding when PTSD has impacted the brain? Is that what you're saying?

For sure. But even more so, because it's going to like, decrease our ability to create memory. It's gonna. Or to even Recall memory, which then gets a little bit murky, too, in this environment with the way that partners tend to think that, okay, well, now I'm going to, you know, discovery just happened, disclosure just happened, and I'm gonna rethink our entire relationship because now I think that everything that you've ever told me is a lie. Well, that's gonna get a little bit murky because your memory retention is inhibited in this process. And so, I mean, just to give you a little bit of an idea, but it really does have this huge impact on our brain and then physiologically too, with our cortisol levels and the way that stress. The stress of all of this impacts us. And sometimes partners can stay in this hyper vigilant, alarm going off state for quite some time. Yeah.

So it sounds like PTSD can look very different for different people. Because if it's kind of limbically driven, that fight, flight, or freeze. For some, PTSD could look very much like just totally shut down and withdrawn. For others, it could look very angry and just lashing out. And others, it may look like constantly running away, disappearing, you know, like you said, leaving the kids and just going to the bar. That those could all be, though, they look very different. Could all be how someone is dealing with ptsd. Is that accurate?

Yeah. And again, you're looking for behaviors that. That are going to. That are different than what hap. What existed before. You know what I mean? So even if you have, like, I can think of situations where maybe you have a person who, you know, they. They always speak their mind or they, you know, a partner, and then all of a sudden they're super quiet. Right. They have no opinions about anything. In fact, they start withdrawing and. And their favorite, you know, group that they love to go to every week, they stop going. You know what I mean? It's all of those things. But. But a lot of that is being controlled by what's going on in their brain.

Yeah. So when we talk about the limbic system, we often think of triggers and things that trigger that fight, flight, or freeze. What does that look like with ptsd? What are the kind of things that trigger ptsd? And is it the same as other trauma? Or are there kind of different ways that people may be triggered into really experiencing ptsd?

So I think that it has to do with the situation and the unique circumstances to what the person is dealing with. And that going to. That's always going to be a factor when we just talk about triggers in general. But I think that if you have something where. Let's say that your spouse would go on business trips and they had affairs during that time. Discovery and disclosure has happened, but yet their job is still requires them to travel a lot to where, you know, the partner can't see what they're doing or have any of control or whatever. That could be a huge trigger. But then if that is just keeps re recurring because it's almost like trauma builds on trauma, if so to speak, that then that could actually lend itself more to somebody experiencing the full criteria of ptsd, where maybe if the spouse says, you know what, I know this happened in my job, I'm gonna get a different job, I'm gonna stay at home, I'm gonna be home on weekends, I'm gonna do these things because I want to restore our relationship, then the likelihood that they're actually gonna end up in that PTSD pool is gonna be less likely. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Is there anything that increases symptoms? I mean, that's something to thinking about. Like maybe something triggers it and creates actually more trauma on top of the PTSD that already exists. Is that even a thing?

Yeah. And I think that that's sometimes what happens when we look at where they can say, okay, these are usually immediate responses. These are more delayed responses. And there can be a lot of overlap even with that. But let's say that you have a partner who discovery disclosure happens. The spouse is going to do all these things to change their behavior. They're going to work to restore the relationship. And. But then on the other side, you have another partner who their spouse has said they're gonna do these things, but they're really not doing. And then a few months later, they end up separated. And then a year later, they're divorced. And then in that time, something else happens. They lose a parent, something. You know what I mean? It just is when. I mean, a lot of times none of us can handle a lot of that at a time. Our ability, our capacity kind of goes.

Back to that stress index we've talked about before. Multiple factors, more layers to our trauma.

Yes. And so then you end up in this place that you. You're barely functioning. And it's not necessarily just because of this one incident, but then you've had all of this other fallout that has happened that really has just is. Is taxing your ability to function on a regular basis in a way that we weren't designed for. You know, does that answer that question?

Okay, so. And I'm excited about this one. Cause I'm sure there are plethora of Answers to this one. But why are some people like, you know, you think of caregivers, spouses, people who maybe are in positions of influence or authority, you know, or even just intimate relationships, the people that do things that cause PTSD or bring that about in someone. Why is there a resistance to admitting that I've caused PTSD or I have, you know, I'm the reason that my spouse is now reacting this way? What is that resistance? You know, and I think we can, you can look at this from so many different perspectives, like why in the church or why in marriages? But overall, for the perpetrator of the activity that caused the ptsd, what does that resistance come from?

I think it comes from probably a lot of different places. Historically, when we started using that terminology of post traumatic stress disorder, it was really applied to like military personnel and rape victims or people who had survived natural disaster. You know, these big once in a lifetime called it shell shock.

Right?

Yes, exactly right. These experiences that, that really we kind of put it in that. And especially because at the time those were the people that they did the research with. So that's where we get, you know, that was kind of the jumping off place for this diagnostic criteria or this mental health issue. And so. But then when they started opening that up to say, oh, and we even talk about this like with big T, little T trauma, you know, that those are all like these big one time life experiences, big T trauma. But then they started to recognize that, you know what the same thing can be happening for somebody who's experiencing maybe smaller forms of trauma. But it's not just a one time thing, but it's every single day. You know, it could be right. And so, or you know, like things that are happening in the family or abuse or even sexual abuse or these other things that maybe it's not the same as experiencing war or being raped or something else. But. But over time these are having the same impact on a person. And so I think that that's part of it is just looking at that historical piece and where this has come from. I also think that sometimes, because it's sometimes not absolutely clear and especially when people, and people don't necessarily just run to the doctor or they run to their mental health specialist saying, I'm having these things and I don't know how to deal with it, then I think sometimes we try to help ourselves, we try to get over it on ourselves, by ourselves. And so I think that that also plays a role in this. And also what we've already talked about is that you can have somebody who's extremely resilient. You know, that because of their life experiences, their temperament, everything else, that they might go through discovery or disclosure and it will impact them, but not nearly to the degree that it would somebody else. In fact, they might have this attitude that, okay, I'm going to lock arms with my husband and we're going to work on this together and we're going to get through this and life's going to be great and if it works, if that works for them, great. But for the majority of women who experience betrayal, trauma, it doesn't look like that for them. And so I think that that is part of the reason why, why people have a hard time and even spouses being able to recognize or own the fact that my behaviors created this in my spouse.

And that's what I was thinking about. There's two things that come to mind for me. Just like the struggler or the addict is battling minimization in their behavior, I think once it comes out and it's impacting people around them, there can be that same minimization of, I don't, I don't want to have to feel that I've caused this level of hurt to someone else. So it may be more a self protective measure where I'm trying to go, oh, well, it's not that bad, or you're overreacting or if you just unders like I remember I used those words for 10 years with my wife. If you just understood the reasons I struggle and that it's not about you, you wouldn't feel this way. Well, I was totally in the wrong. And as I look back, I realize it was because I didn't want to feel bad about causing that level of pain. So I think there may be a fear for spouses or others to let something be labeled PTSD because that feels serious. But maybe it is and maybe that's part of the sobering reality we need to face of man, my behavior can cause this much pain. I need to be a little more adamant about my recovery and protecting the heart of someone I've said I love and that I want to protect. So I think that's one side of it. I think on the church side, what can happen, there's a little bit of a resistance. We're fearful that people are going to blame bad behavior on a diagnosis like, oh, well, I have ptsd, I can't help it. And I think there are some abuses out there. There's cases of that. I mean, I recall as a pastor, I Was meeting with a, you know, saw a family before church and their two year old is just going crazy and they're like, oh well we can't really contain him, he has adhd. And I remember thinking like he's two. That's called being two. Like no two year old has attention. Like. And it really felt like they were using that as an excuse to not try to parent. Cause there was in my opin, you know, lack of parenting. But I use that illustration to say I think we get overly concerned about that, that oh well, if they have a diagnosis then they're just going to excuse bad behavior. And what I see in the vast majority of spouses and couples, especially as we're talking about betrayal and trauma recovery, like nobody wants to have ptsd, right? Like nobody wants to get to just be stuck in depression because I have ptsd. I think in the vast majority of cases there is a genuine recognition of something is going on deeply beyond my ability to seemingly recover from it. And it can very much be a cry for help or that realization, going back to my first illustration, that there's something very serious that's happened here. And I think it's actually an invitation to churches or to pastoral counselors that aren't real familiar with PTSD to say get educated, learn, grow in this. Because if someone is trying to express this is what I think I'm feeling, then we need to wake up to that reality and say, man, we've got to be more adept at being helpers then because this isn't just going to be read a couple of verses and God's peace will come over you and you'll be fine. It's like, no, there's more that has to happen. So I think it's just a willingness. The reason we don't do it is an unwillingness to face that reality. But what we need is that willingness to let this matter to the degree that we can help people engage in the recovery. That's necessary.

A follow up too to that one. There's so many follow up questions we have, which is that's just me. It's a great topic is, you know, cause you talked about earlier, you know, the example of, let's say I had sexual brokenness in my life, my spouse experienced betrayal, trauma, and I travel for my job. And one of the things that I can do to maybe help, you know, after discovery is to get a different job and to be home more often is that the only way that you can help someone who's experienced PTSD heal from that process or what else could it look like? How. What other ways could we help our betrayed partner or spouse recover from this? Heal from the PTSD of something that maybe we did that caused it?

And I know that we've talked about this before, that if you're the one that has caused harm, you might not be the best person to try and help them.

Would you say that again? I feel like it's important that people hear that.

Yeah.

That if you're the person who has caused harm, that you might not be the best person to offer help, especially initially. But I think there's other things that you can do. Like if it means that you make sure to, you know, have time with the kids so that your spouse can go to group or can go to counseling or can have time for self care. You know, all of those kind of things are important. That you're the one who, if you have older children, you know that you take the lead on telling them on disclosing to your kids, that you don't put that on your wife. Same with other family. You know that. That you own what you've done and. And that you're the one that communicates this in a healthy way to those who probably need to know in your life. You know, just those kind of things I think would be really helpful. I also want to say one other thing about the labeling because I know that in the. In a lot of arenas, mental health labeling is seen as kind of a negative thing. But I just want people to understand that if you don't accurately label something, you can't accurately treat it. And so those two things go together. And so there's a lot of times where people are misdiagnosed and they spend years on doing the wrong things that are not helpful and they wonder why they're not getting better. And so it really is not to label somebody, but to get an accurate diagnosis so that you can engage in the proper treatment is super helpful and important.

My mechanic didn't know what was wrong and was working on the part of my car that was working just for fine and then they ruin that by trying to work on it. Of course my car wouldn't run properly. So you can apply that principle across the board.

I think it's a good word that we want. The purpose of labeling something is so we know how to help and how to heal. Not to be a shame moniker of like you have this thing. And again, we at Pure Desire really try to avoid kind of that disease model idea of addiction or mental health things that says Like, I caught this. And we want to understand how it happened, that it's not something we just. That happened out of the blue. It's connected to our story and our relationships. And one of the things that came to mind for me about how we can help, because, Heather, you're spot on, that if we cause the pain, we in many cases won't have, at least initially, for sure, much of a role in helping. But I think we can provide time and money. In a lot of marriages, I think money is a concern of what they really need is weekly help with a professional counselor. And that costs money. And so if you're the spouse that caused it, you may need to say, whatever we need to do for you to meet with that counselor, I'm willing to make happen. And that might mean selling a boat or stopping golfing or getting rid of your hobby. And that's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's. No, that's entirely fair. It's entirely fair that if you cause pain that requires or necessitates your spouse receiving some professional help, that you limit anything else you would spend money on to show that I really want to help you recover. So go to that counselor. Providing time, as you said, for them to either go to their group or even. It may just be friendship of women, or if it's men in their life that are supportive, that are helpful or caring. And I just would say from personal experience, as we walk through our early years of recovery, for my wife, if I created space, like, no, go to that women's retreat. No, go out with those friends. Oh, our small group, women want to go do this thing. Go. And I didn't. You know, when we had small kids, I didn't love that. I would rather I didn't solo parent for those times, but I just over and over saw she'd come back with something new. And I'm not saying, like, it made it all better, but, like, oh, there'd be a little more energy, a little more spark, a little more life. And it was like, okay, that's so good for her to get out of here. Get away from me with helpful separation. And it does something to help her recover. And I don't. I don't know if my wife would say she ever had to the level of ptsd, but certainly trauma and serious trauma, and it was that freedom that I had given her. And I think in many relationships, a spouse is still concerned about, well, I don't want to make him mad. I don't want to spend our money. He complains he has to watch the kids. And if they're thinking that at all, like, well, your role is to alleviate those fears and say, whatever you need, whatever time I'm going to give it, you go, you don't need my permission. Let's just communicate on a plan that can make a real difference. So you might not be able to sit and talk them through it, but you could give them the time and resources to go talk through it with people that can really help.

And I can hear, you know, many people maybe on the front end of discovery, like, well, that's not fair. And it's like, well, sure, but it's also not fair that you had sexual brokenness in your life and it traumatized your spouse. You know, and so it's a really hard balance there because you don't want to say that in a shaming way, but you also need to address and accept that that is the reality of the situation. And if you want your spouse to heal, if you want your marriage to be restored, you have to do what it takes. And it takes doing that, taking responsibility. And that's part of the natural consequences that we talk about of what actually happened, is you're going to have to find new ways to prioritize your spouse and their healing. If you ever want your marriage to be restored, if you ever want to, you know, be put in a situation where you can prove, you know, the durability over time, it. It's just. It's a commitment.

So, Heather, this might be the million dollar question, and I'm sure we could take a whole nother podcast on it, but what could you kind of sketch out? What does it look like to heal, to walk a healing pathway with ptsd, and then, you know, add to that, how long does that healing journey take for most people?

Yeah, this is a great question, and I don't think that there's really one answer for this. I think that it tends to be very unique to somebody's situation. This is not a one size fits all process. And I just think that it really does depend, again, on what happened, what else is happening in your world and being able to, I don't know, monitor your behaviors and where you're going, you know, because if it's very severe and you have layers of trauma, it's gonna take longer. I remember this one woman, I don't think I'll ever forget her. We were at a conference, and the next session had already started, but we were still chatting, and she was just sharing a little bit about her story. And at one Point she stops, and she just looks right at me and she says, I shouldn't be feeling this way. I shouldn't be feeling this way. He's in group. He's doing great. It's been four years, and I can't sleep and I can't eat and I can't, you know, and she started listing all of these things, and then tears start coming out of her eyes, and it's, you know, and it's like, why? Why is that your mindset, that I shouldn't be feeling this way? You know, because if this is the reality that. That what's happened in your life and in your marriage, that this is how it's impacting you, yes, you should be feeling this way. It's okay for you to be feeling this way. And then making sure that if you're feeling this way, if it's been four years and you're feeling this way, then it might be time to try something different, you know, because I don't want another four years to go by and for you to still be feeling this way because then whatever you're doing now is not. Is not working or not working well enough to continue to move you toward life and health and engagement. And, you know, and so I think that that's really what it looks like, is that if I'm doing things and in the first year, I'm doing okay, but other things are significantly worse. I need to get some help. And I need to get help outside of what I'm doing right now. And I, you know, even just researching, doing a little bit of stuff for this. Some people say that if your symptoms are extreme, even for more than a month, that a month warrants you to go get some help, go have a conversation even with your doctor to say, is this normal? At what point should I be concerned about my level of depression or anxiety or panic attacks? Is it normal that I break down once a week? Is it normal that you know, and just to start that conversation or even have that conversation with the people in your group, you know, to say, this is really what I'm feeling, this is what I'm experiencing. And can you guys share with me if you think that these things are normal? And if not, then either what have you done to get help in this area? Because that can be really insightful sometimes, or what would you recommend are my next steps? Because we just wanna make sure that people aren't staying in the same situation and carrying the weight of everything that they're going through and not even, you know, not in Forward motion, but they're just kind of spinning in this one place, and they're staying there for years. That is not gonna benefit anybody, and it definitely is not gonna benefit their mental health. So that would be my thoughts on that question.

I was thinking about, Nick, what you were saying, that it's, you know, especially for the struggling or addicted spouse, it's like, well, can we just get over this already? And I think that this question, too, is one that a lot of struggling spouses ask. They're curious about this. And I think that there has to be a small shift in the perspective that it's not when will my spouse finally heal, but more focus on what progress are we currently making. Like, be diligent to. You know, you talk about on the betrayed partner side that pay attention to, like, how long the symptoms have been going on, and if something you're doing is not working, try something else. Go see a therapist. Go see someone who, you know, has expertise in betrayal, trauma, or go see if there's medication to help you get the manifestations down to a point where you can find a way to normalize. But I think on the struggling spouse, there has to be that shift that I'm not focused on when we will be done with this, but in what ways are we working toward improvement and identifying those things? And I think that would be super helpful. And maybe something practical is keeping a list of ways that you've seen. In the first couple of months, I saw this response from my spouse, but you know what? Today, there was a shift. There was a softness that I felt, or I didn't come in and see her sitting, looking out the window the same place I left her this morning, things like that, documenting that. Because if you can focus on that, I think that that's gonna serve you much better.

Yeah.

And in some ways, the answer to the question of how long does it take? Kind of relates to what steps are we taking, because as we've discussed in other episodes, time does not heal all wounds. And in fact, wounds that are unaddressed, time infects those wounds, and it can actually get worse. And so if our approach to trauma or PTSD is to just try to ignore it and hope it goes away, then this will probably be a really, really long process with very little progress. But if we're able to see, I need to reach out. I need to take some steps. And there's no one size fits all but that if we're proactively moving towards our healing, then that timeline can look very different. And for a Lot of our listeners, Heather, you probably allow them to take a deep breath and relax when you say there's no one size fits all because they're worried they're not doing the right things. But for others, you may cause a little anxiety when they're like, just give me the steps, give me five steps to healing. And I did have a few thoughts and I don't think they're strong, but I would just say consistent principles we've seen in recovery that are really helpful and three things that come to mind. And number one would be to seek professional help. That PTSD is really kind of a professional diagnosis in terms of people that have been trained to understand it, to see it and to work with it. And if you're just trying between you and your spouse to figure it out, or you and your sister or sister in law that you talk to a lot and they're not trained in that, hey, it's great you've got a friend, but you need someone that this is an area they've understood and worked with a lot of people. They're going to be able to really diagnose where you're at and what that pathway might look like for you. So in some way, shape or form, seek out professional help. Second, I would say educate yourself. If this podcast has kind of been eye opening for you on what PTSD is, and am I perhaps dealing with that more than I thought? Find some articles, find some books. Many times we've recommended the Body Keeps the Score. I know Bessel van der Kolk talks a lot about the impact of trauma and ptsd. And I think you could find some really good resources just to understand what is ptsd, what do medical doctors say about it, what do professional therapists say? And through that lens, begin to evaluate what you're facing. And then third, as we've just seen in all these areas, find support, find people in your world that are supportive of the process you're on, the journey that you're on without condemning, without shaming, without criticizing that they're for you and with you and they're in it. And if you don't have that, we really hope and believe a pure desire group could be that we hope that there may be women or men at your church that could be a part of that support structure. Because in anything, we're not made to do it alone. We're made for relationship. And it's in relationship that we're healed. And so I know for some PTSD and trauma is the very thing that makes us want to Withdraw and want nothing to do with people. And there are times I think that's okay. But somewhere in our rhythm, there have to be safe people that we're engaging with, because that we've just seen consistently as a part of what recovery looks like. So again, those aren't three steps. I would just say those are three principles that within someone's journey, we've consistently see be a part of their recovery and look for ways that you can do that.

Yeah, and those are good encouragements. And I think to kind of land the plane here of the conversation is just really exploring more of that. Like, what encouragements would we give to someone who has experienced betrayal, trauma from a sexual betrayal and is starting to wonder, is PTSD really a part of my story? Is that what I'm experiencing? What encouragement will we give them?

Yeah, I think that all those steps that you or principles that you gave, those are great. That's a good place to start. I think also having that level of awareness for ourselves, even though I know that early on in following discovery or disclosure, we might not even have that capacity. So also then to encourage the people who are helpers in this arena or even have friends who are going through this, to just be able to be the person who could say, you know what? I think you're struggling in this area. I think that. Or I've seen this in you. You seem to be more depressed than normal. Are you doing okay? And just have those conversations, you know, if you're a safe person in their life and to help them find that awareness, because again, they might not have the capacity to even recognize it. And then also I think be willing to go to a doctor or go to a mental health professional and just, you know, even just explore what that could look like for you. Because sometimes, especially with this kind of a situation, we can't find the solution. With the same brain that's creating all this distress in our lives, our brain won't be able to do it. We need somebody else's brain who's going to help us gain perspective and insight and understand why this is happening. And again, like you said, Nick, help us develop a path going forward. Because if we're going to rely on our own brain to fix this, it's not going to happen.

I think of the words Brennan Manning said, and he was an author who wrote extensively about his alcohol recovery and even wrote about some relapses. And he used a phrase once. I heard him say that today I will endeavor not to should on myself. I should. I should. And I think when we're dealing with trauma and ptsd, there can be some of that where, well, I should be better. I should be healing faster. I should be happier with my spouse. I should be more content with what God's like. And we do that. It's kind of that personal shaming and guilt trip that really, in the long run, won't help just to say, how can I be present where I'm at, accept reality and invite God to meet me there? And I think that's the other encouragement I would give, is just that thought that there is nothing you're going through that is outside of God's purview or understanding, and his heart for you is so constant. You know, the book of Hebrews says that we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but knows us, understands us in every way. And so I don't believe that Jesus, in his human experience, experienced ptsd, as we would call it, because of his also being fully God, fully man. But his ability to empathize and to know what we're going through is constant. It's there and it's true. And I think we just need to make sure we don't put ourselves in a place where we think, well, God's with other Christians or other believers, but what I'm going through, he doesn't get me. And he does. He gets what you're facing and feeling, and he knows the roots of it and the causes of it even better than you do. And really, he knows what healing looks like. And so I think coming to that place where we just say, God, I don't know what this looks like. I don't know how long it will take, but I trust that you're with me in it. And that can be sometimes the encouragement and hope we need just to keep taking that next step, even if we feel like it's just a little step forward. Knowing that we're not alone, that God is with us and strengthening us in it, I think can be a tremendous encouragement.

Yeah, I've heard an author say that God doesn't check in and out of our brokenness like a hotel, but he takes up permanent residence in it. And so that's really what we hope you got out of this conversation today is that the label of PTSD is not something that we want to use as a shaming tool or as something to make us feel like we're lesser than. I think, Heather, what you said earlier, it really is just to make sure that we're identifying where the problem is and getting the proper care where we need it. And again, if this is where you're at what Nick said, reach out to a professional, do some research online, equip yourself and don't keep this to yourself. This is something where you have to have community around you as a part of it. And if this is what you're experiencing, we feel for you. This is, as Nick said at the top, not something we were meant to experience in God's original design, but God does give us the tools and the people around us to be able to process through it. So this was a great conversation. Heather, I know you bringing this was a big thing and and I appreciate all the thought and research you put into it. Thanks for your time today.

Yeah, this is a good talk.

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