351 - FAQ #17

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 351 of the Pure Desire podcast Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Class, anybody? Bueller? Class, anybody? Class? I don't know how long it goes, but you get the gist. I'm just gonna let you keep going.

Name it. Name that actor.

Bueller. No, Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

That's the movie. What's the actor's name?

I'm picturing him. His name is. Oh, my gosh, I'm blanking.

Ben. Ben Stein. I'm not talking about Ferris. I'm talking about.

Oh, you were talking about. Yeah, okay. Ben Stein. Yeah, yeah, he did a great job on that.

You're talking about Matthew Broderick is who you're talking about.

Yeah, I was thinking of Broderick. He was the one place Inspector Gadget.

That's true. And I grew up. He was in Godzilla. Like, that's also what I saw him in, which was so interesting to me.

Yeah, yeah. Huh.

And I believe he was in the movie the Producers with Will Ferrell. That movie was hilarious. Okay, so Will Ferrell.

I thought it was a different. Maybe I'm thinking of the guy. Because he did the Producers on Broadway.

Yeah, yeah.

With a different actor. Yeah, I think that's what I'm thinking of.

Trivia time with Nick and Drummer.

I'm very deep, except I can't remember half the trivia. So that's a lot fun.

That's why I'm here. So we had Tracy Wright, who's one of our clinicians, on, and we are doing another round of Frequently Asked Questions. And we covered quite a bit of different stuff on today's episode.

Yes, and I think that intro is the very reason we do these episodes, because sometimes people are asking questions and it feels like everyone's just putting their head down and no one's answering and no one wants to talk about it. And it's a lot of silence. And so then we feel like maybe I'm not supposed to ask these questions. I better move on. But that's the point of this podcast and for sure, these frequently Frequently Asked Questions episodes is that we try to just say, man, what's on your mind? As it comes to sexuality, recovery, health, dating, and everything in between, we want to be that safe place to provide some hopefully reliable, biblical, consistent information. And again, these aren't foolproof. That this is the only way. We're trying to offer our opinions and advice based on what we've seen and heard and experienced. But I think for many of us, we haven't heard these questions be answered anywhere. So if we can be that for you, the listener, that's why we're here. And we love doing these episodes, like we mentioned a couple of times.

Yeah. And I think we talk about it. This was Traci's first time doing a FAQ episode with us too, so it is a good one. And we do cover quite a breadth of stuff. So enjoy. Here's our time with Tracy Wright on some more frequently asked questions. Tracy Wright, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. We always love having you. Thanks for being with us.

Thank you. Nice to join you today.

Her favorite, right? Would I. Would you say that it's our favorite rite of the right household?

I don't know. Don't say that too loud because you might hurt Rodney's feelings there.

But I did meet Whitney. She's pretty cool.

Yeah, they're a great family. They are good people all around.

That's true. I remember a time I saw your youngest and we became best friends over movies, and then we never saw each other again, so I should probably reach out. Okay, so we're gonna do our next Frequently Asked Questions episode here. And honestly, I say this every time we do them. We love these because there's so many different questions we get with so many different nuances and from so many different perspectives. And so this just gives us an opportunity to, in one blast, just answer a bunch of them all at the same time.

Has Tracy ever been on one of them, though? Is this her first FAQ with us?

Is it, Tracy? I think so. It is.

I find it really interesting. I love that people ask questions because I'm a question asker too.

Yeah.

Yeah. It keeps us on our toes for sure. And yeah, I mean, I'll say this in the intro. I'll say it at the end too, but just want to reinforce again, if you have questions, please send them to podcasturedesire.org and we would love to. If it's a topic that's like, hey, this is a whole conversation or episode, we'll do it. And if it's a little bit smaller, then we'll put them in an episode like this. So. So let's get into it. And this first question was sent in by Warren, and the question is, while on the recovery journey, it's easy to become extremely passionate about healing and inviting others into it. But at some point, at what point does recovery become an idol or take the place of our pursuit of God? And if that happens, what do we do about it? What do we think?

I think anything can become out of balance in our lives. So I was just thinking this like the definition of sin as missing the mark, that's just making adjustments when, when we're off from how we're designed. So I think anything can. Can become out of balance. But listening to others around us is so important. So, like, if we're open to other people's feedback, they're gonna hopefully help us when we're kind of over consuming or over focused with ourselves. And it's not like health being integrated in a healthy way. Yeah.

I think there's a couple of questions we can ask ourselves when we're looking at idolatry being. Have we set something above God in our life? Has it taken a place of our attention, our worship, the focus of our heart that's really intended to be where Christ sits in our life. And so the two things that came to mind for me is that thought of like, does my story consistently elevate Christ or does it elevate myself? Am I the hero of the story or is God and his work in me the ultimate and true hero of the story? And when people hear that, do they pick up on it? We've talked about another mistake people make sometimes with their story that they actually glorify not God or even themselves. They glorify their past by getting over, like, man, I used to do this and I was caught up in that. And it's. It's kind of like the car accident syndrome. I can't help but look away because it's fascinating and we might get stuck there. It's like, well, no, that's not the goal. The goal is to talk about what has Christ done. And I think if we're really seeing boy consistently, that's my heart, is to glorify God and what he's done and bring him praise and glory and honor. I think we're in a good place with that. Another question may just be, has this become my identity? That I have a difficult time. Like you talked about Traci being out of balance or just disproportionate in our lives. That when I think of who I am, if I can't really imagine myself apart from my recovery journey and my growth and what I'm known for and maybe sharing my testimony at church, then I've maybe gotten a little out of focus. That truly our identity the goal of our healing is to re establish that true identity that we're made in God's image, we're his child, we belong to him, and we're in Christ and sealed for eternity. And, and that that's how we ought to know and see ourselves. Versus Hi, I'm Nick Stumbo, the recovered addict who can help change your life if you just listen to my story long enough. So those would be the two questions, like am I consistently glorifying Christ with my story? And what's the source of my identity? And I think that can really help us clarify if our own recovery has become a sort of idol to us.

One of the ways I see this play out, and I think this is something I struggle with, and I have heard it from so many people who've been through recovery or really recovery or healing groups, is that you start to villainize the church, that this is like the one area they have to focus on. And if they don't focus on this and talk about it as much as you think they should, that it's like, well, then the church is just awful. Like we got to find someplace else else to go. And I'm not saying that that outright is a bad heart to want your church to grow and develop in this area, but when it becomes that you're discounting the evangelism and the biblical teaching and the discipleship that they have and the way they care for families and local outreach, you like, devalue all of that and place recovery as like the only thing or the primary thing. I think that is an indicator that's maybe become too important in your life or that you're too hyper focused on that. And I think personally for me, in areas like that, where recovery can feel like maybe it becomes more of what I talk about and less about the Lord. I mean, just spiritual rhythms and practices always bring me back to center, whether it's reading scripture, it's studying, it's in Bible studies, it's in prayer, it's in journaling with the Lord. Things like that I think are always helpful to realign us back to that. But I also think having community is important too, that your friends listen to the way that you talk and what you talk about and to give them permission to speak in, like, hey, if I get to the point where you start hearing Jesus name a lot less and my recovery story a lot more, then feel free to jump in. So that's just a thought I have on maybe how to start addressing it.

I think from a practical standpoint, too early Recovery looks different than later. It's kind of like if you were preparing for a marathon or something, you're going to give a lot of time and attention. And I think early recovery, you have a lot of time and attention on recovery plans and tools and things like that. And so the natural, like, as we grow and are reevaluating what our recovery plans look like, it's going to look different over the years, and hopefully it gets integrated into the rest of our lives. Right. And it's not just this one big thing that's our whole focus, but it's more of that holistic approach that God values all these different areas of our life. And so I kind of see it that way just from the practical standpoint that it can change. So if you're reevaluating your recovery plan, you're going to know, okay, what do I need now? Maybe this year I don't need counseling every week and three groups.

Right?

That's true. That's great. And that illustration makes me think of my. One of my favorite running jokes. How do you know if someone's run a marathon? Oh, don't worry, they'll tell you that's good. And that kind of applies to this area. Like, if what everybody knows about you is like, oh, here comes the recovery stuff, and here comes, like, if that's all you know how to talk about, that may be an evidence that there's a lack of integrating this into the holistic nature of who you are, because at the heart, you're still a human being. And you might be super excited and passionate about your recovery, but just make sure that's not the only thing that you ever bring into any conversation. Because for some people, that does become like, oh, here we go again. And they're maybe not ready for that message. And they need to know you care. They need to know that you can integrate this with other areas of life and not just become kind of a one note Sally or Sam, that that's all you ever talk about. So here's a good one, Traci, that helps maybe single people process a little bit. What sort of milestones could we suggest for a single person to reach in recovery before they begin dating? Or just put another way, how does a single person who's working through their recovery, how do they know when they're ready to start dating? And we hear that question quite frequently.

Yeah, I think learning about ourselves when we're single and being fully honest with ourself and at least one other safe person. So if you're talking about your sexuality, then your sexual history, positive or negative. Not living with secrets means I've been honest with myself, I'm not in denial and at least one other person that I'm fully honest with. And then I think another really important piece is to look for single people is just to look at the boundaries in our lives and what we know about safe people. So sometimes that means going backwards a little into our own trauma and our own or our own just history and wounds. Everybody has wounds and take a look at that. So definitely having a safe group that you do that in, whether it's around addiction or another type of healthy group where we're really being honest with each other.

Yeah. And I think too with that because in certain contexts I think it kind of brings up a different answer. Like if you're just trying harder and locking down your Internet and not in community, it's like, well, I don't know, I have more questions basically. But if you're someone who's in group that's been working a program with people in the same process with you, the six month mark is pretty good. You've got some self awareness under your belt. You've figured out maybe what's motivating the behavior, some of the traumas that are underlying and some of the triggers, your pattern, things like that. I think that that can be some awareness that you create in that six month period. Now that in no way is a standard across the board. Again, it depends on who you are. It depends on situation you're in, the trauma that you've experienced. It could be a year, it could be a couple years. But I think that part of that is just how much of my story do I understand? How much have I been able to process and what kind of tools have been able to practice for? And again, that's kind of where that six month window in my mind makes sense. Because you've been practicing something for half a year at that point. Okay, maybe then I can start to have those conversations about what it looks like to press in. But again, it's such a hard question to answer because there's really no exact answer.

Yeah. And I think some of it depends on has a dating pattern been part of your struggle in the past? Is acting out with people physically part of your story? Is sending inappropriate images to girlfriends, boyfriends been part of your story? If dating has been wrapped up in your sexual struggle, then there may need to be a longer time where you're experiencing sobriety and freedom so that you have a totally different mindset about Dating now for others, if they're asking the question out of more. I've struggled with lust and pornography, but not in dating relationships. The timeline could look differently. And I think that's when I would, if I were to answer for those people that would say, well, no, dating relationships weren't part of my pattern of struggle. I'm just concerned about bringing my history into it. I think you do want to look for some level of traction, like if you're stuck in the exact same pattern of binge purge with pornography or relapsing that you have been for years and you don't really see that anything's changed, it's too soon. I mean, I would say, frankly, about that it's too soon to be thinking about dating if you're not getting any sort of handle on your recovery where you're starting to see periods of sobriety and even if they're still marked with you had a slip up or a fall, but then you get back and start a good track record like, hey, you're showing positive direction and momentum. And I think that's a must. And then the other thing that comes to mind for me too is do you feel at least a level of confidence that you can begin to date someone and not immediately sexualize the relationship? And hopefully if you're going out with someone, you find them attractive and there may be thoughts of, man, I really think this person is very someone I'd like to be with. And that's human nature to a degree. But if you realize, man, if I go out with someone, I'm just gonna spend the whole night in this cycle of what do they look like and when can we cross these boundaries? You're probably not, as Traci kind of mentioned there, you're not safe enough in your own skin to really feel like you can see a person for a person and not just as a future hope of someone I'm going to connect with sexually. So I kind of look at those things and then I would just say, on the flip side, I do encourage singles and young people to guard against this, what I would call perfectionism, basically, that I think can seep into our thinking of I need to be sexually perfect before I even think of dating like I need to. And by that sometimes we think like, I should have no lust in my life, I should have no desire. And it's almost becoming robotic in our emotions and our sexuality that I say part of it. We can't think. I'm going to be at just some perfect place because you're still a sexual being and you still have desires and urges. And you may be experiencing some of that just as part of your humanness. And that, I believe, is what brings us to God. It makes us dependent on him in prayer. It helps us have wisdom in setting up guardrails and dating and being smart and thoughtful about what physical lines we think are appropriate in dating. Because we're aware that I'm still a human being. And I just have met some young single people that I think are waiting for this magic glory zone where I am totally above any kind of sexual temptation. And it's like, I think you might be waiting the rest of your life for that. So don't make perfection your aim. But I say that progress, I'm seeing momentum, I'm seeing direction, I'm seeing other people through the lens of how God made them. Then I think you could begin exploring dating and realize just because I feel like you always say it forever, it's like, ask your friends, sometimes they know better than you do. Just say, hey, do you think I'm ready to date? Would that be healthy for me? And if they're like, I don't see why not take some encourage from that. If they're like, dude, maybe hit timeout for a little more here.

14 cats that you have in your.

House, that made me really nervous.

Yeah, Right.

If you have people you trust, ask them.

Yeah.

What you're saying there indicates too that you have healthy non dating relationships.

Yes, good point.

So if you're walking out healthy non dating relationships, that's going to really help you gauge whether you're ready for a dating relationship. That would be a good indicator if you were walking out those and not in isolation and have some really healthy, good, healthy people around you.

Yeah, that's good. All right, next question. It's from the same guy, Warren, from the first question. And his question is, what is an emotional affair? What's the threshold where a relationship reaches that point and where is it just a friendship between a man and a woman? This is a good question.

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And like just to sit and think about that, I was thinking, you know, if you are crossing the line into something emotional or something in your thought that's going to start in your mind and emotions first. So I would say that's where you get that little check in your spirit. Right. That I need to make an adjustment here. So either I feel an attraction towards someone or they, it seems like they feel an attraction toward me. I need to make an adjustment. So for some people, it was just a fleeting thought. Maybe that's. You just need to make an adjustment for someone else that may need to reach out to someone and talk to them about it and be honest. Because, of course, we're not wanting to have secrets. And that's. That's gonna contribute to kind of that ongoing. Where it becomes. Where it crosses the line.

Yeah. I think we want to look at, am I creating a level of conversation and connection with someone, not my spouse, that's really taking away from what I am intended to bring to my spouse, that level of openness and vulnerability. And we've got to be willing to ask ourselves the question, if I'm not bringing these things to my spouse, why not? And it could be that we're in a season where our marriage is in disconnect, maybe because of our sexual brokenness. There's not great communication. And I think if we're in a season like that, we're in kind of a heightened zone. We need to be cautious about who we do engage at that level of, like, sharing our burdens and emotions with. And frankly, I believe it should be someone of the same gender. It should be a brother in Christ or a sister in Christ of the same gender. That I am not going to have that issue of boy. I became entangled emotionally just because they listened and they cared. So I would kind of start there. If you're married, I think the question is just always if 100% of what I said and shared with this person was known to my spouse, and maybe it should be, Are they comfortable with it?

Yeah.

Would they feel this is all totally appropriate? And I understand why you're talking to them or why you talk to them, and to me or not to me. So I think the spouse comfort level is a really big deal. And if you feel like, oh, well, I wouldn't want to tell her we were having those conversations, well, then you have your answer right there. If there's conversations you're having with other women or other men that you wouldn't tell your spouse about. Right. You're crossing some lines, and I think you know it. Yeah. Another example I would bring up, too, is there when there is a significant age difference, I think there are levels that are. It's more appropriate to go deep with someone. And the example I would bring up is when I was a young pastor in my early 20s, I had a lady on staff who was in her late 50s, and she was motherly. She was our children's ministry and women's ministry director. There was no concern on either of our parts that there would be any ever sexual attraction. And I could be open with her about things I was struggling with at a work level. Now, I didn't bring to her my marriage problems, although she was a wonderful listener, counseling type. But there was a freedom there that I felt like. I know I can be really honest with Ann and there's no danger that this is going to get complicated or messy. And I would not have had that same kind of conversation with say, a female who was a peer just because there's complications when it is someone around your age and sphere of life. That boy, we get enmeshed with people emotionally and that's not wise. But if it's someone that is of a much different age group, and that's the last thing I was going to say, what is the purpose of my sharing with them of that conversation? And if I begin to realize the purpose is that, man, when I go and talk to this person, they make me feel so good. Well, that's a red flag to me too about that relationship because now you're going to them for what they do for you. And it's going to create more desire and more connection. Connection versus, like the illustration I was sharing about my coworker Ann. I went to Ann not because she made me feel good. I went because we could process and we could figure out, like, what do we do about this person? Or what do we do in this situation? Or how can I respond better? Like, it was helpful and instructive, but it wasn't about this. Well, I'm not getting. And this is what we do hear a lot when emotional affairs are going on is that someone begins to say things like, well, my spouse doesn't listen or my spouse doesn't get it, or my spouse doesn't care, or my spouse is too busy for me. And so I've created this alternative person I go to and man, that makes me feel good. And they realize they're beginning to get from another person something that they should be getting from their. In their marriage relationship. And again, even if your marriage relationship is strained and you're not getting that connection that you want there, we shouldn't be taking that to someone of the opposite gender. That's just going to create, I think, an avenue of danger. So those are some of the things that came to mind for me.

I think a helpful question too could be if the roles were reversed and my spouse had a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, what would I be comfortable or uncomfortable with? And that's not a perfect system, but it's like, if I knew my wife was texting, you know, one of our male friends privately and I didn't know about it and was, you know, they were going out to lunch or they were spending extended times chatting online or something like that, it's like, well, okay, I, I have some questions about that and have some concerns like, well, that could be a pretty good barometer of where you are with your relationships with the opposite sex. And so I think that's just maybe a helpful question as you're exploring this idea. But gosh, you could also ask, if you're married, ask your spouse, like, what levels of interaction are you comfortable with? And what's funny is we have a lot of couple friends and I'm also friends with the wife. But there are times where it's like, I have to make sure, is this, is this okay with Amy? Is she good with, you know, this kind of conversation? And yeah, I think that those kind of guardrails, to be proactive can also help you not ever step into this.

Yeah, I think just an awareness right there is so important. You know, being self aware, the fact that someone would ask the question and be aware is kind of put you steps ahead because it's what I would call a high risk scenario a lot of times. So with people, depending on the relationship, some, some couples are okay if, if you're friends with someone of the opposite sex and, and yet is it a high risk scenario for you? So I think it's just important to keep evaluating that. And then I think we do know if this is something where I'm, I'm desiring more emotional connection with them and less with my spouse, that would be an indicator, you know, that I'm crossing a line internally, even if my behavior hasn't. And that's where denial comes in for some people of like, I haven't crossed a line here, therefore it's fine. So just say that. Self awareness. And if you're going to side on good boundaries and protection around your heart because you have, you know, of your commitment and your values, then I think you're going to know I need to make an adjustment here.

Yep.

Yeah. I think as soon as you feel yourself justifying the relationship, it's an indicator that you're aware there's something there, you know, because if you're saying to yourself, well, at least it's not physical. It's like, well, why do you feel the need to say that? Well, at least we're not, we're not Kissing or we're not crossing these physical boundaries. It's like, again, you're feeling a need to justify what you are doing, which should be a danger zone. And totally agree, Traci. In light of our own story in history, we have to be aware of there may be even in health. We just know our story and say, I'm just not going to risk it. I'm not going to risk being in situations or private conversations that could either become a stumbling block for me or for the perception for my spouse or others could feel inappropriate. I just. I want nothing to do with it. You know, the Bible encourages us to be above reproach in this area. And I think if others would look at that and go, oh, you and this person privately text dozens of times a day, like, even if it's totally innocent, I think most people would have some concern about that. And I. I don't know that we'd be living above reproach now in that area. So there's not only the question of what's an emotional affair, there's even more, the question of what's just appropriate for the kind of life I want to live as a man or a woman of integrity, even if I'm not asking questions about is this or isn't this an emotional affair? So I got to say, kudos to Warren, because I feel like on all these FAQs, there's been a couple of Warrens, and I don't know if this is like, if we have five inquisitive Warrens that live all over the country.

I think there are two or I think two.

That's ironic, Warren.

Yeah.

Well, the other person that writes in the majority of the questions is this one. Anonymous. Oh, they said, what does healing from sexual betrayal look like when the addict uses their spouse as a form or as a part of their acting out? And what does healing look like if there was sexual abuse or rape inside a marriage?

Well, that second half of the question, I mean, not a simple answer, but if there's rape or abuse in a relationship, that's never okay. So I think it should be taken to outside help. But let's assume maybe that this couple has gotten help and they're trying to walk out their recovery and heal together, then I would say it's a long process of rebuilding trust and safety. Right. So once you get the truth out and then you're building on that with developing trust and safety. Safety. There's just a lot of elements to that. And to be able to build that again, and sometimes an Abstinence, again, can be a part of, of that rebuilding. So we're going to go back to kind of square one here and build a good foundation and build slowly upon that with the comfort of, you know, the spouse that's, you know, the least comfortable with having a sexual intimacy. Again, we're going to go with they're comfortable with and build upon that. So I think that's part of it. And the other part of the question, I'm just thinking of that process of retraining the brain and so there is that piece of again of truth and trust and safety and building emotional awareness with our spouse.

Yeah, yeah, Really. I mean, my mind just goes to safety is what's most important. Um, you know, and I, I also wrote down the period of abstinence. I think that that's super helpful and I think as a couple is going through that process. If that's what they've both, if that's what both partners feel like is what's helpful for them and create safety in the relationship, then as you maybe start to get into the reintegration of sex, like, be patient, go slow, it's not going to be jumping back in and let's get after it like when we did, when we first got married, maybe. But like, go really, really slow, give yourself tons of grace and know that it may be really challenging, that it may, like, you start to initiate, things are going well and then something gets triggered and it's like, no, no, no, I can't, I gotta, you know, I gotta back away. Those moments are really important. I think for a couple that how they handle those moments can help reinforce, okay, we're on the right path, headed in the right direction, or there's still a lot of work that we gotta do here. And so I think that it's just important to both partners, both spouses, as they're evaluating reintegrating sexually, to have those conversations outside of that context. Don't do it right as you're about to maybe try to engage, have a set aside time where that's not even on the table to have that conversation, establish some of those, hey, if this happens and you're not feeling safe, I need you to tell me and you just say it like this, I'll totally understand and then we'll reevaluate afterwards. So I just feel like those kind of things are helpful because what it's doing is it's prioritizing the marriage, not just one aspect of the marriage.

Yeah. I would want to say to anyone that's in this situation that you are in a very, very difficult situation, that it's like your pain has been amplified because not only have you discovered that your spouse has a sexual addiction or this kind of behavior, but that it's also been directly impacting what's been done to you and how it's been done. And I just think the emotional impact of that is going to be deep. And if you're grieving or hurting, I understand that's what I would expect if someone had to live through this. And so I just want to say, I'm sorry you're facing this. But that's also what would lead me to say, I really believe in these kind of instances that professional help is going to be a part of your process. Because it's going to be very difficult if it's just the two of you as a couple. Even if you're both in your own recovery group, it's going to be difficult for just the two of you to navigate alone. How do we re engage sexually without some wisdom and expertise and guidance from an outside voice that can help you walk through? And I think if you're that betrayed or wounded or abused spouse, to know that I'm not just taking my other spouse's. My husband's word for it, that he's better, but I'm really able to go off of some guidance from a professional who says, here's the kind of things you're looking for. Here's some benchmarks. So I would say don't do it alone. And I think there will definitely be a period of abstinence where sex needs to be off the table, because you can't just, I think, keep doing things the same way and hope it gets better. I believe you both will need a period where there's no pressure of that. There's no idea of that because we're establishing health in a new way. And when we re engage sexually, we intend for it to be an entirely different kind of relationship and not just assurances of, oh, I promise I'm not thinking about those things now, or I promise I'm not doing it just for me, I promise. Or that's not going to be enough. There really needs to be a new way of relating to one another. So I think that's crucial. And then would just, yeah, I mean, echo everything you guys said that be patient, be patient with one another, lots of communication. And if you are hanging on and making the marriage work after what you would describe as sexual abuse or sexual rape within your own marriage, you are being brave and courageous, and it's not going to be easy. I think it's possible to heal that marriage. But I would just say, again, you need to take the long view of this may take time. The other thing I've just heard from couples that I would say, too, while it takes time, there will come a point where if you're that betrayed or hurting spouse and you're watching your struggling or addicted spouse take all the right steps, engage with group, be sincere about their healing, honor your boundaries and their guardrails, there will still come a point that for you to move back towards sexual connection will be a risk on your part. Now, I'm not saying you should ignore safety or do it before you're ready, but at some point, sooner or later, to step back into that water will feel like risk. And I just think that's the reality of a couple that's trying to reengage after this level of activity. There will be risks and sacrifice. And I won't say sacrifice, because that could be misinterpreted. There will just be risks that they have to take to move out of their comfort zone to see if we can find a new way forward. And when you're at that point, you do it with prayer, do it with support from people that love you and with some guidance of how to do it best. So, yeah, this is not an easy one. But thankfully, by God's grace, we've seen couples navigate these waters and it is possible.

Yeah, I think I would also. I feel like it's important to say this. I don't know if I get said enough, but if it's at the point where your safety that, like, your spouse who has abused you or rape was involved, isn't willing to do the work, like, your safety is incredibly important. And that may mean exploring options about leaving the marriage, like, what that looks like. And I know that there's a lot of, you know, biblical stuff and, you know, theological perspectives that kind of carry on that. But we just want you to know that if this is your story and you are the partner who has experienced this, that your safety is extremely important and you should value that. Yeah.

Well, I think we should just point out that this, the way the question was asked, assumed that some healing is happening, that that struggling or addicted spouse is remorseful, repentant, and earnest and sincere about their change. Because I'm guessing there may be some people hear this question even and are triggered and like, well, if you're being abused and raped, like, you get out of there. You go to the Police. And there are certain. These circumstances that. That truly needs to happen. Yeah, but then there are other marriages where. Yeah. And in how they have decided to navigate it as a couple, they're moving forward in healing. And that's where our advice applies. If you are not seeing repentance and remorse and change from a spouse that's doing these things to you, then the answer to the question is 180 degrees difference.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's. There's some nuance there for sure. But yeah, I just wanted to point that out. Okay, let's move on to the next one. This one was sent in by Robert, and I'm sure we have a lot of Roberts who. Listen, Bob's. Bob's. Yeah, unless you go by Robert. Anyways, I'm watching a lot of Robert De Niro movies and I've been watching interviews and he's like. Everyone calls him Bob, but that's not how I know him. I know him. He's Robert De Niro. Anyways, Nick looks at me like, what are we talking about? Okay, so the question from Robert is, what did freedom from addiction or recovery look like before this ministry started? Did it exist? What's the history of recovery from sexual addiction? I think this is a very interesting question.

I like that question. Yeah. So you guys are looking to me to answer that question.

We're just letting you be the guest. You're on all of these.

Yeah, right. Well, I do know that. I mean, I know of essay. I know of Cliff and Joyce Pinner. There's some people that have been doing this for a good 50 years. So I know that now, before that, they may not have called it sexual addiction. Right. Because it's evolved over time. Even since we've been a part of, or I guess since Pure Desire started. And then we have. It just keeps evolving. As far as what people know, how we understand the brain and addiction and recovery, we learn from people's experiences. And I really think too years ago, it wasn't talked about. So it was there, but it wasn't talked about as much as hopefully as it is now so that it's more exposed. But it's definitely been around a while. I would say just for my. My first thought when I was thinking about what did people do before they knew about sexual addiction? Or there were ministries like Pure Desire. People had the resources they had and they did the best with what they had. So I think if the opposite of addiction is intimacy or connection, then people found a way to be intimate or to connect. They had new Opposite experiences, new ways of seeing things and practicing and walking them out. So that's what I would say, because we know that sexual behavior, sexual acting out, has been gone on for all of history.

I think about that in the late 70s or the 80s, mid-80s, the Dr. Patrick Carnes is kind of given credit for coining the phrase sexual addiction and making it more a public conversation that hey, this is a real thing. People get caught up in behaviors, that it becomes a brain issue. And then that started to coincide I think in the 90s and even 2000s, where we started to learn a lot more about the brain and that those same processes of the chemical release and the high and followed by then the lows and then tolerance and the need for escalation for more and more. Just like what was happening in drug addiction and alcohol addiction was happening to people in their sexuality. So there was some learning that took place there. And I think prior to that, from what I would understand, one thing to keep in mind is when we're going back prior to the 90s, you're talking about a real change in how people would have accessed pornographic material and sexual addiction, that they had to go somewhere, they had to buy something, they had to go to a strip club, call a 1900 number. It often took time, money and effort in ways that we don't see now to that same degree. So by the time someone was willing to face their behavior as potentially in a sexual addiction, even if they didn't call it that, it was more the extreme cases and I think particularly in Christian circles, a lifestyle of avoidance, of just learning to be wise about where I went and who I associated with, was overall much more successful because there just weren't as many places to easily and readily access pornography. And that's one of the things we've talked about. The game changed in the mid to late 90s when home Internet became the norm, and then again when the smartphone became the norm in 2010, 2011, the game truly changed. Because what once people had to go and do publicly now was at their fingertips, in the privacy of any place they were, with access to the Internet. And it really is. I've told people we're living in the world's greatest social experiment that we've ever seen. And I think we're going to look back and realize that we got flooded by images and a culture of pornography that we were not ready to handle. And we're going to see long term the damaging effects on our society. And so to say it that way, what people did before, well I think you could be more successful to preach the word of God, to be honest with your brothers, if you're struggling with lust, to get prayed for. And then just make sure you didn't go to that video store or walk by that part of town. And it wasn't the same as carrying that access everywhere you go. And I just think when I think of that history, it ought to raise the level in us of our desire to respond and to do something different, that we aren't just relying on avoidance anymore. We're not just relying on, well, make a few smart choices and you can be free of this. We're dealing with a whole new ballgame. And so I think in some ways, like we've talked about it at Pure Desire, that I believe God brought this ministry into existence along with several others. It's amazing if you look at the timeline, how many sexual addiction recovery ministries were birthed in the 2000s, because I think God was raising them up for such a time as this, for such a time as where our world would be inundated with this battle, that there would be people ready to respond. And so I would just end with that for you, Robert. I think in some ways, we are facing a social predicament that no other generation had to face. Now, certainly, sexual desire and lust and acting out is not new, but the context in which it's happening for us is at a level of intensity and availability that no one has seen before. And so we're needing to develop new systems of how do we respond and how do we respond broadly as churches and communities and families, so that we can help people learn to be resilient to the porn that is now all around them.

Yeah. The only two things I had to add were just therapy was something that's existed for a long time, clinical care in that sense, and then also trauma work. I know that the research has really expanded our understanding of trauma and how to help with it today, but, yeah, trauma work, also, those are two things that I think existed before Pure Desire.

Yes. Okay, next one. Tracy, again, by one of our good friends, Anonymous, where in the progression of going from dating to engagement and then ultimately marriage, do you disclose parts of your story or negative sexual history? So when you're working with a young couple, a young man or young woman, what kind of advice do you give them about when's the right timing in that relationship to begin opening these parts of my story?

Well, I was kind of trying to think through the lens of our present culture, which it's pretty blatantly Open sexuality is just talked about so openly.

Yeah.

So for me, I think now, you know, in this generation, sharing earlier is better. It's not a shocking cultural taboo to talk about sexuality. I always have felt that prior to engagement is the time to make sure that you've been fully honest with history. Because people need to know going into an engagement period and a marriage, who they're choosing, what. What the history is. And the. The person sharing it needs to go in not wearing a mask, but being able to have, you know, really know that that person chose them. And to have real intimacy, you need that. You need to be able to build it on truth and on trust.

Yeah.

So I definitely always think prior to engagement what you share. I mean, I think having some support around how you share and what you share. I think earlier, even as I said, you know, there's not a lot of cultural taboos how we share. It can be, I'm in a group, you know, I'm looking at this area of my life, I'm getting healthy, versus we don't always need to share details. And there sometimes they're not that helpful.

Right.

So reaching out to someone, maybe older than us or a mentor, someone that can help us know, how do I share that, what do I share and how much do I share? I think that could be part of this question as well.

I'm wondering too, if this person who asked is single and thinking, like, if that's you, Mr. Or Mrs. Anonymous, that you would do the work now that isn't going to create this opportunity for this big blowup or this aha. Or the surprise moment in a relationship. You know, Tracy, originally I had also written before engagement, I just feel like that's. They are due that honor of knowing what they're saying yes to and getting into. But I think it kind of depends. Like, have you been in group? Do you understand your story? Feel like if you do, there's, you know, elements you could absolutely do earlier. But if it's for sure, the latest would be before engagement. I think it's really important to emphasize doing the work of preparing your full disclosure. Cause I really do think what you said, what you say, how you say it, when you say it is important. But I think that that's the importance of having a group or a clinician walking you through preparing a full disclosure to make sure that you're not leaving anything out so that you can protect yourself. They'll say yes, that kind of thing. Because the worst thing you can do in that moment is withhold information that Comes out later and then blows up the relationship even more. Because if you're able to do a full disclosure, you're working in recovery, you've created some trust because of being able to have this experience with hopefully this individual who you'd like to marry. If they say yes, they say yes. With all the information at hand, they're not gonna be feeling duped a couple years in. And so again, I kind of go back to, if you're single and you're asking this question, start a recovery process now. If you have any level of struggle, because you would rather be so prepared for this moment and understand it than to have no idea what's going on. And then exposure happens later in marriage and it blows up everyone's life.

Yeah. Not to disagree with you, but to make a slightly different point on that, I'd be thoughtful as a single person about preparing a full disclosure with the expectation that I'm going to share this in a dating relationship. Because part of the reality is the need for full disclosure in a marriage is because the spouse has been hurt and betrayed by the behaviors of their partner. And so if you're in a dating relationship where the things you're disclosing are primarily or exclusively in the past and not in the timeframe you've been dating, it may be worth asking the question, how much do they even want to know? How much Nitty gritty. I mean, I think, yes, you need to cover the big bones. I think you need to cover the kind of the main topics, but then from there, kind of have some sensitivity to what is helpful to them versus just feeling. I think sometimes in recovery we can feel there's this obligation to just back up the full dump truck and unload everything in that one conversation. And it's like, the relationship may not need that right now, and depending on person to person, they may not even want that. And so the word I wrote down about this, I know it sounds revolutionary, but I think we should ask the person first. Even if we think, okay, I think the timing is right. I would ask them and say, you know, I feel like we're growing close, we're getting to know each other, and I see this relationship going somewhere. Would it be okay if I shared with you some of my decision making and around my sexuality before we were dating? Or I think just giving them the ability to say, I'm not ready for that. Or maybe I don't think we're as close as you think we are. Because when I think of, like, what's the right timing to me, it's. The more you're getting a sense of that this is a relationship that could last, that could be long term, the greater the need for that level of transparency and vulnerability. You know, it's like if you have a coworker, if you're at work and you have someone who comes in for a temp for one day, you don't unload the whole plan and give them all the. It's like, well, they got one day. How long are they going to be here? Just help with this one area. But if you know this is a long term employee that's going to be here for the long haul, well, they need to be clued in on everything. They need to know what we're facing. And I think that we could kind of take to relationships. When you're just going on a date or two, you're getting to know someone, like focus on getting to know them and trying to figure out, do we have the kind of fit that this could be a pretty serious thing. But like I said, the more that sense for you grows, this is serious. And I think it's moving in a more serious direction. The greater the need for vulnerability comes. And then as you start to take those steps, I think taking your cues from the other person of what are they ready for, what do they want to know? Um, and, and being willing to share. Because what we do want to avoid, that we've heard unfortunately in a couple of stories. And it just, it's heartbreaking. It's. It's when stuff comes out on the honeymoon that's like, oh, well, I never told you. And it's like, ouch. That, that should never be the moment of surprise for them to find out you've had an active battle with pornography, even if you're working on it, but it's still there. Like, yeah, that's too. Yeah. So we've talked about this before, that the first date's probably too soon, the wedding night's too late, and in between, there is a lot of the Holy Spirit's leading and kind of trusting the timing of the relationship to read the room and start having that conversation and.

Get support on what to share, how much to share and what I just think that is, that's so important. You want to start your marriage in a healthy way. And so getting some support on how do I share this? What do I share? I think that's, that's a really important piece. Yeah.

Yeah. Well said.

Well, let's wrap this up. We got one more question. And again, we're grateful for people sending these in. This one was sent in by Heather. And the question is, how do we deal with anniversaries of traumatic events?

Well, I was think just anticipating this, it will probably have some emotional impact on you. So if you've already gone around the anniversary, you may know that and you may know that, okay, every year about this time I have this experience or start to feel these emotions or sometimes I feel off and I don't know that it's an anniversary or something. And then I'm like, I become aware of that. But maybe just knowing that for some people you might not just know that. And then if you do, anticipating that I may feel something, I may need to talk a little bit more about my emotions. And then I would just say be honest about how you're feeling. Be realistic about expectations on yourself. So if it's about a day or a week or something like that, around that time, maybe it's taking a little pressure off yourself. Maybe I need to reflect a little more. I need to have some self care, do some journaling. Sometimes there's some rituals around grief that are really important. So any kind of loss, not just if someone passes away or if we've been through a divorce, but any kind of major loss or trauma in our lives can really bring around that grief and it's okay. And it's normal for grief to come back around and be a big wave that knocks us over when we kind of thought we were through that to the other side.

Yeah. When I first read this question, I thought about it from a slightly different angle. Just maybe this is for a couple of listeners out there. But I want to say you don't have to remember the dates. I know sometimes things happen. It's unavoidable. You're going to remember that date for the rest of your life, whether you try to or not. But on the flip side, just know. It's not important that you know, well, this was the day on which I started my journey and I need to remember it so I can tell people how long it's been. Or like if remembering it is actually part of the trauma and it's better to just try to let it go and not keep track of how long it's like you've got the freedom to do that. But I sense that the person who asked this question, they can't avoid remembering, well, that's the day my marriage blew up, or that's the day they left, or that's the day this happened. And because of the timing, the stories we hear that it was on someone's birthday or it was on a holiday or it was on whatever day. They can't disassociate the day from the event and it'll be with them probably for many years. What comes to mind is just what we do with other anniversaries. The more you prepare, the better they tend to go. Right. So if my wedding anniversary comes up and I wake up on the morning of and go, oh, it's my anniversary, I can pull some things together and make it work, but it's not going to be near what it could be. If a month out, I'm like, okay, my anniversary is coming up. What do I do to make my wife feel special? What's something fun? What plans could we pull together? What are we going to do for the kids? Like then when we get to that day, it's much more likely to go how I want. And I think when it's traumatic, if we know, okay, I'm a month out from D day or whatever I call it and we know I need some support that day, I'm going to actually invite a friend to come hang out with me or I'm going to actually take that day off work because I know I'm not going to function real well. So I'm going to plan healthy, fun things almost as a way to start reversing how I think of that day. I'm going to do something meaningful as a memento to say, this isn't my identity anymore, this doesn't define me. I'm going to invite my group to do something with me on that day. So I, I just think the more we prepare rather than making it more traumatic when we get there, we can feel like it's okay. This is going to be the one year mark, but I'm really looking forward to some things I'm going to do on that day to celebrate that. This doesn't define me and what God is currently doing in my life. And then I think as the grief comes, we are present to it, but we won't feel the need perhaps to escape or run from it because we've been getting ready by putting a few things in place that can help us navigate maybe the strong emotions we expect to feel that day.

Yeah, I wrote down to schedule self care before, during and after. I think obviously you guys have both talked about preparation in the day of but I think that piece too of they're gonna be potentially some lingering effects the days after. And so making sure that you, you know, and one of My favorite quotes is what gets scheduled, gets done. And so if you're scheduling self care and putting it in place, you're preparing yourself emotionally for it. You have self care in, you know, on the day or during the week or whatever of that traumatic experience and then after you're still continuing to care for yourself. And I think that, you know, and you guys have mentioned it in kind of in other ways, but just inviting other people into that I think is also helpful knowing that you don't have to share that burden. Maybe the person you're spending time with didn't have the same traumatic experience on that day, but if they're a good friend, they do want to be with you. And look, if you have like fun self care things to do, who doesn't want to be a friend who does fun self care things with you? So yeah, that's my thought.

And I think just remembering that mourning and celebrating can coexist. So we may have still grief coming up and yet we're celebrating. Sometimes we're celebrating that we made it through the worst time for life or the worst situation we ever thought we would go through.

Yeah.

And other times we're celebrating our progress as a couple or as an individual.

Yeah.

Our growth and our healing. So I remember a year after my husband and I started walking out recovery together, we built an altar and said a prayer and definitely everything wasn't all fixed and rosy and feeling great again by that time. But we had some things that we had walked through together that were so tough and that we could celebrate some things in that or at least just sit there and cry and thank God that God walked through it with us. And then at our 10 year mark, we went back to the same place and built an altar again. And definitely there was more to celebrate and it was lighter than that first time. But I think just remembering to celebrate and remembering even to celebrate our resilience, if nothing else is so important, that's super cool.

I love that. Don't just remember the trauma or the pain, but find ways to mark the growth that's occurred because of it. And maybe that's something you're getting to do like Traci's story with your spouse. Or maybe you're now doing it alone and that's part of the grief. But you can also look at yourself and see how did God sustain me through it? What's happened in the last year that I'm meeting God in new ways or he's brought new friends into my life. I think even if there's still traumatic things currently happening. It can be that moment to just look back and reflect and say, God, where have you been in the time since this happened? And I think if that becomes the regular rhythm over time, the weight of that day, just like Traci's story 10 years later, was different than one year later. That if you take time to reflect on God's goodness and provision and what he's done in the last year, and that's happening year in and year out, you might get to a point that date actually becomes kind of sacred of it's my mark of how God is sustaining me and it's part of my story. And we see all the time that God transforms pain into purpose. He transforms those trauma experiences into our growth and the message we have for others. And if you're not there right now, that's great, that's fine. Right now you may just be in the moving through grief and preparing for that. But I think if you can hear from others and believe that one day this mark in my journey might look really different, that can help you keep moving through them with faith and confidence.

Yeah, we covered a lot and this is again why we love these episodes. So many different things, topics to talk about. And again, like I said, if you want to send in your questions, I get all of the emails and I see these. Send your question or your topic suggestion to podcasturedesire.org Tracy thanks for your time, your perspective. We always love having you with us.

You're welcome. Nice to hang out with you today and be good questions.

That's right. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, you can go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.