357 - Healthy Separation

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 357 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo. Okay, so this episode isn't gonna come out during the tournament.

I know that's really unfortunate.

It is.

But we're recording it in the midst of the madness.

That's true. The madness is under. My bracket is destroyed. But, yeah, that is the very iconic jingle, if you will, for the March Madness.

Yeah. For decades. I mean, like, I just see the March Madness bracket, and that little ditty pops into my head. That and Jim Nance's voice, like, those are the two things that seems like, just define March Madness.

That's right. Okay, so tie it in. Good luck. I'm interested to see how you do this, but we had one of our clinicians on Eileen Fagan, and we talked to her today about what we would call a healthy separation.

Yeah. And in March Madness, it's all about the brackets and competing and teams winning and losing and the glory of the victory and the agony of defeat and all that. And I think in a lot of marriages, when there is a rupture of discovery, there's issues of addiction that have come to light. It is easy for the couple to begin to see themselves as two separate teams and begin to define things in terms of winning and losing. And, well, if I move out, she wins, or if this happens, I lose, and I don't want to lose. And we're holding on to maybe some pride or some issues, that it's really about ourselves versus coming back to seeing the marriage as a team and that we're on the same team. And as we discussed, I think really well today, we've seen ways that healthy separation, or what Eileen calls therapeutic separation, can really be a significant way for a couple to regain teamship and being on the same team versus feeling like they're just in battle or competition against one another. And so I hope for listeners that are maybe in the midst of their own story, and this is a very real conversation, that this is helpful, that it provides some perspective. And for those that maybe say, man, we're beyond that, thank God, or that's not our story, hopefully we can be informed to be helpers, because I do think it's an area that the majority of us probably feel intimidated by. We don't feel like we know a lot about. And While we may not be the ones to help someone decide about a therapeutic separation, I think we could be a voice of wisdom and support. So we hope we provided some of that today and that everyone did enjoy March Madness, whatever year's March Madness you last saw when you're listening to this episode.

Oh, my gosh. Well, we hope that the conversation today helps you see separation as a tool to be used, not as a death sentence to a marriage. So it's a great conversation with Eileen Fagan, and let's just get to it. Here's our time with Eileen on Healthy Separation. All right, Eileen Fagan, welcome back to the podcast. We're so happy to have you.

Thanks.

It's good to be here again.

We like having you. You're always just this bright, happy face that we like, and you bring, obviously, perspective from the clinical world. But we also kind of like your spunky attitude, so we'll take that. Today's topic, we wanted to kind of lean into your experience because it can be a touchy one, especially in the church. The topic of separation is one that can be more common in a therapeutic setting. We'll kind of unpack that a little bit more. But with your background as both a licensed counselor and a Pure desire clinician, we wanted to just get your take on what a separation is and what can make it a healthy thing for a couple of. And so just for the purpose of this conversation, when we say separation, what are we actually talking about?

Well, if you're talking about a therapeutic separation, that's one thing. I think the cultural definition of a separation is the idea that we're going to see if we want to stay married. A therapeutic separation is we're going to do all we can to stay married. So the goal with a therapeutic separation is always reconciliation. So that's always the goal. It may not always work out that way, but that's always the goal.

Yeah.

To me, the concept of separation is the couple needs space to make good decisions. And I think we do have the cultural idea of she kicked him out or he left and they're separated. And often when we hear that in culture or maybe about people in our circle of friends, it's an indication they're likely moving towards divorce. It seems to be like, well, once that's happened, the marriage has blown up, things have gone haywire. And I think if that's the only concept of separation someone is familiar with or that they have, they may be very fearful of this topic because it's like, man, if she's. Or he is talking about separation, it's because the marriage is over or I'm kicking them out and we're never going to reconcile. And there are, I think, a lot of options that if separation is done in certain ways, this can be, as we're going to bring up in the episode, a very healthy opportunity for a couple to engage deeper in healing than if they continue to live together. And so, yeah, I hope the episode allows us to have some of that conversation for an area that many of us, if we grew up in Christian homes, have maybe never thought about any version of separation. Even hearing Eileen say therapeutic separation, I'm sure for some listeners that was like, what. What's that big fancy word she put in front of separation? How does that work? If our only context is, like, separation as the first step to divorce, this might be really helpful to just understand some different concepts of why it might be utilized within a recovery plan.

Yeah, I think this is going to be a really good conversation and helpful for sure.

Yeah. I was just going to say, I think that people automatically think when they hear that a couple is separated, they think, oh, it's the beginning of the end. And I'm thinking of one couple that I've worked with, and I remember the spouse saying, I just needed one person to tell me that it was gonna be okay, that we were gonna make it through this. But what she heard instead is, ah, you know, this idea that it was the end, that this was just a precursor to divorce. But it doesn't have to be that way with a therapeutic separation or some people like the term healing separation, which I think puts it in better context. When you say healing separation, you think, okay, this is a separation for the purpose of healing, not to see if we wanna stay married or not.

Yeah. I've also heard phrases like planned separation or intentional separation that the idea, it's not just emotionally driven in a waiting zone before divorce, but that there's more going on behind the scenes. And so Eileen, talk about that a little bit more. I'm guessing as a counselor, a therapist, a clinician, you wouldn't recommend something if you didn't believe that it had benefits to people and that it could provide a value to their recovery. And so in your experience, when would you suggest that a couple separate for a time as part of their recovery process? And why?

Yeah, the most common reason that we would recommend a therapeutic separation, if there have been continued boundary violations, continued relapses, lack of growth, codependency to where the. There was such a fear of abandonment that they stayed in crazy because the alternative felt like death. And in those cases, it's sometimes hard to convince people that this might be something that could really heal the marriage. But yeah, I think having good boundaries and having goals, it's really helpful. And it's a serious wake up call too. When you tell somebody, maybe the best thing we can do is work on our individual stuff for a while. Sometimes that is a wake up call for a lot of couples.

Yeah, it puts the consequences more front and center to maybe one of the spouses or both the spouses involved. I've also heard it kind of referenced almost like as a reset, you're allowing emotionally and physically there to be a reset in your relationship. Which I know I've had this in my marriage. At times where it feels like we're stuck in this pattern that we cannot get out of, there's the same conversation or these same perspectives that are clashing. And I think a lot of people who are in, especially in a crisis mode that can, you know, a lot of the things that they both bring from their family of origin, their conflict resolution skills, there's so many different things at play that you can get caught into this loop and praise the Lord that we have counselors, clinicians, therapists who can help you get out of that loop. But I think what I'm hearing you say too is that that also is maybe how this tool can be used in a healthy separation is to get people out of that loop and give them a time to kind of. It's almost like a timeout. Not that there isn't work being done, that we're just sitting on our hands, but it's kind of a timeout to reset and then with, again, to what you said at the beginning, turning toward and coming back together, trying to make sure that we're benefiting the relationship long term.

Right. If people have underlying mental health issues or betrayal trauma, that's like ptsd, it's the same symptoms and addiction is certainly one of them. It's almost impossible to work on both well at the same time. So sometimes that therapeutic separation says, hey, let's work on our individual stuff, and then we can get back together and work on the coupleship. But if the individual isn't healthy and the marriage isn't healthy, sometimes the therapeutic separation is the best option.

We've talked a lot at Pure Desire, how for that betrayed spouse, recovery really has to begin by understanding the level of trauma that they're in. Because if they're in trauma, then their brain is in that Safety seeking mode. They're looking for stability, they're looking for what can I kind of ground my feet on to get a sense of well being and beginning to rebuild. And if their brain is continually in that space of feeling unsafe, of being triggered, of being in chaos, they're not going to be able to work towards rebuilding and renewing like you were saying, Eileen. And so in a couple of the situations I've been aware of where separation seemed to be a necessary part of the healing was when the presence of the addicted or struggling spouse was just a constant source of trauma for the other because it was reminding them of things or certain mannerisms or things they were doing around the home were just triggering all of those same needs for safety seeking behavior or feeling like they were in chaos, didn't know how to proceed, couldn't think straight. Well, you're not going to be able to rebuild a relationship if someone's brain is stuck in that mode. And so the idea of a healthy or intentional separation creates that zone where the betrayed spouse can begin to face some trauma, can readjust and bring that brain down to a normal level of activity so that then the interactions they have with their spouse are more appropriate and can be built around growth and not just managing the symptoms of trauma. I think of it a little bit like if someone had been traumatized by being bitten by a dog and they were trying to recover from that fear and yet the dog that bit them was still wandering around the neighborhood and it didn't bite them every time, but it didn't feel safe at all. Like you're going to have a really hard time getting over that fear when the biting dog is still right there. And I think for some spouses that's the analogy, it feels that way. It's like the source of my pain is still right here and I'm biting just so on edge of being re hurt that I can't move forward. On the other hand, there are many couples where their trauma is more about the spouse being gone or away from them and their presence in the home where they can see maybe some patterns being established, they can see firsthand what steps are being taken for them that's more comforting than traumatic. And then I would guess that for a lot of spouses, they're somewhere in between those two poles. And that's why, you know, we're trying to help someone analyze when, when might some healthy separation be appropriate. And the other thing I would mention to your point in there, Eileen, that if someone knows it's a part of Their spouse's recovery action plan that if I relapse again, I cause such a level of distress to my spouse that they're going to need some intentional time where we're living separately or in some circumstances, maybe they're in different bedrooms, but staying in the same home to create that kind of some intentional space that does become a deterrent and a wake up call to say, wow, this really impacts them to the level that if I choose that again, I'm also choosing to go live somewhere else for 30 days. And it can become really a motivator to stay in that active recovery so that my spouse doesn't feel the need to create that healthy boundary for themselves.

So obviously that's one of the benefits, is being able to see the consequences a little bit more front and center. But what are some of the other potential benefits? A couple who chooses a period of separation again, specifically in the like, recovery from sexual addiction, healing from betrayal, trauma. What benefits do they get from a healthy separation or a therapeutic separation?

Yeah, one of the main things that I've seen people say, heard people say, and seen changes in people's lives is when they say, I didn't realize how difficult it was for me to be alone. So some people go, and this is more common in Christian circles where people go from their parents to being married and they really don't know what they like, what their preferences are, how they feel they should be treated, how they want to be treated. Have probably not dealt with any kind of family of origin trauma. So that's probably the main thing is I know what it feels like to be healthy now. And the other one I think is being able to set healthy boundaries not to keep people out, but to know what feels safe to me, that this feels safe to me. So that's one of the main ones. And then I think getting closer to the Lord is another one, is people actually, if they're doing a therapeutic separation, they're seeking God. And so that's probably another. That's probably number two is that God was there for me and I learned that I could depend on him even when my spouse is struggling, that I could depend on God to be my husband. And so that's probably another one. And then that period of cooling off that we are triggering each other. And it's like that dog bite analogy you used. It was perfect. And I often use. I actually did some EMDR therapy with somebody who was bitten by a dog. And you're exactly right. It's just the presence of the dog and it wasn't that the dog had it out for them or that the dog was, you know, it was a personal attack, but just the presence. So having that time to heal, time to take some. Get some therapy, do some body work, because that's usually what it is. It's the body reacting to a perceived threat. And unfortunately, in betrayal, trauma, sexual addictions, the spouse ends up being the perceived threat. Spouse isn't the enemy, but it's the perceived threat.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're totally spot on, Eileen, that in certain Christian circles especially, we haven't done good at helping people understand enmeshment, whether emotionally or spiritually, relationally, that we don't have clear boundaries on where I end and you begin, like, identifying and defining myself outside of you in my marriage. And that can be a real hindrance to healthy recovery. And I think that can be a benefit of a healthy separation, is an opportunity to work on me. And that can be true for both couples that it. It's not just like the betrayed spouse or the traumatized one needs that space. I mean, the addicted spouse may need the same kind of work because they could be just as enmeshed that they don't really know how to understand themselves from a healthy biblical point of view, to define themselves just as God made them, without that other person in their life that they've maybe begun to make as part of their sense of who they are. And so it gives a little more space that the addict or struggler can work on what they need to work on and be all in on that and engaged on that. And the betrayed or traumatized spouse can be having that same freedom to work on them and take the steps they need to take without maybe this enmeshment of, well, what are they going to think? Or what if I do that and I'm in their way? Or it's just that mental, emotional space to do what I need to, to move towards healing. And I think particularly in situations where the relationship maybe has been defined with levels of manipulation, with coerciveness or control from one of the spouses or gaslighting type behaviors, you may believe if you're the struggling spouse or the addicted spouse that has done some of those things, you may believe, hey, I've changed and I'm not doing that anymore. But just like you were saying, Eileen, if the perception of the betrayed or hurting spouse is they're trying to control me, they're trying to manipulate my feelings, they're trying to coerce me into something, then they're always on edge. They're always playing defense, and they're not going to lean proactively into their healing. And so I. I think that's the other thing to look for is if those are kind of the characteristics that define the relationship. Manipulation, coercion and control, gaslighting. I think the healthy separation gives the two spouses opportunities to work on a new way of relating to one another without the constant daily stress of being right there in one another's space.

One of the things I've been doing a little bit of research on is individual rhythms that we have or ways that we handle certain situations. And then when two people are in the same relationship, how those two individual ways of doing life can cross over and create a brand new way of kind of engaging with each other and reacting to different things. And I think that a period of separation can help both individuals evaluate themselves with their own patterns, their own rhythms, what they need, self care, all of that. But then also when you're not in it, and we've already talked about this a number of times, but when you're not in that daily situation, you're able to take a step back and look at, that's not who I am. Why do I respond that way in those certain situations? Or why does that trigger me as much when in another situation it doesn't seem like that makes, you know, much of a difference. So I think being able to take that time away is not just evaluating us individually, but also maybe identify some of the unhealthy patterns, and they can even be unhealthy patterns that have very little to do with the addiction or betrayal. It could just be how we relate to each other or how we parent or how we handle finances or whatever it may be. And I think that that separation gives us that breathing room to evaluate.

Absolutely. And I think about when couples are doing that individual work and they learn these things about themselves, it is so important for couples to be able to share that. Say, this is what I learned in counseling today. I had this aha moment that I gaslit for so many years because I was terrified. I was terrified of being left because I was left as a kid. I was left all the time. And they were able to kind of separate those things and that their, their spouse wasn't trying to leave them, they were trying to stay in the marriage. But this, this overwhelming sense that I'm going to be left was keeping them stuck. So even in the, in the separation, the couples should be, and I know we'll get to this, but they should be getting together Regularly and talking about what. What their growth journey's been like, what are they learning? Because the recovering spouse needs to hear that and the struggling spouse needs to hear that.

Can I ask a follow up on that? In that situation, do you feel like that's something that should be guided by a professional therapist, clinician, someone like that? Or is that something a couple can engage on their own without a professional.

It absolutely should be. Should be mediated, at least by a counselor, somebody that they trust. Without that, a separation, it usually only ends up being successful probably less than 25% of the time, according to the latest statistics I've seen. Without guidance, without a plan, then it's going to end up in divorce about 75% of the time.

So, Eileen, we talked about this at the beginning of the episode a little bit, but separation as a concept is maybe unknown in a lot of churches or maybe viewed in a very negative light. Why do you think that is? And where might that negative reaction to separation be coming from for a lot of people?

Yeah, I think a lot of it is cultural, just this idea of a separation. A lot of church circles haven't heard about a therapeutic separation or a healing separation. And they might even quote Bible verses that they, you know, whoever God has joined together, let no man separate. And so they hear that and they think that this is you're just trying to get out of the marriage or you're not being faithful to your marriage vows. So I think that's part of it. I think it. And this idea that they have to stay together, and that bothers me a little bit because they don't understand about. About healing, you know, the being in a church where they don't understand addiction in particular, they might not understand that the time apart can actually enhance the marriage. It can make the marriage better.

So they came to mind, as you were saying, that was how that you can have a misunderstanding around the passage, too, of, like, not withholding your body from your spouse and that, you know, assumption that that means what it means, like, even if it's uncomfortable or unsafe for you, like, this is your duty as a spouse to offer your body to your partner. And I think that that misunderstanding is a similar kind of perspective that can be, I think, projected onto this situation, too, where it's so funny. And this is. I know that we tend to think this way, but if I say, if I quote that verse, it could be very black and white in my head. And black and white is very easy to process. It's easy to communicate, but this situation is not Black and white, it's very gray. And I think that that can often be a reaction that the church has, is this makes it a lot messier and harder to talk about, harder to measure. What does success look like? And I really don't think that that's a good enough reason to not step into a healthy separation or to evaluate our perspectives on topics like this. But I think that that's maybe a motivation that the church has, or a. If motivation is the right word, but just a perspective I think we can carry into a lot of different topics.

Sure. I also think that there's some discomfort with other people's pain, no question. So I think that can be a lot of it is. And I worked with a couple who. Bill and I worked with a couple, and there's a lot of just lack of information, kind of ignorance on this subject. One pastor told me, a spouse, well, your. Your spouse isn't. He's not doing that behavior anymore, so why aren't you having sex? And just this idea, very black and white thinking, not understanding safety or the need for feeling connected, for feeling emotionally connected and emotionally safe for the spouse. It was just very much, well, this is what you're supposed to do. So it didn't take that into consideration at all.

Yeah, there can be some theology issues, I think, undergirding it. We often quote Genesis 2. You know, for this reason, a man should leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So we think of this concept that the two are united, they're one flesh. And it may feel like, well, if they're not living under the same roof, they're no longer united or they're no longer one flesh. And we almost forget that, like, well, that's more of a metaphorical spiritual description. It may be entirely possible that in order to give the unity of the marriage the best chance to be preserved, in order to preserve oneness, the separation may be a part of that for a time, but it doesn't mean they're not still one flesh or not united just because they're not physically living under the same roof at every moment. And so I think if we allow for that viewpoint of, oh, we're actually trying to increase the oneness in that marriage, which has been totally destroyed, by the way. I mean, we're talking about healthy separation in light of betrayal over issues like pornography and affairs and stepping outside the marriage where the oneness has already been deeply fractured. And yet now we're trying to hold the spouses to Some kind of ideal of oneness to put it back together that actually could be working against them, where a separation might give them the tools needed to re. Engage in the kind of oneness and unity that I think scripture would really call us to. And another thing that comes to mind for me is just, I know in my upbringing, separation was never really talked about on its own. It was always. And separation and divorce. I mean, you read chapters in marriage books. It's dealing with separation and divorce. As a pastor, when I learned how to work with couples, it's like working with couples in separation and divorce. And we just put the two together so synonymously that I think when we hear separation, there may be that fear that rises of, oh, no, they're getting divorced. Because we just. We hear the. And even if someone didn't say it.

Yeah.

And so if we can allow a category where separation on its own might be defining a phase of someone's healing journey and a very necessary phase, then I think we could kind of readjust how we hear and react to that word separation in our church communities.

Yeah, yeah. I think of for better and for worse. Right. And it doesn't get much worse if you don't feel safe with your spouse. That's the worst. It doesn't mean that you're going to end up in divorce. It means that we need to amp up the level of care. And that doesn't necessarily mean separation. That can mean inpatient treatment, outpatient treatment. There are lots of levels of care. And so it really depends on the situation.

And that's a great transition to. The next question is, are there times you would recommend that a couple not separate, and what are factors a couple should or an individual should consider before determining if a period of separation is necessary?

Yeah. Yeah. I think if they have their safety action plan, recovery plan in place, that's the first step. If there's repeated violations of that, or the spouse is not able to stay sober for whatever reason, then we usually recommend an intensive outpatient program. And if that's not enough, we recommend an inpatient program. It really depends. And a lot of this is driven by the betrayed spouse. If she cannot feel safe, if there's been so many relapses and so many violations of her safety plan, that safety is just elusive. That's usually when we resort to the therapeutic separation.

I recall hearing from one couple where the counselor they were working with basically used separation as a standard part of their protocol. And it sounded, as they described to me, like they used it no matter what. And so in their story, neither spouse wanted to separate, but the counselor was essentially saying, like, well, unless you do, I'm not going to work with you, because this is how I work with couples. Interesting. And I think it put them in a really hard, awkward position where they're like, well, we really want help, but the only counselor we know in this area is telling us we have to separate. And I would say to anyone what I said to them, I don't think you have to separate if neither of you want to. You shouldn't do it just because someone else is telling you. Because you know your marriage, you know where your heart is at. And if you both genuinely say, I don't think that's where we're at, and I don't feel that's going to be helpful, then I think you need to remove that pressure to follow someone else's plan for your marriage. Now, I would echo exactly what you said, Eileen. This is often driven by the betrayed spouse. And I've heard too often, I've heard of situations where the betrayed spouse is asking for that space, feeling like they need it, and I think from very legitimate reasons and grounds. And yet the addicted or struggling spouse is very resistant because they're trying to say, oh, we don't need that, or you're just overreacting. And I would say to that man or woman, if you're the addicted spouse that acted out, you need to listen, you need to swallow your pride and be willing to say to your spouse, if that's what you feel it's going to take to get you to a place of safety where we can rebuild trust, then I will do whatever it takes, and I will take these steps no matter how hard they are, because it's worth it to me to try to rebuild our marriage. And I say it's sad because I've unfortunately heard in these situations where they just never were willing to separate. And in some of those circumstances, the hurting betrayed spouse ended up divorcing. Because I think, as I heard the story, it was the only way they felt they could get some freedom. They could not get away from the pain and the hurt, and they were just caught in the cycle. And because he wouldn't, I'm generalizing, it's generally he, but it could be a she. But in general, because he wouldn't be willing for a time to allow for some separation, give her the space she needed to breathe and heal and grow, it led to divorce because I think she was just looking for a way out. And you said it, Eileen. It's like it feels like death, and they don't want to die, but they don't want to stay in that much pain. And their only other option left is divorce. And so, again, if we could see that separation may actually be a valuable tool in avoiding divorce, in avoiding kind of that only escape route left to me, I think more couples would be willing to consider it and say this might actually be the very best thing to do to rebuild our marriage.

I think one of the factors that comes to mind for me is if this is a decision you're making as a couple without the advice of or perspective of a professional. And again, if your pastor is a safe person, you know, who has some understanding or some skill in this, like getting that outside perspective. Because again, if you enter into a separation without a plan or without really the support of someone who knows how this process should look, steps to take, you know, mile markers to say, okay, we're taking some, you know, we're making some progress here, like, that's. That for me, is when you would pause that conversation before you engage with a professional. Now, I know there are situations where it's like physical safety, sexual abuse is happening, any form of abuse is happening. I understand that. And I think that, you know, separation, we would say, like, you got to do what you need to do to be safe. But if there is not that present, I think that you do absolutely need to take that first step and talk to a professional. Because again, if you enter this without any, you know, it's like, honestly, it's like me opening the hood of my car and just taking things apart. It's going nowhere. I have zero idea of even what any of the things. There's an engine and a battery and there's some tubes. Like, that's all I got. And so for me, I'm just going to make things worse if I get in there and try to mess with this system. And so, again, I need someone who has that perspective. I know I'm getting so much judgment from a number of listeners. It's fine. I can take it. But I think that it's the same principle. If you don't have a professional helping you know what you're doing, I don't think it's actually going to be as beneficial as you might think.

Yeah, if you've never done it before, it wouldn't make much sense to go into it blind. I mean, there has to be a structure, there has to be a plan, there have to be goals. Otherwise, it's just a separation. It's A breather. And I've actually seen it. Don't want to sound like we're picking on the struggling spouse, but I've seen situations, too, where the struggling spouse says, I think it would be best if we took some time apart to heal because the betrayed spouse has been so damaged from the relationship. I'm going to use she that she wasn't able to focus on her own healing because she was filled with so much fear, so much resentment, so much bitterness. And that allowed her the time to seek out help for herself and help her to separate what is my stuff to own, what's my responsibility to take care of, and what is his. And so for that, it can be helpful, too.

Yeah, I think that's a great point, Eileen. There may be circumstances where the addicted or struggling spouse may be the one that suggests the need for separation. And it could be because they see they've created in the relationship so much pain, there's so much anger or yelling or like they're hardly able to be in a room without just imploding. They may need in kindness and in strength to say, I realize how deeply this has wounded you and we can't even be in the same room together right now. It might be wise for us to consider some time of separation so you can deal with what you need to. And I can keep working my recovery plan because I have heard guys in group that feel so. I mean, they're already kind of shaming themselves because all their issues have come to light. They're dealing with all the things that they hope no one would ever know about. Now they're telling them in group. And if their home situation, they're continually feeling like it's just thrown at them and they're being beat down. Beat down, beat down. I think they can have a hard time focusing on their recovery because they're like, man, I'm trying to rebuild, but I just feel like I'm constantly reminded of how much hurt I've caused. And so they're both maybe kind of stuck in some. Some turmoil there. And there may be times they even suggest, would this be good for us? I was going to add, too, just real quickly, I think a situation where we would not recommend a separation is if that's the only thing they're going to do. Like you kind of mentioned, Trevor, if you just think, well, if we'll just live separately for a while and then we'll all get better, that's actually a little bit more like burying your head in the sand and just hoping the problem Goes away for sure. And then a month of living separate, we all calm down, and now it'll be fine. Well, it might feel fine for a little while, but if nothing else has been addressed, if there's not regular group and counseling and the help of others, you're going to be right back in this situation. So don't ever think of separation as just this magic panacea that will fix things. After a month of being apart, that's not going to produce the results you're looking for.

What was that word you just used? Panacea.

Panacea.

What is that? A cure, A fix all vocabulary word for the day. All right, there you go.

It's like the cure all. And we have to be really clear on whether or not we're looking for a cure all or we're looking for an escape. It only takes one. And this is the thing about therapeutic separation. It only takes one spouse to agree to a therapeutic separation. It takes both to get back together, to agree to get back together. But it only takes one to say, I don't feel safe or this feels like we're knocking heads. The Cartman triangle comes to mind for anybody who doesn't know about what that is. If you imagine a triangle in a heated conflict doesn't have to be spouse. It could be a work conflict. But people tend to gravitate toward those three ends of the triangles. So there's the victim, the victimizer, and the rescuer. Enabler. That's my favorite. I was a. I'm a recovering enabler, so I can make everything smooth for everybody else. The way we get out of that, though, is to own our own stuff. So what's my stuff? What's our stuff? What's your stuff? So if we're staying, if we're stuck, like that situation I described where this betrayed spouse couldn't heal and wouldn't allow herself to heal, that's the responsibility, is to choose to be an adult, move out of that corner of the triangle and move toward the center where you can take accountability, responsibility, get an honest, refreshing viewpoint of what's going on.

So, Eileen, in your work as a clinician at Pure Desire, have you recommended separation to couples? And if so, what parameters did you give them as part of that recommendation?

Yeah, yeah. I can think of a handful of times that we've recommended therapeutic separation, and most of the time it has to do with the couple just not being able to have a discussion, have a conflict discussion, have a time of sobriety. So usually that's what it is. And when we recommend it, we don't just say, I think you should do this. That's not helping anybody. That's advice. And we don't give advice. We give guidance. We give help. Bill and I have a form. We have a form that delineates what a therapeutic separation would look like. It's an agreement. Talks about what we're going to do during. What are the goals. When will we know it's okay to come back? Those are all the kinds of things that, without guidance, we wouldn't know how to do it. How do we know when it's time to return?

I would assume that included in that is a period of abstinence as well. I know that obviously they're not living together, but they are still married. What kind of parameter? I'm thinking there may be people who think about that, and I know it's easy for maybe the struggler to go there first. Well, what about that? What about sex? Is that completely off the table? What kind of parameters do you have around that?

Yeah, that's one of them. What kind of touch is going to be okay? Are we going to. Is it okay to hold hands and is it okay to get together and go see a movie? You know, whatever it is, there has to be. And especially with physical. There has to be an agreement on what's going to be okay and what's not. Because. And it's not to make it sound like a legal document, but we have to cover every base and make sure that there's no loopholes. Well, you said we couldn't hold hands, but you didn't say that we couldn't have sex. Well, that's a joke.

Yeah, right.

But. But I've heard this, so. And then. Absolutely. A period of abstinence is. Is usually what the struggling spouse or the betrayed spouse is. Is needing. Is that period where. Or where she is the one to initiate any physical contact or any physical contact needs to be asked for. I'd like you to give permission before you touch my body. I'd like you to ask permission before. Before you give me a hug. So all of those things that just seemed normal or a normal part of the relationship. When there's a therapeutic separation, these kind of things have to be delineated. What is okay, what's not. Yeah.

I imagine, Eileen, that that may be different for every couple to some degree, because it depends on a person's story. I mean, you described that Cartman triangle, and I think if. If someone is stuck in being an enabler, they're probably more likely to want to be like, oh, well, it's okay, we're just going to ignore those things now. Or they want to give in to maybe some requests by the spouse and having a document where there's an agreement kind of frees them to not get stuck back into appeasing or soothing it all over. It's like, well, no, we're just going to stick to what the plan said. Whereas others that maybe move more towards the victim or victimizer might need different kind of guardrails to help them. Is that true that it. It really depends on the couple and what they're facing. Some of those different parameters.

Right, right. One couple that we worked with, when I saw her next, and this was in our private practice, she said, I asked how it was going. She said, well, we had sex. And I said, okay, that wasn't in the plan, how you had it. And she said, well, it was crying. So classic enabler. He cried. So she gave in. So we had to have a conversation about that. Is. Is this how you want it to go? And that just was a clear sign that she had some repeated boundary violations in the relationship and that the enabling is just so deeply ingrained in her that she needed to do more of that individual work. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like what you're saying is that the separation really isn't just for the struggling or addicted spouse. This is for both spouses to reevaluate really, how they engage in their marriage. And yeah, obviously not every female spouse is an enabler, But I know in the church there is a lot of that that can be pretty prevalent. We kind of talked about this, Eileen, a little bit earlier, but let's just say there's a couple who lives in an area where they don't have someone who's a professional in this arena, sexual addiction, betrayal, or a therapist. They don't really have connections to their pastor or church, and they just feel like they're on their own. How might they know they need a period of separation? And is this really something that a couple can to. Can come to on their own, or do they always need a professional?

I would say always is maybe too strong. I think, you know, if you were. If you had a scale ski accident, you wouldn't go see your pastor. You go see a doctor. So I think it really is smart to seek out the appropriate specialty. And thanks in part to Covid, there really isn't a whole lot of limitations to how we can get help in this area. Even if we live out in the boondocks or out in central Oregon, there is ways to find help. It's hard for people to. I think the harder part is actually getting the help and asking for the help. I don't think it's a matter of that the help's not available or they can't find help. It's that I'd really rather not because it's hard for a lot of people. It's hard to ask for help. But I think, to answer your question, if you can get help from the church, and the church is very well versed in addictions, betrayal, trauma, then absolutely, I think it's okay to go to the church. We've got a couple of really good churches that are very involved in helping their churches heal from unwanted sexual behavior. So in those cases, I think it would be great. But in other cases, then I think they need to seek out the appropriate kind of care.

Yeah. To the question, Trevor. A couple might be able to come to that decision on their own, but I don't think they should execute the decision on their own. So it's like your skiing illustration, Eileen. If I fall while skiing and my ankle really hurts, I may go home and try on my own for a while to ice it, limp around, try to keep off it, see if it gets better. But if after a week I'm still in pain, there comes a point I can't set the bone by myself. I need the help of a professional. And I think there are many couples that when there's discovery or when they're initially dealing with some of this, they may be trying home remedies of going to group, using some of the tools. But if they are still stuck in a place of chaos or trauma or retriggering one another and just continually feeling like we are not making progress, even though we started to take some of the steps on our own, and separation may be the next step for us to. To get some traction. Well, that's when you're getting help with the plan. You might begin to see that. But I wouldn't make the decision and try to execute it without a professional giving you some of that guidance and helping both of you. Because it's two very different pathways for a betrayed, hurting spouse and one who's been addicted and struggling. What they need to focus on and do in that time are going to be two very individualized plans. And as so often the case, especially if we're the one that has been stuck in the addictive behavior, we're not good at making our own plans. Right. Like, if we could have planned our own way out of the addiction we probably would have a long time ago. And it's our own blindness to the behaviors and patterns that has gotten us here. And if you get to that point and you're thinking, separation is good, like, man, don't just try to do that in your own wisdom. Look to a professional who's walked this road and can say, boy, here are some steps that your spouse is looking for you to take. Here are some things that we have consistently seen. Create a growth of trust, create a new way of thinking in your mind. And now you're executing someone else's plan that has been shown to lead to a repair and reconciling the marriage. Well, that's far better than just my own plan of, I'm going to figure this out. So I think that's. You might come to the decision without the help of a professional, but I wouldn't try to execute it without that professional help.

And I think that it's important to say, and almost dumb to even say it this way, but like, they're a professional for a reason. You know, you go to a doctor because they have education and experience and the tools to help you. And it's the same thing, like you talked about it, Eileen, that shame that someone might feel about telling someone. It'd be easier to not talk about it. But there's a reason why this person's a professional. They can handle that sort of information. They've done this before. They can help you through the process. And so I think that that's something that they were actually trained not to shame. I mean, it's unethical for a counselor or therapist to shame their client like you. Unbelievable. You're so dumb. How could you do. Like, that's never going to be the approach from a professional trained clinician or therapist. And if that is your experience, that person is not trained and is not professional. But just keep it down. Yeah, 100%.

So, Eileen, we've talked a lot about kind of the decision making around separation, the why behind it, the reasons, the parameters. Let's look now more at the outcomes, the positive effects that can come from a therapeutic or healthy separation. How would you describe the process you've seen where couples reengage and really find that the separation helped them rebuild their marriage? And could you maybe even give an example or two, obviously, without any details or giving away anyone's personal story, but kind of tell a story that you've seen in terms of how a separation has benefited a couple?

Yeah, one that comes to mind where it was particularly helpful was when the struggling spouse just was not able to stay sober. He was just really struggling with staying sober. And all attempts to try to do something different had failed. And it wasn't only that it had failed, had failed. It's that he wasn't doing the things, he was procrastinating on the things that he needed to do. And there was some family of origin trauma and he was procrastinating on doing that individual work. And finally the spouse said, I can't keep doing this. And so we walked them through. We drew up a document, a therapeutic separation agreement that she started and then we added some parts and got very specific on how long. And for her in particular, it was going to be a 60 day separation. I don't really recommend any less than 30. It's just not time. And 90 is ideal. Her choice was 60. And every time he relapsed, the clock would start back on day one. So for her that was what it was. And it was rocky at first. You know, I could think of one time where he said, I relapsed. What are you going to do? Set it again? Set it back to zero again with a lot of bitterness. Eventually, as she stuck to that boundary and that guideline, he got to a place where he could see that he wanted to do what he wanted to do and he felt controlled. It came very much back down to family of origin where he didn't feel like he had a voice. And so he was really rebelling against this fear of being controlled and not having a say. But it worked out once he started getting the help, realizing that if I don't do something differently, I'm not going to be married anymore. And so it really was helpful for both of them. And then she, she slowly saw his heart change and then she was able to. I think she even agreed, they both agreed to end it a little bit early because she was seeing such a hard change in him. Finally taking accountability was great.

Yeah. It's hard to see how without that separation that could have ever happened in that situation, that he would understand the consequences and finally get to the point where it's like, okay, I just got to do the work. And for then her to be able to see that softening over time. Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah. And for her it was a real step of faith to have a boundary like this because she was very more passive in the relationship and she'd go, that's okay. And then until she couldn't say that anymore. Yeah, yeah.

It gave her a Voice. I think it's really clear just from our conversation, and I hope that you've picked up on it, listener, that we don't hope for a separation. It's not something we're out to get, but we do know it can be extremely helpful, a really useful tool in this. And I also want to make sure you hear that separation is not admitting defeat. Separation is a tool that we can use from time to time in certain situations to try to bring us back together. And you talked at the top, Eileen, about calling it a healing separation. And so that idea. And so I just hope that listeners take away that if you are separated or you're considering separation, obviously use the help of a professional, whether it's a peer desire clinician, a therapist, someone trained in this area. But please do not think that this is separation, and this can be separation that leads to restoration, and that's ultimately what we hope for.

I was just gonna say, you know, we've seen repeatedly in recovery that rupture and repair is such a part of relationships that the discovery day, the addiction coming to light, whatever was found is the rupture, and the repair is. We're always on the side of repair, and in many cases, we're grateful to see God at work. And couples make it through some of the most terrible rupture stories you could imagine. But when they take the steps, and sometimes it involves a therapeutic separation, the repair is equally powerful and beautiful. It's like, that's amazing that that happened. And sometimes the repair as a couple doesn't happen. But I think if we're sincere about looking for the opportunities for the marriage to work, if they're there, they'll happen. And when it doesn't work, it's typically in the story you just described, Eileen. I could see it going the other way. If the guy just got so entitled and frustrated in fear about being controlled, he never changed and the marriage ended. Well, those stories are out there, too. And so I think separation does create that healthy space to allow couples to reengage, or the clarity of this really isn't getting any better. And it does become. There are reasons separation and divorce have gone together. But I would say to you, the listener, it's usually because one part of the other absolutely ditches the process or refuses to be open to change. And when that occurs, the marriage is, in that sense, in a lot of ways, already gone. We've done other episodes on divorce, and that's a whole nother topic. But I just think if there is this space where we're really giving our best effort to repair. That's the best chance the marriage has. And if you're in that place, consider going for it and looking at that as an opportunity to rebuild trust at a whole new level.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you're not sure, call us. Call us. A pure desire, set up a consultation. Because sometimes people aren't sure what they really need. And sometimes the evaluation is a good way to say, okay, this is the order of operations to start to heal. Heal you and heal the marriage. Sometimes we don't. For people that come in for a consultation or they. They set up a consultation, we can. We can kind of guide them toward the step of healing. And it might not always be work on the coupleship first. Sometimes it's work on yourself first. So if you're not sure, then call us. We're happy to help.

That's why we're here.

Yeah, absolutely. Eileen, we love having you on the team. We love having time with you. Thank you again for your expertise and this conversation. We really appreciate it.

You bet.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources, or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.

It.