354 - Healthy Communication

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello, listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 354 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembaugh.

Less talking, more walking.

I've got nothing.

That's great. Me neither. I have no idea where that's from.

You just came up with it. Is that a Nick Stumble original?

I've heard it a lot of places. I'm sure some listener could write in and tell us where they've heard it. I feel like it's a phrase from my childhood, honestly, of like, you know, when you're supposed to be working in the garden or helping on a chore and you're busy doing something you shouldn't be?

There you go.

You know, it's like a parent comment of, like, less talk, more walk. Like, let's get the job done and quit goofing around. All right. I would hear a little bit of less talking, more walking.

Yeah. Bringing up a little bit of trauma in me. It's great.

Yeah, maybe it is.

Okay, so I can see where you're going with that. Today we had Sherry Chinson on the show, and she's one of our clinicians, and, man, she's great. We really like Sherry and our time with her, and we had her on to talk about healthy communication, specifically in marriages that are in the recovery and healing journey.

Yeah, I think we're emphasizing how important communication is, and one of the themes is that it takes time. It takes a commitment to communicating. And I think there's a reality that we have grown up, most of us that are listening to the podcast in a Western culture that prioritizes work and accomplishment and production and may have grown up with that model of, like, less talk, more walk, like, get it done, produce something and, you know, the talking, we'll get around to it later. And in some ways, in relationships, we may be seeing the outcome of that kind of a lifestyle that it doesn't tend to produce healthy relationships because we try to make our relationships fit in the margins and the along the way kind of the activities versus really slowing down and prioritizing communication. And so if we grew up hearing phrases like, less talk, more walk, get the job done, quit goofing around. We may have this mindset that even looks in marriage at, like, well, sitting around just talking for a couple hours is kind of wasteful, like, I should be doing something. But if it's learning to engage emotionally relationally with our spouse in a deeper way. Like, it could be the most valuable thing we do. And so, yeah, I think we've all got room to grow in communication. And I think in this episode, everyone is going to hear some things that make them think and realize, oh, that's something I could really work on and I could grow in. And if, if every one of us takes that away in some level, like, then this podcast is a win because we want to help people communicate better and grow in their communication.

Yeah. And Sherry has some great stuff to share from her clinical experience and then also just in her marriage. So it is a great conversation and we're sure you're going to take away something from it. So with that, let's get to it. Here's our conversation with Sherry Chinson on healthy communication. Sherry Chinson, welcome back to the show. Glad to have you.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

You're coming down from a beautiful cruise, an international cruise that you've been on. And so you're all bright, shiny, and ready to record a podcast, right?

I am. I'm so focused.

Yes.

That's great, because we're not. Because it's been gross. Rain and co worker today sent a picture to a group of us of her house just like, covered in snow. And I'm like, man, that looks much better than what we have. The wet, gross. Can't even go outside. Anyways, let's not get into that. But we have you on today. I mean, you're, you know, you've been a clinician at Pure Desire for a long time now and have tons of experience. And obviously you've been married for an extended period of time, too, to Tyler Chinson, who many have heard on the show as well. And today we just want to talk about communication, specifically in marriage. And I think we'll get into some, you know, communication about recovery as well. But we've all heard how important communication is, and this is not a new topic on the podcast. We've talked a lot about this kind of in and about, but wanted to circle back and look at what makes healthy communication in a marriage, especially around the journey of sexual addiction and betrayal. This is something we don't have, a natural disposition to communicate in general. And then once it happens and enters our marriage, how do we talk about it? So let's just kind of start with this. We all know communication is important, but really, why? Why is communication in marriage such an important piece?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, in that communication, I'm feeling known. Right. I'm feeling Known by that other person. I think there are. We've got to remember, though, that a big part of the communication is that listening part and not just waiting to be able to talk myself, because sometimes we get into that rhythm of I'm just waiting for that pause so that I can jump in. Right. And that. That's not. That's not the. The good kind of communication. But it's that kind of communication where I can feel like. Like I'm known when I'm supported, like we're growing closer. There's. There's safety, there's security in that for me. Yeah.

I think in relationships, you know, communication is like the air we breathe. Like, without it, the. You don't have relationship. If you never communicate with someone, you can have fond memories of your time with them. But communication is what develops and builds relationship. And so doing that well or poorly is often going to be a real distinctive in. Is the relationship healthy and growing and, you know, moving through seasons of life together, or is it deteriorating because of negativity and bitterness or criticism or, you know, all the things that can come into our communication. And so we. We have a tendency to take it for granted. We're around our spouses a lot, and so we talk a lot. But typically about kids and schedules and groceries and bills and the kind of stuff that it takes to get through life. But that's not necessarily the type of communication that builds a relationship. Now, it definitely is part of it, but it's all the stuff that, as you said, Sherry, knowing and being known, how I'm known and being known by others is about what I'm willing to communicate and how I communicate it and how I receive the communication from others. So just as air is ultimately necessary for survival, communication is necessary for growing relationship.

I don't know if you guys. I'm sure you have heard the. And I've heard this so many different times growing up in the church. But, like, people would say, preach the gospel and use words if necessary. And I've always taken. I mean, the older I get, the more kind of. I take offense to that a little bit. Because if you read in Scripture, Jesus talked a lot throughout it. And so just even from a design aspect like that is how God gave us words, the ability to speak. And it's something that is intentional. And I can even hear someone maybe who's listening that isn't much of a talker. First off, good for you. Like, it's exhausting talking as much as I do every day. I can just tell you from Personal experience, but that, like God intended us to use our words, whether we like to use a lot of them or not, it is still something that we're designed with. And so I think communication is built into the DNA anyway, of who we are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I also think that that communication, as you're going through challenging times. Right. That kind of can help you with that mutual accountability. You know, nothing is hidden.

Yeah.

We're walking in the light, and we're walking together in the light.

Yeah. That's good.

Yeah. So, Sheri, you and Tyler have worked with a lot of couples in the counseling office, and obviously in your own marriage, had a lot of opportunities to learn about communication. What have you seen that are some of the biggest hurdles that couples face when it comes to healthy communication in their marriage? And with that, how might we evaluate if we are the one engaging in unhealthy communication or getting stuck by some of these hurdles?

Well, I think, Trevor, you kind of touched on it a little bit. Is that idea of our different communication styles. Some of us use a lot of words, and some of us don't use a lot of words. Yeah. Or we prefer to use a lot of words than. We prefer not to use a lot of words. You know, just that style. I think communication patterns that we learn early in our life from our family of origin, that's an issue. That can be an issue, I think, too, if in that relational dynamic, one of us is fighting to be heard versus listening to understand. I think. I think that can be a huge hurdle in a relationship. And along with that kind of maybe a fear of being known, being able to realize that, or to fear that if my partner really knew me, they really wouldn't be here.

Yeah.

And that can be. That can be a huge hurdle. And those things are things that can lead to those unhealthy responses.

Yeah.

Anger, dismissing, rejecting. Those kinds of things.

Yeah.

So, yeah. Gottman, John and Julie Gottman are researchers, marital researchers, who've done just a lot of longitudinal studies, and they've identified what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse of the marriage. Right. And those things are criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. And men can be really good at stonewalling. Women can be really good at criticism.

Yeah.

And so we see those relational dynamics coming up. Those are some really. Some big red flags.

Yeah.

That. That's some issues we got to really focus on.

It's interesting you bring up the Gottmans, because my wife and I just finished a marriage class at church, and the teachers included Some of the Gottman stuff. And they actually did research too, on they put couples in, like, the same living quarters over an extended period of time and basically could almost, with like, a very specific percentile, say that this couple will end up getting divorced. And this will not based on how many times they communicate throughout the day. And so I think that, you know, to your point, Sherry, that you made earlier, I think that the patterns that we develop growing up or that we see in our family of origin also, there could be a lot of shame associated with that. I know there's some dynamics too, of male, female, and this is something even Amy and I, my wife, have processed through. And I'm choosing to not be ashamed of it. But in most contexts where a man acts this way and a woman acts this way in the relationship, we're the opposite that I'm the one that wants to connect emotionally and wants to talk more, and she's the one who doesn't. And so just, I think, understanding maybe how shame has crept into my life and how it keeps me from communicating. And you talked about fear, too. That fear of if my spouse knew this about me or knew I had this thought or had this experience that maybe I might be judged or looked at in a judgmental way. And so I think some of those things too, come in. But it's so interesting that the frequency of our communication has a lot to say about the health of our relationship and the longevity of our relationship. It's interesting. Yeah.

One of the hurdles I was thinking about is that healthy balance. And by balance I don't mean 50, 50, but needing to be having both grace and truth in our communication and how I think many of us will lean towards one or the other. And if we're all grace, we're not really saying what we feel. It's always like, oh, that's fine, or it's no big deal, or I'm not going to say anything, or, oh, no, I'm fine. It's all like, I'm just trying to keep things positive and happy. And we might think of that as more grace. And then truth is just always saying what we feel, being direct, getting right to the point. And either of those in the long run, can actually be very destructive to a relationship and communication because on the one, we're only getting the direct truth. And it's like, do they even care about me? Is there any compassion? Do we connect? And if it's all grace, what are they really thinking? And I feel like there's some passive aggressiveness and so it's that battle of how do I learn to speak fully the truth of what I'm feeling, but do it in a way that is fully gracious. You know, something else Gottman talks about is that gracious startup, that gentle startup, and how important that if we are speaking truth, whether something we need to share about ourselves or we need to point out that's happening or a hurt that's occurred, the gentle startup, that's gracious and affirming and, you know, somehow creating connection creates an opportunity for truth to be told in a better way. And so I think all of us, like I mentioned, we tend to lean more one to the other, and that becomes a hurdle because we just see it like, you know, if you're a truth teller, you're like, well, why would I dance around the topic? Like, let's just get to it. And the other person's like, well, why would you be so rude? You need to be more kind and great. Like, we tend to identify with the style that we're more comfortable with, and that can actually be a hurdle to good communication in the relationship. So I think we just have to step back and ask, you know, am I attempting to be all grace and all truth and not one or the other?

And self awareness is huge in that. I think you need to have an awareness. And this is, I'm sure, a hurdle you guys run into a lot. Sheri and I know, my wife and I at times too, where, like, if we don't understand the communication style of our spouse and we also don't have self awareness, as many people who've listened to the show know. I'm a verbal processor. My wife has learned this. And so there are times where she knows just to kind of like sit back, put a blanket over her and just listen, you know, and that's okay. But we need to have that awareness of both our spouse and us in order to address maybe some unhealthy patterns.

Well, one of. One of the ways that Tyler and I work with that, and he's. He's. He's really good at coming up with these little techniques that we use.

He.

And I am that verbal processor, okay? And he's not. And usually when I want to verbally process something, his eyes can go blank, right? And it's like, how long is this going to go on? One of the things we've come up with is when I need to verbally process, I need to, you know, approach him and say, look, I. I need to talk about something. I need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. Of your time. Is now a good time? And I don't need you to fix me. Yeah, right. I just need to talk. And that can really relax him and allow him to really be much more present in that conversation.

Yeah, that's good. Making a plan for it. That's. Yeah, there's. There so much of life struggles. If we just worked on scheduling something, a lot improvement. That just. That's just a hot take for me.

Yeah.

Well. And I would just say it seems that in nearly every marriage, God seems to have put together a verbal processor with someone who would prefer maybe withdraw and come back to it later. And, I mean, that's same for my wife and I. I'm like, if we have an issue, let's talk about it right now. Let's get it out there. Let's. Let's talk about every angle of it till it's fixed. And she's more like, give me two days, and if I'm still thinking about it, maybe I'll come back to it. And it's like, that's been our tension. And I just hear that over and over. So to say to you as our listeners, if you're in that, that's not like a you and your spouse problem. Like, that's a marriage problem that almost everybody has to some degree. And so if you can see, like, oh, this is normal, that one of us would rather do this and the other would rather not. Okay. How do we come up with tools or little tricks that work for us to find a healthy place of compromise?

Yeah, totally. Okay. It seems like there are certain topics where communication isn't an issue, but when you get to some other areas, like emotions, conflict, even sex, it becomes much more difficult to address it or to even communicate it. Why is this? What's your take? I know you see a lot of this in the counseling room as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, those are usually the topics that we didn't learn how to talk about from our family.

Right.

Our family of origin. As children, we learn from example. And so if our parents didn't talk about these things, or if we weren't really allowed to talk about these things, then we don't know how to approach them with our spouse. Right. There are some. Or there were, I know, in my family, anyway, some unspoken, unacceptable topics of discussion. It was like we just. I just knew I couldn't talk about these things. And those days become very uncomfortable. And those are, you know, finances are a huge one in. In relationship. I had no idea, you know, our financial status as when I was A kid. When I was growing up, my parents had gone through the depression, so they had a very safety orientated, you know, view of money. But I always thought we were very, very poor. Looking back, probably not sex. I mean, that's very, very few of us grew up with any type of explanation of what God's design for sex was. And again, we never talked about it in my family other than don't do it, you know, it's terrible, it's dirty, it's awful. Save it for marriage and the one you love. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And then, you know, conflict resolution too. If you never saw that growing up, if you never saw that modeled in the home in a positive. Really difficult to know how to do in, in a marriage situation, you're going to have conflict. You're two different people. So how are you going to learn to resolve that if you never learned to resolve it before? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think in a lot of those topics you're bringing up, Sheri, it's the nature of the reason it's coming up is because I maybe have something that will come across as an accusation to my spouse, whether it's about money or the in laws or sex. It's something I've seen that I think needs to be fixed or worked on. And if it was just about me, I could just work on it or fix it and I wouldn't necessarily need to communicate. But I may be seeing something about the way money is spent or an interaction that happened with family or frequency or how sex is happening or not happening. And as soon as we bring that up, when we're putting the other person into a place of defensiveness or feeling like they've done something wrong, I mean it just. Any one of us has a hard time communicating some of that. So I think the skill that we look to learn is like, how do I learn to share authentically about my experience, my feelings, and maybe point out how they're involved? My spouse is involved in what's happening, but not in a way that is critical. You know, put down shaming, jumping to conclusions, like all those things that just make it worse. I mean, it's some of the, the fundamentals my wife and I learned about in even our, like our pre marriage class on, you know, use I statements. Not you don't use words like always and never. Don't compare, don't compare them to their mother or their father. All these like. And we laugh. But yeah, you know, how many times have you heard in conversation people do that? You're like, oh my Goodness. Do you realize, like, you just. You just set that whole conversation down a really bad slope because of the way you phrase that, where instead of saying, well, you always ignore me, you could say, you know, I feel like I don't. There are many times I feel like I don't matter to you. Those are two totally different statements to get to the same point, but the response is probably going to be very different. So it's just learning. How do I bring up areas where we don't see eye to eye in a way that the other person can receive it and then be open to a conversation about it?

I think, too, you've had maybe some negative experiences around trying to share, you know, in these areas, like you've shared your emotions, you know, and maybe you heard something from your dad, like, you know, don't cry, dust yourself up, get up. You know, things like that, conflict you've tried to engage, people have shunned, you know, away from that or reacted negatively. And then you bring up, you know, I had that experience growing up, my first real interaction. You know, I remember someone had said the F word in the. In the cul de sac, and I came in and I asked my parents what it meant, and their reaction was like, oh, we do not say that word. And so in that moment, I, you know, I now know that there was some shame wrapped up in it. And so I think that based on those past experiences, bringing these things up specifically to a spouse can feel very risky. Because once you've. And this is. As a, you know, recovering control freak, I can say once you say these things out loud, you cannot control how that person responds. And so there's fear, there's risk, and so it takes a lot of courage. And we haven't done that and had good experiences. It's really hard to muster up the courage to step into that again.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, going back to the Gottmans again, one of the things that their research has come up with is that two thirds of the issues that come up in marriage can't be resolved. They have to be managed. Right. And keep that in mind that, you know, most of our problems in marriage we have to talk about and we have to figure out how to deal with together. But, you know, based on a lot of things in our past. Yeah. Are we feeling safe to bring those up? Yeah, it's tough. Yeah.

Well, for some, that may be discouraging to hear. Like, two thirds of what we argue about we're not going to solve because we do think we're going to fix it. But. But that's such a valuable perspective to say, you are two different people. And it's not learning how to think exactly like each other. It's learning how to appreciate and love the other person for their differences and figuring out a way that in this dance of marriage, you make your uniquenesses work. I mean, in my marriage, I'm more a saver. My wife is more a spender. And I don't mean she's out spending money and I'm hoarding it. Just our mindset for money is that way. And like, we're probably going to have that mindset the rest of our lives. And that will create moments of conflict around money and spending and all that. That if we think, well, I've got to fix her to become a saver, or she thinks, I've got to fix him to become a spender, that's probably not going to happen. And so that's an issue for us that, hey, we've got to figure out, how do we dance together well for the rest of our lives? And we can do it. So back to one of the topics you brought up, Sherry, that most of us did not see modeled in the home was talking about our emotions and being able to share those with our spouse. And, you know, for couples in recovery, that is a vital piece of health. And strengthening a relationship is being able to be real about our emotions. So how can we learn to share emotions in marriage? Like, how can we grow in that if we realize it's something we didn't see modeled well for us?

I'm going to speak from personal experience on that one a lot, because for my. For me, I had a really difficult time even identifying what emotions I was feeling. And so I think that's the huge part of it is. And even a lot of the women I work with, I notice that they have a hard time figuring out what am I really feeling and what am I needing in that moment. And so if we can first figure out, how do I figure out what I'm feeling, right? And what I've noticed and what has helped me is figuring out, okay, what's my body doing in that? You know, where's. Am I feeling tension? Am I feeling anxiety, agitation, feeling overwhelmed, which is usually my go to. And then if I can put those body messages into words, then from the words, I can figure out the emotions. It's sort of that backward, you know, working backwards in that. And then a friend of mine gave me sort of a template to use. And it's like when this happens when blank happens. I feel blank.

Yeah.

Right. And what I needed was blank. Right. So I've got that kind of a pattern to. To move through, to help me identify what those emotions are. And if I can identify that, then I can communicate that.

Yeah.

To my spouse.

Yeah.

Right. That's the only way I can figure out how to do it.

Yeah. What is the Nick. What's the XYZ framework? You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah. That's actually jotted that down.

Yes.

That what you're bringing up, Sherry, that in situation X, when you did Y, it made me feel Z. And obviously the. The why part there, you're trying not to say, you know, when you did this, you're not accusing. You're stating something factually about what they said, what they did. You know, so an example being, you know, when we're in the car, that's X, and you were driving over the speed limit, that'd be Y. It made me feel unsafe or it made me feel like you weren't concerned about how I perceived our speed limit. Or a spouse might say back, you know, when we were driving in the car and you criticized my driving, or you made that. Maybe I shouldn't say that. You would probably say, when you made that comment about my poor driving, I felt like I wasn't good enough or it made me feel unworthy. Um, so just thinking through what is a little pattern that.

Yeah.

That I can concisely explain. What was the situation? How did it make me feel? In the hope that then, hey, let's talk about this. Not just that I'm trying to tell you, don't do that. It's like, could we talk about a way. A better way to handle this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Something that I think is always important is. And this can probably apply to. In general, to sharing emotions, but if I don't know what emotions I'm feeling, this. The illustration comes to mind. Like, the Runway is really important. So, like, how you approach the conversation or kind of get into it is really important. Because if. And you know this, if a plane just goes down 10ft and then tries to pull into the air without getting up to speed, it is going to be disastrous. And I think that the same thing. There are things we can do on the front end of these conversations that help us avoid some of those major pitfalls. Um, and so saying, you know, and I've said this to my wife, instead of just saying, I'm really angry at you, you know, that could be my idea of that. But if I have no idea what I'm actually feeling, a better approach might be, hey, I'm. I'm feeling a lot of emotions, and I'm not really sure what I'm feeling. Can I process with you and can you help me kind of identify this? That is a much more collaborative space you're asking your spouse to enter in rather than just pointing a finger. And so I think that that's something that we could do a better job of. Instead of just blurting it out, just say, hey, I've been feeling, you know, some things, and I just want, you know, Sher, you talked about this earlier. Like, if you want to verbally process setting up that space where they could say, no, now's not a good time, not really in the right head space, but setting that, you know, expectation in the next day or two, I'd really love some time just to sit down and talk about how I'm feeling. And entering that space, you know, with your weapons away, basically, I think is really helpful. Yeah.

Well, I know for me, I had to learn the language of emotions. I had to learn how to share those. And that's where the faster scale was so key in our marriage and having. Having a commitment in that first year or two of recovery that we were having this weekly check in where I would share my faster scale with my wife really taught me how to walk through. Okay, this week, you know, this is where I was feeling anxiety, and this is how it made me feel. And then this led me to speeding up. And here's how I felt there. And I think I intuitively knew I was feeling those things. I just didn't realize how little I was ever telling anybody else. And the number of times my wife was like, wow, I never knew you felt that way. It's like, really? I feel that way all the time. I thought we talked about this, like, oh, I guess I just have a pattern of, well, I need to fix it myself. And I would journal and pray. And so I think I'd processed emotions as an individual, but learning to actually tell someone else what I was feeling without feeling, like, the shame of I'm weak or I'm not good enough was just a new experience. And so to have a framework, like the faster scale to work through was really, really helpful. And I know for others it's been tools like the Fanos check in where it's feelings is the first one. And they literally are pulling out a feelings wheel each day and just saying, like, what's my dominant feeling today? And coming up with a word like, oh, I never thought of that. And sharing that with your spouse out loud, just in a two, three minute check in, it gets us in this habit of I'm putting out loud something I'm feeling inside, and it just starts to become a more normal part of our communication with our spouse.

You know, another thing that just came to mind, and I'm this way where I can be pretty task oriented, where I feel like my emotions when I share them. We need a resolution. We got to figure out how to fix it or solve it or, you know, result, whatever. And I think that emotions are not created that way. We experience them extended period of time, short periods of time. And so also know as you're entering into that space, it's not necessarily going to be a box that you check and you can move on. It may be one conversation in a number of conversations or a number of experiences that you have that help you process why you're feeling the way that you're feeling.

So as, again, Sher, you and Tyler have gotten to work with many, many couples in this recovery journey. We've talked a little bit about, you know, the challenges, the hurdles. What does it look like on the flip side when you see a couple making strides, when you see them moving forward together, there's health being established. What do you notice about their communication patterns? Like, what should we look for to see that we're beginning to enter into healthy communication? What have you seen in that area?

You know, I think one of the, one of the main things that I notice when a couple is sort of moving out of that fog is they realize that they're on the same team. And that sounds really simple, but for a couple that has gone through some really difficult and challenging times, that's. That can be a huge revelation, is to realize that we're. We're together on this and we're going to stay together on this. You know, that, that, that addictive mindset and then the betrayal trauma, it can really distort that whole communication process. It kind of can skew what you hear from the other person. You're kind of maybe hearing what you want to hear or what you think they're going to be saying rather than the words they're actually saying. And so when you can get out of that fog, when you start coming out of that and you start being able to really hear more clearly and understand and empathize with your spouse, what your spouse is trying to communicate, that's when you can start really saying, okay, we're on that team. And then applying structure to those conversations I think really help you mention faster scale and fanos. Those are wonderful tools, you know, that we use a tool. Again, going back to Gottman, I feel like this is the Gottman show, but there's so much there. We use a process that they have developed for dealing with. They call it the aftermath of a regrettable incident. And it's a wonderful tool that takes a long, long time, but it's, it helps us understand where we're coming from in a difficult situation as well as where our spouse is. Helping a couple realize that they may have been caught up in that drama triangle and how to get off that drama triangle into a more healthy communication where they can negotiate and they can compromise is really, really important. Most of all though, a lot of it is about slowing down. Slowing down, staying present, staying in the conversation, not bringing up the whole kitchen sink or a bunch of past experiences.

Right.

Your focus.

Right.

And making sure you're, you're there and making sure you're, you're allowing God and inviting him into that situation. Yeah, I'm going to make it without him. You're just totally.

Yeah. I think a couple things that came to mind, you know, kind of going back to some of the Gottman research. Again, Gottman show, not a sponsor.

I should ask them. That's a good idea.

We totally should. I mean we referenced, yeah, we definitely referenced them enough. But the frequency of communication in check ins I think says a lot about the health of the communication in a, you know, marriage. Um, I think in those check ins or in those kind of interactions, you know, Gottman also talks about like bids, you're, you're offering a bid for connection. But I also think asking questions rather than assuming is a good indicator that communication is pretty healthy. Like, hey, I, you know, I noticed when, you know, our kids did this the other day, I saw you kind of pull away like what was, what was happening in that moment rather than just assuming they were mad or assuming that I did something wrong or you know, it's that curiosity posture I think. And that's something that when, when me and Amy's communication is not healthy, there are a lot of assumptions that at least I know for me that get thrown kind of across the aisle. So I know for me if there's those check ins and the frequency of communication and that curiosity that usually tells me we're in a better spot.

I would just say in a self revealing way. Asking questions is not a surefire way to make better communication because it's entirely possible to questions in a very accusatory way. That is definitely my trip up or something I can get stuck in when I'm kind of frustrated. And it's like, well, ask a question. It's like, what have you been doing all morning? Oh, well. Or why did you buy all these? Gross. Why did you buy all those things? Do we really need them? Well, those are all questions, but it's clear in my tone and intent. What I'm saying is I think you were wrong. Why did you do this? I'm questioning you. So I think you have to make sure your tone is truly curious. And if you have a concern that you state it truthfully versus kind of veiling it as a question. And again, that's my self revealing of probably the biggest communication thing I need to work on. What I would say when I've seen couples and you say, man, I think they're gonna make it in terms of their growing or even when I look back, part of it is just something as simple as devoting time to it. I mean, how many couples have we heard say we just realized we never talked about these things? I mean, we, we had the kids and the careers and we did the shopping and paid the bills and we communicated enough to get all that done, but we never actually talked to each other. They'll say, when's the last time we really talked? And so when I hear that a couple is prioritizing a weekly date night so they can get out and not talk about the bills and the kids, but just talk about us and how are you doing? How am I doing? What's going on? What could we work on? How could we improve? Or when I hear that they're taking walks multiple times a week just to process when I know they're sitting down and using the faster scale, or they've got a nightly thanos check and it's like, oh, okay. Because there's time to do it. I mean, especially emotions. Like communicating emotions is hard to do on the fly. It's hard to do in a passing conversation. You need some time to feel safe, to kind of settle into that environment and really start to open up. So if you feel in your marriage you're struggling to communicate, well, I would have to ask the question, how much time are you actually devoting to it? And if you're hoping it's just magically going to happen in all the in between times, that's really hard to do. So devote some time to it. And again, time isn't a guarantee. Like Just because you devote an hour to it doesn't guarantee it's going to go better. But I can tell you without time, it pretty much is guaranteed not to improve.

Yeah.

Well, another thing too that comes to mind is a commitment to continue doing it because you may have an interaction or communication where it's like, gosh, what just happened? Why did we do this? This was awful. But that commitment to like, look, you're going to have those conflicts, you're going to have those hard conversations and choosing to still re. Engage and believe that the communication is going to help long term. But yeah, like to assume that, you know, you're going to set up to your point, you're going to set up this weekly time to talk. Some weeks you may argue the entire hour, you know, but it's that you show up that next time you have it scheduled to do it again. So that commitment to the long haul, for sure. And I hope that someone hears this, this as we're talking about this communication is really difficult. Like, this is not a simple clean process. We're all broken. We all got our stuff. But just be encouraged. You're not alone. I think that's already been said a couple of times, Sherry. Once. Once a couple moves into recovery and healing, and maybe they have been able to do things like the faster scale and the thoughts and feelings log things like that where they're sharing. Maybe they've gotten into some healthy habits. What does it look like to maintain healthy communication and continue making it a priority even after maybe that initial crisis has died down in recovery and healing?

Yeah, well, I think you really hit it on the head. It's that whole idea of making it a priority, make your marriage a priority. You know, you got a lot of stuff, you got kids, you got things running around. But Tyler and I have found over the last few years, the kids leave. You know, they, they, they eventually, they eventually leave. They, they. Do they eventually.

Is that a promise? Okay.

I do. I do. Yes. They eventually want to leave. Right. And you're left with two spouse. Yeah. And if you have not cultivated that relationship as you've gone on in, in life and you've raised the kids and you've paid the bills and you've done all the house stuff, you're gonna look at that person and go, who are you again? Why are you here? Right. So you've got to cultivate that relationship as you go, and you've got to make that a priority. So it's putting it on the calendar. Right? It's, it's Making sure that it's there just as much as any other thing that you spend time on. There's that. I, you know, we always talk about date nights. I personally don't like that phrase. I don't know why I think it, I think to me it becomes an event rather than about being together.

Right.

You know, we, we gotta go out to dinner, we gotta go to a movie, we gotta do whatever rather than we, we want to spend time together. And so it's, but it's still that idea of scheduling it. You know, Ted, Pastor Ted was our doctor, Ted was our pastor for years. And he would always say, if you're not doing some sort of marriage enrichment conference at least once a year, you are shortchanging your marriage. And I think there's some real truth in that. So to actually spend that time away together and whether it's at a conference at your church, whether it's at whatever, whether it's at the summit.

Oh, there it is.

Yeah. Shameless plug there. Right? But, you know, if we're doing something together and really making that a priority at least once a year, just the two of us, that's, that's refilling that tank. That relationship we talked earlier, I mean, that's a, it's a, it's a breathing, living thing. And if we don't feed it, yeah, it's, it's gonna wither away. So doing, doing a work. But we, we suggest when we are ending our 12 month program with a couple, we suggest some things that they can do, do to keep going. You know, whether it's our connected workbook, whether it's a book called Keep youp Love on by Danny Silk is, is a wonderful book. Some people say it's the best marriage book ever written. So to go through a chapter and then talk about that together. One of the things that, that Tyler used to do with, with us as a family is something called the ungame. And it's, it's just little questions that you ask each other. And he would bring those out at the dinner table and the girls would be just like, oh, his dad's doing this again. But it was also really, it was a great time of, you know, just learning about each other, just talking about, you know, one of the questions that he always talks about was when was the last time you cried? You know, and why? And learning about what really touches each other's heart, I think is really, really important. Time together when there's no agenda too. I'm that type a person. It's really hard for me to sit and do not. Yeah, Tyler can do that.

He's such a weirdo. Yeah. Such a weirdo, right?

Yeah. He can sit and do. I don't know how you do that.

Yeah.

But when he invites me in to that space, I learned better how to accept it and enjoy it just because there's that again. It's that feeling that he. Excuse me. Need a moment. That he really wants to be with me. You know, he's choosing that time to set aside to make it. To make it important for us. That's really special.

That's cool.

When's the last time you cried? On today's podcast, she now has her answer. Yeah. Hey, I gotta just point out, like, when a counselor says it might be the best marriage book ever written, like, write that one down. Big deal. Keep your love on Danny Silk.

That's great.

Have that recommendation. I appreciate what you said about the date night sharing, and I'm a huge advocate for date night. But I think it's absolutely true that if we think of date night as, like, this production or this event, like, we gotta go out, it's gotta be bigger and better. It's gotta be glitzy, or there's gotta be some extravagant plan if we went six different places. And, I mean, if you have big dates or, you know, things on anniversaries, like, those are memorable. Like, try to make memorable moments. But for my wife and I, in prioritizing a weekly date night, what we mean by that is there's gonna be some time that it's just about us. And it's not to fix problems in our house. It's not talk about the kids unless we want to. It's just for us to be together. And that could be a walk, that could be a coffee shop, that could be a nice dinner, that could be a movie, like. And the reason we say weekly is because I know it's not going to happen every week. And honestly, it doesn't. But if we say it's going to be monthly, then it's even less frequent than that. When we say weekly, then it's happening fairly regularly. And you miss one week, well, you're still looking for it the next week. So I think having that routine that just says, we're in this season of life for us with our four kids that are all teenage years and they're busy and active, there is no end of the day where we have this quiet house. We're at that season where we go to bed where before some of our kids and you just have to decide, like, I'm disengaging, I'm going to bed. When we had younger kids and we were putting them to bed at 8pm yeah, the day was crazy, but there was finally that hot quiet. And in that season, we did a lot more of, like, we read books together. We'd have more kind of couples time in the night. And I tell you right now, we're just in a season, like at 10:30pm when our kids are still up and they're still asking questions about homework and, like, we don't feel like trying to spend time going through books. Like, we're tired, we're done, we're going to bed. And for a while, I felt guilty about that. Like, oh, a good couple should always end with, like, some couple time and prayer. And, you know, if you do good, pray with your spouse every night if you can. But I'm just saying we're in a season. Like, we don't get to that most nights, but our date night is a time to care for one another, to reaffirm the way we value each other, to listen to one another. And for us, that's crucial. So I. I guess what I'm trying to say in maybe a long, rambling way, is evaluate the season you're in and decide in this season what can we do to develop a stronger communication pattern in our marriage. And it's probably going to change in the next season of life, but in this season, lean into that. Go all in and find. I think you'll find your communication patterns really can grow.

Yeah. The only other thing I would add, and it's just because it's so fresh on my mind, is in this marriage class. We were, you know, every Sunday for six weeks instead of going to the service. We met, you know, at. At church for this marriage class, and we sat at a table with four or five other couples. And I'll just say, in the kind of discussion that we'd have, you learn a lot from listening to other people talk about their marriage and you ask questions and then you share about yours and people ask questions. And, you know, there is an aspect of community, I think, that should be wrapped up in this too, that, you know, you don't only talk about your marriage with your spouse, that you do have couple friends that you, you know, or certain contexts where it's okay to discuss your marriage and, you know, marriage mentors, things like that. Like, those are always super helpful. But again, I think it's the being intentional to put your marriage in places where you can Talk about it where health can be developed, where vulnerability does happen. I think that that's also helpful.

And, you know, it's in claiming those little moments too, Nick, like you were talking about. It's claiming those little, little things that, that aren't. I'm a huge fan of the movie up.

Yeah.

If you've never seen that one, you want your heart ripped out a little bit.

Yeah.

It's a tearjerker in the first, like six minutes. It's a tear jerker.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

You know, one of the lines of Russell is that little boy, he's talking about his absentee dad. Right. And he's kind of talking about things they used to do and, you know, counting cars and going for an ice cream. And he's like, you know, that might sound boring, but I think it's the boring stuff that I remember the most. And I think there's such wisdom in that. That's so true.

That's cool.

Yeah. Well, speaking of kids like Russell in our lives, if we are parents and we're working on healthy communication in our marriage, what does that look like? To model healthy communication and maybe especially about our emotions because as we've talked about, most of us didn't see that. So how do we change that pattern in our families and model healthy communication around emotions to our kids?

I think first thing to realize is that kids are like little barometers in the home. I mean, they kind of suck it all in and they learn by example. And how they feel is going to be a lot of times dependent on how parents feel. They're going to kind of mimic those same kinds of feelings that they're experiencing around them. So, you know, to, to have that united front as parents is really important, to be consistent with that united front and to, to be able to help the kids through those emotions. You're going to argue, you're going. Parents are going to have. Spouses are going to have conflict. You're two different people. That's just the way it is. So. But it's important to help the kids understand what, how to helpful, healthfully process through those. Those difficult conversations. Right. To allow them to see you guys solve the problems. And in that, you know, they're going to learn how to solve the problems, too. Learning how to model that repair attempt, how to apologize when you've done something wrong or when you've yelled at your kids. One of my, one of my clients was talking to me about how her kid. Because she was learning how to apologize to the child to 4 year old, maybe the 4 year old is now learning and coming to her and saying, well, mom, I shouldn't have yelled at you. I'm sorry. So they will pick up on how we model. So we've got to be in control of our emotions. We've got to be able to manage ourselves if we want them to be able to manage themselves.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the most challenging thing about parenting, at least in my seven years of experience, is regulating myself while trying to help a 7 and 4 year old regulate themselves. Yeah. I think one thing that we've practiced, and I cannot remember where we picked this up or who we picked it up from, but we've been doing highs and lows at dinner every night for years now. And, you know, being intentional to not even as parents, to not shy away from, you know, like yesterday I had a really hard conversation at work. So I, you know, I'm going through a challenging season or, you know, my wife is, you know, has this nonprofit that works with critically ill kids and she wears a lot of weight of that. And so to say my high today was getting to do this thing for, you know, this kid. And my low is just how, you know, how challenging it was. And one of the things too, it just happened this week. I shared a low from my day and my seven year old goes, why was that so hard, dad? And my first thought was like, leave me alone, I don't want to talk about this. Like, you know, but it literally came to mind, like, no, he needs to hear this. Like, he needs to hear that why it's hard, like, why this is a challenge for me and why I'm struggling with it. And I've even, and it's funny too. And I've learned to not take offense, you know, or be, you know, too worried about it. But like, if I'm going through a challenging season with a friend or at work or at church and I say something in my high and low, I've noticed that when we pray together and with some other kind of thing we've been doing, we've been praying together as a family of four before I leave for work is that, you know, I think once my 7 year old was like, in his prayer, jesus, be with Daddy, Help the mean people at work to be nice to him today. And I'm just like thinking that's not what's happening. But I appreciate the thought, you know, like, thank you. But it's one of those things where I just realized that, like, letting him in, I don't feel Like, I got that a ton or I don't remember that a ton growing up. And so letting him see my process and letting him say, like, what I really heard conversation today and I was really nervous. I didn't know how I was going to go. I didn't know how I was going to respond. And you know, daddy had to own something because I made him, you know, things like that go such a far way, you know, such a long way with our kids. And I've seen fruit from it, so that'd be my recommendation, is creating a space where those emotions can be shared at a regular kind of pace and click. And your family, I think, can do a lot.

Yeah. The reality is, if we're growing in our healthy communication and learning to share emotions in our marriage, it's going to have an effect on our kids. Like, we're just going to be more naturally viewing life through that lens. We're going to be hearing their emotions. I think that's a really important thing. My wife and I tried to work on as we were in our healing process, as we had all kinds of emotions we were navigating is rather than shaming or shutting down, emotions coming from our kids, trying to affirm, like, I can see you're feeling really upset. I recognize this is really hard for you. Can you help me understand a little more what you're feeling right now? I'd like to help support you and just kind of welcoming emotions in the home I think is part of it. And I think I've learned too that apologizing to our kids is a great way to show vulnerability and ownership. But also the way we apologize matters because if we just focus on I did something wrong that I shouldn't have, I. I'm sorry. While that's important, it doesn't maybe bring our children into the process of what happened. And so to be able to say to them like, I've had a really long day at work and I realize I'm carrying anger from there. And what you did really wasn't that bad. And it's not your fault for how my workday was, but I was at an unhealthy place in my emotions. And when you brought up that topic, I was already triggered by other stuff and I lashed out at you and you actually, you got the brunt of my anger from some other conversations and I need to own that. And you're probably not gonna say that to a 7 year old, but at a 12, 15, 16 year old, they get that. And I think they start to see Too. Like, oh, when I snapped at my mom or dad, it wasn't just because of what they said, it was because of that, see, I got on a paper, or it's because of what someone said to me in the hallway. Or it just helps us all evaluate that we are emotional beings and we don't just walk out of one room and leave all the emotions from that conversation or that relationship in that room. We carry it all with us until we've processed it. And we either process it in healthy ways or we kind of leak it out on other people in unhealthy ways. And I think the more we just see that and make that part of the apology conversation, it helps our kids see too. Like, oh, okay, there's more to my actions. I think how I grew up, it was kind of like, you're a sinner and you do sinful things, so you got to repent of sinful things. And while there's theological truth to that, there's a lot more to us as human beings that I'm an emotional person with all this stuff going on and sometimes stuff comes out sideways in ways that, yes, I would define as sinful, but if I only think of it as sin, as a bad choice, and I miss why I did it, then I'm kind of emotionally illiterate in that sense. And so it's inviting that same kind of thinking in our children that I think is so important.

I agree. I think too you, you hit on something there too is that idea of being developmentally appropriate. You're not going to talk to a three year old and, and invite that same kind of conversation, that detail of conversation with a three year old as you are with a teenager. So we've got to kind of develop our parenting style as, as we go to make sure that we're, we're meeting the needs of the kids. And I think, you know, you can, we could use sort of a modified version of maybe a Thanos, check in with those kids you mentioned. High, low. That too. But we can also, you know, if we want to start adding in an affirmation for each other, if we want to start adding in some, you know, taking ownership, something like that. There's a tool on our website, the family values exercise. And that I would also think is a, is a really helpful exercise that a family can do together to help create that sense of what is our family about, you know, what do we stand for as a family? So it's something we used when our girls were small. And it did, it was really Nice to have that sense of. This is our family motto. This is our creed. This is who we are.

Yeah.

Team Shenzhen is.

Yeah.

So let's support those things that make that value. Have legs, right?

Yeah, I like that. It's clear.

And I can't remember which one of you said it, but just the idea that communication is one of those things that is never going to be solved. It just has to be managed. And so continuing to press into ways that you can improve it. And obviously, you know, going through group and prioritizing your own health is a huge step into that. But then also continuing to really expose your marriage to outside resources, to mentors, to conferences, things like that, where you can gain tools and gain perspective. But yeah, communication is challenging, and it's always going to be challenging, but it is something that you can do well and can continue to get better at. So we hope our conversation today was helpful, at least in that maybe give you some things to think about. And don't passive aggressively share this podcast with your spouse. That's not good communication. Maybe listen together and talk about ways you can improve.

But either way, Sheriff, work on these things so well that your spouse is noticing. Like, man, I feel like you're really growing. What's the difference? Like, I listen to this podcast and then they'll be curious and they'll want to listen to it, too.

Life change right there. Sherry, we love having you on the show. Thanks for your expertise and just the stuff that you do in the clinical space, for sure. But also, thanks for your time today.

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our group's resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.