355 - Porn & Mental Health

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, listener? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 355 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembo.

Like a good neighbor, Steve Arm is there. Yes. We got Trevor to sing on the podcast. Hopefully my tone will be 355 episodes. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, I just don't.

Yeah, you're the. I mean, it's funny. I was a worship pastor. I'm not ashamed of my voice or anything. But you are the one who sings in the intros.

Yes. For better or for worse. Some people love it, some people hate it, some people just skip it. So to all you folks, you're not hearing this.

Anyway, okay, so we had our friend of the ministry, personal friend, Ben Bennett, on Today in Studio, and this is one of two episodes we have with him. And today we talked about the connection between porn and mental health.

Yeah. You know, and like a good neighbor, we could all use a little bit of help from time to time. I don't know if you've seen the new commercials where they sing the ditty and, like, someone magically appears to help them.

That's right. That's right.

And wouldn't it be great? In our struggles today, we talked a lot about things like anxiety, worry, depression, shame, rejection, that someone just would magically appear and help solve our problems. And yet we all know the truth is these issues don't magically get resolved. No one can do the work for us. But there really are some valuable steps we can take. There are some mindsets that we can approach. And I think that's what I really loved about Ben's conversation today, is just really kind of bringing this into the spectrum of faith. And at a practical level, like, what are things we can be doing to address our mental health and to know that we're not leaving faith through the Bible behind, But in light of what we know of Christ, how are we incorporating some of our rhythms and practices into improving mental health? Because it's something, I think, much like any area of life, whether it's relationships, stewardship of our possessions, this is a lifelong journey that we're on. And mental health is one of those things that it will always be with us. And so if we can learn some tools and build some solid structures around that, now, it's going to serve us the rest of our life. And so I don't know that we can Accomplish all of that in one 55 minute podcast or whatever this was. But I hope we can give people maybe some new ideas about structuring their life for good mental health for the long haul.

Yeah.

And I love how the episode starts where we're able to expand a little bit further out what mental health can encompass. So I think this is going to be a great episode. I think you're going to enjoy it. Here's our time with Ben Bennett on porn and mental health. Benny B. Welcome back to the show, my man. Glad to have you in person. I don't know if listeners know this. You're from Texas.

That's right.

And you're usually on Zoom, but now you're in studio, so welcome, man.

I am. What a treat. It's been, it's been, it's giving. I've been looking forward. Too much coffee. I've been looking forward to this for a while, For a long time. So great to see you guys face to face.

Yes.

This is the first pod in person, I think. Not on Zoom.

Yeah, that's right with me.

Yeah. So it's perfect.

So, as people will see next week, we have you for two episodes. So this is the first one. And as a good friend of ours and the show, we know that one of the topics you love to talk about is mental health. Honestly, dude, it's from like swag that you saw on your website, the content you're posting online. We know this is an area of passion for you and definitely a part of your story, specifically how sexual addiction and pornography impact our mental health. So we're going to dive into this topic. And we just knew you were the right guy. And in all fairness, you gave us this topic, so we knew you were the right guy at times too. But as we start, the term mental health gets thrown around a lot. And it's not in like a negative way necessarily, but it is something that a lot of people hear. So can you help us by giving us a clear definition of what mental health actually means?

Yeah. I think of mental health as the state of one's psychological and emotional well being. The state of somebody's psychological and emotional well being. I think a lot of times when people think of mental health, they think of the, what can. I don't want to say negative aspects of it, but the uncomfortable aspects of it. Like if you're feeling anxious, if you're depressed. Oh, that's mental health. I don't struggle with mental health. I don't deal with mental health. No, we all deal with mental Health, just like we all deal with physical health because there's the state of the well being of our physical bodies. And so that's how I sum it up. And all of us at one point in our life, if you've ever been stressed, you've struggled with your mental health, if you've ever been sad, you've ever gone through grief, you've ever been fearful, you've struggled with your mental health. So it affects every single one of us.

I think you're right in the question, Trevor, that mental health can be kind of a, if I could say a turn off towards for Christians or churches because it is so popular in the social sphere or in government programs and improving mental health. And I don't know why sometimes we feel like we have to be against something if it's really big in culture, because it's not like a cultural thing outside of faith, it's just a human condition. But I think to connect it to some biblical faith, I think the word shalom really encompasses mental health because shalom in the Hebrew or in the way the Jews used it encompassed all of life. It was to be in a good place of peace with God, my fellow man, the land I'm living in, just in this place of wellness. And wellness, I think would certainly include what's happening mentally. And so biblical concepts like anxiety, worry, fear, doubt, shame, abandonment, rejection, like all of those play into our mental health. And the Bible has a ton to say about all of those topics and how we find ourselves in Christ, in our maturing and growth in Christ, working through some of those issues. And so I just want to make sure for some listeners that do have that maybe aversion to mental health of like, oh, that's a, you know, in Ted's, Robert's words, you know, psychobabble, it's like, no, mental health is a very biblical concept because it involves all of those issues that we face and that's a part of our growth and development in Christ.

Yeah, and I like what you guys are saying because it's broadening the definition for people where. Because when I hear mental health, I think of someone who's depressed or needs to be in a psych ward or is in a straight jacket or something like that, when that's more of what you see, maybe in the movies, but mental health encompasses so much more. And so it excites me that that's where we're starting because I think that maybe more people feel included in this conversation now moving forward.

Amen.

Yeah.

So Ben, I know that you've been a part of Josh McDowell Ministries and the movement that you're a part of kind of sprang out of that for young adults. And I know JMM has been a big part of research that you've been a part of some research and have now had tons of experience of working with young adults and people in this sphere of mental health. So what have you found maybe in particular in this season in our world? What are the particular challenges that people are facing and what are the struggles around mental health right now?

Yeah, I think of a couple stats. One was from 2019 and that's when teenagers polled said that it was 70% of teens say anxiety and depression are major issues among their peers. And then for young adults, teens, second leading cause of death was suicide. I think of a stat in 2021 that 41% of Americans were reporting symptoms of anxiety and depression. That number's gone. The people who did that survey, that number has gone down thankfully post Covid. But loneliness also is an epidemic. So I would put anxiety, depression and loneliness as far as the mental. I like to call it mental ill health rather than mental illness. That's a whole nother topic. But I think things are way too diagnosed and a disease based model has been copied and pasted onto mental health in this country. And mental health or mental ill health is not a death sentence. Yeah, I'm living proof. So many friends are living proof. You can find hope from suicide. Anxiety, depression, you can overcome these things because of neuroplasticity and how God has created our brains to change. Just like pornography addiction. Right. Some people used to say that addiction is a disease. We know that you can overcome it, you can heal, your brain can change. And so I've seen a lot of that in the research with people I've worked with and my own life. But anxiety, depression and loneliness are the biggest ones.

Yeah, it is interesting too because they talk about it and a lot of researchers, a lot of experts today will talk about how we're living in the most connected time the world has ever had, but also the most lonely time that we've ever had. And I think that that's what's unique and not just for young people. I think this is for anybody who lives in the online world, unless you're a hermit that lives somewhere that doesn't have the Internet, which sounds nice from time to time. But I think that that's a unique aspect. Cause you can feel this sense of I am connected, I do have community, people do know me, I and I think that that is a false community or false belonging. And so I think that that is something that lends itself to issues or struggles with mental ill health or whatever you want to call it, Ben. But I just think that that's something that we need to pay attention to when having conversations about mental health because there is this like faux belonging or faux connection that we can experience, believing that that's actually what's happening when it's not.

Yeah, our small group was actually talking about loneliness a little last night and how it feels like even churches are contributing to this because we're streaming everything. And so you can live in Indiana and go to church. Go to church by watching your favorite pastor in California every weekend. Not leave your house, not engage in a small group, because any discipleship tool is probably online. You could probably go through a class or watch some excellent teacher do a whole course on anything you want to learn about. So now we're not going to a Sunday school class or a small group to learn and grow and be challenged. It's. It's kind of this, maybe the fallacy that what I need is information. If I go to church and I hear the sermon, I get information, but information doesn't lead us to transformation. And we stay very disconnected from the people around us. I remember too kind of along these lines of loneliness, because I think that's a huge contributing factor. That loneliness in and of itself, I don't know, is a mental health problem, but I think it contributes and creates so many mental health problems. And if we're isolated and withdrawn from real community, we're suffering. And what I was going to say is, I remember, you know, in that season, the first year or two after Covid, that my family and I were choosing to find a way to go to church, make it work, you know, in spite of all the regulations we were all facing. And I counted up between arriving in the parking lot and getting back in our minivan, how many interactions I'd had with people. And there were at least 10 people just. And I didn't even go out of my way to seek someone out. But walking into the building, found a couple we knew were just saying hi, checking our kids in, knew the pastor there, talked to him a little bit, the people you sat next to. And so without. All we did was go to church, just like we would have online. But because we were there in person, we had 10 human interactions with other people. And it was like, man, I think we just miss how easily in today's virtual world we settle for non personal interaction, but think that we're still having relationships.

Yeah. And when it comes to loneliness, one of the biggest things we miss. I've been saying this for years, loneliness is not a lack of friends, it's a lack of meaningful connection. Because that's why we can say, hey, here and there. Be connected to people on social media. Quick dm, quick comment. But you can have all these surface level interactions and still feel lonely. That's why Gen Z are so lonely, because they're not. Many aren't being taught how to have deep conversations, meaningful connection, talking about your fears, your hopes, your dreams, stuff like the faster scale, how you're really doing, you know, check ins. And it's that, that meaningful connection with God and with others that cures loneliness.

And that's what's so interesting about social media is, you know, we have a mutual friend who lives on the east coast and I can see online what he's doing and feel like I somehow am involved in his life, but I'm not. And so that again, is that faux kind of connection where normally I would just have to call him or text him or FaceTime him to get that kind of information. And then there's relationship built in. And again, it's like. And to your point, Nick, it's not information equals connection either. It's actual connection that has to take place. Okay, so let's move a little bit into the church specifically. I think for many in the church, the issue or topic of mental health can be viewed as an unbiblical or non biblical issue and minimized in that way. How have you approached the topic specifically, mental health, in a way that you're using scripture, God's design, to speak on the importance of our mental health.

I go to the Bible.

Novel idea.

Yeah, novel idea. I learned this from Henry Cloud several years ago, got to spend some time with him and he was talking about, in the 80s, wanting to talk about healing concepts and whatnot. And people were like, I don't want to talk psychology with you. He's like, I don't want to talk psychology with you either. I want to talk Bible with you. And he really helped me see how many of these concepts are in the Bible. And so I go to so many of the narratives like David was anxious, he was running from King Saul and Saul was trying to take his life and he was hiding in caves. I'm like, that is a traumatized man who's so anxious and hiding. We also see so many examples of David being depressed and going through grief. In the Psalms, we see Job man, it's so profound. When he loses his health, his wealth, and his family, he says, why did I not perish when my mother gave birth to me? I've never said those lines, but I've been so depressed and suicidal and having suicidal thoughts at times. And so we see that example in Scripture. We see Jonah, he was so angry and running from God and maybe even filled with rage. We see that Elijah was suicidal, and we see Jesus and in the garden sweating. Not. What does it say? Not actual blood, but it was like drops, like blood, I think it says in the original language. But he was so filled with stress.

Stress, yeah.

We see all these examples of biblical figures and people we would say that we look up to or that are heroes of the faith, so to speak, especially Jesus. But these people dealt with mental health stuff, too. And so if it happened to them, why would it not happen to us? And if it was okay, Not. Not okay, but if more than okay, if God went to the extent to write this down in Scripture so that we would see it today and know that it's okay to struggle and that other people are struggling and struggling with your mental health doesn't mean you're less spiritual or less holy or less healthy or less godly. It's part of living in a fallen world. God wants us to know that. And he went to the extent of writing that down in Scripture for us.

Well, you think about when Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment, he quoted Deuteronomy and said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And both heart and mind kind of are two dynamics of what we would call throughout Scripture, the inner man or the inner person. And so I think biblical authors all had this awareness that we weren't just a body and we weren't also only a soul, like this eternal part that could commune with God and live forever. That there was our inner thoughts and our will and our emotions and our desires and the things that we want and feel and experience. Like, the Bible deals with that a ton. I mean, the Apostle Paul had so much to say about his struggles and wrestling with why do I do what I don't want to do? And where do desires come from and how are they transformed? And, you know, I think it's Galatians, chapter five, where he talks about the old self and the new man are in this constant tension between each other and what he's really, I think, describing. There is. There's kind of this inner person that is still being transformed, but has desires and wants and needs that are maybe contrary to what the Holy Spirit is birthing in us. So the Bible might use different language, and I think it's appropriate if we need to. You know, maybe we're reading a book or hearing a secular podcast on mental health. If we just translated a couple of the words and used like heart or inner person in place of what we're hearing, we'd be like, oh, they're actually talking about how God designed us and what sin and fallenness have done to us and how Christ is redeeming us. And maybe they're not doing it through the lens of faith, but it's all over Scripture when we start to think of it through some of those terms.

I go back to like Genesis and even like Psalm 139, where you talk about original design of how God created our bodies to have a brain that has a left side and a right side. That one is more experiential, one is more information. And then also he gave us emotions. It is literally part of the DNA of being a human being to have those. And so for me, that's where I tend to go, because I think that I won't necessarily. It could be kind of a hot take. But I'm not going to necessarily say everyone feels this way. But the pushback I tend to get, it seems like it's coming from a place of not wanting to acknowledge those negative emotions or what is perceived as negative emotion, not wanting to go back into the difficulties of life. So it's like I'll just bypass those and move on, when in reality they're actually. They're counteracting something that God's built into them. Being able to feel your emotions, being able to process the pain and difficulty that we have. And so I just tend to go back to original design, how God created us. Because if he just wanted a soul, he wouldn't have created a body.

Right? Yeah. That's good.

So in connection to what we do at Pure Desire, and Ben, I know part of your story as well is helping people overcome pornography and other issues with sexual brokenness. And when we talk about pornography and those types of issues, we tend to think of it more as a behavior or an action. But pornography also has a very negative impact on our mental health. So what ways have you seen pornography have that negative impact on mental health?

There's three main ones that I've seen. First, as we know, or if you've been listening or following pure desire for a while, you know the impact of pornography on the brain. Just thinking about the pre, you know, prefrontal, your frontal lobes, frontal lobe atrophy. Watching porn. Less oxygen flows to your brain. My mentor, Josh McDowell says if you, if you watch porn, you give up your brain. It just makes you a lot more reactive and procrastination and trouble thinking clearly. And we're seeing, even secularly, people quitting porn. Like I saw Steve O. Said he did a whole year of no masturbate. You know Steve O. From the show Jackass? Yeah, he did a whole year. And this guy is not a Christian by any means. Yeah, did a whole year of not looking at porn, not masturbating. And he said it was the most productive year of his life. And so we're seeing people in secular culture talk about the benefits personally, not to mention the benefits on the world and porn contributes, or is sex trafficking and all the harm done to relationships and whatnot. But firstly, the brain. You're gonna have the best functioning brain if you quit porn. And that's gonna help you be more focused, that's gonna help you be more vigilant with your thoughts. I know for me, particularly when it comes to anxiety, I feel like when I face a situation where I know that I'm going to become anxious, if there's certain things I am doing like, that are causing my brain to be in peak performance, like sleeping eight or nine hours a night as opposed to sleeping six, I know that I'm going to do a lot better in that situation and have lower anxiety or the way I'm eating, or less caffeine, all kinds of things. And a huge one of those things is getting rid of porn. You're going to be able. Your mental health is going to be so much better. Secondly is there's many studies showing a correlation between the amount of porn somebody consumes and the amount of anxiety, depression and loneliness that they're dealing with. Lots of studies, you can Google, Google them. But one that I think of was this was done a couple years ago at Steubenville University. They looked at college students who were lifelong porn consumers. And of those lifelong porn consumers, 20% of them had severe anxiety. And this was higher than the rest of the population on campus. And then the third thing I would say is thinking about my story, thinking about when I led groups for years, porn was such a contributing factor to depression and shame. It's like shame and depression would set me up to go to porn, but then porn would make me create more shame and depression in my life. And it was just this endless cycle. And I see that in so many people's lives. Because something a lot of people don't understand about depression, and I didn't understand for years, is that so often depression is caused by. By feeling hopeless about dealing with or overcoming a situation. A lot of times we think that depression is random, and I just got no idea what's going on. But if you start getting into, you know, faster scale type of stuff, and we know that on the faster scale, anxiety is not random. Depression's not random.

No.

The faster scale really helped me, my early years in recovery, figuring out why I was getting so anxious, why I was getting so depressed. If you master the faster, it's really going to help your mental health.

And so depression, the faster.

Master the faster. Yeah. Seriously.

Thank you, Mike. If you didn't even have credit. Michael Dye.

Yes, exactly.

In the Genesis process.

And so depression, it's feeling right. You get ticked off, you get exhausted, and then you're feeling hopeless about a situation and your ability to overcome it. And that's what I've seen in so many people's lives. So the way I would get address the double bind and get out of depression was saying, basically, what limbic lie am I believing from trauma in my life? Okay, I'm believing that I'm hopeless because, you know, I want to. I went on a date, I felt rejected or. Or I gave this talk and I messed up. And now I'm. I was criticizing myself and speeding up and ticked off and believing this lie that I'm never going to be as good as that speaker, I'm never going to get married, whatever, and completely sinking into that, believing it. And then the emotional. The emotional response of that thought, that belief is depression and feeling this complete amount of hopelessness and grief. And so working through that double bind, addressing it. It's been about 10 years of doing that, and now there'll be like one or two times a year I'll get depressed maybe for a day or two, as opposed to 10 years ago. I was living in depression, living in exhaustion.

Yeah.

One of the things that I think is a really important aspect to this, too, is we've already talked about shame, but shame really creating more and more isolation, pulling away from relationships. And I mean that obviously contributing to depression, suicidal ideation, you know, things like that, other destructive behaviors. But I really do feel like that is something that in this conversation needs to be hit again and again is the importance of relationships, the important importance of connection and belonging to a group of people. And this is where I think Christians, maybe even more than anybody, anybody Else have that opportunity inside of the church that you're able to have a connection with, with people who are on the same mission, are of the same mind, and are moving in the same direction toward Jesus. But, yeah, isolation is so damaging. And specifically with pornography, it's something I know, for me, I would isolate because I felt shame for the behavior. Yes. But I also felt double shame because I couldn't stop the behavior even though I knew it was wrong, which. Why would I want to tell anybody that? Which created more isolation. And so I feel like that is like the snowball that gets going, and then it just builds and becomes bigger and bigger as you keep going.

Yeah, yeah. When I look back at the seasons of my life where I've been stuck in use of pornography and all of that, the way I would describe it is like having a divided brain. Because there's a part of your brain that was kind of always on that. And no matter what phase I was in, you know, the way Patrick Carnes describes the four phases, like, first is the preoccupation. If I'm preoccupied, I'm starting to think about it. But I'm also, in my faith and in my integrity, trying to fight it. There's a part of my brain, like, always trying to push away. Don't think about that. You're not going to go there again. You promised God and your wife you wouldn't do that anymore. And so this part of your brain is always simultaneously fighting against the idea of lust and porn, but also somehow entertaining it. And if you take a step further, the next step is ritualization. And you're starting to go back into some of your old behaviors. Well, what happened there in my brain is like, well, I don't really want to think about what I'm doing now. I'm rationalizing. I'm denying it. I'm minimizing it. And I'm trying to maintain, like, normal life over here. But this other part of my brain is starting to get into my rituals of whether it's surfing social media or starting to hide little indiscretions. I'm divided. And then obviously, when you're acting out, and then there's the shame and the guilt and the remorse and, like, how can I do this again? Well, now there's a part of your brain managing that while you're trying to do normal life over here. And then you get kind of into the purge side of, okay, now I'm doing it right with God and others, and I'm going to get everything back on track. Well, it's all because this other part of your brain that has this undealt with issues with pornography. And so just everywhere you go, you feel like you've got this divided brain versus, you know, our faith calls us to integrity. And integrity is ultimately means wholeness. Integrity doesn't mean, you know, being pure and not liking it porn. It means being the same. And that what my brain is on at the moment is like, that's all that I need to be on because there's nothing else taking up all this mental space. And you do, I mean, a very kind of fleshly or human side, you can be more productive, you can be more focused, but also there's just more peace. There's more joy of, like, I'm not fighting this other side of me that I don't totally understand. And so I think the impact that had on my mental health was really hard for me to explain because I was so busy trying not to look at it or think about it. But if you'd have asked, do you feel whole or like there's integrity? It's like, no, I just always feel divided. And so maybe there's others out there that could really relate to that kind of feeling of that divided brain.

Yeah, totally. Okay, so let's look at the other side. Our organization and yours too, Resolution Movement, are focused on helping people, men and women, break free from compulsive behaviors. And specifically ours is sexual addiction. I know for you, you also have aspects of that that you'd speak to and really its impact on our life. So let's look at how the recovery journey from a sexual addiction or any kind of compulsive sexual struggle, how that impacts our health in a positive way. What does that look like?

Could you ask that again?

Yes, I know, I know. So how does the recovery journey from a sexual addiction or struggle impact our mental health in a positive way?

Oh, in so many ways. I think first, I think about relationships. As we talked about earlier, loneliness is not a lack of friends, It's a lack of meaningful connection. And when you get into pure desire or good recovery, I think specifically about a life of no secrets. When you develop a life with no secrets, where one or two or your whole group knows everything about you and you're constantly talking to them throughout the week and talking about how you're really doing, you feel known and understood and accepted, and that ends loneliness. And that would be one thing, because loneliness contributes to so many other things like anxiety and depression. Another thing would be, if I think about my own journey, the symptoms so symptoms of trauma and things we have dealt with in life often will come out through stress, anxiety, depression, porn and anger issue. The root cause is so often the same. And so in my life, as I was healing from or overcoming porn, what I was overcoming too was anxiety and depression. As I worked through the faster scale, as I understood that, as I started to put the pieces together and I continually go back to Proverbs 4. 23, Guard your heart for everything you do flows from it. And so thinking about in my life, anxiety, the pattern of anxiety I developed was very specific. It was a fear of rejection. It was if I had to thinking about high school or college, if I had to present before the class, oh, that would put anxiety through the roof or even now as a speaker. So sometimes that will happen or around people or am I going to be rejected? Am I going to be bullied? Bullied because my friends bullied me. Growing up, my dad was emotionally and physically abusive. And so that created this pattern of my brain is on alert, trying to avoid those things happen again. So anything that looks like it, smells like it, is like it at all, my brain would go into the state of fight or flight or anxiety. And that's because Proverbs 4:23, I had to look at my heart. What has happened to my heart? It had been wounded, everything was flowing from that or depression, same kind of thing. When I gave up fighting the anxiety, eventually I would agree with it. Rather than trying to avoid the rejection, I'd eventually give in and agree with the rejection that I am worthless, that I am not good enough. And that was kind of a way of man, if I reject people or if I reject myself first, then others can't reject me.

Yes, that's a thing.

And it's a way of kind of self sabotage or you know, self rejection, self betrayal, all those form of protection.

It's a performance. Yeah, yeah, uh huh.

And again I had to look at my heart. What had happened to my heart? Oh well, receiving this abuse, the rejection, these lies. Eventually the lies felt so real I didn't know they were lies. I was living out of these lies, believing that I truly was worthless. And that would just set me up again and again to feel depressed. And then so yeah, with pornography as well. Pornography was a way to escape and to cope with those lies and those feelings. So often it's similar root issues specific to us because none of them are random. We say that anxiety and depression are signals to be answered. Like God designed you to have a fight or flight system in your brain. To protect you, to jump out of the road. If you're crossing the road and a teenage driver comes, maybe one of Nick's kids learning to drive, comes peeling around the corner, I'm sure they're great drivers.

I know which one that would be. Oh, yeah, there we go.

There's one.

Your fear system causes you to jump out of the way. That's great. But the problem is that gets hijacked for relational issues, rejection, other things. And God designed your brain that way to keep you safe. But then we have to learn how to heal from that and overcome that. And so as we're growing in sexual wholeness, if we're dealing with it in the way pure desire deals with it, or if we're dealing with it holistically, spiritually, emotionally, relationally, physically, then what we will see, like I saw, is anxiety going down, depression going down, and some of those symptoms even going away completely.

Yeah, yeah. What I hear you describing, Ben, is that we're moving from the what to the why. And I think in our Christian upbringing, if we grew up in that environment, we were taught a lot about the what. So I know I'm feeling anger, or I realize I'm feeling lust, or I realize that I'm feeling down and reject it. And I think in some of that training, we just took the what to Jesus and we just confessed, I'm feeling angry. God, take this. I don't want to be an angry person. I leave it with him. And then you'd be right back there the next day. I'm feeling angry. I'm feeling lustful. I'm feeling. And so the what didn't get us very far. But in the process of pure desire, for me, it was all the whys of like, well, why am I angry right now? Because that comment someone made made me feel a little disrespected and disrespectful can attach to being valuable or good enough. And the fear of not being good enough is deeply woven into my story and some of my themes from childhood. And so I had all these light bulb moments through pure desire of the why being kind of like, oh, that's why. And even lust. We've talked about it a lot on this show, that it's not random. Yes, we do have the capacity for lust, but the fact that we feel it, when we feel it, how we feel it, is not random. It's associated to our why. And when someone helps us see the why. Well, all of those are mental health questions of why do I feel this? And so when do we begin to really gain that self awareness of understanding what's happening in my patterns of thinking, in my limbic system of the fight, flight or freeze. And I can answer some of the why question. Then I think I can really more authentically grow with Christ and others. Because now I'm just not trying to surrender the what, but blind to everything driving it, I'm actually letting people into that deeper stuff and being able to express those fears. I mean, I'd never really been able to voice. I have this pervasive fear that I'm not good enough, that I don't measure up, that I don't have what it takes. And when others hear that and know that about you and affirm you, it's like the level of connection goes way up the level of belonging. And now it's. And when you receive that connection, then you're able to receive it. Because it's not for your surfacey performance that got people to like you. It's like no, they actually knew me. They knew my fears and worries and doubts and they still accepted me. Well, now I feel like I belong because of my weakness, I belong because of my brokenness. And that's far more affirming in the long run than feeling like I only belong because of my success or my performance. And so I think that's where mental health is impacted for the good is we're answering the why question. And that takes us so much deeper with God and others.

I think one of the things for me too is that when dealing with pornography, understanding the why, getting behind the behavior, and then starting to create sobriety and sexual wholeness. What I also saw more clearly was other areas of my life that were impacting my mental health. Food fitness, was I getting enough sleep, even things like what procrastination can do to us. You're able to not only understand what's motivating these other behaviors that are impacting you at a holistic level, but then you're also given the tools to address those things. And so my second time through seven Pillars, it was far less about pornography and sexually acting out and had much more to do with food and my addiction to food. And then, you know, my life has been reshaped because of that. And so I, I feel like that's. And we'll kind of get into it a little bit later. But that's one of the things I think that can help maintain mental health for the long haul is when you're able to address an area like this that keeps you in isolation and Shame and not only pulls you out of those things, but then gives you the tools to address anything else that you have in your life too. Because there is so much that can impact our mental health, not just our sexuality.

Yeah. Amen.

So we, we've discussed here the. The benefits of recovery and mental health. And thankfully, not everyone listening to the podcast is in the midst of their recovery. You know, lots and lots of people are there maybe years down the road, they're in a new space. And so what would you say to. To them, Ben? Or maybe someone listening in who sexual brokenness hasn't been their story. Maybe it's a loved ones or there's another reason they're listening to this podcast. So we don't have to be in recovery to be working on our mental health. What are other approaches that you would encourage people to take that could help them address their mental approach outside of the whole sphere of recovery?

There's lots. And as I think about it, the theological framework is, I've thought in my life a lot like this is the cost of discipleship in following Jesus. Because following Jesus is. It's not about coasting in life. It's not about gratifying the flesh. It's not about being a poor steward of your time or money or body. It's actually being a good steward of your. And worshiping the Lord with your heart, mind, soul and strength, being a good steward of your body, of your mind. I think about 1st Thessalonians 4, 3. This is God's will, your sanctification, flee sexual immorality. And to your point, integrity, same root word of integrated. And so wholeness, we're following Jesus is about wholeness. And so it's really discipleship, investing in our sexual health, our mental health, physical health, emotional health. And so outside of recovery specifically, I think there's so many other practices I've started that have been helpful for my mental health. One of them is 24 hour Sabbath. Started doing that almost two years ago.

Nice.

And that has just been so good in making it a point to try and not hit stress at any point in those 24 hours and setting up my life in a way where I don't get stressed. That means leaving sometimes 30 minutes early to go to church or whatever and driving the speed limit and keeping the stress down. It means trying not to do dishes or laundry or anything like that during the 24 hours. It means pleasure stacking and topping off the night with time with God and a good cigar and listening to my favorite podcasts and spending time with friends. And what I found is what I practice on Sabbaths has started transferring over to the other six days of the week. So I find myself driving slow, getting places early, you know, being off my phone more way. Yes.

God's way for life.

Yeah, Being off my phone more. And it's like those habits start carrying over and then causing my mental health to be better because I'm less stressed, less anxious, not on the faster scale as easily. Less chance of me getting all the way down to exhaustion, depression. That would be one. Another one is I do a 30 minute prayer walk six days a week and never have thought of myself as a prayer warrior or like big prayer, it doesn't come naturally. But to get in my body and to calm my nervous system to go for a walk, the body is the temple. That has been a huge theme because on that 30 minute walk I'm praying through different things like Psalm 103, the benefits, and reminding myself of the benefits to following God and how he forgives all your sin, heals all your diseases, spending time with him. And I'm taking my eyes off of the stress, the tasks of the day and I'm doing that. Another thing that's been huge is just having a hobby. A hobby where during that hobby all you're thinking about is the hobby because it consumes your mind and your body so much. And for me that's lifting weights. I've gotten real into it, like nerding out like the protein and you know, the movements and all of that. But when I'm doing that, it's like I'm. Yeah, it's like I'm so focused on that in my body, it's like hard to think about anything from daily life. And I think having those breaks. And that's why we see a lot of top leaders, like they're already so busy but then they make time to become a pilot or to start this hobby because it just creates an interruption in your brain from always being on and focusing and thinking. And then what you eat is important too. I quit caffeine for 10 months.

Sorry.

And people like I'd been to the doctor and talk about my mental health and they're like, you need to get the stress down, get the anxiety down. Caffeine. That's what they kept saying. I was like, there's no chance. I'm in this specialty coffee. I'm going to Portland, I'm going to drink all the pour overs.

I'm going for it.

Cream. Don't offend me. I don't Want to ruin the coffee? Don't ask if I want cream and sugar.

Shots fired.

But that's how I was. But then it got to this point, okay, following Jesus wholeness, whatever the cost. And so I quit caffeine, and I kid you not, my nervous system and the stress in my body, I realized I didn't so much have a caffeine and stress, or I didn't so much have a stress and anxiety problem. I had a caffeine problem because I would start each day on like a level 2 out of 10, intensity of just. It felt like static and stress in my body and my nervous system on alert. And then when I quit caffeine, I was starting out at zero. I felt like I was actually in restoration on the faster scale, not being, you know, not lying about being in restoration on the faster scale. So hopefully those things are helpful to some people.

Yeah. The only other things I wrote down, I think those are all good. I think really, honestly, any spiritual discipline, something that slows you down and enters you into relationship with the Lord is really important. I think therapy is an excellent thing. I can't speak more highly of it. I also think journaling, that's one of those things, too. It really slows you down. You can engage all your senses, your emotions. And then I just wrote down taking care of your body, like, not just what you eat and drink, but also sleep, moving your body around. Gosh, even last night, one of my mentors was talking about how important it is once you eat to just start moving your body almost immediately and how that actually helps break down the food and keeps you in a healthier space. And just like, well, great, I'm going to start walking more after lunch. You know, things like that. I think just looking at it from.

A holistic perspective, I think we're at a day and age, even in the church, where even if it's not a therapist or counselor, there are a lot of other people operating in that sphere that could help with mental health, like spiritual directors and coaches. And I think just the value, even if it's a close friend, that you really respect them for their wisdom. That value of balancing things off, another person who can see your blind spots better than you can, you know, can help you take a look in the mirror. Because we're used to seeing what we've always seen, but another person can ask a question a slightly different way and suddenly maybe an issue that we've been having, and it doesn't have to be about recovery, it could just be one of those things. You listed Ben of where we're stuck in something now. We're getting some ideas generated. We're working on it. I also think about how important it is just to have a sense of purpose to our daily life. And I know Jay Stringer had in his book Unwanted that, you know, men who lack purpose are seven times more likely to struggle with pornography because the world will give us all kinds of artificial ways to feel good or feel a sense of, like, belonging and desire if we don't have something within us. And I'm a big advocate that would say I don't think we have to have this one defined overarching purpose. Like, my life exists to teach third graders God. You know, if you get super specific, awesome. But I think I hear from a lot of people that maybe I have this anxiety about, I don't know, my one specific purpose. And it's like, well, maybe it's a little more broad, but just having a sense of. Based on how I'm wired, who I am, what I think God really is calling me to in my life. And I'm working towards something. I'm moving towards something that has a sense of purpose in it that just starts to change, I think so much else that appeals to us to kind of create that artificial purpose and cause those mental health issues. So I think that, again, could be where a coach or spiritual director, or maybe there's a pathway at your church or a seminar you could attend that helps you kind of unpack. How do I define purpose for myself? And even kind of having an overarching rule of life or a statement that says, this is what I'm about and how do I structure my life around that can be very, very significant.

Okay, so let's look at it from a faith standpoint. How do we approach mental health through our faith in a helpful way, like avoiding spiritual bypass or leaving faith out of it completely?

It's a good question because I think traditionally what we've seen in the church, just like. Or not just the church, but with Christians in general, is we saw this with pornography or sexual addiction. You know, just. Just stop it. Or it's just sin, or it's just because your original sin on one hand, and I'm seeing this a lot with young people, Gen Alpha, Gen Z, they're growing up in such fundamental. As a fundamental brand of Christianity that they think. They literally think. I get comments all the time. The anxiety, depression, all those things are only caused by demons. And they're like, see, it's in the New Testament that's the only cost of it.

Wow.

And so on one hand I'm seeing that. On the other hand, traditionally what we've seen is if you're anxious, that means you're filled with fear and you're lacking faith. But fear and faith, a lot of people think that they're polar opposites or not or that they're mutually exclusive, but they're not. I look at throughout the Bible, there's so many people who were filled with fear but took a step of faith at the same time.

Courageous.

And we've done that in our life. It's like, yeah, being courageous. It's. God is calling me to do this. I'm a little bit nervous, I'm a little bit scared, but I'm full of faith that he's going to show up and that he's calling me to do this. You can be afraid and faithful at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. On top of that, I think understanding what happens in your brain with anxiety and depression, if you understand just even a little bit about neuroscience, a little bit about addiction. It's funny in, in some of the research I've done, just getting into my own story and my own brain is seeing the similarities, and even some psychologists will say this, the similarities between anxiety and depression and addiction, they function kind of similarly because they're releasing neurochemicals into your brain or filling your body with neurochemicals. They're a way of protecting yourself. And anxiety in my own life became so addictive and it wasn't like a conscious thing. It was just like.

Was it like your baseline?

It was my baseline, but it was also something would happen and within a split second I would just feel anxiety rushing through my body. And I felt like I had no control over this. You know, for years I was like, how am I going to overcome this anxiety? Because it's like an automatic reaction. And then my therapist taught me that anxiety is always caused by a subconscious or conscious automatic, negative thought and a visual that comes with it. And so I had to really identify what is that thought. And as I identified the thought, I started seeing patterns like, okay, I'm afraid of rejection, I'm afraid of not being safe. That's triggering anxiety. Split second neurochemicals, it's the neurological pathways, like an addiction. And I had to start interrupting those. And that's how I've overcome anxiety in so many areas of my life. So those are the two, I think polar opposites we can, on the spectrum we can get to. But I think just Diving in again to Proverbs 4:23 and seeing throughout Scripture how many people have dealt with anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts. Realizing that this is a part of fallen humanity. These things happen to everybody. And you can be fully faithful following Jesus and struggling with these things. Who and yet God invites us into, into more, to more freedom. And it starts by understanding the why. What's really going on here? How did this begin? How has it rewired my brain? And this become a pattern that I'm struggling with and then learning to think about in my own life? It is, you know, take thoughts captive. I think about, think about things that are true, noble, right, and pure. I encourage people to think about what you're thinking about. Yeah, so many times we're not even interrupting the cycles.

We're just letting it ride.

We're just. It's like flushing the toilet and going down in the shame cycle. The faster scale, the anxiety, depression, letting it ride. And we're told to think about things that are true, noble, right and pure. And I learned that with anxiety in my life. I wasn't doing that real practical example. Maybe no one can relate to this, maybe some people can, but I developed this intense fear on overpasses. I was going through a stressful time and I just started having these intrusive thoughts about falling through overpasses and just thinking that this thing's going to collapse. Who built this thing?

And in Texas, there's so many of those.

There's so many. And the biggest one in the country is right by my house. It's five levels up and it's about 95ft. And so I didn't know how to do this at the time. I wasn't guarding my thoughts. I wasn't taking thoughts captive. I was literally driving over that thing. All these intrusive thoughts, wow, I'm going to fall through this thing. What if I fall through? Wow, that's real high up. Like, just all these thoughts. As opposed to being vigilant in what scripture says. No, what's the truer story? And the true story is knowing the stats. Like, these things hardly ever break or break or fall through. And there's no earthquakes in Texas and I'm really safe up here. And plus, God's in control and he's protecting me and he's sovereign and all those things. And so I started doing that when I would go over those overpasses and that's how I overcame it, is I would think about the true story and be vigilant with my thoughts. And I would visualize being safe up there. In Psalm 99, the Lord is a refuge to the press, a stronghold in times of trouble. Just visualizing this bubble of safety around me. And then the anxiety started to go away. And so, so much of it is our thoughts and these biblical ideas that we're not just knowing, but knowing how to apply and live out to overcome these things.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, I love that idea of thinking about what we're thinking about. And sometimes we do fall prey to that mindset of, I can't help it, that's just what I'm always going to think. It's this automatic thing. But not realizing even in a split second how much is taking place for me, it's often how quickly my brain can determine, well, if this happens, then that might happen. And if that happens, could happen. And ultimately then I'll be a failure. And there'd be this pathway that ends with me in failure. But my brain, in a nanosecond could go through the four stages. And so now I'm reacting to failure, not actually what's going on in the moment. And so learning just to evaluate what am I thinking, what's driving it? And when I start to feel that, what's my redirect like, what do I start to think about instead? What Christ says is true, what I know to be true. It made me think too, about. Many of us have seen a great message that John lynch did on the two pathways. And in that message he talks about our vision of Christ that like, there's this great pile of our sins and he's over on the other side of it and we're trying to work our way through it, be like, Jesus, I'm going to get there. I'm working really hard. I'm going to get over there to you. And how often we might think that way in our faith when the truth is that Jesus is actually on the side of our pile of sins with us standing right there, his arm around us, like, yeah, I know about all this. None of it's a surprise. Let's go to work on it. And I think about that when it comes to mental health, if we think that somehow this is a departure from scripture or we're just hanging out in the self help section at Barnes and Noble because there's no Christian books on this and God is kind of waiting for us to fix this so we can be with him, that's not going to help us. What if instead, in any area of a mental health journey, whether it's fear, anxiety, depression, Shame. All the things we've talked about today, if we really have a sense that Christ is right there with us, saying to us, in this world you will have trouble. But take heart, I've overcome the world and let's go after this together. And every step of that journey, we're doing it with him and through him. And in his strength. It just makes a real difference, I think, in the energy we can bring to it because we know I'm not alone, I'm not doing this in my own strength, that I have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to walk this journey of discipleship and maturing and growth in Christ. And he's with me every step of the way. So I think that simple mindset is a huge difference maker.

Really quick too. As you guys were sharing, I was thinking about Jesus and Ben, you talked about really kind of broadening the definition of mental health and that Jesus experienced mental health struggles too with the stress. But you look at his life and if that's true, the definition, then you can look at his life that he pulled away in times to pray and be in silence and solitude. He constantly had people around him, close, close relationships, that inner circle of relationship. And so I think you can even just. And that's a way to definitely keep your faith involved, is to look at the life of Jesus and just follow after what he's doing.

Yeah, I remember a mentor of mine, he had a little booklet where the four gospels were rewritten to just be like one seamless story. No, none of the words changed, but.

They just rewrote the gospels.

Yeah, they just made it one seamless book. And it was called the Life of Jes. Jesus. And he went through it and said, what I'm going to do is I'm going to underline every time. If I was Jesus, I would have been anxious. And then I'm going to really think about how does Jesus respond. And he's like. He had underlined like hundreds of times. We're like, man, that question would have made me anxious. Those people leaving would have made me anxious. The people bringing this woman in front of me would have made me anxious. And just learning that pattern of a non anxious response because Jesus knew who he was, knew where he'd come from, knew where he was going, and had that settledness in the Father. Yeah, just really cool exercise to think about. So Ben, like in so many areas of life, you know, we tend not to be stagnant. We're either growing and moving in a healthy direction or we're declining. And maybe Sliding away towards unhealth. And so, as we look to wrap up this episode, what would you say are some ideas or strategies that people could continue to employ to make sure that for the long haul, we're moving in a healthy direction with our mental.

Health to play the long game? Think about this as a lifestyle change for life. I mean, so many of y' all who have been through recovery, you know, as you started out, it was like, how am I going to not look at porn for a whole month?

Or alone the rest of my life? Yeah.

Yeah. And that's. That's how it was for me. Like, it seemed impossible. I could not imagine, and I didn't want to imagine my life without porn. I couldn't see the truer story and what God wanted to do and what was on the other side. And now I wouldn't trade it to go back to that lifestyle, because now I'm living such a robust life of fun and freedom and let's keep going with the Fs, faith and fellowship.

Food and come on.

But it's just so much better on this side. And I think the same thing is true with pain and struggles in our life. Painful yet familiar is often easier than the struggle of change and the cost of change. And so we can get content in these struggles. But Jesus calls us to shalom and wholeness. And Adam Yan, he's a therapist. He says that God is passionate about your mental health. He says something like this, forgive me, Adam, if you see this. God is so passionate about your mental health because he's about shalom and the restoration of all things, restoring the damage that sin has done, and it has wreaked havoc on people's mental health. And Satan is called the father of lies by Jesus. And so it's no wonder that Satan comes after our mind and gets us to believe lies and whatnot. And so I'd encourage you to see this, rather take the pressure off. I mean, that's what you want with mental health. Don't add more pressure on. See this as a journey. See this as a lifestyle. Jesus's yoke is easy and his burden is light. Take it one day at a time, one week at a time, one year at a time, one decade at a time. I just hit 10 years of freedom from porn and masturbation. Never thought I would see that. If you told me that 10 years ago, I'd be like, nope, I'm out. I'm not doing this pure desire thing. I'm running too much. You know, I wouldn't want to Know all the stuff I would have to go through, all the work I would have to do. And I didn't need to know that 10 years ago. I just needed to take it one day at a time, one principle at a time, and walk with Jesus through it and carry that burden with him and others. So that's what I would encourage you is to do if you're really struggling with your mental health, if you're kind of struggling, if you just want to grow a little, start implementing a discipline that we talked about today, or start seeing a therapist or start reading a book on mental health. Pick up my book, Free to Thrive.

There you go.

Yeah, I think it is just really important to think about. Sanctification is a process, and that is like, in this world that's full of sin, it's God's design for us that we will grow over time, not that we'll mature overnight or become this perfect thing overnight. And so just know that anything that you do is going to be a process and that the rhythms and the habits that you have, they shape who you're becoming and will be eventually. And so just to always focus on. And I love what you're saying. It's not this big thing, like, and I love this. We've talked about commitment to change in group. It's like, I'm gonna wake up at 5am every day of the week, and I'm gonna read my Bible for five hours. It's like, well, what time do you start work? 7. It's like, all right, dude, that's not gonna happen.

You know, like.

And you've never been up at 5am in your life, but just that starting small. And a guy that we follow, John Mark Comer, says this a lot. Just start where you're at. Don't start where you think you should be. Just start where you're at. And that's gonna be super helpful.

Yeah, I always like the running analogies. And I think a lot in this area, it's to run the mile that you're on, that all you can do is run the mile that you're on. And if I spend too much time thinking about the miles that I've already run, I can lose sight. I can maybe over train because I'm like, well, I ran fast yesterday, I'm gonna run fast today. Or vice versa. If I'm thinking too much about the miles ahead of me, I can get discouraged. Like, that's so far. I can never get there. And in essence, you're trying to run them all at once. And I think sometimes when we're facing issues, like we've talked about today, of depression, anxiety, fear, shame, failure, like just all the stuff that idea, like you said about pornography, Ben, of like, being totally free of it, like, is that even possible? Like, how I can't see any way of getting to the finish line of this part of my journey. It's like, great, you don't have to run the mile you're on. Like, what right now is having the deepest impact on your mental health. And would you be willing to face that with the help of God, with the help of others in your life, to take that next step, as you were saying, Trevor, and be in that mile as long as it takes to run it well. And what will happen is that season will change. You'll find that maybe the issue that you started addressing changes a little bit and now you need to take another step or go in a different direction, or you find that the anxiety was actually more about caffeine, or you found the anxiety was actually more about your family of origin and some unaddressed stuff. And now you're like, oh, to address anxiety, I've got to go into that too. Like, okay, now I'm on a new mile and I'm going to run this one and I'm going to take those steps and just committing to keep running that next mile. You do look back at times then and see, wow, it's been 10 years. And I never would have believed I could go to this 10 year mark. And it's now just my way of living. Well, that's what happens when we just keep taking those next steps. And so whatever it is for you, our listener, like, that's why we do this podcast, is to encourage you take that next step and trust that God will meet you there. And then when you need to go beyond that, he'll meet you in that one, too.

And may we stop trying to run other people's races. Yeah, like, I'm never trying to run the race. Whatever Shamrock Shake race you ran the other day, like 24 miles, 8am no, thanks. I'm gonna run my race, which is walking 30 minutes a day, 60 days a day, exactly six days a week.

That's right. This was a great episode. I think it's going to be really helpful for a lot of people. Maybe someone who is experiencing light anxiety and isn't really sure what's going on, or someone who maybe is in a deep depression. There's a lot of hope and a lot of possibility and we just love having you with us, obviously in person more than we do online. But appreciate you being here, you sharing your story and everything. So thanks man.

Absolutely. Thanks y'. All.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody. Write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.