350 - Slippery Slopes

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Happy Tuesday, or whatever day it is for you. Just so you know, we release these on Tuesdays. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 350, wow. Of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Here we go.

God, that could be so many different. You said it, though. I don't know, because do you know where I go when I hear those three words?

Where you go? No, I don't know where you go.

I am transported to a Christopher Nolan movie where Heath Ledger is playing the joker and says that.

Oh, remember that? Yeah, vaguely. I think the original, or at least what comes to mind for me, and where I thought of it was Peter Pan. That when they all. When they all get ready to go to Neverland, you know, that's what he yells for Wendy and the kids. Here we go. And so it feels like, you know, anytime I've gone, like snow tubing or sledding in the mountains or skiing, like, that's the kind of thing you just have to yell at the start, like, here we go.

That's right.

And then, you know, off you go. So.

All right.

Yeah. Brings back, like, lots of fun memories of family stuff or jumping off a dock or going down a water tube slide. Yeah, you gotta yell out Peter Pan.

Nice. Okay, so. And in the last, like, stretch, you've done a couple, like, old school Disney movies. So I see where you're digging in a different way.

Not intentionally. I haven't been watching them or anything. Just maybe 350 episodes. We're digging deep.

We are digging deep into the Disney vault. All right. We had Ashley Jameson, our associate director of women's groups on, and we talked about the topic in recovery that, I mean, we basically describe it as just slippery slopes.

Yeah, you know, I noticed about that introduction. It actually sounds a little bit like an introduction to say here we go. Cause I was thinking about our early episodes, the way this all started. For those that are newer listeners to the podcast, I started out just saying, like, hi, hello. Hey. Yeah, howdy. And like, how many different variations of hello, you know, greetings could I do? And after about like 12 of those, I ran out and had to start getting creative and. But after 350, here you go is here we go is probably like, actually kind of something you might say to introduce yourself. But yeah, anyway, the whole idea of that slippery slope is there's kind of some tipping off points where we move from health into our old unhealthy patterns. Whether we've been the addict and struggler, or even if we're a betrayed spouse or just a caring family member, I think we all can look at patterns in our life where there's places we end up we don't want to go, we do things we wish we didn't do. And if we could track the pattern, there's entry points, there's starting places, where the initial step we take towards all of that unhealthy behavior usually isn't bad or evil or sinful in and of itself. But that's what makes it a danger, is that we might be ignoring what is a slippery slope, which is a consistent downfall into our pattern. And the further we go, the more speed we pick up. And so it can be in our unhealthy thinking, kind of a here we go moment. And if I take these steps, the next ones aren't far behind. And so today's episode is all about hopefully helping us develop wisdom and discernment around some of those more quote, unquote innocent choices that we make because we see them as part of the larger pattern. And then if we can see them as part of that, making some decisions about what we need in our life and what we don't so that we can be healthy and really continue to move towards recovery and restoring of relationships.

Yeah, this is a good conversation. I will say disclaimer. This is the fourth episode we recorded in one day, so give us some great.

But it was Ashley's first.

That's true.

She was on fire.

Lucky her.

But yeah.

Here's our time with Ashley Jameson on Slippery Slopes. Ashley Jameson, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

I am very happy to be here today.

It's awesome. I appreciate the natural light that you always have. Now we have some guests that I feel like they're recording from a cave and it's hard to see.

Tyler Jensen.

Yeah, we had our friend Tyler. He was kind of. He had an orangish glow. Of course, he's in Arizona, so it could just be how great his tan is. But he looked a little orange.

That's. That. That is true. And if you listen to that episode, I'm better yet if you watched it, he said that his couch is orange, but is it just because he's so used to seeing it on the filter of a screen on his computer? Anyways, let's not get too much into it. But Ashley, we are excited to have you and just, you know, as you could probably Already tell listener it is a Friday afternoon where we're at, so ye give us grace. Okay. Specifically this episode, we had a listener specifically ask Nick a question about stuff that you've talked about in your story, specifically how fantasy sports was one of the slippery slopes for you in your story. And the listener just wanted to have us unpack that. And I thought that it was a good idea to kind of use that as the topic of slippery slopes and try to figure out really where these are in our lives and how to be careful on the journey of healing and how to navigate all of these. So to kind of start, will you just kind of set the stage? Maybe people haven't listened to this, Nick, but you've mentioned fantasy sports being a slippery slope. Talk us through what that was like.

Yeah, I think the easiest way to kind of talk about that is to have in mind the faster scale. And I think a lot of our listeners are aware of that. But just in case you're not, you know, the faster scale is an acronym. It's an emotional inventory that we take on our way down to relapse, which is the R of faster. But the other acronym or the letters are forgetting priorities. A is anxiety. S is speeding up, T ticked off, E exhausted, and then our relapse. And one of the things we talk about that forgetting priorities is that first step away from trusting God and others, living in recovery, paying attention to my responsibilities and principles, and doing the things that God has called me to do. And so there's nothing wrong. I just want to say this. There's nothing wrong with enjoying sports or playing fantasy sports. But for me, that was very often the forgetting priority step because it meant that I was beginning to procrastinate. And I didn't know this in the moment. It was part of my recovery journey to realize that that would become something when there were difficult tasks in front of me, assignments that I didn't feel certain about, a phone call I needed to make that was making me a little anxious. It was easier to just go online and waste time on my fantasy football team, which was what was kind of funny about it to me. You know, football games happen once a week, or, I mean, now it's like four days a week. But in general, yeah, in general. You could go, in theory, set your team for the week and look at it one time and then just let your, you know, let it run. Players play. But I was multiple times a day going back to my team, reading up on. And some people do this, which, again, if you do it in A healthy way, it's fine. But I was spending inordinate amounts of time just kind of looking at my team, proposing trades, thinking about who's going to do well, reading up on the odds makers. And really it had become a way that I was avoiding things I needed to be doing, which then became part of my pattern that now I'm more anxious because I still haven't done the thing that I need to do. And then I would rely on enough anxiety to kick me into speeding up mode. And then that wouldn't work and I'd be ticked off. And it just became part of the progression, where very often as well, when you are on a slippery slope, it's a place where you tend to encounter triggers. And as you know, when you're playing fantasy sports, the things that can come up for advertisements that are directed towards men and their sentimentalities and the kind of things that are of interest to them, sooner or later there can tend to be some sexualized ads. And I would find that over the course maybe of several days or even several weeks, that that pattern would be what was taking me back into my old and addictive behavior. And so it was having a willingness to realize in and of itself fantasy football was not a bad thing. But for me, it had become part of my slide down the scale towards relapse, and it had become very predictable. It had been become part of that pattern. So for a number of years in my recovery, that was just an area of my life I had to eliminate because I had learned, as we've talked about in other podcasts, that that it's not that we need to fight our pattern or our behaviors at the end of the scale right before we're tempted to relapse. It's learning to not even get on that scale, to not even go down that path. And so for me, that was seeing this as one of my entry points. And if I block the entry point, I just don't go that way. And that was a much more successful strategy. So that's kind of the overview of what had gone on in my own story.

Yeah, that's good. And I think that's helpful too. Cause that gives us a framework as we continue through the conversation of maybe it isn't fantasy sports, but maybe there are other things that end up being that top line of us sliding down the scale.

Yes, we have a lot of listeners that might not relate to the fantasy football or sports illustration, but we know there are lots of ways that we all begin forgetting priorities, moving away from God and others. And can become part of our destructive pattern. So, Ashley, what are other examples or maybe types of slippery slope behaviors that you have seen either in your story or in the many, many women that you've had the opportunity to work with?

Well, this was a great handoff, Nick. How you spent you like that? I used to football puns.

Way to go.

I was like, wait, do you say pitch? Do you say you could? Okay.

They all probably would have worked.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. This is actually a great handoff because I was like, oh, I just jotted down things that have been a slippery slope for me. And some of them are surprising. So I'll just read a couple of them. Late night t. Watching TV alone, arousing or romantic novels, Going out dancing, club music. Sometimes saying like, oh, I'm just gonna stay late and watch a movie with him, but I'm not gonna do anything sexual. Have good boundaries. Video games. That's not mine. You know, that's not mine. But I hate it. So it made the list scrolling social media. Having just one drink. And then some interesting ones that I thought of. Like, I have encountered people who their relapse is isolation and it's really damaging to their family. And so even things nobody, like write me hate mail, like prayer could end up being like, anything can become too much if it's really actually separating you from loving others and growing closer to God. And so, you know, if we are doing things for ourself, even that are spiritual, but it's at the detriment of our family, of our relationships. Like, even that needs to become a check for me. I love researching. And so there's been times where, like you exactly what you described with fantasy football. When I'm supposed to be doing something else, I can go down a rabbit hole of researching. So one time in one of my unravel groups, it was like, I can have an hour of researching as a reward if I, you know, have done all the things for the day that I'm supposed to do. And then I can have this freedom and this piece to just sit and like, go down a rabbit hole of researching things. But other times it's been like, I walk away feeling really gross. And so I truly think that anything, anything can be a slippery slope. And I've had the casting crown song stuck in my head all day. You know the witch one, it's a slow fade. You know that one. And just like everywhere black and white turns to gray. I've been seeing it all day because of this episode that, you know, I think that is the trick of the enemy is to take something even that seems good and distract us from what is our best. And I think you can do that with anything.

Yeah, I think to clarify maybe at least my perspective on it is I think that it's anything that causes you to isolate. And as you were talking, Ashley, I thought without parameters or boundaries around it. So for me, there are times when I go home and I get home and I just want to change and relax and not necessarily need to play lightsabers with my kids the second I walk in the front door. And there are times where I find myself going back to my room and just like checking my email or doing something on my phone, mindless. And even that can be a slippery slope because if you look at it, it's a pattern of pulling myself away from relationship or from things maybe that even though I don't want to do, I probably should be doing at that time. And so I think it could be any. I mean social media, YouTube, you know, even work can be that for me. But being able to identify what are patterns or behaviors that I have that tend to pull me away, not in solitude where I'm doing it for the purpose to re engage, but I'm doing, I'm pulling away for the purpose to avoid and not be present in any moment. I think that those are the behaviors that I could identify as slippery slopes.

Yeah, I think what you're hearing is that for different people it can look different because for some people it's not isolating, it's actually the opposite. That they're choosing to be around people because the thing they should be doing, a work assignment, meditation and prayer is something they need to do alone. But they don't like to be alone. So they'd rather go out with their friends, they'd rather play video games online with people. They'd rather go and do something interactive. But that for them may actually be a part of moving away from God's priorities in their life for the things that they know they're being called to do. And I think again to come back to the faster scale. That's why in group a lot of times when people are like, oh, I don't really identify any behaviors, I will encourage them. We'll read through that whole list under forgetting priorities and tell me if any of those behaviors were true at any time during the week and when you start thinking through to read some of them. Secrets, less time and energy for God meetings or church, avoiding support and accountability people, superficial conversations, sarcasm, isolating changes in goals, obsessed with relationships, breaking promises and commitments, bored, overconfident, procrastination. So I think if you hear that list, we all start to go, oh well, I do some of those behaviors like every week. Right. Because it's not possible, I believe, if we're being fully honest, it's not possible to live 100% in restoration all week long. Because it's just our human nature to kind of lose focus, to drift towards other things. And it's just the key is seeing in my pattern, in my story, in my history, where has that consistently led to the next thing and then the next, and then the next. And whether it's with people or alone, whether it seems like a fun thing or a boring thing, like if it's part of my routine pattern, I need to identify this may be a slippery slope that takes me down to that next behavior and the next and the next that ultimately takes me where I don't want to go.

Yep.

Yeah. And I think that's why the title is Slippery Slopes because we don't always recognize it. And if you're looking at your three circles, sometimes somebody could look at something in the inner circle or the middle circle and think, well, that's not a bad thing. And that's why it is important to be in group. It is important to be doing your faster skill each week. It is important to be doing your thoughts and feelings awareness logs because then you're connecting the behaviors that can look pretty benign with the way you're feeling, with the way you're engaging relationship and seeing what it actually does for you. We're not talking about like cliffs, you know, like, okay, let's not invite third people into our relationship or watch porn. Like those are clearly cliffs. But yeah, the nuances, I think we, we need people. There was a time where John like he loves hiking. He does that for his job. He's a wildland firefighter. And there was a time we got in a argument because it was after relapse and I was like, go have some self care. Like you need some self care. And so he went on a hike and he came back. He's like, after however many decades of thinking hiking is his self care, he's like, I don't think that's, that was good for me. I think I need to be with somebody else because all I did was be in my head the whole time. And so it's like hiking is a self care activity for him, but that's not what he needed at that time. And so that's why? We need the group and we need people and we need outside perspective, too, to help us realize what we need in that moment. Yeah. So, moving along, how can we identify if something has become of kind of slippery slope for us? Is it obvious or could it be difficult to see at times? Yeah, I guess I can get started into that totally.

For me, it's finding behaviors that slide me into the matrix of addiction or really our pattern of addiction. And so if it is YouTube that leads to then cause for me, it usually started with social media, and then I got off for social media for a while, then I got back on, and then this is a timely episode. Cause it's like, well, I'm evaluating that social media isn't actually healthy for me and so needing to get back off of it. But knowing that it started with that. If there are behaviors that end up on a more consistent basis, sliding me to the top end of my matrix of addiction, that's a slippery slope. That's one that I need to be really, really careful and avoid and put either guardrails around or protection, like Internet protection, whatever it may be. I think that that's what's really important because as it slides me into that, what's kind of funny, and I've experienced this, is that I start to actually feel shame about those behav, even though they may not be, like, relapse itself. It's like I find, like, I want to be secretive about, like, how much I've been on YouTube and maybe I'm just watching, you know, the Manning cast, you know, on espn, like a recap of them doing Monday Night Football, like, there's nothing bad about that whatsoever. But if I start to feel like I need to be secretive and I'm starting to feel shame and I want to keep this to myself, like that for me, has become a really good indicator of. Okay, this is something I need to be much more careful with and is a slippery slope. Because if I'm not paying attention, it's going to put me back into my pattern of addiction, which then over time can lead to relapse. Yeah.

Yeah. Something I hear you saying there in these answers is like a good activity done at a bad time could be part of our slippery slope. So maybe watching the manning cast on YouTube is fine, but if you're doing it when your wife is expected, you're hanging out with the kids or when you're at work or something like that, not great for me, going for a run, that can be a good activity. But if I'm Doing it intentionally to avoid responsibility at home or not to interact with my family. A good activity done at a bad time can definitely be part of the slippery slope. I think these can be hard to identify because sometimes they are. I think almost all the things we're describing in and of themselves are not bad, wicked or evil. They're just behaviors. And in many contexts can have good outcomes or good roles in someone's life. And that's where we maybe haven't seen in our own pattern because we all tend to be a little blind to our self pattern that they're present there. That's why I think it's vitally important if you're in a recovery group, if you do have a relapse or even a lapse that you take some time to fill out, a crash analysis, which is just a really thorough kind of. Let's think through what happened. What were the preconditions? What have I been avoiding my group members? Have I been making my phone calls just to try to get you to look at the whole context of how did this happen? And then if you've done a few of those, being able to start to connect the dots and go, oh boy. I'm realizing for me in my first year of recovery, there was some real humility that I had to see about how often relapses were on Mondays, which is for people in full time ministry. Such a classic example of you're kind of spent and tired and worn out after the weekend and Mondays you're susceptible. And I had so isolated my behaviors, just bad choices that I hadn't even seen the pattern of how frequently this was happening. So I think that's where we need the involvement of others. One other tool I think that it's been helpful for people is to just try working backwards through a relapse or anywhere that you feel like you've gotten down into exhausted or just a place emotionally you don't want to be. It's kind of like, well, what happened before that? And asking, okay, so you saw that, well, what happened before that? And what about before that? And maybe you start to realize that the incidents that happen is tension in my family that makes me go into my bedroom and isolate on my phone and then I'm on social media or fantasy sports and then I'm taking the next step to inappropriate websites. Well, the starting point was actually tension with my family and escaping to my bedroom or the bathroom with my smartphone and then you go, oh, okay, now I'm starting to see that that slippery slope is Being in a room alone with my smartphone, because that's become part of how I'm reacting to tension around me.

Another thing too, to maybe help flesh this out too, is that it's not maybe that I go back and I'm on YouTube and then social media and then I'm on like that inappropriate site or looking at pornography or something like that. It could also look like I go back and I'm looking at YouTube and then I end up on social media and then I go back out to see my family. But then later that pattern's already started and it could be hours, it could be the next day or next few days in the week that that pattern didn't just stop. Like, unless I address and try to process that with somebody, that pattern's still going. And so maybe it doesn't happen in that moment, but relapse definitely is still something that could happen. I think that was a shift for me when I first started recovery was understanding that backtracking and trying to paint how I got there. Sometimes I had to look at a whole week or maybe even a two week period to understand what happened. Because our brain is able to keep that kind of information longer than we think.

Yeah. And I know for me, especially when I was single for several years, when I was living with the boys, being lonely was for sure like a slippery slope for me. Now I know that. I didn't know that then. It's like playing the whack a mole addiction game back then. But if I would have known then, I would have known. I need a lot of interaction so that I'm fulfilled, like emotionally and relationally with people. And so there's so much we can do. I just remember in those years, just like I have like tear soaked journals of like, why am I like this? Why am I so angry? Why am I. And to know now that there's so much you can do way, way, way ahead of time and that praying for the behavior to stop is just like beating yourself against a brick wall. You know that it really was. Oh, I needed more interaction with people that week. I needed some more as a single mom. I needed some downtime. I need my brain to be alone for a while or, or exercise or whatever it is. And then another thing I see that can be kind of common with moms, especially working moms, where we're very busy in a relapse or a regression. If you're using the betrayed spouse. What am I trying to say? If you're using the betrayed spouse, faster scale than regression, falling Back into that bottom where you didn't want to be again of like burnout, feeling abandoned, feeling in, you know, not valued. Yeah, we can do things that seem good too, like listening to podcasts, listening to books. And then it, it's the same I see with my husband with video games. Like when we disengage like that. It's not always a sexual relapse, but sometimes you, you, you unplug your, your podcast, you know, or your book that you're listening to because your family needs something and you're. Your 6 year old is asking you a normal question and then you like shoot him with daggers. And it's. And it causes us to keep in these cycles. And so that's why I think it's really good we're talking about this episode, that it can be good things. The same thing that self care can end up being a slippery slope for us if we're in a bad mental health space.

Right. Yeah. And I think that that's a good. And we'll move on to the next question. But just the recovery plans are not just to set it and forget it kind of thing. We always have to be constantly evaluating.

Yeah.

Okay. So once we've identified something as a potential slippery slope, what. And Nick, you were already talking about this, so maybe you can take this one first. Some of the tools we can use and practice and put in place.

Yeah. Some of this depends, you know, obviously on what the behavior is or what we're identifying because there's differing degrees to which we can address them. But, you know, many of them, if we're in that first season of recovery or season of life, we're establishing sobriety as a high need and not something we've done very well in the past. I think more often than not we're going to look at those slippery slope behaviors and say, for now, it's not worth it. I can't have it. So, you know, I didn't try to manage my fantasy sports better. There were years I did not have them. I had no teams, I was in no leagues. And even though there had been a fun, you know, that camaraderie that you can have with other, like at that time, other guys in the church that would be on the fantasy football league, it was just like, I don't know that I can be trusted with it. I think I'm needing to learn health and it's something. I don't need it in any way, shape or form to make my life better or to live to do my job. So I need to be willing to let that go. And so I think many of these, you might say this is just a new guardrail or boundary I have that I don't engage with it at all, at least for this season. And then like you said, over time, as we grow, as our relationships grow, as we change in the kind of self awareness of our pattern, there are some things that we may see. There's ways we can safely engage in an enjoyable activity without it becoming part of our slippery slope. But I think there are other things. Like you talk about isolation or going to your bedroom alone. Well, you can't have a boundary that says I never am in a room alone. So you may have to in other ways be creative to think about what are the elements that make that dangerous to me. So, you know, one of mine was being having my cell phone in a bedroom or bathroom alone. Like I just learned I leave my phone in the common areas of our house because that would make it then. So being in my bedroom or the bathroom alone was. It was not a danger. It was the combination of things. So I think it's just looking at the behavior and saying, what do I need to do? Especially in this season, if this has been part of my pattern to just eliminate it. So it's not constantly taking me back down that way or, or creating the environment where I could be triggered and kind of battling my old demons all over again. And so that's also where I think the value of a group comes in, that we can get their advice, we hear the steps that others are taking, and we can even bring some that we're not sure of if it's related to how we do our job. I've had that a lot with guys that will say I can't get rid of my smartphone or the Internet on it because it's part of how I answer my work calls and do this and that. And so we've as a group will strategize, okay, what are ways that can help you mitigate that being a slippery slope in your life, but maybe not require you to quit your job over it, which. And then at other times, if people see that it's all connected. I have had people change jobs or careers or that sort of thing because they didn't see any other way to safely remain in the roles they were in. So like I said, depending on the behavior and the environment, it's very, very different. But I think just looking at for this season, how do I eliminate this temptation from my life so that I can be wholly engaged in my recovery.

Yeah, I think too, like a good reminder for me is, you know, that we don't just arrive like we're not going to go through a three to five year recovery process and then be done. And so we start usually recovery with really, really high guard rails and need to gain some stability and maintain sobriety. And then, and then you peel the layer like you, you move more things from your middle circle into your inner circle of, you know, on the three circles exercise. So when I look through my unraveled book, it's like year one is dealing with love sex issues. And then, you know, you're the second time through. I was dealing with anger, especially toward my kids because they were safe people for me. And then, then I look back and I'm like seeing answers written in the margin of, oh, I'm really wrestling with food, which is a surprise because that was an old behavior from a decade ago that's creeped its way back in. And, and so I, I think we get to a place where things are not as big of a struggle anymore. Like we can get a handle on sexual addiction and that might not be a big struggle anymore, but we still have that nature as a person that when life gets stressful, our brain doesn't want to feel that. And so it's going to be looking for. And that's where we have to stay super attuned and watch for these little creepers to come back in or different new ways where it's like, oh, now I'm. Now I'm kind of disengaging with books where before it was porn or that we can find new things. And so I think that's why it's important to continue to at least have a community where you can say, I feel like I'm in a rut. Like that's the language I use is my brain feels like it's very rutted right now. And then there's other times I just feel very free and not chained by any addictions or not being pulled anyway. And it's like I'm living in health and, and I, I feel when I get in that rut and I'm like, I feel like I need something constantly and, and, and that's where I'll start reaching out for help and making some plans.

So another tool I'd mention, just because I think technology is really a slippery slope for so many people, especially on the front end of recovery, but can absolutely continue to be one for people as they go on their journey is the tech action plan is Just evaluating how you use technology, what boundaries and guardrails you need in place, how to maintain health. You know, we've talked about on the show that maybe it's getting rid of a smartphone completely. Maybe you have, you know, your laptops and things at home, like, locked down, but having a tech action plan. So it's a proactive plan you put in place on how you're going to use all your technology across all the devices that you have. I think that kind of tool can be pretty helpful. And I mean, the tools you guys mentioned, we'll make sure that those are in the show notes as well. There is plenty of stuff definitely to use.

Yeah, I was thinking, too. You know, my kids have the bark monitoring app, and I just love it so much. But I also put a timer on my Amazon app, and so my kids are like, why do you have a timer on your. It'll be like, you've run out of your Amazon time today. And I'm like, man, I have ignored that timer, like, four times today. I think I need to increase my time just a little bit so I don't feel so deprived. But.

Yeah.

Or.

Or do you? That's kind of my question.

No, I. I do. I do.

Okay.

You know. All right, well, she lives a long ways away from a real store, so Amazon, like, is her. Her store.

I mean, I hear you. I just feel like maybe we should ask you. I feel like we should ask John, like.

Yeah.

Do you think she should be spending more time on Amazon?

Yeah.

Yeah. He brought in a package today. I was like, that's a return from a present you bought me two months ago, and I'm still trying to find the right item. That is not a new purchase.

I can see the look he must have given you to get that response. That's perfect.

Yeah. Well, I think as we're trying to identify these slippery slopes and there's maybe some that will be more obvious because we see that historically they've been part of our pattern. But I think the reality is that at some level, anything could potentially become a slippery slope for us. So how do we stay in a place, Ashley, where we're vigilant about protecting ourselves and setting up those helpful guardrails? Maybe not just one time, but how do we make that an ongoing part of our recovery and plan for health?

Yeah, I would say, too. I know we've talked about, like, all these kind of sneaky slippery slopes, but if. If somebody's listening, they're in early recovery. We were really, really intense. I mean, John Almost did not marry me because I would go to the bars and dance with everybody. And so I had to decide that my relationship with John Jesus myself was more important than whatever, like, felt need I was chasing. And so I, you know, I had to say, okay, I'm not going to go out dancing. It was something I really enjoyed doing, but I did not do it for the first 12 years of our marriage. And then when I finally did go out dancing a couple of years ago, it was like a piano bar with my Bible study group. So, you know, it's. I had to. And they knew. You know, they knew. I think even when I started traveling with you guys, it was like I had all these boundaries around bars and. Because sometimes you're eating at a bar and grill or just, just really, really cautious about that. And so I. I say if you're early in recovery, do. Do it all. Like, do everything. Yeah, you know, we had. That. We had. We were able at that time to not have Internet. I know it's harder and harder with jobs now. I was experiencing a lot of panic attacks as a newly betrayed spouse. And so I could not watch or listen to anything dark. Even the scene with Snow White where she's like, running through the forest, that was a trigger for me. So I literally just didn't even watch TV because I was so. Anything would trigger a panic attack for me. I cut off social media, all social media for three years. And I wasn't struggling with the sexual addiction or temptation at that time. Mine was being triggered as a betrayed spouse. And so that comparison was. That comparison was triggering my body dysmorphia, which then was triggering my eating disorder brain. And so it was like I really had to evaluate everything I let into my life and say, when I engage with this activity, am I. Do I feel better about myself? Do I feel worse about myself? Do I feel better about my marriage? Do I feel worse? Do I feel closer to God? Further from God? Am I feeling shame? I really. I mean, you have to. When you're going through something like this, you have to evaluate over. Evaluate everything. And, you know, we didn't go to the beach for a couple of years and so much of that stuff, I mean, I was watching, like, killer shows the other day. I don't know, hopefully nobody hates me for that either. But, like, so much of that has come back and it's fine. And we still have to, like, okay, is this. Is this appropriate? Is this going too far? Is this too sexual? We still have those conversations, but in the beginning, just cut Just cut it all out and give yourself that, that peace of mind. Like, let your limbic system calm down and turn off all the decision fatigue, the white knuckling, and just let yourself fully engage in recovery. And then I, I really think the only way that you can maintain having good guardrails is to keep up on your tools and on your tools with other people who know you. So your spouse, they'll be honest with you. I'm sure your group have. Have people that can speak into your life and, and they have permission to be blunt and honest. I think that's the best thing we can do. I see people go downhill when they don't let people close to them, be blunt with them. And so have those people that can say, you know, is that really healthy for you? I had to say that to a friend of the other day. Like, you are listening to so many books and your fuse with your kids is getting really short, and I just think there's a connection there. And so. And she was like, that's interesting. You know, so have people that can do that for you.

Yeah. The only thing I would just add on is just asking, and I think not even add on. I would just say with people, friends, groups, group members, and spouse, like, ask the question, like, where do you see me isolating with what, at what times, with what behaviors? Because they're going to know, like, they're going to be like, well, when you're on your phone, you know, or when you're. When fantasy football season comes around or something like that, they'll be able to give you some clarity stuff maybe that you can't see.

Yeah. I remember hearing Dr. Ted Roberts say, new levels, new devils, and the idea that when things change in our life, so do some of the triggering areas or the things that could become a slippery slope. And so I would say that if you're going through any kind of season of change, you're going from single to married, you're going from an apartment to a house, you're getting a new job, you're changing positions, you're going through crisis or have had a death in the family. Just all those new environments tend to cause things to kind of get dysregulated and new things may begin to crop up. And I think that's the value of staying in community and being in group and talking with our spouses is that what at one time was maybe not an issue at all, could suddenly become really a part of that pattern again. And so I think it's what we've talked about that willingness to pull out our three Circles tool and where we have created guardrails to evaluate, are these working? Is there anything I need to add? Is there anything I need to change? Because life is dynamic and so our guardrails need to be dynamic along with it. And we just need to have that eye on what is becoming. Because that's the other thing is when we remove maybe some things that we've used as a crutch or an escape or a go to and it's been our slippery slope and we take them out at first, there might be kind of some peace and relief like, ah, I'm not battling that, but over time you're probably going to find that something new starts to gravitate in that. Well, I didn't used to have that issue, but I'm realizing that now when I'm frustrated or upset, that's. That's the new thing I do. And if we're not attentive to that, it can become a new slippery slope all over. So the only other thing I would say is on our spouse's behalf is if this is part of our story, if betrayal trauma has happened in the relationship, they are maybe even more fearful of the slippery slope than you are of feeling like, well, I know you're just doing this, but this leads to that, to that, to that, to that. And some of their fear or worry around that may last much longer than your own sense of being triggered by it. And I have to be reminded by this because there are still, and I don't quite have my finger on it with my wife, but even after 14 years, there are certain types of scenes in movies or TV shows that trigger her kind of fear response of is Nick seeing this? And we've had several conversations where it's like, I didn't turn my head away. And I'll say, well, I wasn't. Nothing about that felt triggering to me. I was not at all excited by that, but she was. And so she needed to see me honor her because she still has some, for whatever reason about, like I said, it's not all the time. There's certain things that it just creates that in her. And so I've had to be mindful to go, oh, my slippery slope areas didn't just hurt me, they hurt people around me. And the people around me may still be semi conscious of what they were long after I'm currently feeling it. So all that to just say, if you've had a slippery slope in your life and your spouse still kind of picks up on it, you may choose to still abstain from something because it honors them, because you want to say, hey, I want to be a safe person for you. And if, for whatever reason, this still causes you worry, fear, concern, doubt that I'm making good choices, then I'm going to keep away from it because I want to create that safety for you. And I just. I think that's part of rebuilding trust in our relationship. So, again, even if you don't see it, but your spouse does, be willing to make change to help them see that you're choosing integrity consistently.

Yeah, I think that's such a good point you brought up recently. John was in Florida for work, and it's like they stay in a hotel and it's men and women traveling. And I know I do the same thing, too, but he hasn't felt betrayal from me in the way that I felt it for him. So. So it ends up being like, if I text him and I know they're out to dinner somewhere and they're on Daytona beach and, you know, like, all the things, bikinis and stuff, then I'm like, okay, it's been 45 minutes. He didn't respond. You know, like, is he gonna be out all night? Because old things are triggered. Because at some point, there was a time where he may go out with friends and he may not respond to me. When we first got married, there'd be times where he'd be gone and wouldn't respond to me, like, 12 days. And sometimes that was because he was out in the forest and there was no service. Other times it's because we were newlyweds and he was used to going on these firewalls and not having any communication. And so old things would get triggered. And then I was able to remind myself, like, well, what would it look like if I was out? I just was in Texas with all of you guys, you know, and it's probably the same thing. And I was able to kind of, like, calm myself down. But what you're saying, even about what Michelle, you know, as a betrayed spouse, I shared this in another episode. Like, if you are using the three circles and you never saw your husband's center circle, you never saw the relapses because they were hidden. But what you did see a lot of is that middle circle. You saw a lot of the late night tv, you saw a lot of the sexual shows or the game playing or the drinking or going out, whatever it was that led to relapse. And then your visual stopped because the rest was under the Surface. And so for them, they have, like, a connection with the whole circle. And so when they stop those inner circle behaviors and they're not relapsing anymore, and then maybe they engage in a middle circle behavior, that's like a. That's like a tremor for us. Like, oh, my gosh. I've seen this before, and this is what it used to be like. And so I think that tool actually can be really good. It helped John understand why I would get triggered. And you guys will be so proud of me. He has been playing video games a little bit, and it has not been triggering lately, but. But at one point, it did help him for me to show him his three circles and say, like, this is the only part I ever saw was the video game playing, the coming home late from work, whatever it was. I never saw anything else. And so when we were early in recovery, he was very intentional about hanging out in only the outer circle, because it's like, okay, we are gung ho. We're gonna do everything. We're canceling everything. We're gonna hang out in the outer circle. And then slowly, over time, he went back to the gym, which is good for him. But I have to be really careful to know you're using those things in a good way, not a bad way. And so then those things require extra communication to make sure that we're using them in a good way.

Totally.

Yeah. It's good.

That wasn't my turn. So if we're married, this is a great. This is a great leading, because we were just talking about this. But if we're married, how involved should our spouses be in identifying and navigating potential issue areas? And so I. I am glad we're doing this together as, like, guys and girl guys and gals, because I. I am curious to see from a male perspective, how involved, you know, like you guys say, that spouses should be is in creating it and using it. I think my gym example is probably the example I just gave about the tremors when. When he hangs out in the middle circle, but also the gym example. And so for me, if I see mostly that he's doing the healthy things, and for me, again, the three circles is just the easiest visual for me. If he's 90% hanging out in outer circles and then, like, goes out to a bar and grill in Florida with some friends at work. But I have seen him be relational. I've seen him do his work. I've seen him reading, praying, communicating well, getting good sleep, then that's less of A trigger for me. But if he was hanging out, you know, most the time in that middle circle, like just staying up late, watching a lot of tv, cussing, drinking, I mean, whatever else may be in there. And then he's like going out to, you know, wherever with co workers, I might feel more triggered because I will know that he's mentally probably not in the best space to, to navigate those temptations. And then one good example with the gym is just going to the gym for health, not for escape. And so in the past, it would be we would fight or he would get frustrated with the kids and he would just up and leave, like, grab his things, go, I'm going to the gym. And that was such a trigger because girls wear hardly anything in the gym. And then, and then now I can see that it's for health. And so we did have to have a conversation about that. I think it was three years post recovery, like starting a recovery where he went fully back to the gym. And it was like, okay, you can't go when we're, when you're fighting, like when we were fighting, because that's totally a trigger. It feels like an escape. And maybe more than once a day is a little excessive right now. Like, we're not in a CrossFit competition. And so it just makes me nervous that you're always wanting to go there. And then if you say you're on your way to home from work, and I know you two will understand this because you both have wives at home with children, you say you're on your way home after a really long day with the kids, and then you're like, actually, I'm going to stop at the gym first, so it'll be another hour. Like, I will blow my lid faster than anything if you do not come home when you say you're coming home. So those were our three kind of parameters we put in place.

I think the first thing that came to mind with this question is just depending on where you are in recovery. But if you're on the front end, I think that you need to do things that make your betrayed partner feel safe. And so that may mean, you know, a lot of the stuff we've talked about, identifying those things that, you know, for John didn't go to the gym for a while, like take that off the table. And yeah, that's something that may be good self care, but believe it or not, there's other things you can do for self care that your spouse may feel more comfortable with or may be okay, you know, like I need to be able to see you. You can buy weights and, like, I'm gonna watch you work out. That feels like something Ashley would have done. But I think that something like that, you know, where I think that they need to be absolutely involved, because it's them that you betrayed, and it's. That's the person you need to develop trust with again. And so I think that's at least just my thought is if it's on the front end, they definitely need to be involved. Not that they don't longer, you know, down the road, but I think for sure, they almost help set the trajectory of what you are doing and are not doing. And I know that can sound controlling, but I think you guys hear what I'm saying.

Well, I think the truth is that our spouses and I mentioned this. Our spouses probably recognize the slippery slopes better and sooner than we do. To go back to my story of fantasy sports, I was not the one that put fantasy sports in my middle circle for guardrails. It was the first time we were talking it over as a couple, and my wife said, well, what about fantasy sports? And I'm like, what about fantasy sports? She's like, well, don't you think that should be off the list for now? And I'm like, what? No, Like, I was actually super defensive. Like, what's the big deal with that? And she's like, walked through how the last three times you've confessed to me about a relapse, they all started with this. And.

Yeah.

And it was humbling. It was like, oh, oh, you're right. And I was still, again, I don't want to glorify, like, my response of being all wonderful because I was a little myth by it of, like, why should I have to do that? Or I don't see the point, or it's not connected. And it literally came to the point, my wife said something to the effect of, you can have fantasy sports or you can have me, but you can't have both. Which do you want? And I was like, okay, I think this is pretty serious to her. But as I look back, she wasn't attacking the fantasy sports. Right. She was seeing, this has been part of the pattern that really, really hurts me. And if you're not willing to change the pattern, I feel like you're not willing to stop hurting me. And why would I want that? And so that's the role I think spouses have, is if they. And I would say this in a relationship where you're working on rescuing and saving the marriage. I mean, they don't have a whole lot to offer if they've given up and left the home. And, I mean, maybe you don't choose to value what they say then. But if they're trying to fight for the marriage with you and they see something and say, this is a problem, like I said, I didn't do great in that one. But don't argue with them. Be like, okay, I think there's something here I'm not seeing. I'm blind to it. But I trust that if you see it. And I think it's okay if you ask for clarification, because maybe you're afraid that they're just being punitive or that they're just kind of attacking something for no reason. But I think if you'll really listen, that's not their heart. Their heart is say, I have seen consistently this leads to this, leads to this. And you're willing to say, okay, let's deal with that. Let's get it off the table so that you can see my sincerity and change. Because that's going back to that conversation with my wife. If you're not willing to let go of something like watching TV alone at night or fantasy sports or whatever it is, they're like, if you won't even change that, and yet you're saying, I'll do anything to make this up to you, they're like, no, you won't. You're not even willing to give up some little thing that I'm saying is part of your journey. So I think they have a huge role to play, and they may ask for you to change some things that you don't yet see why you need to. But I would say, man, again, if they're fighting for the marriage with you, go with it. Because if it's gonna help you restore the marriage and trust between you and your spouse, like, it's worth it. So I think they have a big role to play.

Totally. So if we know that they clearly need to have that role. Let's look at another important group of people is really just our group, the people who we're going through recovery with, people we're doing these resources with. How involved, and maybe you could even include, like, a clinician or a therapist in this too. How involved should they be in us identifying and maintaining areas of the slippery slope?

Yeah, two things real quick. One, I would just say there is a danger here where I've seen guys kind of be like, well, if the group tells me I need to make this boundary, then I Will, and then I'll find out. Through the course of meeting, they said, well, I brought this up when I told my story and no one told me I shouldn't, so I didn't change it. And it's like, well, now you're kind of putting responsibility for change on the group. You're waiting for them to tell you what to do, and that's not healthy. So in that regard you have to take responsibility for your change. You have to make these decisions, not wait for a group or a counselor to tell you to do it. What I do think is appropriate though, and this is the second thing, is where you're not sure to bring it to the group and explain the situation of like, hey, I'm on my smartphone a lot for work for these reasons. But I also know it's that same smartphone that leads me into those old websites. What could I do? Like, do you guys have some ideas? What would you suggest? So I think getting help in areas that we're maybe not real clear on, or asking them, is there something you're seeing that I'm not seeing that's appropriate asking for help, but it's not appropriate just to expect them to do the work for you?

Yeah, I think it's really good. And I kind of alluded to that earlier too. I mean, if you just have any takeaway, it's that you have people, whether it's your group people or um, or just people you've gone through group with previously or people that speak honestly and are healthy people that you can run things by. I think we all need some wise counsel to walk with us through life because we do get blind spots and we do need the outside perspective. And you know, as John's wife, there was a time where it was like he wanted us to be back to the way we were, but was still doing behaviors that were very unhealthy. And I'm like, I am literally giving you a written out list of things that you can do that will make me find you the most attractive person in the entire universe. I know we don't want to just check boxes, but try it. Like just try to see what happens. Yeah, just see what happens. I mean, and so I think, you know, and then there's been times where when he points something out to me, it's like an eye opener because I'm normally the one that's like always researching different ways and how can we better this and that. And so there's, there's been times and they're far and few between where he's like, you are very angry with the kids this week or you know, you're acting very addicty or are you sure you need to stay up and watch that show? And, and I'm just like, I mean if, you know John, he doesn't speak like that a lot. Like, you know, he's very chill. And so when he says something it's, it's a big indicator for me. And I think what we have to do is just be humble enough to let people speak into our lives, to let people that we know love us, even if we don't like it, say things. Because we need outside perspective all the time in everything we do, including recovery, especially recovery.

You guys crushed it. Let's move on.

Yeah, well, let's wrap up with this then. Kind of that forward looking journey. The rest of our lives we're always working towards greater health. What does this look like as part of that ongoing journey? Does something that was a slippery slope at the beginning have to always be avoided? And on that list for us or can we ever engage in these activities or behaviors with safety as we continue to grow and change?

Yeah, I think for some people there are going to be things that you just can't ever do again. I do think that happens. So if there's a behavior that always leads to relapse or always hurts your spouse, that may be the game changer, you know. And I think a real act of love and just a reflection of Christ is that we realize we're doing relationship together and if there's something we're doing that hurts another person, that we, we make that decision to not do that, just like you were talking about. And then there's other things. I think this is often the case that we are able to grow back into some situations with healthy boundaries and, and things like that. Because my guess would be that when we started our addiction we had a lot of secrets because that's a lot of times what leads people to addiction is stuffing their pain, hiding, being secret. And so like as you're saying, Trevor, sometimes you can feel that secrecy shame around YouTube, even though YouTube itself is not bad. We start that way and so we may just have to eliminate all of that. But then later we could go do the same activity. Fantasy football, video games, or going out dancing at a piano bar. And there's zero shame around it because we're in such a different place with our life and we have. And our, and we're open with our spouses and we're healthy in other areas. And so I Think for the. You know, there is a list. There is a blacklist of things that just nobody should be doing there. There is.

Yeah.

But then I would say for the majority of our group members, we do see growth where they can engage in some of these activities that are not bad, but they can become slippery slopes.

I'm sorry, every time you say piano bar, I'm just trying to, like, were they playing Casting Crowns there? Is that what you were dancing to? Or was it Billy Joel?

It's like two piano guys, and they are legit. So good. And you can request any song. I mean, it can be rap, it can be country, it can be rock. It's like they. They just play on the piano. They're really good.

I mean, now I almost feel like she should tell us what it's called. Don't. But it's called the piano bar. The piano bar.

Okay.

All right, all right, all right. Sorry. I brought it up. For me, like, social media was one of those things that was at the top of my pattern of addiction and then got off of it for a number of years. I think it was like three years. And then I circled back to it with my wife, was thinking about. And at times it was like I had good intentions. I'm like, well, I want to use it for work and be more active there and help promote pure desire and all this stuff. And then we got to the point, even recently, where it's not healthy for me. It was putting me in situations that were not helpful, you know, and, like, lapses happen, and then you have to have that conversation, and that creates, you know, situations that are painful and difficult. And obviously, in those moments, it helps you reevaluate. Like, is this really helpful for me? You know, And I talked to my wife, and she's like, yeah, I just. I agree. I don't think you should be on it anymore. And so what I would say is, not everything is gonna be maybe like that for someone who's in recovery. But I do think that it is healthy to have a pattern of reevaluating, you know, over, like, every month, every year, every six months, whatever it may be. Have kind of a check in where it's like, hey, I've been on this for a little while. What do you think about this? Is it going okay? How am I feeling? How are you feeling? That kind of thing? Because, again, it's not like a set it and forget it type of thing, because we've talked about it so many times on the podcast that life. And, Nick, you even mentioned it like life will change and new dynamics, you know that Dr. Ted quote, what was it? New levels, new devils. New devils, yeah. Like things are gonna change and grow and develop. And so it's always good to reevaluate, you know. And I even think about that, gosh, like you get married and then you're in. I was like, I got married, I'm in recovery, things are going great and then you have a kid and it's like life is not the same anymore, you know, and so there's all these new stressors. So I think having a pattern of reevaluation with you and your spouse, you and your group, I think is really helpful.

Well, you always say too Trevor, that I'm like a walking advertisement for the home stress test, but I am. I think people should do that.

What's your affiliate link again? You have one, right?

I get paid. I am. Because when you guys know, like when my brother passed away two years ago, I was really struggling in different areas. Nothing that like would throw me over the edge, you know, like nothing cliff worthy but, but just that whole redded brain, like, oh my gosh, I don't want to think, I don't want to be with my feelings. And then when I got divorced the first time I developed OCD and an eating disorder, neither one of those things were ever on the table for me. They literally felt like they just came out of nowhere. And now looking back, because I've done all this self care work, I can see patterns that would and lies that would contribute to those behaviors, but those legitimately just felt like they just creeped out of the closet because I was in this new chaos, this new single life with twin one year old boys. And I'm like, oh, now I have ocd. That's fun. So yeah, new levels, new devils for sure.

Yeah. I think we have to make this an ongoing conversation. You know, like I said, life is dynamic and so should our plan be. And every few times a year, as we're in later recovery, I think that should still be something we talk about as spouses and our groups. Like, hey, how about this? What do you think? Here's some adjustments and I think both to add things that have become maybe new areas and being able to adjust or shift things off that aren't a concern. So like in our marriage, I think probably five, six years ago I brought up there was a church group doing fantasy football again. I'm like, hey, what do you think of me playing and in the league? And my wife's reaction was very Much like, oh, we're not ready for that. Okay, I guess I'll say no. And then a couple years ago, we were one came up at work or. So I'm not sure if this was one first or another church league that I got invited into brought it up and she was like, yeah, I think we can try that. It's like, okay, cool. So a couple of fantasy football teams has become part of my rhythm again, and it's not what it used to be at all. On the other hand, I would say things that are on my guardrails list since day one of like, watching TV alone late at night, watching TV in hotel rooms. I've not done and I don't ever plan to do again just because I don't miss it. I don't see the value of it. And it's like, why would I re. Add something? Just so I'm like, well, I have the freedom to do this when I don't even see the value it adds. But know that there could be dangers there. So I think it's just realizing some things will stay and just become part of our new normal where other things may develop and adapt over time. And it's just impossible to say which are which, because I think the other side is the healthier you get and you participate in this with your spouse and with others in group, the more accuracy you get to look at your own life and make some of those distinctions or wisdom decisions on that's just not wise for me, and I'm okay with that. So I think if right now you're not sure what it's going to be, the greatest thing I can tell you is just pursue your health, just pursue your recovery, just pursue sobriety, pursue change with everything you have. And some of these decisions about your guardrails and what's a slippery slope like, they just become more evident as time goes on.

Yeah. It is interesting that this topic, it's not one that's just at the beginning of recovery, it's something that will last our entire life. That it's always. I mean, sometimes the target on what is a slippery slope is changing over time. And so we know this conversation definitely contributes to people who are in recovery. We hope it was helpful as you evaluate where you're at, maybe what some of those slippery slopes are. And I also hope that if you're in recovery, this gives you a little bit of a picture of the betrayed partner in this too, and how much value there can be in inviting them in and creating more safety by identifying and putting guardrails around these. So, Ashley, you always bring both perspectives of the recovery and the betrayal stuff, and it's always so helpful. So thanks for being with us.

Yeah, thanks for having me on here. I like this episode and if you're.

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