359 - Helping Next Gen Navigate Healthy Relationships w/ Barb Winters

Hey, guys. Trevor here. Just wanted to let you know that we have something really special at the end of the episode today, if you stick around. We actually interviewed our hosts for our new podcast, Unfiltered with Ashley and Heather. And we talked to both Ashley and Heather, and you guys know them and you love them. They've been on the show a lot. We are giving them their own podcast. I know it's crazy, but whatever, it's gonna happen. So if you want to hear more about the show, just stick around at the end and you get to hear about 15 minutes of content where we talk to them about the backstory, what drove them to do the podcast, and what the show covers. And if you want any information on the upcoming launch date where it will be all that, you can just go to PureDesire.org Unfiltered all right, enjoy the episode. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. What's up, people? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 359 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Do you know the muffin, muffin man? The muffin man, the muffin man? Do you know the muffin man? He lives on Drury Lane.

Nice. Little bit different arrangement than I'm used to, but I like it.

Oh, let's hear yours, Trevor.

No, Sing it.

Take it away. Come on, man.

Listen, I did. Recently.

Listeners want to hear.

Do they?

Hey.

Okay, this real, real talk. You can email me trevoruredesire.org if you want me to sing on the podcast, you're going to need to work for it. Send me an email, tell me that you want it. If I get it. Start a movement, people. Let's go at least 10. We can make it happen. Okay, so we. Today we're joined by author and a founder of an organization called hopefulmom.net and it was Barb Winters. And we had her on to talk about her book, which is called Sexpectations Helping the Next Generation Navigate Healthy Relationships.

Yeah, and this conversation really centered around how do we, as parents, as adults, youth leaders, you know, whatever role we may have in the lives of kids, how do we create environments where kids are having healthy conversations, they're understanding sexuality from a godly point of view. And those can be difficult conversations. You know, we're comfortable thinking of our little kids as those that we sing nursery rhymes to, and we read them cute little stories before bed and. And I think as parents and I'M experiencing this now where, like, our youngest is now a middle schooler. So I don't have young little kids anymore, but in my brain, I can still think of them like little kids. And the reality is they're now moving into a very sexualized world. They're becoming young adults. They've got all kinds of, you know, my boys are growing like crazy, which means they've got all kinds of hormones in their body. And if I still think of them as like, just little kids that I'm singing nursery rhymes to, I may be blind to some of the things they're starting to face and encounter because it catches you off guard. And so there's a way in which, as parents, we need to make sure we grow with our kids and that we help them navigate the very difficult issues that are in our world today. And we don't have to be scared of that. We don't have to be fearful. And that's what I love about today's conversation. I think it will give that Barb will give parents a lot of ideas of just how do I, in very regular ways, begin to engage with my kids around some difficult topics and, and probably have conversations that I never got to have. And so it might mean growing beyond the nursery rhymes of our parenting years, but it's also creating the foundation in that relationship with our kids that helps them be resilient to the things in this world that can really undermine their future, that could destroy their lives. And we want to be a part of setting our kids up for success in their careers and relationships, but also in their personal life and how significant it is that our kids know how to navigate the sexualized world they're growing up in. So great conversation. Barb was a first time guest. We both really enjoyed her a lot and I know that the listeners will as well.

Yeah. So let's get into it. Here is our time with Barb Winters on helping the next generation navigate healthy relationships. Barb Winters, we're excited to have you with us. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for hosting me today.

Yes, yes. We got connected recently and had some back and forth on your book. Justin, go to the wide shot so people can see it. Sexpectations Helping the next generation navigate healthy relationships. And we review the book, thought it would be a great conversation to have for our listeners. And we're excited really, just to dive in, really, how to better help our kids, specifically in the area of sexuality. But as this is your first time on the show, Maybe introduce yourself, your work, your organization, what you do, just so our listeners have some context for you.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a pastor's wife and mom to four grown adult children. Now. I work as a sexual risk avoidance specialist, and that is going into local schools and helping students avoid risky behaviors and make healthy choices. I'm also a certified mental health coach. But the work I'm most passionate about is interacting with parents through speaking engagements and my website@hefulmom.net parents and grandparents and caregivers have, like, this unprecedented task of raising children in a digital world filled with pornography and online relationships. And as a parent of a recovered porn addict, I created this site that I desperately needed while I was in the trenches with my children. And so through the site, I publish regular blog posts written by myself and guests. As a matter of fact, Ashley Jamison of Pure Desire Ministries has several guest posts on the site, which is kind of fun. And you can also find, like, resources, online articles and other podcasts that I've been on through that website.

Love what you're doing and love how punchy. And this is not her first podcast that she's done that was just brief, to the point. Crushed it. Well done.

I try.

That's awesome.

Barb, we're so thankful to have you on because many of us that are on the program here at Pure Desire listeners, we grew up in kind of the what's been now called the purity culture of the church age. And there were a lot of good things about that, but also a lot of negative things, which kind of created a culture where we didn't talk about sex, other than that it was God's plan for marriage. And outside of that, it was, you know, wrong, dirty, and evil. So save it for the one you love. And the lack of conversations around sexual expectations and sexuality as a teen moving towards young adulthood was just, I think, a glaring weakness of that era. And thankfully, we're seeing resources like your book and website that are now providing some language. And so let's just kind of dive into that. Like, it's not every day that people write a book, let alone one on sexuality for young people and young adults. So what led you to start hopefulmom.net and to write this book?

Sure, absolutely. Well, it's definitely not anything I aspired to do, but my journey started when I learned that one of my sons, who was 14 at the time, had been watching pornographic. So I mentioned that my husband's a pastor, and at the time I was a homeschool mom, and we were Also planting a brand new church.

Wow.

And at the time, it just never occurred to me that our son would watch porn. So when I find out, found out, I was completely devastated. I had all the feels. I was shocked and angry and hurt and sad and guilty and ashamed and mostly lonely. I really didn't know who to tell. It's not like I could turn to my best friend over coffee and be like, hey, my son's watching porn. How about yours? That's not something we would do. Right. And I couldn't go to my brand new congregation and confide that, hey, the pastor's son has a porn problem.

Yeah.

It just didn't feel right. And there is all that stigma, et cetera.

So you don't want to embarrass him either.

No, for sure.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And even when I turned to the Internet for a place for personal help, I found none. And so I really suffered in silence. And so I was able to find help for him, but it was really more like, what about me? Because I'm also broken. And so when I started to help him and I began to research pornography and its effects, I learned how prevalent pornography is in today's world and how easily accessible it is and how many children are finding it. And so that's when this light bulb just kind of went off. I thought, well, if all these children are viewing pornography, then there's a bunch of parents out there who have children who are viewing pornography, so why aren't we talking about it? And so this was my thought and this was my prayer. And eventually God said, well, you. You go, girl. You talk about it. So after I, you know, had a little back and forth with him, I decided, okay, this is. This is what I'm going to do. And I started hopefulmom.net and one of the main objectives there is to just give parents who learn that a child is watching porn a virtual hug. Right. Because parents need to know that they're not alone. And I'm someone who can come alongside them and just say, hey, I've been there and I've lived to tell about it. And it's almost six years old now, Hopeful Mom. And over the years, the ministry has expanded and grown, and eventually that led to a book contract and sexpectations. Objective really is to help parents and leaders and educators learn how to model healthy relationships and then pass that information along to the next generation. Yeah, because many of us didn't know, you know, going into marriage and going into parenting, we didn't know what a healthy relationship really looked like, because we weren't taught that. And so I think that's why we need parent books like this. Yeah, yeah. And I specifically, in, in the context of this book, look at having a healthy, healthy relationships in the context of the sexualized culture that our children are growing up in today.

Yeah, yeah. Because that's a great segue to the next question. But I do just want to say this is what I love about how the Lord works. And it makes me think of Second Corinthians 1, where, like, when we, you know, experience pain and difficulty, God comforts us. And in that it becomes a ministry for us to help other people. So that's super cool to hear. And we definitely make sure that your book and your website are in the show notes as well.

And I just want to affirm too what you're doing because of how many parents are in that exact same position. And I don't have the stat in front of me and won't make one up on the spot. But what I do know is consistently when research is done with parents and teens, you know, and they ask the questions like, do your kids ever view pornography? And the parents who say no is always way, way higher than the kids who say no. And so there's in every research, this gap where there are a lot more kids who are regularly viewing porn, whether inadvertently or intentionally, than any parent believes. And I think part of that is our nature as parents. We raise our kids, we're with them all the time. We think we know what they do and where they go and who they're with. And we feel that sense of maybe even protectiveness. Well, I would know if my kid was doing this. And the reality is very often we don't. And so we need others that have gone before us that can help understand how those conversations happen. What might we do to create the environment in our home? I mean, all those things many parents just haven't thought about because they get stuck in that mindset of, oh, well, not my kids. And yet, statistically, there's a good chance that it is your kids. You just haven't found out yet. And when you do, I bet a lot of parents felt just like you do, Bar with all the feels and what's wrong with me and how did I miss this? And to have a resource like yours is so, so important.

And two, I think, like one of the things I know, for me, I've got a seven year old and a four year old and it's really challenging to keep up on what kind of platforms will be around when they're in their teen years, when they get, you know, I don't know, they may never have a smartphone. I haven't really decided yet. But that idea of, like, they're going to be on the Internet at some point in their life. And so obviously as a parent, that challenge can be a hurdle for not even like, engaging this, but even putting yourself in that head space that maybe my kid's struggling. So based on, like, your work, maybe research that you've done, what are some trends that you see that parents need to be aware of? And maybe kind of like another question is, what encouragement do you have for parents to be vigilant in this and what that looks like?

Yeah, yeah, great question. So what first. What first comes to mind when you ask that question is that both social media and peer pressure are huge. And I don't think we can underestimate that. And I'm in the classroom on a regular basis talking with students, and it's confirmed there that peer pressure is a big deal. And of course, you know, social media and interacting with people is, can be very positive. Can be positive. We know that totally. But I like you, I'm, you know, a little skeptical and I highly recommend that delaying it for as long as possible. But, but as far as peers are concerned, we all need friends and we as parents need to understand the effects of social media and the influence of peers in order to have these ongoing conversations with our children and help them set up healthy boundaries. So they need to have us to come to. The next thing I thought about is that I, I think parents really should know that our children are naturally curious. Yeah. And, and we've modeled that. When you're curious, you go to Google for answers. Right. That's what we've kind of done all, you know, in their growing up years. And so that's what they do when they're curious. They just go to Google for answers. And then when they type in something like, well, what is sex? Or what do breasts look like? Just because they're naturally curious, they, they find pornography or a friend shows them, or they stumble across it accidentally, it's. It's easily accessible, it's free. And the porn industry preys on children, so if they don't find it, it is going to find them. Which I think really is, you know, the disconnect with parents and what they think they know and what they think they know about their children. That's why there's that big gap. And then the last thing that I thought about, you know that our parents, you know, can, can understand is that I think that they, they really need to understand that sending and receiving nudes has become an acceptable practice and a normal first step in a romantic relationship.

So.

And that goes back to that peer pressure too. So even if someone has refused two or three or four times, they might eventually give in in order to find acceptance. And, and we're now calling that CSAM or Child sexual abuse material, which is another name for child pornography. And you know, when I'm in the classroom, I'm sure to tell students, hey, you know what, that's illegal. And you can get, it's an arrestable offense. So not only is it unethical and not biblical, but it's also illegal. So keep that in mind. So I think that really helps. I mean those are the three big things that I think parents really need to stay on top of in order, in order to navigate what's going on.

Yeah, one of the trends that I'm seeing, and I'd be curious, Barb, if you've run across this or just your thoughts on it, but my boys are 14 and 12 and they're big into a couple of video games. And the entry point that video games has become for kids to be exposed to pornography, to interact with others that are maybe introducing mature content or ideas. And I know for my boys it may not be the video game itself, it may be that the content creators on YouTube that play the video game really well, some of them are pretty good because I monitor my boy's YouTube stuff pretty closely. But there are gamers that are clearly making content for kids and are aware that if I use swear words or if I use adult content or language, I can't show up on those searches. And they want the huge following that 12, 13 year old boys can be. And so there's millions of them watching them play video games. But I'm also just aware in that avenue and from the number of guys I've had in group that have talked about video games, that sometimes those video games are portals into more explicit content and then other gamers that take advantage of that and just take people deeper and deeper in the name of the fun of a video game, it's now going into explicit or graphic content or the YouTuber who plays the video game also puts up other YouTube content that's not appropriate. And so I think just that trend for parents where we may give a lot of our kids devices at the earliest stage because of games, we want them to be entertained and have something to do when we're busy, it's kind of a built in babysitter. But that gaming industry is so quickly becoming connected to adult content and porn that we just have to be very mindful of that. I don't know if you're seeing that trend or any thoughts you have on that, Barb.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up because that is so true. The gaming really is a portal and not just like what you were referring to, but also through the messaging. So they've got the game going on, but then they have these side conversations going on. And we're seeing a lot of predators also interact with, with students that way. And we are really hit hard too about how they can lure them into trafficking through all that. In addition to. And pornography is also a lure. It all kind of is interactive or intermingled, I guess. Yeah. So that is a big deal, something we want to keep an eye on with our kids and just having those ongoing conversations and helping them see, well, what's the red fl, Right. You know, what our algorithms doing? Because they're going to take you down that trail. Yeah, kind of. What you were kind of alluding to that too. Like you watch something but then it kind of, it takes you into the next thing, you know. And if that, that YouTuber is, has more than one channel, so to speak, or more than one type of video, then it's going to lure them into the next spot.

Yeah. A quick illustration that came to mind was just the idea of if I'm going to train my kids or let my kids drive my car, it's probably good for me to know what's going on on the road that I'm aware of what it's like to drive in our city, in this space. I think it's the same approach. If you're going to allow your kids to navigate the Internet, you also need to do your research. You also need to know and obviously you have accountability software and monitoring things that you can do. But I'm not saying we need to deep dive and see what all the nooks and crannies of the Internet look like. But that idea of educating ourselves and being vigilant and that passive nature is never going to help our kids when it comes to navigating in a healthy way the world we live in.

And it's so hard because there's so much to navigate. Right. It really is a full time job. And if you also have a full time job and you have all these gifts and responsibilities, it can be a little disheartening but there is hope we can do it.

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the chat feature on games too, because it occurs to me for my 12 year old son, it's things he's heard friends say that have created good conversations for us. Because I've tried to create that environment to say, hey, if anything comes up with your friends at school that you don't know about or is confusing, you're curious, we can talk about it. You don't have to just wonder. Because I would share with him. That was part of my story and things I struggled with as a teenager. And to think about for kids in that sphere of we were thinking about their friends at school, but they may have all kinds of friends online that we don't know or even who they are. And to check in with your kids about that of like, hey, are you seeing anything on chats you don't understand? Anything inappropriate? Are there people that you've had to block? Like, let's have conversations about that because that's just like the friends at school that you can't control their home life or where those kids are from or what they're going to say, but you can create the conversations at home. And I think if we're just aware that, boy, that gaming chat room may be just as much a source of information for my kids and their sense of social networking right now that I should be checking in on that. So I, yeah, appreciate that insight, Barb. With how widespread pornography is and sexual content. I mean, we've talked about that. We lived in a very pornified world or a sexualized culture. What does pornography and a sexualized culture do to the expectations of sex for our young people or as you call it in the book, sexpectations.

Yeah, it's crazy. It's got a huge impact on what's going on in our world today. Pornography is objectifying and violent and racist. And I think that a lot of parents, especially my age, I think that the younger parents are getting to understand it a little more. But at my age I didn't understand that what our kids were seeing was crazy, worse than anything I had ever seen growing up. And in addition, many of the actors, so to speak, and I use that word loosely, are coerced into being there. And so what our children see when they're running across this is not even close to what a loving and tender and caring, compassionate relationship looks like. But they don't know that because they don't have the capacity to decipher what's biblical and what's normal and what isn't. Not only are their brains under construction, and that logical, sensible portion of their brain is not fully developed yet, but they don't have a frame of reference in which to compare what they're seeing to real life. So, for example, if I saw what our children see in these videos, I could easily just dismiss it as unrealistic because in all of my mature years and experience, I already know what sex within the confines of a loving, healthy relationship looks like. But they don't. And that's the disconnect there. And then also, you know, God created us to bond and to connect with another human being. But one of the ramifications of watching pornography is that we begin to bond with the images on the screen. And then when we do that, when we have that chemical connection with images, then we're unable to turn and connect with a real life person. And then, I mean, another fact that we are finding is that people who watch pornography actually imitate what they see on the screen. So you have guys who think it's okay to be violent with their person. They're hopefully girl, but even whatever. And then. And then girls think that they're supposed to like these violent actions. So again, that unrealistic expectation, because what they're seeing is not real life. It's not realistic. And then if you add in hookup culture, then we're in a real conundrum because, you know, when we put porn and hookup culture together, teens not only think, well, everyone's doing it, but they think everyone's doing it this way. And that's become their sex education. Yeah, that's where they're going because they want to know, well, how's this done? And they turn to pornography and this is what they see. Yeah, crazy.

Another thing too is that specifically pornography trains you that the point of sex or any sexual activity is your own personal orgasm. So it's almost teaching selfishness at a very deep level. Also, a couple of things I wrote down, just like novelty, I would say, like lots of variety, also, like frequency, it teaches you that these are things that, like, there could be a high expectation. And as those of us who've been in a marriage that try to keep our spouse safe and feel cared for know that it's just not that way. And so it sets. And it's interesting what you said too, Barb, about even young women who are watching it is they will cross lines where they feel safe because they believe it's an expectation for them, which can be extremely damaging. And Traumatizing it is.

And they think there's something wrong with me because I'm not feeling what that person theoretically felt.

This isn't sexy for me. So what's wrong with me?

Yeah, right. There's something wrong with me. Exactly.

Yeah. Well, and there's been a lot of studies and research done that a pornified culture is contributing to issues of gender dysphoria and body image issues. And like, because what's being created in pornography is totally unsustainable for most people and not realistic to how we're designed and made. And so then when it's not discussed, I think people go down that pathway of, well, maybe I'm in the wrong body or I have the wrong ideas in my head and I just need to be that kind of person. And if we don't talk about it, that's what I just keep coming back to. Your book is creating and your website is creating opportunities for conversation and for parents. We try to encourage parents. You need to have that role in helping your kids define what normal is, what is normal, what is healthy and what is good, and not just assume that that's being picked up on, especially in this area of life. That can be very private. It made me think about an illustration of kids who grew up in different parts of the world have very different definitions of what's normal for food. So if I grew up in the average American home, I eat cereal for breakfast and Mac and cheese for lunch and pizza for dinner, and that's all totally normal. But if you grew up in a remote Eskimo village and ate fish and seal and whale blubber all the time, and those two kids then crossed into each other's culture, it's like, this is not what. This isn't normal. So the brain really internalizes what's normal by whatever it is routinely exposed to. And so that's, I think, for us as parents, the danger that we need to be seeing with a sexualized culture and obviously pornography is it is creating that normal in the brain, even if we know it's not normal, but it's like you're just routinely eating the same things. And the brain goes, oh, well, this is what we do. So I'll just adjust to this normal. And the brain does adjust. But as we've also discussed, thankfully, the brain can readjust. The brain can relearn, the brain can be retrained. And that's what I'm sure your website is helping parents take some of those steps to retraining and recreating a new Normal for their children.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

So in your book, you talk about. And you even talked about it, even in the interview so far about this conversation you had with your son. And I think it's amazing that you had, you know, you should come to my house and train me and my wife on how to do it. But, like, you created this environment where your son felt comfortable. Maybe not comfortable is the right word, but knew you were a safe enough person to bring that conversation to you. So I absolutely admire that. But also, I'm thinking, for parents that are listening, what encouragements do you have to create that safe environment inside our home where if, and arguably when our kids are exposed to pornography or begin to struggle with this addiction or compulsive behavior, how do we create a safe space where they're willing to come talk to us?

Sure. Well, I mean, it took a lot of courage for him for him to come to us, and kudos to him. And he actually confessed to us twice, because the first time he confessed to us out of fear. He had a bogus warning pop up on his screen threatening him, and that's what had him come to us. The second time, when he was 16, it was because he had an intrinsic desire to walk away from this stronghold in his life. But in between those two times, we had done our best to cultivate that relationship with him. You know, we talked with him and we tried not to lecture him, and we made sure he knew that we were on his side, which I think is a big deal, because kids think that they're battling their parents, and we. We went out of our way to make sure, like, we're actually trying to help you.

We're.

We're for you. We're on your side. We love you, but it is our job to protect you also. So we're going to put up boundaries and guardrails because that's our job. Although I just can't boast that. I've always parented really, really well. So I had a lot of practice leading up to this space. So my encouragement for parents is it's never too late. Yes, kids are resilient and they're forgiving, and they want their parents to be involved. And they look up to their parents. Even when they roll their eyes and slam their door and just give one word answers, they. They still look out to us. And just the other day, my coworker and I were at middle school, and we asked students who their favorite person was. It's part of an icebreaker that we do. And many of them Actually said mom or dad. So that, that gives me a little bit of encouragement that we're not, we're not relics, you know, we're not antiques. We have a place they're listening and they really do want our input and our guidance. And then the other point of encouragement here is that it's never too late to learn new ways to interact with our children. And they're all different, so. Right. It's all trial and error. I think what they don't understand is we're doing our best too. We don't.

We're just figuring it out.

We're trying to figure it out as we go along. And as soon as we got one figured out, another one comes and they need something different. It's crazy. Right? So we're a work in progress just like they are. So we need to give ourselves a little bit of grace and we can improve as we go along. We can, we can adapt and try different things. Right. And so we have to see each one of our children as individuals with ideas and dreams and goals. Our kiddos are amazing people. They have gifts and skills and they're creative in their own way. And. And we need to nurture those, which basically means getting into their world. Right. And listening and being patient and paying attention, which is easier to do with some children than others. I mean, just saying preach. But we need to keep trying. Right. And not be afraid of the conversation. And one of the things I did and I. This is a hint that I give to most parents if I'm talking with them is just practice. I mean, it's awkward. At first I never said words like pornography and masturbation and talked about body parts. This wasn't a part of my lifestyle. But I ended up practicing. And that's one of the tips I give parents. Just look in the mirror, practice saying the words, and then go have that first awkward talk. And the more you talk, the easier it gets.

Which we can tell you by the way, with practice, you're very, very comfortable with those. Those words now.

Yeah. I so appreciate that conversation or that encouragement and just want to echo. I think God has hardwired into kids brains a level of looking to their parents for modeling behavior and defining who they are. And even in maybe very poor parenting situations, we still see it happening where a kid in an abusive relationship is still basing a lot of their value or understanding of adulthood on a parent that's abusing them. So how much more so in a good home where we're trying to make a real effort to parent well, even if the doors are being slammed or they're saying, oh, dad, why do you bring that up? We may not get the reaction we hope for, but I just have seen with my kids, like, they're watching, they're listening, they're paying attention, and it matters. And that would be my. The thing I would add is just to encourage parents, keep at it, keep making that a regular part. Like, look for opportunities just to ask your kids, hey, how are you doing in this area? And maybe they say, fine, and they have a one word answer, but that gives you the little opportunity to say, hey, I'm glad to hear that. I just want you to know I care. And if you ever need to talk, I'm here for you. And so maybe more important than the question, how are you doing? Or how can I help? Is your opportunity to just say, just a reminder that I'm here for you and I'm here to help, and let me know if anything comes up. The repeated nature of that. What I have seen happen with my kids is then that moment they say, oh, it's fine, but maybe it's a day later something might come back up, hey, this happened with a friend at school, or this came up and I was confused, or what about this? And it's because we just keep coming at it. And I think sometimes as parents, we practiced in the mirror, we got all nervous, we had a conversation, it went maybe so, so. And then we're like, whew, thank goodness we handled that. And now it's like, check. Yeah, let's check that box and not talk about it again until they're getting married or something. It's like, no, we need to keep bringing it up because honestly, the first time you're probably not going to get everything from them. They're probably testing the waters to know how safe is mom or dad, really? Do they really mean it? I don't know how much I'm ready to say, and especially if we're starting maybe a little later in their teenage years, that first time is just kind of breaking the ice. And so keep coming back and expressing your support for them.

One of the things, it's one of the teaching faculties, faculty from our pastoral sex addiction professional certification, Dr. Adrian Hickman, talked about the importance of quantity time over quality time. So even if you have this three hour incredible conversation, that doesn't mean they're going to remember it. So it's that idea, Nick, you're talking about. Like, the quantity of those conversations over time shows that I care about you and that I'm a safe person for you.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. So if a parent has had that conversation or there's been maybe some discovery that took place, they found it on the phone, they've had the conversation, they've created some healthy boundaries and guardrails. What does it look like for parents to provide ongoing support and to stay engaged with their kids? How can they do that?

Well, yeah, well, one of the things is to remain calm, which is easier said than done. And I have to admit that during the first conversation I had a little freak out moment. But you know, if we're prepared mentally and we've had those conversations ahead of time, it's easier to remain calm and we don't want to shame or we don't want to make them feel guilty. And I think also just keeping the end goal in mind so we are in it for the long haul. Right. It's not just the conversation for today. It's not a quick fix. And so when we remember that our goal is to have a healthy adult that we're launching into the world, then it's easier for us to keep going and daily check ins, which you've kind of touched on a little bit. So Nat, once if we find out there's, there's really a problem then having those discussions every single day and you know, the quantity thing. Yeah, and some lengthy conversations and some quick conversations. So we need to vary that a little bit. Possibly some sort of a program to keep them on track. So diving into some motives and some triggers, lots of open ended questions, keeping our door open, keeping our, our mindset open and being available and lots of listening and support and you know, our kids will have setbacks just like us. I think we, I do, I have expected more of my kids than I have that, than was realistic because you know, if I think back over my world and the things that I struggled over, you know, it's like two steps forward, one step back. And so being mentally prepared for that, that, yeah, there's going to be some setbacks, but they still need us to be there and encourage them and support them even when they're having rough times and try again not to shame or feel guilty or even have the mindset that there's something wrong or they're broken because I really struggled that for a little while. But our children sense if we're looking down on them. So it's one thing to be hurt or sad, it's another thing to be judgmental or critical or anger angry because we don't want to Parent from anger.

Yeah. Another. The only other thing I think I would add is just sharing our story, being vulnerable with our kids, like letting them see the humanity of Trevor at 35. I'm your dad, but I still am figuring it out. So I'm not setting him up for the expectation by the time that he's married and has two kids and has a job that he's got it figured out. And he's like, what the heck? Why am I in this place? So I think that's something I wish I would have had a little bit more of when I was a kid, specifically with my dad being able to see more of. Less Superman, more Clark Kent. Like, let's see who this is. Struggling through the world. But you talked about it. Something that my mom did really well with us. So she had four boys. She would ask our opinion on things. She would invite us into the decision making process which gave us agency and I think trained us to feel confident making decisions. And I feel like that's something that you're talking about with asking those open ended questions. It's also inviting their feedback into the conversation. Like, what do you think in this situation? What would be most helpful in this environment? That kind of thing.

Yeah, absolutely. And my son actually did that for us. When he came to us that second time when he was 16, he told us what he needed because we didn't know. I mean, we're still floundering and he's like, well, here's what I'm doing and here's how I think we can fix it and here's what I need you to do for me. And that was very helpful.

Yeah, I think too, going back to what I mentioned about our kids are programmed to watch us the more we can model health and that we are growing people and maybe we need to implement some family wide health plan of like, we don't take our cell phones into the bathroom, we don't watch TV alone in our bedroom, we don't have Internet accounts or passwords that nobody knows. We don't have a private Netflix account that no one can see it. If we're willing to model that as parents and kind of this open vulnerability of hey, if there's anything we watch that's not appropriate, we'll explain to you why we're willing to watch that. Because I've had conversations with our kids are like, oh, mom and dad are going to watch this and you can't. When they say why not? It's like, well, here's some themes that we don't think are appropriate for you yet. But we're not. We're not just blindly, you know, consuming any media and then expecting our kids to make better choices than we do. And so I think it is always an opportunity for us as parents to just say, man, how can I be on top of my game and doing what I can to be a healthy person? Because I have to as a parent. I have to live in the same sexualized culture too. And I have to make decisions about how I'm going to navigate it. And for those of us that this is part of our story, obviously we have a high level of need for our own recovery. And I've just found when I'm open about that with my boys, of hey, dad struggled with this too, or this is something dad has to be aware of. It doesn't create fear or shame for them. It creates that connection of, oh, dad is my ally in this. Dad understands how a lot of this works. And I think it increases their likelihood of coming to you because now they feel like you're kind of co laborers in this journey versus the authority figure that's going to get them in trouble for making a bad choice. And I know sometimes as parents we may have to implement consequences. We may have to create a guardrail that our kids feel like is a punishment and that's part of parenting. But the more we can find ways that they feel like, oh, they're in this with me, I think that creates those ongoing conversations.

Yeah.

One caution I would say, though, is to make sure that when we're telling our story, it's from a place of healing and not a place of hurt and still wallowing in that. Because I think especially like, if, as a mom, you know, if a mom talks with a son about something that she's struggling with, then the son will try and take that responsibility of, of trying to not hurt, hurt her or not add an extra layer, layer of guilt or shame or pain onto that. So, yes, we definitely want to talk about our how we're not perfect and mistakes that we've made from our past, but making sure that we're not still in that place where we need healing.

Yet too something too just kind of building on what we've been talking about. Helping the next generation navigate healthy relationships isn't just how to identify and address sexual addiction or unwanted compulsive behaviors. It's also what does it look like to have a healthy relationship? And in your book, you talk about four habits for healthy relationships. Can you walk through what those are and how they actually help create a healthy relationship.

Sure, absolutely.

Yeah.

And that's the deal, right? Because we don't want to just point them away from something, we want to point them to something. So understanding what healthy is. And so the four habits of healthy relationships highlighted in the book, because obviously there's more, are love and selflessness, mutuality and communication. And in the book I used First John and First Corinthians 13 as the backdrop for, for this particular section. And most, I think most Christians have learned that the foundation of healthy relationships is Christlike love, but we don't really grasp what that looks like. Like, give me something tangible. So in that first chapter, the love chapter, I do use First John to help describe what Christ is and what it looks like during monotonous days filled with stressful decisions. Because that's parenting, right? It's. And it's easy to show love when our child gets hurt, but it's not so easy to respond calmly and to respond lovingly when a child spills milk or they need a last minute ride to a basketball game, or they confess that they've been watching pornography. And loving our children really flows from when we receive love directly from God. And First John 4:19 tells us that we love because he first loved us. That's the foundation of a healthy relationship. True love, a long lasting love, originates from the love embedded within us by God himself. So that's kind of that chapter in a nutshell. The chapter on selflessness examines needs and longings that each person possesses, like love and acceptance and safety and security and belonging to. And it really motivates us to put others first. The mutuality chapter focuses on mutual respect and accountability and trust and reminding us how to set those healthy boundaries while prioritizing the relationship and persevering through hardships. So in, in the mutuality chapter, we talk about red flags and green flags in a relationship because our kids know what that that is, they know what that means. And we talk about the love languages and really helping our, our children understand that there's kind of a rhythm of give and take in a healthy relationship. It's not all one sided. You've got that back and forth and that reciprocity. And then the communication chapter covers various ways that we communicate. And we've kind of been covering some of that throughout our discussion here. And I do offer tips on communicating a little bit better and give some examples for starting ongoing conversations, especially difficult conversations about sex and pornography and what our children find online. I think one of the things with communication is that we think that it should come naturally. We should just naturally be able to communicate well. And I don't think that's true. I think it's a learned behavior. I've had to over the years really take some classes and do some research and have discussions with the Holy Spirit on what do I do in order to communicate better and well. And I still find myself having to, to say, keep your mouth shut, don't interrupt, lean forward, don't make that face. You know, things like that. So that our, that we're, we're kind of open and we're allowing for that space for our kids to be able to open up to us and trust us, really, because we want to create that culture and in that environment in which they really feel comfortable telling us anything. So those are the four healthy relations or habits of healthy relationships.

Yeah, I love what you said at the beginning there, Barb, that we don't want to just direct them away from something, but also to something. And we've talked a lot in this podcast that the opposite of addiction is connection. And if someone is struggling with a very disconnected, disembodied struggle, like pornography, it's not just avoid porn, but it's how do we help create connection in their life? And I think as parents with our kids, that's something we should be asking is how am I fostering opportunities for them to connect with me, to connect with their peers, to connect with others in our church community, to connect with other adults. Because there's been a lot of research about how significant other faith filled adults are in the life of our kids. Choosing faith for themselves is that they see it not only in mom and dad, but in some of mom and dad's friends or the people that mom and dad hang around with. And so how are we just looking to help them learn to connect and connect well, and especially as we're all now in this post Covid era, where Covid did create such a society, and in some ways our kids are still growing up in it, where connection only through virtual means is just now so normal for so many people. But that does not create the kind of connection that really fosters a healthy mindset and growth and relationships. And so we have to, I think, as parents take that proactive nature to say, how do I teach my kid about relationships? Where in the past we might have felt like, well, that's just a given. Like, you just send your kids to school and to camp and they figure out relationships. And it's like, no, a lot of kids are really, really struggling in basic relationship skills because of the world they grew up in with COVID and smartphones and all of that, where sitting across the table from another person and carrying on a conversation is not natural. And now, I mean, teenagers in general might find that awkward, but how much more so in the era we're growing up in. And so I think for us as parents to just see that and embrace it and say, man, it may be just as important in terms of helping my kids avoid pornography about how I'm helping them connect as it is what I'm doing with their devices and blockers and tracking and all that kind of stuff that can have a role. But it is like that positive side. And so I'm so thankful that your book goes into that and think everyone would benefit from wrestling through like, hey, how am I helping my kids grow in these four areas?

I think it's an important thing too, that all these things can be modeled, that we've heard the caught versus taught idea. There's a lot that is caught from our parents, from our family of origin, the idea that healthy communication, as you said, is a learned behavior. So if it's modeled, if me as a parent, if I'm modeling what healthy communication looks like, my kid's going to be set up far better than if I don't focus at all on healthy communication. I think I'll, I'll just tell him what to do and he'll do it versus like, no, watch daddy, watch mommy do this thing and also see that we do screw it up. We have to come back and apologize. But just those four things. What sticks out to me is that they're all things that can and should be modeled as parents to our kids. Because how many of us have issues as adults because of what wasn't caught from our parents?

Yeah. Yeah.

So we've talked about the book, you've mentioned the website, and we hope that our listeners will check out these resources, that they'll order the book and pop onto your website. How else could our listeners keep up to date with you, your work, and anything new that you might be putting out?

Well, the best way to keep up with me is through hopefulmom.net and subscribing there. So if you subscribe for updates at the website, in addition to getting regular interaction with me and knowing when blog sites, blogs are available, you get two free downloads. So the first one is seven steps after your child sees porn and the second one is reflection questions for the books expectations either use on your own or in a group discussion.

Great.

Yeah. I mean, I'm also on social media, so at Facebook, difficult conversations for parents. And on Instagram, difficult dot conversations. But really through the website is best.

Yeah. Where can people get your book?

So there's a link through the website or Amazon and other places. I mean, like, I think Christianbook. Is it. What's it called now? Used to be CBD, but we don't call it that anymore.

We'll just, we'll put distributors. Yeah, we'll put the links for sure in the show notes so people can grab a copy. Barb, thanks so much for the work that you do. I love, again, going back to what I said at the beginning, that this was a felt need for you. You did research. You didn't just sit on your hands, you went out and did something and now are helping so many other parents. And so we just really appreciate the work that you're doing and also for being on the show and helping our listeners, we really appreciate it.

Well, thanks so much for allowing me to be here. I admire what you guys are doing too. It's. It's noble work and we. Something that we all need to be doing together. So. So thank you.

Yeah. Amen.

You're here.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody and write us a review. If you want more information on our group's resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy. All right, Nick, you and I have been doing the podcast for how long now?

Long time.

Really.

Some would say too long. Others would say not long enough.

As you can hear from the laughter. We are.

It's over five years, right?

It is. I was trying to go somewhere else. Yes, it has been. It's been over six years, actually. And I think that we can all agree that the podcast has been a pretty effective tool. At least that's what we hear anyway. And we're actually joined. You already heard, and if you're watching this, you're seeing them. This is technically the super host group that we have here. And one of the things that these two lovely ladies, Heather Kolb and Ashley Jamison, have been pestering us and about is the idea of what if we had a Pure Desire women's podcast? What would that look like? And listen, if you don't think persistence makes a difference in life, it absolutely does. Because we've decided we are starting a brand new podcast with these ladies as the host, as the hosts. Nick, how do you feel about it? Personally, I'm Just curious, are you going.

To be adding the drum roll later? I felt like that was an announcement.

Justin. In post. In post. Justin. Yeah, please, please do that.

No, it's. It's very exciting because I'd say not only their persistence, but many of our listeners and just an understanding there is. There's different dynamics in recovery. And, you know, on our podcast, we've tried to cover those different facets, but I think particularly for women and betrayed spouses, there is a uniqueness perhaps to the intensity of the journey. And you don't, for at least a time period, don't want to veer very far out of that lane.

Yeah.

And I think we, with a women's podcast, we'll be able to stay more firmly in the kind of topics that a lot of our listeners have been asking for. And so we hope that for some it's an addendum, like they get to do both and they're excited about that. And for others, this may be their first exposure to pure desire because there's something that is meeting a unique need that they have. And so to all of those listeners, we want to welcome you and we're excited to have you jump in for this new endeavor.

So let's talk about really quick. What is. What's the show called?

The show is called Unfiltered with Ashley and Heather.

I see what we did there.

Okay.

Real talk about sex and relationships from a biblical and clinical perspective. That's the whole kind of premise of the show.

Yeah, love that.

Do we have a tagline? I feel like we need a tagline now.

That's well done.

I mean, that is probably as close to a tagline as we have, but not for show.

It's very catchy.

That's fair. Okay, so let's talk through this. We wanted to spend some time with you guys and just talk about the show and what people can expect. And I say people intentionally because we don't just want women listening to the show. This is something for both men and women, but coming from you guys perspectives. So let's start with what happened in just you guys backstory that drives your passion for doing something like this.

How much time do we have first? Well, you know, if you've heard my story enough or listened to the Pure Desire podcast, you've probably heard me talk about my experience. And I have a pretty colorful history of a little bit of everything. Addiction, betrayal, rape, teenage mom, you know, and then my own trauma story of feeling like I was trying to figure out my sexual health. And I don't want to say identity, because I do know, like, what I am. I'm a girl, but just sexual. I wanted to figure out what it looked like to have sexual integrity and still be a sexual being and still be a Christian and still have these traumas. And just what did that all look like? And. And I struggled to get answers. And the answers that I did get in church added a lot of shame. And I don't want to say that the person giving them meant to shame me, but it added a lot of shame. And also, I still never heard it coming from women. It was still always male pastors, male, male youth pastor, male leader. And I had zero Christian women that had the same beliefs that I had and were willing to talk about real struggles. And so that's why we wanted real talk in the title and we wanted unfiltered. We don't want churchy answers. We want people to say, I love Jesus and I've been there and I can help you. And so that's kind of what we want to put out there for people.

And really it's. We have a lot of common themes in our stories, but yet there is some uniqueness to even the way that we each individually process divorce and how that ended up helping and even how that continues to be part of our healing journey or eating disorders or things that seem to be more. Not necessarily unique to women, but the impact that those big life experiences have on women that tend to shape our perspective not only when we're in the midst of it, but then we end up carrying this perspective of ourselves or this woundedness or these negative beliefs about ourselves and getting to a place where, okay, we know what healing looks like. We're not perfect by any means, but we pursue healing on a regular basis. And it really is being able to speak that into women's lives right when they're in the midst of something that's super, super hard and they can't find the answers that they're looking for or an answer that even seems to resonate with them. And that's what we're hoping to provide to our audience.

There was one example from a couple of weeks ago. I'm a youth leader for 11th and 12th grade girls. And so you have your church sermon and male pastor, male youth pastor. And then the. The point of the small group time is to really wrestle with real life stuff. And so we had discussion questions and one of the girls said, oh, oh, wait, that's not really a church story. You know, in response to when have you. I think it Was said somebody had, you know, ulterior motives or something. And I. And she goes, oh, I guess I can't really share that in church. And I was like, oh, I'm new, new leader. You know, I'm like, oh, no, no, no. There's no church answers in race.

Do you think you'll still be a leader when this airs?

I'm just curious.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

All right. Just me.

This was a church from, like, five years ago. No. And I was like, there's no church answer and personal story. And I said, my guess from when I was 17 years old is you're talking about a boy that maybe had wrong intentions. She goes, yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. But. But had we not had, you know, if I didn't have that experience, I wouldn't even be able to know to draw that out of her. And I feel like that's what we want to do with women in general, is just, come on, let's do it. Let's put it on the table.

So a new podcast is exciting. What would you say inspired this podcast for you? For Pure Desire, what would you say is the driving force or the passion that is fueling this new endeavor?

I think that really the inspiration comes primarily from our experience when we would go to conferences and we would have a women's Q and A time, and we would even go into that hour session saying, this is for you. We just want to be a resource for you. And anything that you want to talk about, we'll talk about anything. We'll go there with you. And at first, a lot of times, they were hesitant, but then. And Ashley would often say, you know, well, if you don't come up with questions, then we're going to start throwing stuff out there. But the more that we talked about things that were real things, you know, like sex and orgasm and even love and disclosure, you know, whatever it was, they would. They were surprised. They were a little bit taken aback, I think, at times. But it seemed like the more questions that we answered, the more questions they asked.

Tell me a little bit more about that. What's happening in the world that you see that makes you guys see this podcast as a niche and something that we got to push into.

I think there needs to be, you know, as I tell women who call me, you're going to try to get your information from somewhere. And so what we're hoping to be is just a voice, a platform for women to come and have this be a safe place to get reliable, biblical, clinical Advice, you know, based on experience, that we've helped a lot of women. And almost all of them will say, I wish I would have had this earlier. And so, you know, I had this experience of being part of. I. You know, you're part of different Facebook groups, and this one is, like, not Christian. It's just like a normal Facebook group, and we all have a common reason why we're meeting. And somebody posted something about sex, and I was like, oh, I can help with that. And normally I don't do that, but I was like, I can help with this. And I ended up having a zoom call with a bunch of women from that group and at least 30 that wanted me to email them a list of resources on sex. And it's just women are hungry to have a place to go and talk about these things.

So it's in the tagline, and you just mentioned it there. Ashley, about the Bible psychology, how would you respond to those who push back about combining the Bible, the brain, and science? And maybe on either side, maybe some feel like, oh, I know what the Bible says. Just, you know, give me tools and new ideas. Where others feel like, well, all we need is, is what the Bible says. Why do you want that psychology in there? Why is it important that we are able to integrate these different areas of thought and belief?

I need a. I need a whole series on this one. We try to help a lot of leaders explain this to some pastors and stuff. But, I mean, I guess the simplest example that I'll tend to give is if you're. If you are struggling in an area like drugs and you go into your pastor's office, we don't just say, pray more. We offer tools. And I think what people don't understand is process addictions can have just as much of a hold on your body, and they can cause just as much damage. Betrayal trauma causes real physical damage to your body, inflammation, which leads to chronic disease. And, you know, I have a history with that. And so for me, I did try trusting God. I did read my entire Bible. I did all the things the church told me to do. And I was still a wreck and still not healing from my betrayal trauma. It wasn't until I understood that my thoughts actually do have the power to physically change my brain, to physically change things in me. And so, you know, when you hear, oh, positive thinking, positive thinking, you do need to understand that your body actually does follow what your mind does. And so it's a. Both. And. And I'll tell people in groups at the core, we get people back to their strong identity in Christ. But sometimes we need to navigate through all the ways that they've kind of lost sight of their true identity in Christ. And that can take an outside perspective to understand that so they can move back to their foundation in Christ.

Well, and I think that this just follows the foundation of, really, Dr. Ted and Diane's vision for pure desire was that it really was taking brain science and statistics and this, this is how you heal all of you, and laid over a biblical foundation.

So who's the target audience for Unfiltered?

So I think that our target audience is that we really want to help women, that we really want to give them the answers to the questions that they might have. But we totally recognize that we will likely get spouses. We will get husbands or men who say. Who say, you know what? I think my wife is struggling with this. How do you think I could best help her? And we want those questions because that still is. Even though we're going to help him with that, we're helping her as well. And so I don't want to say that it's just for women because. But it's largely for women. But if helping men helps their marriage and their relationships and just really helps to move things forward in their healing for both of them, that's what we want.

I think it will help, too, for husbands to hear things from a women's perspective. You know, I know for John, he's like, oh, it's not just my wife. That's crazy. You know, like, this is actually what's happening to betray its spouse. It really did help him to realize it's not just her overreacting, because you get in these dynamics with addiction and betrayal, and you think it's just your situation. And so for husbands, maybe that are addicts or. Or even wives that are the addicts of the betrayed husbands, it could help to hear that this is something very common that happens with betrayed spouses. This is something common that happens with women who are struggling as love or sex addicts.

So this is awesome that a brand new podcast is coming out. We're so looking forward to unfiltered. What would you say to someone who is, you know, trying to decide, am I going to become a regular listener, Am I going to subscribe, Am I going to download? Like, what would you want them to know about this podcast?

There's nothing worse than just really wanting an answer, advice from people you trust and having no way to ask it. You know, you read a book and you're like you have this one last question you wish you could ask the author. Well, this show, you can email us and we will be glad to answer questions. Unfiltereduredesire.org Nice. Nailed it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. So we are really excited for the show. We're excited for both of you guys. We love you guys. We trust you guys, and we know that you care about this area and are maybe you're not scripted very well, but you are very educated in this and we know there's a lot of benefit to it. And so if you want to keep up to date on when the podcast is coming out and some of that information, you can just go to PureDesire.org unfiltered and we are really excited to get you guys voices out there. So thank you.

Can't wait.