356 - Reconciling Addiction & Theology

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma.

Hello.

Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 356 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

So easy. A caveman could do it.

Oh, it's my favorite. Oh, my gosh. Okay, those commercials, that was probably like five or ten years ago when they were Geico commercials, and then they just started doing another run of them. Like, all these years later that Geico's come back to that same caveman.

Yeah, it's kind of the. What's the Geico? Gecko versus the caveman. And, like, which is the best pitch artist? You know, what's the best commercials? And it turns out they're all about the gecko.

They are.

I love that he ends up on the outs. And the ones with the caveman and his wife were like, he thinks it's a documentary about. Actually, he's just the foil that's prepared to the gecko. She's all mad.

I love that. The one where they look like they're about to go to bed and he's like, oh, they're doing it again. She's like, what? It's so easy. A caveman can do it. He's like, come on, you don't need.

To say it out loud.

He absolutely hates it. Okay, well, tie this in. I'm interested to see. We had. And listeners have no idea, but the Ben Bennett is actually sitting in the studio while we're doing this intro. But we had him in the studio today to talk about reconciling addiction and theology.

You know what's funny about the new commercials with Geico is the way they're kind of unpacking the caveman's identity and some of his sense of like, well, this is who I am. And now if I'm not the spokesman, because the gecko is. And who am I? And am I not the greatest? I think when we talk about theology and addiction, we're really talking about a paradigm shift of moving away from maybe how we've seen ourselves, how we know ourselves, what we think churches should do or what we view as being like, well, this is the church's topic and this isn't. And for a lot of us, if we were to unpack our upbringing, addiction was just not something we associated with faith, with Christianity. And so we may be living in this world where it's like, well, no, I've seen myself this way. In the church this way. I don't know how to embrace something new and different. And yet maybe, like the Geico caveman needs, we need to embrace that we can still have value, worth, and identity, even if there's some new things we have to learn. And so, yeah, it was great to have Ben on for a second episode and unpack, I think just some of the hurdles that we might face as we think about how do we align what we believe to be true about God and scripture with what we're learning about the brain and addiction and some things that may, on the surface, not immediately feel like they're reconciled easily. So we tried to unpack that today. And Ben brings a wealth of knowledge and experience himself. And, yep, I know people are really going to enjoy what he has to say.

Yeah. And I. I really do think as a. As an individual, you will get an. An understanding of how to integrate these two things. But I also think that this podcast will be a tool to help you communicate with maybe your church leader or maybe with pastors on understanding this. So it is definitely a good episode. We know you're going to enjoy it. Here's our time with Ben Bennett on reconciling addiction and theology. Benny B. Since you're here in person, we thought we'd do 2.0. Let's do another episode. Take two. So welcome back.

Good to be with you.

Do we want to tell people, like, what you guys just ate and just kind of give them that precursor? So, hey, heads up if, you know, there's like, I don't know, interruptions in the episode.

Slip into a food cone? Is that what you're suggesting?

Yeah.

If the audio drops off, don't worry.

Ben's just asleep because we had too many buttery biscuits. That's.

Yeah, yeah, it sounds weird.

Okay, so Nick had a great description of them.

How did you describe them?

How did I describe them?

Anyways, we don't have time for this.

We'll do it later. They're half. They're buttered, they're grilled on the grill top.

There's brisket, there's an egg, there's gravy.

And now everyone does food relapse.

Come visit us. Come visit us here in Toronto. We'll take you up to the briskets and gravy food.

Briskets are part of your arousal template. We will keep you away from it.

Hey, we got other options. If that's your issue.

That's awesome. Okay, well. Okay, so not starting very serious. This is a serious topic. We had a listener recently send in a theological question regarding addiction and how we understand it in light of Scripture. And Ben, I know you're a Bible nerd and you're an author who's explored this kind of reconciling of addiction and theology. So you made sense to have this conversation with for sure. Let's just jump in with this. When someone says to you, I don't see addiction in the Bible, how do you respond and how do you reconcile your theology and what you know of scripture with the concept of addiction?

I think if somebody understands a working definition or has a working definition of addiction, if they're, I mean, if they're thinking about drug addiction, whatever. But if you understand a common definition of addiction is any harmful behavior or activity or any behavior or activity that's harmful to both yourself and others. There's a lot of addiction in the Bible. In fact, entire letters were written by Paul to address addiction and what people were dealing with and the sin they kept going back to. I also think of Romans 7 where Paul talks about why do I do what I don't want to do? And the thing I don't want to do, I keep on doing. And he's talking about this wrestle of wow, there's this harmful behavior activity in my life that I keep returning to and that I don't want to do. I think Ephesians 4:17 and 19. I'll read it. Henry Cloud told me that this is basically a. These three verses or four verses? Three. Math is hard. Are biscuits.

Yeah.

Are basically a graduate or a grad degree in addiction. A master's degree in addiction, if you understand what they're talking about in the cycle of addiction. So, so I tell you this and insist on it in the Lord that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do in the futility of their thinking. And so Paul's talking about Christians and he's saying, hey, don't return to the way you used to live or how the Gentiles live. And so futility of your thinking. This is how it starts with addiction. Like we're hurting. We start to think, oh, maybe I will. We start being tempted, we start thinking, maybe I'll go to that thing. I know I shouldn't, but maybe I'll use that. Or look at porn or drink a little bit too much and it starts to cloud your thinking. It's a futile way of thinking. It's not a life giving way of thinking. Then it goes on to. They are darkened in their understanding. And the more and more you think that way. If you have a story of addiction, you understand this, you start to get darkened in your understanding. It clouds your ability to ration and reason. You keep doing things you don't want to do. Then it says they're separated from the life of God. And as Henry explained this to me, he was talking about the life source, the abundant life that God has brought you to live. Where you're connected with God, you're flourishing with God, you're living in his ways. You start to get disconnected from what you need the most in your addiction. You need life. As one speaker has said, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And we see kind of that theme in this, the life of God, connection to him and his ways. And that goes on to say, because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. How many of us have said, man, I keep going back to that. I feel hardened in my heart. And specifically, I don't feel as guilty as I used to. I don't feel as. I'm not weeping over my sin like I used to. I know in my story, when I kept going back to porn, I got so hardened in my heart, like, I couldn't even really see how this was hurting God. I was just. I had worldly sorrow where I was like, man, I feel bad doing this, but I didn't have godly sorrow where I was like, man, this is breaking the heart of God. As Jesus hung on the cross, he was thinking about me and how he'd forgive me. And yet that wasn't causing, like, an emotional response or, like, grief over that sin. Then it goes on to say, having lost all sensitivity, numbness, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity. And they're full of greed. And so it just walks through how somebody even becomes addicted. And apart from Christ, we're all addicted to sin. We keep giving into certain behaviors and activities that are harmful to both ourself and others. And some neuroscientists would say, well, addiction always has to include, you know, the dopamine and the reward pathway. And a lot of sin does, whether it's overeating or over drinking or even anger and the rush that you get and continually living and speeding up and irritating ability. So often sin is going to release dopamine in neurochemicals. And we create fixed neurological pathways. And so I think that's one of the clearest scriptures, Ephesians 4, 17, 17 and 19, where we see addiction.

Yeah, I think those are all great examples. And I think sometimes when people say that, what they mean is that I don't see the word addiction in the Bible. And that would be true though so many topics that just because we don't see the word in the Bible doesn't the concept or the ideas aren't there. And we shouldn't expect the Bible from 2000 years ago to employ modern language or concepts. I mean truly the word pornography is not even in the Bible. The word porneia is close and they have some associated roots, but it's not anywhere near the same word. And so we deal with a lot of things currently that we say, well, I can make sense of this by some different things I see in scripture. I think if we talked about addiction through the lens of doing something that we know to be wrong, but we want it anyway and we're willing to lie, manipulate and even hurt others to get what we need. I mean, that's clearly what David does in his story with Bathsheba and all the COVID up and what went on there for him to get kind of his way in having her. You see an example of it where Gomer, who was married to Hosea the prophet, and Hosea shows her this incredible redeeming love of God and yet she still runs back to her former lovers. And how interesting that that was meant to be this metaphor for the people of Israel, because really Israel throughout its history showed as a people like a kind of addictive behavior, that they would know God for a time, they would walk with him, and then whenever a godly leader would pass away, they would be seduced back into idolatry. And as you mentioned, Ben, there was a lot of, I'm sure for them there was appeal to that. There were types of parties, there was sexual activity, there was, you know, something I could see and feel and touch and say, oh, this is my God and I'm going to worship that. And so they would go through these binge purge cycles essentially as a people throughout their whole history. And it would seem pretty evident that if Israel can do that as a nation, that we easily can do it as a people within our own patterns of walking with God for a time or doing the right thing for a time, and then being seduced back into the quick fix or the thing that feels good for now, even though we know it's wrong, we know it's not helping us, but we keep going back. And when you start to use that language, it's like, well, yeah, the Bible is full of examples of People that return to old, unhealthy places and don't seem to be able to break out of that pattern without God intervening and sending them a deliverer or a savior or something to really break them out of their pattern.

I said this on the previous episode, too, but I really go back to original design that science is now revealing how our brains are wired, how we're created, how trauma impacts us, our reaction to it, motivations of addictive behavior, how it rewires our brain. And those are all things that existed far before we found out in science that that's what's happening. And so, for me, that is one of the easiest way to reconcile addiction and theology is understanding that, you know, Dr. Ted says it, that the enemy hijacks our brain, hijacks that system that God, you know, the reward system God's put in our brain and then uses it for evil. And I really think that that's something, at least in my mind, is something that's easy to wrap my head around, is to understand that the way God designed my brain to latch onto habits and get rhythms in my life and start continuing behaviors that bring about joy or comfort or pleasure or whatever. Like, our brains are designed that way from the Lord, going all the way back to Genesis 1. And so I think that we have to also understand that though there may be. There may not be, like, a sermon that Jesus gave on this, that doesn't mean that it wasn't God's original design to have. Because if you really do research and you look at the science, it's unbelievable what happens in our body and the ways that it is able to track. You know, there's. We've been thinking of, like, the process of myelination in your brain, how you form habits. You get to the point where you don't have to think anymore. You just. Something happens, and you automatically respond and are into a behavior. And God designed that for us to use to follow and worship him and be in relationship with other people. It's just misusing the way that. What God originally designed.

Mm.

It seems like we all already answered question number two.

Did we?

Do you think we should ask that still?

I have another.

Well, I see you have David and Bathsheba, which I just mentioned. Right.

But it's. Yeah, but it's a little bit different.

Yeah.

Because I got more thoughts on that.

Okay.

Not David and Bathsheba specifically, but biblical examples.

Okay, well, if you guys got more, then let's go for it. So we've already mentioned a couple, but, Ben, are There any particular Bible stories or examples from Scripture that when you're trying to explain the concept of addiction that you can turn to and help people understand addiction through this biblical lens?

So I think about a couple other things, like Proverbs 3, 5, 6. I believe it is, we know that where it talks about, trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him, and he will make your path straight. I've looked at that from the lens of it's actually revealing addiction as well. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. You know, a lot of times we apply that with just following Jesus in general, those verses. But, well, what happens when you struggle to trust God with all your heart? What happens when your heart has been wounded? And so trust in the Lord with all your heart. If you can't do that or you don't do that, or thinking about when you're a kid growing up, sometimes it is to even have the awareness of how to do that. What's the outflow? Will you start to lean on your own understanding. You make sense. You filter things through the lens of shame. My parents did that, or I was bullied because of this. So now I'm believing, leaning on my own understanding, that I truly am worthless, I'm inadequate, I'm not good enough, I'm not loved. And then says, and he will make your path straight. Well, what if you're struggling to do those first two things? Well, then your paths are going to be crooked. And so that's another example of where we see addiction in Scripture and specifically trauma responses, and how trauma and wounds and hurts in a fallen world can lead somebody down the path of addiction. Another one is in Isaiah when it's giving a prophecy about Jesus and it says that he will come to heal the brokenhearted and set captives free. Adam Young, therapist, says that theologically there's a linkage between brokenheartedness and being a captive. And he talks about when we have brokenheartedness, when we have wounds, when people aren't there, when they're supposed to be, when we're bullied, when we're abused, when we're traumatized. The natural outflow of that is to become captive to something. And that's the language of addiction. We become captive to our sin, to struggles, to substances.

Yeah, I was thinking about biblical stories, and David of Bathsheba comes to mind, and maybe a little different than what you were saying, Nick, but 2 Samuel 11, David is like at his own place. And it says at the time when Kings Were at war. And then that's when he sees Bathsheba. And what we know of addiction is that it's a coping behavior, a coping mechanism for pain, trauma, difficulty in life, stress, anxiety. There's so many different things that can move us into a coping behavior. And I was just thinking about it that David, I'm pretty sure I would argue at a soul level, he knows he should be at war, and he's just chilling at home, and there's this potential discomfort he's feeling. And then, oh, there's this beautiful naked person I can see over here. So I'm gonna go pursue that then. Obviously, if you look at how damaging that one coping behavior became over time, you know, I think that's significant. But I look at stories like that, and I think this is something I've had to. It wasn't how I was trained or came up with reading the Bible, but trying to be sensitive to what that person might be feeling in that moment or how if I was in that situation, I would react or I would think. And sometimes I can read the Bible for just information, But I know, like doing the sword drill or stuff like that, you're trying to enter into that experience and think, what might that person have thought or felt or heard? And that's just something that came to mind for me as I was preparing for the episode, Is that I think David coped with this unhealthy behavior. This behavior he knew he was wrong because of the potential inner conflict he was experiencing when he knew he should have been at war. People may say, I'm taking liberty, and that's totally fine. That's just a story that came to mind.

I think it is a good example where a lot of the concepts that we talk about at pure desire, that we feel, drive addiction, are everywhere in scripture. The idea of unaddressed wounds and trauma from our past driving unwanted behavior in our present. I think you see a really clear example of that in Gideon in the book of Judges, where when the angel of the Lord finds Gideon, he's hiding out in a cave, threshing grain in secret for fear of it being stolen by the enemy. And the angel appears and says, oh, mighty warrior, you know, God is going to use you to deliver Israel. And his response is to say, like, who am I? I am the least of my tribe, the least of my family, essentially, in several ways, tries to say to the angel of the lord, I'm a nobody. I can't do this. But I think in that moment ends up having a genuine encounter. And after his whole fleece prove it kind of story, he goes forward in the Lord's strength. And you think, oh, man. Now Gideon is a. He's a healed man, but you actually follow his story. He begins to revert. Because when they first destroy the enemy, it's all about for the glory of the Lord. They make the shot, you know, for the Lord. But then like a chapter or two later when they go to win another battle, this time they say, you know, a sword for the Lord and for Gideon. Like, Gideon is starting to sneak back in there. And by the end, it says that Gideon actually makes an affad, which would have been inappropriate for him to do. He was not a priest or of the priestly family. He essentially made a priestly tool to use as a way to discern the will of God or really to do things in his own power and strength. And the story kind of makes a sad commentary on Gideon that it led far more people astray than any of his victories led people towards the Lord. And so I think you see there his need to be somebody, his need to measure up, to be a someone that even though he encounters the angel of the Lord early in the story, he kind of comes back to his unresolved trauma, that it has to be about him and his family and trying to perpetuate his name instead of the Lord's. And it becomes a huge trap for he and his family. And so I think, again, just one example where we see unaddressed trauma and pain clearly impacting someone's story. And I think we could pick out a number of other examples of things like that that happen in the Bible.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So our theology says that God's all powerful. So for some Christians, that means that any problem we bring to God, he should be able to heal it or fix it. It's not that we don't believe that he can't do that, but why, in your experience, Ben, and as we're kind of all thinking about it, do prayer and faith alone not heal people from addiction issues?

Sometimes they do. Obviously, I think we both know people who that's been the case. But more often than not, what I've seen and what I think I see in Scripture is God is more about the process than the product. He's more about the process of day after day, thought after thought, recovery meeting after recovery, meeting, therapy session after therapy session. You know, the. What he's doing in you, rather than just taking an addiction and a behavior away. He wants you to be in the process, to be growing with him going deeper. And he wants to do so much more than just you to stop a behavior, you know, the cliche we're about. Or he's about heart transformation, not behavior modification. And he does that when we're in process, over time in relationships and growing with him. And ultimately because he cares about who we're becoming, who we're living into, and our behavior matching up more and more with the person that he created us to be.

Yeah, yeah. I like to ask the question, you know, is it any less miraculous if it happens over the course of a year or even two years versus if it happens in a moment? Because I think that sometimes what we're expecting is like, well, God should just, you know, immediately deliver me of this. I should be free of it. And I believe he has the power, too. And I think we hear a few stories. But more often than not, people have to walk through a process because God is healing incrementally all these broken places in their thinking, in their brain, and. And what we know of, as we've talked about already, that the brain is physically impacted by habitual use of pornography. And so to walk through redemption and healing, it's like learning this new way of life that couldn't happen in an instant. I think about it a little bit like if someone came to the doctor and says, doctor, I have all kinds of foot pain, and he tries to prescribe a routine of physical therapy and care and all these things to heal their foot, and they're like, no, I want the pain to be gone. Just give me a new leg. And, you know, this is a little graphic, but technically they could just cut off your leg and give you a prosthetic that you would no longer have foot pain there. Well, you wouldn't have a foot anymore either, but the artificial one wouldn't hurt the same way. And so which would be better? To have that amputation and a new foot or to have gone through a series of therapy where your foot is strengthened and you're able to walk and run like normal? And I think that's what's happening. Dr. Ted Roberts, our founder, always talked about it that way, that for God to heal in an instant, he'd have to tear out your brain and give you a new one. And he's not going to violate you like that.

Just the mental image of that is.

So aggressive that God wants to do a healing work in all of these areas that have contributed to it. And I've thought, too, because that's very much my story, that over the course of A year. I feel like I found incredible miraculous healing. But it wasn't just that I stopped my behavior with pornography. It was all of the things I learned about why I did it and my sources of trauma and the lies I was listening to and where those came from and the ways I'd connected success and value and worth to my identity or sense of well being. And had God just miraculously healed me, I wouldn't have seen any of those things. I would have still been very ego driven. I would have been very performance mindset in everything I did. I would have been very oblivious to the way my behaviors were hurting my wife and others. Like all these pieces that were a part of the healing journey and be careful not to, it doesn't mean I'm perfect now. Like, God fixed all of that immediately. But in that journey, so much was being healed that had I experienced a miraculous healing at the altar, like I'd prayed for many, many times, I would have only healed maybe in that one behavior, but perpetuated so many other sinful patterns. So I think when we look at it that way, it's like, wow, God is doing a sanctifying work and the places he gets us to are just as miraculous as if he did it in a moment.

And I think that that's the model we should use when thinking about this question is, we all Christians believe that sanctification is the process of growing into holiness, becoming more like Jesus. And we understand that model clearly that at salvation we don't just become perfect. It is this progressive sanctification that happens over time, that, you know, once we die or Jesus comes back, we're now living in glorification and perfection happens there. Because that's my sermon. No, I would just say that that model right there, that's the same model for recovering from addiction. We already have that model in our heads. We just are applying it to a specific area of unwanted behavior that we can't seem to get healthy in. And so it's the same thing where you may have a moment of. And we all kind of have that where something just clicks and it's like, oh, okay, I totally get it. I remember hearing Dr. Ted talk about cocaine in the brain. And what pornography does is very similar in the brain. I remember that just like snapped it into like clarity for me. And that started the process of recovery. And so I think that that reaction too, it's just, I don't know, we all want that Jesus moment that just comes and happens because it takes so much less work. Jesus just heals pulls my brain out graphically and shoves another one in there.

But new brain, please. Yeah, totally.

But again, like, we already have that model in place. And so I feel like that's important to say to Christians that this isn't a brand new model of thinking. We already have it from Scripture.

Well, and you guys, I know both been on health journeys. If you think about someone who is, you know, let's say, 100 pounds overweight, and if they pray for God to heal them, God may in that moment have begun healing work. But I've never. And maybe you have, but I have never heard of a healing miraculous story where they walked out of a prayer service 100 pounds lighter. Right. Maybe God healed something in their brain, but they actually then had to go out and maybe eat differently, start to exercise, like they had to do some hard work to live out that healing. And I think that may be some truth too, of if we've been involved in pornography and sexually addictive behavior, many of us, for like, decades, it's like we're 100 pounds overweight in our mentality or in our sexuality. And God, through a moment of repentance and surrender, may have given us some seeds of healing. But if we don't go then and live those out, we're still way, way overweight and unhealthy in our sexual thinking. And so we're having to learn to practice these things. And that's what takes time. And so when you get to that place where you're 100 pounds lighter or sexually healthy, it didn't happen in a moment because you had to then go work out your salvation, so to speak, as Paul says, work it out with fear and trembling and put into practice the things that God had applied. And that just. That takes time. It really does.

So, yeah, absolutely.

Ben, I know here at Pure Desire and what you do with the Resolution Movement that we involve a lot of brain science, we talk a lot about mental health. And so in case someone didn't hear the previous episode where we touched on this a little bit, how is using information like that consistent with Scripture?

One of the things I often talk about is how if you look in the ESV version alone, just do a word study on words like mind, think and believe. Hundreds of times that appears in Scripture. And throughout those times, there's a huge emphasis on what we're supposed to put our mental energy towards. You know, we're told to take our thoughts captive, think about things that are true, noble, right, and pure. We're told that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, that we're in the spiritual battle. And then in Second Corinthians 10, 3, 5, it talks about the fiery arrows of the enemy and that we are supposed to distinguish those, fight against those Satan's called the Father of lies. And so there's all this imagery and all these scriptures about our minds and protecting our mind and what we think. And so much of what we think dictates and believe. What we think and believe dictates what we do. And a lot of it can be conscious, but then it can be subconscious. There can be. Because so many decisions we're making on a daily basis are subconscious. A lot of times we're living out of these limbic lies or these negative core beliefs about God, about self, about others. And our behaviors follow those as well. And of course, Romans 12:2, y' all talk about that one a lot. Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world. I like to think about and really flesh out. What does that mean, the pattern of this world? It's this pattern of fear. It's a pattern of lies. It's this pattern of there is no objective truth. Do whatever you want. It's this pattern of, like we read in Ephesians 4, giving into sensuality, being your own God, being darkened in your mind and your understanding. It's a pattern of addiction and coping and do whatever feels good. And then Paul goes on to say, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. It's interesting he doesn't say, be transformed by the renewing of your behavior or of your lifestyle or of things like that. He says, no, it starts in your mind because this is the battlefield we're in. And every single thought, belief and action that we take, every time we're kind of redirecting our thoughts or taking our thoughts captive or change. Catching. My therapist calls them catching and switching our thoughts, noticing, oh, my gosh, I'm going negative again, or I'm going to that fearful thought, or I'm spiraling, or going down the faster scale. You start catching and switching and telling yourself what is true over time. That is what it means to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That, yeah, is creating new neurological pathways and gets easier and easier to the point where your new pattern of operating and thinking is not what it was. I've been free from porn and masturbation for ten. Ten years this past August. So ten and a half, almost. Yeah, ten and a half. And I can't remember the last time I was tempted to look at porn. Because it's almost like I've been going the same direction for so long, thinking a certain way that I've got new neurological pathways. And just this thought of looking at porn, it's like it's almost not even an option. It's not even on my mind anymore.

Yeah, it's like a foreign language now.

Yeah. I was just thinking about, you know, in Genesis, when God's talking about the marriage, that a man will leave us, you know, father and mother, and will unite with his wife and the two will become one flesh. That at a neurological level, at the point of orgasm, or even I'll get into the skin to skin thing with babies. But there is something in a neurological that happens. Chemicals that are released in your brain that for men, releases a sense of protection and wanting to care for this person. And then, I know for the female brain, at a point of orgasm, it makes them want to nest and hunker down and be secure and safe. And I think that there's some of that in the design as well that you see in Ephesians 5, 1st Peter 3, with men and women in roles. But I also think of when you're born, the first thing they do if everything goes okay in delivery, is they put baby skin to skin on mom or dad. And it's because there's chemicals released in the brain that are bringing connection and those. Again, the hijacking of that system is that when you're looking at pornography at the point of orgasm, you're bonding to what you're seeing. Not only bonding to that, but you're bonding to yourself. And so it messes with the system that God already has created. And I feel like that's what is so cool about the way God designed and everything. And so understanding the brain science actually brings a lot of information to this conversation about how addiction can be something that is really just a repurposing of God's original design.

Yeah. The problem or the challenge with this question is probably if someone sees, like, faith and science as two opposite ends of a spectrum, which I really think would be an artificial spectrum, because it would suggest that if we know how something works, then we're not having faith in God anymore versus what we're unpacking. I think when we talk about the brain and neuroscience and some of the things that are happening is we're just exploring how did God create and design our brain to work. And I actually feel like the more we discover about the brain, we're just unpacking the genius behind some of God's design. And it's fascinating to go, man. Our brain has the ability to learn and to grow and adapt. And these things that we see in scripture science is actually now saying are true. And so we don't need to see it as a threat of, oh, if someone starts talking brain science, that's not the opposite end of this spectrum from faith. It may be through the lens of faith and a strong belief in God's creative genius that's helping them unpack what's going on in their brain and then ironically, the outcomes, because there are definitely people doing brain science work and mental health that have nothing to do with God. So that's maybe another problem we have is like, well, a lot of the sources are non religious or non Christian. It's like, okay, well, we may not be able to take wholesale what they're saying because everybody practices from their own theology, whatever it is. But what we can learn, like what I was going to bring up is the example how much even in secular conversations about the brain, how important they say meditation is and deep breathing, like everything I see that's about mental health. It'll emphasize 4x4 breathing, meditation, journaling. And it almost makes me laugh. It's like Christians have been talking about these things for thousands of years and what we just didn't know was that, oh, not only are those good because it centers me on Christ, but there are actually things happening in my brain. When I slow down and I meditate on God's goodness, it's replacing some of those thoughts. I mean, think about when you're in a prayer gathering with people, you, everybody just tends to slow down and like you breathe deeply and you rest and that's anxiety goes out. And so science can tell us what's actually happening at a neurochemical level, but we've been doing those things for a long, long time and just didn't realize that the benefits that again, I think God designed them are beyond even just, oh, well, it recenters me in my faith. Well, yeah, but it also helps my brain get to a healthy place, helps my body be calm. And back to a word we talked about in the episode before this one. It kind of helps me reintegrate my life, my body, mind and spirit. Like I'm integrated back into a wholeness versus being kind of fragmented in all these different places all at once. And so to me, it speaks to again the truth of God's design. If secular outlets are advocating for the very kind of practices we've known for centuries are good for us, but now we understand a little more of why they're so good for us.

Yeah. So let's press into that. And I think that because it maybe comes from something that's outside of scripture or a secular source, a fear can be really common among Christians that psychology or science can pull people away from their faith in Jesus. But I would say from my experience, I think you guys would agree, many of us who've been on a recovery and healing journey, it actually increases our faith. So how can a recovery and healing process strengthen someone's faith and bring them closer to the Lord?

By really getting you to press into hard issues. In summary, think about what Jesus said and how he came for the sick, not the healthy. The healthy don't need a doctor. And what that meant was he came for people that knew they had a sickness of sin, they knew they had brokenness, they knew they needed healing. And so when we, I think about God gives grace to the humble when we press into that and admit our need, because that's where you got to start. You know, whether you hit rock bottom and admit your need or you're confronted by a spouse or just your own behavior and you're like, I, I need help. That's when we, you know, are admitting, walking into that humility and saying, we need God to heal us and we need him to use other people to help us. And so that'd be the first thing is it causes this greater intimacy with God when we admit our need and invite him in to those places. Another line of thought is that, you know, as Pete Scazzero talks about, we can't be more spiritually mature than we are emotionally mature, and I would add relationally mature. And we see this in the great commandment. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as you love our, as you love yourself. And so the relationships we're dealing with are spiritual with God, emotionally with ourself, and then relationally with other people. And we see that in the Great Commandment. And so often many people just try and grow spiritually through spiritual disciplines or reading and praying. And yet it's not an intimate relationship. It's a knowledge based relationship, knowing a lot of the Bible, you know, and that's how many of the Western churches and ministries are set up just to grow in intellect. It's like we're a brain with two legs. You know, the. I've heard that the enlightenment changed that and caused us to think about that, that we're just a brain with two Legs. But we're holistic beings. We're spiritual, emotional, relational and physical. And so as we press into that, as I learn to be fully known and fully loved by God, flaws and all, and as I learn to be fully known and fully loved by other people, those go hand in hand. I'm going to be able to be vulnerable with people. If I can sit there and be vulnerable with God about my deepest pain, about my deepest sin, and vice versa. Otherwise there's going to be a blockage there if I'm not willing to go there with God or not willing to go there with other people. And then we grow similarly in those levels of I'm growing with God to the degree that I'm able to grow with other people. So in the recovery journey, it's about all of that. It's about I got to admit my need. I got to press in. I've got to have people, I've got to be vulnerable. And one of the biggest things is almost like a reversal of Eden where I have to be naked and unashamed, not physically, but not in recovery, but like emotionally. It's the symbolism there. I gotta take off the fig leaves emotionally and allow my true self, AKA who God created me, to be, to be fully known, loved, my hobbies, my interests, my insecurities, my hopes, my dreams, my fears, and to let other people see me and to let God see me.

Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned Genesis 3, because I think that really is a picture of the human condition. And it is very difficult to overstate the significance of shame in our lives. And in Genesis 3, that's what happened. It says they ate and they felt shame at their nakedness. So it's not just that there was something wrong with my body, but they feel this shame for the first time that there's something wrong with me and I need to cover up with God and other people. And without realizing it, I think all of us to some degree have walked around with that shame covering of there's something wrong with me, and if you saw the real me or knew all of me, you would reject me. And even in faith, even in Christ, we can still be walking around with that because I think our faith teaches us that Christ forgave what I did, he forgave my sins, but we don't know what he does with me, the sinner who there's something wrong with me fundamentally. And I can't tell you how many people I've done group with that have lived their whole Christian faith. That way of feeling like, well, the only reason I'm in God's kingdom is because I said the magic prayer. And he told us that anyone who prays and believes in Jesus, he has to let them in. But if God had his way, he'd rather not have me at the table with him, that I'm seated way, way down at the furthest end, I'm at the kids table of faith because God doesn't really want me with him. Because what they're expressing is there's all this shame about who I am. And so Christ forgives what I've done, but what about who I am? And I think in the recovery journey, when we start to understand where that voice of shame comes from in our life, what were the maybe negative experiences in our childhood or formation years that created the sense of brokenness, that there's something wrong with me and that caused me to put on the fig leaves to cover up between God and others. When all that system gets exposed and I'm able to be authentic and the true word of intimate with other people, that I'm fully known and fully loved, that then I'm able to move through shame into understanding how God feels about me. You know, that was so much my first experience with group was walking into a place with people I'd never met. And by the end of that group experience, having shared some of my very deepest stuff and the details of my struggle and how it created a sense of really being valued and loved by them because they knew it all. Like for the first time I was in relationship with people that knew all of my stuff and they didn't run away, they didn't reject me, they loved me. And I think because of that it felt like, man, if they can sit in the presence of all my weakness and my failures and love me, how much more can my heavenly Father do that? And I think then I experienced God's love where before I knew it. So shame is just that block that when we really walk this recovery path, we actually get, I think the tools and the language to deal with shame that otherwise can prevent us from really knowing and experiencing God like he intends us to. Which back to what you said, to be naked and unashamed. So not physically naked, but that sense of I'm totally unburied before God and others and I'm valued and loved and known and now I feel safe to just be me.

Yeah.

And to your point, real quick, I'll interject a lot of us view and I dealt with this for years. Dr. Ted helped me change this. But A lot of us think that God simply tolerates us rather than really loves us. And it's perpetuated by this idea of identity in Christ. Or we take these concepts like, God looks at me and sees Jesus. He doesn't see my sin. And what. We run with that analogy way too far. And so we think, okay, God loves Jesus, not me, or God loves me because of Jesus. So I've started to think through and shift my language to identity because of Christ rather than identity in Christ. We have this new identity because of Christ. 1 John 3:1, we're loved children of God. That's about you. That's not about Jesus. It's not. Jesus isn't the one becoming a love child of God. No, it's you. It's about you because of Christ and what he did on the cross. Now you are a love child of God. But even before you were in Christ or reconciled to God, Genesis 1, you were made in God's image. In Psalm 85, a lot of people quote Psalm 84, which says, who are you, O God, that you're mindful of man? And we don't quote verse five, which says, yet you talking about God made them talking about humans only a little bit lower than God. So this idea that human beings, even apart from Christ, are so lovable and valuable, yes, sinners. But now, as a Christian, you're a saint. You're no longer referred to as a sinner. And so it's you that God loves, values, and believes in. And it's God looks at you and sees Jesus, but he also looks at you and sees you.

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point.

And you guys are talking about individualizing our faith, that it's not this corporate thing. And I think that with that, too, comes purpose and vision for your life. You know, God has gifted each of us uniquely this, you know, kind of unique, you know, combination of different things and gifts, giftings and experiences and senses of humor and ways of seeing the world. And, like, God wants to use us at an individual level. It isn't just that we're used as a part of the church. Like, yes, we are a part of it. But, like, you know, think about, you know, my kids, like, I have a very unique role in their life. Like, I matter in that, you know, in their spiritual development and they in their maturity as, you know, young men and into being grown men. I also think another thing, as you guys are talking, is just the importance of relationship, that that's where in relationship is, where you practice the One another's. You don't really do, like, you know, think of what Jesus said, like, where were you when I didn't have clothes? Where were you when I were hungry? They're like, what are you talking about? He's like, well, what you did to the least of these, you did to me. And so it's the idea that how I love other people, how I respond to difficulty in relationship, how I forgive, how I'm generous, how I'm kind, those are ways that I'm serving and worshiping the Lord through this horizontal plane of relationship. And I think that addiction keeps us from those relationships and so really does hinder our faith or the playing out of that faith. And so I feel like our maturity is contingent, like our spiritual sanctification maturity is contingent on our ability to be in relationship. And that is contingent on are we addressing the things that are blocking us from doing that? Shame, addiction, things like that?

That's good.

Yeah. So kind of an angle on this, and this is a bit of a hot button topic for some, so I want to be thoughtful how I ask the question. But there is an approach to counseling that would be called, I think by a lot in that camp would be called biblical counseling. But we might even go a little further to call it like Bible only counseling. And it's kind of a mindset that says all that we need to counsel anybody is the Bible, the word of God. And I want to be clear even as I ask this question, we, and I believe wholeheartedly in the word of God that it's true and it's absolutely the foundation of everything we do. But there's a mindset about counseling that says, well, that's all we use to counsel people is the Bible. And when you run across that way of thinking, how do you maybe offer a counter viewpoint when they are kind of contradicting some of the things you bring up in your book and your ministry and we do in ours. That's like, well, yeah, this isn't just a Bible verse that I'm quoting at you. I'm going to use these other tools. But how do you kind of work with someone that maybe has that Bible only mindset when it comes to counseling?

Yeah. The challenge is I've met biblical counselors who would call themselves biblical counselors. And they go to the biblical counselor seminaries and whatnot. And yet they bring in psychology or they bring in, as they call it, these other areas of influence in your life that have affected you. And some of the things I was talking about, like Proverbs 3 or Proverbs 4:23, they'll bring in the concepts of trauma and whatnot. Where I get nervous is where people don't bring that in at all. Where strictly your issues are because you're born with original sin. And the simple why behind all of your behaviors and sin isn't trauma, isn't external influences, it's just your heart. And that's why you keep looking at porn and that's why you keep getting anxious. And the reason that makes me very nervous is it cuts people off from the deeper healing that God wants to do by exploring the why, by exploring the deep seated pain that Jesus wants to bring you or bring that he wants you to bring to him and to other people. And quite frankly, what we see all throughout Scripture. And so that's why it makes me really hesitant because there's, as we know, there's so much more going on in our life than just the behavior. And what's interesting too is the different camps, like on the other side of the spectrum, you can have Christian counselors who barely use any Bible at all.

Yeah.

And you can think, oh, this is going to be great. It's going to be a great perfect pairing of my faith and psychology. And I've met with counselors who like, they barely talk about, you know, faith at all. It's just very heavy on, on the psychology. And of course what we know about psychology. There's some pretty unhealthy at odds to Christianity views, especially like 100, 200 years ago. But I think it can be challenging to find the sweet spot. And kudos to your ministry and the legacy of Dr. Ted where it's just been like the Bible in one hand and psychology and neuroscience in the other. And that's what we try to do at the Resolution Movement at Joshua Gal ministry too.

There's just so many thoughts that are coming to mind. Like, you know, you think about tools like lectio divina or other maybe Bible application, you know, tools that we don't see taught in scripture, but how somehow that is thought that that's okay, you know, or that that's like kind of inside the canon, so to speak. I just struggle with that. When that's just a tool that was developed by a human mind to implement or apply God's word into someone's life. It's like, well, that's really what I mean, that's what we do here like at Pure Desire. And I know that's what you do in your ministry too, that there are these practical Tools we use that are just helping you apply God's word, the reality of how God designed you and who he is into your life. I was also thinking, and this is kind of stupid, but, like, not. He's not stupid. But Rodney Wright has said this kind of funny thing. Rodney Wright is on staff. He talks about, like, I trust God, but I also take my car to the mechanic. Like, and I don't see a car mechanic in Scripture either. But it's like, it doesn't mean that I'm not trusting the Lord. It doesn't mean that his word isn't still, like, sovereign in my life. If I take my car to a mechanic. And I think that there's something to that, that my stewardship of this car is not to lay hands on it and hope that Jesus, like, fixes the radiator or replaces the clutch, you know, like pulling our brain out. God just comes in, rips the clutch out, and puts a new one in.

Amen. It's so much cheaper. Please.

So much cheaper. Dude, sign me up for that plan, seriously.

But again, it's that thing where just because I didn't go to the Bible to get my car fixed doesn't mean that I'm now sinning because I've gone to a mechanic. Now if I mean, you can get into all kinds of things. Like, I understand how we kind of get there and how we steward. Those things make sense. But that to me is a principle that I think about in this question where it's like, if there was a tool that you knew would help unlock something in someone's brain to help them receive the truth of the Lord and his Word, then let's explore that. It's funny too, what you were talking about. There are therapists who use or counselors who use all psychology and know Scripture. My therapist is a Christian, but we hardly talk about the Lord. And that's more of where I come from. I come from a very Baptist, even some traditional background. And so for me, he's working on loosening some of the screws to get me to experience my relationship with the Lord. And so what I'm saying is, what I've seen is that integrated, that middle of the road approach can be super, super helpful and has been for me, totally.

And I think too, we have to be logically consistent. Like just proposing the question, is it consistent for me to say I'm totally. As a Christian, my conviction is I'm totally at odds with seeing a counselor or a therapist. Yet when I get sick, I'm going To the er When I break this bone, I'm not waiting around for God to heal me. I'm going to take medicine. I. I'm get cancer and I'm doing chemo. I want to lose weight and gain muscle. I'm hiring a physical, physical trainer. I'll tell you what I have. Look, the Bible doesn't say a lot about how to gain 50 pounds of muscle and how much protein to eat.

Is that your goal? And how to.50.

So give me a couple years. Hey, yo, how do you do certain movements? Yet it does say things about being a good steward of your temple. And for me to be a good steward means I need to take care of it. And I'm just not going to just pray that I gain 50 pounds of muscle. I'm going to go learn. Yeah. So I think we need to say okay and really challenge our hearts. Like, okay, I do those things. I go to the doctor, I go to the gym. I'm okay with hiring that. Even in the field that I'm in, I've got a coach or whatever, but for some reason, I can't get behind going to see a Christian therapist. Well, I would propose a question. Are you being logically consistent with your thought process to be against that, but pro all of this?

Yeah. I remember when I attended Bible College, I played football there for our small Christian school. And we actually played, I think, a science church that didn't believe in physical trainers or, or on the field. So, like, they would come, like, they had no ankle wrap. It was all prayer and faith. It's like, man, I don't want to play on that team. But there were, I think, some consistency issues. But for me, this question comes down to, like, the difference between the foundation and tools. Like, we're consistent with the foundation being the word of God, that Christ is the only path to healing. But there are tools that help us understand or put us in touch with that foundation. I look at Scripture itself and say I'm thankful that Jesus didn't use Bible only counseling. Because when he talked to his disciples into the crowds, he didn't only quote the Old Testament and we might say, well, that's Jesus. He gets to do what he wants. And to a degree, I get that. But how often did he use parables and stories and look around and say, well, look at this farmer, and he's scattering his seed. And he was trying to teach principles about the kingdom of God through other tools that would help that crowd and that audience understand what he was there to say and to do And I think when we talk about things like neuroscience or some things we learned about human behavior through psychology, we're not leaving scripture. We're trying to help the crowd or the audience that's listening through an illustration understand at a deeper level who God is and what he's saying to them, but we're not leaving scripture. So you've got Jesus telling parables. You've got. I think it's in Athens when Paul uses inscriptions from the idols he's seen around the marketplaces, part of his sermon. And so he's connecting with what they know and understand to bring them to faith. And even in many of the New Testament letters, there are actually verses that you and I now know of a scripture that. Remember when Peter and Paul were writing those letters, they didn't know they were writing scripture, but they were frequently referring to hymns or songs that probably the house churches were singing together. And they were putting that in their letters because it was like, hey, here's an example of a way that we worship God. Well, now we think of it as scripture, but. But their mindset was not like, well, if it's not in the Old Testament or Jesus himself said it, then we can't use it. They understood, I think, the principle that it was all about Christ and building greater faith in him, but using other tools or ideas and concepts that were at their disposal to help people embrace the healing work that God wanted to do. And I think that's what we're all about at Pure Desire is not in any way thinking we need to add to Scripture, but seeing that for so many Christians that have grown up, like you said, Trevor, they've grown up with scripture their whole life. And just knowing the scriptures about faith and repentance and freedom and healing and all that haven't actually produced healing. And so it suggests that somewhere there's kind of a block. There's a blockage between what they know to be true and what they're experiencing. And that's where some of these other tools that we can bring in can help them unpack and reveal maybe what is creating that block to ultimately then put them in touch with the God of their soul and of their life that longs to be with them forever and experience them in a new way. And so, yeah, I just. I think some of those concepts have been helpful to me when I think about what we do and why we do some of the things that we do.

Yeah, so. And I think this is something that maybe we've all struggled with at some point, but where have you found that those who struggle with an addiction may have, like, wrong or inaccurate theology, and especially in how it impacts our view of God himself?

I think a lot of people, their default theology, perhaps because of what they've heard being taught, but also perhaps of the enemy. And going back to Genesis 3, is that it all comes down to self and shame. Like, the reason I'm struggling, the reason for my addiction, is the original sin that I was born with, even though I'm a Christian. And so the implication of that is that I don't have enough discipline, that I don't love Jesus enough and hate my sin enough, that I'm just such a selfish, rotten person and I don't care about other people the most. And that mentality, what got you into an addiction, and that's not the mentality that will get you out of an addiction. You know, Romans 2, 4. It's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance, to change our minds. And what needs to be healed is the shame and the trauma and the pain. And that's not to excuse any of the sin, any of the damage, any of the selfishness, but it is to explain that there's a deeper why behind people's behavior. And that's what we talk about in Free to Thrive in this whole biblical model, informed by psychology and neuroscience, of what's actually even happening with people who are struggling with unwanted behaviors and mental health and addiction. And that we see this biblically. And so there's more to it than just original sin. You're a complex human being. You've been through things. And as we see in the narrative of Scripture, again thinking back to David in first and Second Samuel, when he was on the run from King Saul, we see he's riddled with anxiety. He's, like, in a traumatic state of panic, and he's hiding out in caves. And there's just such a metaphor there of trauma and pain and then some kind of response, some kind of protective response. And that comes out in. In all of our lives. Or even back to Genesis 3. Like the choice that was made in the garden and the deception and the manipulation from the enemy that a lot of times we don't talk about. You know, he was called the serpent, was called the most. What is it, deceptive or crafty?

Crafty.

It's called the most crafty. I think it's interesting that Scripture goes to length to show he's the most crafty. Have you all ever met, like a narcissist, a super crafty manipulative person. Like it is very easy to fall for their tricks and to be like what, what happened or to be gaslit. It's not to excuse Adam and Eve from. For their choice, but there was a lot of that going on and then the shame that happened and the blame and then the behavior of a fig leaf and covering themselves. And so I'd say look at, look at scripture and understand there's more going on here. And then understand that what got you into it is not going to get you out. You can't shame yourself out of an addiction. You can't shame yourself out of pain and what happened to you or what you're struggling with. And you need the kindness of God and to be seen and known and loved and to learn, but then also to experience who God truly says you are. In a safe community.

Yeah, I think we find a lot of people that are still stuck in an Old Testament view of God in a New Testament era because they see an image of God that is vengeful, not just at point some sin, but it's sinners that can't tolerate sinful people in his presence that is looking to zap you if you burn the wrong kind of incense in front of his altar. Like is mentioned multiple times about Aaron's sons in the Old Testament. And yet we read in Hebrews one that says in the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at various times and in many ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son. Then it goes on to say that the Son is the exact representation of his being. The sun is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being. And so that idea that what we see in Jesus is true of God and that what we see in Jesus should help us reinterpret our view of God. And yet I think in particular, when we've battled with sexual brokenness, pornography addictions, we are stuck in a mindset that sees kind of a disqualification approach of I've been disqualified from ever having real faith or, or really being loved by God. I'm always going to be kind of on this JV team of faith. And God is angry about how I've acted, but because of Christ, like you were saying earlier, Ben. Well, because he sees Christ, he loves me, but when he sees me, like he's really disappointed, he's ashamed. He feels, you know, back to Rodney Wright's phrase, he likes to say God wasted a draft pick on me because I'm really a disappointment. And I think, too, how many people have actually created a personification of God out of their earthly experience with their father or authority figures, because there is some human nature in doing that. We assume that what our earthly father was like is in some ways just a caricature of what our heavenly Father is like. And yet we really have to do some hard work to distance those two and say, God is not my earthly father or anything like my earthly father, except in the ways that my earthly father was portraying the things that are true about God. And so I think in the whole process of recovery, we do unpack all the ways that we have developed a view of God that is more based in our own sinfulness and our fears and misunderstandings of who God is than they are in truth. And when we can welcome in a much more Christlike version of God that is much truer to how he feels about us, that he partners with us. He's the God who, when he sees the prodigal coming home, is filled not with disdain and regret, but is filled with love and compassion. I think it really begins to shift our mindset about God and helps us rewrite our theology in a very healthy way.

My theology professor in seminary unpacked Exodus 34,6,7 in a pretty unique way that I thought was really helpful, because you guys are right on that. It impacts the way that we see ourselves or the way that we see God seeing us, but then also how we view him as this angry, furrowed brow, glasses on the tip of his nose, looking down at us, kind of God. And he said it this way, that when the Lord passes by Moses and says his name or his attributes, compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, abounding, steadfast love and faithfulness. Every single one of those. And this is something that we can easily forget, is that two chapters earlier, they had boiled all their gold, made this crazy idol. And if you even go a few chapters before, he specifically tells them, do not make an idol out of gold, in Exodus 32, they make an idol of gold. And God knows this when he says that he's compassionate and gracious. And so my theology professor said that when God is revealing his character to Moses, he's saying, I am compassionate to golden calf worshipers. I am gracious to golden calf worshipers. Like, slow to anger with golden calf worshipers. And so to keep in mind that God is not, like, disenfranchised and unaware of who we are, what we're like, that God still chooses and did, even to your point, even in the Old Testament, still chose to love very sinful. Like actively two chapters before Bottom of the mountain. God's probably saying this while they're still worshiping. There's still some of that going on. So to just keep that in mind, that God doesn't pretend you don't have sin anymore. Or to your point earlier, Ben doesn't just look at Jesus and be like, okay, that's fine. No, he loves you even in the midst of that sin.

Yeah, Ann, I think you know how a lot of people either talk about or think about that there's the God of the Old Testament and then there's the God of the New Testament. And what I've realized in recent years is how much we miss, well, obviously he's the same God, but we miss all of the love and compassion and the tenderheartedness of God in the Old Testament. For whatever reason, people just pick out certain verses and we forget that, oh wait, God waited years and years and years. He was slow to anger before he wiped out an entire people group. And we go, oh, that's awful. But what if wiping out an entire people group actually meant sparing so many people from rape and trauma and hardship and God was protecting his people who had chosen him? Could that actually be a very loving thing? Just some food for thought there. But we see Even in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve sinned against God, we see God not shaming them, not blaming them, him saying, where are you? And came after them. And then we see the first, I think it's Genesis 3:16. It's like the John 3:16 or maybe it's 17. It's the John 3:16 of the old Testament where he's making a promise that he is going to make things right. And it says, you will bruise the heel.

Yeah, 3:15.

Yeah, 3:15. It's the prophecy of what Jesus will do. And so he's already immediately going to make things right and come after his people. And we see the grace and compassion of God there.

Something that I know a lot of people go to is like the rules of the Old Testament. And recently I heard Tim Mackey say this, that if you look at the end of Exodus, Moses is outside the tent of meeting and is not able to be inside. And then you read Leviticus and then the first chapter of Numbers, Moses is in the tent. And so what happens in Leviticus is an act of love from the Lord implementing a system where he can be in relationship with humans. And I think that we look at that and project as this like rule based frown, frustrated that we can't follow the rules when he put that in place. And obviously Jesus came to fulfill the law, right, and the prophets, but he put that in place so that he could have relationship with us. And that's an act of love, not a killjoy. I just. That has always been really helpful for me.

So as we think about, you know, this episode on theology and addictions, I think a challenge that some pastors or leaders might face is that by God's grace, addictions have not been part of their story or maybe even within their family. And so they've, they haven't had the personal experience, the upfront examples of understanding how it fleshes out in someone's life, the kind of things they're dealing with. What would you recommend, Ben? How could a pastor or church have more compassion to those who struggle with addictions like sexual behavior or pornography, even if they've never experienced any kind of addiction themselves?

One thing that we I guess, can reasonably hold on, it's that buttermilk biscuit. That gravy's so good now we have to keep it in. Now that you're explaining it, this is.

Great.

Thinking about pastoring a congregation. So much of it as you as you pastor know, is trying to empathize and have compassion with people who are going through things that you've never been through, or maybe you have and it's easier to empathize. But I'd venture to say that you're already doing a good job and good at it, or at least taking steps to do those things. I think another theme is listening to people's stories and understanding their experience. For example, understanding what the binge purge cycle is even like and asking questions and reading up on that and learning about the shame that can happen and what leads to a binge purge cycle and trying to put yourself in their shoes. I think too think about in your life. So if there's somebody dealing with addiction and they've tried everything and they keep relapsing or they're so frustrated, think about in your life the most frustrating thing you've ever been through, or maybe it was you really wanted to be a 6 foot 5 basketball player. And as a kid you were just hustling and grinding, yet you're stuck at five foot six. It's like it just whatever the most frustrating thing was, and then you can identify with that emotional experience and the pain and the frustration and perhaps that can give you a glimpse into some of the things you're going through. But ultimately going back to the definition of addiction, we all have struggled and probably do currently struggle with an addiction because it's any behavior or activity that's harmful to both yourself and others. And there's a pattern there that you keep on doing. And so think about that. Romans 7, struggle and the things you've tried to overcome that you keep on doing, perhaps that's an addiction in your own life.

I just think of the image we see so much in Scripture of a shepherd. And, you know, obviously, you know, the Lord is the good shepherd. But thinking through that, that is like, it's your flock, and there's so much language around it. And I think of someone who was a shepherd that they would know. Like, maybe, you know, the sheep has a limp, and I really have to, like, help them when we're on this type of terrain. Or I know that this grouping, you know, of sheep tends to, like, wander. And so I really gotta be vigilant to try to help them. I think so much of being a pastor, being a leader in the church, is knowing your people. Yes, it's important to know God's word. Yes, it's important that you know your own spiritual development, you know, is so key to your leadership. But if you're just a talking head from stage and not a relational human being with your congregation, then I don't think that you're going to have a ton of impact, at least in that local church. You might have tons of impact online. Like, good for you, bro. But, like, who God gives you, you know, this, the stewardship over, I feel like, is important, you know, to know these people. And that comes with knowing what they struggle with. You know, the church I was a pastor at, and I am not the standard by any means, that I'm talking about, but it just felt like what the church I was at were people on the fringes of just society. And I had not grown up that way. I had not been a part of a church like that. And I found myself frustrated. Like, I don't feel like what I'm doing is reaching people. And reflecting on my time now, I wasn't as curious as I needed to be. I wasn't as willing to explore what these people struggled with or the issues they were dealing with. I was a youth pastor, so there was just a lot of stuff that was so different about them in high school than when I was in high school. And so I feel like that is a posture as a pastor we need to adopt, is a curiosity and a compassion toward people who struggle. Yeah, I feel like that's a huge part of Shepherding God's people.

Yeah. At the same time, it's helpful for pastors to know you don't have to be an expert in addiction to help someone.

Totally.

You know, I've never once had any issues with cocaine. I couldn't even really tell you what cocaine is made from or how or where. If you offered me money to go, I wouldn't know where to find somebody. I'm totally uneducated. But I know there's a lot to be said for presents, that if someone came to me and had a lifelong battle with cocaine, to just be present with them and say, man, I'm here with you in this journey. How can I help? How can I be praying, even unpacking some of what we've talked about in this episode about their image of God and how God feels about them and helping them embrace a forgiving, loving God even in the midst of their struggle. And I may still be recommending then that they go to a rehabilitation program that has worked specifically with cocaine, the impact of it, because there's going to be knowledge there I don't have. And I think we see a lot of pastors or churches that kind of throw their hands up and, well, this sexuality stuff, it gets really messy really fast. It's too big, it's too ugly. We just don't want to go there. We're not the experts. And so instead they kind of do nothing and perpetuate an environment of silence, of shame, because nobody talks about it. Maybe I'm the only one. And the only way we help people is we send them away to the experts. And I would just suggest this really can be a both and kind of situation where we both have experts like Pure Desire or counseling teams we send people to for that real high level care, and we come alongside of them and just express, we're here with you, we care about you. You're not alone. You're not the only one. This doesn't blacklist you in our church. This doesn't make you on the outs with God or us. We're here to be the community of faith that walks alongside of you in this journey. And you don't really have to know anything about the addictive cycle. Now, I think it would help if you learned a little bit. And just like if I was in a congregation where I had routinely people coming to me struggling with cocaine, I'd probably read a couple of books on it, right? I'd probably listen to a couple of podcasts to just say, this is not my world, but man, my People are dealing with this. And this goes back to what you said, Trevor. Know your people. If you recognize that pornography and sexual addiction is happening in your congregation, or maybe you don't know, maybe you just guess it is because you've heard the stats, right? Like read a couple of books, you know, listen to some podcasts, listen to this one. Kudos to you for listening to this one. That some education is going to equip you just that much more to be a partner and a support and a friend to someone in this journey, even while you might be suggesting that they get involved with some real expert care along the way. So don't discount what you can do just because you can't do everything.

So listener, I'm sure you can tell that we believe that addiction and theology, there's connection there. That it's not something that we don't see addiction in theology and that there are in scripture and that there can't be this reconciling of the two. We believe very much that it is and we hope our conversation today, with your help, Ben, that people will walk away feeling a little bit, I think just a little bit better about their understanding of how this real life experience of addiction and their understanding of scripture can be together in the same space. So Ben, we love you man. We appreciate having you back to back episodes in the studio. I'm already used to it, so I'm to going to be sad and we go back to Zoom later. But we appreciate you man. Thanks for being with us.

Appreciate y'.

All. If you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.