353 - Becoming A Compassionate Warrior

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 353 of the Pure Desire podcast Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

You shall not pass.

Okay, serious question. Like, I just. Okay, so I just started reading Harry Potter to my 7 year old and I growing up, you know that's not.

From Harry Potter, right?

Let me get there.

Okay. I'm just making sure.

And that's Gandalf from Lord of the Rings. And specifically, I believe, is that Fellowship of the Ring or is that the two first Fellowship? Okay, so growing up there was a very heavy move against Harry Potter and, and wizards. And then I realized when I got older, Gandalf's a wizard and he's in Lord of the Rings and it's widely accepted and I'm sure there's other things I don't know, but I just, I'm expressing a frustration I had in my childhood that it was just not okay yet. We saw witches in Chronicles of Narnia and we had wizards in Lord of the Rings.

You know, CS Lewis was good friends with JRR Tolkien and Lewis is like on the Mount Rushmore of Christian authors. I think you're not wrong.

You're not wrong.

In the 70s and 80s for Christians, it's like, well, this is kind of that same English writing style. And these are really good men that have written some theological stuff. So we can trust their use of witches and wizards. But if J.K. rowling, an acknowledged atheist, starts to use spells and things, then we got all freaked out. So I think people looked at the roots, but yeah, there was some cognitive dissonance taking place there where Christians were up in arms about one and then definitely not realizing they were saying contradictory things about other books. So totally.

Okay, I'll get off my high horse there for a second. But we had Bob Vandermeer, one of our clinicians, back on the show today, and it had been a while. It was good to have him back on with us. And he's one of the contributors to our newest resource, the Compassionate Warrior. And we really just talked about the resource, what's in it, and what can come from it.

Yeah, and really the framework of the Compassionate Warrior is built around something that Joseph Campbell developed called the Way. I mean, the Hero's Odysse or the Hero's Journey. We used a lot of phrases.

So many different. Yeah, totally.

And Ted calls it the way of the Warrior.

That's right.

But it's a progression that actually we see in the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter and so many other movies that we all love and enjoy. The main character, when you start to break it down, goes on this journey that includes all these obstacles and hurdles along the way. But there's an arc to it that is just so familiar. And as it turns out, we're actually walking through that arc as a part of our journey from, you know, addiction or brokenness or struggle into the kind of life God is calling us to. And it's helping men in a new way see the journey they're on. And there will be obstacles. You know, there. There will be the bridge of Khazad Dum and Gandalf having to stop the Balrog. The Balrog from attacking them. I mean, that. That was a big part of their story. And we've got moments in our story that are equally in terms of our own lives, are important to navigate and get through so that we can get on to the next phase of. Of what God is leading us to. So, yeah, I love the episode, and I think it really hopefully will whet the appetites for men who've been thinking about a compassionate warrior group but haven't jumped in yet. And if you're someone who's at the front end of your healing, we do discuss a lot of principles of healing in this episode of what to expect on the journey that I hope if you've never done Seven Pillars of freedom, don't jump ahead because you really do need the foundational work. We use a couple of illustrations in the podcast to describe this journey. If you miss, the first phase is like, the next parts aren't gonna make sense or you're not gonna be ready. So if you love what you hear today and you've not done any group, use it as that encouragement to jump into a Seven Pillars of Freedom or for women into unraveled and really get your journey started because there's so many exciting things that can happen when we're engaged in the process.

I'm realizing I should go back and watch all of the Lord of the Rings movies again. So thank you for that. But, yes, this is a great episode, and Bob definitely helps us understand this resource a little bit better. So here's our time with Bob Vandermeer on becoming a compassionate warrior. Bob Vandermeer, welcome back to the podcast, my friend. It has been a while. We're glad to have you back.

Yeah, thanks for having me back. It's Great to be here.

Yes. You're not sick. Everything's fine. It's just been a little bit. And so we're great to have you back. It's not like anything tragic has happened, but we are. Yeah, we're glad to have you back. And you have a session after this, so you can't be here in office, in the studio, which is. We're like a little sad. Ish for some of us, but it's okay. But with our time today, in the last year or so we've released a new resource called the Compassionate Warrior. And you, Bob, had the opportunity to be a contributor with Dr. Ted with Diane on this. And so we wanted to lean in and just talk about the resource, what it is, who it's for, all of that, knowing that maybe there are some people who follow our ministry or have listened to the show that aren't aware of this product. So we want to make sure that they're aware of it and talk through what's included. So for honestly years, I think the story I've heard four years, I've heard five years, I've heard seven years that Dr. Ted. Dr. Ted Roberts, who's including Diane Roberts and you, Robert, and I realize that's a lot of Roberts that are mixed up in there. It's perfect. Have been working on the Compassionate Warrior for a long time. But just flat out, what is this resource and why was it a need for men in recovery?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think a lot of the ideas that are in there are things that Dr. Ted has been, you know, stewing on, percolating on some other cooking analogy on for a long time. And it was feel like it was maybe six to seven years ago that we had counselors like annual meeting where we're doing some continuing education. And Ted was like, hey, we need to write this book. And then, yeah, a lot of work and love and sweat and tears went into it since then. And so the book is a workbook as well as weekly tools. And really it's meant as a follow up to Seven Pillars. But it's really, I think, and obviously you guys love to hear how you phrase this, like just continuing down the road. Right. It's for guys that have already been in recovery for a while. They've been working through things, trauma, learning, tools, gaining sobriety. But it's kind of like how do we continue that? How do we perpetuate it? And for a lot of guys, they get to a place after the Seven Pillars where they are kind of like, what's next and they feel a little stalled out. And so, you know, wanting to build more durability in their recovery around sobriety, but then also, just, like, emotional health. And so this resource, a Compassionate Warrior, really helps, like, them in that moment. And. And it does it in a really cool way to help them help. Help guys see themselves in their own story. Right. Kind of in this. Creating a coherent narrative.

Yeah. I remember, Bob, when I came on staff, was probably about the time you were hearing about this resource for the first time at a counselor's team meeting. And I was hearing about it from Ted directly, like, we're going to write this, this workbook. And I'm like, great, let me know when you got a rough draft and we'll talk it over. And it went through many, many iterations. But what I recall going back. So, yes, it's the answer to the question, well, what should I do after Seven Pillars? How do I continue my growth? Well, the Compassionate Warrior is that next phase. But what I think really prompted Dr. Ted, and we talked about this a little bit on the initial podcast when we launched the Compassionate Warrior, is Ted was seeing guys come back to him after a year or two of sobriety and. And yet acknowledge they were still stuck in something and sometimes having maybe a relapse down the road, or not necessarily relapse, but just feeling like they've gotten stalled out in their recovery. And Ted really was developing the idea then of the five brain bugs is what I heard him start to talk about. And those are incorporated into this workbook. But for him, the bugs weren't crittering little insects, but bugs were, like, in a computer system that when something clogs down your whole process and system and you just can't get stuff to work. He felt like that was happening for men in recovery, that there would be this initial phase of sobriety, of momentum, of freedom. It's, like, really addressed. The behavior itself got addressed, but there were deeper issues that, you know, one time through Seven Pillars hadn't given guys enough time to really develop that renewed mind, that new way of thinking. And he was just seeing some of these consistent areas where guys were getting stuck after that initial year of sobriety. And so I do think it's an appropriate next layer of healing to say, as you've learned the principles of Seven Pillars, you've understood some of your trauma, you've understood the lies that you listened to because of your trauma. You can see the ways that you've learned to cope and medicate pain in your life, and the pattern you can get stuck in some of those initial pieces are needed. This is then going deeper into your story, deeper into where you might be getting stuck or hung up so that you can really pursue healing in another season of life as you go into those deeper things.

And I know that we'll get into it a little bit with you, Bob. Get into like story work in the sense of like not just processing the story from the past, but what does the rest of your life look like in health? What does the legacy you're creating look like? And I think that that's what makes this one unique as well, is that it's, you know, that continuation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of. A lot of guys are like, I'm doing all this stuff, right? I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this like, but I'm. I'm still like, not to the place that I want to be.

Yeah.

And that's, I think, what a lot of us experience in a lot of areas of health.

Yeah. So as were mentioned, Bob, that this is the follow up resource to Seven Pillars of Freedom. What would you say, though, is different about this workbook and this journey and makes it unique compared to what men may have experienced in the Seven Pillars of Freedom?

Yeah, I mean, Seven Pillars of Freedom is it follows a task oriented or a task centered model. Right. And in the way that it's laid out and the ideas behind it very adjacent to Patrick Carnes work with task centered recovery. And so there's a lot of tasks, Right. There's steps that we're working through in that. And we're introduced in the Seven Pillars to a lot of great clinical tools and solid theology and the confluence of those two things. Right. And getting it to be. Getting guys to dive in really maybe for the first time into some of that deeper work. But in the Compassionate Warrior, it follows more of this narrative structure. Yeah. And we'll unpack that more in some following questions. But it follows this narrative and it's diving deeper into the person's own story with them as the main character and these other tasks and tools. And Seven Pillars are phenomenal. You get a lot of stuff, but this is kind of taking all of that foundational work they've done and putting it into this new character arc for them. And the idea of a coherent narrative is really, really important in recovery. And I think the Compassionate Warrior does that really well.

Yeah, I think too. And I have yet to actually go through the resource as part of the review process and all that. When it came out. But just thinking about, what does it look like for me to be a holistically healthy person and what does my best self look like in these areas? And I know some of it has to do with emotional health and understanding that and how I process through that, where I think even my first couple times through Seven Pillars was really focused on stopping a behavior where compassionate warrior kind of helps you think about also how you're crafting this new life that you have. And I feel like that's something that a lot of us lose sight of. We've talked about this a lot on the show, and I know our friend Jay Stringer has mentioned some stuff like that, that people who struggle with unwanted sexual behavior tend to lack vision for their life or purpose. And I think that this resource is a part of helping you craft that purpose, what that looks like, that you're not just this recovering addict, but that you also have a future, and you have passions, you have things that the Lord has crafted you for. And I think that it just kind of casts that vision a little bit more.

Yeah, I think a little bit of the illustration of, like, a construction project. And right now, there's a huge housing project going on across the street from my house, so it's on my mind a lot. And there's beeping trucks every morning.

Constant illustration.

Yeah. But, you know, when you start a construction project with just bare ground, you know, it's kind of the chaos of addiction. Like, things don't make sense. You're doing the stuff you wish you didn't want to do. Like, there is just nothing there that's helpful. And in the Seven Pillars of Freedom, it's like you clear the ground, you put in the foundation, you get the framework for the house. And it is so much progress. It is so much better. It's like, oh, my gosh, this looks like a house now. But if you drive by construction, there's all the stages where it looks like a house, but it's a long way from complete. There's still no windows. There's no doors. It still needs shingles and siding and paint and all the things that make it look like a home. You'd say, I want to live there, because now it looks ready. In some ways, Seven Pillars is that framework. And I think the compassionate warrior is kind of putting the life into that framework. As you said, Bob, like, understanding your story in the Seven Pillars, you probably identified some trauma, which for a lot of us as men, was maybe the first time we even considered we had much trauma. And we started to understand it. Well, the Compassionate Warrior, you're going to start to frame that as part of your story and understand deeper maybe the lies you listen to and how that's impacting other parts of your story. And then processing, how do I then take that into my relationships or into my marriage? And what does it look like for me to unravel some of those false patterns that I've learned and begin to relate to people in healthier ways? And how do I get other people's help around me to mentor me and guide me along that process? Because I am still a long ways away from completed. And we've talked about, we're always in process, but I think the Compassionate Warrior, it's going to start to put some new life and texture and form to good pieces that are there but aren't quite to a place of completion or of being really something that will be your new pattern. I know that was Ted's heart too, in this. He said he wants to make sure this becomes a guy's new pattern for life. And I think seven Pillars sets you up for that, but it doesn't maybe give you the keys to make it a new normal for a lifelong pattern. So that's really, I think, what's happening in the Compassionate Warrior.

Yeah, that's a great analogy. I'm going to use another one in a couple questions. But like, it's like, it's like there's, there's, you know, let's say seven Pillars gives you a house. Compassionate Warrior gives you a home. Right? Like, yeah. So gives you this outer structure. I've heard you write Compassionate Warrior gives you shingles.

Well, let's not go too far with that.

Wow.

Yeah, that one. Yeah.

But it's like, but it, but Compassionate Warrior, it like it feels, it feels, it fills the shell and it makes it someplace where you're living. Right? Yeah, It's a great analogy, Nick, that like it's. Yeah, it's like putting the, you need all the fixtures in the house. Right. You can have a kitchen, but if you have light in there, you're not going to be able to. So it's like you're putting these really like livable, long term things into the hard work that you've already been doing and building the structure of sobriety and health.

Yeah, yeah.

So one of the primary themes of Compassionate Warrior is the hero's journey. Or because it's. Dr. Ted, he calls it the way of the Warrior.

I love it.

It's just so Dr. Ted, what is the hero's journey or the way of the Warrior. And how is this theme helpful in our continued journey of recovery?

Yeah. Joseph Campbell came up with this idea of the hero's journey. And in the Hero's Journey, there's this idea that everyone. And he looked at literature, and he looked at kind of the narrative of literature, and to see the character arc, really, that people were going on and the journey that they were on in their own individual work. And. And what was really incredible with that, he wrote a book called the Hero of a Thousand Faces, just to say that we're all in this same trope, Right. And, like, all in the same, like, humanity is in this ubiquitous journey where we're all, like, we all born and we all die, and really, like, this journey of relationship and struggle and shame and everything in between those two bookended events is the same for us. And, you know, he saw it in literature, but that was really this reflection of what was happening in humanity. And. And it. And it really helped people to understand and to see themselves in the stories that they're reading. Right. I mean, that's why we can associate with. With almost every character in a book that we read or a movie that we watch. And then Ted, obviously, like you said, tweaked it to his own language, which Ted tweaks. That should be, like, maybe a whole other podcast.

Right.

Like, Ted tweaks where he takes something that was already phenomenal and, like, makes it better.

Yeah, that's cool.

Right? And so, yeah, it's. It's structured based off of Joseph Campbell's work with the Hero's journey and the Hero of a Thousand Faces.

Yeah. And it's one of the, I think, intriguing and fun elements for a lot of us in the Compassionate Warrior is that Ted does reference a lot of the big movie franchises that are out there, and you start to piece together, like, oh, wow, this is what happens. This arc happens in Star wars and the Lord of the Rings and Superman and so many of the Marvel Avengers comic and superheroes. It's like this is a pattern that we kind of live through and then seeing through a biblical lens that there's some truth to that for us as well, that we're learning to live in a different way and in a sense, you know, becoming the hero of our own story because we're becoming someone that we can be proud of. You know, we've talked a lot on this podcast about, you know, Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, and our ability to deeply engage in love of another person is very, very difficult. If we don't know how to love and accept ourselves and how God has made us. And every one of us is made unique and has different skills and gifts and character traits. But every one of us, in a sense, is like, I think, designed by God to reflect his image and to be the hero of our own story. And I don't want to get caught up in, like, performance or winning or. It's not about success, but it's just about being comfortable in our own skin to be the main character in our own story. Like, I need to live into the story God's brought me into. And that may mean going through this journey of accepting some things, of realizing limitations, but also risking and jumping into unknown things because I believe in the one who's calling me and leading me into something bigger than myself. And it just. You start to realize, like, there's something kind of hardwired into our thinking that this journey, I think, represents. And then, of course, you know, in Ted fashion, it's all coming back to scripture and what is God doing in our lives. And so I think it's kind of a helpful framework that throughout the process, you can look back to the graphic we created and say, oh, okay, here's kind of where we are in this journey. And the differences Bob was kind of mentioning, like pillars are. We call it pillars on purpose because we don't want for people to see them as steps. Like you had to do step one steps, like it's. These are all foundational elements. And in this regard, the journey is a little bit more progressive. Like, here's some phases that we can start to look for in our journey and identify maybe where's the one we're most at right now, but also have a picture of where we headed in the next phases of our journey.

You know, there's been research done too that the art of storytelling is the primary way that the human brain takes input information. So if you are to give someone a lecture or have them read a manual or something like that, they can digest that information, but they burn a lot of calories where you burn fewer calories and understand things at a deeper level when hearing things through story. And if people want to argue the research, I think you just need to go back and see, well, what did Jesus use to communicate? And it was story. And so I think that even on just like a human biological level, we are made with this framework built in that we are on this journey in this story. And so I think that that's what makes it most helpful is because you get to drop yourself in the story and get to kind of craft that too. It's cool.

So, Bob, for those that are maybe interested in the group or thinking about doing one at some point, talk us kind of through what's included in the resource. Maybe some of the topics that they can expect to have covered. And what would their weekly work look like in the Compassionate Warrior as opposed to what they may have experienced in a Seven Pillars of Freedom group.

Yeah, yeah, you said something, Nick, with this last topic or question that helping people to see themselves as the hero of their own story. And one of the things I like about the Compassionate Warrior is it. It hits the ground running in the intro. It asks really where you. Where are you right now? Right. Like the very first question in the introduction is asking about, where are you at? Like, let's start there. And the reality is, though we might be the hero, you know, the main character of our. Of our whole story, we are not the hero of every scene. Yeah, right. And starting out, where are you at? Let's just start there. Like, don't try and. And like, force yourself into being a hero right now because you might not be the hero right now. Right. And what's the first question of the first chapter? Basically says, like, what are some of the craziest things you've done in your addiction, in your addictive behavior? So the very first question of chapter one is let's like, be honest. Like, how. How far from the person that you want to be has your addiction taken you? Like, let's start with the reality of that and move forward from there. And so just, I mean, again, and I think head fashion, but also in just the fashion of the placement of this resource in recovery is let's just start out with some honest reflection on where you're at and also the reality of where you've been. And let's work forward from there because a lot of guys compare themselves in group, right? Like, they're. They're comparing themselves even in Compassionate Warrior groups. They're like, well, I'm here, but other guys are there. And not everybody's at the same place now, right? I mean, people don't start seven pillars at the same place. We use an assessment called the Sexual Dependency Inventory and the sas. The Sexual Addiction Screening Test is part of the seven pillars, but the score is there. If you score between 6 and 20, you're within the clinical range. Well, a 6 is way different than a 20.

Totally.

Yeah.

Right. And so a lot of guys are like, well, I'm here, but they're there. What's wrong with me? Well, you might be a 16 and they might be an 8 in that clinical range, your journey is different. And so the Compassionate Warrior really helps guys to say, where are you right now? Let's start from there. And so, you know, working through that book, there's a lot of, it's kind of like as if Seven Pillars is like, let's just say resetting a broken arm. This is the other analogy. Seven Pillars is like resetting a broken arm and then putting a cast on it, building some structure and then by the end of the book you get the cast taken off. Then Compassionate warriors, like is like the, the physical therapy that comes after, right? Like, and there's a lot of pain and a lot of hard work that goes into Seven Pillars. But the physical therapy part of really going on to, to live a fruitful, thriving life, I feel like that's what Compassionate Warrior does really, really well. And so it's going to have you walk through difficult, deep, honest work. The same topics that you addressed in Seven Pillars, you're going to address those here, that you're going to address shame and relationship, addiction, identity, all of the stuff really that you were doing at Seven Pillars, but you're going to be doing it in a way that, that isn't just about sobriety and addressing trauma for the first time, but it's about, about thriving. Right? Like, you don't just want a broken arm, so it's not broken. You want a broken arm so you can use it and you want to be able to use it to actually do things that, that lead to a fruitful life. So I feel like Compassionate Warrior takes all the same stuff that you've been doing, but it puts it into a, even a more forward thinking perspective of thriving. It's like Lazarus coming out of the tomb, right? Like he came out of the tomb miracle. But then Jesus still has to say untime and let him go. Like Jesus didn't raise him from the dead to just stand there in a graveyard, right? Raised him from the dead to go and live a thriving life. And I feel like that's a compassionate warrior. Really does well.

Yeah, yeah. In terms of weekly work too, I'd say there is a workbook, there are weekly tools. So it's a two workbook set like we have in a lot of our groups and the bulk of the work you'll do together out of the workbook and then we recommend groups still do a check in time and a commitment to change at the end. But because everybody's been through the seven pillars. I'm hearing that groups are able to navigate the check in and the commitment to change faster. So it's not so much a 40, 60, 20 plan in terms of minutes. There may be more time spent on the workbook. And the weekly tools isn't just your check in and commitment to change. It also includes some what we'd call emotional growth opportunities, some learning tools. And I've heard groups use it differently. So some groups will implement that as part of the workbook discussion time. And it might be more like a 20, 20, 60, 20 plan or, you know, they'll spend some time on the weekly tools lessons there. And then other groups like the one I'm leading, I'm choosing to say to the guys like, hey, I'd rather we spend the bulk of our time in the chapters, the workbook itself and if we have time, we'll discuss some of the weekly tools. But some weeks, depending on time we got a full group, we may not be able to prioritize that as much. That may be more on your own or with a mentor or a friend. And so I think there's a little bit of flexibility with that. But I'd say in general, you can expect the same approach of using a faster scale and some good questions to do a check in. Having a game plan by the end of the meeting to say, here's what I'm working on this week and then spending the bulk of the time coming and processing the work that you've been doing during the week out of the chapters. Because I think that pattern of bringing to group what I'm learning versus just coming to group and talking about a chapter is really fundamental to the effectiveness of groups. And so that kind of component or pattern is really, really similar to what you've seen in seven Pillars.

And I think that that's to be expected with seven pillars being something that's supposed to help you stop an unwanted behavior, understand why you're doing it, and help you set the trajectory for where you want your life to go, this is going to look a little bit different. And I think that that's an okay expectation.

Bob, we can I. One more thing about weekly work. Yeah. Even though the, the check in, even the check in questions are a little slimmed down from seven pillars, right. It asks about what your commitment to change is like, what have you done to improve relationship? Have you lied to anyone? And then faster scale stuff. So even that is a little bit more, I don't know, aerodynamic. Right. Like it's A little slimmed down, which I think, Nick, to what you're speaking to is it helps to, like, let's get to this other work. Right. Even though you've been processing, it's continuing the same thought process that you did in Seven Pillars, but it's making it even more focused.

Yeah, nice. Aerodynamic. Different illustration. Way to go, guys. Okay, so, Bob, one of the unique parts of this resource, and I would say one of, I think from my vantage point, both as your friend and as someone who's been able to process kind of through this with you, is one of the more unique and cool aspects is your contribution, which is what you call the Superhero Odyssey, which I know is something that you've developed in your clinical work. And so talk us through like that. What is it? How does this help men on their recovery journey?

Yeah, yeah. When Ted actually said, hey, let's work on a book, it was after I presented this Superhero Odyssey to the clinical staff at this retreat. And I think it fits really well into the Compassionate Warrior, because the Compassionate Warrior at large is this character arc, this narrative. The Superhero Odyssey is kind of a smaller narrative within that larger narrative. And so the Superhero Odyssey really came out of just kind of like you said, my clinical work, where seeing how individuals there were also mirrored events in superhero Mutants, you know, whether. Whether we're talking Marvel or dc, whatever. But there's. There's this trope again. There's these similar experiences around early childhood trauma, around difficulty in relationship, around discovering a way to navigate life while avoiding pain. Right? Which is really what a lot of the superhero and mutant abilities like superpowers become for those characters is they're doing something outward that. To navigate through life, Right. Like being able to fly or having super strength. But for a lot of them, they realize that if they. If they devote themselves to just that behavior which keeps them safe, maybe keeps the world safe around them, if they devote themselves to that, then they can't devote themselves to relationship and to their true identity. And. And so worked into the Compassionate Warriors, a couple chapters where we help guys build scenes from their life to help them see how they've developed, like, how their story birthed out of this trauma. Right? And. And they. They developed these coping mechanisms other than sexual addiction, because the superpower, you know, isn't masturbation, right? The superpower is something other than their sexual addiction. And so they've learned to do this to keep themselves safe. And so the way that it fits into the Compassionate Warrior also is that one of the stages in this. In the Hero's journey is the Threshold Guardian. And the Threshold Guardian's role is to basically keep the main character, the protagonist, from being able to move into and not only face this challenge, but also step into their identity. And so what we see in these two chapters is that the Threshold Guardian for all of us in recovery is shame. Right? We get to a place where we've experienced battles, we've overcome obstacles, competitors bested, and now we're at this place where the last thing that we have to really, the biggest thing that we have to face is our own shame. And so the superhero odyssey just puts it into the form of. Of kind of a superhero, mutant superpower, but then helps you to see that really the biggest thing you have to face is your own shame.

True or false, you end up with a superhuman ability after you go through these two chapters. Is that correct? Am I understanding you?

Correct? So this is a great time to plug Compassionate Warrior. You can purchase it on our website and you have to go through the book to find out. There you go.

All right. Perfect selling point.

Cliffhanger. Hey.

I would say having empathy for others in today's day and age can be a superpower because it opens doors in relationships. Like, boy, few other things can. And you know what I'd say I really appreciated about your chapters, Bob, as I worked through them and got to chat with you about them, was it gives guys an opportunity to see their story from a really a different lens. And I think in Seven Pillars, we're appropriately so just a little more factual based. We're like, okay, what led to what and how often and for how long? And what was, you know, the nature of your struggle, you know, what was the maximum extent? And you're really kind of trying to put a factual narrative of your history, so you learn to be a truth teller. And that's honest and it's straightforward. But it doesn't always necessarily engage us in the level of putting our, you know, what we talk about, the cohesive narrative, put our whole story together, maybe see things that we've never seen before. And that's what I'm already hearing from guys that have been through those chapters. It's like, man, I thought I understood the lie I listened to. But as I wrote that narrative and got creative and adding these extra elements of kind of the dramatic effect, as Bob encourages you to think through it in kind of a cinematic version of it, it's like the little details suddenly just become these spotlights on. I have never realized this part or how important that was to Me. And that just makes total sense to me because what we talked about with the brain and the whole left brain, right brain thing, that probably seven pillars had you more living in the left brain of the logic and the reason and what led to what A plus B equals C. Where telling your story and writing it in this super. I mean, the superhero odyssey is much more right brain of spatial and emotional and color and sound and light. And it brings out different memories. And because of that new connections that I think are really propelling guys into healing. So I'm super excited to have guys go through those chapters and if it.

Starts your career in screenwriting.

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

Bob would like a small royalty on your major blockbuster movie release.

Yeah. Thank you, Nick. I mean, I don't want to make this like a, you know, self promotion of something I'm excited about. Right. But it is, it's an immersive story building tool is how I describe it. And some of the main goals are for you to be able to be an objective observer of your own story as if you were sitting in a movie theater watching this take place. And by doing that, we're able to, as an objective observer, we're able to build empathy for ourselves. Right. And which is really for the main character. And so when I'm working through this tool with clients, like, I won't. When we're talking about the scene they've developed, I won't say like, oh, yeah, so here Trevor does this. I'll say here the main character does this. Right. Like, I want to help them to see this as an objective observer and in the Hollywoodizing of these true events. Yeah. They're. They're adding basically this. The cinematic experience or the storytelling experience with lights and sound and camera angles and all this stuff that words can't communicate.

Yeah.

And Guillermo del Toro talks about in movie, in directing and writing that if his goal isn't so much to recreate a truth as much as it is to recreate an emotional truth. And that's what this immersive tool does. It helps people to recreate an emotional truth in a way that they've never done it before.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, Bob, give us some thoughts about what are the outcomes that might come from walking through this resource. What kind of fruit could a man hope to see in their lives due to journeying through the compassionate warrior?

Yeah, I love that in the weekly tools book that many times in multiple weeks there's a section called Progress not perfection. And I think that at the end of this, that hopefully there's still this idea that this is about progress and not perfection. At the end of seven Pillars, if guys don't have the significant sobriety that they want, they can be really discouraged because it's like they're looking for perfection. And I think jumping into the compassionate warrior says, hey, this is a journey and our goal is progress and not perfection. Perfection is in Christ. That's our justification. What we're engaged in is more about continued momentum. It's about trajectory, more durability and sobriety. Absolutely, that's part of it. But I think what guys can expect is a deeper understanding of themselves, of their own trauma, of the nuances of things like in. Into the cracks of their heart that they've never gotten into before. Right. And so in that better understanding of themselves, able to see themselves in their story better really. Again, there's this momentum and trajectory that says, you're going to keep working on this for the rest of your life, but it can look different. Right. It doesn't have to be just this cold, harsh shell of a house. There can be a comfortable, thriving, relational home inside of your recovery.

Yeah, I think too that, you know, you guys have talked about it a number of times already, just, you know, developing empathy toward yourself, you know, especially as you go through and you're, you're crafting the cinematic look into your life. And I think that doing that creates curiosity and compassion for our, our own story and our own self. You know, like, I don't take a shaming and derogatory approach or tone when viewing my own life for my decisions. And curiosity and compassion lead to more self awareness, which leads to more ability, you know, to, to make changes, to see things how they are. And I think that that's something that, you know, I, I know growing up, you know, being the oldest of four boys and even growing up, you know, in the church as a man, like, I'm told I have to be strong and have to seem like I have it all figured out. And at times that doesn't create a curious and compassionate, I guess, just overall bent toward my story or who I am. And so I think that what it does is it creates a tenderness to understand that we are in process. And again, inside that story framework allows me to see that where I am right now is not forever. It's just where I'm at right now and the journey is going to continue. And that curiosity and compassion can help me take steps toward who God created me to be.

Ultimately.

Yeah, I think one of the other outcomes That I see in it is really delving deeper into your legacy. What do you see God leading you into? And we touch on that in Seven Pillars for a few pages. But there's just honestly not enough time in the amount of content you've got to learn at the beginning of this journey. Whereas the Compassionate warrior gets you thinking more about what is the purpose of this journey. Because Christ didn't die for us to just live sin free. Right. He died to bring us back into relationship with God and to live for his glory and to find the fulfillment of life that comes from being other centered and not making it about me, but living in the kingdom that God has made us for. And that's to me, what the compassionate warrior is trying to help us live into is to say, what's the vision for my life? Not just free of my addictive behavior or sober from those things I used to do, but what is my sobriety for? What is my healing for? What am I doing with it? How am I integrating it into my parenting and my marriage and what's God leading me into? And some of those are where I think in particular that warrior's way or the hero motif really helps. Because when you get right down to it, I think a lot of men have sensed at some point in their life that God has called them to something, called them to be a part of something to help change the world in some kind of way, that, that in our fear and shame and woundedness, we're just like, well, there's no way I could do that or who am I? You know, the shame factor sets in. But the truth is like God's inviting us to partner with him to do those things. And that will take kind of that leap into the unknown and a willingness to risk, and not just risk to be free of my stuff, but a risk to like live in a new way with a new vision and purpose. And so I think it's kind of the other half of the story from Seven Pillars of yeah, let's fix what's gotten broken, but then let's answer the question, fixed for what purpose? And I think you're really going to be led into some conversations about what does that look like for you? And you know, for every man in the group it'll be different, but I think every man will have an opportunity to think through what is God calling me into and how do I have the faith to follow him wherever that leads me.

Yep. So, I mean, and you already, you know, took the opportunity earlier to this time, please go purchase compassionate Warrior. But let's just kind of, you know, set the stage here for what encouragements we have for why men should go through this. You know, how. Why would you tell them to go through this resource?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you and the name Compassionate Warrior. Right. If we have, if we have learned to be compassionate towards other people but not to have compassion towards ourself, then I think we're missing the heart of Jesus. Right. Like, we're not just supposed to have compassion for other people. People. I mean, I talk about this a lot with clients that are in ministry. They, they apply like John 3:16 to the world around them, but they forget that, like they are at the heart of that. Right. That, like that they are the one also that was so loved. And I think in this Compassionate Warrior journey, there's like, we, you know, as we're working through things, we do learn to have more empathy for the world around us, for our spouse, for our kids, for our parents. Right. For our grandpar. We can learn to be compassionate towards them knowing that they did the best that they could and they hurt us. Right. I think the Compassionate Warrior helps you to have compassion towards yourself. And, and it really brings a light to things that you went through in the Seven Pillars, almost kind of like the New Testament brings to light some things that you probably read in the Old Testament.

All right, I see you.

Right?

Yeah.

And, and that'll preach. And, and it's, and it's, it's this thing where it's like, oh, wait a second. The Old Testament was about mercy and grace.

Yeah.

Right. Like it was about all of this stuff. And so I think even going to Compassionate Warrior, it will bring insight to things that you did in Seven Pillars and say, oh my gosh, like, I was looking at that so narrowly, but now I see that it was about like so much more than that. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, the compassion you have towards yourself, the unpacking at a deeper level of stuff you've already been working on. But why would you do it? Because you're in a sanctification process and this work's never done and we just need more tools to figure out how to do this. Well, I might feel like I'm getting dialed in how to be the father of a 10 year old, but I've never been the father of an 11 year old.

That's right.

Right. And guess what? That's right around the corner. And so I may know, I may feel like I'm doing okay in my recovery at 44, but I've never been in recovery at 45 and like so to continue this work for the rest of our life, the Compassionate Warrior helps us to do that well and to change our lens.

Yeah, I think it answers the question, you know, if pure desire says that Recovery is a two to five year process, but let's say I do Sexual Integrity 101 and I do a Seven Pillars of Freedom group and I'm a little over a year. What now? Well, Compassionate Warrior is going to take you up to about the two year mark of continuing to lean into your story. And when we say it's a two to five year process, we don't mean it takes that long to get free. But it really comes down to relationships. And for those who are married, I think that's the first relationship we think of that finding new footing and a new way of life for the long haul in a marriage. That's where that two to five year. It takes time to transform those ways of relating to one another, of showing enough consistency that a spouse is able to work through some of their pain and betrayal and find really a new healthy rhythm that lasts. And Compassionate Warrior is a huge part, I think, of addressing those relationship wounds where Seven Pillars was so much about you and your story, appropriately so, because you needed to get out of the struggle or the pattern you were in. But the Compassionate Warrior takes you into that next phase. So it's just such a needed piece of the journey and it almost feels like, well, otherwise you are left a little bit to choose your own ending where this one, I think, directs you more to it. And then my hope would be for guys that at the end of the Compassionate Warrior, they do have a vision to say, man, I do feel like I've got enough healing under my belt that I want to help other men. I want to lead a seven Pillars group. I want to launch Conqueror at my church. I want to take some young men through sexual integrity 101. Because you feel like that track record is there to a point, you're now moving forward to help others. And some men might discover that earlier. I know we do have guys that do seven Pillars once and it's clicking and they're loving it and they're now leading a group of seven Pillars guys. But I think it's maybe even more common for a guy at the end of a first round of Seven Pillars to say, man, I still feel like I've got a lot to learn. I don't know if I should be leading one of these groups yet. And Compassionate Warrior is Just that natural next step to keep diving in and again to then keep that perspective of so that we can pay our healing forward, so that we can see how does God want to use us in the lives of other people.

Yeah, dude. Just going through, I think, too, just going through new resources is always helpful. You know, if you've been through seven pillars two or three times, like, maybe you've kind of gotten to certain patterns and you can also slip into unhealthy patterns in recovery, that will happen. And so I think that having something new and fresh and something that you haven't gone through before, I think sometimes can kick something loose you didn't know was there. And with the new framework, too, I think it's so helpful. And also I think the Superhero Odyssey is probably one of the coolest things ever. So you should probably just buy it and go through it for that. Even if it's just those two chapters, obviously. Kidding. Go through the whole thing and we'll have all that stuff in the show. Notes of how to get the resource, the kit, online groups, local groups where you can search those. But Bob, man, thank you for your time. It's good to have you back on the show and really appreciate the, like, using this tool, you found a lot of success with your clients and then putting it in this resource to make it available to even more people. Appreciate the work, man.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys.

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